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US Colleges Say Hiring US Students a Bad Deal

CmdrTaco posted about 5 years ago | from the talking-to-you-cliff dept.

Education 490

theodp writes "Many US colleges and universities have notices posted on their websites informing US companies that they're tax chumps if they hire students who are US citizens. 'In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements,' advises the taxpayer-supported University of Pittsburgh (pdf) as it makes the case against hiring its own US students. You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same message is also echoed by private schools, such as John Hopkins University, Brown University, Rollins College and Loyola University Chicago."

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Posting... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29050891)

posting to undo accidental mod

Re:Posting... (2, Interesting)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 5 years ago | (#29050965)

Surely you were supposed to say "1st Post" but anyway this is definitely not a good advert for the universities in question or are they doing it to highlight the inherent discrimination in the system?

Tax Exempt? (4, Informative)

truthsearch (249536) | about 5 years ago | (#29050923)

the majority of them are exempt from Social Security

The last time I worked with people on an H1B visas, Social Security was paid.

Re:Tax Exempt? (1, Informative)

Raul654 (453029) | about 5 years ago | (#29050979)

Unless I'm mistaken, most international students have a J-1 visa, not an H1-B visa.

Re:Tax Exempt? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051267)

If you are a foreign student and graduate from the US normally you start on your F-1 (practical training for one year) and then switch to an H1B. J-1 visas are mostly for people in universities since it's for visiting scholars.

Do not take things out of context! What the document says is companies might save some money if they hire foreigners on F-1 or J-1 visas. It is just so foreigners _who_study_in_the_United_States_ can find a job since employers seem to be under the impression that hiring a foreigner is a hassle. This would not apply to foreigners that get any other kind of visas. Also, the F-1 or J-1 visas do not last forever. Once you graduate you can extend it at most one year. Once you are on an H-1 visa you have to pay social security, medicare and everything everyone pays.

Still, to actually get the H-1 visa _is_ a hassle unless the employer is a university.

Re:Tax Exempt? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051415)

No. Most students have the F-1 visa. J-1 is for "visiting scholars".

Re:Tax Exempt? (2, Insightful)

Beetle B. (516615) | about 5 years ago | (#29051491)

You're mistaken.

Most have an F-1 visa, with which they get one year of employment after graduation. During that year, they apply for an H1.

Re:Tax Exempt? (3, Informative)

robbyjo (315601) | about 5 years ago | (#29051545)

No. Most international students have F-1 visas, not J-1. Most of exchange students are on J-1.

All the proof I needed (0, Troll)

kick6 (1081615) | about 5 years ago | (#29050939)

That universities, even taxpayer-supported ones, are really out to take your money and give as little as possible in return. Out one side of the mouth: "Come apy us for a degree from here, and you'll get a great job!" Out of the other side: "Errrmmm.... don't hire our students, but we'll take your money for research!"

Re:All the proof I needed (5, Insightful)

UnknowingFool (672806) | about 5 years ago | (#29051117)

If you RTFA instead of the summary you'd see it was a very poor and biased summary. The actual article did not advocate any such position.

Re:All the proof I needed (5, Funny)

theaceoffire (1053556) | about 5 years ago | (#29051385)

If you expect me to read or understand the topic before I form an opinion, then I str...
HEY LOOK! A PENNY!

Re:All the proof I needed (5, Insightful)

dov_0 (1438253) | about 5 years ago | (#29051121)

The real reason could be this: International students pay well for their studies. If they hav work, they stay on studying to the end of their courses and can pay their fees. More importantly, they also encourage other students to come and study in the USA.

Solution? (2, Insightful)

Miros (734652) | about 5 years ago | (#29050949)

So is the right course to: change the tax code so that businesses have to pay the same taxes for international workers as for domestic workers (could reduce employment)? reduce the cost of employing domestic workers (could reduce tax revenue)? or further limit the number of work visas issued (could cause shortages of certain types of skilled labor)?

Re:Solution? (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | about 5 years ago | (#29051031)

If those are the options, it's obvious which solution is best for an economy with 10% unemployment.

Re:Solution? (1)

mitchell_pgh (536538) | about 5 years ago | (#29051123)

You mean the European Union? ;-)

Re:Solution? (1)

pacergh (882705) | about 5 years ago | (#29051497)

10% unemployment in the EU is an economic revival. 20% is smooth sailing. :-)

Re:Solution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051377)

10% unemployment sucks, but its definitely not a big deal. Let me know when it gets up to 40 or even 50%. Then we have a problem

Re:Solution? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051559)

Let me guess: you're not in the 10%, are you?

Re:Solution? (5, Funny)

Publikwerks (885730) | about 5 years ago | (#29051655)

40-50% is when people start blaming an ethnic group, put a dictator in charge, and eye Poland longingly

Re:Solution? (1)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 5 years ago | (#29051033)

Have you seen how many people with Hons Degrees are applying to McD's at the moment???

Re:Solution? (1, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | about 5 years ago | (#29051409)

Go to Ann Arbor, MI. Get served your Whopper with Cheese by someone holding a Masters in Political Science.

I am not joking, U of M town is full of high degree holders just scraping by.

Re:Solution? (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | about 5 years ago | (#29051089)

Solution: eliminate FICA for the domestic students. Better yet, eliminate FICA and Social Security altogether as taxes are nothing but a burden on a very weak economy.

Re:Solution? (5, Informative)

Useful Wheat (1488675) | about 5 years ago | (#29051185)

Did nobody actually read the linked documents? All of them are promoting hiring students from the university. They simply list what laws apply when a busness hires international students. All of them exist to clear up misconceptions people might have about hiring foreign students, so that they are not unfairly ignored in the hiring process.

For example, one question is "Does the student need a work permit to be hired" and the answer is no. The student cannot get a work permit until they have a written job offer, so any employer waiting for proof of a work permit before giving an interview is asking for the impossible.

I think Cmdrtaco should read TFA.

Re:Solution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051681)

I feel the same way after reading through 80% of my University's document and realizing that I had hardly noticed that line when I was actually looking for it. I have to say that, even then, the one sentence regarding cost of employment is a little off putting. It also seems a bit out of place seeing as throughout the rest of the document it talks about how the employer must pay 100% of the prevailing wage for the position. I hardly think this is a promotion against U.S. students, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the wording to be a little less promotional in nature.

Re:Solution? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051201)

The right solution is to overhaul the US tax system so it is no longer confiscatory.
Early 20th century the US government tool ~3% of GDP. During that time the US was quickly headed towards becoming the dominant world manufacturing power.

Fast forward to today. Government is threatening to take over 40+ to even 50+ % of GDP. This requires raising taxes. It's becoming easier and easier to find other countries that are more business friendly. The only way to stay in the US and stay profitable is to play the system.

If government policy doesn't change regarding GDP but the tax system tightens up, you'll find even more companies choosing to leave the US entirely.

A solution: fix the tax system (switch to individual income tax only collected only by the states with some % of that revenue passing from the state to the fed), reduce the government back down to sub 10% of GDP. That policy would cause a dramatic flow of business back into the US.

Re:Solution? (2, Insightful)

nschubach (922175) | about 5 years ago | (#29051457)

Or you could move to a sales tax instead, giving the consumer everything they make and letting them make the decision on which company is actually giving them a better product to spend their money on. Domestic and Foreign students all have to buy goods and services and nobody would be left out. Government would have to encourage business to keep the money coming in. Capitalism can start working again. Businesses won't have to hire teams of accountants to figure out which tax brackets every employee falls in and which deductions they need to take. I believe some people call this the flat tax... or is it the fair tax?

(Also, reducing govt. overhead so we aren't paying 50% sales tax would help.)

Re:Solution? (2, Informative)

elrous0 (869638) | about 5 years ago | (#29051307)

Universities themselves engage in all these shenanigans all the time for their own student workers. I worked several years as a high level graduate assistant and TA at a major university (making about $35,000 a year). They paid me without taking out FISA, which I knew about. What I *didn't* know about was the fact that they didn't even pay unemployment insurance on anyone listed as a student worker. So when my area closed and I lost my job, I found out that I wasn't even eligible for unemployment. The university claimed that my job wasn't a job at all--but part of my education, as if it were just another class (sure seemed like a real job to me).

Re:Solution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051483)

When I was a TA at grad school, my TA job is a 9 credit "course". Sure it took more than 9/hrs a week to grade all the papers and keep office hours, etc...

Re:Solution? (1)

ivan256 (17499) | about 5 years ago | (#29051367)

It seems to me that the right course is to encourage these people to become full citizens (instead of making it almost impossible like it is now).

Many of them want to, and are trying very hard. They're already educated and require little to no investment from us, and our country gets a skilled/educated worker that is willing to pay full taxes, work hard, and contribute to our society.

If you have a college education, we should want to make you a citizen. Quickly and easily.

Re:Solution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051401)

Has any of you read the document???

Go read it! It has nothing to do with owrking at McDonalds or with foreign workers coming from Mexico! It has to do with people who are from other countries and graduate in the United States. Plus, it is not about work visas, it is about student visas since those are the ones that have reciprocity agreements that wave the taxes.

CUT Taxes don't increase them (2, Insightful)

sadler121 (735320) | about 5 years ago | (#29051455)

Here is a radical option, drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement. Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.

Unfortunately, we are headed in the exact opposite direction with a Government take over of health care. Taxes are going to go through the roof to support all of the spending going on and the US will still not be able to reach it's obligations. Combined that with Cap and Tax [wsj.com] , and other countries are starting to look a lot better then the US, especially India and China (sense they don't have the same emissions requirements under Kyoto because they are "developing" countries)

So no, raising taxes in the middle of a recession is not the answer, We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve [wikipedia.org] and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.

Re:Solution? (2, Interesting)

quatin (1589389) | about 5 years ago | (#29051481)

International Workers are already facing enough hardship to find work. They already face a salary cap. (I think it's 75k regardless) It is also human resource intensive to sponsor a F-1/J-1 into the US as opposed to a US citizen. Universities are trying to spin a positive into hiring these students not, because it is beneficial for companies, but because it is beneficial to UNIVERSITIES. The fact is Universities charge 5-10 times the tuition rate for international students for basically the same education. To the University board that means 5x-10x more profit compared to a US student. However, if all these international students can't find any jobs after they graduate, then fewer and fewer people will be willing to shell out the excessive tuition rates just to go to a US University.

Re:Solution? (1)

Penguinoflight (517245) | about 5 years ago | (#29051669)

Limiting work visas won't cause any problems with lack of workers. At least not until unemployment drops below 20%.

brain drain (2, Insightful)

conspirator57 (1123519) | about 5 years ago | (#29050969)

i thought the US needed to encourage more and better American citizens to go to college and become scientists and engineers...

looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".

i say, "f them"

(i'm not opposed to immigration or people coming to get an education and leave, but i don't think my tax dollars should pay for these colleges to actively sabotage my kids' chances at getting a job.)

Re:brain drain (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051227)

> looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".

The job of universities is to point out reality, not fantasy. So if it truly is more expensive to hire American students, they should be saying so, just like they should be providing evidence for global warming even though there are people who would rather deny it.

Re:brain drain (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051269)

International students work harder,
not like lazy US students.

Re:brain drain (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051295)

American engineering schools are starved for quality American graduate students... if you want to get in with funding, you probably can (assuming you've put in the time at the library.. nothing's free), even if you're less qualified than much of the foreign talent. Wages are good in industry, so there's a strong pull of students out into the job force. This is a good, good thing.

Schools need graduate students to run, though. They do most of the research and handle a good fraction of the teaching load. Entry into the US job market is what draws strong foreign talent into the graduate schools to fill this role.

If you're concerned about this state of affairs, ask your elected representatives to crash the economy into another telephone pole or two, and see if your problem doesn't get fixed.

Re:brain drain (3, Interesting)

bjourne (1034822) | about 5 years ago | (#29051447)

It goes both ways (across the Atlantic). Americans come here to get cheap government subsidized university education instead of shelling out thousands of dollars in your expensive schools. Then they can quite easily get jobs because they have international experience and generally speak English very well. I really can't see how anyone is getting shafted by this arrangement.

Re:brain drain (4, Informative)

bcattwoo (737354) | about 5 years ago | (#29051541)

You need to read the links. This story is a troll. They aren't promoting international students over domestic students. They are merely giving the facts of what is involved with hiring an international students.

Re:brain drain (1)

Beetle B. (516615) | about 5 years ago | (#29051577)

i thought the US needed to encourage more and better American citizens to go to college and become scientists and engineers...

looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".

Most of these documents are from the International Offices of universities.

They're not saying "Hire foreign students instead". They're merely informing companies regarding what is involved if they do want to hire a foreign student. It's part of the job of the international office to give such information.

Don't blame the universities (5, Insightful)

spikenerd (642677) | about 5 years ago | (#29050971)

Who is the problem here? The universities who tell it like it is? Or the morons in congress who make it the way it is?

Re:Don't blame the universities (2, Insightful)

KraftDinner (1273626) | about 5 years ago | (#29051069)

What about the universities that continually lower the bar so that they can keep hitting 'record' graduation percentages?

Re:Don't blame the universities (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051103)

like the university you must have attended that failed to teach you to cite your source?

Re:Don't blame the universities (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051169)

Your capitalism is funny. :)

You used to shit on the lower/middle class citizens. Now you shit on all citizens, and for what reason? Simply because they are citizens. God bless America. :)

Re:Don't blame the universities (1)

SebaSOFT (859957) | about 5 years ago | (#29051477)

Agree,
Although, me as an "International student" that could work in the US, I don't see the US as the best place to go BECAUSE of helathcare. The Companies want you to work for chips, and if you break a leg commuting, you have to pay u$s1K+ just for the XRay

Re:Don't blame the universities (1)

Hercules Peanut (540188) | about 5 years ago | (#29051493)

Who is the problem here? The universities who tell it like it is? Or the morons in congress who make it the way it is?

Perhaps it is the morons who vote congress into office. No, wait, it couldn't be our fault. The blame must lie with someone else.

Odd, to say the least. (0)

rotide (1015173) | about 5 years ago | (#29050973)

Are these schools trying to drop their enrollment numbers? Are they trying to stop Americans from enrolling?

If colleges are actually trying to tell potential employers to _not_ hire American graduates, what incentive is there for Americans to go to their school?

Furthermore, what reason is there to keep the school in this country if they don't want to benefit American students?

Re:Odd, to say the least. (2, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about 5 years ago | (#29051017)

They get more money from out of state students than they get from local students. They get even more money from out of country students than in-country students.

They want more students alright... just more of the big-money students is all.

Re:Odd, to say the least. (2, Informative)

MBGMorden (803437) | about 5 years ago | (#29051179)

IIRC the only reason they get "more" money from out of state students is because the state funding doesn't pickup part of the tab on them. Whether the money comes from the state or the student's pocket though makes no real difference.

Also, many private colleges were on that list, and virtually no private college charges different rates for in and out of state students.

Re:Odd, to say the least. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051705)

The state (nor feds) is not paying money to the schools on a per-in-state-student basis. The school receives funding from their respective state, with requirements to get in a certain number of in-staters. The rest can be done on a perceived case-by-case basis where the school supposedly weighs the credentials (in theory, this is done with the in-staters at the same time, with the stragglers probably added from in-state at the end to meet requirements).

Keep in mind that most private colleges still receive federal tax money, especially those schools that have ROTC programs, and many others for other purposes as well (I would imagine John Hopkins is very high on that list of receivers).

It's good to see we're funding international students to come here and take jobs simply because they cost less in taxes, to take the knowledge and leave--completely using our system at the extreme expense of Americans.

Re:Odd, to say the least. (1)

Amouth (879122) | about 5 years ago | (#29051275)

sadly not the case.. for NC .. instate tuition goes to people whom have lived here (while not in college ) for 6 months in a permanent residence (showing of bills or your legal guardian showing them as proof of residence is enough).

Basically i know several people from Brazil who came up here for 1-2 years of High school - on the student visa got an apartment - and enrolled in college with instate tuition.

By now they have gotten green cards - but the didn't have that originally when they where getting instate tuition.

Re:Odd, to say the least. (1)

Beetle B. (516615) | about 5 years ago | (#29051607)

They get even more money from out of country students than in-country students.

Nope. In both public universities I went to, the fee structure did not differentiate between an out of state student and an international student.

Re:Odd, to say the least. (1)

Deag (250823) | about 5 years ago | (#29051119)

This is about hiring students while they are in college, not about graduates. Can international students even stay after they graduate?

Re:Odd, to say the least. (2, Informative)

hansraj (458504) | about 5 years ago | (#29051171)

The pdf comes from the office of international services. It lists the statement about hiring international students as being cheaper, only as an answer to "Isn't it more expensive to hire foreigners?"

Come to think of it, this is more like a specific part of the university trying to encourage companies to hire foreign students. Given that it is the office of international services that is doing so, I would think this is not surprising at all, maybe even expected. After all the whole point of such groups is to sell their foreign students. This is like each department pitching that they are the best.

The document is not saying that the companies should not be hiring americans, rather that if they are not hiring foreigners it should not be because it is more expensive to hire them; it is not.

Mountain out of a molehill if you ask me. Had I been an american, I would have ignored this story.

Lou Dobbs Dot (4, Insightful)

Deag (250823) | about 5 years ago | (#29050975)

I seem to have wandered into LouDobbsDot by accident.

These students I am sure are paying well to be attending those universities and part of that fee is towards support services for their interests.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for those services to highlight whatever advantages these students have, because they probably have a lot of disadvantages in language and local knowledge.

Re:Lou Dobbs Dot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051153)

My guess is that if you look at the entire amount given to state universities by their respective state, which is money from taxes paid by residents, an in-state student's family gives far more to a college. Personally, I stopped giving to my alma mater when they started teaching courses in outsouring/offshoring to their MBAs.

Amazing (2, Insightful)

Bartles (1198017) | about 5 years ago | (#29050985)

Who'd of thought that employers, even state agencies, change their behavior in response to tax policy. If you want employers to hire more workers, make it easier and less expensive to hire and pay.

Huh? (5, Interesting)

Guse (1283076) | about 5 years ago | (#29050987)

Oooookaaaay. It's not like the colleges are saying US students are bad. Instead, they're saying that these international students aren't as hard to hire as one might think and that there are benefits to it.

Just because I tell you that you should eat oranges because they're high in Vitamin C doesn't mean that I don't think eating apples is a good idea.

I'm impressed, though, because I've not seen a summary this reactionary and poorly constructed in a long time.

Re:Huh? (5, Informative)

UnknowingFool (672806) | about 5 years ago | (#29051081)

Agreed. The link is more of a FAQ to tell employers that international students can legally gain employment under certain conditions. They also advise employers of the tax situation and that employment must stop once the education stops. Nowhere does it advocate hiring international over U.S. students or what benefits are to using international students. While international students are exempt Social Security and Medicare it specifically says: "Unless exempted by a tax treaty, F-1 and J-1 students earning income under practical training are subject to applicable, federal, state, and local income taxes."

Re:Huh? (1, Insightful)

Maximum Prophet (716608) | about 5 years ago | (#29051093)

Clearly, you are not an apple grower that's paying a PR firm and then finds out they are using your money to get the message out about oranges.

The private Universities can do what they want, but the public taxpayer funded organizations shouldn't be saying "Hire people who pay less tax", they should be saying "Congress, change the laws to make it a level playing field"

Re:Huh? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051503)

No, its more like the apple grower is paying a PR firm who works for both apple growers and orange growers.

The international students are also paying the university, in addition to the state residents, and the university naturally will promote both groups.

Re:Huh? (0, Flamebait)

VitrosChemistryAnaly (616952) | about 5 years ago | (#29051651)

Please stop making sense and being logical!

I gots to have my FUD!

/me heads off to read Sarah Palin's facebook page.

What? (1)

cpicon92 (1157705) | about 5 years ago | (#29050999)

Why on earth would colleges do this? Am I missing something... this just doesn't make sense.

Re:What? (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 5 years ago | (#29051323)

Because they aren't doing this. CmdrTaco and theodp are just trolls who didn't even bother to read the pdfs they linked. Not a single one says to not hire U.S students or that they are bad. These are just pdfs that seek to inform people on what is needed to hire international students and to allay any misconceptions.

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051453)

yes, you are missing that many employers are gunshy about hiring foreign workers because they fear that they will run afoul of mysterious regulations.

you are also missing that the summary is intentionally inflammatory and ludicrously inaccurate.

these documents, published by offices responsible for finding their international students jobs in the US, are designed to ease employer concerns over hiring foreign workers.

the only reason this should upset someone is if they are A) racist or B) a less qualified American-born candidate who feels entitled because he/she won the birthplace lottery.

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051645)

Because they have to cut costs, ask your congressman to hike your taxes to pay for State Universities
check the budget sources of these Universities and you'll see not much of your taxes is going to them.

Sold out by companies AND universities (0, Troll)

gestalt_n_pepper (991155) | about 5 years ago | (#29051015)

In short, if you work doing something productive in the USA, you will be screwed by any and all organizations because you cost more. Will the last person left with "loyalty to country" please turn off the lights when you go?
.
Personally, I think anyone that hires executive talent in the USA is getting a bad deal. I suggest that we outsource all management to India and China where wages are low.
.
And what the heck, the management couldn't get much worse.

I am a UK citizen, but I assumed that .... (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 5 years ago | (#29051025)

I am a UK citizen, but I assumed that this would be the same in the USA:

having a Student visa only means that you are not allowed to work.
having a visa that allows you to work means that you have to pay the same National Insurance (Social Security) and Tax as citizens. The companies also have to pay the same NI contributions

I know that there are some exceptions on the tax front, double taxation allowances etc - but nothing that would affect the employer.

Re:I am a UK citizen, but I assumed that .... (1)

FluffyWithTeeth (890188) | about 5 years ago | (#29051113)

You are allowed to work on a student visa, but there are certain restrictions such as the number of hours and overtime.

May I Suggest... (0, Troll)

hyades1 (1149581) | about 5 years ago | (#29051029)

A quick message to the alumni associations of these schools might have a salutary effect on this practice. Something like, "Your alma mater recommends that you Hire UnAmerican", would probably make their next fund-raising drive somewhat interesting.

Re:May I Suggest... (1)

mcgrew (92797) | about 5 years ago | (#29051429)

Troll? Wow, I wonder whose ox got gored by that one? Would whoever modded that (or anyone who agrees with its moderation) please explain yourself?

Did you read those notes? (1)

Garbad Ropedink (1542973) | about 5 years ago | (#29051039)

I'm finding it mind bogglingly stupid to think that a university would actually tell potential employers NOT to hire their graduates. Why in the hell would anyone attend that school if it would openly sabotage their graduates?

I think what's going on here is the schools are trying to dispel myths about hiring international students. I.e. students who came from other countries to study at THEIR school. So that would be the opposite of sabotaging their graduates. This summary is extremely disingenuous.

Re:Did you read those notes? (1)

mcgrew (92797) | about 5 years ago | (#29051533)

This summary is extremely disingenuous

You must be new here...

Re:Did you read those notes? (1)

Garbad Ropedink (1542973) | about 5 years ago | (#29051657)

Cynicism aside, I expect this site to be something approaching a news source.

Misleading Title (4, Informative)

OwMyBrain (1476929) | about 5 years ago | (#29051043)

If you look at these links these are list pertaining to why companies SHOULD hire international students not reasons as to why companies should avoid domestic students.

They are simply trying to "sell" certain types of students (international) to companies by stating the benefits of hiring those types of students, thereby catering to those student's interests.

Nothing to see here.

Mod Summary Troll. (5, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | about 5 years ago | (#29051047)

Since Brown is literally up the road from me, I decided to click on Brown's PDF first, and then the others. I thought maybe there was a breaking story I could submit to the Providence Journal so they could get the whole state of Rhode Island up in arms.

The summary doesn't match the language of the PDFs in the least.

I don't have enough middle fingers for this summary. It's massive troll.

Unless exempted by a tax treaty, F-1 and J-1 students earning income under practical training are subject to
applicable federal, state, and local income taxes. Information on tax treaties may be found in Internal Revenue
Services Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens, and 901, U.S. Tax Treaties. Generally, F-1 and J-1
students are exempted from Social Security and Medicare tax requirements. However, if F-1 and J-1 students
are considered resident aliens for income tax purposes, Social Security and Medicare taxes should be
withheld. Chapter 1 of Internal Revenue Services Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens explains how to
determine the residency status of international students. More information on Social Security and Medicare
taxes can be found in Chapter 8 of Internal Revenue Services Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens and in
Section 940 of Social Security Administration Publication No. 65-008, Social Security Handbook.

Does that sound like employers can avoid taxes by hiring foreign students? I don't think so, Bob.

--
BMO

Re:Mod Summary Troll. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051159)

All of the PDF's are the same. They contain this sentence:

"In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements."

While not that strident, it definitely advocates a benefit of hiring a international student over a USA student. A 7.65% benefit that is.

Re:Mod Summary Troll. (3, Interesting)

bmo (77928) | about 5 years ago | (#29051327)

That is *taken out of context* and the wording is *may* not *will*.

There is a subtle, but important difference. The student needs to meet *all* of the requirements. And to take it as a "selling point," means ignoring the overall tone of the whole PDF, which isn't a sales brochure, but rather a FAQ.

This summary is going down the Fox News path of "news." It is needlessly inflammatory. If it was an actual "sales brochure" denigrating the hiring of Legal Residents and Citizens over foreign students, then the summary would be accurate. But it's not. Instead, it's something out of the Daily Mail or Fox.

Rupert Murdoch's reach seems to extend even to Slashdot.

--
BMO

Re:Mod Summary Troll. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051375)

What do you expect from a guy that uses AOL for his email address?

Re:Mod Summary Troll. (1)

OhHellWithIt (756826) | about 5 years ago | (#29051389)

Moreover, it's an old document. The PDF summaries of two of them I looked at say they were created in 2007, and an endnote reads:

This document was originally published in 2000 with a grant from NAFSA: Association of International Educators Region XII. 2004 revision by Laurie Cox, University of Southern California, and Co-Chair of SCICC (Southern California International Careers Consortium); co-editors: Lay Tuan Tan, California State University Fullerton, and SCICC Board member and Phil Hofer, University of La Verne.

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't remember us being in a recession in 2004.

Kneejerk reaction. (5, Insightful)

ikarous (1230832) | about 5 years ago | (#29051065)

Read the PDF that is linked in the article. At no point does it advocate hiring international students over United States citizens. The document does mention that a company can conceivably save money since the majority of these students are exempt from Medicare and FICA tax requirements. Furthermore, the document is published by the university's international services department. It is their purpose to try to get the best deal for international students.

This article is trolling. Move on.

Would you want them to lie? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051101)

The published information for the most part is accurate. The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.

In other news, there are even more significant patent law, employment law, liability, insurance cost, employment cost, and tax advantages if you relocate your business outside the U.S. The fact that this is also true is not my fault. Don't kill the messenger, reform the government that led to this mess. In an age where both jobs and companies are free to roam the world, most will settle in places where the cost/benefit ratio of local government is optimal. Unfortunately I can't think of many U.S. states that aren't economic and legal basket-cases at the moment, trying to tax and legislate themselves into oblivion. YMMV.

Re:Would you want them to lie? (2, Insightful)

Beetle B. (516615) | about 5 years ago | (#29051663)

The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.

That's misleading. If you're a tiny company, and want to hire a foreigner, there's a lot of paperwork to do. What the documents are saying is that if you hire them only temporarily (i.e. they don't need to apply for a green card and will leave in 6 years), then there is little work. But if you want to keep that employee, you need to sponsor him. And that takes money and paperwork and can be a headache compared to simply hiring an American.

Furthermore, if they hire for a job that simply requires a BS, they run the risk of the H1-B cap (FYI, if they hire a student, they apply for an H1 after hiring). Two years ago, roughly half of those who applied didn't get it. So now they lose the relatively new hire and have to go through the headache of finding another person.

Gross mischaracterization (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051107)

The title of this article says "U.S. Colleges Say Hiring U.S. Students a Bad Deal". The linked articles and PDF files do not imply that. They merely specify the procedures to hire international students in the US on an F-1 or J-1 visa. Misleading title and summary on Slashdot.

This is not possible (3, Informative)

MarkyAndy (1617517) | about 5 years ago | (#29051109)

I came into the US education system starting from undergrad to grad school as a foreign student (F and H visas), and I have NEVER heard of anything this stupid. Every employer that hired me during this process paid for all required taxes, even the university themselves when I worked on campus with my F visa.

Re:This is not possible (1)

maxume (22995) | about 5 years ago | (#29051469)

The summary is stupid, but the point is that there are fewer required taxes for some foreign students (because they are not presumed to be eligible for social security benefits in the future, they are not required to pay into the system (though it apparently depends on the precise residency status of the student)).

Re:This is not possible (1)

MarkyAndy (1617517) | about 5 years ago | (#29051631)

Also not true. On the contrary, the opposite is true. During international student orientation, we were told that by working here, we would be contributing to Social Security, but because of visa rules, unless we eventually end up with a green card or citizenship, we'd never be able to stay here long enough to reap the benefits of Social Security. So, in a way, we're actually contributing to Social Security to benefit American citizens.

Re:This is not possible (1)

mcgrew (92797) | about 5 years ago | (#29051473)

I worked on campus with my F visa

You flunked Visa? How'd you do on Mastercard?

Re:This is not possible (1)

MarkyAndy (1617517) | about 5 years ago | (#29051593)

Don't be ignorant. F visas are what most foreign students are given to enter this country as students.

Re:This is not possible (1)

Beetle B. (516615) | about 5 years ago | (#29051717)

Every employer that hired me during this process paid for all required taxes, even the university themselves when I worked on campus with my F visa.

It's not stupid. You can opt out of social security payments (and thus the company doesn't pay them) until you apply for a green card.

However, some institutions (like certain universities) simply have a policy that all employees will pay those taxes. Perhaps you always worked at one of those. Furthermore, most companies will pay by default, and you have to be the one informing them that you don't want to pay and do the paperwork. As a result, most foreigners working here pay because they don't know they can opt out.

Spin job! (2, Insightful)

akakaak (512725) | about 5 years ago | (#29051125)

Wow, great spin job!

Its a fact that FICA and Medicare often don't have to be paid for international students. This is federal law, so it's not surprising that more than one university describes the same factual situation that applies across the country. This is not under the control of the universities.

Note that, due to the various issues with visas, paperwork, etc., international students often struggle to find employment, and so its not unreasonable for universities to advocate on their behalf. Universities also typically have an entire career services group that helps all the American students, so they are hardly neglected.

It takes a fair amount of cynicism (I know, I know, its /.) to spin a university's attempt to support their international students into an attack on their American students.

If you really care about this issue, you should just aggitate against the tax law itself.

Or would you prefer to get a PhD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051157)

Part of the role of universities is to attract foreign talent. This talent is "wasted" if the students are prevented from finding work in the US and immigrating. As much as it's emphasized that the purpose of accepting these students is purely to give them training and that students are expected to return to their countries, it is well understood by all that the reason student visas are granted is to collect talent.

The pages in question are posted by the offices in charge of international students. In recent years, many more jobs require US citizenship, particularly in the fields (read engineering and the sciences) that attract the most international students. It's important for the schools to be able to sell foreign students and new graduates to American companies, because if legal red tape gets in the way, all of the benefits are lost.

If you'd prefer to shut down half of the engineering and science graduate programs in the country and hamstring Silicon Valley, then please urge your elected representative to close this immigration back door. If you're a student worried about your future, put in the library hours and ask your TA questions. If you do, you'll be fine... the foreign students TAing your courses are here to help!

Stop making stuff up (1)

solkimera (1319365) | about 5 years ago | (#29051335)

the PDF's are FAQ's on hiring international students. Why? probably because enough international students and companies asked the college what were the implications of hiring an international student. In other words, the schools are doing their job, helping students get into jobs and internships.

Can we mod this story off the main page? (5, Interesting)

DigitalReverend (901909) | about 5 years ago | (#29051363)

Seriously, I looked ad the PDF, and the languages used in the summary, is no where to be found in the provided links. I vote to mod this story off the front page. In fact, I think the "editors" should be able to be moderated.

Populist outrage on Slashdot? Sigh. (3, Insightful)

guanxi (216397) | about 5 years ago | (#29051373)

Did Lou Dobbs submit that? Please preserve /. from this nonsense; I thought this website was supposed to post "Stuff that matters". All this post offers is an outlet for outrage, self-righteousness, and ugly xenophobia -- natural human traits, but not healthy or helpful ones that we benefit from encouraging. How many people have those websites affected? Isn't there something more consequential going on, that we can put on the front page of /.?

USC (2, Informative)

mlarios (212290) | about 5 years ago | (#29051395)

BTW, USC is "one of the world's leading private research universities." It's not a public university like the others listed.

university of california "southern" ??? (2, Informative)

lytles (24756) | about 5 years ago | (#29051509)

not sure that usc belongs in that first list ...

You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same messsage is also echoed by private schools ...

What a bunch of bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29051521)

I am from Canada and I worked for 6 years in the US under an H1-B visa. Let me make this absolutely clear: I had to pay ALL THE TAXES.

There is no exemption whatsoever. My paycheck did not look any different from that of an American citizen. Yet, I will never collect any benefits from the money I contributed to Social Security and Medicare. I have worked in Europe as well and at least there I was able to redeem my contributions once I left for good. The US will not allow me to do this though. The money that I have contributed to Social Security and Medicare is gone forever and I will never see the color of it nor I will ever be able to benefit from thr contributions I have made.

Actually, this might be the solution for the budget crisis that these programs are facing in the US. Hire a bunch of foreigners, force them to contribute, and kick them out of the country so that they will never get the benefits. Problem solved.

Cheers

Troll Story (5, Informative)

burnin1965 (535071) | about 5 years ago | (#29051537)

This story should be tagged as a troll story.

First, the documents to which the article links were not written with the intention of convincing U.S. employers to hire students who are non-residents of the United States in place of students who are citizens. Non-resident students are likely no different than any other student in college and need supplemental income to pay for their education. The documents purpose is to enlighten employers about the facts about hiring non-resident students who are in the country on a student visa. Perhaps the author would like to take it one step further and see if they can incite hatred in legal aliens who are here working under a green card as these pamphlets surely must be convincing U.S. employers to hire foreign students studying under a visa in place of legal immigrant workers. Or perhaps not.

Second, if the author bothered to read IRS Publication 519 [irs.gov] , as the pamphlets suggest, they would have realized that any foreign student studying under a visa in the united states will fall under Social Security and FICA taxes if they are determined to have a substantial presence in the United States.

You will be considered a U.S. resident for tax purposes if you meet the substantial presence test for calendar year 2008. To meet this test, you must be physically present in the United States on at least:

      1.

            31 days during 2008, and
      2.

            183 days during the 3-year period that includes 2008, 2007, and 2006, counting:
                  1.

                        All the days you were present in 2008, and
                  2.

                        of the days you were present in 2007, and
                  3.

                        of the days you were present in 2006.

If a foreign student spends any more time in the U.S. than is necessary to attend school then it is likely they will fall under the substantial presence test and an employer will be required to pay Social Security and FICA taxes for the student they hired. A foreign student who is only available to work a fraction of each year is not a threat to the resident work force or the social services systems paid for by that work force.

As a member of the unemployed I understand the difficulties many people are going through but we can maintain a semblance of intelligence and become informed before making poorly researched rants.

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