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"Hidden" PayPal Fees Inciting Community Unrest

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 4 years ago | from the everyone-wants-a-cut dept.

The Almighty Buck 309

Several sites are reporting on the addition of extra fees to PayPal that are just starting to become common knowledge. While PayPal has certainly had their fair share of controversy, the new "transaction fees" that promise to affect the entire customer base are already well on their way to becoming another. "For example, a personal account sending another personal account money for a one-time payment for, say, mowing your lawn was not previously charged any fees on either side, but is now charged the usual transaction fee (the sender gets to decide who pays). The only way to avoid this is by selecting 'gift' when making the transfer — something you can't do if you're following through on a purchase or invoice from someone. And, if you fall into this category (which many people do), it's likely that you had no idea about the changes until just now."

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309 comments

speaking of paypal..... (5, Interesting)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124583)

... when is /. going to re-enable the direct credit card payment option for those who want to subscribe? I was a subscriber for the longest time until this option went away. Not everybody is willing to do business with Paypal or has the ability to do so.

Re:speaking of paypal..... (0, Troll)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124969)

I don't know the reach of eBay, but those of you who feel they are forced to deal with PayPal, you know you deserve this for dealing with them, don't you.

Still Cheaper... (4, Interesting)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124587)

...than using a credit card.

Re:Still Cheaper... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124635)

I use Paypal as a conduit for my credit card purchases.

Re:Still Cheaper... (2, Informative)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124877)

I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.

Re:Still Cheaper... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124903)

I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.

Until PayPay decides to clean out your bank account.

In which case it costs you every penny you had in it.

Re:Still Cheaper... (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125649)

Which is why you only transfer money into the account when you want to use it with paypal. Hard to clear out an account with a $0.00 balance.

Re:Still Cheaper... (3, Insightful)

Abreu (173023) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125993)

Unless your Paypal decides to overcharge and your bank charges your for overdraft fees....

Re:Still Cheaper... (3, Informative)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124933)

I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.

And your chargeback rights/protection if you get shafted by a bad seller or stupid Paypal policy.

Re:Still Cheaper... (3, Informative)

hattig (47930) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124641)

Infinitely more expensive than doing a simple free bank to bank payment online. In the UK the fees are instantly transferred as well, if you wish, even between different banks.

Of course, anything less and we'd burn down the banks after their behaviour recently, and their other charges.

Re:Still Cheaper... (1)

hack slash (1064002) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124929)

In the UK the fees are instantly transferred as well, if you wish, even between different banks.

From my experience the only time transfers are instantaneous when using online banking is when both parties are with the same bank, between different banks there's a delay.

Re:Still Cheaper... (2)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124975)

Perhaps it is simple in the UK but bank transfers aren't a common (or cheap, for the costumer anyways) way of doing business in the US.

A good example of the payment culture clash was the open pandora.

Not only in the UK (2, Interesting)

watergeus (877271) | more than 4 years ago | (#29126029)

As out of first hand experience I can say that it is like that in the Netherlands, probably in EC as a whole.
Also in Latin-America. I know this immediate transfer to another bank-account is also possible in Chile, probably in Argentina and Brazil too.

Each land has so its own little banking-tradition, as if money is not international.
For example in Chile you can not open a useful bank-account (cuenta corriente) the first year of your legal stay. Even if you own a registered Chilean Company.

Pricing strategies vary from country to country, even when you deal with the same bank.

It is still a mess, not only how they invest, but also how they deal with customers.

Re:Still Cheaper... (2, Informative)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124725)

Credit Card processing is a competitive business.

Our online credit card rates are $0.15 + 1.70% per transactions. That is much cheaper than paypal.

Re:Still Cheaper... (4, Informative)

adisakp (705706) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124733)

It's only cheaper until you have you something go wrong with a transaction. I can tell you for a fact that it's much easier to contest a problem with a standard credit card that it is to contest a paypal charge. As a buyer, I got screwed on what turned out to be faked brand-name items from someone in China with an invalid return address -- BTW, I did not plan on buying the item from China... the E-Bay auction "address" was in the US. However, the Paypal account address that I paid was registered to China which is something you might not spot right away. Paypal made me send back the package to China to try to get a refund which costs me a bunch in shipping. Then because they seller gave me a bad address, it got shipped back to me in the US. Paypal never gave me a refund because my item was "never actually returned to seller" even though the seller was at fault for giving a bad address.

Overall, I was out $100. I try to avoid both Paypal and E-Bay since this incident and only use them after exhausting all other options.

Re:Still Cheaper... (4, Informative)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124857)

Did you pay for the item using your credit card through Paypal or using your checking account? If you used your credit card you could have done a chargeback through the credit card company and bypassed Paypal's bullshit. Of course you'd lose your paypal account for doing this but that's a small price to pay to recover $100, IMHO anyway.

Re:Still Cheaper... (5, Informative)

adisakp (705706) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124947)

Did you pay for the item using your credit card through Paypal or using your checking account?

I did use a credit card. Unfortunately, I used the "Paypal"-branded credit card issued by GE Money Bank. They have in their fine print that any charge on the card through Paypal has to be resolved through paypal. They will just give you the run-around otherwise.

First thing I did after this was to tear up and cancel that card and then link my regular credit card to paypal which is a Citibank Card -- Citibank has always been *VERY* *GOOD* at dealing with any hint of fraud whether online or by phone / mail.

I'm out the $$$ but I've learned an important lesson which I can share with all of you. Don't use Paypal if you can't afford to be shafted -- and if you do use Paypal, whatever you do, don't get the Paypal Credit Card.

Re:Still Cheaper... (2, Interesting)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125049)

I did use a credit card. Unfortunately, I used the "Paypal"-branded credit card issued by GE Money Bank. They have in their fine print that any charge on the card through Paypal has to be resolved through paypal. They will just give you the run-around otherwise.

That's pretty shitty but not at all surprising coming from Paypal. I would have gotten screwed out of $800 by them if I had waited an extra day to transfer the money out of Paypal and into my checking account. Now they just refuse to do business with me until I "reimburse" them. To hell with them :)

Re:Still Cheaper... (5, Insightful)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125509)

First thing I did after this was to tear up and cancel that card and then link my regular credit card to paypal which is a Citibank Card

So wait, you got screwed by PayPal, so at the first available opportunity, you gave them your credit card details so you could continue to use their service? This kind of thing is exactly why corporations continue to screw people over - they know they can keep doing it time and time again, and people will just keep coming back for more.

Re:Still Cheaper... (0)

Attila Dimedici (1036002) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124915)

How so? When I use a credit card to make payments, it doesn't cost me anything if I pay off my bill at the end of the month.

Re:Still Cheaper... (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125045)

Merchants build the fees they pay into the items you buy... so the theory is the item costs more than if nobody took credit cards.

Re:Still Cheaper... (2, Informative)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#29126067)

The theory is inaccurate. I'm sure to some extent they do, but they also get a much better assurance that the money will be paid than they would otherwise. Checks for instance, the person cashing a bad check historically has had to pay a huge amount of money to their bank for the privilege of learning that the check was for one reason or another declined. Not to mention the added expense of processing them.

With a credit card you know ahead of time in most cases whether or not it's been declined. The worst thing tends to be charge backs, but in those cases the more or less worst case for most vendors is that they lose the cost of the item. With checks they could end up paying more than that.

On top of that, businesses that don't take credit cards have to deal with turning away customers that don't carry cash or won't pay for things in cash.

Oddly enough, PayPal manages to find a way to best both in terms of pain-in-the-assedness.

Probably just the first step (3, Insightful)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124595)

It'll be an outrage for a month, then the world will settle down. Then they'll start the membership fees.

I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now - I only ever used it because I didn't have a credit card, and I trust the guys over at Steam with my credit card number.

Re:Probably just the first step (5, Interesting)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124763)

I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now

My account was closed for me when I sold an item to someone on eBay who later claimed that he never received the item. Paypal locked my account over this dispute and claimed that I needed to provide them with a tracking number to get the block removed. I did so and then the buyer changed his story from "I never received it" to "he sent me an empty box"

In spite of the fact that his story changed once confronted with the tracking number they still sided with the him and permanently blocked my account until I "repay" them for the money they reimbursed him. If I hadn't already transferred the funds into my checking account I would have lost them and the item I was selling.

As far as I'm concerned Paypal can burn in hell.

Re:Probably just the first step (2, Interesting)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124845)

I had a bad experience with PayPal from the opposite direction. They sided with a dishonest eBay seller and facilitated him ripping me off, at which point I quickly deleted my eBay account. PayPal has many issues for sure, but this article is just "ZOMFG they're actually CHARGING me for a service!!!". Lame.

Re:Probably just the first step (4, Insightful)

BabyDuckHat (1503839) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124965)

Actually, the article is about PayPal charging more for their service without out notifying customers.

Re:Probably just the first step (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125153)

Actually, the article is about customers not bothering to read their notices from PayPal.
I mean really, what kind of idiot in this day and age doesn't scrutinize each and every piece of info they receive from a financial service they are using?
Oh right, that would be Joe Sixpack...

Re:Probably just the first step (2, Interesting)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125609)

How do you know they didn't tell the buyer to fuck off as well, and then try to just pocket the money?

Since I see just as many stories of them siding with bad sellers as I do bad buyers, I'd bet that they use any dispute as an excuse to just keep the cash.

Re:Probably just the first step (3, Interesting)

JesseMcDonald (536341) | more than 4 years ago | (#29126033)

This seems to be a common complaint, but it's hardly specific to PayPal. Merchants accepting credit cards get stuck with charge-backs all the time, and from what I can tell (from second-hand reports, anyway) the credit-card dispute resolution process isn't much better for sellers than PayPal's.

The simple fact is that PayPal has no way of knowing which side is in the right. Maybe you did send an empty box, and the apparent change in story was just a misunderstanding. After all, the buyer did consistently claim not to have received the item; perhaps they simply didn't consider an empty box worth mentioning until you brought up the tracking number. The only way to avoid this sort of issue is to have a mutually-trusted third-party mediate the transaction rather than dealing directly with the buyer/seller. Unfortunately, that's only a practical solution for relatively expensive items. For everything else, well--sellers are fewer in number, deal in higher volumes, and are generally regarded as being more capable of absorbing the cost of proving their side of the dispute, or otherwise taking the occasional loss. This isn't a great solution, but it's the best available at present.

Re:Probably just the first step (1)

tsstahl (812393) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124823)

I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now

You can't. Trust me. I 'closed' my paypal account nearly a decade ago (and twice more since) yet it still spews emails now and again over service updates and other folderol.

Re:Probably just the first step (1)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124883)

yet it still spews emails now and again over service updates and other folderol.

Sure those aren't phishing attempts? Over 90% of the e-mail that I receive "from" Paypal usually is.....

I quit using paypal a long time ago (4, Informative)

jerep (794296) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124597)

Ever since they began taking a percentage of my transactions, I stopped using Paypal whatsoever for the freelance work I do.

Paypal was nice when it began, but the more time passes the more annoyinng it becomes.

Re:I quit using paypal a long time ago (1)

genner (694963) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125149)

Ever since they began taking a percentage of my transactions, I stopped using Paypal whatsoever for the freelance work I do.

Paypal was nice when it began, but the more time passes the more annoyinng it becomes.

What do you do now?
I also do freelance work and I'm looking for a cheaper way of receiving payment.

Re:I quit using paypal a long time ago (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125847)

Take a look at EPassporte

www.epassporte.com

Re:I quit using paypal a long time ago (4, Insightful)

ottothecow (600101) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125347)

Not that I don't prefer things sans fees but do you really think it is unreasonable from them to change you a small amount for your *business* transactions?

If you want to accept credit cards, paypal is by far the easiest way to do so since you don't need to qualify for a merchant account and get set up with a card processor.

The anger here is split between the fact that they added the fees without really alerting anyone and the fact that until now their business model had always been to give people free access for personal and near-personal (small scale ebay selling etc.) and then charge fees to the business users who receive payments. People would get comfortable with using the service as a buyer (no fees) and then as a small scale seller (fees only on CC based transactions) before becoming a true revenue stream for paypal when they move a business onto paypals system. Paypal has a lot of annoying stuff going on and maybe some fees are too high (although the real fee problem lies in their parent company getting double fees since you basically have to use paypal with ebay), but I am not sure that charging a small amount for business transactions that cost them money on a site that is otherwise cost and ad free is that big of a problem.

Re:I quit using paypal a long time ago (1)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125809)

What alternative is there ? I tried to look a bit into it and while Paypal are quite sharky, what regular French banks take for a similar service should bring them before a court for extorsion. Is there another internation service that can be used in place of Paypal ?

Business Sense? (2, Insightful)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124631)

As much as I hate to think so, this might just be "good business". The company can and should push the limits of their service while still maintaining their customer base. IF one way to do that is to incrementally increase fees until they see a detrimental business impact, then why shouldn't they try it? If they overdo it, then competition will step in and offer cheaper alternatives. And if PayPal is truly being anti-competitive then there are ways to legally resolve that as well.

Re:Business Sense? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124747)

eBay, corporate overload, doesn't allow competing internet payment systems.

Mod parent up (4, Informative)

hack slash (1064002) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125019)

eBay have a stranglehold on the online payment situation, they've banned the use of Google Checkout.

Re:Mod parent up (2, Interesting)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125373)

This is the cost of doing business with eBay, and is a major reason why eBay is on the decline. The future of online auctioning and payment is decentralized and dynamic. eBay is trying to stay afloat in a medium that is losing specific gravity -- it's GOING to sink eventually.

Re:Mod parent up (5, Interesting)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125567)

Only if you explicitly say "Google Checkout", I put in my auctions That I DO NOT accept paypal but have 'my own' credit card processor. Of course all I do is send them a Google Checkout invoice via e-mail and they pay it.

I'm sure if I started selling to someone that worked for paypal/ebay I might get caught but 99.9% of people out there don't give a damn.

Buyer protection (4, Informative)

qoncept (599709) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124633)

I don't know any details, but I'd imagine you'd be waiving any of your buyer's protection rights by sending money "as a gift" instead of for a good or service.

Re:Buyer protection (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124847)

Paypal "Buyer Protection" is mostly a joke anyhow.

Re:Buyer protection (2, Funny)

hack slash (1064002) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125057)

I kinda treat PayPal like that firework that didn't go off, in that each time you make a payment you're running back to that firework to re-light it - one day it'll go off in your face, aka PayPal will burn you.

$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (4, Informative)

Lookin4Trouble (1112649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124639)

I thought this one was good, had a transaction that went sour, seller was supposedly in Orlando, FL, but ended up being in Bangkok, Thailand. Item was obviously defective, returned at my expense, with proof, and PayPal sided with me on the claim, letting me know they had the money from the other person's account before I sent it. Posted proof that it was sent, and received a credit of $0.00. Net cost to me for the nothing I now have in hand: $514.00 for initial transaction, +$78.30 to send the item back to Thailand for a grand total of me getting shafted in the amount of $592.30

I'm just fucking thrilled with PayPal right now, can't you tell?

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124787)

So isn't that mail fraud?

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (2, Informative)

Lookin4Trouble (1112649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124841)

So isn't that mail fraud?

Sure is, but since it's over international boundaries, can't get it prosecuted unless Mr. SHAHUL HAMEED ABDUL LATHIEF decides to come to the US to face prosecution...

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124945)

I'm sure guns are cheap in Thailand. I'd sort it out myself, him and his family.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (5, Interesting)

scharkalvin (72228) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124863)

The ONLY way I pay though PayPal is via my American Express card.
One time I had a problem and PayPal was zero help. So I directed my
complaint through Amex. Good old American Express came down like a ton
of bricks on PayPal and REVERSED the transfer, which got PayPals attention quick!
All of a sudden, PayPal was in my court and got the seller to fix things.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (1)

Lookin4Trouble (1112649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124889)

Yep, I got dicked over because it was a VISA card, and they could give two shits about their customers.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125401)

Yep, I got dicked over because it was a VISA card, and they could give two shits about their customers.

So, close your account. Immediately. Period.

They obviously think you're a liar, so why do ANY business with them?

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125793)

Obviously, you have the wrong Visa card. When the same thing happened to me, I called my Visa card company, and they fixed it right there and then.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (2, Insightful)

nametaken (610866) | more than 4 years ago | (#29126013)

AMX is known for being good about that. ;)

I've done the same with my bank. Called em up, said, "yup, those guys at paypal, they robbed me". It took about 10 minutes total. They took the money back and gave PayPal the finger. Problem solved.

PayPal is the disgusting shithole of online payment processing companies... really always has been.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (1)

adisakp (705706) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124881)

I have an exactly similar story. Just different dollar amount and different source country (Seller was supposed to be from Ohio but turned out to be in China). Got screwed just like you with both the price of the item and the price of return shipping :-(

Paypal sucks.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (5, Informative)

scharkalvin (72228) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125005)

You went about it all wrong.
I tried to get a seller to pay for return shipping when he sent
the wrong item (his description was wrong). When the seller wouldn't
see things my way and PayPal wouldn't help, I just told Amex I had
a complaint and wanted the charges dropped from my account. Amex did
their OWN investigation and reversed the charges on PayPal. Finally the
seller issued me a refund AND paid the cost for return of the item, at which
point I shipped it back to him. I then told Amex that the problem was fixed and
they and PayPal finalized things.
NEVER use a bank account to fund a charge with PayPal. You give up too much
clout.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (2, Informative)

loshwomp (468955) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124919)

If you pay via PayPal, always always always use a credit card when you do it. If you get screwed by a seller and PayPal doesn't make it right, call your credit card company, and most often they will reverse the charge.

If you used PayPal with the "instant transfer from your bank account" or whatever, then, well, too bad. Chalk it up as a learning experience and use your credit card next time.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (2, Informative)

Lookin4Trouble (1112649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124957)

2 replies up, I used my VISA card, and they refused to do jack-squat about it because the transaction was over international boundaries. Chargeback is a great option so long as the transaction is strictly in-country (as I initially believed this one to be), but all bets are off if the other side of the transaction is in another country.

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (1)

ottothecow (600101) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125403)

That sounds fishy as your credit card transaction was in country. The credit card's involvement with paypal starts and ends in the states--paypal completes the international transaction.

Visa is not usually very hard to talk into doing a chargeback since it has very little effect on them

Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125457)

My experience is that chargebacks are allowed if the other side is abroad off-country..

Oh yeah... (3, Interesting)

Seakip18 (1106315) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124657)

I had this problem a few weeks ago.

If I remember correctly, you have to switch to the personal tab and make sure the source is a paypal balance or a bank account

They even tell you what costs what when you send the money and click "When fees apply" link.
Here's the excerpt from Paypal:

Personal transfers to friends and family

        * Fully funded by:
        * PayPal balance
        * Bank account

        Free Free

        * Fully or partially funded with:
        * Credit card
        * Debit card
        * PayPal credit

2.9% + $0.30 per transaction
Fee is paid by the sender or recipient-sender decides.

I used my bank account to pay a friend, so it was free. Though, if it were anything more serious, I would be leery since I can't do charge back or other convenient stuff.

The writer does NOT mention that in the article what source the money came from.

Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.

Re:Oh yeah... (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124799)

Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.

Probably because there are no fees for a bank transfer - its very much like writing a check - and all the other options are basically credit cards which do have transaction fees.

Re:Oh yeah... (3, Informative)

tsstahl (812393) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124909)

Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.

Because it costs Paypal money to run your credit card. They have to pay processing/transaction fees for credit cards just like any other merchant. However, they are still making money. I guarantee that with their usage, they can negotiate CC transaction fees in the 5-15 cent range with a percentage take of 1.5-7%.

Bank and paypal accounts are 'free' because of the practices surrounding those types of transactions.

Re:Oh yeah... (1)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125039)

The trick is to have people move $ into their paypal account, before sending it to you, and not use a credit/debit card to send $ to your paypal account.

If you send paypal to paypal you're still free. I have a bank account tied to my paypal, and move money to and from Paypal via that account. I have that account tied to another account, so I can move money to and from it as needed. At any given time, there is nothing in that bank account tied to Paypal.

Yeah, it takes a little more effort, but I have some piece of mind knowing that Paypal can't take anything from me if my PP account and the Bank Account tied to it are empty.

Transfering $ to and from Paypal via bank account doesn't cost PP anything. There are all sorts of costs associated with credit cards and debit cards as well as dispute resolution processes that ding vendors who accept Credit/Debit cards.

This is a NON-ISSUE.

Re:Oh yeah... (1)

Verdatum (1257828) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125611)

You still can't go past $500/month with a personal account regardless of how you pay. After that threshold, you are charged fees.

Re:Oh yeah... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125673)

Actually, if PayPal withdraws $30 from your bank account and you only have $25, get ready for an INSUFFICIENT FUNDS charge. Happend to me once and it pissed me off because it was for $4 and the charge from the bank came to $15 or $20.

Re:Oh yeah... (1)

Verdatum (1257828) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125583)

"4.1 Personal Account Receiving Limit. If you have a Personal Account, you may not receive more than $500.00 USD per month in funds when the sender selects as the "category of purchase": (a) eBay item, (b) auction goods, or (c) goods-other. Once you have received $500.00 USD in a month, we will place subsequent payments in pending status, and you will be required to upgrade to a Premier or Business Account to accept the pending payments."

Even if it's from a bank account, if it's too much money, they charge.

Screw em (3, Interesting)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124687)

Between Ebay and Paypal fees, I can't sell anything for $10 and still break even (meaning I get nothing out of selling the merchandise). So I said screw em and now anything that needs sold goes on Craigslist.

Just More Fees (1)

siuengr (625257) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124699)

Just another fee sellers can tack on to the already inflated shipping in handling. Sure you can buy this for $5 + $15 S&H + $5 Transaction Fee. Guess it works for TicketM*ster, why not PayPal

Never mind that, it's the 100% fee that gets me. (4, Interesting)

jeffb (2.718) (1189693) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124771)

I sold an expensive (~$1800) camera package for a friend on eBay. Got an instant PayPal payment, with a confirmed shipping address, but no other communication from the buyer.

Shipped the package to the Texas address via UPS Ground. Followed the tracking info as it hit various points, and eventually made it to the destination...

...where it bounced, launching an exception that the "recipient had moved", and that it was being "redirected to the new address". An address which happened to be within 50 miles of my own address. The "buyer" continued to ignore emails.

Called up PayPal, explained that I'd shipped the package to a confirmed address. They said, "Yes, you should be covered under Seller Protection." I then explained that it had been bounced to an unconfirmed address, without any action or agreement on my part. "Oh," they said. "If you can't provide proof that the package has been delivered to a confirmed address, you aren't protected."

"So," I ask, "you mean that I can send a package using your approved shipper, with your approved tracking, to an address that you've confirmed -- and if the "recipient" redirects the shipment somewhere else, they can then claim that they never received the package, and I'll lose my payment with no recourse?"

"Well, I'm afraid so."

"So I guess I'd better recall the shipment and eat the shipping fee." "Yes, if I were you, that's what I'd do."

And that's why my eBay/PayPal annual sales volume has gone from five figures to one figure (0).

Re:Never mind that, it's the 100% fee that gets me (3, Insightful)

Renraku (518261) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125147)

One PayPal and eBay got together, eBay was already on the way out the door. Everyone had already found out that there just MIGHT be someone out there willing to pay $50 for a $10 pair of speakers, and that it MIGHT be pretty trivial to scam people out of money for a living. 80% or more of eBay is totally worthless to most people due to this.

So now what you have now is a company that makes its money from transactions, and settling a dispute wastes more time than its worth. For every scammed item or payment, there's one side that's unhappy, and one side that's happy. For a net gain of 0%. One person stops using it, the other person continues using it. All they have to do is maintain a decent user base and they'll be around for a while.

Of course, like most companies, they aren't looking to the future at all. They aren't trying to change things to sustain their business.

Re:Never mind that, it's the 100% fee that gets me (2, Interesting)

aero6dof (415422) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125839)

Of course, like most companies, they aren't looking to the future at all. They aren't trying to change things to sustain their business.

This is what makes me laugh when you hear about eBay's CEO thinking of a run for CA governor and the blurbs introducing the candidate as CEO fortune whatever company eBay... Of course, that prolly guarantees she'll be our next governor.

Who were you shipping with? (1)

phorm (591458) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125219)

I know a lot of shipping companies won't let you change the shipping address without sender authorization. I've run into this with packages which I once had to get redirected to my work address. I was able to get the destination address updated, but it required authorization from the shipper first.

Nothing "Hidden" Here (2, Informative)

yakatz (1176317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124777)

Every Paypal customer received an email that says that there are updates to the terms of service. If you could not be bothered to read it, that is your problem.
I use a webservice that mointers the TOSs of companies whos' services I use to be alerted to changes.
You can easily use TOSBack.org to do this for many companies.

I don't think I got that email (5, Funny)

dangle (1381879) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125231)

I found my notice from PayPal on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying
"Beware of the Leopard."

they must charge (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124785)

Financial transactions always have cost, because there's always a chance of something going wrong and some expensive legal procedure following. Also, they must obviously pay for their operations. I don't understand how someone could expect a financial transaction service to be free.

Re:they must charge (3, Insightful)

vertinox (846076) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125109)

Also, they must obviously pay for their operations. I don't understand how someone could expect a financial transaction service to be free.

It shouldn't be free as much as it should be cheaper.

There is no point to micro-transactions anymore with Pay-Pal because of the fees and people are too afraid of their revocations without recourse to sell expensive items through them.

Sadly there is no alternative for ebay these days so people have stopped using it.

Re:they must charge (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125139)

I agree that for there finacial transactions involving credit/debit cards there should be a fee.

But for transactions from paypal accounts with funds in the black to any other account there should be no fee.

Eg. If person A has 100 credits in his account and wishes to send 10 credits to person B. For this scenario there should be no fee because nothing finical has happened. At the begining paypal's bank account had 100 credits and at the end it still had 100. The only thing that actually happens is paypal has tweaked their database to show that person A has 90 and person B has 10 credits.

So paypal are making a killing by charging a fortune for doing slightly more than nothing. Bastards!!!

tag 'republicans' (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124797)


Tag this 'republicans' because you just know that when big biz steals money, they have the tacit approval of the republicans!

Old News: ArsTechnica & Slashdot are Behind... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29124859)

This was on the frontpage of Digg yesterday with 3000+ diggs:

http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/08/19/paypal-doubles-fee

Nothing new here... move along

Re:Old News: ArsTechnica & Slashdot are Behind (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29124943)

Because Slashdot is digg?

P.S. Just because something happened yesterday doesn't mean it's not news, yeesh the internet generation wants to know everything the second it happens.

Transferring money (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29125087)

I once ordered concert tickets online for a friend [400 miles away] whose credit card wasn't working, and when they showed up at my apartment, I Priority Mailed them to him. To reimburse me, he sent me a Western Union money order for the amount owed. Cheaper than PayPal. :-)

Simple... (1)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125099)

Close all paypal accounts, and use mostly kijiji for my ads, and use ebay less then likely unless item is really something i need...then I use credit card on paypal..

unlicensed (4, Insightful)

lophophore (4087) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125119)

Paypal is operating as an unlicensed bank. I am amazed that the Feds have not already come down on them. And don't get me started on Ebay...

PayPal + eBay == Ripoff (0)

JoshDM (741866) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125291)

These fees on top of it, I am no longer participating with selling via eBay. eBay has a relation with PayPal; from what I've been informed, eBay owns PayPal. Given that is true, they heavily promote PayPal as a purchase method of choice, going so far in the past as to discourage other instant payment methods including one from Western Union that was eventually dismissed by said provider, and I believe Google Checkout, but I've not kept up with it so I could be wrong. Instead of creating such animosity by adding additional fees, it should have been in eBay/PayPal's best interest to provide a fee discount to the seller if his buyer was purchasing something via eBay through PayPal. That is where eBay/PayPal fails.

While we're at it, Wire Transfer Fees (1)

tylersoze (789256) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125437)

What's up with banks charging *you* when somebody wires money to your account? Isn't the fact you're using my fucking money and not even giving me interest on it enough? Makes about as much sense as phone companies charging to send or receive a text message, since it costs them on the order of, oh, say .0000001 cents to send one.

Paypal blames eBay, eBay blames Paypal. (4, Interesting)

Peet42 (904274) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125455)

I made an eBay sale recently. The charges, when I placed the auction, amounted to 50p, but by the time Paypal took them from my bank account they had quadrupled to £2. On an item that only sold for £15 this amounts to a 10% surcharge. But who is getting the extra £1.50?

eBay say that the discrepancy is down to Paypal, Paypal say they're just passing on eBay's charges. Yet, as far as I can gather, they are the same company?!?

I get the feeling they are "bouncing" small amounts like this back and forth between the two divisions in the hope that nobody will notice, or at least that we can't be bothered chasing it up.

I wish more sites accepted Google Checkout.

PayPal needs to be regulated like a bank (4, Insightful)

hellfire (86129) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125587)

PayPal works with money like a bank or credit card, but they are treated like an internet Western Union on steroids, and yet most of the public is trusting them like a bank, which is a mistake.

PayPal needs controls like bank. The majority of their transactions may be okay, but that's like 95 to 99%... of billions. That's way too many bad transactions. They need to be made more secure, particularly for consumers.

I avoid PayPal like the plague because I don't want to become a statistic.

Re:PayPal needs to be regulated like a bank (0, Troll)

macraig (621737) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125769)

Paypal needs to be made more ethical first: fixed fees,, not a percentage. Security just might naturally follow if Paypal grew an ethical bone... starting by lopping off the diseased head and hoping it grows a better one.

It's the percentage fees themselves (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 4 years ago | (#29125707)

Paypal wants to steal three percent of every transaction? Why is it a percentage? Does their automated system actually put in more effort the larger the amount of money involved? No. Paypal's middle-man "contribution" is fixed, regardless of the amount of a transaction, so why isn't its fee also fixed?

Answer: greed.

If Paypal were even vaguely ethical, it would be charging a fixed fee for what is a fixed amount of effort on its part. Paypal isn't ethical. Neither are many real estate brokers, stock brokers, and lawyers. The easiest way to stop this greed would have been for people to simply vote with their dollars and refuse to be disadvantaged in this fashion, but far too many people are incredibly lousy at math, didn't know any better, and now the practice is institutionalized such that no one even thinks about it. What Paypal is doing is the rule, typical capitalistic behavior, not the exception. The only thing that's different here is that Paypal is HUGE and got belatedly scrutinized because Paypal tried to obfuscate it.

The real (ethical) issue is that Paypal has been demanding those percentage fees from anyone, not the fact that Paypal got caught trying to hide an expansion of whom it charges that percentage. Paypal already knew the percentage fees were unethical, and that is precisely why it desired to hide the expansion from consumers: it fears the consequences of its unethical greedy behavior.

If we're going to collectively rebel against Paypal charging a percentage fee, I'd suggest we not stop the rebellion until we've put an end to all such greedy percentage fees.

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