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IBM, Other Multinationals "Detaching" From the US

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the hear-the-weather's-fine-in-dubai dept.

IBM 812

theodp writes "If you're brilliant, work really hard, and earn a world-class doctorate from a US university, IBM has a job for you at one of its US research sites — as a 'complementary worker' (as this 1996 piece defined the then-emerging term). But be prepared to ship out to India or China after you've soaked up knowledge for 13 months as a 'long-term supplemental worker.' Newsweek sketches some of the bigger picture, reporting that IBM, HP, Accenture, and others are finding it profitable to detach from the United States (even patenting the process). 'IBM is one of the multinationals that propelled America to the apex of its power, and it is now emblematic of the process of creative destruction pushing America to a new, less dominant, and less comfortable position.'"

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812 comments

And the solution...? (5, Insightful)

XanC (644172) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157513)

Instead of blaming them for leaving, why don't we stop chasing them away?

Re:And the solution...? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157535)

Tell that to Obama.

Re:And the solution...? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157575)

Yes because this all started the day Obama took office. Before that it was all peaches and sunshine.

Stop watching Fox News ffs.

Solution is You and Me (4, Insightful)

sanman2 (928866) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157673)

The fact is that Obama is a redistributionist who claims that jobs are owed and not earned. Sorry, but that kind of attitude is what's driving employers away from the USA. You wish you had a girlfriend/boyfriend? Then make yourself appealing, so that someone will want to hook up with you. Don't go talking about how having a significant other is your inalienable right, somehow owed to you by society or other unspecified parties. You wish you had a job? Then make yourself appealing and more competent, so that someone will want to hire you. Don't go talking about how somebody else is "stealing" "your" job, as if a job is somehow owed to you, regardless of how incompetent you are.

Obama is consistently talking about "American jobs" as if the jobs are rightfully American. His political stance is well known to be re-distributionist. Start earning, and stop whining for a handout.

Re:Solution is You and Me (4, Informative)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157793)

You're right that the jobs aren't automatically American jobs but even if Obama is a "redistributionist you're still ignoring the original guy's point that this happened long before Obama came into office.

In fact a load of it happened under Bush. Are you telling me he's a "redistributionist" who scared off companies? In fact it's usually Republicans that allow companies to import people on H1-Bs and allow them to move work over seas with no negative effect. That is probably what makes companies move.

The fact is that when it comes down to it, neither Obama or Bush really make a difference. Foreign workers definitely don't do a better job (like wise their work isn't inferior). What it's all about is someone in Manila can be paid for a year on a couple months of my salary, they have no expectations of pensions, private health care, etc. They're just happy to have a good job.

My company employs over seas staff. I know what they're paid, what they get and it's quite obvious why my company uses them. The employment laws are more lax and they 6 people for 1 of me.

It's not fucking rocket science.

Re:Solution is You and Me (0, Flamebait)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157823)

"The fact is that Obama is a redistributionist who claims that jobs are owed and not earned."

Do you mean that people who are wealthy have a right to keep that wealth as God intended? All wealth stems from theft either now or in earlier eras. You aren't going to win this argument on the fundamentals so drop the pretense of caring about basic rights and discuss this pragmatically.

Re:Solution is You and Me (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157855)

"The fact is that Obama is a redistributionist who claims that jobs are owed and not earned."

Do you mean that people who are wealthy have a right to keep that wealth as God intended? All wealth stems from theft either now or in earlier eras. You aren't going to win this argument on the fundamentals so drop the pretense of caring about basic rights and discuss this pragmatically.

Who'd you STEAL from then in order to get access to the computer you used to make your post?

Idiot.

"ClosedMind" would be more approprate than "ClosedSource".

Re:Solution is You and Me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157871)

And how are we going to develop a more competent populace when we keep cutting funding for public education? It's ridiculous.

Re:Solution is You and Me (5, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157881)

This is actually the 'old style' socialism you are complaining about. State of the art socialism is about empowering individuals and helping them become productive members of society, wherever you can.

Denmark has a program called Flexicurity which is a popular example of this. Under that system, once you lose your job, you can get unemployment benefits as long as you are actively looking for another job. Or, if you prefer, you can go back to school, get some new skills, during which time the government will also help you out. This has worked out really well for the Danes: it allows companies to easily fire people they don't need, and allows people who are out of a job to easily find another one (or retrain for another one). It is a flexible, secure workforce.

It isn't always a matter of whether it is 'earned' or 'owed.' Sometimes we can change things to make the path to productivity as easy as possible for our citizens. If we can help them out, why not?

Re:Solution is You and Me (5, Insightful)

ucblockhead (63650) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157893)

So you are saying that jobs are fleeing from the US to China because the US is becoming "redistributionist"?

You might want to investigate the political and economic system of China before you hold them up as an alternative to Obama's "socialism".

What is driving "offshoring" is not taxes, it's pure free-market forces. Labor is more expensive here than it is there, so companies attempt to cut costs by moving the labor there. Companies don't increase presence in China because the US raises taxes 5%. They move to China because they can hire a college educated engineer there for $15k a year.

Re:And the solution...? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157691)

No, moron, because Obama is the one in the position to stop it. Why do you fucktards take everything as a personal attack? Why do you all caw on the same old shit and not stop to take a look around?

All this shit that you guys pissed and moaned about under Bush is still happening today and worse is coming. I thought this guy was suppose to right our course in a couple strokes of a pen. I thought all these deep offenses of the Bush administration were to be nothing more than memories before his first 100 days were up.

Now we have him putting his energies into something that should have been a back seat issue until we got things working again in this nation. We're at damn near double digit unemployment rates today and we have those at the helm talking about a program that is only going to increase the tax payer's burden? WTF?

Are you too dumb to see the problems or too arrogant to admit that things just really aren't getting better for the majority of the working class? Are you going to finally stop thinking that something better is right around the next bend as you're getting worked over by a different set of cheaters and liars?

Keep pulling the party line asshat. It's what keeps us digging a deeper and deeper hole. There is no competition in Washington. It's a fucking scam and you're feeding into it. *YOU* are the asshole who is helping the degradation of this nation.

Funny that your shit got modded up by a fellow goose stepping stooge.

Re:And the solution...? (1, Troll)

MindlessAutomata (1282944) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157695)

Yeah, but just because Bush was as much or more of a problem than Obama doesn't justify a damn thing, and Obama is the guy playing king now. How many years have to pass before people stop pointing the finger at Bush (for as awful a president as he was) and concentrate on the current administration, whatever it will be then? Also, a newsflash: the entire "system" didn't start with Bush. Bush is not even close to the root of the problem. Who cares who the actor is here when the part is always played the same?

Re:And the solution...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157727)

What about one year? You haven't even allowed the ink to dry on half the reform attemted before crying about how little has been done.

Or maybe two, cause, well you know, its hard to fix 8+ years of fuck ups in a couple of months when you're still trying to placate the idiots who fucked everything up.

Re:And the solution...? (4, Insightful)

Nimey (114278) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157757)

Honestly, it will take a /long time/. I've known conservatives to pull "but Clinton!" even in the final year of Bush's term. It's about equally retarded no matter which side is doing it... though I'm still pissed that Bush got away with what he did.

The truth isn't just relative (3, Informative)

microbox (704317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157827)

To be fair, Bush pissed off the whole world and destroyed the US budget. Both will take years to repair. No other US president can come close to that.

Re:And the solution...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157839)

FairTax, every corporation asked said they would return to US, even EU companies would consider moving their headquarters to USA, every expat and tax refugee from Cayman islands would proudly return back to US.

Re:And the solution...? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157605)

Fucking idiot! This has been happening for the last decade, before Obama even came into the picture. The problem is greedy short term investors who drive companies to short term profits over long term profitability and quality. That's what unregulated capitalism does it drives towards the lowest common denominator - fastest profit with the highest cost at the lowest possible quality until a company implodes and can be sold off piece meal in order to put even more profits in the hands of the investors.

That's what unregulated capitalism does (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157665)

Makes the developing world rich like it made us rich.

Re:And the solution...? (1)

JPortal (857107) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157743)

IBM is not being sold off piecemeal. They're moving jobs outside the U.S. because they have no incentive to stay here.

Obama's not listening - he's *SMARTER* than us (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157643)

Obama even believes turning health care over to the US government will control costs. Tell us, when has the US government ever controlled the cost of ANYTHING?

Gee, that Obama is SOOO smart!!! He's going to turn 1/6th of the US economy over to the government, and he'll even reduce costs while doing that!

Brilliant!!!!

Yeah right. If you think government control of health care is going to improve things, explain the TSA. Explain warrantless wiretapping. Explain TARP. Explain Cash For Clunkers. If you REALLY think government control of health care helps, why the hell don't you show us the deed for the Brooklyn Bridge that you just bought?

So surrendering our FREEDOM OF CHOICE in healthcare is going to get us what, exactly? More money spent on crappy care? Elderly being pushed to die off (Don't think so? Look how Obama has quickly and quietly revived the Clinton-era "Your Life, Your Choices" program in the Department of Veteran's Affairs to, ermm, encourage veterans to not seek life-extending care....)

And what happened to Obama's promise to cut the deficit in half?

Re:Obama's not listening - he's *SMARTER* than us (1)

rinoid (451982) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157711)

Oh for mod points right now, like Kruschev, I'll bury you!

This has NOTHING to do with Obama or the Obama administration. FFS ppl he's been in office 6 months.

What freedom of choice? (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157835)

There hasn't been freedom of choice in medicine in decades.

Who's chasing them? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157565)

We have the lowest effective corporate tax rates in the world for a developed nation. That still isn't enough I guess. American justice, American greed. Maybe if we stopped doing stupid shit like invading Iraq and keepng bases all over the world we could reduce that tax rate even further! But they'd still leave for a cheaper place.

Re:Who's chasing them? (0)

MindlessAutomata (1282944) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157719)

We have the lowest effective corporate tax rates in the world for a developed nation. That still isn't enough I guess.

Ok, so you picked one factor out of many, care to tell us why we should only concentrate on that one? I'm no fan of big business--they always collude with the government--but ignoring that, they don't owe you anything, a job or their product. If you buy it, you're coming out ahead, so quit the "help help I'm oppressed!" routine.

Re:Who's chasing them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157773)

Because the effective rate is the only tax rate that matters for companies large enough to have accounting departments and legal departments?

Re:Who's chasing them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157841)

One reason why corporations are leaving the developed nations is that the developed nations have little room to grow. There is a way to change that, but please understand that I'm not looking forward to that.

Re:Who's chasing them? (4, Insightful)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157879)

Actually corporations owe the public a lot.

Incorporation's primary purpose is to shield those who make the profit from the consequences of their company's actions. If this legal shield is ever removed we can start talking about everybody being on their own but it's absurd under current law.

Re:Who's chasing them? (4, Informative)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157769)

I hope the "we" you are talking about isn't the US. We actually [taxfoundation.org] have one of the [taxfoundation.org] highest corporate [kpmg.com] tax rates [heritage.org] in the world. [rightsidenews.com]

Perhaps Google would have helped you a little.

Re:Who's chasing them? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157945)

Links to RWA propagandists? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Re:And the solution...? (5, Insightful)

bistromath007 (1253428) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157583)

Because the stuff that's "chasing them away" is the same stuff that still nominally keeps the American people from being totally subjugated and destitute like the Chinese and Indians are. A corporation has one goal, by law: make money for the shareholders. Once one has grown so large that the vast majority of its competitors are insignificant, the best way for it to do that is to rape the worker and the consumer as hard is it can. Companies aren't going to stop leaving the US until we are so broken by their flight that we are forced to become fascist. We are doomed to this fate. There is nothing we can do about it anymore. But it still bothers me that you're cheering it on with your suggestion that the whole thing is the fault of interference with the free market.

Re:And the solution...? (4, Insightful)

JWman (1289510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157639)

Ummm.... what about the second highest corporate tax rate in the world [taxfoundation.org] ? It sits at about 39%. I think that just might have something to do with wanting to leave.

Corporate taxes are a joke. They just get passed on to the consumer anyway, and they make businesses less competitive internationally. But it is politically rewarding to go after the big evil corporations and for them to pay their way.

Really, and end to corporate taxes is a big reason why I strongly support the FairTax [fairtax.org] . It would no longer hide the taxes we pay, and special interests would not be able to carve out exceptions for themselves life they do all the time now.

Re:And the solution...? (4, Informative)

Trepidity (597) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157663)

You might want to look at the effective corporate tax rate, since no actual corporations pay 39% with our loophole-riddled tax code of exceptions, credits, and deductions. The actual rate they pay [taxanalysts.com] is about 22%, the 2nd-lowest in the developed world (after Ireland).

Re:And the solution...? (2, Insightful)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157811)

It's only worth it if your savings are higher than the cost of hiring accountants that can find and exploit these loopholes.

Re:And the solution...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157903)

Right, because multinationals can't afford to pay for accountants.

Re:And the solution...? (2, Insightful)

Ryan_Singer (114640) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157931)

If this is true, why not simplify the tax code to get rid of the "exceptions, credits, and deductions", and then lower the rate to 22%. Then we could have a much easier time advertising our competitiveness, and we could eliminate some of the compliance costs and deadweight loss in the tax code.

Re:And the solution...? (0, Troll)

nine-times (778537) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157715)

Corporate taxes are a joke. They just get passed on to the consumer anyway

Right, instead the government should just be giving them money, because surely that benefit will just be passed on to the consumer anyway. After all, economics is a zero-sum game and corporations always just charge consumers the cost of production.

Re:And the solution...? (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157799)

what about the second highest corporate tax rate in the world? It sits at about 39%.

With all the loopholes, actual corporate tax payments are less than half of that theoretical rate [prospect.org] . In 2000, for example, IBM reported $5.7 billion in U.S. profits and paid only 3.4 percent of that in federal income taxes.

Corporate taxes are a joke. They just get passed on to the consumer anyway

No more so than payroll taxes get "passed on" to the consumer.

Raise workers taxes, reduce their take home pay; many working-class people are already living paycheck to paycheck, so they have to join together, unionize and strike to demand pay raises to make ends meet. Labor costs go up, end prices go up.

Raise corporate taxes, investors profits -- their unearned income -- is reduced. Too frickin' bad; it's like a tax on your gambling winnings. You can raise prices to try and return your profits to higher levels, but if there's any competition, you'll be undercut by someone willing to keep profits per unit lower and make it up on volume.

If corporate taxes were cut, payroll taxes, of course, would have to rise (modulo massive spending cuts, just what we need in the middle of a recession and two wars). That would shift even more of the tax burden off of the rich and on to the working classes, just what the investment classes would like.

Re:And the solution...? (1)

benjamindees (441808) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157697)

A corporation has one goal, by law: make money for the shareholders.

This is hardly the only law affecting business. By law, corporations pay taxes. By law, corporations abide by environmental regulations. By law, corporations may not completely stifle competition. By law, corporations provide for "full employment". (Yes it's a law.)

Taken together with market competition, the laws provide very little room for profit on the part of the average, productive business. So it is unsurprising that businesses most able to produce the highest profits through their own efforts (and not through corruption and exploiting government force) are the first to jump ship to locations with fewer laws preventing it.

Re:And the solution...? (1)

binkzz (779594) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157789)

A corporation has one goal, by law: make money for the shareholders.

There is no law stating such a thing that I'm aware of.

achievable? (4, Insightful)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157809)

Because the stuff that's "chasing them away" is the same stuff that still nominally keeps the American people from being totally subjugated and destitute like the Chinese and Indians are.

What makes you think that's achievable? Americans are competing with Chinese and Indians. What possible reason would there be for anybody to pay more to an American worker than to a Chinese or Indian worker?

Companies aren't going to stop leaving the US until we are so broken by their flight that we are forced to become fascist.

Companies don't care about fascism. We just need to become cheaper, or we need to help Chinese and Indians become rich.

Re:And the solution...? (2, Interesting)

Lordplatypus (731338) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157895)

Personally I have never understood why people are so convinced the solution to everything is the "free-market".

The entire concept of a free market is based on a system free from external influence, force, fraud, or coercion. Am I the only one who notices that this isn't practical in a global setting without a centralized government?

The only thing the Invisible Hand is doing is slapping down any businesses that are actually trying to do things in a fair and respectable way.

In my view, the answer is easy. Take away the benefit of bad business. You want to sell products in the United States, just prove that all people and processes employed in the manufacture of the product meet the minimum standards of the United States. I know what most people would say; that would create a humongous amount of bureaucracy! It is true, but it would put everyone on a level playing field and on the bright side create lots of American jobs administrating it.

Re:And the solution...? (2, Insightful)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157603)

You'll never be able to compete with wages in India, China, the Philippines, etc

Every country grows up by companies not giving employees much. Then everything becomes dependant on those employees and they start demanding things, starting unions, wanting protection and business gets expensive so businesses move.

Once everyone is on the same level of wealth companies can't move around or at least have less reason to. So that means either westerners need to start accepting less or ensure that poorer countries become less poor.

This whole mentality that everything should be dirt cheap but wages should be high isn't helping either. Both the US and UK seem to have a thing again immigrants taking jobs but don't want to pay wages that locals will accept.

You can't have it both ways and no matter what you think, the higher ups will always be paid more even if you the little guy does the actual work. You have to remember the higher ups are responsible for a lot and it's a risky job. They can even go to jail for something the little guy did without his knowledge.

Re:And the solution...? (5, Insightful)

LaskoVortex (1153471) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157733)

You have to remember the higher ups are responsible for a lot and it's a risky job.

Where did this myth come from that you get to be a higher up if you can just take the risk? 99% are "higher ups" because of birth right. The other 1% are held out there as tokens of the philosophy "if only you work hard enough for us higher-ups, you can make it too".

Ask any poor guy with an inkling of sense and he'll gladly accept this "big bad risk" you speak of to make a truckload of money. I'd do it. Where is my executive position at Goldman Sachs?

Nope. They aren't handing those positions out to people just because they want to take risks. You need to *KNOW* somebody, or better yet, be related to somebody. Otherwise, they could just hit any casino in Vegas to fill their empty executive positions.

I'm not saying you can't make it in capitalist America if you try hard enough, but it sure does help if you choose your parents wisely. And the willingness to accept risk is not the reason people get to be higher ups.

Re:And the solution...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157747)

You have to remember the higher ups are responsible for a lot and it's a risky job. Then how come they make tons of money even when the company fails AND they get another job doing the same thing and making even more money company after company in their wake...

Re:And the solution...? (1)

uncleFester (29998) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157787)

.. do we learn nothing from SimCity?

-r

re: Chasing them away? (4, Interesting)

King_TJ (85913) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157659)

I recommend reading a book called "IBM and the Holocaust" (http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com).

This is a company that happily accepted huge sums of money from the Germans during WWII to computerize the process of hunting down and exterminating Jews, and even "hardened" several of their facilities so they'd survive Allied bombings. All the while, they claimed to be an American business.

It's arguable that in a sense, they "left" the United States back then, even if they still retained a big physical presence here. Despite the law preventing IBM from being able to move their profits out of German banks during the war, they STILL happily worked on their projects for them, knowing full-well they couldn't even touch the money for years.

Re:And the solution...? (1, Troll)

Eggplant62 (120514) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157869)

Better question: Instead of worrying over them leaving, why continue to buy their products/services? I say boycotts are in order here.

Re:And the solution...? (5, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157899)

Instead of blaming them for leaving, why don't we stop chasing them away?

How about instead of letting them run off, we impose heavy import tariffs that negate (and then some) any savings? That's what other countries to to keep jobs and wealth in their nation (and it's what we used to do until Ronald Reagan came along).

This is the fundamental flaw with "free market" capitalism, and this worshipping at the altar of absolute individual (as if a corporation is a human, deserving of human rights!) freedom. It worked for a short while, because there was a lot of room for domestic growth. But once that ran out, those monsters that we unleashed which served us well now must go on and find growth that they can no longer find here.

20 years ago, the Conservative mantra was "buy 'made in America'", now it's "outsource, baby. outsource".

The Democrats may not be a whole lot better on this, but at least they *are* better, and one of Obama's promises was to punish companies which move jobs overseas. Hopefully we can get the healthcare issue taken care of so we can move onto this. Although, looking at how the Republicans have gotten people to take up arms in protest of giving them healthcare, I don't think they'll have any problem convincing the peanut gallery that keeping jobs in America means slave labor camps or some such nonsense.

funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157519)

The law says this is what IBM should do. And its putting the state in trouble.

Hard ball to cope with.

Anonymous Coward (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157529)

Obviously competitive candidates will not lower their standard of living to leave the USA, so what this will really do is lower the pool of candidates applying for these research positions, and potentially lower the quality of researchers at IBM. If IBM feels the cost of USA workers outweighs the risk of falling behind, so be it.

who cares what IBM do (2, Interesting)

postmortem (906676) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157561)

Entrepreneurship is what is cause of success in US. That made all big companies work in first place. As long as there are smart people in US and smart people with ideas and execution to create companies, we're fine.

Re:who cares what IBM do (1, Insightful)

offrdbandit (1331649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157619)

That's all well and good, but we are taxing small businesses into oblivion, and it's only going to get worse.

Re:who cares what IBM do (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157641)

You are a fucking idiot.

Re:who cares what IBM do (1, Flamebait)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157669)

Entrepreneurship is what is cause of success in US.

US has no monopoly on smart people. Our comparative advantage seems to be marketing and lawsuits: we know how to dupe and sue more people faster and better than other nations. This is the ugly truth that gives US a bad name overseas and why so few nations want to copy our model. Kid yourself that it's all about entrepreneurship, or face the not-pleasant-reality.
 

OK, I guess. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157679)

Entrepreneurship is what is cause of success in US. That made all big companies work in first place. As long as there are smart people in US and smart people with ideas and execution to create companies, we're fine.

Absolutely! You just have to fight off the patent suits they will file against you - it doesn't matter if they're frivolous or not because the multi-nationals will just keep you in court until you can't afford the legal fees any longer. They win by attrition.

Then there are all the Government regulations that they rail against in the media - with the help of the pundits. But the truth of the matter is that Government regulations add yet another barrier to entry for the entrepreneur that you've mentioned. So, behind closed doors, big corps LOVE Government regulations because only they can afford the lawyers and fees to navigate through them. And if there's a regulation that's just getting their way, well, they call in their boys in Congress to put pressure on the regulators to cut them some slack.

Now all those entrpreneurs that are making it have big corp connections or money behind them so they get a get out of jail free card.

Now, with globalization, even if you beat all those odds, you have some one in some third world country that doesn't respect intellectual property and they make cheap knock-offs or even knock-offs that equal your quality, but since they don't have any R&D to cover, they're profitable while said entrepreneur is being shutdown because he can't pay his bills.

But your'e right - just take care of those problems over and above the normal business problems and risks and BINGO! jobs for everyone.

P.S. Any spelling errors is because I haven't installed the plugin for Opera yet.

Re:OK, I guess. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157797)

P.S. Any spelling errors is because I haven't installed the plugin for Opera yet.

Here's the real problem. This would all pan out if people would just start buying real, Made in the US. cars, electronics, and browsers.

Re:who cares what IBM do (1)

binkzz (779594) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157801)

As long as there are smart people in US and smart people with ideas and execution to create companies, we're fine.

What if all those smart people move to other countries to execute their ideas, because they can make more profit that way?

So? (3, Insightful)

mosb1000 (710161) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157567)

And your point is? Maybe we should prohibit these businesses from operating in the states. Oh wait, that's why they're leaving. . . And that's the problem.

Patriotism is a highly overrated trait in anything/anybody. If it's better to leave, why stay?

Re:So? (3, Insightful)

bagorange (1531625) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157589)

The point is that people have been told for the last 30-40 years that "business" (whatever that actually means) is intrinsically good for the western world. Many people believed this, and now they are surprised.

Re:So? (2, Interesting)

benjamindees (441808) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157875)

Ceteris paribus, economizing resources is intrinsically good for everyone.

Obviously there are some implementation details that get in the way of that always working out. Recognizing and correcting market failure, force and fraud should be the primary function of government regulations meant to ensure we all benefit from the "economy". The US government has clearly demonstrated it is not up to that task.

Worse, there are entire swaths of activities that much of American society considers "beneficial" which actually constitute unwarranted force: foreign warfare, welfare, retirement entitlements, unchecked immigration, employment policies, monopolization of natural resources. Few states, let alone the US, even philosophically recognize most of these as such. As far as I am aware, none recognize them all.

Businesses will naturally move to states with the most beneficial regulatory environment for them. Those with high labor costs will move to states with high populations or unchecked immigration. Those with high materials costs will move to states where they can easily monopolize natural resources or where an imperialistic military will ensure resource availability. Those that perform dangerous work will move to states with socialized healthcare and little ability for legal recourse by injured parties. Polluting industries will move to states with few environmental regulations. Et cetera, et cetera...

But the US economy will never function for the benefit of all Americans until all unwarranted force is regulated and eliminated and economic activity proceeds on a voluntary basis for all involved.

Stop Running Trade Deficits (2, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157631)

Stop running trade deficits. Tariffs against lopsided trade are not the big evil that right-wing economists say they are. If other countries stopped running trade surpluses with us, they'd have to create a stronger local consumer class, which would start to even out monetary differences and even out imports. Balance balance balance.

Re:Stop Running Trade Deficits (1)

mosb1000 (710161) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157689)

If you wait long enough, a trade deficit will go away on its own as exchange rates move to match purchasing power. That being true, why bother with government regulations?

Tariffs discourage trade, which hurts everybody. If they are unnecessary, we shouldn't use them.

Re:Stop Running Trade Deficits (2, Insightful)

Unoti (731964) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157907)

We totally shouldn't have government regulation. Except for the fact that pure capitalism tends to exploit children [unicef.org] , exploit workers [economicexpert.com] or both [tcetoday.com] .

I'm all for free trade and as little government intervention as possible, too. But capitalism is all about short term gain regardless of the impact on the people or the environment. It's human nature that's got us screwed.

It's the main reason the ideas of The Long Now Foundation [longnow.org] are so interesting.

Re:So? (3, Funny)

Trepidity (597) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157759)

I'm pretty sure if we actually "prohibit[ed] these business from operating in the states" that they'd go bankrupt pretty quickly: IBM would not last a month if it were prohibited from selling products or services in the United States.

I got an idea: lets increase corporate taxes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157573)

Yeah, that'll give IBM an incentive to put more workers in the US!

Or maybe not....

Better Idea: (2, Insightful)

FatSean (18753) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157591)

Reduce the tax rate but eliminate loopholes.

Or, we could close up all those expensive shit-stirring military bases, stop the failed wars (oh Korea and Vietnam, I wish we had learned from you..) and cancel social security, medicare and medicaid.

Re:Better Idea: (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157637)

"...and cancel social security, medicare and medicaid."

Yeah, because eliminating the last bit of any notion that we actually live in a society of more than "I got mine, now you worry about yourself with no hope if you fail" is just exactly what we need right now.

Re:Better Idea: (-1, Flamebait)

0123456 (636235) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157705)

"...and cancel social security, medicare and medicaid."

Yeah, because eliminating the last bit of any notion that we actually live in a society of more than "I got mine, now you worry about yourself with no hope if you fail" is just exactly what we need right now.

Demanding that the government steal other people's money to subsidise your pension and healthcare is about as selfish as it gets.

And the simple fact is that the US government has pushed the costs of doing business in America so high that no sensible company would set up there if there's another viable alternative; either you can fix that or you can whine as you fade into irrelevance.

Re:Better Idea: (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157925)

"Demanding that the government steal other people's money to subsidise your pension and healthcare is about as selfish as it gets."

Yeah, It's only OK for the government to steal other people's money so they can kill people in other countries or keep oil companies safe.

M*U*L*T*I*N*A*T*I*O*N*A*L*S (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157577)

They are multinational corporations... what kind of national loyalty are we expecting from them?
They behave exactly as legislation allows them to behave. If you don't like it, change the legislation.

Re:M*U*L*T*I*N*A*T*I*O*N*A*L*S (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157595)

Exactly.

Re:M*U*L*T*I*N*A*T*I*O*N*A*L*S (5, Insightful)

bagorange (1531625) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157607)

Attempt to change the legislation and be called an America-hating Hitler-Nazi-Communist-Socialist-Terrorist-Muslim-Paedophile.

Re:M*U*L*T*I*N*A*T*I*O*N*A*L*S (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157675)

Probably... still that's the way to make the changes. Demand it from YOUR representative. Demand sweeping change in the political process, which would ban financial contribution from any corporate entity, which would ban lobbying on behalf of any other entity than constituency. Power to the people.

Re:M*U*L*T*I*N*A*T*I*O*N*A*L*S (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157779)

don't be so naive.

Corporations are Greedy (5, Insightful)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157599)

Large corporations are not good citizens and care little about the welfare of the nations that created them. I've heard them described as sociopathic is nature, which is probably quite an accurate description. They rarely have any long term vision in most cases and only seem to look a quarter or two ahead to make investors happy. Limiting their greed just slightly compared to their competitors might earn some good will in the future, but even that seems to be beyond most corporations.

Re:Corporations are Greedy (1)

JPortal (857107) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157777)

It's not good for a company to support a nation with wasteful policies.

Re:Corporations are Greedy (1, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157819)

You know what, I consider myself an American, and I'm happy to be one, but before that, I am a citizen of the world, of the human race. We have brothers and sisters who are suffering in India too, and if my taking a lower salary helps them out, then I am ok with that. We are never going to drop to their level of poverty because we have things like running water, a strong infrastructure, and plentiful high quality housing. These are things that won't go away, just because of outsourcing.

If you REALLY want to keep jobs in America, the key is to help raise the standard of living in other countries to be similar to that of the United States. This is of course hard, but it is eventually going to happen. Then outsourcing will stop, just because it will be more expensive to hire a programmer on the other side of the globe than to hire one in your office. Manufacturing will begin to return to America as well. The upside to this is that in the mean time, while they are learning to improve their productivity and standard of living, we are able to buy things made from them cheaply. Each side has its own benefits.

Re:Corporations are Greedy (3, Insightful)

speedtux (1307149) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157847)

Large corporations are not good citizens and care little about the welfare of the nations that created them. I've heard them described as sociopathic is nature,

What definition of "good citizen" would that be? Someone who turns down a high paying job abroad and works on a low paying job in his country of birth? Why is that good? Do you know anybody who actually behaves that way?

Plenty of people leave their home nations because they get a better paying job or a higher quality of life elsewhere. America has benefited tremendously from that because so many exceptionally skilled people have come to the US from other nations.

Of course, as the US becomes less attractive to individuals and US immigration becomes ever more tighter, corporations are leaving as well. It's simple, rational behavior, and both corporations and individuals behave accordingly.

Saying "Corporations are Greedy" is like ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157883)

saying "The sky is blue" or "A tiger has stripes". Duh! A corporation's whole reason for existence is to make money.

Some of these corporations are larger (fiscally) than the nations that served as their nursery. Like the child coddled in the nursery these corporations grow up, become smarter and richer than you, and they don't want to live with your house rules anymore. They don't even send Christmas cards or visit anymore *sniff*.

they're not stupid! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157615)

The future is China, not the USA, and IBM knows it. So do GM and other multinationals.

Why on earth would they remain chained to a sinking ship? That makes no sense. American labour is more expensive. They're heavily regulated. The supply of highly educated people in the USA is drying up, because all the people with advanced engineering degrees are from China and India.

This is not a surprise. It's the actions of a rational entity acting in its own self interest. The USA is rapidly decreasing in international importance, so *of course* they are trying to shift elsewhere.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Re:they're not stupid! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157867)

draconian rights restriction. surveillance state. complete lack of environmental controls. yeah wow, what a future. I can't wait. maybe for rich stock holders and corporate officers, but the average worker is fucked if he stays in the USA or if he goes to china.

Re:they're not stupid! (4, Interesting)

Renraku (518261) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157939)

Well, let them all move to India/China/etc, then.

Let them move to countries that rely more on rote memorization of facts, and little in the way of independent thinking. Let them move to countries where the employees could feed themselves for a year by stealing a few pieces of their product. Let them move to countries where the government could very well decide that the company isn't pious or nationalistic enough, and take over their assets.

America has many great and successful companies for a reason.

It's hard to put a dollar amount on how much money will be lost by them moving overseas, but I guarantee it'll be a net loss. I look forward to hearing some CEO's say, "Well, we had record profits this year, but no one can seem to actually find any of this money, and we can't even pay rent on some of our offices anymore!" Metrics aren't perfect, and no one with a marketing degree or above the level of middle management seems to know that.

Its the law of the jungle (5, Insightful)

Tokolosh (1256448) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157635)

The Egyptians complained about the English "stealing" their cotton spinning and weaving business. The English complained about the Yankee New Englanders, who complained about the Southerners, who complained about the Mexicans, who complained about the Malaysians who are complaining about the Chinese and Indians.

When I say "complained", I mean passed laws and regulations, imposed sanctions, taxes and duties, fought wars, battled smuggling, and whined.

In the long run, the laws of econonics ALWAYS win. The US should fix the causes, not the symptoms.

Confusing Article (0)

Swanktastic (109747) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157651)

I'm confused at what the article is trying to say. Obviously they're upset that "something" is moving from the USA to overseas, but it sounds like IBM is encouraging their consultants to consult overseas, and their researchers to research overseas. Is that really that big of an issue?

I work at a manufacturer that designs and builds stuff in the USA (and to a lesser extent overseas) to ship all over the world. If you want to get into a leadership position, you'd better be prepared to spend 5-10 years of your career outside the US to gain an international perspective. This way you don't have some idiot who's never been outside the US trying to tell the rest of the world why they don't really need what they think they need.

         

Re:Confusing Article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157699)

Of course, your salary is adjusted when you're "consulting overseas". If you plan on living your entire life and retiring in China or India, then making their wages is fine, I suppose. But what if the ship you overseas to make a fifth of your old salary and then after decades of busting your ass overseas competing with people overseas just to keep your job, you decide you want ot retire back in the states with your family and friends? Oh, except it's hard to retire in America at American costs when you've spent your career earning offshore salaries.

Isn't Chinese Law (2, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157667)

that any factory or venture in China must be at least 51% domestically owned, such that they always will have the power?

Can't help but think that all these companies are building up their own competition... when China decides the dollar isn't that great anymore and that they've sucked out all the knowledge needed of the US and other 1st world countries to be on par with them.

Not that US companies alone can be blamed, the US consumer, with their rush to the cheapest priced options, by and large, contributed to this cycle.

Stupid patent... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157681)

Seems like a stupid thing to be patentable... but maybe it would be good if they do, because it could slow other companies abandoning ship.

The big problem is our immigration system (3, Insightful)

ThousandStars (556222) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157717)

... or lack thereof, one might say.

The best thing we could do if we don't want IBM and other companies going abroad is what John Doerr and Thomas Friedman have suggested [nytimes.com] :

We should be taking advantage. Now is when we should be stapling a green card to the diploma of any foreign student who earns an advanced degree at any U.S. university, and we should be ending all H-1B visa restrictions on knowledge workers who want to come here.

Because it's often difficult or impossible to import international engineers and scientists with valuable or unusual skills to the United States, the logical alternative is to go to where they are. Want this kind of behavior on the part of IBM and others to, if not stop altogether, then at least to slow? Implement Friedman's suggestion. Otherwise, don't implicitly (or, in the case of many commenters on this thread, explicitly) complain when companies react to the conditions that politicians, and by extension voters, have placed on them.

if your own government can't provide (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157723)

if your own government can't provide even the most basic services like health-care it's time to ship-out... this is what you get if your country is run by un-capitalistic idiots (who think social services are a devils spawn). there is only 1 thing to blame here, and that's the people who vote incorrectly each time and stop voting after they created a crisis "again!". time for the basics social security paid by employers, health-care cost shared by employer employee like in 80% of Europe (where over 99% including the homeless have basic health-care). time to stop being an idiot son of the world and grow the fuck up! and take care of your own people! nobody besides Mexicans are jumping to go to America, everyone here knows there is nothing there. all our big company's have been ripped off by thieving thugs and have left your ass. from shell to ahold they have all been scammed in America, it's the same way enron went and every other big company (America is a pirate state, nobody wants to business with anymore). it's your time to fall, goodbye. THE END.

Do what Canada did in 1965. (2, Insightful)

B5_geek (638928) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157735)

In 1965 Canada brought into law the "Auto Pact" ahref=http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/economy/1965canada_us_auto_pact.htmlrel=url2html-14781 [slashdot.org] http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/economy/1965canada_us_auto_pact.html>

It basically states that for every car bought in Canada, one car must be built in Canada.

(In 2001 it was abolished because it infringed on NAFTA.)

This policy works for everybody except the greedy CEO's. Any manufacturing industry could be converted to this setup.

Re:Do what Canada did in 1965. (3, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157763)

This policy works for everybody except the greedy CEO's. Any manufacturing industry could be converted to this setup.

No, such a policy works for no-one other than greedy auto workers; everyone else has to pay higher prices for lower-quality cars, since without competition the auto companies will just sell expensive crap.

export of talent (1)

laktech (998064) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157745)

This didn't really surprise me. Corporations have been importing talent from across the world and perhaps this has become more difficult over time. Over the years, these facilities have acquired quite a bit of talent and expertise. Since H1B visas and green cards are hard to come by, the next logical extension would be to export US talent to these facilities. Most countries that I'm aware of make it much easier for US citizens to obtain work visas and with lucrative compensation, an individuals quality of life in these countries may be far better compared to the US, especially considering the awesome service industry in India.

You get what you pay for. (4, Informative)

jonpublic (676412) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157753)

This is what our factories have to compete with. Plants which poison children.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090820/ap_on_re_as/as_china_lead_poisoning [yahoo.com]

Laws that protect us from this kind of behavior add costs that push companies to these countries.

Democracy isn't cheap.

Re:You get what you pay for. (2, Informative)

ProfM (91314) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157905)

Democracy isn't cheap.

Good thing we don't live in a Democracy. [wimp.com] However, we're tending that way all the time.

Lingua franca & Free Speech (1)

mindbrane (1548037) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157813)

Globalization, rabid dog competition and government interference don't aide in gaining a clear picture of off shoring jobs, or, any one county's standing and future. What remains evident is that English is the lingua franca of today's world and the best education, as a general rule, are still to be had at English speaking Universities. Certainly countries like Japan, France, Germany and others hold their own in their mother tongues, but English rules. As long as developing and, even, competitive countries continue to send their children to be educated in English speaking and democratic countries then, I venture, the R&D and innovations, will continue to originate in the same countries that house the prevalent Universities. Freedom of speech and flourishing ideologies like FOSS are critical to the exchange of ideas that drive the best in education and innovation. As Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others". And, as nature teaches, faster nervous systems eat slower nervous systems, and, democracies by dint of lower, or, less barriers foster faster nervous systems.

Isn't the real fix... (4, Insightful)

Xenious (24845) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157815)

Isn't the real fix that we improve the countries they are outsourcing to until the economy there demands the same as US salaries? At that point geography becomes the benefit instead of dollars and they want to hire the guy closer to "home."

Ballmer made me laugh.. ..IBM shocks me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157825)

So that's it.. even heads of the most foremost tech corporations are being taken over by greedy suits not feeling concerned at all by the public/planet good.

Whats Next? - Multinationals Use Us (2, Insightful)

JoeCommodore (567479) | more than 4 years ago | (#29157843)

So after they move out what will keep them doing to the US what they do to other countries - exploit countries resources for profit. As we were the home to these greedy groups we have been pretty much insulated as they didn't rock their own boat. But if they are based outside of the US, kinda cleans off that slate and opens us up as a whole new market to exploit, don't you think?

Interesting that processes are perfected in US ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157849)

And shipped abroad... WHo thinks this is good for anyone? Why does the US govt not find a problem with this? It seems that the difference between the cost of living in the US is way higher than the C.O.L in another country. That is what will ensure that US is being parted out for its guts. Thanks Corporate leaders. Do you see where you've lead us?

whooha! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29157923)

... And all of a sudden im glad instead of sorry that I never went to an University, and just sorta 'lucked myself into' an admirable IT-position...
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