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ELF Knocks Down AM Towers To Save Earth, Intercoms

timothy posted about 5 years ago | from the damn-right-wing-nutjobs dept.

Communications 616

ScentCone writes "The ELF (Earth Liberation Front) has claimed responsibility for destroying the primary AM towers used by radio station KRKO in Washington state. From their statement: 'AM radio waves cause adverse health effects including a higher rate of cancer, harm to wildlife, and that the signals have been interfering with home phone and intercom lines.' The poor intercom performance must have been the last straw."

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Citation Needed (5, Informative)

slifox (605302) | about 5 years ago | (#29324705)

AM radio causes cancer?

I'm from Jamaica, the show-me island. So show me you're blowing it out your fanny!
(obligatory Futurama reference)

I wonder if any of these ELF people understand physics... Radio behaves according to the inverse square law; in effect, your cellphone exposes you to much more power than all the cell towers around you, simply due to it being much closer. Similarly, any local transmitter you have (e.g. microwave ovens, CRTs, wifi APs, high-speed digital circuitry, etc) will expose you to more power than those far-away broadcast towers. Unless the AM radio tower is in your backyard, you are probably not in tremendous danger...

...well maybe your home intercom *is* in danger... won't someone please think of the intercoms?!?

Re:Citation Needed (5, Informative)

slifox (605302) | about 5 years ago | (#29324769)

Not to mention that at 1700KHz (the upper end of AM medium wave radio), the ideal quarter-wavelength antenna is around 144 feet long.

Ignoring the fact that we aren't very good conductors... at 5-6 feet tall, I doubt the human body can effectively absorb a lot of this relatively very-long-wavelength radiation.

Does anyone have actual data or methods to predict this kind of effect on human bodies?

Re:Citation Needed (5, Funny)

blincoln (592401) | about 5 years ago | (#29324875)

Ignoring the fact that we aren't very good conductors... at 5-6 feet tall, I doubt the human body can effectively absorb a lot of this relatively very-long-wavelength radiation.

In addition to all of that, there's a reason EM radiation of longer wavelengths is called "non-ionizing". Hint: it's because it's incapable of ionizing anything.

Re:Citation Needed (5, Insightful)

siloko (1133863) | about 5 years ago | (#29325079)

You guys are missing the point - when vandals want to vandalise they will, if they are middle class they will try and justify it under some 'flavour of the month' banner, such as the Earth Liberation Front. Whose earth? They ain't liberating MY earth because the one I live on has no relation to one where radio waves cause cancer . . . maybe I'm just hung up on evidence!

Re:Citation Needed (4, Insightful)

Kell Bengal (711123) | about 5 years ago | (#29325133)

if they are middle class they will try and justify it under some 'flavour of the month' banner

Wait... are you saying that if they aren't middle class they'll justify it differently or not at all? What does class have to do with any of this?

Re:Citation Needed (1)

Erinnys Tisiphone (1627695) | about 5 years ago | (#29325171)

I envision either a bunch of drunken teens or a disgruntled homeowner who was trying to explain interference on a cordless phone. Actually, I see alcohol involved either way. And an environmental cause is a great way to cover oneself, both from identification, and from charges if they're arrested. They start getting charged with vandalism, they play the pity card in the media and get free legal representation from an environmental rights group.

Re:Citation Needed (5, Insightful)

digitig (1056110) | about 5 years ago | (#29324915)

Not to mention -- how on earth does the method of modulation make a difference?

Re:Citation Needed (5, Funny)

jpmorgan (517966) | about 5 years ago | (#29325059)

Electrical engineering makes mother earth cry!

Re:Citation Needed (5, Informative)

anotheregomaniac (1439993) | about 5 years ago | (#29325049)

General information can be found in this FAQ: [] and in particular in FCC bulletin 56 page 15: []

The maximum permissible exposure to the general public from a radiator must be lower than the prescribed limits outside of the fence line. Lower frequencies, like AM radio, have a much higher permissible power than the frequencies used in cell phones or WiFi because the biological effect is less.

They fact that they mention interference to intercoms would lead one to think one of those involved may live nearby or near another antenna.

Re:Citation Needed (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324945)

NIMBYs on steroids.

Re:Citation Needed (2, Funny)

afxgrin (208686) | about 5 years ago | (#29324959)

Heh guess I'll have a tough time selling them on the idea of Satellite based Solar Power?

Re:Citation Needed (1)

skirtsteak_asshat (1622625) | about 5 years ago | (#29324997)

There have been many studies linking and many disproving a link between EM radiation and cancer. Even at extremely high levels, most people don't get cancer. In fact, one theory posits that exposure to low-level radiation at early stages can boost the immune system. No one can say either way for certain, because this is all scientific heresy until someone credible crunches the numbers and they are significant. This is happening all the time as science constantly evolving, but at this time 'most' don't recognize this link. Anyone who does is likely a crackpot... reads popular science, orders blueprints, that sort of thing. Now, devil's advocate, imagine the potential ramifications if some credible scientific study came out rigorously pointing to a link between even high-level EM radiation and a carcinogenic effect... The lawsuits would block out the sun. Pandemonium. Economies would fail, and people would starve. Seriously. The world economy could not afford to take that gut-check at this time. It would destroy us. So then, it would be in the best interest of the 'powers that be' to deny, discredit, obfuscate, and in any way DISPROVE a link between EM radiation and cancer. Well-heeled corporations can afford LOTS of 'science'. With as much as they've invested in cell phones, radio, radar systems... imagine asking them to turn it off? Yeah. Suddenly the link is a possibility again. Let's crunch those numbers one more time.

Re:Citation Needed (1)

slifox (605302) | about 5 years ago | (#29325067)

While that situation may be possible, I'd bet that there are enough university researchers studying this area who would not be silenced by whomever stands to lose profits. The whole point of tenure is so that professors are immune or at least buffered from the effects of current politics (e.g. the desires of the "well-heeled corporations" you mention).

Besides, we wouldn't just get rid of all radio communications. Instead, there would be a huge drive to find and implement non-harmful radio techniques. That would require a lot of research, a lot of investment in new infrastructure, etc... Imagine replacing every radio transmitter and receiver with a more complicated version... You're telling me *that* isn't profitable? Wherever someone is making profit, there will be others waiting to steal that profit-making opportunity for themselves (i.e. .... capitalism).

Re:Citation Needed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325145)

We better start walling off the earth because the heavens put out radio waves / xrays / light...

Re:Citation Needed (1)

skirtsteak_asshat (1622625) | about 5 years ago | (#29325131)

BTW, In no way am I endorsing knocking down AM radio towers in a bid to save the earth. I mean, really?

Re:Citation Needed (0)

glebovitz (202712) | about 5 years ago | (#29325211)

well ... even in the hey day of tobacco popularity, scientific evidence against smoking was fairly high and the relationship between smoking and cancer was supported by lots of evidence. The industry money was able to convince individuals otherwise, mostly because nicotine is so addictive that people were willing to accept any evidence to the contrary.

The same may be true for EM radiation. We would expect to see evidence to support the supposition independent of who was troubled by the facts.The lack of any supporting evidence between EM and cancer probably squashing any conspiracy theories.

Re:Citation Needed (4, Informative)

camg188 (932324) | about 5 years ago | (#29325235)

Voice of America Bethany Station operated in Mason, OH for 50 years, right among a pretty large population (Mason is a suburb of Cincinnati). At it's peak the facility had three transmitters broadcasting with 250 kW, three broadcasting with 175 kW, and two transmitting with 50 kW. Plus it's right next to a 50 kW commercial antenna that's operated over 50 years. Any links to cancer should be readily evident among the surrounding population. (I did a quick web search, but could find nothing about cancer stats for the area)

Re:Citation Needed (5, Insightful)

Green Monkey (152750) | about 5 years ago | (#29325139)

I wonder if any of these ELF people understand physics

Oh, there's no need to wonder. The answer is: No, they don't.

Stop this now. (1, Insightful)

jack2000 (1178961) | about 5 years ago | (#29324725)

I'm tired of these treehuging illiterate morons. The government should go after them with guns...

Re:Stop this now. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324757)

Why the "treehugging" qualifier?

Re:Stop this now. (4, Interesting)

jack2000 (1178961) | about 5 years ago | (#29324851)

Because they hide behind this agenda of "defending nature" when everything they do is politically and financially motivated. Green peace, peta, these "elf" too.. Green peace are BigOil's puppets, don't even get me started on peta...

Why? (5, Insightful)

DesScorp (410532) | about 5 years ago | (#29324909)

Why the "treehugging" qualifier?

Because these people don't want to "save" the planet for man... they place the planet above man. They view this not as our home, but view people as inferior, a parasite on their world. We call them treehuggers because these people are essentially a pagan earth cult. They're a Gaia-worshipping Luddite movement.

Re:Why? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325089)

You're lumping a lot of adjectives and terms together, seemingly indiscriminately. I agree that some of the 'treehugger' types sacrifice human potential solely to take actions they (probably falsely) believe will benefit the Earth as a whole, but do be careful with your descriptions! Not all of us Earth-lovers feel the need to spread biological self-hate ;)

Man is a powerful, intelligent animal. With great power comes great responsibility, as they say, and sometimes the need for self-sacrifice, but it *is* silly to violently oppose technology without understanding its effects. A species that truly respects the Earth and wishes to care after the many forms of life on it is not going to weaken itself; a good caretaker is not weak.

[posting anon bc this might be considered OT or flamebait by some mods, sadly -- just wanted to open the floor for discussion! -pax-]

Re:Why? (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about 5 years ago | (#29325119)

above man.

I think you're wrong. While their espoused cause places the planet above man, I think people in groups like ELF are largely mentally ill - sociopaths to one degree or another. In truth, it's inflicting violence that turns them on, and that's why they do it. The environmental spew they issue is just a thin excuse; they'd torture kittens if they couldn't get their fix any other way.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325191)

And apparently you're just as willfully ignorant and irrational as you accuse them of being. Hint: Nearly all of what you just said is certifiably paranoid nonsense.

Re:Why? (3, Insightful)

Kell Bengal (711123) | about 5 years ago | (#29325219)

Well... actually, it's not a stupid political position of itself. I happen to agree that the planet as a whole is way more important than human endeavour, simply because if we happen to fuck it up we as a species are completely screwed. On that basis, I think it's worth sacrificing one, ten, a million people, if it saves the ecosystem from irreversible destruction (thus saving the rest of us with it).

The problem is that many people who agree that humanity is less important than the environment misinterpret that as "Humanity is not important at all" and then feel free to act wantonly. It's a logical failing of stupid people, but it's not the overarching philosophy itself that is stupid.

What is required is a fair dose of pragmatism. It's much easier and more effective to get one person, ten people, a million people, to change their ways or work with you than it is to destroy them. Likewise, you must pick your battles. Saving one whale at all costs will not dramatically help the world - use some of that effort to raise awareness so that the community demands the saving of all whales.

No (4, Insightful)

copponex (13876) | about 5 years ago | (#29324839)

First, damage to property is not violence. The proper response is to seize the assets of anyone connected with the plot, and prosecute the case as a crime.

Second, no one should condone irrational behavior like this. But before you go after the environmentalists with guns, you should probably consider that in the grand scheme of things, the loss of AM towers are the tiniest problems facing the nation right now.

If you want to repeat history, by all means, crack down on the ELF and send them all to prison and beat up anyone in the group. Throw the PATRIOT act in their faces. Within no time at all you will have given their movement the publicity and recruiting tools to really cause problems. And erode public support as more and more people are locked up by guilt from association. Or you can arrest the criminals who participated in the act, force the dissolution of the rest of the group unless they officially renounce property damage as a method of protest, and actually take care of the problem.

Re:No (1, Insightful)

benjamindees (441808) | about 5 years ago | (#29325043)

First, damage to property is not violence.

By that logic, one can argue that slavery is also not violence.

If someone were to somehow destroy all of the farm machinery in the world and a million people died of starvation as a result, would you argue that that is not violence?

Re:No (1, Insightful)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | about 5 years ago | (#29325045)

Violence is violence. It doesn't have to be against a person to be violence. Unless you think they carefully disassembled these towers, you're wrong that this isn't violence. And when they burnt down buildings at Vail, that was violence too.

Yes, I want to lock these people up. It has nothing to do with whether the US has other problems right now. And making up a freerolling strawman argument to condemn what others want to do isn't helpful either.

Re:No (0)

timeOday (582209) | about 5 years ago | (#29325173)

Sorry, no. Property crimes are not inherently violent crimes.

As for "they should be thrown in jail," obviously. Everybody thinks that. And if the can be caught, they will be, and they will be thrown in jail. So take it easy.

Nobody likes ELF. Not even their "allies." (5, Insightful)

Valdrax (32670) | about 5 years ago | (#29325095)

If you want to repeat history, by all means, crack down on the ELF and send them all to prison and beat up anyone in the group. Throw the PATRIOT act in their faces. Within no time at all you will have given their movement the publicity and recruiting tools to really cause problems. Within no time at all you will have given their movement the publicity and recruiting tools to really cause problems. And erode public support as more and more people are locked up by guilt from association.

I agree with all of your post except this point. Unlike many Islamic terrorist groups, the ELF rarely if ever takes any sort of positive action "back home" to draw in sympathy (e.g. Hamas and Hezbollah run charity hospitals). Additionally, those organizations have an enemy that is widely reviled by their neighbors and considered a threat to their lives and way of life (i.e. Israel and the US). Sympathy for terrorism only happens when normal people feel there's some sort justification for the terrorists' actions.

ELF, in contrast, strikes out seemingly randomly at many targets that are not nearly the worst offenders, like the radio station here or by burning an entire car dealership for selling SUVs. Worse for them, the rest of the green movement is generally filled with people who respect principles of nonviolence and wouldn't support such against against even the worst offenders. That's why next to no one has any sympathy for ELF; they're practically green anarchists. I'm about as tree-hugging as you can get, but absolutely NO environmentalist that I know has ANY sympathy for these losers.

Personally, I'd be happy if they were all locked up so that those of us who aren't violent radicals wouldn't have to have them used against us by people on the other side of the debate.

Re:No (2, Insightful)

JordanL (886154) | about 5 years ago | (#29325135)

First, damage to property is not violence.

That's an awfully interesting position to take. Nuclear weapons are meant to destroy vast swaths of property, but no one calls them non-violent. Similarly, the primary purpose of destroying an AM radio tower is non-violent, but the corrollary effects can very easily be violent, (such as the destruction of part of the emergency broadcast system). That's not a "what if" scenario... the EBS is used for many things and does save lives.

And that's completely avoiding the idea that "violence" is merely destructive agression. If you walk into a Macy's and start destroying displays with a baseball bat, how many people do you think will describe you as violent? My guess is somewhere close to 100 out of 100.

But before you go after the environmentalists with guns, you should probably consider that in the grand scheme of things, the loss of AM towers are the tiniest problems facing the nation right now.

Going after them with the army is obviously an overreaction, but you shouldn't marginalize the ELF. They fit every definition of "terrorist".

Re:No (0, Offtopic)

dr2chase (653338) | about 5 years ago | (#29325307)

Give it up. Nuclear weapons may be "intended" to destroy property, but they directly and indirectly kill scads of people. ELF didn't "intend" to kill anyone by knocking out the EBS system (a side-effect of knocking out the radio tower), so you aren't even doing an apples-to-apples (intent-to-intent) comparison here, never mind that the number of expected deaths from a temporary EBS knockout is tiny, never mind that your description of the "intent" of nuclear weapons is ludicrous.

There are legal distinctions here, and though ELF may have broken a batch of laws, I don't think that they've committed any official "crimes of violence", meaning battery, torture, rape, or murder.

ELF does not fit the "kills people" definition of terrorist, so they do not fit "every definition" of terrorist.

Re:No (2, Insightful)

MrMista_B (891430) | about 5 years ago | (#29325147)

So, if I burned down your house, that wouldn't be an act of violence?

When in war, bombs are dropped on cities, that isn't violent?

When someone with a knife stabs the wall beside your head, that isn't violent either?

You've got a screwy sense of what is and isn't violent.

Re:No (1)

antibryce (124264) | about 5 years ago | (#29325161)

I've heard this "property damage isn't violence" argument before and it's just as ridiculous now as it was the first time I heard it.

Tonight I'm going to take a baseball bat to my neighbor's car and smash in all the windows. He blasts his car stereo at insane volumes late at night so this is my form of protest. That's not violence? It may not be as bad as taking the bat to my neighbor, but it's still violence.

Re:No (1)

Brian_Ellenberger (308720) | about 5 years ago | (#29325243)

First, damage to property is not violence.

Huh? Definition from from Merriam-Webster: " intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force ". So if the Air Force drops a bomb on your house, that isn't violence? And knocking over a tower IS a dangerous activity that could unintentionally hurt people. I'm sure that proper OSHA procedures were not followed, for example.

And the loss of tower IS a big deal, because so much of our modern technology infrastructure depends on towers. Throwing these people in jail isn't going to "recruit new members". It is going to teach a bunch of out of touch left wing radicals that there are consequences to their actions.

Re:No (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325247)

A violent act does not have to be directed at a human/animal body. I call bullshit!!

Re:No (1)

westlake (615356) | about 5 years ago | (#29325275)

in the grand scheme of things, the loss of AM towers are the tiniest problems facing the nation right now.

It depends on where you live:

Hurricane season runs from the beginning of June to the end of November. The past several years have seen an overall increase in the quantity and intensity of hurricanes in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, the Caribbean Sea, and the Gulf of Mexico. In 2005, there were 28 named storms of which 15 became hurricanes. This proved to be the most active hurricane season in recorded history, causing billions of dollars in damage and resulting in thousands of fatalities. Hurricane Season - Know Before You Go []

It depends on your profession:

WILL AM 580 Agricultural Broadcasting []

Trucking Radio []

Re:Stop this now. (3, Interesting)

JWSmythe (446288) | about 5 years ago | (#29324867)

    No, no, no. No need to group the treehuggers, the illiterate, nor the morons in with ELF. ELF is a bunch of lunatics who strive to be the most notable domestic terrorists. They'll usually burn cars, buildings (every good environmentalist likes a good bon fire, right?), and I guess knock over radio antennas now.

    Since it's decentralized in nature, any nut can say they're ELF. Well, just like any nut can say they're Al-Qaeda. You'd have to be a nut to say you're aligned with either one though. Well, I guess you'd have to be a nut to go around burning things just because you felt they did you wrong.

  Speaking of which, I feel a cigarette has done me wrong, so I'm going to burn one rather than reading any more about Nutjubs Inc. :)

Enslaving the Honey Bees (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | about 5 years ago | (#29325027)

These are the same nutters who think we are enslaving the honey bees. No kidding. []

Re:Stop this now. (2, Insightful)

tres (151637) | about 5 years ago | (#29325041)

don't know what's more funny, this comment, or the fact that it was moderated "Insightful."

It's truly surprising how self-destructive these people are... do they really expect that they will gain support for actions like this? Their movement, and their cause will only suffer for stupidity like this.

Re:Stop this now. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325065)

They should be treated like terrorists and sent to Guantanamo, oh that's right Obama closed it so I guess he'll appoint them to be a czar of something instead.

Re:Stop this now. (1)

jpmorgan (517966) | about 5 years ago | (#29325075)

Perhaps they should just let private individuals do it for them. ELF season!

Idiots. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324727)

What a bunch of fucking idiots.

Re:Idiots. (5, Funny)

digitig (1056110) | about 5 years ago | (#29324927)

Oh, I do hope not -- I hate to think that they might reproduce :-(

Re:Idiots. (5, Funny)

earthloop (449575) | about 5 years ago | (#29325203)

Unlikely. The AM broadcasts saw to that.

REALLY? (5, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | about 5 years ago | (#29324755)

Oh my God, these ELF guys are dumber than a box of hammers. Put their brains in a matchbox and they'll rattle around like a bunch of bbs in a boxcar. Where the hell is the science that shows an AM tower a mile away from your home is giving you cancer? Or hell, a hundred meters from your home? These retards will believe whatever junk science validates their owned warped view and they never fucking question it, defending it to the death. Fuck 'em. Lock these idiots up.

Re:REALLY? [interference] (4, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | about 5 years ago | (#29324871)

But they are right about the interference issue. I live a little more than a mile away from AM towers, and they cause all kinds of goofy stuff. Anything with speakers or headphones is an AM radio here. I had to buy new equipment to get rid of the interference via trial and error with my wallet. I used to dismiss the Brady Bunch episode where Jan's braces picked up a radio station. But now it seems plausible.

However, I assure you I have no plans to bomb it. Although, I'd like give them a 20-foot finger.

Re:REALLY? [interference] (1)

Erinnys Tisiphone (1627695) | about 5 years ago | (#29325237)

But they are right about the interference issue. I live a little more than a mile away from AM towers, and they cause all kinds of goofy stuff. Anything with speakers or headphones is an AM radio here.

But you, being a sensible human being, realized that the solution was to buy shielded cables and electronics, not to trash a radio tower that serves your entire area. Yes, in our digital age, interference is irritating, but radio transmission and EMI is absolutely integral to our lifestyle.

Re:REALLY? (4, Interesting)

cusco (717999) | about 5 years ago | (#29324921)

We set up access control and video monitoring not long ago for an antenna farm on top of Cougar Mountain, near Seattle. At that one facility there are seven major towers and probably at least a dozen smaller ones. A single major tower can support half a dozen 50,000-400,000 watt radio stations, one or two 400,000-550,000 watt television stations, cell phone antennas, police and other governmental radios, and some private short wave antennas. There are at least twenty houses within a half mile, which have been there since the '60s and '70s. This is only one of half a dozen similar facilities ringing the Seattle metro area.

Why is it that none of the "radio waves are going to kill us all" crowd seems to have done a single epidemiological study of people living in this intense, continual, long-term bath of radiation? Instead pretty much all I see are collections of anecdotal accounts with no controls. "They put a cell tower next door last week and today I have cancer" is not what I would consider a definitive study.

Epidemiological studies are not that expensive in the US, once consent forms have been gathered it comes down to statistical analysis of already-computerized data. It's more of a job for insurance analysts, who are actually very well equipped for this sort of task.

Re:REALLY? (1)

Nethead (1563) | about 5 years ago | (#29325127)

What gets me is that these were AM broadcast towers. The first thing I learned working stations around central Washington was to NEVER touch the live tower. Just a look at the transmitter meters will tell you why. Even a Podunk (Yakima) station shows 5KV @ 1A (=5,000W) at the final plate. How did the machine operator keep from frying?

Re:REALLY? (1)

afxgrin (208686) | about 5 years ago | (#29325143)

I take it all those values are ERP values and not the actual radiated values?

Re:REALLY? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325187)

TBH, I couldn't give a rats about their intentions and motivations... but anyone putting the talkback radio shock jock f---wits on AM radio out of their jobs is perfectly fine with me :)

Intercoms? (1)

DaRat (678130) | about 5 years ago | (#29324765)

People still have working intercoms in homes? I thought that those went out in the 70's to early 80's.

Can't you see?! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324891)

It's because of the AM radio! If it were destroyed, we'd all have working intercoms again!

Re:Intercoms? (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about 5 years ago | (#29325201)

People still have working intercoms in homes? I thought that those went out in the 70's to early 80's.

Well, if the technology does the job and it's in your house, what would you do - rip it out? Houses last a long time...

Besides, a lot of people mentally lock into technology that was current when they were young, and never advance their thinking past that point. Case in point: The reasonably new (built in 1998) electrical engineering building on our campus. Our faculty - electrical engineers, mind you - bought into spending lots of money on an ISDN teleconferencing system, even though that was obviously on its way out even back then.

Heck, my wife's 2003 car has a combo tape/CD player (that was the default stereo with that model).

Tagging (1)

Wog (58146) | about 5 years ago | (#29324785)

"Domestic Terrorism: It's funny. Laugh."

Re:Tagging (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324845)

Yeah, it actually is pretty funny.

Re:Tagging (1)

Bacon Bits (926911) | about 5 years ago | (#29324847)

Terrorism? So you're scared of ELF? Really?

Re:Tagging (1)

FlyByPC (841016) | about 5 years ago | (#29324917)

Terrorism? So you're scared of ELF? Really?

You mean you're not? []

Re:Tagging (1)

guyminuslife (1349809) | about 5 years ago | (#29325001)

If you RTFA, you would know that ELF refers to itself as an "international" organization. There must be a couple of Canadians in there or something.

This must mean that this was, in fact, an act of international terrorism, and we must INVADE CANADA for harboring the terrorists.

(Don't worry, Canadians, we'll use high-tech smartbombs that will only kill the bad guys, we promise.)

And, appearently they induce criminal behavior (1)

davidwr (791652) | about 5 years ago | (#29324821)

After all, if it weren't for these towers and their evil mind-infiltrating radio waves, these people would've never knocked them down in the first place!

Vandalism of what amounts to a public resource for political ends is either civil disobedience or domestic terrorism. If it's the latter, they deserve prison time. If it's the former, they should demand to go to jail and wear their prison garb as a badge of honor. As long as the individuals who did this stay in hiding they are nothing but cowards.

Unnecessarily destructive (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324831)

They should have just wrapped the towers in tin foil.

How strange (-1, Flamebait)

pla (258480) | about 5 years ago | (#29324833)

Y'know, I can almost respect them for torching SUVs - If the government won't tell people "No, you may not drive a vehicle that presents a significant danger* to everyone else on the road, without special training for the appropriate license class", then perhaps fear of having their car burn down one night kept at least a few people driving more realistic vehicles.

But radio towers? C'mon, analog radio will follow analog TV within the next few years, with or without an FCC mandate (market forces alone will do the trick, no doubt at all). No need to kick it as it lies gasping on the ground in its death throes...

* This comes from a study conducted by the NTSB, which they then proceeded to ignore completely.

"Almost"? (5, Insightful)

DesScorp (410532) | about 5 years ago | (#29324963)

"Y'know, I can almost respect them for torching SUVs "

If you can almost respect them for destroying someone else's property, then you're almost as much as asshole as they are.

Re:"Almost"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325093)

That only makes the SUV owners the bigger assholes for helping destroy the environment

Re:"Almost"? (2, Insightful)

sznupi (719324) | about 5 years ago | (#29325121)

Not saying that I support the position of OP, but...well, if you paint it in "destroying property" categories, SUVs also fit nicely, with their pointless (with most owners) waste of resources and greater danger on the road...

Re:How strange (0, Flamebait)

phantomfive (622387) | about 5 years ago | (#29325105)

Yeah, it's not surprising though, a lot of people want to use government to force the world to be the way they want it. Environmentalists want to keep the earth as unchanged as possible, even if it means no water for farmers (big problem right now in California). Even if it means chopping 40% off the GDP in order to reduce carbon dioxide output. Or burning houses and SUVs.

Religious people want to make sure no one has sex in weird ways. Poor college students want to be able to download songs for free, even though a dollar a song isn't really all that much. Corporations want to get as much as possible from you, and hippies want to destroy the corporations. The guy who lives next door to me thinks fighting should be legal. I kind of understand, since he is a big guy that would work to his advantage. For us smaller people, suing is a more attractive option.

If I didn't offend anyone in this post, please let me know and I'll do a follow up. The point is, it's not really about cancer, ELF won't be happy until the world is the way they want it to be, which is essentially people-less. And it's hard to say how the world SHOULD be, and throughout a lot of history, we've solved that problem by having kings who fight and kill those who disagree with their vision of the world. The strongest man wins.

In our more civilized age, we now use democracy, essentially rule by the majority, which is only better because it is somewhat less violent. And if enough people think freaky sex is bad for society, well it will be outlawed. Sorry for you if you want to do it. If most people think churches should start paying taxes, then that's going to happen too. It's how our society works, and it's only good in that it's better than the alternatives.

Re:How strange (1)

dtmancom (925636) | about 5 years ago | (#29325291)

You can almost respect them for destroying someone elses car? Then you just barely have morals.

Morons! (5, Insightful)

Null Nihils (965047) | about 5 years ago | (#29324869)

The electromagnetic spectrum [] is not a hard concept to grasp. Radio waves are about the most harmless radiation there is. They have a lower frequency than microwaves, infrared, or fucking ordinary visible light. Are they going to blow up the sun next?

Yet another group of ignorant children playing dangerous games in the adult world. Sigh.

Re:Morons! (5, Insightful)

Ardaen (1099611) | about 5 years ago | (#29324929)

It is easy for us on Slashdot to see how stupid this is. But you are talking about a country where a large portion of the population prides themselves in being ignorant and rejecting good science for 'alternative theories'.

Re:Morons! (2, Funny)

digitig (1056110) | about 5 years ago | (#29324941)

Are they going to blow up the sun next?

Nature is ahead of them on that. Fortunately for us, it takes quite a while for something that size to blow.

Re:Morons! (1)

Volante3192 (953645) | about 5 years ago | (#29324957)

There's people out there who will sign petitions to ban dihydrogen monoxide and swear up and down that windmills cause cancer.

Science is hard.

Re:Morons! (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 5 years ago | (#29324985)

Are they going to blow up the sun next?

They will, but it will take them 5 billion years to complete.

Re:Morons! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325033)

Please..... Don't give them any ideas.

Poor ELF people (2, Funny)

Bromskloss (750445) | about 5 years ago | (#29324873)

Can't you hear how they are crying out "No, his antenna is too small. It will never carry low enough frequencies. Die, you small antenna!"?

Gitmo (-1, Troll)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | about 5 years ago | (#29324879)

Good thing Bush gave us the prison camp at Gitmo, and authorized waterboarding. Now all we need to do is officially declare war on Mother Earth; then these tools can be classified as "enemy combatants."

This is why we need science education (5, Insightful)

Lord Byron II (671689) | about 5 years ago | (#29324893)

Say it with me:

"This is why we need science education"
"This is why we need science education"
"This is why we need science education"

Re:This is why we need science education (2, Funny)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about 5 years ago | (#29325081)

"Please! No! My head hurts! I think it's going to ASPLODE!"

Breaking news from 99Chan: There seems to be a pandemic of asploding heads this school year. Pagans and deists are attempting to correlate the pandemic with recently enacted legislation which requires high school graduates to understand basic physics. Some radical groups are saying "If man were meant to have science, he would be born with it!"

That's News Live at Five - updates at 11:00!

Re:This is why we need science education (3, Interesting)

f16c (13581) | about 5 years ago | (#29325155)

No. We have science education. The bar is set way too low for high school graduates. Physics was an option when I went to high school. I took the class and understood more when I effectively took the same course over in college just like Chemistry and a few others. Now when people graduate from high school they know what they want and not what they should. Science education is not a problem. Science education of a higher order of general knowledge should be mandatory.

Any relationship to SPEW? (1)

Steve1952 (651150) | about 5 years ago | (#29324903)

Any relationship between ELF and SPEW (Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare)?

Misunderstood Extraterrestials (0)

MarkRose (820682) | about 5 years ago | (#29324913)

Looks like Alf got tired of eating cats!

Re:Misunderstood Extraterrestials (1)

afxgrin (208686) | about 5 years ago | (#29324983)

Pussy eating aliens - who would've thought!?

HEY direc tthem to BREIN next (1)

CHRONOSS2008 (1226498) | about 5 years ago | (#29324925)


White House response (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29324979)

Since President Obama has found something to do for the whole of the Weather Underground, I bet our President is eager to find key czar positions for members of the Earth Liberation Front in his administration.

In related news (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about 5 years ago | (#29324995)

Elrond and Legolas entered in the Most Wanted Fugitives FBI list.

Re:In related news (1)

cusco (717999) | about 5 years ago | (#29325099)

Four or five years ago the FBI wanted to classify ELF and ALF (the Animal Liberation Front, not the TV alien) as terrorist groups active in the Untied States. This would have pretty much eliminated their funding sources, which is what their leadership is mostly interested in, and put most of the rank and file in jail. Fortunately they included Greenpeace (which hardly has any operations in the US) in the list for some reason, and their idea got squashed.

And to put the towers back up... (4, Funny)

scourfish (573542) | about 5 years ago | (#29325017)

we are going to need to burn some oil and release more CO2 into the air as we transport workers and materials in the rebuilding effort. I'm glad the ELF thought this through.

Re:And to put the towers back up... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325301)

Not to mention they borrowed a nice diesel powered CAT excavator to do the deed. You'd think real tree huggers would do it with granola powered hacksaws or big wrenches... Oh.. those hacksaw blades were made in a foundry??? I wonder how many moles, mice and anthills they crushed under the treads of that thing when they did it? Of all the stuff they could've hit... SUV dealers, ski lodges, gas stations, etc, they go for a radio tower? Almost sounds like a "hey a couple of guys got drunk, borrowed a CAT and knocked over some towers, let's claim it to get attention!"

It's about censorship (1)

LenE (29922) | about 5 years ago | (#29325047)

These ELF people may not be bright, but I assure you that they know that AM radio will not give you cancer. They took out the antennae because they did not like what was being broadcast from them, and because they could.

In one of their typical "look at me" extreme vandalism moves, they get to silence some major critics pre-emptively, and still get lots of attention.

-- Len

Props to you, honourable citizen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325053)

The poor intercom performance must have been the last straw."

This sarcasm is relevant to my interests!

Doubt it was ELF (5, Interesting)

Nethead (1563) | about 5 years ago | (#29325063)

Disclaimers: I live a few houses down from the station owner, so I've followed this for a while. I was a broadcast engineer in a past life (even did some contracting at a former iteration of this station.)

Here is the story from the local paper: [] (good set of pictures)

From the Seattle Times [] version: "Andy Skotdal, general manager of the family-owned sports-radio station, isn't convinced ELF is responsible, even though the group's North American press office in Washington, D.C., issued a news release and posted an item on its national Web site Friday saying it was.

He suspects disgruntled locals who have long opposed the siting of the towers on 40 acres of farmland may have taken matters into their own hands after losing a key ruling in King County Superior Court a few weeks ago.

"My suspicion is, it's somebody local," Skotdal, whose family has owned the station for 20 years, said by phone Friday as he watched dozens of sheriff's detectives and FBI agents comb the property for evidence. "It could be somebody painting ELF on a banner to throw off suspicion."

In the same story, the FBI sees a few things that point to ELF but they are only a day into the investigation. I'd lay away from making a call right now on who is responsible.

Either way, stealing a excavator, driving it through a muddy field and pulling down two towers has to leave a good amount of evidence. I'm also thinking that the guy wires must have been cut too, just to keep from kill the machine operator on the first tower.

We need to go out on a elf-hunt (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325109)

What we need is a elf hunt. Make it be your typical extermination hunt, such as we had on the Olympic peninsula a few years ago to get rid of the feral hogs that were tearing up the native vegetation. No tagging required, no bag or possession limit, no restrictions on the weapon used (so we can get the bow hunters, the black powder guys and gals, the handguners, maybe even a flamethrower or two).

I wonder what kind of mount would be good for an elf? Typical head on wall, or perhaps a rug?

Next: The Sun! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29325123)

Forget AM towers, have these people ever though about the sun?

- The sun increases the risk for cancer much more that AM radio towers do.
- The sun causes sunburn.
- The sun also increases the risk for forest fires.
- The sun will destroy the earth! Including intercoms!

The sun would attract more publicity than a tower.

Maybe they'll close Santa's workshop to get more elves working on the sun.

Just to be on the safe side (3, Funny)

Punk CPA (1075871) | about 5 years ago | (#29325151)

Maybe AM radio causes cancer, maybe it doesn't. Why take a chance? From now on, I'm only going to listen to FM.

HAH (1)

NumenMaster (618275) | about 5 years ago | (#29325185)

What a bunch of fuckups. lol AM towers, now that's random. What's next windmills? Um, they impede the free movement of air and adversely affect trees and avian flight. Yeah that's it. /pant

One question: (1)

damburger (981828) | about 5 years ago | (#29325193)

If its specifically AM radio, how does the cell detect the modulation and know to become cancerous? Thats one damn smart tumour.

No Predator Drone Left Behind (1)

TrebleJunkie (208060) | about 5 years ago | (#29325205)

We should totally start using armed Predator drones on these fuckers. The ELF, not AM radio towers.

ELF and direct action responsibility (2, Interesting)

Improv (2467) | about 5 years ago | (#29325279)

Number one rule for direct action:

Have your facts straight. If you target the wrong people, or if your science is bad, you're sacrificing credibility and making people angry for no good reason.

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