Microsoft Attacks Linux With Retail-Training Talking Points 681
DesiVideoGamer writes "Over at Overclock.net, a user has posted screen-shots from Microsoft's 'ExpertZone' training course entitled 'Linux vs. Windows 7.' This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion." The screenshots linked show at least some creative interpretations of the state of Linux vs. Windows on a wide range of things, from media playback and video conferencing to ease of updates to (of all things) keeping your PCs "safer." Most of the claims, though, aren't concrete enough to be perfectly refuted. Writes DesiVideoGamer, "I think I now know why, when I enter BestBuy, the employees say the odd lies that they do."
Sign me up... (Score:5, Funny)
This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion.
I'll take the damn course if it'll get me a $10 copy of Win 7.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's completely unethical for bestbuy to go along with microsoft on pushing this course onto their employees. Though I can't say I'm surprised.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Funny)
Why is parent modded troll? If this were the Catholic Church, or the Church of Mormon proselytizing for members, Americans would go after them for violating our freedom of religion laws. If this were a Democratic maneuver for market share, the Republicans would be up in arms. But, it's alright for MS to recruit people to lie to consumers. Parent should be applauded for exercising restraint when he uses the word "unethical".
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Funny)
Like Windows 8...
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know what'd be funnier: Microsoft actually paying people to spend time on Slashdot, or people like you who believe this is even a plausible story. It makes Slashdot appear very important, I know. But it isn't.
They in fact do pay a PR firm (Waggener Edstrom) handsome amounts of money to do lots of stuff, including recruiting shills to "independently" review and blog favorably about their products, including conducting pro-MS Twitter campaigns, and the list goes on. Microsoft's history of astroturfing various forums in an attempt to influence opinion (directly or through PR lackeys) is well-known. The idea that they wouldn't deign to waste their time on slashdot is either deceitful, disingenuous, or naive. We may not be as big or important as Microsoft, but yeah, they've heard of us.
Based on years of reading/posting here, I'd say the above-mentioned mods were out of the norm. They might be just statistical noise, or quite likely enthusiastic MS fanbois, but there is a reasonable chance that MS or their flunkys had something to do with it. There isn't much difference between a fanboi and an astroturfer anyway.
Slashdot stories and commenters have screamed MS is going down for years, and they're doing better than ever now.
Better than ever? Their flagship desktop OS is a flop and losing ground to competitors on all sides; their profitable Office offerings are under attack from several entities such as Sun, Google, and what may be a patent troll lawsuit; their merger/takeover attempt with Yahoo was repeatedly spurned; the EU's ankle-biting has gotten fiercer as of late; their browser, despite a recent and belated decision to properly support industry standards, is steadily losing marketshare; in a booming world of online music distribution their music service failed miserably; and their overhyped mobile platforms aren't gaining much traction.
They may still be the 800 pound gorilla, but that doesn't mean they are a healthy gorilla
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Informative)
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Although the first sentence is true, the last is certainly not true - even if the more expensive product has a lower markup in proportion to cost, it may still have a higher margin.
It may have more gross profit dollars, but the margin will be lower. Margin is a ratio. Specifically, it is gross profits divided by revenue. The gross profit dollars on a large item may be larger than the gross profit dollars on a small item with a larger markup, but the margin itself will be lower.
Example:
Cost of $9, markup of $1, GP $1, revenue of $10
Margin = $1/$10, or 10%
Cost of $95, markup of $5, GP $5, revenue of $100
Margin = $5/$100, or 5%
I might make more GP dollars on the big-ticket
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That is only true if the product as a whole is ignored and each individual component is analyzed. Taken as a whole, the laptop or netbook, if the cost of providing an operating system is $0 compared to $99, then the inverse is true.
We aren't buying components off the shelf and assembling the devices at home. We shouldn't look at the costs that way when it's offered as a complete package.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:4, Insightful)
And this is where I stop reading. Saying things to this effect just so you look like a martyr and get modded up is about as old as sliced bread.
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Also, few things annoy me more than a post that not only assumes the community won't like it, but points it out in the first sentence. "I'm gunna get moded tro11." Cool. Congratulations. Does that make what you're about to say any more valid? No? Then delete the line.
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Re:Sign me up... (Score:4, Insightful)
While I agree with your discussions of the stable API, I disagree that it is the cause of Linux' downfall. Linux will not win any time soon, not because of any technical reason, but because Microsoft controls the entire computer market. Stable API will not change that fact. Device support, which is very good at this point, will also not change this fact. Maybe device creators would care enough to slap a Tux logo on their device if most of the computer consumers weren't ignorant and couldn't tell you the difference between a stick of RAM and a pop tart. Even if Linux had a stable API that was easy to code for, I doubt may device creators would care, because their users are all in Windows, completely oblivious to anything else that might be occurring around them.
And you're wrong - whining about "I"LL GET MODDED DOWN TROLL" is just a lame, idiotic line that only makes you look like you're sticking your neck out to piss someone off, which, of course, is the very definition of a troll. I'm sick and tired of this new fad that Slashdot seems is goes through, which is mostly a mentality that everyone here thinks Linux is perfect. No, they don't. Nobody does. The fanboys might argue that there is some validity and play the devil's advocate, but in the long run you're basically alienating yourself from everyone that might potentially agree with you, which is everybody. What we need is some quiet, calm discussion of Linux' flaws that doesn't involve flaming or pre-emptive flaming, neither of which is going to happen because everyone who doesn't use Linux on Slashdot seems to think all Linux users consider their operating system perfect. Yelling "FIRE" before there's a fire is just stupid.
While we're on that topic, Linux' flaws:
-Audio is a mess, and Pusleaudio is not the band-aid that will cure it; at least not in the state it is in. It doesn't help that distros can't package it correctly, but there are too many switches and levels for even the most simple of tasks.
-Package management is wonderful, but we need to standardize the damn things. I vote for Apt-RPM. Choice is good and wonderful, but not when it is considering package formats. Just pick one so we can finally just post a "Linux" binary on the web that works with every package management system seamlessly. How kick ass would that be?
These two can be fixed now, and if anyone's awake at Red Hat, Debian or Canonical I suspect they will be. After that, Linux must simply wait and bide its time, adding features and fixing bugs until a government agency wakes up and slaps Microsoft for their ridiculous monopolistic behaviour they've gotten away with for decades. The missing link is the OEM's (who have all been bullied or paid into submission), because the average user won't install Linux on their machine anyway - no matter how easy it is, most users don't understand the concept because they've been taught that computers = Windows. Until the point where ignorance is no longer accepted, nobody can crack the barrier, and Linux will not win.
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I'm sick and tired of this new fad that Slashdot seems is goes through, which is mostly a mentality that everyone here thinks Linux is perfect.
That's the *only* issue you have with the slashdot crowd? Wow, you give them too much credit. How about the fact that many people mod down because of disagreement?
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The missing link is the OEM's (who have all been bullied or paid into submission), because the average user won't install Linux on their machine anyway - no matter how easy it is, most users don't understand the concept because they've been taught that computers = Windows
You don't have to bully anyone into producing for the platform that has 95% of the global desktop market.
The OEM system install has been the gold standard in the consumer market for close on to thirty years.
The computer is sold under a war
Re:Sign me up... (Score:4, Insightful)
For example, a true Linux user is never going to be happy with the system, in the same way an objective Windows user is going to find flaws and niggles each and every day and can probably be found reading others' experiences and nodding sagely at the sorry state of whatever bit of software has caused regressions. Being able to discuss these flaws logically without exaggeration and hyperbole marks the intelligent and encourages continuous improvement. I know my own system of choice has huge flaws at present - Java is a complete mess and the new lockd seems to be incompatible with the last iteration causing headaches between 7 and 8 in NFS environments, two major issues off the top of my head from my own testing and there will be more.
What encourages the fanpersons is arguments between obviously sane, sensible and intelligent people who can be objective but have fallen into the trap of becoming defensive over a single issue, such as opening with an unnecessary dig at the zealots which only serves to stir them up. Perhaps the answer is to be a bit more selective in choosing enemies, don't poke those that you have already identified with a stick at every opportunity and be a little more tolerant of those who just may be capable of objective thought?
Oh, and who modded the parent flamebait? Can you honestly say that there are no people using Slashdot's comments just to fan the flames as the parent hints? Can you even honestly think for one moment that there isn't a solid core of Linux/Windows/OSX users for whom the operating system is more important than the facilities it provides and who will hear not a bad word against the object of their affections or who feel superior to those who disagree with their choices? Please, let's have a dose of reality here for a moment.
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This will probably get me modded to hell by the FLOSSies, but what the hell, I got karma up the wazoo. You guys want to know why it makes sense to push Windows over Linux on just about everything? One sentence-lack of a stable ABI.
Wow, did windows built stop using ever newer version of Visual Studio?
Or, did they switch to an non-Visual Studio compiler?
Because Visual Studio ABI for C++ changes with each version of Visual Studio.
I like GCC where the ABI is more stable.
Tim S.
32bit to 64bit transition (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
So please FLOSSies, quit with the "it a M$ conspiracy!" crap
Even if what you said is correct, if MS are being a bunch of underhanded arseholes then I think Linux/Free software people have the right to blast them for it. If Microsoft have concocted a scheme to feed lies to people trying to make an informed purchasing decision (and some of the things they say are patent lies) then it doesn't matter if Linux has no stable ABI or even if Linux kills your pet dog, MS are in the wrong and people can reasonably call them out on it if they want to.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been a linux user for many years, various distros; I recently decided to get myself an up to date Ubuntu capable laptop, that would run wifi, etc without 4 hours of installing ndiswrapper or other weird stuff from odd sites.
Clearly I can order a box from a specialized builder, but I was curious to see of that could be bypassed, apparently not.
So far I estimate I have spent at least 4 hours trying to identify a laptop I can simply walk in and buy from Sams Club, or any major store, and expect it to run Ubuntu and have the devices work.
This is not something Jo Internet should even attempt, or be expected to figure out.
Hardware compatibility lists are basically obscure and useless, and often outdated. The detail is way inadequate.
I like many HP laptop boxes (price quality choice mix is good), but there are so many variants and so little detail on the installed chipsets, no sane person should try to figure it out. Both dell and HP seem to have recently (quietly) walked away from providing ready to go linux on their sites.
So what does the linux community expect Jo Internet to do, randomly buy a laptop and hope it works, until an update breaks it silently?
My Girlfriend (yes, really) recently had a working laptop (HP Pavilion) with working wifi connection (probably the most critical item for most laptop users) which was silently broken by an Ubuntu upgrade. It took me several hours to find the necessary changes, download stuff and fix the driver, security is unavailable. Not acceptable and not someting Jo Internet will do.
I agree with the posters comment that the purist view of open source is impractical in the real business workld of patents and hostile trolls.
If there there was a usable and stable binary interface, and the distro's included the install of closed source drivers, then rational self interest will take over and the hardware manufacturers will release drivers, to enable increased sales of their gadgets.
Clearly there will be anticompetitive actions, which will probably be quietly ignored by our open source hostile and arguably incompetent/corrupt DOJ, (the ludicrous never ending failure of the war on drugs shows the DOJ has no idea what supply and demand even means). Supply and demand always wins in the end. Anticompetitive actions don't really matter in the long run, unless we choose to think they do.
The problem is not linux, or any distro, or the boot, or the desktop, or Gnome vs KD; The problem is that the wise and ancient Self Appointed Benevolent Dictators For Life have slowly become Self Appointed Barriers to Success.
This is a common problem in any form of endeavour, when successful it can grow far beyond the capabilites of the original inventors;
Dear SABDFL's, you have won, the future is going to be open, so take the bows, polish up your egos, do the lecture circuit, write books, FOSS is here to stay, many thanks; now, please let the rest of us do business in the real world.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying we give up the ideals of open source software and the real freedoms and security it provides.
Is enabling closed (redistributable) device drivers a slippery slope?
Not really, it is a necessary evil, so lets not get paranoid, just allow it carefully in the legal licensing and Distros.
I agree with parent post that we need to provide a hybrid? closed source + open source license structure and a usable Binary Interface, so hardware manufactureres have the business incentives to provide working
We all want Jo Internet to walk into a store, look for the fat penguin on the box and know the gadget will just work.
Eventually, there will have been so many boxes sold because of the fat penguin, that business folks may be willing to open source drivers, if that really even matters, (it does not matter to Jo Internet); but until that bright shiny morning arrives, we should simply make it a no brainer for the device driver manufacturers to release working drivers, because it increases their profits.
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Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
I see. "Stable ABI" is the new "Gimp doesn't support CMYK".
Both false, of course -- CMYK is supported by each and every color printer driver, plus color separation plugins, Linux ABI is stable enough that Quake 3 runs on any current x86 Linux box, neither has even a slightest degree of relevance for users.
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Linux ABI is stable enough that Quake 3 runs on any current x86 Linux box
Quake 3 is a game. It is an application. It is not affected by the unstable Linux ABI.
The unstable Linux ABI means that if a hardware company is going to make a driver for Linux, then it has to update it frequently, and that new drivers may not work in old kernels, and old drivers may not work in new kernels. It is a serious problem, and is partially responsible for generally poor hardware support from device manufacturers.
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Try getting ATI drivers to work on a recent kernel and call me back. The drivers are usually at least 3 months behind the kernel releases. (See also the great Ubuntu Jaunty ATI clusterfrak.)
It's not about a "stable ABI" at all (Score:3, Insightful)
They don't have to. Just ask Nvidia about that one.
With MS Windows everyone copes with "you need service pack 4 to run this software" or other indications of a moving target. That's the way a lot of consumer and small business software is. At the big end of town vendors just specify RHEL4 or whatever. In nearly every case the "stable ABI" is there anyway since the ap
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a stable ABI is not equal to a certification program, which is more so what you would like.
Linux already has the largest in-built hardware support of any os, only as you correctly point out you won't know if it works until you try it. So why not test against a standard kernel and if it works give it the linux stamp you so want?
Because the vast majority of hardware manufacturers, especially in the home markets, are NEVER gonna give you their code. It simply isn't in their best interests and it opens them up to the risk of litigation by patent trolls
The card vendors no, the chipset manufacturers, the majority of them will give you specs if you demand them, why wouldn't they? the people purchasing the chipsets for use in cards nee
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Interesting)
Your response is either obtuse or ignorant. The post you're responding to is clearly not seeking an ABI that is merely stable for him, but rather an ABI that is consistent and stable for the entire platform. Suggesting that he sticks to one particular version for himself does nothing to enable him to walk into a store and know that any arbitrary piece of software would work on his system.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Things don't work like that in Linux.
You don't insert a CD with webcam software. If webcam is already supported by the kernel, then you plug it in, and it works without any extra messing with stuff. The "if" is of course the problem, but if there's no driver in a recent distro then it's quite likely none exists at all. Fortunately webcam support is very good these days and I've never heard of a webcam that didn't work.
Regading "which version", it doesn't matter. Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu all support the same hardware. Other distributions of a similar date are unlikely to show any significant differences. You can often see Linux logos on network cards, because the driver is in the kernel, so all distributions get it from there.
Linux does things differently here, and frankly I prefer the Linux way.
The Windows way is: The manufacturer provides their own software and driver, possibly for hardware that's not really their own. Manufacturers like Logitech often sell cameras not only by their technical specs but by the software included with them. For instance, the more expensive Logitech cameras have software that will let you stick a beard on your webcam image in Mr. Potato head style, even though the ability has nothing to do with the webcam itself.
The Linux way is: The chip manufacturer's (hopefully) provides specs. Kernel supports the chip, supporting at once both the Logitech and the Creative webcams using the same hardware, possibly covering 10 different webcams with the same driver. This means that the users of all of those get unified, and if Logitech contributes a bug fix, Creative users get it too. The kernel provides the same interface for all webcams, so that so long it works, the software doesn't care what you have. If you want to stick a beard on yourself, you look for a program that will do that on Linux (haven't looked), which will work both with the most expensive and the cheapest USB1 webcam you can find.
And that's what I like about the Linux way: The webcam is just hardware and works and such. It doesn't come with some gaudy and buggy piece of software to change settings. Every webcam works with the system in exactly the same way.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, I disagree. Webcam drivers and the like DO NOT BELONG IN THE KERNEL. The V4L (or V4L2) ABI should be stable enough where vendors can provide userland drivers and the kernel people shouldn't be worrying about it AT ALL. Specific device drivers have no business being in kernel space. The various ABIs should be stable over the major version numbers: 2.4.x, 2.6.x, etc. The current way is dangerous, sloppy and one of the major reasons Linux has issues like this with off-the-shelf hardware.
I mean, they did that for printers, why not every other piece of hardware?
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I don't like the ABI thing. ABI means more closed drivers.
I like how it is currently. Once a driver goes in the kernel, it remans there. So long anybody is interested, it remains maintained. My cheap, ancient Quickcam Pro remains supported in the latest Linux kernel. In comparison, support is inexistent in 64 bit Windows versions, and there's nothing to do but buying a new webcam.
This is again why I prefer the Linux way. In Linux the user's interest drives the development. In Windows, it's the manufacturer,
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Webcam drivers and the like DO NOT BELONG IN THE KERNEL.
They perform high performance I/O, hence they belong in the kernel.
Specific device drivers have no business being in kernel space.
Everybody else puts them there; why shouldn't Linux?
Most attempts to move them out of kernel space have failed miserably. The latest big failure was when Apple turned Mach into a monolithic kernel.
FWIW, Linux probably has some of the best support these days for user mode drivers, but few people bother.
I mean, they did that
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately webcam support is very good these days and I've never heard of a webcam that didn't work.
HAHAHAHAHA!
I spent ~3 months trying to get my philips webcam working in Ubuntu 9.04. By the end of it, I had only managed to get it to show an image that looks like the output of an infrared camera, and a blank screen in skype. In the end I had to go back to my older webcam, which still requires me to run skype with a script to preload some v4l component.
The webcam support is getting better, but it sure as hell needs work.
Lets not even start on the hell i went through this last week getting my tv tuner working, which was "supported" according to linuxtv.org.
I still prefer linux, but every time i go through something like this, a part of me wishes I had gone for dual-booting with windows.
These are the kinds of things I think people will want to do more and more with their computers in the future, and if the linux setup experience is not easy, people won't want to deal with it and retailers sure as hell won't want to deal with all the complaints and tech support.
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Where did you get the Skype v4l script from? Please share!
I have been fighting with Phillips, MSI, and Logitech webcams and can get none to work, even in the latest Kubuntu (9.04). And of course I have to explain to family members who want to see my daughters online that they still cannot, and when they ask why not I have to mumble some excuse so _Linux_ does not look bad.
Webcams are interoperability devices and so long as they are not "supported" in Linux, other users will only ever hear the word "Linux" w
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#! /bin/sh
LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libv4l/v4l1compat.so skype
this is the only way I can get skype to work right, and it does the job for my cheapo EZonics III webcam.
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OV-519 JPEG based cams are a bit of a bitch to get working; no one wants to put JPEG code in the kernel.
Someone does RPM it for SuSE, but the hunt took me almost 2 hours.
But, really, the problem here is that you're going to the wrong Best Buy stores [improveverywhere.com].
Heh.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Informative)
You have no idea how 'Linux drivers' even slightly work, do you?
No piece of hardware ever comes with Linux drivers. Maybe a few barely-supported things a decade ago, but not any recent stuff.
This is because, unlike Windows, Linux doesn't expect hardware manufacturers to make their own shitty drivers that crash all the time because they're a hardware company and don't know how to write software.
Something like 90% of Windows blue screens post-Windows 98 are because of third-party hardware drivers. XP onwards stopped applications from being able to crash Windows, but there's not a damn thing it can do about shitty drivers. Now they have this 'certification' thing that works somewhat, but hardware companies are not software companies, and still cannot write good software.
This is why Linux drivers come with the kernel, and why kernel developers write them. Of course, the company is free to write their own and submit it to the kernel devs, but that's the distribution point, not some driver CD.
There is nothing stopping hardware manufacturers from saying, in the requirements, 'Linux kernel 2.6.4 or greater', and many, of course, actually do.
In fact, Linux is basically the only OS that you can be sure hardware devices that worked on a version of it in 2000 still work on modern version, which makes your entire premise absurdly idiotic. Linux may sometimes suffer by not having the absolutely newest hardware support, but it has about 10x the backwards compatibility that Windows has. The devices that used to be supported under Linux but are not anymore are probably countable on two hands, whereas there's plenty of XP stuff out there that will never get signed Vista drivers, just like there was plenty of stuff under 98 that never got XP drivers.
This is because the company is in charge of updating them, and they don't give a flying fuck about supporting hardware they don't sell anymore. In fact, they'd rather that old hardware didn't work, because they've got some new stuff to sell you. Whereas with Linux, the kernel people are in charge of keeping the driver updated, and hardware will only stop working if some kernel APIs change enough to break it and no one bothers fix it so it gets removed. (Recently, Linux lost the ability, as it redid its entire IDE/PATA/SATA/SCSI support to be in one unified driver, to read MFM hard drives. Aka, pre-IDE. No one seemed to mind.)
It's somewhat hilarious to hear anyone talk about a 'kernel ABI' on Linux. Man, the Windows kernel ABI and API changes every release, making all hardware manufacturers update, or not, their drivers. Whereas 99% of Linux drivers are already in the kernel, and just change along with it and keep working. It's only the companies that insist on releasing their own drivers that have problems.
Now, WRT to software ABI, there's a valid concern. Or, at least, it was. A long time ago. Nowadays it's trivially easy to release commercial software for Linux that works fine. You put an install script on a CD, you have that either use the package manager (either dpkg or rpm, you can include both on the CD and use whichever one the OS is) or you don't bother with that and just put it in it's own /opt/ directory. Then you stick icons in the right place for Gnome and KDE to pick them up.
If the libaries it needs aren't found, you can install your own, either compat libs for the entire OS, or just in your own directory.
Anyone who can't package software for Linux and have it work on any full-fledged Linux distro made in the last five years shouldn't be writing software.
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BULLSHIT!
MPT008 was dropped when moving from 2.4 to 2.6.
Peracom USB Ethernet adapter stopped working while in the kernel. This is because the device driver writers could not test it, and most likely "did not give a flying fuck". Apparently "No one seemed to mind".
Windows kernel ABI changes in every major release - i.e. every few years. Linux ABI changes in every minor-minor release, i.e. every month. This is especially painful for out-of-distro FOSS devices.
And last but not least: there is no good way to ge
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Sorry, but I have to laugh. You really should take off your glasses with one lense tinted rosey, and they other completely blocked out. Real linux software doesn't "just work", especially hardware.
The subset of 'software' that is 'hardware' is pretty small. In fact, no software is hardware.
Actual software, however, works fine. Companies don't have any problems producing commercial software that will work on any distribution.
And as for actual hardware (Not software that is hardware, whatever that is.),
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sign me up... (Score:4, Funny)
RIM jobs (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Insightful)
At any rate, does anyone think Microsoft is giving Linux too much publicity? There's people out there that wouldn't dream of running linux, and when they're asking questions wouldn't it be easier to say "I don't know, never heard of it" then have some tech person jump all over them with a barrage of answers?
They tried that.
First they ignored Linux. Kept saying it wasn't a threat.
Then they ridiculed it.
Now they are fighting it.
You know what the next step is, right? (It's not PROFIT!, but it's not far either.)
Syn-app-store-tic (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll tell Linux how to beat M$: make a app store. I know, stupidly obvious, but there isn't one built into ubuntu.
I'm running Ubuntu 8.04 on my laptop, and System > Administration > Synaptic Package Manager looks a lot like an app store.
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My problem with the repository system is there is a ton of stuff that is not in the repository. If you want it, it can be a pain in the ass to get it.
For heaven's sake, it's 2009, why the hell do I have to friggin compile every damn piece of software that isn't in a repository? Windows figured this out decades ago, if you're compiling it into a binary, why do you need to compile it in the first place?
Granted, that last statement shows a little ignorance of the way Linux works, but seriously, why hasn't th
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For heaven's sake, it's 2009, why the hell do I have to friggin compile every damn piece of software that isn't in a repository?
Mostly because the people who provided that software didn't know what they were doing. I just untar things not in a repository.
For heaven's sake, it's 2009, why am I downloading and executing random, untrusted binaries from the Internet as the standard way to install software on Windows?
As it is now you have to dump a tarball into directory, run a few scripts while crossing your fingers that all your libraries match up, then make the binary.
If by "run a few scripts" you mean "exactly the same scripts for every single package", fine. I mean, it's going to be ./configure && make && make install.
Where I think you're confused is the library dependen
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If by "run a few scripts" you mean "exactly the same scripts for every single package", fine. I mean, it's going to be ./configure && make && make install.
The GP is an end user. The autotools triple is too difficult for end users. You're asking him to put his bottle in the microwave, set the timer for it, and take it out all by himself. You're supposed to do that, and then jam it in his mouth, and then burp him when he's finished.
Oh and by the way, unless you do that, Linux won't universally supplant Windows, which for some inexplicable reason, the Linux community is desperate to make happen.
No security.
The GP is an end user. End users don't care about security. At
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Is it really any different clicking on an apt-url from some unfamiliar website?
Yes.
An apt-url is a URL to a package that is already in the repository, which means at least there's some minimal assurance that someone associated with Ubuntu or Canonical has looked at it, and some strong assurance that it hasn't been modified since then.
What about legitimate authors who didn't jump through the hoops to get their software into all the various repositories and packaging systems? Should they not be trusted simply because they didn't sign up with Canonical?
Pretty much. Ubuntu is community-maintained, and it's really not that difficult to at least get into the "universe" repository.
Of course, unlike the iPhone, it's always possible for the user to go around this, and I agree, it could be made easier than it
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
YMP (Yast MetaPackage) [wikipedia.org]
It's a nice idea, it's a bit better than floating rpms or debs but I don't know if I'm entirely sold on it. It's been around for a few years and I haven't seen any of the other distros picking it up, so that might say something about it. There is apturl [ubuntu.com] but I know I've never used it or even had the opportunity.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why hasn't anybody come up with the Linux equivalent of the .dmg file?
Linux had disk images for long before OS X did, and it's a terrible way of distributing software.
Seriously, I think you've been brainwashed a bit by the Apple flashiness. Think about what's going on here:
Every non-technical Mac user I know never gets to step 3. They get to step 2, say "Oh, there's my app!" and double-click it. Which means they run Firefox out of a disk image for years at a time, and never upgrade, because the DMG is read-only and Firefox won't auto-update itself.
Compare to:
In other words, the reason there isn't the "Linux equivalent to the DMG file" is because what we have actually is better, and easier to use, when it works.
Re:Sign me up... (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not about to wait until hell freezes over. You see, in Linux, it is entirely common to have multiple different versions of shared libraries and they all coexist just fine. Every single point you made in every post in this thread was blatantly wrong, and shows that you are either a complete moron, haven't tried to use a decent Linux distribution in years, or are a straight M$ shill. Since you are offering up blatant lies about both Linux and Windows, and they all favor the virusOS, I'm betting on the latter.
Ask Jack Schofield! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm thinking of buying a netbook as a second machine for net access and mobile broadband. Should I get one with XP or can I run Linux? [today.com]
M Shuttleworth
Linux has an apparently friendly front end, but is very demanding if you go any deeper. Linux is like the Mooncup: a nice idea, but messy and not for the squeamish. In fact, Linux can be likened to a Mooncup-using redhaired hippie girlfriend who lives in a house in the country she built herself from twigs and has very strong ideas on how everything should be and has all her original body hair. The sex is fantastic, but only if she thinks the astrological conditions are perfect. The house has a hand-dug latrine, so she's propped a toilet bowl on top and thinks that's "user friendliness."
No, no. You would far prefer Windows. That's like a nice normal bottle-blonde girlfriend who has a proper office job and dresses cleanly from Primark and has a sweet smile and lives in a proper bedsit and knows everyone and how to act normally and is accepted in society. She gets headaches a lot and fits of rage where she smashes everything and there's an odd smell of decaying human flesh coming from the drains and the toilet backs up every now and then filling the entire block with sewage and bits of bodies, but this is entirely normal and nothing to worry about.
My four-year-old PowerBook G4 is putting itself into sleep mode and refusing to wake up. It gives a very unfriendly beep and a black screen when it is turned on. Taking out and replacing the memory will eventually bring it to life.
S Jobs
This is a known fault in the Macintosh line, where the keyboards were dipped in vats of herpes virus before being shipped. Mac OS X is well known to induce symptoms similar to tertiary syphilis in long-term users -- ask anyone with Mac-using friends. The G4 has an old PowerPC chip, and is obsolete because Apple has long since moved to Intel chips. So at least you can run a proper operating system like Vista on the new ones.
I have a PC bought from Dell, a proper computer company, and am running Microsoft(tm) Windows(tm) Vista(tm) Service Pack 1(tm). It's the best operating system ever in the entire universe and I can do anything those annoying Mac users and Linux nerds can. And Windows 7(tm) will be even better! I don't have a problem, I just wanted to tell you this to piss off those annoying anti-Microsoft trolls who keep commenting on your Guardian column.
J Schofield
This is an excellent start to a perfect computing experience. Make sure you have only genuine Microsoft software on the system, and donâ(TM)t ever use Firefox in case your penis shrinks -- Internet Explorer 8 guarantees you will get many useful email offers for a greatly increased penis with incredible sperm production capability. Also, Google will invade your privacy and put pictures of you masturbating on Google StreetView, so only use Bing. Happy surfing!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
redhaired hippie girlfriend who lives in a house in the country
Sign me up for Linux...
Reading selectively (Score:5, Funny)
redhaired hippie girlfriend ...The sex is fantastic
Sales Sales Sales Sales (Score:5, Insightful)
Sales and Marketing people have always been people incapable of coherent thought or doing honest work. They'll do whatever they can to get more money. The only thing worse than them are Executives.
But that's just how the world works, there's no use in lamenting this. It's certainly interesting to see this, but there's no need to act like this was some big surprise. Every company acts like this. A society composed of only honest people doing honest work probably wouldn't work - nobody has tried yet, though.
Inconcrete replies? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Windows is safer because it has parental controls." Ooh, check out that argument, a clear attempt to change the subject. A typical geek will start by trying to think of any Linux software that can handle parental controls, and if there isn't one, start thinking of ways to write scripts and set permissions that will simulate it. Easier way to handle it is to smirk slightly, and say, "yeah, like that will keep hackers out." Roll your eyes. Don't let them get away with ridiculous arguments.
On the other hand, Microsoft is right in some of their points, Linux has fewer games available, Linux has less software available, Linux has fewer drivers available. Those are my biggest complaints with Linux too. In fact, they may be my only complaints.
That was a good example. (Score:5, Insightful)
I liked this one:
Linux is safer than windows
The Real Facts:
Are they talking about Linux or Windows? I thought it was quite clever that they could be referring to either, while implying that linux is the inferior one.
Software Freedom Day at Best Buy (Score:5, Interesting)
If Microsoft thinks it's a worthy battleground, perhaps we should as well.
Re:Software Freedom Day at Best Buy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Software Freedom Day at Best Buy (Score:4, Funny)
quality--
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Re:Software Freedom Day at Best Buy (Score:4, Insightful)
It reminds me of the RIAA and indie labels. You may have a better product, for a better price, available under less restrictions and in more convenient formats, and Joe Average *still* buys the other guy's product simply because he assumes that more money spent on marketing means a more polished end-product, and when he finds out how shitty the product they bought is, they only think "gee, if this is so bad, the other product must really suck!".
Like many indie labels, however, while Linux would benefit from the extra market-share of the drooling masses, they're doing just fine so far and so there's little practical reasons for us, people who know better, to worry about it.
Best of luck to the guys participating in Software Freedom Day. I appreciate the work you guys are making, but personally I'd rather laugh at the incompetent masses rather than educate them. I'm an elitist, lazy bastard like that.
what is this 'buy' (Score:3, Interesting)
I recently updated a machine that had not been used in about a year. This machine is on a site license, using the standard MS products. In the update i was greeted wth the MS Office anti-piracy update, and warned that if I did not update I would not know if I had a pirated copy, and that if I did there might be security implications. Of course we had spent a great deal of money acquiring the software, and the update reminded that no matter what, MS could pull the plug at any time, and they would not consider this properly licensed software valid until I added this spyware to my machine.
The cool thing is that Google is taking this licensing deal to the next level with the cloud. The cloud, at least in it's free form, is not all that useful for people who want a little more control over their computers, but for those who are raised MS, it is the next logical step. For all those that have focused on the simplified MS development model, and MS controlled software and hardware, I wonder what they will do in if google has all the software on the backend, and users just have chrome laptops.
This is why I don't shop at BestBuy (Score:5, Interesting)
It's also a prominent reason that I, and most of my friends, don't shop at BestBuy. We all know we'll be lied to from BestBuy. It'd be great to go up to a salesperson and feel confident that any questions will receive carefully considered, honest responses. But, what we get are push-products-sold-by-Company-X-because-they're-our-partner responses. So, unlike 1999 when I went to BestBuy once a week, now I go there maybe once every year. I just don't like their B.S.
Well, that and their policy to DEMAND I listen to their spiel about extended warranties, with no regard to whether or not I, the customer, want to hear that crap.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
DOJ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Isn't this against the spirit of DOJ's settlement with MS? This shouldn't be allowed when on anti-trust probation.
My problem (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't have much of an issue with the list itself. Obviously it's heavily biased, but I see nothing on there that can be called an outright lie.
My problem is the purpose of BestBuy sending staff to a presentation like that. It's specifically intended to give staff arguments to persuade customers to buy Windows. When the real goal of the staff should be to identify each customer's needs and guide them based on that.
It's one thing to make mention of a more expensive product to see if there's a chance of an upsale, it's quite another to be as one-sided as this presentation is. Whether the staff will recite that presentation to any and all customers, or simply use it as input for any customer that asks for examples of why to pick one over the other, remains to be seen. But I have a feeling....
Re:My problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on how you define "help documentation". Compare linux errors with windows'. And seriously, the offline help in windows has never given me any useful info so far .. but maybe it's just me.
Other points (I'll paraphrase, as I obviously can't copy&paste):
Ill pass the dubious use of "compatible" without context again, I'll just point out that at the price point of Photoshop for non-student, I'd rather say that its legal incarnation isn't THAT common.
The sad state of electronics retail... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm surprised that Microsoft apparently didn't even think highly enough of Microcenter to invite them. I guess they are still rather small fish (in terms of market presence) at the moment.
Microsoft must be desparate or (Score:5, Insightful)
they don't believe in their own product.
Why do I say that? Because you don't see BMW giving free training videos to car salesmen comparing their cars to say GM or Chrysler or Ford, do you? BMW lives or dies by the quality and reputation of their products; they don't need to "educate" salesmen about their products. This smells of a desperation move where Microsoft must believe their Windows 7 doesn't compare favorably with Linux on netbooks, so they have to try to convince the Best Buy personnel, who let's face it, don't know as much about hardware and software as they know about marketing products, to push the Windows 7 stuff onto customers.
There have been some studies of performance of Windows 7 beta vs. Linux on netbooks which either have not have been clear win for Windows 7 or worse, have shown Windows 7 in an unflattering light. As for citations, the web sites that I can recall are Phoronix.com, and OSNews.com.
I mean trying to "educate" Best Buy sales people and having Windows 7 "House Parties" sounds a little pathetic don't you think? Did Microsoft do something similar when XP came out or even Vista?
Re: (Score:3)
Why do I say that? Because you don't see BMW giving free training videos to car salesmen comparing their cars to say GM or Chrysler or Ford, do you?
You won't see the BMW training video unless you are a BMW salesman.
But BMW does "educate" their sales force.
That is instinctive in any business that has a sales force - and the automobile manufacturers have been masters of the game since 1896.
New BMW Adds Put The Competition In Their Place [blogspot.com]
Re:Microsoft must be desparate or (Score:5, Funny)
A few years after he left, he is now willing to consider other cars, like the Mazda speed-3. So I don't know what they do in dealerships, but it's sure working.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because people who sell BMWs tend to work for... BMW dealers.
There isn't much of a threat of a BMW salesperson selling an Audi or Lexus.
A more accurate comparison would be an electronics retail store that sells Sony, Panasonic, and 10 other brands. And in that case, you can bet that the manufacturers do everything they can to get them to sell their product.
When I worked for an Internet Service Provider, we sold circuits from many other first-tier companies such as NewEdge and Covad and AT&T. Yo
About them saying Windows 7 "Meets Expectations" (Score:3, Funny)
"Aww, dangit! I got a BSOD again! Well, I knew it'd happen..."
when is Windows... (Score:5, Insightful)
When Microsoft ships a new version.
When is Windows just like Windows?
When Microsoft ships a new version.
You all know that Windows 7 is not like any kind of Windows most people are running but as you should have seen if you RTFA, Microsoft's army of marketing droids still likes to tell people that it's Windows so you know it.
Besides this telling the world+dog that Microsoft is fighting Linux, look at the first mention of netbooks and Linux. The page title is about netbooks but the bullets are on PCs. They are being real careful to not allow the netbook to be labeled a special device or market segment and want it to be considered a limited function PC. The reason why is because if people think of the netbook as another device like say, an iPhone, they know that all the smoke and mirror tricks claiming having Windows is better goes out the windows. Peg the netbook as a little computer and people will think that having Windows on it is a good thing to do and if you put anything else on it, you'll have less functionality. The reality is, these resource constrained devices do more with Linux because Linux and OSS does better and can do more in these small devices. Think about it, you don't see Window XP, Vista, or Windows 7 on smartphones or MIDs devices.
LoB
this is going to be fun (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft Expert (Score:4, Informative)
Pity the bandwidth of the site was exceeded - could not see the piccys.
I am tagging this goodnewseveryone (Score:4, Interesting)
More exposure for LINUX - Its a win win situation (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously if MS has to teach BestBuy employees sales pitches to keep people from LINUX you know LINUX has made an impact on the average joe. All this will do isput the name LINUX into more peoples minds. It'll make people ask questions like.. Whats up with LINUX if BestBuy is trying to show me how much better W7 is VS LINUX? If they are trying to tell me W7 is the best compared to LINUX then LINUX must be up there? Maybe its good enough for me to try it out?
good sign (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a good sign. The fact that Microsoft feels it necessary to attack Linux at the retail level shows that Linux is becoming more and more of a factor in the computing mainstream as well. Thanks, Microsoft, for supporting Linux.
Switched to Desktop Linux -- everything works (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been using Openoffice every since Word 2000 inexplicably stopped working on my XP machine even with a full reinstall. The only thing that was missing was Visio. Fortunately, my old version of Visio (which won't work on Vista) will work just fund under Wine on Linux... also without any messing around.
I used to be an advocate of Linux for people who didn't mind fiddling. Now I would suggest it for people who don't want to have to fiddle, so long as they don't need to get help from their local Windows-Geek.
Propaganda from Microsoft to Staples Employees (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the cheapest way of getting Windows 7? Buy a new computer.
This is true. But...
With pre-loaded Win 7, all you get is a worthless "restore" CD. Running Windows really does require a full install CD unless you don't mind losing everything while reinstalling, which you *will* have to do now and then.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This is entirely impossible, because Windows "just works." It's easy to install software (10 out of 10 virus writer's agree), and it's secure (as long as the network cable is unplugged, and you don't power the box on).
Let me ask this? If it is the user's fault and not the OS, why doesn't anybody have to reinstall Linux due to "OS rot" ? Perhaps you didn't think Linux has users too? And no, not all Linux users are technically inclin
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No profit in free.
I disagree.
Re:And.... (Score:5, Interesting)
No, a company should not slander their competitors to do more business. Propaganda results in an overall decline of the happiness of almost all consumers.
Consumers that are too ignorant to know any better will believe the ridiculous claims of "windows is safer than Linux" and "Linux is hard to update". (apt-get upgrade <-- 10 times simpler than windows bullshit update system). These consumers buy the product, have a bad experience with it (sales guy: Yeah, win vista will run fine on this laptop with POS specs!) then are forced to take the advice of these companies as complete lies and do their own research.
Consumers that know enough about this nonsense in the first place walk into the store with the (unfortunately correct) idea that everyone is lying to them and thus all advice needs to be disregarded.
Now, this means that if a consumer wants to buy some product and walks into the store and sees another similar product with a similar price they must then leave the store, research it, and then decide which to buy. It would help both the consumers and the store if the sales people could HONESTLY and ACCURATELY answer "what's the difference between these two products". Instead of "Well, this one is more expensive, so I get a larger commission, so you have to buy this one."
Re:And.... (Score:5, Informative)
Linux vendors would do exactly the same thing
Except that they don't. Not like this.
Who is to say which OS is safer for example? It entirely depends on what metric you use to measure it
Like, say, which is more prone to being part of a trojan-infected zombie botnet scamming info for identity fraud and/or spreading spam?
I don't blame Microsoft for selling their products. That is what a software company SHOULD do.
If they can't sell their product without bullshitting (or at least keeping it to a tasteful minimum), isn't that a condemnation of their own product?
The only reason these are "stories" is because people [incorrectly] feel Linux is a community effort ...
Actually, they are stories because this is an attempt to bullshit people, and people hate being bullshitted. People on slashdot especially hate seeing people who might not know any better being bullshitted by a cynical, self-serving marketing group. I don't mean to absolve other tech companies (most, if not all, do the same or similar), but Microsoft has long occupied a special place in tech history as one of the most blatant bullshit-marketing organizations ever. I personally have been involved in tech distribution for about 15 years, and no other vendor comes close to their level of arrogance or deceit. I've been to an RSA conference where Microsoft astroturfed a whole session that was promoted as a balanced and impartial hack-off, but instead was a scripted Windows lovefest. I've seen Microsoft flat-out lie to peoples' faces. I've seen them ship free product to people who didn't order it to inflate their "install base" of a particular item.
These are stories because in an industry saturated with kool-aid and known for marketing gross exaggerations and lies, Microsoft stands out as the worst.
Re:And.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm tired of this attitude of "It's okay to lie because the other guy is lying too. In fact, I can lie louder than him". That is exactly what has our government so polarized and dysfunctional. We've gotten to the point of saying nothing is true, there is two sides to everything, and we need to hear both sides, no matter how untrue their arguments are. Telling the truth doesn't seem to count for anything anymore.
Some of these items Microsoft are just flat lies. Selling a netbook as a gaming machine. Saying Windows is easier to upgrade (I can upgrade ALL of my applications on Ubuntu with one click, for a price of $0.00). They are lies and we should call them out as lies. And if you see a Linux vendor lying, we'll call them out for their lies too. But saying all points of view are equally valid and it is okay to lie because the other side lies is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Any educated person who knows all the facts and isn't a moron?
You had too go pretty far out of your way to broadcast your stupidity with that little gem. Now off you go little troll ...
Re:And.... (Score:5, Funny)
I think Slashdot pretty much qualifies, no?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux in its current state on the desktop cannot compete with Win7. OS X can and does.
How exactly does OS X compete on the desktop once you consider even marginal gaming? Look at the department store value bins, the $10 section. People want their cheap maddens, their cheap puzzle games and for some reason their cheap Ghost Recon... Seems like DirectX is the de facto standard.
Outside of this one very specific issue I see both OSX and Linux as great alternatives to Windows. But unless Flash games are your end all be all none of these even try to compete. (and yes I am aware of what titles are
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean like this [walmart.com]?
Re:Linux? (Score:5, Interesting)
I work in the financial market....
I called Microsoft a Zombie corporation (and warned several months ago that MSFT earnings would suck even though most traders were optimistic) and have a neutral rating on them. BTW I am not making this stuff up. I happened to have started in the tech industry (still write quant code to this day), but moved to quant/algo trader/junior trader.
The real problem with Microsoft is that its operating system division is dragging down the entire corporation. Windows 7 is not great. I upgraded a Vista machine (HP tablet) and have to say, not bad, but I only upgraded because Vista was so bad. Would I upgrade my XP machines? NOT A CHANCE!!!
I also use Linux and have to say I am very impressed. Perfect? Nope, but very usable. I actually now prefer the Ubuntu fonts to read. Quite nice.
Apple, and Linux are going to devour Microsoft. The cycle has truly started. And once Chrome gets rolling Microsoft is going to have its hands full.
Look at the reality:
1) IIS cannot and has not beat Apache (even after a complete decade). The fact that a product can beat Microsoft is not widely talked about by Microsoft. Notice how Microsoft stopped talking about its IIS?
2) IE is getting stomped! You cannot deny it, but IE is getting beat by Firefox, Chrome (my preferred) and somewhat Safari.
3) Microsoft has completely lost the mobile business and is getting pulverized by the likes of Apple, Palm, and RIMM. Even Nokia has smelt the direction of the wind with the new N900. They know what is happening and are positioning themselves.
4) Java is STILL around. It used to be Microsoft could come out with a development language or environment and the world would bow to Microsoft. Java is still kicking and arguably is doing very well standing its own ground.
Microsoft has some major issues and Windows 7 will show that things will not work...
When the stock market sniffs the lack of Windows 7 follow through MSFT is going down! Right now the market is divided hence its stock price just keeps rolling around treading water. But when that balance sheet keeps grinding down MSFT is done! I am thinking you will probably be able to pick MSFT shares around the low teens next year.
Normally it would be a bit higher, but the selling will be relentless as people will want to get out of their positions (incl the MSFT employees)
How do you solve this?
1) Fire Ballmer and top management
2) Make a base Windows OS open source (no frills). Not for Linux trumping purposes, but if the Windows OS horse dies the entire corporation goes down...
Windows has become a yolk for the entire Microsoft corporation... In the past it was a blessing, now its a curse...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The Windows 7 drinking game:
Re:Linux? (Score:5, Interesting)
No, I will not upgrade my XP... At least right now the odds are against it.
Let me tell you about something we did...
We used to run Windows 2000 server. And then one day we needed to install it on new hardware. Did not work. So I got the idea and said, why not create a VMWare partition and install Windows 2000 on it and run exclusively Linux servers...
That was 3 years ago! And we still run Windows 2000 server. Recently they tried to install Windows 2008 Server as a virtualized server OS and it sucks completely... But the positive experience with the desktop making us to think about shifting to Linux on the desktop.
Right now the traders have 2 Windows machines and 1 Linux desktop machine. Thus far no problems...
But what we do know right now is that whatever desktops they need, if it involves a native Windows installation it will be the cheapest version with the work horse being Linux.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're like Joe McCarthy without any power...
Guilt by association doesn't cut it. Especially when you have nothing to prove the BS you're spewing. If Obama were a Marxist you'd be able to point to direct examples of why that is the case. You can't, because you're just a right-winger with an axe to grind.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
WOW has rather modest hardware requirements. That makes it one of the few current games that might run well on a netbook. This said, I would not buy a netbook with the intention of playing games.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
ubuntu. hands down, I tried a few different distros and ubuntu was the one that just worked. I install it on my laptop and every piece of hardware works with no issues. Plus any issue you have a quick google solves 9 times out of 10.