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The Pirate Bay Sails To a New Home

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the wonder-if-they-considered-arrrrrgentina dept.

The Internet 244

the monolith writes "Back in August, the company supplying bandwidth to The Pirate Bay was forced to disconnect them. Quoting TorrentFreak: '"It took just 20 minutes before the Hollywood companies telephoned the new host who took over operation of The Pirate Bay," commented Patrik from the ISP which had been indirectly supplying bandwidth to TPB. Despite initially putting on a brave face and standing strong, Patrik's company continued to feel the heat. It is not a large outfit and doesn't have the resources to fight the entertainment industry and its threats. Last night, Patrik could hold off no longer after receiving mounting threats from the entertainment industries, which culminated in threats of a court summons. Having come this far, there is little doubt that IFPI and the MPAA would litigate if necessary. ... On the heels of several rumors today, Patrik said he could confirm news of the move, saying that he believes The Pirate Bay is now hosted in Ukraine.'"

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244 comments

The pirate (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624087)

The pirate bay will never die.

Re:The pirate (4, Funny)

D Ninja (825055) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624115)

Oh, there's some companies out there who would like to arrrrrrrrrgue that point with you.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. I'll just let myself out...

Is it legal (1)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624929)

to force ISP to pull the plug?

2 wrongs don't make 1 right, right?

Re:Is it legal (4, Insightful)

KlaymenDK (713149) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625041)

The question is not whether it's legal, the question is whether the small guy can afford to raise that concern...

Upstream (5, Informative)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625131)

Before more and more people jump in with their stupid whois links domain->ip links saying "look, their ip is 194.71.107.15 and its in sweden"...

TPB is hosted on their owners own AS and ip block "DCPNetworks" which is one of the couple ones they have. It's info is registered to be in Stockholm, Sweden, but its manual info given to RIPE. It doesn't mean its physically there. More so, it could had been there but moved elsewhere later. Lots of people seem to think these geolocations are some magical system to determine exactly where ip location is, but it's all based on manually typed in info when you register with RIPE or other registreries.

What you have to look at is their upstream providers. robtex shows still the old info too [robtex.com]. More so, my own look up goes to amsterdam and leaseweb as their last upstream provider.

Actually this seems to be a fail over system of theirs. PatrikWeb, their only upstream besides DCS and SPACEDUMP, stopped providing bandwidth so their fail safe system kicked in and started providing bandwidth in Ukraine when one of their upstream providers stopped routing. They probably have more providers in place too to pick up quickly.

It's an intelligent system and not a surprise that those who haven't looked into BGP and routing more dont understand what's going on and just point out that the IP space is registered in sweden and dont see it can actually be located anywhere.

Re:The pirate (1)

elfprince13 (1521333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624139)

There've been what, 5 or 6 announcements of "a month left of The Pirate Bay" or "2 weeks left of The Pirate Bay" so far this year?

Re:The pirate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624529)

And the Roman Empire could never fall, and...

The Pirate Bay might last a good while, but all things eventually come to an end. That includes the MPAA/RIAA as well.

The Pirate Bay is for Niggers (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624091)

Niggers laugh and steal and carry on. It's all the porch monkeys are good for.

We need segregation for The Pirate Bay just like we need it for niggers.

Re:The Pirate Bay is for Niggers (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624249)

fail.

Google Purges Pirate Bay? (5, Interesting)

D Ninja (825055) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624105)

What happened to the article "Google purges Pirate Bay from search results?"

It's listed on the front page of Slashdot, but when I click the link, I can't get to it. I want to know what that is about, dang it.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (4, Informative)

Per Wigren (5315) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624125)

It's about this [cnet.com].

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (4, Interesting)

straponego (521991) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625047)

Interesting. I'd thought Google's revenue streams centered around providing the most accurate and relevant search results. Looks like they've punted on that. So there are opportunities for new search providers after all.

In fact, this could go a long way to explaining why they haven't gotten serious about semantic search, which would be the next giant leap in relevance. it's because they'd rather give you pseudo-relevant (but profitable) answers first. This is why when you're searching for reviews on a product, you get sales crap instead. And it also explains why the count the whole page, even navigation/spam crap, as relevant, rather than grouping articles/sections/comments as logical units.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (1)

ACalcutt (937737) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624157)

I noticed that also. Oddly, the Pirate Bay is back in the google results (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=all&rlz=&=&q=the+pirate+bay&btnG=Google+Search&meta=lr%3D)

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (0, Redundant)

Dudeman_Jones (1589225) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624165)

The article about Google purging the Pirate Bay from their search servers has been itself purged.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624261)

This purging was brought to by the Ministry of Truth and viewers like you.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624455)

viewers like you.

Daw, shucks. I'm sure they'd feel different if they knew me better.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (2, Informative)

Rhapsody Scarlet (1139063) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624263)

I noticed this too, so I instinctively took a screenshot [imageshack.us] of my RSS reader to prove it did actually exist.

Anyone from Slashdot care to explain what the hell happened?

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (1)

russ1337 (938915) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624559)

While I didn't take a screenie, I did search the feed and list of articles for some time.

conspiracy thread starts here ----->

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624711)

Yeah its in my RSS reader by /. says The item you're trying to view either does not exist, or is not viewable to you.

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624787)

No clue, but I *did* see CmdrTaco post something about "daddypants" in there earlier, so I'm assuming they had some kind of problem. And they're almost certainly doing something behind the scenes. Not long ago, we had a day of downtime.

Incidentally, I'm disturbed by looking at your RSS reader and seeing just how many of the same websites we visit regularly...

Re:Google Purges Pirate Bay? (1)

Goateee (1415809) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624375)

Theres some more info at http://torrentfreak.com/google-removes-pirate-bay-frontpage-from-search-results-091002/. Including thepiratebay in a DMCA complaint seem to just be a mistake from some companies part.

What does the next gen filesharing tech offer us? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624121)

The Pirate Bay is the first place everyone I know goes for their torrents. Without tpb most people would be lost. What will we do when tpb goes down for good??

I only hope the next major technology in file sharing has some feature that is built in for anonymous use, and can offer single click access to load media files.

Dealing with .rar files for a movie that could have been downloaded as one file is so 1990's...

Something that could combine the best parts of usenet and p2p would be the best long term solution I think...

Re:What does the next gen filesharing tech offer u (1)

Dudeman_Jones (1589225) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624175)

That actually sounds quite a bit like freenet. Too bad that freenet is the slowest thing on the internet ATM. But hey, what you lose in bandwidth you gain in anonymity.

Re:What does the next gen filesharing tech offer u (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624183)

There is a program called graboid that works pretty nicely. I think if someone were to use that model, and add a p2p component to it, that would be a real success.

Re:What does the next gen filesharing tech offer u (3, Interesting)

sqrt(2) (786011) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624395)

Isohunt usually has a comparable or better selection depending on what you're looking for, they largely mirror each other anyway. If TPB ever dies for good the community might splinter, but there will be replacements and word will get around what they are.

Re:What does the next gen filesharing tech offer u (1)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624609)

You mean like googling "latest movie torrent" and using that? (Which is still frequently TPB) And the reason for rar is so the 6 gig movie fits on a fat32 thumb drive. (2 gig file size limit) Crappy reason, yes, but still a reason.

The Powers that Be (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624155)

Some say it's just a conspiracy theory, but the truth is that The New World Order is the dream of many elite. Do they have a secret society? That's hard to say, since it would be a secret, right? If I were one of the elite, however, and fancied a one world government, I would want to get in touch with like-minded people and wage an initiative toward that goal. So if you value your country's sovereignty in the least, consider the threat real. Many want to eliminate The Pirate Bay's every chance of asylum.

Re:The Powers that Be (4, Interesting)

turing_m (1030530) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624465)

So if you value your country's sovereignty in the least, consider the threat real. Many want to eliminate The Pirate Bay's every chance of asylum.

I think it's relatively unlikely that there won't be some sort of movement by those with power to counter the lack of control caused by the internet. We are seeing that now. It would not surprise me if the media mafia kept up the full court press until every last country folds. They have plenty of money and power.

OTOH, their enemies are getting something they formerly paid for, for nothing. Not much money to fight with there. Do they have any allies with an income stream? ISPs are a natural ally - they are not stupid. Without media downloads, porn is the only thing really driving large cap high bandwidth accounts. Sure, a lot of people download a lot of porn, but I'm sure the ISPs would be giving up a large chunk of income if the MPAA were able to shut down torrents of movie downloads.

If the MPAA were to succeed with shutting down torrenting, it's not even the end of technological improvement. We just head towards some sort of darknet. But I suppose that the longer torrents are fairly easy to find and download, the more people come to expect media for free, the more entrenched is the file sharing culture, and the more potential Bram Cohens there will be to code up technological solutions in their spare time. So I suppose this delaying action does serve a purpose.

If the MPAA could even defeat that somehow, cost/GB keeps dropping and local transfer rates keep increasing. We'd have a scene kind of like a souped up version of 1980s tape copying. Except you'd be able to copy the entire year's output of the entertainment industry in a few hours. The only real problem then is converting the media to a DRM free digital version and assembling it in one place.

Keep fighting... (1)

FantasticSpikes (1567797) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624161)

RIAA, MPAA et al, you just keep fighting those pirates. I'm sure you'll win eventually. I mean, just think of all those lasting victories you've had over..um..er..um...

Re:Keep fighting... (1)

bughunter (10093) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624219)

Sure, what's going to happen is that eventually, TPB will find a host that is immune to ??AA pressure. Perhaps it will be a safe harbor that will just let it be a bootlegger -- or perhaps it will be a more demanding host, one that has truly sinister motives, like spreading malware targeted at USAian infrastructure, or even military. Who's gonna be sorry, then?

Re:Keep fighting... (3, Insightful)

tsm_sf (545316) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624377)

No, what's going to happen is that file sharing tech will shift to an even less centralized system, and the **AA will be once again left holding their dicks. The death of the original Napster showed us that these organizations don't really have the first idea as to what they'd like to accomplish, and they will constantly be playing catch-up.

What we're watching is the painful transition of these media organizations to, basically, advertising agencies. Production and distribution have gone from hugely costly endeavors to something you could do in your bedroom. What's left for them?

Re:Keep fighting... (4, Informative)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624511)

There are already decentralized systems out their (Gnutella and KAD for example). Those however suffer from the serious problem that all decentralized P2P systems suffer from though: lack of speed.

The simple truth is that SOME level of centralization will always provide a huge boost in speed, and as such there will always been someone like TPB looking to get a centralized server somewhere that can't be touched. And so far that has worked. The decentralized model already exists, and has for many years, but like always it will simply be a last resort that we likely won't have to use.

Re:Keep fighting... (2, Informative)

trytoguess (875793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624869)

Hmm? From what I've seen as a user of both bittorrent and eMule (the major client that uses KAD), the reason the latter is slow is not because of decentralizing, but because of a different philosophy in data sharing. With bitorrent you only share a file if you're trying to finish a download, or seeding. In eMule one shares dozens or even hundreds of files not related to the thing(s) you're trying to get. Bittorrent only shares data relevant to a persons download relatively quickly, and eMule shares lots of files slowly so one can get a larger variety of files (eventually).

Unfortunately, eMule has become less popular thanks to file sharing sites like rapidshare. Well, at least that's my guess.

Re:Keep fighting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29625105)

That's not true at all. Centralisation is the weak point in the torrent model, as you ought to know, because Slashdot provided the first large-scale test, and the tracker very quickly went down! This is partly why a Kademlia DHT based on the KAD design was later added to torrent, and it makes almost no difference in performance, except during first-block seeding (and torrent has its own, significant, first-block and last-block problems which are design flaws, though mitigation has been attempted - the torrent distribution curve is S-shaped, rather than the optimal - partially due to large block sizes, and the .torrent method of block identification, and not using a tree-hash - there's a proposal for tree-hashing but I don't like the implementation much).

Besides, have you forgotten that eMule's eDonkey2000 servers are centralised in really much the same way as torrent trackers? It went faster when they switched to KAD.

The reason for the speed difference in Gnutella, eMule and torrent is that torrent has excellent choke/unchoke and peer selection algorithms providing fast, individual but distributed response with no involvement whatsoever from the tracker (and that torrent has no long-tail-leeching upstream during active downloads - or indeed at all, another of its design choices that is arguably a flaw by design - and torrents are far more rarely under active attack, and that torrent is somewhat more resistant to active attack).

eMule and Gnutella are simplistic designs by contrast, with rather old, frankly terrible peer selection algorithms. The protocol can be cheated out of its upstream quite often, so people do, and the network can be (and is) disrupted with several attacks. (The same attacks work on torrent's DHT, but they wouldn't do anything much.) The eMule feedback in particular takes days compared to torrent's seconds - but the centralisation has no involvement in that, and the same problem existed in the centralised eDonkey2000 which eMule started as an open-source clone of (and has now outlived)!

There are several networks - for example, G2 and Ares - which are somewhat faster. A few of the networks sometimes approach torrent speed. You can even bolt on good algorithms to rather old, poorly-designed networks (StrongDC, for an example).

The price you pay is "reseed pls!". That is not optimal. That sucks hard. But torrent was really optimised for static seeds, to swarm-proof a centralised download (Linux ISOs, to give a concrete, easily-seen example), and it's not really a weakness there at all.

The only thing that'll ever be faster centralised is initial network seeding, but since that also presents a single point of attack, I don't think that can be regarded as a way forward. Besides, you need to do that only once ever in a properly designed network, and there are some very good distributed strategies for that too - 30 seconds and you're at full performance.

But hey, I'm just a P2P developer. :)

Re:Keep fighting... (1)

rts008 (812749) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624771)

Who's gonna be sorry, then?

Uhmm...the RIAA/MPAA?
Wait a minute, is this a trick question?
Hasn't the same things you propose been happening already?
What's your point then, exactly?

Maybe this will make it easier for you: (I will even use your favorite word 'perhaps' to help you out).

Perhaps it will be like it was before, only out of reach of the RIAA/MPAA this time...perhaps.

P.S. You do not need the comma between 'sorry' and 'then' in the sentence I quoted from your comment, as it is superfluous. ;-)

Re:Keep fighting... (2, Insightful)

russlar (1122455) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624341)

Last I checked, one of the "A"'s in MPAA and RIAA stood for "America". Also, last I checked, neither Sweden no the Ukraine were in America.

Re:Keep fighting... (4, Informative)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624679)

Last I checked, one of the "A"'s in MPAA and RIAA stood for "America". Also, last I checked, neither Sweden no the Ukraine were in America.

Yeah, but the OTHER 'A' stands for Ass. and there are Asses in ALL countries!

Re:Keep fighting... (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624793)

The term "RIAA" is often used as short-hand for "the group of multinational recording companies behind the US RIAA and similar organizations throughout the world", with a similar thing happening for the MPAA.

In fact, most of the RIAA and MPAA members are European, not American, yet being large multinationals they have the money (and therefore, political power) to push their ideas anywhere be it the US, Sweden, or likely Ukraine as well.

Re:Keep fighting... (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624885)

neither Sweden no the Ukraine were in America.

You obviously need to vote another Bush into power quickly.

It will be interesting to see what impact this has on Ukraine's image. Will it appear more or less respectable to the masses? Is Borat going there any time soon? Will Ukrainian tractor sales figures return to the front page of the FT?

Re:Keep fighting... (0, Troll)

rts008 (812749) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624903)

Last I checked, one of the "A"'s in MPAA and RIAA stood for "America"

Last time I checked, America consists of:
1.North America
  a. Canada
  b. USA
  c. Mexico

2. Central America
  a. Belize
  b. Costa Rica
  c. El Salvador
  d. Guatemala
  e. Honduras
  f. Nicaragua
  g. Panama

3. South America
  a. Argentina
  b. Bolivia
  c. Brazil
  d. Chile
  e. Colombia
  f. Ecuador
  g. Falkland Islands (United Kingdom)
  h. French Guiana
  i. Guyana
  j. Paraguay
  k. Peru
  l. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
  m. Suriname
  n. Uruguay
  o. Venezuela

1, 2, and 3, are known collectively as 'the Americas'.

If you are going to be a pendant, then go all the way...otherwise you are a half-ass moron, wasting everyone's time...including your own.
America is not just the USA. America encompasses North, Central, and South America...get over it. The USA only accounts for 1/25th of 'American' Sovereign Nations/States.

P.S. I understand that /. is a USA based site, but if we can argue semantics/grammar NAZI for other topics, then why is one this taboo?

Yes? And your point was? (1)

Mathinker (909784) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625081)

The great success of TPB in the Swedish courts up to now leads one to believe that your comment probably shouldn't get all the way up to +5 Insightful. I do agree, however, that it does make it harder for the **AAs (or other national commercial content orgs) to shut things down when the servers are in foreign countries whose economies are less dependent on selling content.

host the servers in antigua (5, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624169)

they are invulnerable:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/21/business/worldbusiness/21iht-wto.html [nytimes.com]

PARIS -- In an unusual ruling Friday at the World Trade Organization, the tiny Caribbean nation of Antigua won the right to violate copyright protections on goods like films and music from the United States - worth up to $21 million - as part of a dispute between the two countries over online gambling.

The award comes after a WTO decision that Washington had wrongly blocked online gaming operators on the island from the American market at the same time it permitted online wagering on horse racing.

Antigua and Barbuda had claimed annual damages of $3.44 billion. That makes the relatively small amount awarded Friday, $21 million, something of a setback for Antigua, which had been struggling to preserve its booming gambling industry. The United States had claimed that its behavior had caused only $500,000 damage to the Antiguan economy.

Yet the ruling is significant in that it grants a rare form of compensation: the right of one country, in this case, Antigua, to violate intellectual property laws of another - the United States - by allowing them to distribute copies of American music, movie and software products, among other items.

i mean of course its all bullshit. the concept of intellectual property makes no moral, financial, logical, or philosophical sense in the internet age. but i guess we have to wait a few years for the vanguard of ignorant dinosaurs to die off

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624561)

If you think about it, the media industry is a joke. I mean they are pretty much the only industry who never got the US to attack another nation for it, or at least let people in other countries die for at.

Or is it because they "sell" something that is on physical resource?

So I wonder, when the US will attack Antigua and nuke it out. :(

Re:host the servers in antigua (2, Interesting)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624575)

i mean of course its all bullshit. the concept of intellectual property makes no moral, financial, logical, or philosophical sense in the internet age. but i guess we have to wait a few years for the vanguard of ignorant dinosaurs to die off

Of course, you could not be more wrong if you tried. Those "dinosaurs" as you call them are being very quickly replaced by young 20 somethings that are creating new and interesting content. They need capitol to do this, they need to hire good coders, designers, graphic artists, admin's the entire gamete of people it takes to pull something like that together and get the attention of the audience, not to mention the cost of rendering farms and big internet pipes to distribute all this content. Like it or not, those people don't live on being "elites" or whatever the current cool phrase is for those with the drive and talent to create all of that content, they have mortgages to pay, insurance, you know like people who have actual lives

Rampant theft of the programs they write causes more then just people not making HUGE "profit" it causes the VC people to look elsewhere to invest which in turn causes all this new and interesting content to be still born.

Put yourself in the VC's place. You have the cash to invest, and someone comes to you with an actual business plan, backed up by a decent demo, with realistic projections for sales. The VC asks, "How are you going to control distribution?" The problem is there is no good answer to give. The VC thinks about it and simply decides that the risk outweighs the possible return and says, "Hey great idea, but with all the pirating out there, how many copies do you realy think you are going to sell? Sorry kid, great idea, but just can't risk the money."

There are a great many things that can be produced from the effort of many people working small amounts of time, and over along period can produce something worth using. GIMP is a fine example, It took the efforts of a great many people, mostly working part time, a great deal of time to come up with something that comes close to challenging Photoshop. Unfortunately things likes games have a far shorter lifespan, whats col today might not be so cool 6 months from now and then its on the scrap heap but not because it was executed poorly or the writers and designers had poor imagination but because peoples taste in entertainment changes just that fast. When it coasts millions of dollars to put that one really cool game together, the people that made it happen want to make money and more then just breaking even because the risked a LOT to get it out the door.

So give me an actual reason why they should not profit from the efforts, why they should not earn whatever the market will bare on EVERY copy sold, and why they should expect people to buy one and then post it on TPB or some other equivalent?

Real actual reasons, not "information wants to be free" rhetoric but actual concrete logical reasons.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624629)

Of course, you could not be more wrong if you tried. Those "dinosaurs" as you call them are being very quickly replaced by young 20 somethings that are creating new and interesting content. They need capitol to do this,

Heeelarious freudian slip dude.

Besides that your brain is broken, its stuck on believing that charging for distribution is the only way to compensate content creators for their efforts. Just because that's the way it has most obviously been done for the past century or two doesn't mean that's the only way it can or even should be done. And now you are going to demand that I explain stuff that's been discussed to death thousands of times before on this site alone - use google and learn a thing or two on your own.

Re:host the servers in antigua (0, Flamebait)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624841)

Nice deflection, but no reason. A true TBP fan boi if one ever existed.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

trytoguess (875793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624921)

...What slip are you referring to?

There's the old(er) way where rich people payed people commission to do a myriad of art. That doesn't help the people (video game makers/novelists/programmers/all of the tv and movie industry) who need/want many people to pay a pittance. There's the make money off concerts (and I guess merchandise) route, which might work for some form of media like music, but doesn't help the aforementioned groups. And of course there's open source which has a few examples of profitability. Have I missed any?

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624889)

Put yourself in the VC's place. You have the cash to invest, and someone comes to you with an actual business plan, backed up by a decent demo, with realistic projections for sales. The VC asks, "How are you going to control distribution?"

My response: "Why would I need to do that? Were you actually paying attention during the business plan presentation?"

Unfortunately things likes games have a far shorter lifespan, whats col today might not be so cool 6 months from now and then its on the scrap heap but not because it was executed poorly or the writers and designers had poor imagination but because peoples taste in entertainment changes just that fast.

Others, like Doom, last forever. And still others, like Nexuiz, evolve constantly.

It's funny that you used an example like The Gimp, but you seem unable to grasp the idea that a game could be open source.

So give me an actual reason why they should not profit from the efforts, why they should not earn whatever the market will bare on EVERY copy sold, and why they should expect people to buy one and then post it on TPB or some other equivalent?

First, I should make one thing clear: I am not GP. I'm saying this pre-emptively because there's a common problem on Slashdot of assuming that the person replying to you is the same person you replied to.

I don't agree that intellectual property makes absolutely no sense.

The problem is that it's unenforceable.

Remember Prohibition? While I believe it goes against the spirit of this country, you could indeed make a moral, financial, logical, or philosophical argument for banning liquor.

The problem is, you can't ban liquor. Not only that, but the cost of trying to do so is too high -- organized crime. We're seeing the same thing with drugs, and the only reason we tolerate it is that the organized crime is mostly not in this country, it's in Mexico.

So, intellectual property is similar. Whether or not it's a good idea, the costs of enforcing it are too high.

In fact, it's less obvious with games, but let me illustrate that with music... At least here, it's probably possible to avoid infringing anything by recording every sound yourself. But there's a whole genre of music -- legitimate, interesting, creative music -- which is legally difficult or impossible.

Go watch Good Copy Bad Copy. That's a movie you can legally pick up from your local torrent tracker, by the way.

In particular, pay attention to The Grey Album and Girl Talk. The Grey Album would be difficult to make, following copyright law -- you'd need Jay-Z and The Beatles to agree, and you'd probably need tons of money to pay for it. But Girl Talk is actually impossible -- as he says, he'd need millions of dollars, and it'd take decades, assuming everyone agreed -- I don't think there's compulsory licensing for remixes.

Yet without copyright, or simply ignoring the law, that kind of remixing suddenly works.

Or, take your argument of risk... Apple refuses to implement Theora because they're concerned that someone may have "submarine" patents against it. But truthfully, there might be a submarine patent against anything -- . Patents have become so comprehensive, the patent office is so bad at filtering them, and the cost of a legal defense even if you're right is so high, that I don't see why anyone would take a risk on any sort of commercial software development, since it's impractical to ensure you're not infringing on something.

Take away software patents, at the very least, and the cost is pretty much patent trolls and any company which only works on codecs. But we have plenty of companies who would benefit from better codecs, and it seems doubtful that we'd stop seeing codecs.

And take away software patents, and suddenly, it's actually feasible for someone to build a computer business out of their garage -- as opposed to right now, where you'd have to hire an army of lawyers first.

So, I'm actually not sure what a real solution is. But the criticism is valid, and it's not just "information wants to be free". Information will be free anyway. The real question is, what are you going to do about it?

Re:host the servers in antigua (5, Insightful)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624599)

the concept of intellectual property makes no moral, financial, logical, or philosophical sense in the internet age.

Uhhhh, that is a little bit of bullshit right there.

1) Morality -- Are you really bringing copyrights into the realm of Good, Bad, Evil, and Virtuous? Really? Copyrights themselves are intrinsically evil? Copyrights lack character and fail to conform to current standards? Are you going to tell me there are passages in the bible about how thou shall not create intellectual property and restrict distribution and sale of thou works?

I am not buying that. Current copyrights are of course way off balance and are clearly corrupt tools of a few mega-rich groups of people. However, the idea of myself being granted a temporary group of legal protections under the law to ostensibly allow me to make a living off my creative works is not immoral, evil, indication of bad character, incorrect behavior, or outside of the norm.

2) Financial -- Huh? It makes perfect financial sense. Without the copyrights there is no incentive to be paid at all for your works unless you are DIRECTLY the one performing them or distributing the media they are contained on. Point of sale or performance only. What would stop a megacorp from just copying your works and using their existing infrastructure and wealth to distribute your creations? Nothing. Nothing at all. Put bluntly, the only way to get paid for your work outside of charitable contributions and direct performances is copyright.

3) Logical. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The thinking behind copyright is valid and reasonable. It's implementation may be horrifically flawed and may be arguably harmful to society, but that hardly justifies calling it illogical.

4) Lacking any philosophical sense -- Who the hell are you? No, seriously, not trolling here.. Who the hell ARE YOU?? WOW. You're going to sit there and make absolute statements about philosophy like that? Sorry, you don't get to state absolutes like that.

Owning ideas is as valid a philosophy as not being able to own ideas. There IS a "sense" to it. The idea of copyright is reasonable. You're idea of how our creative works should be treated and expressed, is also reasonable.

Now, I don't mean to make any assumptions about you, but you clearly fall into the category of "Imaginary Property" IMO. That's okay. You can argue for a society in which there are no copyrights or patents, or protections on creative works of any kind. That is a philosophical exercise and I will leave it you without denigrating your position (your presentation leaves a heck of lot to be desired).

However, although your little ditty may sound good, it was neither reasonable nor valid. If you want to argue that intellectual property is not a good thing for society than make some cogent arguments. Not the trolling that you are doing here. It does not serve copyright reform, nor does it serve to promote your ideas either.

Your post makes you sound like a bigot.

Re:host the servers in antigua (5, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624649)

Morality -- Are you really bringing copyrights into the realm of Good, Bad, Evil, and Virtuous?

Freedom of speech is good and virtuous.
Copyrights are restriction on freedom of speech, ergo they are the opposite of good and virtuous.
You connect the dots.

2) Financial -- Point of sale or performance only.

Bingo was his nameo!

What would stop a megacorp from just copying your works and using their existing infrastructure and wealth to distribute your creations?

Absolutely nothing. So don't give it away at the point of sale for less than it is worth. Then it doesn't matter if megacorp spends their own money to distribute a million copies, the creator's been paid and all those copies megacorp has distributed are just free advertising for the creator's next work.

3) Logical. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The thinking behind copyright is valid and reasonable.

Maybe that was true before the internet made copyright enforcement impossible, now -- under current conditions -- is quite logical to say that copyright is entirely unreasonable.

Owning ideas is as valid a philosophy as not being able to own ideas.

Yes indeed, just as sensible as legislating pi to be exactly 3.14. With out billions of dollars spent on lawyers guns and, er, money, copyright could never even pretend to exist. But the free distribution of ideas, well that takes exactly zero dollars to make happen, its the natural state and has been since the dawn of man sitting around campfires reciting oral traditions.

Copyright isn't even the ownership of an idea anyway, its the ownership of the right to distribute that idea.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Vahokif (1292866) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625101)

2) Financial -- Point of sale or performance only.

Bingo was his nameo!

And what exactly is to stop a publisher just stealing an author's book and printing it without him seeing a penny? Or a software company ripping off a GPL project without giving anything back?

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625115)

And what exactly is to stop a publisher just stealing an author's book and printing it without him seeing a penny?
Or a software company ripping off a GPL project without giving anything back?

"So don't give it away at the point of sale for less than it is worth"

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Vahokif (1292866) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625135)

That's not an answer at all. You expect authors to sell books at five year's worth of income so they can still make a living when a publisher steals it? How does that help GPL?

Re:host the servers in antigua (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29625113)

Absolutely nothing. So don't give it away at the point of sale for less than it is worth. Then it doesn't matter if megacorp spends their own money to distribute a million copies, the creator's been paid and all those copies megacorp has distributed are just free advertising for the creator's next work.

Thing is Mega corp can buy one copy from you then produce more copies at a lesser price than you because of: a) economies of scale b) they did not have to spend time researching and creating the work.

Thus if there were no copyright some artist might have spent 5 years of his life creating a piece of work and then sells them. MegaCorp then sees that the peice of work is good. Buys one copy and sells them for a slightly lower price while waiting for the next schmuck who wastes away a few years of their life creating something so that they can also copy that and sell it for a lower price.

-
I find it so funny that Slashdot is so against copyright especially since the IT industry is so dependent on copyrights and patents in order to function, its like most of the people in Slashdot is wishing their jobs away. As a dentist I'm so glad that the copyright issue does not affect me directly. But if I were a programmer or an engineer and there were no patents or copyrights in place... its gonna be a hell of a job (or lack there of) to find a way to bring food to the table.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625141)

Thing is Mega corp can buy one copy from you then produce more copies at a lesser price than you

"So don't give it away at the point of sale for less than it is worth"

I find it so funny that Slashdot is so against copyright especially since the IT industry is so dependent on copyrights and patents in order to function, its like most of the people in Slashdot is wishing their jobs away.

Shows what little you know. Most software development is custom work, off the shelf has been a growing but still minority piece of the pie.
For the most part patents and copyrights have caused stagnation and massive amounts of overhead in the industry - just look at the huge number of "defensive patents" that any large tech corp holds today - they never intend to use the patents to generate revenue or even necessarily any actual products, only to protect themselves from the occasional patent troll, and to keep the little guys - the real innovators - out of the market.

As a dentist I'm so glad that the copyright issue does not affect me directly.

Which is probably why you haven't thought very deeply about it either.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624879)

I am not buying that. Current copyrights are of course way off balance and are clearly corrupt tools of a few mega-rich groups of people. However, the idea of myself being granted a temporary group of legal protections under the law to ostensibly allow me to make a living off my creative works is not immoral, evil, indication of bad character, incorrect behavior, or outside of the norm.

Only because you judge it so. Despite your ridiculing in the first paragraph, your whole argument isn't about how the concept of morality is inapplicable to that of copyright, but rather than it is but it should be judged as "good". Which is, of course, a matter of personal opinion.

2) Financial -- Huh? It makes perfect financial sense. Without the copyrights there is no incentive to be paid at all for your works unless you are DIRECTLY the one performing them or distributing the media they are contained on. Point of sale or performance only. What would stop a megacorp from just copying your works and using their existing infrastructure and wealth to distribute your creations? Nothing. Nothing at all. Put bluntly, the only way to get paid for your work outside of charitable contributions and direct performances is copyright.

It isn't the only way, it doesn't make *perfect* financial sense when the ability to losslessly copy any creative work for almost nothing is so prevalent, and discussing your "megacorp" argument would be beating down a dead horse. Don't assume it's a settled matter when it's not.

3) Logical. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The thinking behind copyright is valid and reasonable. It's implementation may be horrifically flawed and may be arguably harmful to society, but that hardly justifies calling it illogical.

This point I'll give you, it is a logical concept (at least on its face), but so is its opposite, that there should be no copyright.

4) Lacking any philosophical sense -- Who the hell are you? No, seriously, not trolling here.. Who the hell ARE YOU?? WOW. You're going to sit there and make absolute statements about philosophy like that? Sorry, you don't get to state absolutes like that.

My guess is that he's referring to the area of Philosophy called Ethics which, yes, deals exactly with things like this. And given that there are very good arguments to make in all three of the most widespread currents in Ethics against copyright, I'd say his comment is well justified. There are, of course, very good arguments to make in *favor* of it as well, but that's why it isn't a settled matter yet, isn't it?

However, although your little ditty may sound good, it was neither reasonable nor valid. If you want to argue that intellectual property is not a good thing for society than make some cogent arguments. Not the trolling that you are doing here. It does not serve copyright reform, nor does it serve to promote your ideas either.

I'd say the same about yours. You could argue that a post so lacking in logical arguments deserved no better, of course, but then again he'd probably be able to claim the same thing with respect to this whole Pirate Bay charade where the biggest argument making any bit of sense that's come from the RIAA has been "we believe this hurts our profits, and we don't like that".

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

Wildclaw (15718) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624931)

Copyright

Intention: To funnel money into the hands of those who own capital.
Method: Restricting the spread of information, making the common man less wealthy.
Excuse: Increasing the creation of information. (Note the exchange between creation and spread, which mostly benefits the rich at the cost of the poor)
Way of Profit: Ensure that the common man spends most of his entertainment budget on highly marketed low margin cost items, leaving less money for artists who make their money on non-copyrighted sales, such as performances or other services.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

twakar (128390) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624965)

Tell us how you really feel... Please don't sugarcoat it with well thought out rebuttals to blanket statements that are lacking in substance and anything at all to back them up. Also, where the hell is the ad hominem attack? This is /. after all. Sheesh, just can't get any good posts around here anymore.

Was OK, until the "philosophy" over-reaction (1)

Mathinker (909784) | more than 4 years ago | (#29625159)

Lacking any philosophical sense -- Who the hell are you? No, seriously, not trolling here.. Who the hell ARE YOU?? WOW. You're going to sit there and make absolute statements about philosophy like that? Sorry, you don't get to state absolutes like that.

Of course he does. You didn't read the fine print which is written between the lines that, except for statements of fact, everything which is stated on forums on the net are personal opinions? IMO, statements about philosophy are automatically not statements of fact.

Owning ideas is as valid a philosophy as not being able to own ideas. There IS a "sense" to it. The idea of copyright is reasonable. You're idea of how our creative works should be treated and expressed, is also reasonable.

I have a bit of trouble here. You believe that "property" should include, in its definition, something which, in order for it to be useful, has to be distributed to and used freely by others? Because I cannot think of any way we could actually be having this conversation on this forum except that you have just distributed a lot of ideas to me and I have processed them in my brain in order to generate this response which is a lot of ideas I am distributing back to you.

Even copyright doesn't go that far --- it is impossible to copyright an idea, one can only copyright the formalization of an idea in a particular, expressive, work. To which the original poster would certainly add: "whatever that means". And he'd probably be right. For example, I'm pretty sure that the MPAA and Marvel would have something to say in court if I would try to sell a film starring an "Arachnoman" superhero with powers identical to Spiderman. Unless, of course, it was obviously a parody.

Re:host the servers in antigua (1)

misnohmer (1636461) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624749)

Yea right. The second Pirate Bay sets up shop there, anonymous reports about terrorist training camps in Antigua will suddenly come to light. A few carpet bombings later this will no longer be an issue.... Antigua who?? Oh, you mean that big crater in the North Atlantic?

KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624171)

Always the hell holes of the world attract the sleeze of the world, like flies to shit.

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (1, Funny)

Colonel Korn (1258968) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624217)

Always the hell holes of the world attract the sleeze of the world, like me to Slashdot.

fixed.

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (4, Informative)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624281)

Ukraine isn't Communist [cia.gov]. Go back to school, starting with the fourth grade.

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624467)

But a hellhole it is, and the attracts flies like shit is fitting as well. Communistic? Not politically anymore, but socio-economically, then yes. http://kgb.com/ [kgb.com]

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624837)

Cincinnati Bell doesn't provide service to Ukraine, knothead.

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624479)

Ukraine isn't Communist [cia.gov]. Go back to school, starting with the fourth grade.

It was when I was in the fourth grade.

Re:KOMMIES TO THE RESCUE !! (2, Funny)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624819)

"Always the hell holes of the world attract the sleeze of the world, like flies to shit."

Is that why we have so many corrupt, bribed, traitors in our US Government?

distribute tracking/hosting? (1)

dziman (415307) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624177)

Distribute torrent trackers and web hosting. That way, as long as there are enough people hosting torrents from the tracker, it remains alive.

Re:distribute tracking/hosting? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624305)

The problem with this is the issue of trust. Despite the vast quantity of malware out there, torrent files on various trackers *can* still be policed. However, without a central authority, this is not the case, because, as is demonstrated by the field of cryptography: without any sort of central authority, one cannot guarantee the authenticity of any communication party over an insecure medium. So, there would be no way to determine that your distributed version of the page/torrent is actually the correct (uninfected) version.

The only way you could create such a network would be to use public keys, which would require each user to build a network of his/her own trusted users (or trust those in a chain of users--a rather dangerous proposition). This would make it very difficult to efficiently/effectively share files with trustworthy clients.

Of course, you can further obfuscate a torrent/site by having another "trusted party" host hashes to given versions of the sites themselves, but that still leaves a burden on someone to host those hashes. (Interestingly, though, that is something that could--and to some extent does--exist in the current generation of Peer-to-Peer file-sharing.)

It's possible the technology above exists and I'm simply ignorant of it (I've yet to try Freenet, actually). Regardless, it doesn't look like a next-generation file-sharing method is going to become mainstream anytime soon--the torrent fight will probably rage on a while longer, probably until all possible hosting countries are exhausted. I do pray that torrents aren't eliminated however, and that piracy (to some degree) is allowed to continue, if only to further democratize a corporate system.

TPB still in .se (3, Informative)

kokoko1 (833247) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624179)

The 'host' command says TPBay is still in Sweden
host thepiratebay.org
thepiratebay.org has address 194.71.107.15

whois says this IP belong to some provider in .se
whois 194.71.107.15

Re:TPB still in .se (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624507)

You need to dig a little deeper.
TPB has it's own provider independant IP addresses that can be moved around the world. The fact that a Swedish company operates them doesn't matter. Neither does the country part below, because that is not dependant on actual physical location.

  inetnum: 194.71.107.0 - 194.71.107.255
  netname: DCP-ANYCAST-DNS
  descr: DCP-NEWORKS
  country: SE
  status: ASSIGNED PI

Re:TPB still in .se (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624705)

DNS can be slow at times. Propagation may take 24-48 hours to filter downstream in worse-case scenarios.

Desperation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624191)

The media mafia is getting real desperate these days i see.

It's like a soap opera. But funny!

This time around they prolly paid a few dozen people a crapload of money to put pressure on this isp. And the end result? The pirate bay is down for um.. A day?

hahahahaha!

I hope someone is taking notes. You'll be able to write a book someday soon. "How NOT to defend a dying industry"

Why bother? (4, Insightful)

Hailth (1479371) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624209)

People trying to get rid of the pirate bay act as if removing a tool for sharing will put an end to the desire to share that drives the ability to find new tools to do it.

Re:Why bother? (5, Insightful)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624303)

The industry will be satisfied when they gain the ability to monitor everyone's net connection for signs of "illicit filesharing activity." If you think I'm joking, watch the kind of legislation the entertainment lobbies put their weight behind.

Re:Why bother? (1)

FireFury03 (653718) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624789)

The industry will be satisfied when they gain the ability to monitor everyone's net connection for signs of "illicit filesharing activity." If you think I'm joking, watch the kind of legislation the entertainment lobbies put their weight behind.

The current proposals in the UK (which the government seem to be firmly standing behind) is to chop someone's internet connection after receiving 3 accusations of copyright infringement. No courts involved.

Still, it shouldn't surprise me - presumption of guilt seems to be the foundation for most of the recent laws.

Re:Why bother? (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624927)

presumption of guilt seems to be the foundation for anything to do with Jack Straw (minister for double-plus unjustice)

There, thats fixed it for you.

Re:Why bother? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29625003)

And when they cut everybody off?

No more online shopping, no sales tax to the government via online sales, telco operators demand more government subsidies to prevent their collapse. Unemployment due to no customers for internet services.

How can we e-vote without the internet then?

Sorry EU has ruled the internet is a basic human right now. It wont happen.

Re:Why bother? (2, Interesting)

sqrt(2) (786011) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624381)

The legal department of the RIAA has to look like they are doing something. They have to try and make some accomplishments, even symbolic ones.

Use SKIs (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624257)

If some fucker comes up to me in snow shoes and tries to spam me I just ski the fuck out of there. Retrofit SKI to a nice geeky acronym for some kind of technology to combat this shit and you're good to go.

Re:Use SKIs (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624297)

Somehow replied to the wrong story? I didn't even think this one was up when I posted? Gremlins or my stupidity. Either way ignore.

Re:Use SKIs (2, Funny)

The MAZZTer (911996) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624383)

I don't know it kinda fits if you consider TPB the guy on SKIs and whoever is trying to shut them down the guys on snow shoes.

TPB now hosted on the moon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624277)

Now how to sue out off the earth!

Re:TPB now hosted on the moon (1)

eggman9713 (714915) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624313)

I would think the moon is considered part of the United States, seeing as our flag is there and no one else's (to my knowledge, feel free to tell me I am a misinformed clod). Hence why they aren't hosted there.

Re:TPB now hosted on the moon (2, Informative)

sqrt(2) (786011) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624369)

The US has never made any claims of ownership of any part of the moon. There are small Soviet markers made of metal up there too that were placed by their various unmanned probes, so the US is still the only country with a real flag on the moon. The US and Russia also have a treaty that says both will treat the moon the same way we handle international waters, and forbids military use.

Re:TPB now hosted on the moon (1)

M8e (1008767) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624919)

Haven't all the us-flags been blasted away at the return trips?

Re:TPB now hosted on the moon (1)

enrevanche (953125) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624413)

The U.S. has signed the "Outer Space Treaty" which treats the moon like international waters, so nobody has claim to the moon exclusively. Russia (USSR) placed pennants there in 1959.

Oh for godsakes... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29624335)

Would the obvious just hurry up and happen? Clearly we need Jack Thompson to go after the Pirate Bay. Which'll preferably be running on servers made of code stolen from SCO, and rumored to play the secret beta of Duke Nukem Forever if compiled backwards.

Anything else? Will that put our Stories That Just Won't Die together?

MPAA continues shoveling water... (1)

aonyx (629229) | more than 4 years ago | (#29624733)

Oh, no! You mean I have to go all the way to the Ukraine to visit TPB? Boy, the MPAA really succeeded this time!
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