Why Microsoft's EU Ballot Screen Doesn't Measure Up 283
An anonymous reader writes "A lengthy interview on Groklaw discusses the EU's case against Microsoft. The case is supported by Opera, Google, Mozilla, ECIS, and the Free Software Foundation Europe. The EU has demanded that users be offered a 'ballot screen' to make it easier for users to select other browsers. Microsoft has responded by implementing the ballot screen as a web page inside IE. While this may nominally satisfy EU's demand, it is unlikely to satisfy users who prefer other browsers. In order to select another browser, users must be running IE. Also, users will be shown security warnings when choosing from the ballot. Microsoft's ability to charge patent fees in Europe is also discussed: why are they allowed to charge patent fees where software patents are not recognized?"
We'll install Opera right after we install IE (Score:2)
Thanks Microsoft. How considerate of you to dirty-up my Windoze with Innerweb Exploder, just so I can download an alternative like Opera or Firefox or Safari.
I'm sure Microsoft could include a small FTP program in the "choose your browser" screen to go retrieve the browsers directly, but of course they don't want to do that. They want IE on there in hopes you'll use it someday.
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I'm sure Microsoft could include a small FTP program in the "choose your browser" screen to go retrieve the browsers directly
And just think of what an uproar other FTP program makers will do then.
You really want to have another ballot screen to select your favourite FTP program before the browser ballot screen comes up?
Re:We'll install Opera right after we install IE (Score:4, Insightful)
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P.S.
IE is an open door that lets viruses through. I was having a problem with viruses, and when I uninstalled IE, they disappeared. What a piece of crap program.
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Or perhaps they tailor their product to demand.
There is a demand for IE.
I use other browsers about 99% of the time, but I also need to have IE installed.
A home user might be able to get by with it, but I use a grip of different management tools, some of which require IE.
Some router config utils don't render properly in FF (and some don't render properly in certain versions of IE.)
I'd be pretty annoyed if I was doing a new office setup and couldn't install network devices because I needed to download a brows
The Sophomore Class (Score:2)
How considerate of you to dirty-up my Windoze with Innerweb Exploder
It's talk like this that has me siding with the fullback who stuffs the dork in his locker.
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Really? So if I say "How considerate of you to dirty-up my Window 7 with Internet Explorer" does it alter the meaning? No. Not really. IE is still a door through which viruses leaked onto my XP system, and why I uninstalled it, and why I don't want it installed on my Win7 upgrade *at all*.
Lynx (Score:2, Interesting)
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This... ...is why.
http://images.google.com/images?q=lynx+browser [google.com]
If you feel that doesn't answer your question, then you'll have to ask yourself whether you are fit to ask it in the first place.
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I like to use Lynx. It let's me surf the net, while appearing to be doing work, thereby tricking the boss. It's also ridiculously fast and uses minimal bandwidth.
The only drawback is the 80-column limit. I wish there was a variant of Lynx that had no limit on how many columns appeared on the screen.
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elinks doesn't restrict you to a 80 column terminal. To tell you the truth though, I didn't think any of them did...
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Because Microsoft doesn't want their user experience to be shit? Duh.
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Why can't we have Lynx as an option?
Because no sane person who wants a text-based browser would pick Lynx over Links.
unbelievable (Score:2)
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Why IE? Why not create a windows app that provides ballot screen which ftp the browser behind the scenes after user selection. If MS wants to do this there are ways to do it without using IE
Because it would be a completely pointless thing to do. IE is used for more then web browsing. MS also uses components from IE for the help system and other things where they want to display formatted text. No one has a rational complaint about that. So it is perfectly sensible to use it for this.
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The functionality is in trident, If i MS used IE to render web pages in WMP/outlook/help, they would be thoroughly retarded, fortunately they are not they use the engine to do the rendering in a GUI suited to the needs of the user. IE has a lot of functionality, but you would be an idiot for suggesting all windows interfaces are done using it.
Don't think i fell for you troll I just worry others may.
So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not like IE is being removed from Windows anyway. There's other things that use it no matter what your default browser is.
This is just whining for the sake of whining.
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This is just whining for the sake of whining.
This is slashdot
I'm more concerned about... (Score:2)
Here's hoping there's a quick and easy way to disable this with group policy or registry tweaks. What makes sense for Joe Sixpack or Granny Crabapple is not
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I manage a lot of Windows computers at work and the last thing I want is an automatic update suddenly presenting my users with the invitation to choose a new browser
This only happens on new installs I do think your point about corporate enviroments is valid, however i think that is something MS worry about and unless you leave users with default windows installs i don't think having 1 extra command/config option/program to set it will be an excessive workload.
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Well, according to what I read here [sitepoint.com]:
Whine Whine Whine (Score:2)
With a browser installed by default the user can go online and compare the home pages of other browsers.
He can - if he chooses - seek out independent reviews.
The more technically minded might be attracted to resources like Secunia: Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.x [secunia.com]
He is not limited to a screen shot and a paragraph or two of description -
which will inevitably be fretted and fussed over word-by-word by the anal-retentive geek and EU bureaucrat.
What is really happening (Score:2, Insightful)
The real problem is not that the IE8 is installed by default. The problem is that Microsoft does not want the Internet at all.
Why should they? Web-applications threaten their core business: OS and MS Office. And money talk.
So they use the Internet Explorer as, speaking figuratively, the Internet's tombstone.
It is slow, it is incompatible, its interface is extremely confusing. I spend a lot of time to find a command in its convoluted menus; what about less technical users then?
Microsoft is trying to win time
that's not even wrong... (Score:2)
Either you're twelve, or having been living in a cave.
Win95's success was built almost entirely on the fact that you suddenly had native connectivity to the internet, instead of having to cobble together a daisy chain of utilities oneself.
If people stopped using the internet tomorrow, PC sales would dry up, taking windows licensing sales along with it.
They'd still survive, but would take a HUGE hit financially.
I may have seen a post as completely ignorant as your at some time in the past, but I honestly can
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Yes, Microsoft does need a watered-down Internet, like opening an odd page with a long unreadable URL from time to time.
But not more. It does not need fast reliable web-OS and web-applications.
It is obvious and understandable, who would need to install Office then?
That is why IE8 has got such a latency while opening pages with JavaScript, that is why it is insecure to a degree that people are afraid to use the Internet.
Add to this millions and millions of pirated Windows installations now without even criti
Who will this effect (Score:2)
Most regular people will buy from Dell or some such and never ever see this ballot screen anyways. So how does this help?? I think if they wanted to change what software came with computers they should go to the prefab guys and ban windows taxing. Maybe force them to throw in a ubuntu, FF and openoffice radio button. Seems like it would have way more of an effect than this ever would.
That said, windows has balls almost spi
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Re:I don't care about the screen... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why MS can't conceive that people don't want a lot of that crap is beyond me.
I dont think "normal people" care that much though. They dont see the difference between IE being still installed but hidden and IE being completely removed from the system. They get to choose another browser tho.
Microsoft has responded by implementing the ballot screen as a web page inside IE.
I wonder how they've could had done it differently. If you provided the install exes along with OS setup, they would be outdated (bad bad thing in browsers). They could had made another protocol that tells the setup what browsers to show for the user and setup then downloads it, but whats the point. When it's an actual webpage, there's much more control in updating it, and it would had been pretty useless for MS to develop completely new rendering engine and browser just for that (and MS browser would still had been there). The security warnings are stupid however.
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I always use IE to download Opera. So it doesn't really matter if it is outdated. To me the ballot screen is a silly requirement - most people don't know enough to vote, and there is the risk of malware ridden browsers getting onto it. People who do know enough to vote can already download an alternative browser and use that instead.
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An full-on webpage may be more flexible, but that is only by virtue of the browser supporting the features laid out in the standards referenced by that webpage.
There's absolutely nothing stopping Microsoft from simply hosting the options as an XML file, downloading that using any ol' connection technology, parsing it, and popping up any images, descriptions, URLs, as would a browser. It doesn't need to support CSS, it doesn't need to support Javascript, etc. The results could then easily be displayed in a
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The same way the app first downloaded the XML file to show the browser choices in the first place?
The user doesn't have to 'download' anything.. they just click on the shiny 'download and install [browser name] now' link or button and off the program goes to do what needs to be done; without any IE requirement.
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"They could had made another protocol"
As has been pointed out numerous times, protocols already exist. FTP, anyone? No rendering engine, no browser necessary. Put the ballot into the installation routine, then FTP whichever client the user chooses. I was expecting the EU to hold out for something similar to that - I never expected them to allow IE to be the client used to choose and download the browser of choice.
But, this is still better than MS just installing the browser of THEIR choice, and never te
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I still run into people, latest time was at work, that still think Internet explorer /is/ the Internet.
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Re:I don't care about the screen... (Score:5, Interesting)
When I'm working on someone's computer and they are having problems with IE that I know Firefox would solve, I usually first just ask them if they've heard of Firefox. About half the time they have, usually having used it on a friend's computer. Then I ask them what sites they usually visit. My mom's an avid Craigslist fan so I installed Firefox and added Greasemonkey with the Craigslist image script. The script automatically pulls the images from the ads and inserts them on the main page under each heading. Needless to say I made an instant believer out of my mother and she uses Firefox to this day.
No amount of whining or explaining is going to make most people switch browsers. Just show the strengths (adblock being a good standby) of the alternatives and they sell themselves.
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I find that people are starting to care more. These days it seems that I'm often (pleasantly) surprised by non-technical people I run into when they mention things in conversation that I really wouldn't expect them to know, such as their current favourite browser, or that they just tried out some technology that I'd expect only geeks to be using. Even my mother gave me a start when she asked what I thought about MS SQL Server. She's by no means technical but cares enough about her organisations choice of da
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Honestly, It sounds to me like everyone is over-engineering this to to death.
I'm yet to be convinced that a modern desktop-oriented operating system should be crippled by being forbidden from preinstalling a browser. At the very least, it makes zero sense to not provide an html renderer with the OS. It has become one of the most basic functionalities you can ask for.
This said, and accepting you have a browser pre-installed, it takes about half an hour to come up with a mock-up of a page with a decent presentation and a listing of all the browsers they could ask for. The bit of code
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Why MS can't conceive that people don't want a lot of that crap is beyond me.
They can, they just don't think that tiny minority of people are worth spending the support and development time it would cost on.
Because, well, you're not.
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That's because the average person wasn't aware there were alternatives because Microsoft blocked anything but IE for so many years. The purpose of this ruling is to correct that. The number of people who will take advantage of this will be small at first but will very likely increase as they learn about their options.
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I just want to be able to DELETE IE completely.
So far the best you can do is break it so it doesnt ever work.
Do you mean delete the application, or delete the rendering engine library? If you delete the library, thousands of other applications that use that library for various things will break; is that what you want?
If you mean delete the application, Windows 7 already lets you do that, exactly the same way you'd uninstall, say, Solitaire.
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You have to be a little more specific.
Do you want to delete the HTML rendering library? (MSHTML I believe.) Or do you want to remove the Internet Explorer binary?
The binary is just the UI to the rendering library, and it can be removed like any other Windows component in Windows 7. So if that's what you want (and realistically, it should be), then you're golden in the next version of Windows and you can stop whinging on to Slashdot about it. (Thank God, because I'm sick of the whinging.)
If, however, you wan
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Or perhaps you know, Microsoft could better design their OS to not break when one component is removed.
They seem to have taken IE, tied it into everything and they decided that they better make it into a library for convenience sake, rather than build a library and use it. I'm designing a library at the moment that requires another library to function. I've designed it in such a way that if there's a better library option in the future I can remove a single file (that contains the code for interacting with
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Or perhaps you know, Microsoft could better design their OS to not break when one component is removed.
EVERY OS relies on an HTML rendering component. This isn't unique to Windows, it's just that Windows is the only OS that people get pissy about.
They seem to have taken IE, tied it into everything and they decided that they better make it into a library for convenience sake, rather than build a library and use it.
The built the library (that's what MSHTML is) and IE at the same time. The library for all appl
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Even better: Windows 7 doesn't come with a mail client.
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Informative)
Windows 7 no longer includes Windows Mail (the program that replaced Outlook Express in Vista).
If you want a mail client, you have to download Windows Live Mail or your choice of client.
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and to get the damn Live-Mail, you almost have to use IE and jump through a lot of hoops just to get it. Went through that the other day and it was a real PITA as the Live Downloaded wanted to install a whole rash of other crap, just like all the other freebies out there. Of course instead of adding the Ask Toolbar, it wanted to add in Messenger, the damn Blogger accelerator for IE and sign you up for both a Live Id and a damn hotmail account.
Damn MS for making it even harder on people to simply get a copy
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Insightful)
You, uh, are aware that there are better alternatives to the shitheap that is outlook express, right? Thunderbird, just to pick the popular one, doesn't have any hoops at all. Why would you jump through the MS hoops for a piece of low-grade quasi-free software?
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Insightful)
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http://www.pmail.com/index2.htm [pmail.com]
Clean, simple, free - I found it years ago, and the wife learned to use it in just a couple days. And, she's no computer whiz. It runs beautifully on WinXP, and my search for Win7 on the forum suggests that it runs just fine on Win7.
I searched this out specifically because OE was being targeted by worms, and it was installed on all of my machines until I decided to move to Google mail.
They are seeing financial hard times (who isn't?) so a little donation would be even more a
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Actually, Outlook 2007 isn't /that/ bad. I'm not saying I like it, but it's not as bad as some people make out.
I use The Bat. I tried Thunderbird but was amazed to find that there is no way to set up default templates for new mails and replies, and no way to set up variables in templates.
From time to time I consider just using gMail instead of a client, but it doesn't work very well with widescreen monitors. The mail view and particularly the reply box are far too wide. It also doesn't support fixed fonts v
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Then use something else!! Jesus Christ.
Look, if you don't like the product, don't use the product! Shocking, I know, but there it is.
No matter if you use it or not, please don't come here and whine here about it. If you want Microsoft to make the install process easier, send feedback to Microsoft. Again: shocking, I know.
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"Do you want to make Bing your main search engine and make it so this is impossible for other search engines to change?"
Wtf?? Its like hey, want us to rootkit you?
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:4, Insightful)
That's in response to those asshat toolbars like "WebSearch" which fool less than computer literate people into installing them. They switch all your search preferences to their own spyware option automagically.
The Bing option you mention would require you to manually change it, so it can't get hijacked.
In other words, it's not a bad thing.
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First off, you don't need IE to get Windows Live (from whence you get Live Mail). Windows comes with a handy dandy little app that will go get it for you instead. It uses the same api's IE uses, but who the hell cares? Those are windows networking api's for the most part.
If for some reason you can't get it through the app (AV security restrictions, for one) then you can go to the windows live website - which is just a website that can be accessed from any browser.
Wow, look at all that lock-in required to
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Do people just make things up so they're complaints sound solid? I must be new here.
You must be, that's a hallmark of Slashdot argument. I'll show you how to make yourself sound like an expert on a subject in less than 5 minutes:
First, read the post you disagree with and look for any "fact" (facts are flexible here) that looks less than solid.
Fire up Google and search for a negation of that fact (such and such is not yadda yadda). Even if this yields nothing, you should now know enough about the jargon to start making shit up.
All you really need to do is make sure it is relatively logica
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Funny)
Grub?
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I'd like a ballot screen for choosing the operating system.
I saw one like that from HP's business line. Two problems:
1) Both were from MS (XP or Vista)
2) The notebook was summarily handed to an idiot with a major case of "Oooh, clicky!" syndrome who not only loaded Vista against his company's wishes, but then tried to get XP back by deleting everything he could find. Including Windows and the recovery files.
Somehow, this all wound up being my fault.
The problem with an OS chooser is that it's only useful to people who know what an OS is. A lot don't, and the
Re:No more Outsuck Express (Score:5, Interesting)
That's an excellent example of the schism between what ordinary people think of as a computer and how Microsoft sees it.
Ever noticed how OEMs are not allowed to change things like the Windows start-up sound? As far as Microsoft are concerned, their product is XP and your computer has it. As far as the consumer is concerned it's a Sony/HP/Dell/etc computer and it does what computers do. I reckon at least 50% of people don't even know what Windows is, or that Internet Explorer is a web browser and there are alternatives. All they see is a computer and an icon called Internet Explorer which is "the internet".
The problem for OEMs is that it's hard for them to sell a computer with Linux because people can't install The Sims 3 on it. ASUS did the world a massive favour with their Linux netbooks which demonstrated that as long as you don't have a slot to put Sims 3 discs in and your product otherwise looks similar to and does all the things that Windows does you need not pay the Microsoft tax. Google and Facebook are really helping too because now they are the "killer apps" most ordinary people want, all without an optical drive.
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Er, why is a web browser needed at all to display a selection screen? It's not like they couldn't make a little program to choose one.
This ridiculous shoving of a web browser into places it doesn't belong is starting to get annoying.
Re:Enough is enough (Score:4, Informative)
You really need to think your troll/ridiculously stupid posts through. It would be trivial to have an MSXML/text/MSSQL file contain a list of browsers,icons,download locations and then have an app show that list (in a nice GUI with icons and all), complete with misleading warnings.
or to put it another way "I'd create a GUI interface using visual basic to see if I can install the browser people want"
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What about Pepsi coupon attached on Coca Cola can?
You don't understand the problem. You are allowed to have a monopoly in the US. You are just not allowed to use that monopoly (in OSs) to give you an unfair advantage in a different market (Internet Browsers)
Re:Enough is enough (Score:4, Funny)
You're right. And when the U.S. DOJ fined the record companies for telling Walmart, Kmart, Target, and other stores, "You must sell these CDs are $12 or more, or else be cutoff from future supplies," the DOJ was wrong there too. Companies should be free to treat their customers and stores like ____, and do whatever is necessary to "win" and kill off the competition via monopolistic practices. Yes technically the record companies violated anti-cartel and price-fixing laws, but who what?
Heck the government shouldn't even be regulating monopolies like Baltimore Gas & Electric, or Bell Telephone. Let them charge the customers whatever they want. Yes they hold a monopoly but so what? It's their market and their right to do whatever they want.
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> and when they piss off enough people, competitors will arise, and will run the monopolist into the ground.
That's how it would be in an ideal market.
But the reality is that the monopolies have the money to buy out or drive out or hold down any competition, so that the customers don't really have a choice.
And thus we need governments to control the monopolies.
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The people of Maryland are getting price-gouged, and I don't see any VIABLE (keyword) competition rise-up and create electrical or natural gas alternatives to Baltimore G & E. Same with Microsoft.
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What about Pepsi coupon attached on Coca Cola can?
Usually I don't respond to trolls, but I'll make an exception. It's about the operating system Windows bundling the browser IE inside it. The proper paralell, which seems to be too hard for your thick head to understand, would be that a store which owns almost 90% of the market refuses to sell Coca Cola, but happily sells Pepsi. Or even worse as in this case, makes its own brand of cola and refuses to sell any other.
You're welcome.
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What part of Windows being a monopoly don't you get?
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No, they will not.
And for a simple reason: Google does neither have a monopoly in the OS nor in the browser market, so bundling their browser with their OS doesn't unfairly push any product and thus doesn't break any anti-competition laws.
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A ballot screen on Safari to promote IE? Ridiculous. The most recent version of IE for Macs is IE 5! Why do you want people to be using technology that predates Windows XP?
In case anyone is curious, IE 5.2 does still work OK on Snow Leopard.
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We would all be annoyed of course, but isn't that the ultimate goal of the "fairness" crowd?
Historically, most attempts by government (any government) to promote "fairness" almost always result in increased inequity.
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Do you have any examples at all to back this absurd statement up?
Rich.
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The only way to be fair would be to have an independant bit of code that would download your preference for you. Lynx is a browser and is simple to drive so the actual download would not be an issue, just the splash-screen GUI. Or FTP even, its already embedded in Windows ready to be used.
As it is, it will probably be like Microsoft's 'which search engine do you want' which pretty much says "you can use any, if you really want to go to the trouble of clicking through the next buttons, or you can just CLICK
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/rollseyes Because Microsoft don't have any programmers capable of writing this interface in any other form right?
Running the selection process inside IE is a blatant attempt to sway the user towards selecting IE, well, that along with installing IE by default (and requiring an internet connection to download the others), putting IE first on the list, and prompting the user with security warnings if they make any other suggestion.
Microsoft abused the market to get IE to the position its in, and they're go
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interesting my ass, why do MS have to use fully blown IE (with interface and all) to render a single webpage at a fixed location? This is the kind of thing a simple tool (vb could do it!)+an XML file is suited to. If they didn't want to go to all that effort, then why not use a plane window (no adressbar/no controls) and trident to render the webpage. This isn't about following the intent of the law (offering competing browsers) its just following the letter of the law, that's cool but next time anybody wan
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Or they could, you know, put it in a dialog box on system install. Whatever.
The geek gone Socialist (Score:4, Interesting)
a very limited number of known products, specific browsers which have been concluded by the European Commission should be included on the ballot screen.
Does anyone else find it really, really, strange that the allegedly libertarian geek would accept without protest - even demand - that the state bureaucracy give its stamp of approval before a browser can appear on the ballot?
Can't he see what a precedent this sets?
Surfing the political wave is treacherous - with dramatic shifts from left to right. FOSS and anti-trust can wipe-out.
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I wonder how a browser gets "concluded"? Perhaps a small filing fee (ahem, bribe) is in order?
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Because that requires an internet connection. I know internet access is common, but can we really assume these days that *everybody* has it, and that it is correctly configured and connected right out of the box? Most home routers are administered via a web page, requiring a browser. Imagine if the ftp session fails to connect. Now what?
Customer talking to ISP tech support: I get an error when I select Opera as my browser
ISP tech: Hmmm. What is the error?
Customer: Something about "con
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So now the router vendors will add FireFox or Chrome or whatever on their install CD, and hey presto.. problem solved.. on top of that, the user now gets introduced to a different and typically more secure browser. win/win on all sides (except Microsoft - unless they'd allow router vendors to distribute IE).
Besides, I'd imagine MS -will- still place a base IE install on their distribution CDs/DVDs, and a user can be directed to launch the installer from that well before they touch a router that has yet to
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Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Standardizing the internet has absolutely *nothing* to do with this. The UI menu items, toolbar icons, and options available by default all matter tremendously, especially to novices. For example, f the browser does not have an icon bar displayed, many (most?) will be incapable of figuring out how to turn it on. They will rely on friends. If everybody has a different UI this becomes exponentially more diffi
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>>>Standardizing the internet has absolutely *nothing* to do with this
Except it does. The guy I was replying to said, "Of course when they try to exchange tips with their other novice friends they won't be able to be cause they will all be running different browsers." If the web were standardized this would be a non-issue since 99% of the interaction is with the web itself, and should be identical in appearance/function across the board.
Also that guy's whole argument is ridiculous because it sugg
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The point of the legislation is to but all browser on an evil footing, by doing this all in IE, MS are not doing that so IMO the complaint is valid. It's not being jaded it's simply wanting MS to actually comply with the spirit of the law not just the letter. The way MS have implemented this is clearly a "fuck off" to the EU regulation, they haven't just used the IE-engine to get the results displayed they have deliberately put it in IE so that the user will just re-enter the address in the address bar, i w
If it's a fuck off to the eu (Score:4, Insightful)
then it's oh-so-richly deserved.
I've seen more clueless crap emanate from the eu than any hick state in the US.
I have no idea what you are suggesting (Score:2)
But it sounds stupid.
Are you advising that the eu attempt to force MS to publish details of it's file formats?
That will never happen.
The eu will become an IT ghetto before anyone is forced legislatively to open up closed source.
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Yes, but (Score:2)
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How am I supposed to download your favorite browser if I can't even connect to a website?
- cover CD from a computer magazine
- wget
- FTP
- 'install web browser' shortcut
What about Windows Media Player? Should Microsoft kill that as well?
Yes
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I use dialup/stolen wireless, you insensitive clod!
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Yes. The only browser on this box of mine is IE8 - I tried to post a reply to your post saying "IE8 does work", but was unable to do so. Sucks man.
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This is posted from a Mac using Firefox.
Well, this Mac has Safari on it. IT has run exactly once. To download firefox.
Sorta like the windows 7 situation.
However Apple is not a MONOPOLY supplier wheras, Microsoft is. Remember how they said IE Couldn't be removed? Yeah Right.
Granted that every Mac comes with software that contains Safari. Making Firefox my default browser works fine. No sudden appearence of Safari just because some app programmer was too lazy and invoked IE directly. No 'Don't you want to use