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Some Users Say Win7 Wants To Remove iTunes, Google Toolbar

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the you-choose-the-teapot-you-choose-the-tempest dept.

Upgrades 570

Foofoobar writes "Due to a strike with the UK's postal system, people in Great Britain are getting copies of Windows 7 early and have already posted their experiences about the install process. Some have an easy time but others post installs taking 3 hours including Windows asking them to remove iTunes and Google toolbar prior to installation." The article indicates that many of these early users, though, are having better luck.

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570 comments

Windows Upgrades (3, Insightful)

Reason58 (775044) | more than 4 years ago | (#29828949)

If you upgrade Windows on top of another installation you are in for a bad time.

Re:Windows Upgrades (1)

Tdawgless (1000974) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829233)

I went from Vista to Win7 RC1 and didn't have any problems. Every time I see a comment like this, I think to myself "Why don't I ever have these problems?" Well?

Re:Windows Upgrades (5, Insightful)

Lord Byron II (671689) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829307)

I don't know ... why don't you have these problems? What is your secret?

In my experience, if you have a real, live system and you upgrade Windows, you can expect everything non-MS to break. Critical registry entries get deleted, DLLs go missing, directories get moved and everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.

Re:Windows Upgrades (4, Funny)

Brad1138 (590148) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829557)

Critical registry entries get deleted, DLLs go missing, directories get moved and everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.

This is Windows, what's your point?

Re:Windows Upgrades (4, Insightful)

dollar99 (922389) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829365)

I agree with the original poster that people who don't do clean installs are in for a bad time. If you've successfully upgraded Windows on top of an older version you should consider yourself extremely lucky. I prefer to do clean installs and save my good luck for winning the lottery and such.

Re:Windows Upgrades (2, Interesting)

dazjorz (1312303) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829371)

That's what everybody always says or thinks. I never had any problems with Ubuntu either, yet there they are. I'm a developer for an instant messaging client, and hell, I've really never had any of the bugs all those users are screaming about! I don't know if you intended to say "Damn all you Windows haters", or that I just made that up while reading your reply, but it's really a problem every software project always has. I'd know what Apple would say if I said libxml was totally broken for me after upgrading my Macbook to Snow Leopard.... (Bonus mod points for everybody who replies "I didn't have that problem, you Apple hater!")

Re:Windows Upgrades (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829523)

You don't have those problems because you don't DO anything with your pc and have few installed complex apps to break. You got lucky. This time.

Or

You do have those problems. But have no clue yet because the problem hasnt shown up in a way you would notice. Or associate with your upgrade.

At the very least you now have a few thousand useless files just wasting drive space which will eat into your backup space needed.

You do preform backups yes? No? See previous comment about not DOING anything with your pc.

Older versions? (3, Interesting)

Lonewolf666 (259450) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829539)

My experience with Windows 9x matches GP's claim. If you had a broken installation and tried to fix it by re-installing without deleting the old installation, it would copy the broken settings and usually work even less than before.

Maybe GP still remembers that time and based his statement on that ;-)

I'm not so sure about newer versions, as I made a habit of doing always clean installs back then. Never tried to "repair-install" W2k or later.

Re:Windows Upgrades (0, Troll)

El_Muerte_TDS (592157) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829405)

But why does this have to be the case with MS Windows?
I never had this problem on my GNU/Linux system. Nor have I ever heard anyone about this issue on Mac OSX.

Re:Windows Upgrades (5, Funny)

psp (7269) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829529)

But why does this have to be the case with MS Windows?
I never had this problem on my GNU/Linux system. Nor have I ever heard anyone about this issue on Mac OSX.

No, OSX only downgrades Flash to a vulnerable version. Nothing to worry about.

Re:Windows Upgrades (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829585)

You must be kidding. I find Linux is the WORST OS for "unclean" installs. Personally I wouldn't ever recommend installing over an old OS for any operating system. There are simply far too many variables. It's much better to start from a clean slate.

Re:Windows Upgrades (3, Insightful)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829603)

I can't comment on OSX because I've never found a reason for using it, but I think you will find that Linux upgrades easier because user configuration is held in flat text files which are far easier to parse by an installation script than the Windows Registry is. So provided that Linux upgrades any associated libraries when it upgrades an application, the worst that can happen is that maybe an app won't run properly because of an invalid parameter in an old configuration file.

Incidentally, I fail to see what all the hoo-hah is about anyway, quite frankly. Unless you're one of these "I need to get Windows 7 installed first because my todger is bigger than your todger" types, then you just do the upgrade when you have time to back the disk properly, format it, install the new OS from scratch and then copy your old files back across.

It's not as though it's something that needs to done weekly and if you've not got the common sense to set aside the time to do it properly anyway, then you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Re:Windows Upgrades (2, Insightful)

geekmux (1040042) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829549)

If you upgrade Windows on top of another installation you are in for a bad time.

Yup. Wipe and Load. Pretty much the mantra for the last dozen releases or so, yet people still scratch their head after watching the 17th BSOD fly across their screen...

Microsoft OS releases should just come bundled with a brand-new hard drive. Would probably save themselves a lot of headache that way.

Re:Windows Upgrades (0, Troll)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829627)

If you upgrade Windows on top of another installation you are in for a bad time.

IME, this is at best only marginally less true if you install Windows fresh, or get it pre-installed.

Sounds good to me (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29828953)

iTunes and Google Toolbar are annoyances anyway. If they could permanently get rid of Quicktime, I'd be a happy camper.

Re:Sounds good to me (5, Interesting)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829035)

Seriously. I actually like iTunes, but damn is it a resource hog. Sometimes it will chew up 90%+ of CPU for no apparent reason. It will often be unresponsive to clicks for a couple seconds. I am not sure what is so complicated about a music player that causes this.

And then every time it asks me for an upgrade, it insists on installing Quicktime and other things that I don't want on my PC.

I don't use Macs, but wonder if all of Steve's apps behave this way...

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

Anubis IV (1279820) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829145)

As with most of these types of things, they perform far better on the original platform. Microsoft does the same thing with the Office suite, for instance. I tend to agree that Safari and Quicktime on Windows bug me, but on the Mac, they're great. iTunes on Windows is far inferior to the Mac version as well, not in terms of features, but certainly in terms of performance.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Informative)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829163)

QuickTime is what iTunes uses for it's MP3/AAC decoding engine, which is why it's installing QuickTime. It's not just installing it to force it on you, it's actually a dependency. This is why iTunes on Mac OS X is still a QuickTime 7 app. It can't move to QuickTime X because QuickTime X is not cross platform.

That's not an excuse (5, Insightful)

Rix (54095) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829387)

First off, there's no legitimate reason iTunes has to use QuickTime for MP3/AAC decoding. There are plenty of other options. If Apple insists on eating their own dogfood, there's no excuse for installing more than is necessary. Installing iTunes doesn't mean I want their stupid, crippled movie player or plugins.

Re:That's not an excuse (1)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829541)

First off, there's no legitimate reason iTunes has to use QuickTime for MP3/AAC decoding. There are plenty of other options. If Apple insists on eating their own dogfood, there's no excuse for installing more than is necessary. Installing iTunes doesn't mean I want their stupid, crippled movie player or plugins.

Right on! I feel exactly the same way. Unfortunately, Microsoft does the same thing. If you remove WMP, most Microsoft games released in the past few years will fail to play video/cinematics, and sometimes audio. :P

Re:That's not an excuse (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829599)

It uses it for movie playback as well, and given that all iTunes Store movies are in Quicktime format, they do kind of have to use it for playback.

Re:That's not an excuse (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829631)

You mean, aside from not having to reinvent the wheel when they already have a product that they make, which is available for free, that does the job?

Then again, one performance tweak you can make on Vista/7 is to tell Windows *NOT* to index the itunes library file. I received a significant boost to the responsiveness when Windows wasn't trying to index a 50MB file every time it changed.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

Bacon Bits (926911) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829527)

So why can't Apple do what the rest of the world does when it needs to use code from another application... use libraries. You don't need Quicktime's plugins or media player. Just the libraries should be sufficient.

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Insightful)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829567)

But the plugin and player are what... 2-3 megabytes of 20 megs? Most of the download is the QuickTime library and the codecs...

Re:Sounds good to me (4, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829235)

And then every time it asks me for an upgrade, it insists on installing Quicktime and other things that I don't want on my PC.

If you're talking about QuickTime Player and Safari, consider this: The iTunes application relies on the QuickTime framework to play media and the WebKit framework to display iTunes Store and iTunes LP. Trying to run iTunes without QuickTime and WebKit is like trying to run Windows Media Player without Windows Media or trying to run VLC without libavcodec.

So install the libraries (4, Insightful)

Rix (54095) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829399)

And leave the awful player and browser plugins out.

Re:Sounds good to me (1, Troll)

beelsebob (529313) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829595)

You do realise that iTunes *uses* quicktime to play music. Quicktime is a library, not a player.

Re:Sounds good to me (2, Insightful)

frozentier (1542099) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829133)

Exactly! I'd call removing iTunes and Google Toolbar a feature, not a bug.

Re:Sounds good to me (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829421)

That was my first thought!
Although it's not a good summary, is the first time I found a reason to upgrade to Win7. If Microsoft keeps resource hogs out of my system, that could be a great feature. Hopefully, they don't block Firefox, although my impression is that they are just blocking these because of the annoying services they run to update themselves.

Re:Sounds good to me (2, Informative)

Blue Stone (582566) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829295)

>If they could permanently get rid of Quicktime, I'd be a happy camper. Windows 7 has native support for Quicktime files through Windows Media Player - and Explorer - with thumbnails and everything! Sounds like your dream's come true.

Re:Sounds good to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829331)

Yes, doesn't this agree with the premise of Microsoft that you need to make sure you don't have viruses before any upgrade? ;)

Re:Sounds good to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829555)

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/QuickTime_Alternative.htm

Remove itunes? (2, Insightful)

sserendipity (696118) | more than 4 years ago | (#29828955)

Finally, a good idea from microsoft.

Oh, wait, they expect us to muddle along with the windows media player instead. Pot, kettle, frying pan, fire.

Re:Remove itunes? (5, Funny)

stranger_to_himself (1132241) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829211)

Finally, a good idea from microsoft.

Surely the real story here is that the postal strike is somehow causing mail to be delivered faster.

I'm confused (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#29828961)

Shouldn't an operating system[1] remove all applications before installation?

[1] unless you're setting up dual boot, in which case the apps would be on one of the unaffected partitions.

Re:I'm confused (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829039)

From the article (emphasis mine):

The upgrade process gave me a list of about 5 programs to un-install...

A full install will just clear the file system's file pointer table (quick, recoverable format), or truly format the drive before proceeding.

Re:I'm confused (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829127)

Shouldn't an operating system[1] remove all applications before installation?

An operating system shouldn't need to touch anything but OS components to do an upgrade install.

Re:I'm confused (5, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829197)

And program installers shouldn't need to touch OS components to do program installs.

Unfortunately, neither of these hold in the world as it actually exists.

Drivers are OS components (2, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829281)

An operating system shouldn't need to touch anything but OS components to do an upgrade install.

Device drivers, such as the iPod driver that comes with iTunes, are obviously operating system components. (If you disagree, please explain.) Google Toolbar is a web browser component, and Microsoft calls Internet Explorer part of the operating system.

Re:I'm confused (3, Insightful)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829255)

Supposedly windows 'upgrades' are basically an install of the new OS then it tries to copy over/grab all the stuff from the 'old' windows. It's an ugly process, and probably errors are caused by programs it doesn't know how to copy over. Stuff that embeds itself in the OS, itunes messes with USB, Google with search and god knows what, Anti virus with everything could work fundamentally differently on a new OS than an old and figuring out how, if at all, to copy that over is probably a difficult business. This might even be problems with specific versions of said programs rather than the application as a whole.

Uninstalling applications in an automated way is a bad idea. They may or may not remove *data* associated with the application that the user wants to keep, and may not know how to easily copy over. Believe it or not most people care more about their data, and access to it, more than the OS they use to launch the applications. It's probably better that people who know something about what a 'directory' is, and how to browse them, try to figure out how to copy data over than a lot of users for whom such a terrifying concept is completely foreign.

You can add them back... (5, Interesting)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#29828965)

First, this obviously applies only to upgrades.

Second, iTunes does horrible things to your USB stack, and it needs to go.

After Win7 is installed you can add it back, and not lose any of your music.

Don't make a big deal out of Microsoft trying to remove the effects of misbehaved software corrupting the install.

There is no issue here.

Re:You can add them back... (-1, Troll)

iamacat (583406) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829081)

This is why it sucks being a monopoly. Microsoft should have accepted a split into OS and applications companies a few years back. As things are, removing iTunes and installing Windows Media player during an OS upgrade is helping Microsoft leverage monopoly in one area to extend to another. They should be required to avoid installing any media player by default or design some other remedy that would make selecting WinAmp as easy as selecting WMP.

Re:You can add them back... (1, Troll)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829153)

Whoa Whoa Whoa,,,

This is not forcing you to stop using iTunes as either your media player or for managing your iPod/iPhone.

Its just that APPLE does not know how to right compliant software and has been foisting USB drivers into windows that were buggy the day they *cough* borrowed them and haven't improved with age.

These lame Apple USB drivers were killing machines with certain types of HP printers attached and generally causing havoc. Apple was forced to release a patch.

To get things properly in line with Device Stage you need an uninstall followed by a re-install.

Its that simple. There is no conspiracy here. Calm down.
Stop the FUD.

Re:You can add them back... (1)

hondo77 (324058) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829401)

Its just that APPLE does not know how to right compliant software...

Thanks for the example of how not to use compliant words.

Re:You can add them back... (2, Insightful)

Kate6 (895650) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829097)

You could make the case that the fact that misbehaving user-space software could theoretically interfere with the upgrade process points to a deep design flaw in Windows as a whole. I recently upgraded from Leopard to Snow Leopard, which turned all the core parts of my operating system from 32 bits to 64 bits... I did have a few bits of third party software stop working after that. None of them affected overall system stability, though... And definitely not the install.

Re:You can add them back... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829217)

Try installing 3rd party software on OS.X that does bastardised non standard installs that alter the core drivers of your system (like apple does) then see how stable your upgrade is on OS.X

Re:You can add them back... (3, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829247)

Yes you could make that claim.

But some parts of iTunes don't run in user-space.

Apple Mobile Device runs as a service as does Bonjour.

Its this device driver that needs to go (temporarily) and the system needs a reboot with it gone (in true Microsoft fashion).

After the upgrade, when you re-install iTunes, the Apple Mobile drivers will be subordinate to the new Windows 7 Device Stage, and all will be well.

Re:You can add them back... (1)

Kate6 (895650) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829375)

According to the wikipedia entry [wikipedia.org] for Windows services, a Windows service is essentially the same thing as a daemon is on *NIX machines. Daemons are not device drivers -- they're user space programs.

A device driver is a loadable module that gets inserted into the kernel and provides an interface to a specific piece of hardware... It's been a while since I've owned an iPod -- the most recent one I had was a 4th Generation 20 gigger, but I'm fairly sure at least back then iPods didn't require unique drivers. They went through the standard USB Mass Storage driver.

Re:You can add them back... (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829591)

A device driver is a loadable module that gets inserted into the kernel and provides an interface to a specific piece of hardware... It's been a while since I've owned an iPod -- the most recent one I had was a 4th Generation 20 gigger, but I'm fairly sure at least back then iPods didn't require unique drivers. They went through the standard USB Mass Storage driver.

Unfortunately, the iPod Touch and iPhone require a USB driver because Mass Storage means you can't do a lot of things while it's still attached to a PC (like say, use them). Thus they don't emulate mass storage at all.

Of course, Apple could've used CDC Ethernet, making iTunes syncing over WiFi a reality (since CDC Ethernet emulates a network connection). But I suspect the reason is, XP onwards only supports RNDIS (which you can simulate via CDC Ethernet) by default, while Linux/MacOS X support CDC Ethernet. The problem is, OS X misidentifies RNDIS devices as dialup CDC devices, and you get into the whole "Mac/Windows" format thing again.

Re:You can add them back... (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829335)

Yeah, it reminds me of upgrading a Linux system that uses third-party repositories. You always get a warning that some things might not work correctly.

Now, if it silently uninstalled iTunes, that would be something else.

Not sure the title is correct... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29828967)

Given the 2 examples, I'd say it's just asking to get rid of trouble-causing software.

iTunes for Windows is maximum bloatware with questionable value...

Toolbars (from anyone) should never be installed.... (this includes Office Toolbars from Microsoft as well)...

Re:Not sure the title is correct... (4, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829289)

> iTunes for Windows is maximum bloatware with questionable value...

Unless you own an iPhone, in which case its value is pretty well dictated to you by Steve Jobs.

You really can't own an iPhone without it.

But somehow, Apple gets a pass for that kind of behavior, and Microsoft suffers FUD posts like this on Slashdot for Apple's misadventures.

Re:Not sure the title is correct... (0, Flamebait)

static0verdrive (776495) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829637)

Microsoft suffers FUD posts

Awww. Talk about "taste of their own medicine"! Hey, is their Zune software also available for mac?

Wow (5, Funny)

Kratisto (1080113) | more than 4 years ago | (#29828973)

Windows 7 recognizes how bad iTunes is? Even XP can't do that! I'm switching right now... Where'd I put my MSDNAA login?

So (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29828977)

If they didn't do this we would be reading about how the upgrade breaks competitor's software. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Summary is Misleading (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29828995)

TFA says Windwos7 asks you to remove some drivers and apps and then successfully re-installs them when done. That's not quite what the summary implies.

Re:Summary is Misleading (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829049)

It puts back the drivers, but didn't put back iTunes (though a manual re-install of iTunes picked up the library automatically). According to TFA.

From TFA... (2, Informative)

golden age villain (1607173) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829007)

"At the end of it, Windows put back the drivers I removed, and I reinstalled iTunes which worked fine without any configuration, my library and apps were all there."

About iTunes -- from the article (5, Informative)

rwade (131726) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829013)

Here's the a quote from the article of a user who found that Windows 7 asked that the user uninstall iTunes:

...and I reinstalled iTunes which worked fine without any configuration, my library and apps were all there.

While I agree it is suspicious that iTunes and the Google Toolbar were the only applications that Windows 7 ask that particular user to uninstall, it should be made clear that Windows 7 did not impede the user from using that software or foist a MS application on him.

I will note that many users had significant difficulties with using non-Apple software after upgrading to Snow Leopard.

I myself have had significant difficulties using already installed software after upgrading various shared libraries via ports on FreeBSD.

I would suggest that these issues are along the lines of what Microsoft was doing when it asked the user to uninstall iTunes and the Google Toolbar.

Re:About iTunes -- from the article (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829449)

It is not just iTunes. When I went to install Windows 7, it told me to uninstall Gnu/Linux first. Which I did, but after installing Windows 7, it allowed me to reinstall Gnu/Linux.

However, Gnu/Linux seem to totally delete Windows 7 after the install reformated the drive. Must be a law to stop Gnu/Linux from doing that, isn't there?

I mean like anti-trust law suit or something?

Summary is misleading (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829015)

The summary is rather misleading about the required removal of iTunes and the Google Toolbar as the article does say that Windows reinstalled them as part of the upgrade process. Let's not try to find a bogeyman where one doesn't exist.

Oh, FFS! (5, Informative)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829017)

From TFA:

"The upgrade process gave me a list of about 5 programs to un-install," he says. "Which I did, it was some drivers, iTunes and the Google Toolbar. After that the whole thing was automatic, I just left it sitting there... At the end of it, Windows put back the drivers I removed, and I reinstalled iTunes which worked fine without any configuration, my library and apps were all there. I have to say that is about the most successful Windows upgrade I have ever personally experienced."

Yep - a disaster in the making.

OMFG (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829021)

Oh my God, Windows actually warns you that some apps you have installed could be incompatible with version 7 and suggests that they be removed. Is there no end to the evil that Redmond does?

That's all sarcasm for you more literal-minded folks...

Just One Observation... (4, Insightful)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829023)

I've no plans to upgrade to Windows 7 from XP whatsoever but if people are being asked to remove iTunes and Google Toolbar, this implies they are using an "install over the top" upgrade method, rather than "backup, format and install from new".

And if these people **REALLY** believe that upgrading any OS in this fashion, let alone MS Windows, will end up giving them a nice clean install afterwards, then they probably shouldn't be anywhere near a computer in the first place.

...you don't need to be near any computer. (2, Interesting)

feranick (858651) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829411)

In fact I am not anywhere near a computer. I am doing everything remotely: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

Re:...you don't need to be near any computer. (2, Insightful)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829459)

Actually, I prefer "emerge -vuDN world" as whilst I'm part XP user, I'm more Gentoo Linux user.

Re:Just One Observation... (0, Troll)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829507)

Well, an OS which can't handle upgrades without a clean install is pretty worthless. Have you tried something with a real packaging system?

I've heard that Red Hat and FreeBSD have sometimes troubles with upgrades as well, but as a long-time Debian user, I never noticed any large-scale troubles. Nothing is perfect, but issues are limited to single programs -- like, PostgreSQL failed in its upgrade from 8.1 to 8.3 on every single setup I managed so I had to do full dumps/restores. In general, system upgrades work fine -- there's a server which had potato->woody->sarge->lenny without a single breakage.

Re:Just One Observation... (1)

gumbi west (610122) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829537)

I have upgraded from Mac OS 9.0, to 9.1, to 9.2, to OS X 10.1, to 10.2, to 10.3, to 10.4. I then bought a new Intel mac computer and did a install on top of the PPC install by first using Apple's migration tool and then the install tool (their selected order). It was only at that time that I had to do a clean install, and the reason is that DVD player was never installed at any point along the way (DVDs weren't really something that computers were expected to play out of the box in 2000 when I bought the first mac). But other than that, everything worked great, I used the computer for several weeks before I tried to play a DVD and discovered the problem. Even then, no format step, it just did a clean install and then moved all my files back into place.

speaking of which - beta? (0, Troll)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829025)

Speaking of people installing it...when does the beta stop working?

Re:speaking of which - beta? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829105)

Speaking of people installing it...when does the beta stop working?

The beta stopped working a few months ago. July I think.

Re:speaking of which - beta? (1)

grocer (718489) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829283)

The Beta quit in June, I believe, however, the RC is good until March, I think...I should check since I have the RC on one of my partitions but I think that's becoming FreeBSD anyway...so what do I care...honestly, played with 7, decided it was a worthwhile upgrade over XP, and then went back to XP since all my stuff's there.

Clean is good! (1)

N!NJA (1437175) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829027)

hasnt MS advised on making a clean install? i guess this is a great way to show people that a clean install is named "clean" for a good reason!

so... (1)

Z1NG (953122) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829045)

Uninstall itunes and google toolbar....add self uninstall followed by installation of you favorite *nix distribution and who here would agree with this practice. In my experience both of those programs are really annoying. (I don't actually have anything against Window's 7, I've never used it)

Crappy Summary (5, Informative)

Anonymous Codger (96717) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829061)

What a crappy, dishonest summary! I despise MS as much as anyone, but this is too much. Yes, it asked them to remove iTunes, etc., but then it reinstalled them! And everything worked.

Re:Crappy Summary (2)

Stripe7 (571267) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829271)

I play a MMO "World of Kung Fu" and folks there are saying that the game is not compatible with Windows 7. As it is a game I play daily that means I won't be bothering with an upgrade until a version of the game comes out that does work with Windows 7. Probably not Microsoft's issue and more along the line of the game not following Microsoft programming guidelines but the fallout is anyone wanting to play the game cannot as yet upgrade to Windows 7. I wonder at the list of games that will work with Windows 7 especially MMO's given the stringent security precautions some MMO's install to prevent hacks or DRM that install with a lot of games. The games may well work but the DRM that comes with them may prevent the games from running.

Re:Crappy Summary (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829329)

The games may well work but the DRM that comes with them may prevent the games from running.

To be completely off-topic, I'd like to say this is an awesome synopsis of what DRM does.

Re:Crappy Summary (4, Insightful)

GF678 (1453005) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829457)

I despise MS as much as anyone, but this is too much.

For me, the more Slashdot bashes Microsoft unfairly, the less I despise Microsoft. If Microsoft is supposedly so rotten, why does Slashdot feel the need to lie? It makes Slashdot look like it's run by a bunch of idiots with an agenda, and makes me question how much of the bashing of MS is legitimate.

Misleading summary (2, Insightful)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829107)

A) Only upgrade installs
B) The 7 installer detects known incompatible software and asks you to uninstall it, making it very clear that it's going to do so.

This is a non-story.

Re:Misleading summary (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829193)

A non-story? On Slashdot, an exaggerated tempest in a teapot? You know that's unique, because otherwise there would be a tag.

Lie about windows to get posted on slashdot (5, Informative)

Useful Wheat (1488675) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829129)

Did the poster even read the article? The summary is longer than the sentence that mentions this.

"The upgrade process gave me a list of about 5 programs to un-install," he says. "Which I did, it was some drivers, iTunes and the Google Toolbar." What does the author say about this horrible, horrible thing? "I have to say that is about the most successful Windows upgrade I have ever personally experienced."

That's not sarcasm, that's not some biting commentary at microsoft, that is a user who is content with his instillation of Windows 7 on a computer. This is not an article about how microsoft is afraid of competition and squashes even the slightest attempt at competition, this is about how 3 people were relatively happy with their instillations.

The poster picked the single most insignificant statement out of context, and made it their headline. I'm not sure if the poster was being ironic, or trying to troll linux fans into reading a pro-microsoft article, but the summary has almost nothing to do with the article.

The upgrade didn't make you purge your computer of open source software. Windows 7 didn't make you uninstall OO.O, or even Lotus Notes (which really, needs to die). The upgrade did not purge your computer of competitor's software, it just so happened that those 2 programs needed to be reinstalled.

Re:Lie about windows to get posted on slashdot (1)

AK Dave (1459433) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829299)

I hate Windows as much as the next registered Linux user, and even I have to admit that this report is stupid. Gee, duh, it wants you to remove some software that has probably been demonstrated to interfere with the upgrade. Then you can add it back later. Is this any different than me rolling back to default video and a vanilla xorg prior to doing a big Ubuntu dist-upgrade next week? Not at all! It galls me to do this, but I have to give Microsoft credit (GAH! I DID IT!) for identifying software that might interfere with its upgrader and asking for that stuff to be removed for the upgrade. If I wanted to don my tin hat, I'd feel pretty silly complaining how MS is "targetting rival software" for removal so that WMP and Bing could take over after a Win7 upgrade. But I can't even joke about that with a straight face because it feels so silly.

Re:Lie about windows to get posted on slashdot (2, Funny)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829385)

I agree, but I can't resist...

content with his instillation of Windows 7 on a computer

I wish I could figure out how to instill Windows into my computer. Maybe even infuse it with Windows.

Re:Lie about windows to get posted on slashdot (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829447)

The upgrade did not purge your computer of competitor's software, it just so happened that those 2 programs needed to be reinstalled.

I can even tell you specifically why those 2 programs should be uninstalled then reinstalled after the upgrade. No, it's not because Microsoft's trying to stick it to competitors.

iTunes messes with your USB stack by installing system-level drivers, and since the whole underlying OS is changing, those drivers will likely not work right after an upgrade for reasons that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who considers themselves 'good with computers'. The best practice is to let the iTunes installer see that it's installing on Windows 7 and configure the drivers correctly for the new OS.

Google Toolbar installs differently depending on which version of Internet Explorer it's installing into. Vista users may be using IE7, whereas Windows 7 comes with IE8. Technically using the IE7 interfaces to extend IE8 is supported, but it forces some backward-compatibility hacks to be enabled, which slows the entire browser down. By uninstalling and reinstalling after the upgrade, you get the IE8 version of the Google Toolbar and it runs better.

Well, whatever it takes, right? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829141)

I mean, as others have pointed out, I guess it is necessary to make sure it installs correctly. And the article itself seems generally positive.

And we have a lot to look forever to. I guess you can say Windows is the Titanic of operating systems, completely unsinkable, and by that, I mean virus proof.

Compatibility? (4, Interesting)

holiggan (522846) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829209)

Can I play a bit of devil's advocate? My guess is that the need to remove iTunes and Google toolbar might be related to compatibility issues (i.e., the version that the users have currently not being the "latest" one, or the one "100%" compatible with 7). Without any more concret info, like the version number for iTunes of all the machines involved, if 7 "demands" diferent things with the same version installed, etc, we can't really be sure what's the issue here, and assume it's for the best for the users (not having potentialy incompatible software installed on 7).

Now before someone says "but I've been using iTunes 2.0 with 7 since forever!!", well, I'm just speculating as much as the next guy :) Afterall, this is Slashdot, right? ;)

One more /. non Issue here (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829303)

I'm definitely not a windows fan(or user). I'm totally a Linux guy, but it seams there's no issue here. The only issue I see is /. loosing credibility with this kind of stories. A major version change of operating system should be installed by a clean install and only morons upgrade. It's only natural that in the process of a new installation Windows tries to uninstall shitty software that mess with the core of the system.

Windows has plenty of real issues to bash about without this kind of shit.

If I was some windows user or Fan I would say: "If this is the kind of arguments /. has against windows all the other windows stories must be non-issues also"

Great they got it right now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29829483)

Yep, the windows malware scanner finally works! yay!

No problems here... Old versions maybe? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Freak (16973) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829495)

eh, I had no problems with the latest versions of both iTunes and Google Desktop (which includes Google Toolbar.)

Maybe they had older versions?

Heck, I had more compatibility issues upgrading from Leopard to Snow Leopard.

iTunes is evil (5, Interesting)

Toreo asesino (951231) | more than 4 years ago | (#29829503)

For some reason, Apple decided to use their own USB driver; one not exactly known for it's stability, evidently. Yes, Apple would rather risk your system instability than use a standard tried & tested driver to write files to any iPod. That'll be why Windows 7 doesn't like it I expect.

http://www.google.com/search?q=itunes+BSOD [google.com]

Sometimes I wonder if Apple make PCs crash deliberately to fuel their ad-war

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