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Engineers Tell How Feedback Shaped Windows 7

samzenpus posted more than 4 years ago | from the what-do-you-want-today dept.

Microsoft 452

An anonymous reader writes "Ars Technica took the time to talk to three members of the Windows 7 product development and planning team to find out how user feedback impacted the latest version of Windows. There's some market speak you'll have to wade through, but overall it gives a solid picture regarding the development of a Windows release."

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We Listened! (5, Funny)

db32 (862117) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834771)

We heard what you wanted and were sure to avoid those things at all costs. In the event that we could not avoid a given feature we made it practically impossible to use, moved the functionality to a new hidden location, or barrage you with popups and wizards to ensure you really want to use it.

Re:We Listened! (5, Insightful)

j00r0m4nc3r (959816) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834801)

"With Windows 7, Microsoft made sure that every edition of its operating system would run on low-end hardware. "One of the feedbacks that we got was how different the needs were for users on laptops compared to needs of users on desktops,""

Are you kidding me?! You're a company named Microsoft. You've been developing operating systems for 30 years. It took you this long to realize that different users have different needs, and that your OS should run on low-end hardware? And you only figured that out because of user feedback??
/me boggles

Re:Hesitant (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834973)

I also loved how the guys didn't want to compare their current progress to the BlackComb hype from 8 years ago and Cairo before that.

"Why waste good vaporware without a target to sink with it?"

Re:We Listened! (4, Insightful)

runyonave (1482739) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835003)

It's Microsoft, they take a very long time to do anything right (or do anything at all). Just look at Internet Explorer, they have been working on it since 1994. 15 years later, we are still YET to receive a browser from Microsoft that is at least more than 20% web compliant. As a web developer this dearly pisses me off. How is that Firefox, Opera even Safari can get complaince in the 75%+ rating and not IE. Now that boggles my mind.

Re:We Listened! (5, Insightful)

Again (1351325) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835291)

It's Microsoft, they take a very long time to do anything right (or do anything at all). Just look at Internet Explorer, they have been working on it since 1994. 15 years later, we are still YET to receive a browser from Microsoft that is at least more than 20% web compliant..

Microsoft does have the technical resources to make IE score 100% on the Acid3 test. However, it is not in their best interests to do so. Here is a quote from Bill Gates (taken from wikiquotes) which demonstrates Microsoft's business strategy.

One thing we have got to change in our strategy - allowing Office documents to be rendered very well by other peoples browsers is one of the most destructive things we could do to the company. We have to stop putting any effort into this and make sure that Office documents very well depends on PROPRIETARY IE capabilities.

This is the attitude that Microsoft is developing software with. Just look at the number of businesses that are stuck with IE6 because of some legacy ActiveX application. Microsoft's strategy is working very well for them and I don't see them ever changing.

Re:We Listened! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835007)

You make a fair point, although I don't understand how it relates to that of db32's.

Karma whores must be disciplined.

Re:We Listened! (2, Insightful)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835051)

/me boggles

Microsoft has a monopoly, they don't need to cater to users.

Users have to adapt to Microsoft. Haven't you noticed?

Re:We Listened! (5, Interesting)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835283)

Well not really. The sudden concern for netbook users was caused by the possibility that people might switch to linux. When the original linux powered Asus EEE PC was released, it was so popular, it pushed Microsoft into third place behind Apple and Xandros for OS shipments that month. I imagine that would give monkey-boy a bit of a fright.

Re:We Listened! (0, Troll)

Clairvoyant (137586) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835589)

So m$ admitting to actually listening to users means that they're finally acknowledging competitors again? It's about friggin time :)

Yes (4, Funny)

homey of my owney (975234) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834775)

Ummm.... We'd like it not to crash.

Re:Yes (5, Funny)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835035)

I'm fairly sure they would too :)

Re:Yes (3, Insightful)

berwiki (989827) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835137)

oh come on now. Since XP was released the random 'crashing' isn't prevalent any more.
If you have bad hardware or are overclocking, that is a different story, but also your own fault.
Lets be reasonable, this is like a wife of 30 years, bringing up stuff you did in high school!

Re:Yes (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835191)

This is like a wife of 30 years, bringing up stuff you did in high school!

I'm guessing you're not married.

Better than how the Linux people respond (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834793)

Read the fucking manual. It's supposed to work that way.

M$ is teh evil :-(>

I can see it now (-1, Troll)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834797)

User: Vista sux
M$: Ok, we will change the name to Windows 7
User: OK, glad you listened. Im ready to open my wallet.
M$: We know.

Re:I can see it now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834841)

What's your point? Wouldn't be first time so called 'critics' of Vista relied on FUD mongers to shape their opinions even if they had never used it themselves.

http://news.cnet.com/microsoft-looks-to-mojave-to-revive-vistas-image/

Captcha for this post: knaves

Re:I can see it now (2, Interesting)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834939)

What's your point? That mojave marketing stunt didn't address Vista's actual problems.

Yes I've used it. I found it hideous for all the usual reasons, plus some of my own.
My brief use of windows 7 RC just confirms that Microsoft are taking windows down a path that I don't wish to follow any more.

Re:I can see it now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835057)

So I guess you didn't "open your wallet" because of actual experience unlike the rubes in the Mojave tests, my post above stands.

There were people who had no problems with Vista, but inevitable problems when implementing something necessary (from a security standpoint) like the UAC + the Mac ads helped paint an undeserved albatross around Vista's neck.

Re:I can see it now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835205)

The way I remember it an "albatross" was a sign of good luck until some idiot shot it.

Re:I can see it now (1, Interesting)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835455)

I'll partially agree. You seem to indicate that Windows 7 is pretty much just a continuation of Vista. Truthfully, I can't disagree there. I've ran Vista on my laptop since launch date, and ran it for about 6 months on my desktop (I switched to 7 RC when it was released on MS's website for preview). Overall, after a bit of shakedown time, some driver updates, etc, Vista isn't THAT bad. Don't get me wrong, it shares the same issues and gotchas as Microsoft OS's always have, but overall, compared to other versions of Windows, I just didn't see what the fuss was about.

Windows 7 - truthfully, is about the same. It's little tweaks and there. Still behaves much like Vista. Still behaves like Windows. Take that as good or bad, but it's still Windows, and as someone still using both (and still using XP here at work), I think the most important new feature for Windows 7 as far as Microsoft is concerned is that it's something new that isn't named Vista.

Mojave was Vista SP1 (4, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835605)

What's your point? That mojave marketing stunt didn't address Vista's actual problems.

The Mojave ad campaign came out a few months after the February 2008 release of Windows Vista Service Pack 1, which did address technical problems with Windows Vista.

Yet another troll... (0, Troll)

Totenglocke (1291680) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834885)

Sad to see another anti-MS troll who's never bothered to use Win 7 and find out if it's good or not before bashing it. Vista sucked, as have most MS products. However, Win 7 is actually good. I know die-hard Mac fanboys who have tried Win 7 and loved it. The fact that you got modded insightful for trolling amazes me....

Re:Yet another troll... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835195)

Getting modded troll for pointing out that someone is trolling.....now that's an impressive abuse of mod points by anti-MS fanboys!

Another Slashervertisment for Bill's Winders (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834803)

What is with all the "Windows 7" articles recently? Yea, sure people need to know what is about to be shoved up their butts, however these are beginning to feel like slashvertisments.

Re:Another Slashervertisment for Bill's Winders (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835021)

Uhh, a major release of an operating system with 93% of market share dropped today. For some reason there is a lot of press coverage.

Idiot.

Feedback (5, Funny)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834809)

We took all the feedback.
Printed it.
Made bricks with the printed feedback and some glue.
Built a piramid with the bricks.
Painted it green and brown.
Called it Mount Feedji.
Burned it down in a massive party.

Then, still drunk from the party, we designed W7.

.

Ok, that was a lie. We didn't actually paint it. But we considered that suggestion for quite a long while.

Re:Feedback (4, Funny)

MRe_nl (306212) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834945)

I wanted to start a farm on Feedji, you insensitive clod!

Re:Feedback (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835355)

Please say they at least hit the Balmer Peak after the party.

http://xkcd.com/323/ [xkcd.com]

Let's give the devil his due (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834831)

Windows 7 plain rocks. Seems like Windows 2000 just got reincarnated and polished.

I've been running it for a while now and have no issues.

Re:Let's give the devil his due (1, Insightful)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834883)

Windows 7 is just rebranded Vista.

Vista wasn't terrible to begin with.

Windows 7 is about the same but it's no Mac OSX or Ubuntu, that's for sure.

Re:Let's give the devil his due (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835029)

I know, that god it's not like Ubuntu.

Re:Let's give the devil his due (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835305)

XP was windows 2k with a new coat too. Microsoft does things in a major/minor release schedule, One OS is the big kernal changes, the next is interface focused. 95->98, 2k->xp, Vista->7

Re:Let's give the devil his due (1)

Burnhard (1031106) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835347)

I know this is slashdot, but saying Windows 7 is not Ubuntu is just plain ridiculous.

Re:Let's give the devil his due (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835515)

Vista wasn't terrible to begin with.

Vista was terrible to begin with when it just got released. I ran it for 2 months, hoping for something to improve - some magic hotfix pushed through Windows Update, or better drivers, or whatever. I'm a patient guy, which is why it took 2 months to realize that I can forget about it till the service pack.

Vista SP1 now, that was usable. And, of course, 7 is built on everything that was in Vista SP2, and then there are some quite real tweaks perf-wise, and new taskbar is neat...

I have one other theory about why 7 is so much better received than Vista: part of it is the visual design.

If you recall, Vista had that weird color theme with yellow-green background and dark, almost solid black window frames and taskbar (and window frames were entirely black when maximized - and most windows are maximized when working). There also were those dark yet glossy green-cyan toolbars in Explorer that somehow made me think of uranium glass. The overall effect was fairly eye-straining and kinda "meh". It killed all the bling that Aero was supposed to bring on the spot.

Enter 7: bright blue wallpaper with a bright, highly saturated colored Windows logo in the middle. Almost transparent window chrome and taskbar with a light blue tint. Very pale blue selection highlight in menus, and toolbars are almost white. The entire design has a very "lightened" feeling about it because of the color choice.

I strongly suspect that, especially when seeing 7 right after Vista, there's a strong subconscious impulse to differentiate the two just because of the design difference, and not in Vista's favor.

MS moves fast (3, Insightful)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834859)

Over a decade ago, feedback for Microsoft software took place by filling out surveys on paper and floppy disks sent in to the company's headquarters. The ubiquity of the Internet has led to more feedback, faster.

And yet they could have used the Internet for feedback well more than a decade ago. Glad to see they've finally entered the mid-90s.

Re:MS moves fast (2, Funny)

lordandmaker (960504) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835073)

Come on, they're at least in the late nineties by now. They've got support for 64-bit architectures and everything!

Mojave Experiment 2.0 (5, Interesting)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834869)

7 truly is Vista SP3. And I don't say that in a negative fashion; Vista runs very well on my two desktops and laptop.

However, minus the new taskbar (which I think is a massive step forward), there really isn't that much that's new. A little bit faster, a little bit less buggy.

In the end, 7 is Mojave Experiment 2.0. Microsoft tried an ad campaign, it failed because people wouldn't get over how "bad Vista is". Microsoft gives it new clothes and a new name- now it's the best version of Windows EVER!

In short, Microsoft went back to marketing after the Vista launch floundered and destroyed its reputation (due to a bunch of underpowered computers with poorly written drivers giving the OS a bad reputation).

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834957)

You forget UAC. That annoyed many users to death. And don't say it was the application developers' fault; it's very hard to know the requirements of an operating system that will come out years in the future when you're writing your application.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1, Interesting)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835055)

It's just Microsoft's version of gksudo.

For security, and for forcing developers to have GOOD coding practices, I thought UAC was a good idea. So many Windows devs coded lazily, writing apps that shouldn't have required admin access, but did.

All Microsoft did in 7 is reduce the security, since many users will blindly click through whatever is shown anyways, and power users turn it off.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (2, Informative)

wampus (1932) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835117)

If an app was coded to work as a non-priveleged user in NT4, there was a pretty good chance it would work on Vista. Directory structure changed a bit, but the OS used symlinks and junction points to hide that from apps.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835351)

An application not written as an Administrator on the development machine would likely not run into most of these issues.

This ideal was hammered home before Vista was even announced.

In the cases where it still does, then it is generally in the best interest of the user to see these issues. In many cases, a lot of these issues can be fixed by simply rebuilding from a non-administrator account and watching what happens. The newer Visual Studios even have a few warnings built in for such cases.

UAC is one of the best things that Microsoft did for themselves, and in about a year, people will stop complaining about it, and just use it (unfortunately, likely just clicking Yes), and computers will become more secure for those that actually think twice. You can't beat stupidity, unfortunately.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835395)

It's even harder to know the requirements when Microsoft has been publically publishing them as a part of the security guidelines required to get Windows Logo certified since 1993.

UAC doesn't enforce or work around anything new, at all. These requirements have always been known. They've always been considered standard security guidelines on UNIX-based systems and have been the standard security guidelines on Windows since the Windows NT 3.1 release, the first release of a Windows kernel capable of enforcing any such restrictions.

Standard user accounts in Windows NT/2000/XP/2003/Vista/2008/7 have always enforced these rules, and because of such this software often simply failed. The answer from the companies that made this crappy software, including such companies as Adobe and Intuit, have always just replied to run as Administrator, often just because the program expects to be able to write files to the same directory as the program binary. Writing to /usr/bin is obviously a no-no in UNIX just as writing to %ProgramFiles% is clearly a no-no in Windows, but apparently a huge amount of software assumes that it can be done and it seems easier to just tell the impatient user to strip all semblance of security than it is to fix the application.

To claim that this can't be the application developers' fault is just stupid. If you found an application on Linux that "required" root privileges just because it violated the published and standard security guidelines for UNIX-based systems you would definitely blame the application developer. If that application developer ran as "root" while developing that application you would also admonish them. When people elect to ignore the guidelines and the safe practices in the name of convenience they get exactly what they deserve.

In my opinion MS should have just dropped the hammer, not permitted users to log in as Administrator, even from the console, and allowed all of these applications to fail. However, from the perspective of the user, including those on Slashdot, that would appear to be the fault of Microsoft. The answer is UAC. Apart from jailing the Admin account under the guise of a standard user and providing sudo functionality from non-Admin accounts (including prompting for the password, a better way to set up a Vista/2008/7 system), UAC also goes out of it's way to help poorly written applications silently succeed by handling common poor practices. For example, when that app attempts to write to %ProgramFiles% instead the file is written under the user profile. It might not be your favorite flavor of cake, and the icing is a bit granulated, but you get to have it and eat it too.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834967)

Would you consider a laptop with a core 2 duo 1.8ghz with 1GB of ram underpowered?

Because Vista is unusable on that hardware.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835015)

The Core 2 Duo, no. The 1GB of RAM, yes.

Vista needs 2GB to run comfortably, and with 3GB/4GB, it runs quite fast.

Given how much memory cost (forgetting today, when Vista came out DDR2 was cheap), I do think that it's underpowered.

As far as "bloat", yes, I do recognize that many Linux distros will run on much less. Ubuntu is usually happy with 512MB- anything more is gravy.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1, Informative)

tuppe666 (904118) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835561)

People seem to forget that most computers from OEM's came routinely with 256mb with a intel 915 chipset, at Vista launch. Thats ignoring netbooks that still do!! People talk about memory cost but not memory+OS cost or more likely memory+OS+Graphics card. Many motherboards at the time only take 2GB of memory and the cost of old memory with high capacity is expensive. Choosing the right Memory; Taking apart a box is beyond the capacity of most users, and for the ever growing laptop owners it is impossible to replace the graphics card. I say this at a time when most users have their computer for 5 years...and money is tight right now.

I have only one real Vista capable machine...and and I chose on OS that makes better use of those resources.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835071)

Would you consider a laptop with a core 2 duo 1.8ghz .

The laptop I bought 4 years ago at least had a 2ghz duo (which seems fairly robust to me... but

with 1GB of ram underpowered?

Because Vista is unusable on that hardware.

RAM starved to say the least. The last time I had 1 GB RAM was in college (I graduated in 2002). My preference is to always max out the board the first time, therefore saving money on micro-updates later. I really do believe it is the most effective thing you can do to speed up a machine. Sure, XP (and of course Linux) can run on 512 MB, Vista was a new hog in itself. With enough RAM, your processor would have been good enough.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

Again (1351325) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835425)

RAM starved to say the least. The last time I had 1 GB RAM was in college (I graduated in 2002).[...]

Interesting. I just upgraded from a laptop with 512 MB of RAM (333 no less) to a laptop with a whole Gig of DDR2 RAM. The only computing habit that has changed is that my use of flashblock is a little less liberal.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

trickyD1ck (1313117) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835537)

wow, you are so 1337!

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835161)

My father recently bought a budget Toshiba Satellite (Core 2 Duo 2.8GHz & 4GB RAM), and between Vista, the junky Norton security suite and all the other Toshiba crapware its performance was about that of my budget XP netbook when it was running of disk space.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835095)

microsoft not understanding what Customers want to do with an OS is not the Customers fault. If there were minimum specs to run it then the OS should just refuse to install if the hardware does not meet them. Vista got a bad reputation, because it was bad.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835159)

Oh, MS totally shot themselves in the foot by putting out minimum requirements for OEMs to stamp on PCs that the computer was "Vista Capable", and for disabling driver signing in x86 versions of Windows. Not debating that.

Vista wasn't inherently bad. MS just put out minimum specs that were way too low and didn't enforce driver quality.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (4, Insightful)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835199)

in spite of the hardware problems, I have used vista and I hated it. Why do I have to re-learn everything because microsoft wants to try to sell more copies of an OS? It should make you life easier, not harder. And completely ignoring things like boot time, security, and backwards comparability (the things the Customer actually cares about), while bending over backwards to make sure DRM for hollywood is in the OS is really just shooting yourself in the foot.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835601)

Why do I have to re-learn everything because microsoft wants to try to sell more copies of an OS?

What did you have to re-learn?

The thing most amazing to me about Windows is how similar every version is, and yet how many people claim there's this massive amount of retraining needed. Retraining for what!? The UI is almost identical to XP, except looking slightly different. The differences are so trivial that if you have Vista in "Classic" mode, and compared it to XP in "Classic" mode, you can't even tell the damned difference.

And completely ignoring things like boot time, security, and backwards comparability (the things the Customer actually cares about), while bending over backwards to make sure DRM for hollywood is in the OS

Windows being able to play Blu-Ray disks *is* something the customer actually cares about. And putting DRM in the OS is the only way to allow it to play Blu-Ray disks.

You're basically arguing: "Microsoft should do the things customers actually care about! Unless the thing the customer actually cares about involves working with the MPAA, in which case they shouldn't!"

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

orsty3001 (1377575) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835099)

I try to tell people this but they can SEE the improvements and how much better it works.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (2, Insightful)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835177)

Well, yeah.

Win 2000 = NT 5.0
Win XP = NT 5.1
Win Vista = NT 6.0
Win 7 = NT 6.1

What did people expect. It's not a new iteration, it's an enhancement. Just because they brand it as a new OS does not make it so.

Re:Mojave Experiment 2.0 (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835563)

7 truly is Vista SP3.

The line is always fuzzy and subjective. Was XP a "service pack for 2000"? Is the difference between pre-SP XP and 2000 really that much bigger than that between 7 and Vista?

Nothing to see here (4, Informative)

headhot (137860) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834889)

Its a pretty useless article. You don't get any more info out of the article then you get from the title.

Re:Nothing to see here (2, Insightful)

dunezone (899268) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835139)

Customer complained about feature "x", we evaluated feature "x", we concluded the customer was correct and we corrected feature "x" to customers suggestion.

Customer Support 101

Re:Nothing to see here (1)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835367)

That's why they call it astroturf.

The real process (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834893)

CEO: We can make a great product, or we can ship that pig for free right now and make some M*F*'in money off of dopes who don't know it's not better. Also, anyone who picks the first choice is fired.

Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than XP (0, Flamebait)

jkrise (535370) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834905)

is not an engineer. Windows 7 requires lots more RAM than XP and is slower than XP on the same hardware. That doesn't speak highly about those who engineered Windows 7.

In every other field, progress mans efficiency, not more bloat.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (5, Insightful)

int69h (60728) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834961)

XP requires TONS more ram than Window 3.1 and would be much slower on the same hardware. Do you not agree that XP is progression from 3.1?

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834999)

Do you not agree that XP is progression from 3.1?

Not nearly as big a one as XP to Windows 7. A better way for GP to phrase it would have been, "Windows 7 requires more RAM than Windows 7, yet still runs slower, and offers few new features."

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835309)

Windows 7 requires more RAM than Windows 7

A > A

*head explodes*

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (0, Troll)

COMON$ (806135) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835317)

Ya, having half to a quarter the vulnerabilities doesn't count as a feature for most people because it is something you cant see. What my last scans on a xp box showed (fully patched) was around 167 vulnerabilities, a fully patched windows 7 box not on a domain is 10, on the domain is 50 or so...Not to mention that a child can hack an xp box.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835359)

If you're suggesting that 3.1 to XP was a smaller move than XP to 7 then I'd like to have a bit of whatever you're smoking.

As a basic exercise: list the things relevant today that you can do on Windows 7 that you CAN'T do on XP. Now, list the things relevant today that you can do on XP that you CAN'T do on Windows 3.1. Guess which list is longer?

That isn't even going into things like stability.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (5, Interesting)

washu_k (1628007) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835535)

While I think you got it backwards, I get your point. 3.1 -> XP was a bigger jump than XP -> 7

However:
3.1 required 2 MB, ran OK on 4
XP required 128 MB and ran OK on 256. That is 64 times what 3.1 needed over 9 years
7 requires 1 GB and runs OK on 2 GB. That is 8 times XP over 8 years

7 doesn't look too bad.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (0, Redundant)

Totenglocke (1291680) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835125)

XP requires TONS more ram than Window 3.1 and would be much slower on the same hardware. Do you not agree that XP is progression from 3.1?

My country for a mod point!

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1)

dword (735428) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835401)

Where do you live?

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1)

tirnacopu (732831) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835445)

Win 3.1 - if you get it to run on 9 years old hardware, will run much slower than XP, even with the 32 bit extensions. I proposed 9 years because Pentium 4 was released then. XP would absolutely smoke any 3.x/9.x release on such a system, for anything remotely requiring multitasking.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (2, Funny)

EmperorKagato (689705) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835031)

That's Windows Vista and not Windows 7.
 
4chan has already posted a guide on what is the lowest system you can expect to get windows 7 running on.
 
I'm bringing this up as an example since it is source outside of the popular media.

And in Marketing Droid speak (1)

RotateLeftByte (797477) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835037)

"If the suckers can afford our crappy O/S(aka Vista)" then they can afford
- More RAM
- bigger Hard Drive

Same argument goes for Windows 7 except the HDD.

An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (1)

AP31R0N (723649) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835097)

You're ignoring that computers have more RAM available. My 5 year old machine is maxed at 4GB. The machine i'll build for 7 will likely START at 4GB. Did you miss the trend about computers having ever faster CPUs and more RAM and storage? How did that escape your notice as a member of Slashdot?

You're also ignoring that 7 will have more features than XP. Word is bigger than Notepad. Therefore Word is teh b10@3d!!! OMG!1! Bigger doesn't necessarily mean bloated. There might be some bloat, sure. But NEW FEATURES ADD TO THE SIZE OF SOFTWARE.

A bigger OS runs slower than a smaller OS on the same hardware? WOW. Thanks Capt. Obvious! While you're here, could you tell us if this water is wet? But why the fuck would i install a new OS on old ass hardware? Masochism? It's a cute experiment, but useless as a means to judge how a current OS will run on CURRENT hardware.

Re:An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (5, Insightful)

schnikies79 (788746) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835169)

From my observations, people are upgrading hardware at a slower and slower rate, so it is relevant. Most I know haven't done a major upgrade, outside of possibly adding ram or a changing video cards, in a few years and don't plan to anytime soon. Hardware has reached a "good enough" point.

I'm on a Athlon X2 with 4gb ram (maxed out). I have absolutely no intention of upgrading anytime soon.

Re:An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835203)

You're also ignoring that 7 will have more features than XP. Word is bigger than Notepad. Therefore Word is teh b10@3d!!! OMG!1! Bigger doesn't necessarily mean bloated. There might be some bloat, sure. But NEW FEATURES ADD TO THE SIZE OF SOFTWARE.

I've had to use a pre-release version of Windows 7 at work, for testing.

From my perspective, as a user, I haven't come across anything new Windows 7. What they have done is rearrange and hide everything for no good reason, and made it run slower than Vista or XP on the same machine.

Re:An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835327)

yes, because the fact that computers take 5 times longer to perform tasks that could be done with DOS 15 years ago is a sign of progress.

Faster hardware should do more than older hardware; not merely prevent bigger and fatter systems from running insanely slow.

Re:An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835449)

But why the fuck would i install a new OS on old ass hardware? Masochism? It's a cute experiment, but useless as a means to judge how a current OS will run on CURRENT hardware.

You should really go easy on slinging obscenities around like that, it makes you look silly. Installing a new OS on old hardware is a reasonable thing to do and so is judging Windows 7 performance on older hardware. Amazingly enough not everybody is willing to shell out money for a new computer every time there is an OS update. I went through four major OS revisions on my first Mac without ever feeling a performance drop. I know people who upgraded from OS 9 to OS X on old G3 boxes and most of them had no complaints other than than they decided to upgrade their RAM but that wasn't exactly a financially ruinous experience. According to our local Microsoft Rep Windows 7 will "Rejuvenate older machines and make them last longer because you will rediscover performance you thought you had lost" (that sentence loses some of it's marketing cool-aid flavor in translation). Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate neither that poster nor the Microsoft rep are 100% right or wrong, I know a number of people who upgraded old boxes to Windows 7, none of them are complaining but most of them also upgraded their RAM and a few bought a new HD which sounds about the same as the experience my friends had when upgrading from OS 9 to OS X on their G3 boxes.

Re:An F-15 is much bigger than a P-51. OMG BLOAT! (1)

Again (1351325) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835557)

You're ignoring that computers have more RAM available. My 5 year old machine is maxed at 4GB. The machine i'll build for 7 will likely START at 4GB. Did you miss the trend about computers having ever faster CPUs and more RAM and storage? How did that escape your notice as a member of Slashdot?

My head's in the sand dude. I don't hear much down here. Also, I'm a student who lives on old computers. Life's tough.

You're also ignoring that 7 will have more features than XP. Word is bigger than Notepad. Therefore Word is teh b10@3d!!! OMG!1! Bigger doesn't necessarily mean bloated. There might be some bloat, sure. But NEW FEATURES ADD TO THE SIZE OF SOFTWARE.

Thanks for finally saying something that I could hear. Head stuck in sand cuts out most people's voices but yours finally transcended the threshold necessary for me to hear.

you're being silly (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835215)

computers continue to grow in features for the same price. it makes absolutely no sense for microsoft to care one bit about how fast the latest operating system runs on old hardware. all microsoft has to deliver with windows 7 on new hardware is the same performance as xp on old hardware

sure, it could just mean more eyecandy and more background process bloat, but so what? as long as it is responsive enough, that's all the end user cares about. yes, there are a few obsessed fetishizing extreme users who care that the start menu loads in 130 ms rather than 13 ms, but i hardly think such people matter in microsoft's decision making process, nor should they

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1)

Davemania (580154) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835275)

Hardware cost has gone down and the computational power has increased significantly. More complex software can be developed. Just because something uses more disk space and memory does not mean it is inefficient.

Re:Whoever proposed a bigger memory footprint than (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835339)

is not an engineer. Windows 7 requires lots more RAM than XP and is slower than XP on the same hardware. That doesn't speak highly about those who engineered Windows 7.

In every other field, progress mans efficiency, not more bloat.

I disagree entirely. Win7 has a very similar memory requirement to XP. In fact, I have a P4 with 640mb ram that actually runs 7 smoother than XP.

Where's that option? (-1, Redundant)

scandalon (1021347) | more than 4 years ago | (#29834937)

Is there an option such as "Mod All Redundant"?

but overall it gives solid picture regarding the d (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29834951)

but overall it gives solid picture regarding the development of a Windows release.

yeah, I'm curious. We'll see. They painted a very nice yet ultimatelely picasso like picture of IE8 too - shambles

Marketing... (1)

orsty3001 (1377575) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835123)

Vista was the "New Coke" of OS's. Now we're back to "Classic Coke".

Re:Marketing... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835207)

Where does Coke in glass bottles with real cane sugar fall in this analogy? Because I want some of that.

Dear God... (4, Insightful)

X.25 (255792) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835171)

Windows 7 is another proof that enough marketing can make something good.

Windows 7, Windows 7, Windows 7, ...

I yet have to find someone who can show me what it brings me, over XP, that is worth paying 100+ EUR for.

Re:Dear God... (1)

Neffirithion (950526) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835407)

I yet have to find someone who can show me what it brings me, over XP, that is worth paying 100+ EUR for.

Thats a simple answer: Its not worth the upgrade from XP. If I had to pay for it (getting it free through university) I wouldn't be using it. I would only wait till I built a new computer, and even then it would probably dual boot to XP for better gaming.

Re:Dear God... (2, Funny)

TaggartAleslayer (840739) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835475)

Continued support?

Re:Dear God... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835553)

So instead of waiting for 2 years for patches, we don't have to wait at all (because there won't be one).

Sounds good.

Re:Dear God... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835573)

Of course there's nothing in Win7 worth spending 100+ EUR for over XP.

Fucking DUH.

That doesn't mean though that Windows 7 isn't a well designed OS, signifigantly better than Vista (despite the Vista similarity).

I won't replace my corporate MS licenses with Win7 either...waste of money...but I'm not going to avoid ordering new PC's with Windows 7 on them either, which I did with Vista.

Honestly, even with the debacle that was WinME, I still wouldn't advise spending money to upgrade your OS. Free or near free (Linux, OSX), fine, upgrade to your hearts content...but who cares about the OS as long as it bloody works?

Windows 7: "I'm up here, boys!" (5, Funny)

tenzig_112 (213387) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835259)

I get the impression that the Windows 7 launch is a lot like seeing an old girlfriend suddenly show up on your doorstep wanting to get back together. She's had some work done, apparently: stomach stapling to take off some of the weight, breast augmentation, and a radical nosejob to make her look as much like your current girlfriend as medical science will allow.

She's pretty, of course, almost too pretty. She still wears far too much makeup and carries that desperate look in her eyes. The fragrant haze around her is the perfume she overuses to mask the scent of failure.

But standing there in that low-cut top, you'd almost forget for a moment what a psycho she was- how she used to shut down in the middle of a date and forget everything you were talking about and how she was only happy when you were buying her things. You'd almost forget about carrying around her legacy baggage or those nights when, for seemingly no reason at all, she would simply stop speaking to you and when you asked what was wrong she'd just spit a string of hex code at you and expect you to figure it out.

You complained about her for years before finally deciding to get rid of her, and here she is again. Though, somehow she seems like a completely different person now.

"I'm up here," she says when she catches you staring at her chest.

Tempted though you may be, you know that over time she'll get bored and slow down on you just like she always does. And then you'll be right back where you started: trapped. She keeps you by convincing you that you don't have a choice. You're just not smart enough for one option or rich enough to afford the other.

"But I'm different now," she says, batting her eyes innocently. "I've changed."

Indeed she has. Apparently, she's really into Cabala now or something like that. It's helped her discover loads of untapped potential in herself. But it also means that you'll have to buy all new furniture to fit with her understanding of feng shui. That's not the only change she has in store for you. The minute you let her move in, she'll have a new alarm system put in that succeeds only in preventing your friends from coming over on poker night.

She doesn't love you, but she doesn't hate you, either. The truth is that she couldn't care less one way or the other. She's here because she doesn't want to be alone. Like all human beings, especially those well past their prime, she wants to feel wanted and, after a string of lost jobs and bad investments, she needs a place to stay.

But all in all, she's OK. She's a seven. She'll do, I guess.

Waffle? (2, Insightful)

Burnhard (1031106) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835269)

The article waffled on a bit and at the end of it I'd learnt absolutely nothing, because they didn't actually say anything.

the hard worker (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835281)

I have one thing very clear. Vista did the hard work that was needed to be done to change the way of Windows. Vista was a big step forward for Windows and a problematic one too.

Window's Explorer... (3, Insightful)

FlopEJoe (784551) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835321)

Can I just have a 64-bit windows operating system that will keep up with the latest graphics drivers. And bring back classic XP Window's Explorer... I hate Vista's Explorer with a passion. If you change something, make a classic version!

Re:Window's Explorer... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29835533)

uhhh, both ATI and Nvidia release 64 bit drivers with the 32 bit drivers on the same schedule.

You can actually have XP classic, but that would make you insane.

Windows 7 audience... (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835345)

Perhaps this is a bit of a troll, but it comes from frustration using the products...

I notice in TFA that the photo is of, what looks to be, a fifth grade classroom. Is this the target audience for Windows 7? I mean the commercials - er commercial - seems to be of that seven-year-old girl making a pink-pony presentation.

I'm confused. Is Windows 7 and Office 2007 -- which I hate, by the way (shakes fist) curse you "ribbon"! -- suppose to be so simple a seven-year-old can use it, or so simple that only a seven-year-old can use it.

I guess Microsoft is trying to hook them when they're young...sigh.

Now there's a title... (1)

interval1066 (668936) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835349)

"...we had the pleasure of talking with...members of the Windows 7 product development and planning team: ...Cameron Turner, Group Program Manager for Telemetry."
He must coordinate the product launches with Houston.

Lack of feedback (3, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835485)

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but one of the things I truly love about OSS development is how transparent development is. I can easily contact the developers. I can submit bugs.

I have tons of usability gripes with Windows. I've never felt like I could submit feedback to Microsoft that might be seen and looked at.

marketing waffle (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835487)

"Last night, we had the pleasure of talking with three members of the Windows 7 product development and planning team"

There's you problem right their, no mention of the people who actually write the code, and it's a little late to the party to figure out that the end users might have a clue as to what they want. A simple uncluttered desktop that does what you want.
-------

Key Words:

beta feedback, beta testers , bugs were squashed, change, compatibility,, data-gathering, development principles, discussions,, diverse set of datapoints, drilling , emotional value, enterprise customers, explanations, feedback, focus, footprints, fundamentals for PC experience, improve the experience., initial hypotheses , internal processes, iterating,, leverage, listening,, market research,, outreach,, partners , performance,, pipelines, planning,, primary research, process, product development and planning team, quantitative data, quantitative panels, reacting , richness of the Windows ecosystem, security, snapshots, surveys, telemetry data, tenets, the user experience perspective, trends, triangulation, UI decision, unsatisfying emotion

... and the media blitz for Windows 7 begins (1)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#29835599)

... I am surprised that Ars Technica fell for being Microsoft's tool.
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