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China Expands Cyberspying In US, Report Says

samzenpus posted about 5 years ago | from the what-do-you-got-there dept.

Security 186

An anonymous reader writes "A new report published by The US-China Economic and Security Review Commission wags a finger at the People's Republic of China for conducting Internet-borne espionage operations against United States high-tech companies. The paper, written by defense giant Northrop Grumman, provides a detailed case study of one such intrusion that moved large volumes of sensitive tech data out of a US firm in 2007. From a Wall Street Journal article, '"The case study is absolutely clearly controlled and directed with a specific purpose to get at defense technology in a related group of companies," said Larry Wortzel, vice chairman of the commission and a former U.S. Army attaché in China. "There's no doubt that that's state-controlled."' Wang Baodong, a spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, criticized the commission as "a product of Cold War mentality" that was "put in place to pick China to pieces." He added: "Accusations of China conducting, or 'likely conducting' as the commission's report indicates, cyberspace attacks or espionage against the US are unfounded and unwarranted.'"

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Checking (5, Funny)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | about 5 years ago | (#29835949)

China is just checking to see where all it it's money is going.

Re:Checking (5, Insightful)

Wowsers (1151731) | about 5 years ago | (#29836025)

And America is NOT spying on China?

Re:Checking (3, Insightful)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | about 5 years ago | (#29836211)

And America is NOT spying on China?

Does it matter? Sure - some element is going to be all outraged. After all, who isn't shocked to find gambling going on? But really this is all about pointing out that there is, indeed, an issue that needs to be addressed. And if we don't address it, we have nobody but ourselves to blame.

Re:Checking (1)

WaywardGeek (1480513) | about 5 years ago | (#29836283)

Hey, it's only evil when they do it. China spying on the US isn't exactly new. It use to be (still is?) common for China to pay US immigrants to be spies, and not just a few - many thousands of them. I have a friend who caught Japanese industrial spies taking apart a stepper machine used to make ICs. It's pretty rampant.

On the positive side, spying leads to transparency, and helps ease tensions between powers. Of course, I'd prefer that the US maintain some sort of military technology lead, given that we pay for it.

Re:Checking (1)

fprintf (82740) | about 5 years ago | (#29836559)

Wait, so what is the relationship/proof of Chinese spying here? That your friend caught some Japanese spies?

Re:Checking (2, Interesting)

Teancum (67324) | about 5 years ago | (#29836709)

The "People's Liberation Army" has an entire battalion that is dedicated to hacking "the West" and conducting electronic intelligence gathering via the internet. That most of these folks do their stuff in China is besides the point.... which by definition is "legal" as it is officially sanctioned by that government.

Of course the U.S. Air Force also has a similar team (I don't know how large of a unit) that does essentially the same thing on behalf of the U.S. Government.

Perhaps the original commentary is paranoia based upon actions of the U.S. government.... realizing that if they can screw somebody else, we must be getting screwed too. I'd call that fairly good proof.

Re:Checking (3, Interesting)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 years ago | (#29836359)

Of course the US is spying on China. What's amusing about this is that the Chinese government appears to think everyone else is complete simpering retards.

Re:Checking (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837629)

the Chinese government appears to think everyone else is complete simpering retards.

Considering that we are talking about a country whose majority believes that Bush and Obama are suitable for the Presidency, the Chicoms just might be onto something.

Re:Checking (1)

jayme0227 (1558821) | about 5 years ago | (#29836367)

One more reason to move all sensitive data offline, at least in relation to certain sectors of both the government and economy. It takes just one idiot to put everything in danger.

Re:Checking (2, Interesting)

Teancum (67324) | about 5 years ago | (#29836649)

Naw.... America is too busy spying on its own citizens to care even in the little bit that comes from abroad.

Of course, the same could be said about China. This inter-governmental spying is just the small stuff in the grand scheme of things. Both countries are far more paranoid about their own citizens than by anything another country could do.

Re:Checking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836673)

And America is NOT spying on China?

Are you actually suggesting that our spying legitimizes their spying?

Where the fuck were you raised that allowed you to conceive such a thought? You sound like a totalitarian, so clearly you're not a patriotic citizen of the US.

The difference (2, Insightful)

MikeRT (947531) | about 5 years ago | (#29836759)

Even supposing that the US is spying on China's corporations to the same level as they do everyone else (unlikely, given how much worse China is for this than most developed countries), Chinese corporations would have recourse in the US against such actions if they discovered them. Try being an American company in the equivalent situation in China. The PRC would laugh itself silly at an American company's grievance.

Re:Checking (3, Insightful)

Blakey Rat (99501) | about 5 years ago | (#29837287)

Objection! Relevance!

Didn't anybody tell you as a child that two wrongs didn't make a right? Regardless of the US' spying capabilities, the issues brought up in the article are still issues.

Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks. (Which, while arguably morally wrong, is at least accepted as a fact of life.)

Re:Checking (2, Insightful)

Red Flayer (890720) | about 5 years ago | (#29838325)

Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks. (Which, while arguably morally wrong, is at least accepted as a fact of life.)

Ha ha. Very funny. We're talking about defense contractors here. Effectively, they *ARE* part of the government. In the same way that some of the semi-private companies in China that the US spies on are effectively part of the Chinese government.

The line between government and private corporation is very blurry these days (and always has been, for 'defense contractors').

Re:Checking (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 5 years ago | (#29838375)

In China the corporations and the state are pretty much the same thing.

The US is entirely different.

You see in a free country business and government are separate. It's just that the people who run them all went to the same schools, are members of the same clubs and play golf together.

Re:Checking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29838475)

You see in a free country...

In a free country...
Hahahahaha!!!

Re:Checking (2, Informative)

Yvan256 (722131) | about 5 years ago | (#29836047)

It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."
Its is the possessive form of "it."

Re:Checking (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 5 years ago | (#29836187)

Bob: "It, Could you lend me the red pen for a sec?".
Its: "NO! It's mine! Get your own red pen!"

Re:Checking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836489)

"No, its mine!" would have been correct, GP is right. Stop trying to correct people who are already correct.

Let me be the first to say it: (4, Insightful)

kheldan (1460303) | about 5 years ago | (#29835955)

The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (5, Informative)

eldavojohn (898314) | about 5 years ago | (#29836143)

The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

Allow me to second this notion and also point out that the ambassador nor anyone from China will address the reports concern's item by item precisely because much of this is common knowledge. Why doesn't the ambassador deny the reports of a civilian based 'information war militia' being formed in Yongning County as the report alleges?

The phrase "Cold War Mentality" is thrown around too much these days [chinadaily.com.cn] . The problem with the original cold war mentality was several fold. One point being that the buildup of nuclear weapons was not only a threat to the countries who intended to use them against each other but a threat to the entire world. In addition the two countries did not exact harm directly upon each other but rather used countries like Vietnam, Afghanistan and Cuba as conflict points ... putting those innocents in a very dire situation for years to come. While the buildup between China and the United States is a threat to the internet and networks internal to those countries, it is unlikely these wars will be fought in puppet theaters. This is not a cold war mentality nor is the United States anywhere close to creating another Cold War scenario.

This is an issue between China and the United States, it's not a 'Cold War mentality' when you're keeping tabs on threats to you. Every country does it. The fear here is that China is dipping into/forcing a civilian base to partake in information warfare. If we were writing this report about being afraid of China for it's pool of computer science resources, we would be much more afraid of India--the largest pool of information technology.

If country A developed a militia or civilian based attack (physical or cyber) on country B, country B will address the threat. If China is claiming this report is full of lies, let them address and disprove this report instead of using vague concepts to discredit the United States. Don't hold your breath.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

Publikwerks (885730) | about 5 years ago | (#29836223)

So what your saying is we need to outsource our cyber-warfare to India?

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (2, Funny)

eldavojohn (898314) | about 5 years ago | (#29836309)

So what your saying is we need to outsource our cyber-warfare to India?

Yes. And apparently our grammour to Great Britain.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (0)

Publikwerks (885730) | about 5 years ago | (#29836425)

I find it double-plus good that when the the revolution comes, the grammar nazi's will be the first to go

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836681)

grammar nazi's

Well, until the revolution gets here you still aren't allowed to use apostrophes to pluralize.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

Publikwerks (885730) | about 5 years ago | (#29837037)

What are you's gonna do about it? Send me to grammer jail? Ridicule me on the internet? Pleaze

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (2, Funny)

networkBoy (774728) | about 5 years ago | (#29837851)

The Spanish Inquisition!

Bet you didn't expect that, HA!

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

Culture20 (968837) | about 5 years ago | (#29836583)

While the buildup between China and the United States is a threat to the internet and networks internal to those countries, it is unlikely these wars will be fought in puppet theaters.

Puppet theaters like zombie civilian PCs around the world?

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (2, Interesting)

Red Flayer (890720) | about 5 years ago | (#29836605)

Allow me to second this notion and also point out that the ambassador nor anyone from China will address the reports concern's item by item precisely because much of this is common knowledge. Why doesn't the ambassador deny the reports of a civilian based 'information war militia' being formed in Yongning County as the report alleges?

...

If China is claiming this report is full of lies, let them address and disprove this report instead of using vague concepts to discredit the United States. Don't hold your breath.

If Glenn Beck did NOT rape and kill a girl in 1990, let him address the claims and disprove them.
/sarcasm

You talk about problems with the Cold War mentality, but what you're addressing is just problems with nuclear weapons technology (MAD necessitating the need for war via proxy). The Cold War mentality that is being talked about is something different... it is about demonization of your economic and cultural rival, and polarization of the world political stage. You think the term is used too often... maybe it's because you're unclear on what is meant by use of the term?

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836835)

The Cold War mentality that is being talked about is something different... it is about demonization of your economic and cultural rival, and polarization of the world political stage. You think the term is used too often... maybe it's because you're unclear on what is meant by use of the term?

If you're right about its meaning, I find it odd that it was the Cold War to define this and not every other conflict prior to the Cold War. Demonizing your your economic and cultural rival is nothing new and can probably be traced back prior to agriculture if records existed.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

Red Flayer (890720) | about 5 years ago | (#29836887)

The reason the Cold War was different is because of the polarization of the world political stage without direct military aggression.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (4, Insightful)

WindBourne (631190) | about 5 years ago | (#29836683)

This is an issue between China and the United States,
Actually, this is NOT an issue between China and America. It is an issue between China and the west. China is not just trying to undermine America, it is the entire west. That includes all countries that are west friendly. For example, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and India are slowly being intimidated. China is now pointing 1000's of missiles at Taiwan. In addition, they have started a new build-up of Missiles, and general military along the Indian border and is trying to lay claim to land that was decided over 100 years ago. They have started to grab water resources and are laying claim to areas of India that rich in natural resources. They did the same thing in 62 just before they attacked. This time, they have 8-10 ICBM launching subs as well as a quickly increasing number of missiles on that border.

Within the next decade, possibly 5 years, China is about to get VERY aggressive.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

couchslug (175151) | about 5 years ago | (#29836267)

It is the duty of every government to spy on the competition for both military and economic information. The Chinese, US, and any other government would be negligent if they didn't look for every advantage.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

metrix007 (200091) | about 5 years ago | (#29837843)

Sure, because you're in a position to know.

Personally, I'd be much more concerned with the US and having an illegal base in Cuba and kidnapping and detaining innocent people unlawfully.

Re:Let me be the first to say it: (1)

suso (153703) | about 5 years ago | (#29838005)

The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

I'll second, third and fourth that. Either Wang Baodong is a complete idiot or he's just trying to cover things up.

While Northrup Grumman Expands Cyberspying (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29835963)

in the U.S. !

Why do I found the report suspect when the author is part of the military-industrial-health care-complex?

Yours In Novy Urengoy,
Kilgore T.

Re:While Northrup Grumman Expands Cyberspying (3, Informative)

megamerican (1073936) | about 5 years ago | (#29836253)

Shhhh.... People aren't supposed to know that the company crying wolf is the one who has the most to gain and is probably the one who is responsible for the alleged attacks.

US: Contractors Vie for Plum Work, Hacking for U.S. Government [nytimes.com]

And the race to develop weapons that defend against, or initiate, computer attacks has given rise to thousands of “hacker soldiers” within the Pentagon who can blend the new capabilities into the nation’s war planning.

Nearly all of the largest military companies — including Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon — have major cyber contracts with the military and intelligence agencies.

Daniel D. Allen, who oversees work on intelligence systems for Northrop Grumman, estimated that federal spending on computer security now totals $10 billion each year, including classified programs. That is just a fraction of the government’s spending on weapons systems. But industry officials expect it to rise rapidly.

The military contractors are now in the enviable position of turning what they learned out of necessity — protecting the sensitive Pentagon data that sits on their own computers — into a lucrative business that could replace some of the revenue lost from cancellations of conventional weapons systems.

Domestic Spying, Inc. [corpwatch.org]

http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=11 [corpwatch.org]

I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (4, Insightful)

mi (197448) | about 5 years ago | (#29836007)

I'm shocked to discover, an emerging world power is spying on the existing world power and is trying to get its weapons technology...

Seriously, this shouldn't even be news. What countermeasures are being taken is a lot more interesting — for both us and the Chinese — but should be kept just as secret for the latter reason...

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | about 5 years ago | (#29836093)

It's not news to people who are in these environments - in that line of business. Its probably news to some of the general public.

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (1)

Goffee71 (628501) | about 5 years ago | (#29836105)

Our defense is:

All our code has bugs
All our weapons don't work
All our technology is too expensive to be affordable

It'll take them a couple of decades, but they'll catch on.

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836499)

It needs to be made news because legislation and funding are best fueled by outrage. You don't want a campaign slowed down by tedious discussions of proportional response, and enforcement of basic known security practices that industry & gov are so lax about. Expect to hear a lot more.

Worth noting that Grumman's long-time competitor Lockheed [slashdot.org] just won a related contract.

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836505)

Emerging is no longer an appropriate adjective for China. They are most definitely a bonafide world power.

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837307)

Emerging is no longer an appropriate adjective for China. They are most definitely a bonafide world power.

not with a largely brown water navy they aren't.

Re:I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!.. (1)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | about 5 years ago | (#29837563)

I'm shocked to discover, an emerging world power is spying on the existing world power and is trying to get its weapons technology...

Seriously, this shouldn't even be news. What countermeasures are being taken is a lot more interesting — for both us and the Chinese — but should be kept just as secret for the latter reason...

You hit it square on the head - countermeasures allow for not only stopping intrusions but feeding bogus information or incorporating features in software that may be useful in the future - trap doors, equipment malfunctions, etc.

there's a nice layer of deniability here (5, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29836069)

the chinese hackers doing this are mostly motivated by ultranationalist impulses. they are self-starting, they are not command and control from the central government. if they discover any informational gems, the desire to report this to the government is also completely voluntary and desirable from an individual nationalistic point of view. if useful enough, such hackers can be brought into the fold and become a genuine command and control tool of the government, but this is at the late stage of things

of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default

luckily, tribalism is never stronger than principles in terms of motivations that win over others on the global stage. chinese censorship is creating a generation of cottonheads in its youth, unable to see the wider world for what it is. youth from countries with open and transparent media, and without hermetically sealed censorship of the level china employs, are meanwhile more globalistic and principled in their attitudes, rather than tribal. of course nationalistic, tribal thinking exists in all countries. but only in places like china and iran, who feel the need to control the media, does the nationalism rise to the level of blind passion: these minds simply aren't exposed to other opinions

so china has developed a wonderful machine for keeping china safe and secure from the outside. but as china begins to emerge as a player on the world stage, it is going to have to think on the world stage, not simply react from the point of view a cloistered hermit kingdom that imagines itself walled off from the wider world and its concerns

china will never lead in this world as long as it breeds children who can't think about anything except china. critical thinking only comes from exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. the chinese are raising their children to have no criticla thinking skills, to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

Parent is spouting propaganda (1)

Conzar (1603461) | about 5 years ago | (#29836431)

"the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default"

Have you ever been to china? Do you know anyone from china? I have both visited and have many friends from China. None of them are nationalistic and all of them are sceptical of their government.

i have been to china (3, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29837143)

even the most skeptical about the government's censorship excesses are still completely nationalistic. for example: it is not questioned, in the least, that tibet is part of china

with a straight face, tell me a chinese director could make a "dances with wolves" style movie about chinese troops in tibet, and that such a movie would as widely praised and be as popular with chinese citizens as the real "dances with wolves" was with americans

Re:i have been to china (1)

Conzar (1603461) | about 5 years ago | (#29837675)

"it is not questioned, in the least, that tibet is part of china"

Its as much a part of China as Hawaii is a part of the United States.

100% correct (4, Informative)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29837963)

and, in hawaii, i can stand on a street corner and say so. i can go on a website and say hawaii should be independent. no us official will punish me. in fact, if a us official tried to punish me for expressing my political opinion, that official in turn could be punished, sued, even possibly charged with a crime. would that be true of the beijing official who cracked down on the tibetan's expression of political opinion?

i can make a movie about the injustice of hawaii being part of the usa. i can create a political party to that effect. on the mainland usa, i can view said party's literature, i can agree with it, openly, and i can even give that cause money. can a resident of shanghai do that?

http://www.freehawaii.org/ [freehawaii.org]
http://freehawaii.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/ [hawaiiankingdom.info]

where are those servers located?

they are located in the usa

they are freely allowed to run by the us government

can you say any of those things about what tibetans can do?

a better allegory would be if you had used puerto rico rather than hawaii as an example. puerto rico is not a state of the usa. puerot ricans can not vote for american president. yet in puerto rico, votes continue to come up, and PUERTO RICANS (not washington dc) continue to decide to be part of the usa as a commonwealth by a vast majority rather than be an independent country (they do this for the generous financial reasons of this commonwealth situation)

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/15/us/puerto-rico-votes-to-retain-status-as-commonwealth.html [nytimes.com]

By choosing to maintain the commonwealth status that has been in place here for more than 40 years, Puerto Ricans made it clear that they prefer "the best of two worlds," in the words of a pro-commonwealth campaign slogan, to the prospect of more intimate ties with the United States. By an overwhelming margin, they also rejected independence, the third option that had been offered to them in the nonbinding vote today.

do you really think any of that would be true for tibet and tibetans? if tibetans could vote like puerto ricans, what would tibetans choose?

china uses tanks and coercion, the us uses votes and consensus

so do you really believe your comparison between tibet and hawaii is valid in any way whatsoever?

Re:Parent is spouting propaganda (1)

Threni (635302) | about 5 years ago | (#29837179)

I went there (schenzen or something - near Hong Kong) and it was shit - sort of like Wales would be if it were under martial law. I didn't see a single person smile. I was held up at passport control for an hour because the tour operator omitted a leading zero from my passport number - like anyone is going to try to break in to that shithole! (I could understand it if it had been on the way out)

Re:Parent is spouting propaganda (1)

Quinapalus (1335067) | about 5 years ago | (#29837567)

I have never met one Chinese-born person at University who believed that the Communist Party should step down from power or criticized the government in any fundamental way. Not one. (Chinese-Americans, of course, are all over the spectrum when it comes to the Communist party and their right to rule.)

It's actually quite surprising because otherwise these are very smart people. However, if you ask about human rights violations, censoring, corruption, pollution, etc, they all just revert back to the party line. The ability of humans to have function despite cognitive dissonance is amazing.

This always makes me uneasy, because these are the Westernized elite, who in some cases have lived in America for a number of years. I can't imagine what the typical uneducated peasant must think.

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (3, Informative)

cabjf (710106) | about 5 years ago | (#29836435)

I see you read the same article I did a while back. I don't remember the magazine, but it outlined how the Chinese government basically turns a blind eye to the actions of these ultra-nationalistic hackers. Then it recruits the best for it's actual espionage programs. The author even followed his or her contact with one of these hackers who seemingly disappeared and turned up later under the employ of the regional government. I don't know that locking down the media is the only thing at work here. Look at the US from the 40's and 50's. Because of WWII, most everyone was on this lasting high of nationalistic pride, especially as our economy and power grew. I think many in China, especially those who are too young to remember the upheaval and killings of the Cultural Revolution, are under a nationalistic spell due to the growth that parts of the nation has been experiencing. Just wait until their government starts screwing things up and they'll have their own version of the 60's and 70's. If the upcoming generation is ultra-nationalistic, it follows that a future generation will rebel by questioning authority.

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (2, Insightful)

Teancum (67324) | about 5 years ago | (#29837027)

If the upcoming generation is ultra-nationalistic, it follows that a future generation will rebel by questioning authority.

I don't necessarily see this as a given in China. Their culture is one that strongly respects authority (it has for the past 3000 years) and doesn't take too kindly to revolutionaries under any government that has ever existed in that country.

If you are comparing that to the USA.... America was founded by a revolution, by pig-headed individuals who didn't respect authority and almost always thought that its leaders were a bunch of morons and idiots that were barely tolerated because somebody had to do the job. It still is the case today. That folks in the 1960's and 1970's in America questioned authority has more to do with a younger generation who actually studied their own history and realized what America was really about. Bowing down to authority has rarely been considered an American trait.... even when Americans are found in other countries.

The USA in the 1940's and 1950's rallied to a strongly nationalist tendency because most intelligent people realized that the very existence of the American Republic was at stake and if something wasn't done to stop the scourge of the enemies of America, that they could end up being dead and everything that they held dear to themselves ruined. That happened after 9/11.... but ultimately it was proven that Al-Queida was a joke of a threat and that the larger threat was the U.S. government itself. That opinions differed in terms of how the citizens of America should deal with the threat of the government against its own citizens has not been focused or even of the same mind also says a whole lot about the diversity of opinions about the topic... and much about the current political climate in America as well.

China is a much more different place, and even "revolutions" tend to take on a much more ordered and structured form... such as the events of Tiananmen Square of a couple decades ago. Given the same circumstances and motivations in America.... the tanks that came to disperse the crowds for a similar kind of event happening on the Washington D.C. central mall (the area between the White House and the Capitol Building with all of the monuments) would have been demolished from improvised explosives and other heavy calibur weapons. It certainly would have been a bloodbath of a far larger kind.

60s style revolution attempted in china already (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29837091)

it ended in tiananmen square

the worst the us government came up with as a response to the 60s was kent state

there were (and are) plenty of command and control arrogant authoritarian assholes in the us government who were itching (and are itching) to go hardline on the 60s countercultural revolution and its political effects. luckily, they didn't prevail, and are still not prevailing. however, such authoritarian assholes are clearly prevailing in china

its really hard to put a flower in the tip of a national guardsman's rifle and make a potent image and political point when said gun is actively firing on you

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (1)

nomad-9 (1423689) | about 5 years ago | (#29836467)

"of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically"

How is that worse than US media completely controlled by a handful of corporations outputting the same crap ? Do you really think that the US youth in its majority is capable of critical thinking? Are you capable of critical thought ? Because your "blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots" comment is way too simplistic and does not speak in your favor.

Have you ever considered that it is precisely ultra-nationalism and "tribalism" that could actually help China be the next superpower and crush the competition? I guess not.

dead meme: the usa is controlled by corporations (2, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29836995)

i guess you missed the memo

i see whistleblowing on corporations and where they do evil all the time in western media. the same would be completely covered up and whitewashed in china. do you understand the level of pollution chinese companies get away with in china? if chinese companies tried to pull in the west the kind of crap they get away with routinely in china, the media would start a firestorm. oh, in fact they did: melamine in food, ethylene glycol in medicine, lead in toys...

witness:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/showcase-65/ [nytimes.com]

look at those pictures. this is what companies get away with in china. if you showed such pictures in the west about a western company doing that somewhere to people in the west are you going to tell me they get away with anything near remotely as murderous in the west? i'm not asking for historical examples, i'm asking for the here and now. plenty of western companies pollute outside the west... and chinese companies just as much if not more now. here in the west, western companies are sued and erin brockovitched to death. while in china its carte blanche, standard operating procedure: poison poor chinese with impunity

and deny this:

one of the most influential and deeply historically entrenched american businesses has been systematically dismantled over the last 20 years in the usa. its media edifice hamstrung and turned against itself, all of its entrenched political players and lobbying and propaganda utterly defeated. i'm talking about the tobacco industry. where's this amazing western corporate control of our lives again?

i am very sick of this meme that companies control everything in the west

of course money has too much influence in politics. as if this is unique to the west, or even the worst in the west. there are actually are laws about crass manipulation. so the money has to flow in soft ways, in indirect ways, and so its not as big a deal as certain propagandized "money controls everything in the west" fools believe. go back a hundred years, when the obsession was with preventing pinkerton gangs from breaking up union demonstrations with kneecap busting, with breaking up business monopolies, with establishing a standardized hours per workweek, from doing away with child labor, etc. meanwhile, in china, its communist in name, but more ultracapitalist than the usa in reality. try to get your stereotypes in synch with reality please

it is in fact the solid truth that in china, companies have much more influence and arrogant assumed right to pretty much murder, while in the west they are regulated and hounded by the media constantly. no such hounding in a government monopoly media in china, regulations only after they prove embarassing and hurt the bottom line in china

"Have you ever considered that it is precisely ultra-nationalism and 'tribalism' that could actually help China be the next superpower and crush the competition? I guess not."

actually, it won't help china. you need to cooperate on the world stage. you assume for some bizarre reason that india, russia, europe, brazil, etc., will simply roll over and take blatant han imperialism without any resistance

don't buy it (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 5 years ago | (#29836607)

I'd expect the chinese internet censorship would severely limit the ability of "citizens" to gain access to restricted foreign web resources. At least those citizens who did not have special privileges, such as living in places like Hong Kong where the restrictions are less. Plus, the chinese authoritites monitor all their citizens' web usage, so a bit of freelance spying would be easily detectable (and would obviate the need to report finding to the government: they'd already know what a person had found, from monitoring that person's usage)

In fact hacking through a foreign governments secret, but badly secured websites could severely damage a citizen's health (fatally!) if it caused that website to improve it's security - thereby making it harder for the real spies to gain access.

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (1)

immakiku (777365) | about 5 years ago | (#29836623)

You've actually made some pretty loaded comments. Let's first ignore your assumptions about Chinese youth being made brainless by their media based on what you see in your media.

From my understanding, your main point is that China will need to have more open and engaging policies in order to sustain itself in the global economic and political arena. Though this sounds good in theory, you haven't provided any evidence why this should be true. All prior experience suggests they are doing fine and are rising to the challenge of managing policies in a non-open spirit. Economically the size of the population has proven to be a major growth factor; there's no indications of that approaching a limit yet (not just for China).

It's easy to be dismissive, but it's much more useful to employ some of the critical thinking you touted.

china will never lead on the world stage (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29836741)

as long as china is simply concerned with china

that's not loaded, its simply straightforward and obvious

you criticize what i say with a point of view which is not relevant to my conclusion:

"From my understanding, your main point is that China will need to have more open and engaging policies in order to sustain itself in the global economic and political arena"

i have no confusion or misunderstanding that china can and will continue to take care of itself- to sustain itself

but it won't LEAD

and if china can't lead, then leadership in world affairs will not flow from washington dc to beijing, it will stay in washington dc. if anything, it will flow to brussels, since europe is not a closed, censored media market

by censoring its media, china is creating a generation of dunderheads, only capable of seeing one point of view. if that point of view is "what is good for china" then that is fine if all you care about is china sustaining itself economically and politically. as if that is the only relevant point of view, and more to the point, as if that is the most useful point of view for china's future on the world stage

Re:china will never lead on the world stage (1)

immakiku (777365) | about 5 years ago | (#29837125)

Historically who hasn't been primarily concerned with their own welfare more than the welfare of others? Only the top few spots have the luxury of worrying about others. Before humans were the top of the food chain, we didn't care at all about animal rights. This is hardly a valid criticism - whatever nation has sufficiently taken care of itself will spread their attention wider.

to a point (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29837319)

your observations are fine in a vacuum of any other considerations. but if you compare how children are raised in the west, their media market, with children raised in china, the chinese media market, you are not creating a generation of critical thinkers in china because there is no exposure to anything other than "what is good for china". "what is good for the west" is still a valid concern in the west, but in the west, via self-criticism, you sometimes wind up with an even better answer to the question "what is good for the west"

self-introspection, self-criticism, does not necessarily result in a tampening down or destruction of self-centered greed. oftentimes, it actually results in better ways to enrich yourself. in other words, the guy who only thinks about "what is good for me" sometimes cannot see that what is best for him is something he would never see if he was unable to articulate, appreciate, and examine alternative points of view. cooperation and paradoxically giving rather than taking often result in more self-enrichment than simple blind obsessive "me, me, me"

of course there are also plenty of nationalistic blind morons in the west, and critical thinking is a rare commodity anywhere. but the mind is a muscle: use it or lose it. a media environment that challenges people with alternative points of view results in a mind that can justify what it already believes even better, or alternatively, adapt a superior point of view

raising that same mind in a hermetically sealed environment where "harmony" is valued over sometimes ugly truths results in minds that can't always see what is best for them, even if that is their only concern

what is best for china? sometimes, it is self-criticism. is that allowed in china? no. that's my point: what is best for china is not served by being singularly obsessed with what is best for china to the exclusion of any criticism and alternative points of view. a bunch of unthinking robots is all the current chinese media climate creates. this doesn't actually serve china in the end, it impoverishes china because such nationalistic fools do actions which often hurt china, internally and externally

Actually, you do have this wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29838329)

China is already leading. They are running around teaching a number of African and South American nations Chinese. Add to that they are buying any and all resources regardless of their leaders. They are also supplying weapons and associated IP to nations like North Korea, Burma, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. China IS leading. And they are QUIETLY building up a new axis to take on the west. Only they will be in charge.

all of the deals (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29838521)

that china makes in africa and south america are for the benefit of the chinese

what do you think happens when south americans and africans start asking what is best for south americans and africans?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8314534.stm [bbc.co.uk]

you can throw your weight around, but you can't lead, until you think about what other people want. which you can't do, if you've grown up never thinking about that, since your country didn't let you be exposed to anything outside the bubble of official chinese thought

dealings with others in the world is built on consensus. this is direct contrast to chinese authoritarian thinking. meanwhile, anyone raised in a democratic environment, which is also built on consensus, are naturally better suited to the task of world leadership

the chinese will never lead in the world, until they change their way of thinking. sure, world leadership in the hands of washington dc may be in sunset, but if anything, it will pass to brussels, not beijing

the chinese stranglehold on chinese media creates robots, not critical thinkers. if you prefer cotton candy "harmony" over ugly truths and uglier dissent, your mind is free of struggle, but it is also free of thought. why the chinese government thinks its citizens are children is beyond me, but i have more respect for chinese citizens than beijing does

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (2, Interesting)

CodeBuster (516420) | about 5 years ago | (#29836661)

to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

Who know how to handle a rifle and follow orders without question. Critical thinking may be indicative of greater cultural sophistication, but that didn't prevent Rome from being sacked by barbarians who, though lacking in culture, were handy with a sword.

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 5 years ago | (#29836745)

the Chinese hackers doing this are mostly motivated by ultranationalist impulses. they are self-starting, they are not command and control from the central government. if they discover any informational gems, the desire to report this to the government is also completely voluntary and desirable from an individual nationalistic point of view. if useful enough, such hackers can be brought into the fold and become a genuine command and control tool of the government, but this is at the late stage of things
You are missing some VERY important parts to this. It is not just a crime to crack in China, but it is a death sentence if you are caught. OTH, Chinese gov. quietly rescinded that IFF the crackers will do only western citizens/countries/companies and then share the information with the gov.

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here (1)

foobsr (693224) | about 5 years ago | (#29837385)

the chinese are raising their children to have no criticla thinking skills, to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

The 'West' are raising their children to have no critical thinking skills, to be blind, cotton-headed corporate robots.

I fail to see a significant difference, perhaps there is a bigger 'error/failure' rate in either camp.

CC.

completely wrong (2, Informative)

circletimessquare (444983) | about 5 years ago | (#29837723)

in the west, i can view any media source i want. in the west, i can criticize my government freely

in china, i can't view any media source, plenty are blocked. additionally, if i say something that criticises the chinese government, i can be monitored, perhaps punished

the difference is real and significant in terms of the types of minds that are created. there are plenty of nationlistic idiots in the west. but in china, there are many more, as simple result of the fact that the chinese government policy encourages the creation of tribal han and their self-comfort

apparently the chinese government thinks chinese people are pets, slaves, incapable of their own opinions. the chinese government thinks that adult chinese have to be treated like children

by any objective, heck, by any subjective measurement, in the west i clearly have orders of magnitude more freedoms of expression and political opinion than i do in china

which means i am able to fully express my mind as a fully capable human being. the chinese, meanwhile, are only allowed to be children, to be unquestioning robots. this is not my opinion. this is the obvious policy of the chinese government: the chinese people have to be controlled, they can't be treated like adults, they can't be trusted

i have a higher opinion of the chinese people than their own government. why?

Why spy anyway (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | about 5 years ago | (#29836077)

Isn't everything made in China these days? There's no need to spy companies, just wait for them to get the manufacturing contracts with a Chinese company.

Score: 50% funny, 50% scary.

Re:Why spy anyway (1)

Asic Eng (193332) | about 5 years ago | (#29836793)

That's a very good point. Furthermore - a lot of the stuff which isn't made in China is made in Taiwan. China's official policy is that they want to take over Taiwan - either by peaceful means (sorta, with thousands of missiles targetted on Taiwan and rapidly increasing military buildup) or by direct force. A huge chunk of the world's computer and semiconductor industry is in Taiwan, losing that to China is a huge strategical risk.

Despite that the US has been dragging their feet when it comes to let Taiwan buy military hardware, and now is watching while the new president of Taiwan allows China to buy stakes in high-tech companies, allows companies to move even more production sites to China etc. (I guess you can't blame them - it's better to surrender than to be annihilated.)

Re:Why spy anyway (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837651)

The third world war has been going on for at least the last two or three decades.

Except this time the armies are companies and the weapons are simply currency.

Look who wrote the report (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836087)

Nothing like a good scare to rake in some more of that military industrial complex funding pork. It might be true, it might not be, but the incentive for the writer is clear. Too bad it is impolitic towards China at best, but they don't care. They need monies to fight ebil cybercommieterrists, whether those actually exist or not.

Northrop Grumman (5, Insightful)

royallthefourth (1564389) | about 5 years ago | (#29836091)

A military contractor wrote a report making a foreign power look like a military threat.

I don't doubt China is spying here, electronically and otherwise. However, it seems like a conflict of interest to have someone who would benefit from escalated military production evaluating our military needs.

Then who? (1)

tacokill (531275) | about 5 years ago | (#29836365)

Ok, fair enough. Who would you suggest is better qualified to write a report like this? The Armed forces who are actually doing the fighting? Think tanks? God-forbid, politicians? The general public? Who, exactly, is better qualified to do the research and write a report like this?

Also, are your "doubts" based on anything at all or is that just somekind of gut feeling you have?

I am asking because some of us on this site see the things they speak of in this report. This isn't some esoteric intelligentsia news story. This stuff that is happening in our sandbox and has for multiple years now.

Re:Then who? (1)

iamsolidsnk (862065) | about 5 years ago | (#29836485)

Agreed. Someone must do this type of research with clearance level access. Better to have educated, vetted, background-checked individuals doing this than the public-at-large.

Re:Then who? (1)

r_jensen11 (598210) | about 5 years ago | (#29836503)

How about Switzerland?

Re:Then who? (1)

royallthefourth (1564389) | about 5 years ago | (#29836507)

The NSA ought to have enough knowledge. If not, congress can fund them instead of a private contractor.

The military-industrial complex is a threat to the entire world. Eisenhower knew what he was talking about.

Re:Then who? (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 5 years ago | (#29837171)

The NSA has produced MANY reports saying this. Sadly, many ppl do not take it serious because they claim that it is part of the American gov. So, this was spun off to allow an independent look at it. And now, fools are claiming that they should not be the ones doing it.

In the end, it does not matter what happens HERE. What matters is what Obama and the current pols (dems) as well as the entire western/western friendly gov. will do.

Re:Then who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837127)

Obviously it's Blofeld. Obviously.

Re:Then who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837805)

How about a not-for-profit defense contractor?

Re:Northrop Grumman (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837167)

You don't seem to understand how the Military-Industrial-Complex is supposed to work, do you? /siphoning funds since 1961

Pure unadulterated government propaganda (0, Troll)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | about 5 years ago | (#29836101)

This report and story are simply American government propaganda. It is difficult to keep Americans believing that this is the "Land of the Free" without creating some sort of external threat. Sometimes those nasty Iranians with their nuclear missile programs are the biggest danger to our American way of life. Other times, it's those copycat Chinese with their industrial espionage trying to take jobs away from good, hard working Americans.

The story in this case is based on the assumption that there is anything worth stealing that is stored on Internet-reachable servers. It's a completely different story when you start questioning why secret information would be put anywhere near the biggest information network in the world. Is the problem a nefarious hacker country, or is the problem an incompetent American government?

Odds are both. However, remove the beam from thine own eye, and all that.

You are both wrong and right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836555)

Is this American Propoganda? There is most likely an element of that. It was chosen to be released, rather than kep quiet.

OTH, is the report accurate? Most likely. China has been building up a military like never seen before. In addition, they have spies over the ENTIRE western nations. They are known to have at least 8 boomers and 8 attack subs. They are getting ready to launch new military only space stations to which the ONLY use of, would be for weapons. Worse, it appears to be multiples. BTW, this space station is different from their quasi-civilian space station that will go up later.

You can chose to dismiss the report, but it does not mean that it is worth having the west look at what is happening. To not do so, is foolish. It is no different than when so many in EU and Australia claimed that Bin Ladin was a threat ONLY to USSR. Now, they are attacking Russia, China, America, and starting in on EU, and Australia. Basically to ignore how China is operating also is to ignore history; 1930's Germany comes to mind.

Easier taking data from "The Cloud"? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836107)

Imagine how much easier it'd be to get this sort of information as businesses and individuals start using cloud computing.

Then again, cloud computing is all about the centralization of control. That fits in perfectly with the Chinese philosophy of governance.

Oh look, (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836153)

it's THIS thread again!

Just China. (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 5 years ago | (#29836159)

What did they expect? A polite call? A mail?

"Excuse me. We'd like to know about your military efforts. Thank you."

Or is it just a case of: "Countries spy on each other. News at eleven."

goes both ways (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 5 years ago | (#29836207)

I'm sure every country is spying on every other one - including so-called "allies". All this tells us is there's one single case study where someone's internet security wasn't up to scratch.

Oh, Please (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836241)

Report prepared by group who's going to benefit from new contracts against the "threat"
Spreading fear is great money making machine.
Stop this paranoia.

Why China is Blocked (4, Insightful)

CodeBuster (516420) | about 5 years ago | (#29836289)

This report demonstrates precisely why many companies, particularly those with no direct overseas connections, black hole the entire IP ranges of countries like China, Russia, and others. While this does not entirely prevent attacks originating in those countries it does put one more roadblock in the way of any would be attackers (i.e. they must first compromise some other US host before launching their attack through that host). According to the report linked in the TFA, the attackers were able to RDP into company computers directly from China...doh!

Pleaseeeeeeee (2, Interesting)

bullwin69 (521778) | about 5 years ago | (#29836291)

Are you kidding me.This is what keep everybody in business. I would have a problem believing them if both sides said they where being good boys and girls

China spying against the US? (0, Troll)

Tanuki64 (989726) | about 5 years ago | (#29836297)

Im shocked. Really shocked. Or perhaps not...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#cite_note-zeit-0 [wikipedia.org] In other words: So what? Is normal competitive behaviour when the USA is spying, but evil when the USA is the victim? Cry me a river.

What an outrage! (1, Interesting)

Akita24 (1080779) | about 5 years ago | (#29836355)

They should know better! Shame on them! Everybody knows it's only good/moral/OK if WE do it. Sheesh.

And now we are helping them (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836379)

Recently, Obama moved all of ITAR regulated space goods to being under department of commerce. This is the same group that allowed various space companies to work closely with China under Clinton. Problem is, that all of the fixes that were done to China's rockets were transferred to China's nuke missiles and it now appears that same tech was transferred to North Korea AND Iran (both of their missiles showed up with similar fixes). So, now, Clinton's transfer to tech has enabled China, NK, and Iran to land a missile within 1 km diameter or less. Before, none of them could hit within 100 km, which is why China was not putting up space cargo.

Between bad moves on American dems and EU liberals, combined with China's illegal spying, it is safe to say that China will surpass the west militarily much faster than expected.

And this is new, how? (1)

stakovahflow (1660677) | about 5 years ago | (#29836447)

Seriously, how is this a new thing?

This happened at my company... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836449)

I worked in Nuclear security, and a Chinese programmer before I was hired ran off with the source code to our nuclear security system and went back to China with it. It is happening.

And we fund such activity via lopsided trade (3, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | about 5 years ago | (#29836483)

go figure. It's like over-feeding a pet until it's large enough to eat you, and then complaining that it's eating you.

Screw China (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836537)

Their government has no conscience whatsoever. All I know is communism leads to a society that doesn't innovate.

Hype? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836603)

US is the economical, technological and military superpower; there is no surprise that China, or any other country would be attempting to steal knowledge from them. However, the question is, do they actually succeed? Considering the advancement of the US, and that any medium to large enterprise will have dedicated IT staff to monitor and protect their network, I would be really surprised if most attempts were successful at all. There is certainly some breaches, but not at an alarming scale.

This study was contracted with Northrop Grumman Corporation, which is:
"Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) is a leading global security company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in aerospace, electronics, information systems, shipbuilding and technical services to government and commercial customers worldwide."

How convenient would it be if the US government decide to invest billions in cyberspace protection.

Aw, c'mon... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29836907)

I couldn't get past this: "Wang Baodong" (the spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington...)

Mom! Hes spying on me! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 years ago | (#29837501)

USA: Mooom! He's spying on me!

China: Nuh-uh! You can't prove it was me!

Ob (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | about 5 years ago | (#29838309)

I heard they had an elimination style competition with varoiious rounds of hacking to see who'd be the head of the cyber espionage unit.

And when they got down to the final survivor they said "You are the geekiest chink!".

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