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Appeal For Commuter GPS Logs To Aid Electric Cars

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the where-did-you-go-this-summer dept.

Transportation 144

holy_calamity writes "A team at Carnegie Mellon University has begun a project seeking to design a kit to cheaply convert secondhand cars into cheap, electric ones suitable for commuting, if little else. They hope to rely heavily on smart management software to extract as much efficiency as possible from regenerative braking, and knowledge of terrain from GPS tracking. But they are hampered by a lack of public data on how commuters actually drive. Their solution is to appeal to GPS users to upload .gpx log files of their commute to the team's site. The data is plugged into a simulator that reveals how much cheaper an electric car could do your journey, and an anonymized public dataset will be created. A programming contest will award a production electric car to the coder who designs the best management algorithm using it."

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Regenerative breaking? (4, Funny)

Shadyman (939863) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944082)

Is that where they break, and then fix themselves?

I am Car of Borg. You will be assimilated.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (2, Funny)

olsmeister (1488789) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944114)

A variant of ye olde perpetual motion machine.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944452)

Is that where they break, and then fix themselves?

No, it is a series of electricity saving dance steps from the streets.

Regenerative Breaking 2 - Electric Boogaloo.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

Kneo24 (688412) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944948)

While you were jesting, you actually aren't too far from the truth. To over simplify what it does, all of that excess energy created while braking, it dumps that energy back into the battery (or fuel storage device) to help keep it charged. I honestly don't know how much of an effect it has on the batteries to help keeping them charged, but it does do a little charging. I guess the more efficient the system, the more impact it has.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

Rei (128717) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945544)

In a NiMH hybrid, it regens about 1/3rd of the energy. On a li-ion EV, it's about 2/3rds.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

FatdogHaiku (978357) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946366)

The problem is dumping that much power into a battery quickly. I remember reading about buses that captured braking energy by compressing nitrogen gas and then using it immediately to help get rolling again. More recently I read about the same idea with hydraulics instead of gas (pneumatic). This works well for things like buses because they stop so often, but it may also be more efficient for family vehicles in urban driving as well.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947802)

The problem is dumping that much power into a battery quickly.

Don't they dump the power into capacitors first then send it to the battery in controlled doses?

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

physburn (1095481) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945434)

I'm sure you where just writing to be funny. But regenerative breaking is an incredible energy saving technology. An electric generator with (important) electromagnets is attached to one of the axles. When the electromagnets are off the axles can spin freely. When the car brakes the electromagnetics are turned on, and the generator starts converting the momentum of the car, back into electrical energy. In inner city, stop, start, traffic conditions this saves an enormous amount of power. Regenerative breaking makes the difference between eletric automobiles being a pipe dream, and an efficient inner city car.

---

Electric Vehicles [feeddistiller.com] Feed @ Feed Distiller [feeddistiller.com]

Re:Regenerative breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29945918)

That would be regenerative braking. Hence the joke.

Captcha: exhausts. Kinda ironic.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945948)

But regenerative breaking
is an incredible energy saving technology.

Homophone Fail.

And I believe a WHOOSH too.

When the car brakes the electromagnetics are turned on, and the generator starts converting the momentum of the car, back into electrical energy.

RIGHT.

Regenerative breaking makes the difference between eletric automobiles being a pipe dream, and an efficient inner city car.

WRONG.

It's not funny if you have to explain it.

Re:Regenerative breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946410)

He was joking about how "braking" was misspelled. Since you made the same mistake, repeatedly, I'll explain it: Braking = applying the brakes in a vehicle. Breaking = damaging something. The two terms are not interchangeable.

Old cars never die (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944084)

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

  • Linus Torvalds [microsoft.com] is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.
  • Richard M. Stallman [geocities.com] , spokespervert for the Gaysex's Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad.
  • Alan Cox [microsoft.com] is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual [goatse.fr] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [microsoft.com] , which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.'

As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [salon.com] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says. 'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts. 'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo [comp-u-geek.net] slut [rotten.com] !

Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual [goatse.fr] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [slashdot.org] . To quote from the article linked:

'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis [rotten.com] in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?

We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.' Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual [goatse.fr] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual [goatse.fr] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.

Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.

In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups. The Slackware [redhat.com] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes. Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of claw arse, a reference to the homosexual [goatse.fr] practise of anal fisting. The Mandrake [slackware.com] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator. It was also chosen because it is an anagram for dark amen and ram naked, which is what they do.

Another 'distro,' (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco,' which is where homosexuals [goatse.fr] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is Debian, [mandrake.com] an anagram of in a bed, which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares. 'Woody' is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male penis [rotten.com] , glistening with pre-cum. But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato' that they use. This filthy term, again found in the secret homosexual [goatse.fr] 'Sauce Code,' refers to the solo homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid. The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.

And Red Hat [debian.org] is secret homo [comp-u-geek.net] slang for the tip of a penis [rotten.com] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.

The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! For example, the 'supermount' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland. 'Automount' is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to mount each other [comp-u-geek.net] automatically.

The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points.' These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration. The main one is obviously/anus, but there are others. Militant fags even say 'there is no/opt mount point' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.

More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love `man`, even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out `man`. In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.

Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherit gayness. For example, people are often told of the 'FAQ,' but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [amiga.com] users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: Faggot Anal Quest: the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!

Even the title 'Slashdot [geekizoid.com] ' originally referred to a homosexual [goatse.fr] practice. Slashdot [kuro5hin.org] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting. The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous homosexuals [goatse.fr] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, http://www.eff.org/ [eff.org] .

The editors of Slashdot [slashduh.org] also have homosexual [goatse.fr] names: 'Hemos' is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from 'Homos.' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco,' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [pboy.com] . (The best form of lubrication, they insist.) Sometimes, these 'Taco Commodes' have special 'Salsa Sauce' (blood from a ruptured rectum) and 'Cheese' (rancid flakes of penis [rotten.com] discharge) toppings. And to make it even worse, Slashdot [notslashdot.org] runs on Apache!

The Apache [microsoft.com] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after homosexual [goatse.fr] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, the Village People, featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.

And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.

To summarise: Linux is gay. 'Slash -- Dot' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus. And BeOS [apple.com] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.'

FEEDBACK

What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do. I'm scared I actually read this whole thing. I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people. This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this. And actually take the time to do it too. Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code' once. Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel'?), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species. It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [comp-u-geek.net] -calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.

You must work for the government. Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes. If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Doesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters? You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man. Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond? The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [goatse.fr] child molesting Linux advocacy. Hell, they've given NAMBLA free reign for years!

you really should post this logged in. i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you. -- mighty jebus [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Thank you for your kind words of support. However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously. This is because the 'Open Sauce' movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom. I speak for the common man. For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's vagina [bodysnatchers.co.uk] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child. These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture. I am the unknown liberator [hitler.org] .

ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

We shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society. This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [rotten.com] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [zillabunny.com] .

Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works. I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum. I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely in case you're interested. (Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?) -- double_h [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code' is riddled with bugs that need fixing. (The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: 'Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow.' And anyway, the PS2 [xbox.com] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money. Intellivision forever!

dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

For one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, NT [linux.com] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them. Remember, a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [atheism.org] . Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor. All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems. It is the only route to salvation.

Secondly, this message is for every man. Computers know no colour. Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by a Black Man [stileproject.com] . Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.

And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace' for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them. -- phee [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Although there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that Perl [python.org] (standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle,' 'Pearl Nosering,' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema.'

One scary thing about Perl [sun.com] is that it contains hidden homosexual [goatse.fr] messages. Take the following code: LWP::Simple -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it? But look at the line closely: There are two colons next to each other! As Larry 'Balls to the' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation, Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing,' whereby two homosexual [goatse.fr] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together. They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone. This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as 'Parameter Passing.'

And PHP [perl.org] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration. Didn't you know?

Thank you for your valuable input on this. I am sure you will be never forgotten. BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars? Mars rulaa. -- Eimernase [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I do know that homosexual [goatse.fr] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.

That's inspiring. Keep up the good work, AC. May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again. Yours, Cerberus. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

*sniff* That brings a tear to my eye. Thank you once more for your kind support. I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [atheism.org] 's work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.

However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot. It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical. Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an 'extension' to the Linux 'Sauce Code,' for the sake of 'interoperability.' (The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind.)

In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (Love of Anal Naughtiness, needless to say.), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the 'Samba Mount,' into their homes. Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal. Eventually, the 'Samba Mount' collapses due to 'overload,' and needs to be 'rebooted.' (i.e., kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime' in such situations.

Inspiring stuff! If only all trolls were this quality! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

If only indeed. You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible. I recommend '+1, Underrated,' as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [slashdot.org] . Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture. Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender'???

If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived forever! Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!

It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [catholic.net] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow. It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.

As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it. When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours,' but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two,' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.

I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I sincerely hope you're Natalie Portman [geocities.com] .

Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading. Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it. As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time. 10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass. Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software. Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that. Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise. For concision is the soul of derision. Way. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

What the fuck?

I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed. In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [comp-u-geek.net] tend to be full of. Thank you again. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well bugger me!

ooooh honey. how insecure are you!!! wann a little massage from deare bruci. love you -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Fuck right off!

IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not HURD [linux.org] , which is an acronym for 'Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator') across the whole community, so it has been released into the Public Domain [icopyright.com] . You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [apple.com] (Gay Penetration License) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest feces-encrusted [rotten.com] cock. I would have put this up on Freshmeat [adultmember.com] , but that name is known to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.

Come to think of it, the whole concept of 'Source Control' unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control,' which is a description of the homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum. And 'Open Sauce' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later. Obviously, 'Closed Sauce' is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.

Contributors: (although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit' that open 'sauce' development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward. Further contributions are welcome.

Current changes: This version sent to FreeWIPO [slashdot.org] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text. Reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links). Even more spelling fixed. Who wrote this thing, CmdrTaco himself?

Previous changes: Yet more changes added. Spelling fixed. Feedback added. Explanation of 'distro' system. 'Mount Point' syntax described. More filth regarding `man` and Slashdot. Yet more fucking spelling fixed. 'Fetchmail' uncovered further. More Slashbot baiting. Apache exposed. Distribution licence at foot of document.

ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass!

CMU can pay for it. (0, Troll)

tjstork (137384) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944098)

Only a dope should turn over their data to CMU. CMU has a ridiculous endownment, every federal incentive and bonus imaginable, ridiculous property rights and almost institutionalized military support. So, they can come up with a few pennies to pay people for their data that they stand to make even more millions of dollars on.

Re:CMU can pay for it. (2, Informative)

DemianJ (30140) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944462)

If I'm not mistaken, CMU has a small endowment for a University of its size and stature (Just over $1 Billion), you'll find it trailing many universities [wikipedia.org] . That said, I believe CMU does receive more than its share of grant, research funds and donations (Tepper, Gates, etc...) for buildings, etc...

Re:CMU can pay for it. (1)

smoker2 (750216) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944628)

Ah, truth, justice and the american way. How refreshing.

Re:CMU can pay for it. (1)

tjstork (137384) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945224)

Ah, truth, justice and the american way. How refreshing

Damn straight. If you are so hot to trot for people to work for free, then you should work for free for me.

Re:CMU can pay for it. (3, Insightful)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945378)

Well, once would have to wonder if CMU produces any IP as a result of this free data, would they release all copyrights and patents for free?

Or is that different?

TomTom (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944108)

TomTom has been collecting this data for years for their IQ Routes:

    http://www.tomtom.com/page/iq-routes

Did CMU ask them ?

Re:TomTom (1)

dotwaffle (610149) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944428)

It's probably a lot more sensible to use the data over at OpenStreetMap, actually...

Re:TomTom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944552)

It's probably a lot more sensible to use the data over at OpenStreetMap, actually...

I dont think you understand what data is being collected.

My experience (3, Insightful)

rrohbeck (944847) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944112)

From what I see here in rush hour, you only need boolean control: Full throttle or hard braking. When I coast towards a red light, there'll always be someone next to me who steps on it and cuts in front of me.

Re:My experience (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944226)

Yeah I wrote travel time algorithms for freeway travel in my last job. The travel time was pretty much directly related to the length of the queue at the end of the freeway.

Re:My experience (3, Funny)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944384)

Yeah I wrote time travel algorithms for freeway travel in my last job. The queue travel was pretty much directly related to the length of the freeway at the end of time.

Re:My experience (1)

w0mprat (1317953) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945276)

I had a time travel algorithim for my freeway commute, got pulled over at 87mph so never got to try it out.

Re:My experience (2, Interesting)

Interoperable (1651953) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945138)

I love the people who tailgate using boolean throttle techniques; they constantly alternate between slamming on the accelerator then the brakes to maintain a constant average speed. It's only slightly better than driving at a constant speed while simultaneously applying the brakes and the accelerator but it clearly projects to drivers around them that they're morons...which I assume is the idea because I can think of no other reason why they do it.

I think every new car should have a system that calculates how much fuel you consume and compares it against how much you should have consumed for the same distance and average speed if you were driving optimally. It could then use current gas prices to give you an output in dollars wasted. You could think of it as an idiot tax for poor drivers.

Re:My experience (0)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945414)

"You could think of it as an idiot tax for poor drivers"

Oh, that's not any worse than someone who sells a paid-for SUV and then gets themselves into $25K of debt for a Prius because the gas mileage is better.

Re:My experience (2, Insightful)

Interoperable (1651953) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946312)

If they got $0 for the sale of the SUV I'd say they deserve a $25K idiot tax.

Re:My experience (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946356)

Yeah, its like a tax, except the money goes to oil companies instead of the government, although there isn't much difference these days.

Braking (4, Informative)

wildsurf (535389) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944136)

It's "braking," people. Braking. Though in the case of electric cars, that usually means decelerating/regenerating. The friction brakes on my Tesla still squeak after 12,000 miles of driving.

Re:Braking (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944336)

I wonder if electric cars will start to sacrifice power to brake without using friction. The benefit would be longer service intervals, at the cost of some power. I wouldn't be surprised if electric cars in a decade or so have a single friction brake for emergencies and parking with brake pads which last the life of the car.

Re:Braking (2, Informative)

wildsurf (535389) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944622)

Michael, you have it actually backwards. Electric cars gain energy by braking without friction. The rotating wheels of the car act as a generator, converting the car's kinetic energy into electricity with about 70% efficiency. That's why the friction brakes on my Tesla still squeak; because the regenerative deceleration is enough 98% of the time, and I rarely need to use the friction brakes.

Another nice feature of the Tesla is that the regen is triggered merely by lifting off the accelerator, so you can practically drive with one foot. It's also arguably safer, because deceleration starts immediately with no lag from moving your foot to the brake pedal.

Re:Braking (0, Flamebait)

cawpin (875453) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944698)

Electric cars gain energy by braking without friction.

No they don't. They gain energy from being plugged in. Using "usually wasted energy" is not GAINING energy. It's simply not wasting it.

Re:Braking (2, Interesting)

Dun Malg (230075) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944988)

recovering a loss qualifies as a gain. It is, in fact, regaining.

Re:Braking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944864)

I actually dislike that idea - I often coast rather than brake in a conventional car and wouldn't like the dichotomy of accelerate/brake rather than accelerate/coast/brake.

Re:Braking (1)

awall222 (1276148) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947552)

Why was this voted down? Do people not ever just coast? What if you're approaching a stop light that's red, for example? If you're not too close to it, it makes sense to let off of the accelerator early in the hopes that it turns green before you have to use the brakes.

Re:Braking (1)

vlm (69642) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945032)

That's why the friction brakes on my Tesla still squeak; because the regenerative deceleration is enough 98% of the time, and I rarely need to use the friction brakes.

I think his point is if you actively burned battery power you could probably eliminate that last 2%, making for an even lighter, faster, higher performance car. I've got years of experience driving a hybrid with regen braking, and it is not nearly powerful enough to trigger the anti-lock brakes. Perhaps a Tesla can regen brake hard enough to feel it in your eyeballs, don't know, would be fun to find out...

Re:Braking (4, Interesting)

compro01 (777531) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944680)

What do you mean sacrifice power? The prius' regenerative braking already has this kind of effect. It doesn't completely eliminate pad wear, but it fantastically extends the life of the pads. There are ones out there with over 100k miles still using the factory pads.

Re:Braking (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945452)

I mean don't (or hardly use) brakes at all. Have a simple brake which can stop you in an emergency and keep you parked. Use the traction motor to bring the car to a stop.

Re:Braking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29945926)

Ala plug braking. Actually, in the forklift industry, the electric vehicles either use plug braking, or regenerative braking which has the added benefit of the plugging effect.

Re:Braking (2, Informative)

dtmos (447842) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944824)

If I understand you correctly, the Prius has done this for a decade. One of my Priuses is at well over 100,000 miles, and still has its original brake pads. The only time the Prius' friction braking system is activated is during very slow speed stops (when there's not enough counter EMF from the generator to get significant regenerative braking), and during emergency stops (when maximum deceleration is requested by the driver). The rest of the time the car uses regenerative braking.

What do you mean by sacrificing power? Regenerative braking returns some of the vehicle's kinetic energy to the battery, making the car more efficient.

Re:Braking (1)

vlm (69642) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945104)

The only time the Prius' friction braking system is activated

When the car is completely quiet (no ventilation, no screaming kids, no music) I can hear them activate, if I'm actively listening for it an paying attention. Not even a sound so much as a change in road feel as the friction kicks in. Now the anti-lock, that is a different issue and its impressively loud.

What do you mean by sacrificing power? Regenerative braking returns some of the vehicle's kinetic energy to the battery, making the car more efficient.

Think slamming it in reverse at full throttle instantaneously, up to and including breaking the tires loose and smoking them. With current technology (electric "current" get it?) that would probably roast the controller and the motor.

Re:Braking (1)

dtmos (447842) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945210)

When the car is completely quiet (no ventilation, no screaming kids, no music) I can hear them activate, if I'm actively listening for it an paying attention.

Exactly right.

Think slamming it in reverse at full throttle instantaneously, up to and including breaking the tires loose and smoking them. With current technology (electric "current" get it?) that would probably roast the controller and the motor.

?? I don't understand your point. What does slamming it in reverse at full throttle have to do with regenerative braking? The energy flow in regenerative braking is away from the wheels, not into them. It's not putting the car into reverse.

Re:Braking (2, Interesting)

PPH (736903) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946928)

Think slamming it in reverse at full throttle instantaneously, up to and including breaking the tires loose and smoking them. With current technology (electric "current" get it?) that would probably roast the controller and the motor.

Current regenerative braking systems are far more advanced than this.

Today's electric cars use AC induction motors driven by variable frequency inverters. Throttling the motor from acceleration to deceleration is done by varying the motor's drive frequency from slightly higher then the motor's speed (positive slip) to slightly lower (negative slip). This speed/frequency difference can be controlled very precisely, thereby controlling the amount of torque and power into or out of the motor. So, like acceleration, braking and regeneration can be easily modulated. Nothing gets 'slammed' in either direction.

Re:Braking (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945412)

What do you mean by sacrificing power?

I mean that instead of using the brakes at very low speeds where regenerative braking doesn't work it will just run the traction motor backwards. You lose power that way but you lose complexity as well, and save on maintenance. I can imagine cheap cars being totally fly by wire with more electrical and electronic components. Maybe shock absorbers will be electric. Steering may be totally fly by wire. At most they may have a one shot last ditch friction brake.

Re:Braking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944350)

Breakin' [wikipedia.org] ?

Re:Braking (2, Interesting)

shway (1614667) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945016)

The friction brakes on my Tesla still squeak after 12,000 miles of driving.

I find the brakes on my Tesla Roadster also squeak - mostly due to non-use. The brake dust gathers on the rotor and doesn't get wiped away since I mostly use regen to slow the car. This causes the brakes to squeak when I do try and use them. When this happens, I can make the squeak go away by braking hard once to remove the brake dust. I find an empty residential street and bring the car up to 15 or 20 miles per hour, and then stomp hard on the brakes to come to a complete stop. No more squeak for another 1000 miles.

TomTom (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944176)

TomTom have being collecting this data for ages, to produce their IQ Routes:

    http://www.tomtom.com/page/iq-routes

Maybe they would cooperate with CMU - did they ask ?

Anonymized Travel Data (2, Insightful)

Umuri (897961) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944214)

Ok, so maybe someone can help me out here, but how exactly do you anonymize travel data?

I mean sure, psuedo anonymized could be fairly easily done, just take the raw data, match with topographical data, and output the combined result devoid of geographic representations.
But even that wouldn't be anonymized to anyone who's looking for info on a specific area, since the data would all be similar and it wouldn't be hard to detect a route that goes through a given set of terrain, especially if the start or stop points (someone's house/parking garage) is known.

So someone who's more in-the-know with anonymizing data sets of this or similar nature able to shed some light on this?

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944346)

Why do they need GPS data at all? Unless they're planning to take control of the car away from the driver, it seems to me that regenerative braking can kick in when the driver pushes on the brake pedal, and stop when the driver lets go of it.

If they are taking control of the car based on GPS data, what happens when their maps are inaccurate -- as they are invariably bound to be?

By the way, the round trip goal of only 20 to 30 miles on a charge sucks. I drive a small, fuel-efficient, car, but if it had only that range, I'd be driving something else.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944370)

if you randomly shifted the set of lat/long, and did a 'heading' rotation transformation it would be a real pain to work back to the original data in most cases (unique hills, odd turns etc could allow some path back to original path).

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944454)

I think they answer this on their site: http://chargecar.org/privacy [chargecar.org]

Two passages jump out:

"To further ensure your privacy, the first and last tenth of a mile of every commute is automatically removed before it is saved to our servers, and no data from those omitted portions is retained."

and

"ChargeCar will also not disclose your position data to anyone and it will be used strictly for research purposes. Search capabilities are only as low as the city level. The only information that ChargeCar will share are velocities and altitudes over time, separated from the positional data you submit. "

Now, it isn't clear that they won't keep the positional data after they extract the velocities/altitudes, but they say they won't share it.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (2)

memoriesofgreen (784598) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944932)

I would still be wary of having a GPS log my position and speed over time. It takes one traffic officer to realise the proof of speeding infractions is stored on ones own nice phone.

I would like to know if the data on ones own device could be used to be convicted of speeding. Until I get the assurances then I would be careful with having the tracking turned on.

However I really like the approach to data collection. I am going to try to help.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946584)

You are being paranoid for no reason! Cops aren't going to look at your phone GPS to convict you, especially when they can just plant weed in your buttcrack and throw you in jail.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (1)

mce (509) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947588)

Just deleting start and end of each trip is not good enough. Especially not if they just delete .1 of a mile at each end. Doing that still allows someone with sufficient access to the data to combine "likely trip combinations" and derive hidden information. To do it properly they'd need to cut all trips into anonymous pieces at fixed way points such that an onlooker cannot know whether any given car that came from A-Ville went on to B-Village or C-City. The level of granularity at which this needs to be done, would - amongst others - depend on the expected average trip length in the database.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944476)

You don't really need details of left and right to analyze driving style (so the data can be simplified down to velocity and change in elevation).

Over a short commute the details of the hills are probably important, but for a longer commute, I doubt they matter much (and the same thinking likely applies to road choice and whatnot).

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944484)

*remove the end points of the journey and use the data between the end points.
*separate the movement data from other data; they don't need to connect a car to its data as it probably isn't needed to determine general commuter habits. If they somehow need to connect a car to its journey they can generalize to its model or assign a randomised alphanumerical tag to it instead of someone's name etc..

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (3, Insightful)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944674)

Ok, so maybe someone can help me out here, but how exactly do you anonymize travel data?

You have a table of GPS tracks. And you have a table of cars. And the two tables have no columns in-common that could be used to join the data.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (2, Informative)

Michael Woodhams (112247) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945206)

And here we see a completely anonymous GPS track starting at 47 Washington Ave, Charleston, California*, stopping for 30 minutes just outside "Bobbie's Big Bargain Bisexual Brothel" before continuing to parking space 15 at the Word Of God radio station. We have no idea what car it was.

(P.S. others have pointed that this scenario will not happen, because they delete the first and last .1 mile of the trip.)
* All parts of this address except 'California' were made up by me. Any resemblance to the address of an actual patron of Bobbie's Big Bargain Bisexual Brothel are purely coincidental.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29947606)

Or it could be as simple as a log of inertia. +5 newtons here, -3 there, and a dash of burning clutch.

Re:Anonymized Travel Data (3, Interesting)

vlm (69642) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944746)

So someone who's more in-the-know with anonymizing data sets of this or similar nature able to shed some light on this?

Much like social networking sites, the best solution is not to upload anything you don't want your name on. Since they're trying to build a "commuter car" as opposed to a "adult video shopping excursion car", the best solution is to only upload the drive to and from work, unless your work happens to be "professional adult video shopper".

Good in theory (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944302)

In theory, this is a good idea, but I do not think it will work that way. I have yet to see a specialized, 35+ mph, 10+ year lifespan (important for resale value) car that will cost under $10K. A basic, 30+ mpg car can be had under $12K. A basic plug in hybrid (Prius?) will likely go under $25K (without extra batteries), and get pretty good mileage as is.

I expect in the near future, there will be plug in hybrids with a variable amount of batteries. People will go to a car dealer and buy (or rent) the plug in hybrid without range extending batteries. They will drive around and see how many kwh they use up. Based on that, the buyer will buy the amount of kwh in batteries they feel they need. If they drive long distances, the buyer may skip the the plug in hybrid altogether and buy a diesel instead.

I think the average public's intelligence is being underestimated when it comes for the potential to save money.

Re:Good in theory (1)

vlm (69642) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945170)

First, lets see any domestic car manufacturer make any car of any technology with those specs:

35+ mph ... 10+ year lifespan ... under $10K.

I mean before going all star trek with complicated stuff, can they even build a "model T" or VW-bug-alike that meets just those basic specs, even if it only seats one and gets two miles per gallon, etc, before trying to install new high tech with amazing performance (and probably, amazing costs)?

the buyer will buy the amount of kwh in batteries they feel they need

I do agree that "marketing-miles" will become the new "cupholder count" in car advertising. Perhaps, instead of advertising SUVs tearing thru muddy parks (which the typical SUV owner will never do) they'll show an e-vehicle cruising hundreds of (marketing) miles without a charge (which the typical owner will never do)

Wow, look at that: (3, Insightful)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944308)

"It seems that 99.9% of drivers drive the speed limit, and engine-break to lights."
Do they really expect anyone who isn't already driving a hybrid or electric and/or driving super-energy conscious will be interested in helping a project like this and send in Data? How people really commute: They drive 10-20 miles over the speed limit on highways, and 5-15 miles over the speed limit on city streets. They speed up to get in front of a slower (but still over the speed limit) car, just in time to brake hard for the stoplight. The data they collect will say regenerative braking is pointless, but the common-knowledge data will say that regenerative braking is the bee's knees.

Re:Wow, look at that: (0, Troll)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944992)

    I love the speed limit argument, let me play too! :)

    Speed limits, and the optimal speed varies by vehicle!!!!!

    Every engine has an optimal speed. That's generally 1700 to 2200 RPM.

    In my car, optimal cruise RPM is 2200 RPM.

    I tested at identical RPM (2k RPM) in 5th and 6th gear. 6th gear was more fuel efficient.
    I tested at identical speeds (The speed limit, 70mph), in 5th and 6th gear. 6th gear was more fuel efficient.

    The remainder of the testing results were in 6th gear.

    At 70mph, I got 24mpg.
    At 75mph, I got 25mpg.
    At 80mph, I got 26mpg.

    86mph is 2,000RPM.

    Optimal cruise would be approx 95mph.

    Many 4 cyl cars are turning something like 4000 RPM at 70mph. These cars are obvious candidates to slow down a little (or a lot!)

    I drive my car for the best fuel economy. I coast to stops. I accelerate in the best way for my car. I don't like spending any more than I have to in gas. I cruise at the best speeds I can for my car. That still puts me as what you consider to be bad.

    I've driven cars that are built to cruise at 55mph. In those, I cruise at 55mph, and annoy other people. Sorry, I'm driving for the vehicle. I don't mind driving the faster car though, as I do get from Point A to Point B faster. I would appreciate if there were modifications to the speed limits, to allow for variations in vehicles. Maybe a typing system, where performance cars that do operate better at high speed, are allowed to go faster. That would also restrict vehicles that should operate slower, to better speeds for them.

    Actually, I'd just be happy if people knew what lanes to drive in. Slow to the right, fast to the left. If someone comes up behind you, yield to them. And god damn it, stop making right turns from the left lane!

   

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

goofy183 (451746) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945440)

Complete off-topic for the original story but this is exactly why I'm hoping more cars get CVTs as the technology matures. I have a Subaru Legacy with a CVT and it is great for MPG. The car can always run the engine at the optimal RPM for the combination of speed, load and acceleration demand. When cruising on the highway its fun to watch the RPMs vary slightly to compensate for hills but having the speed never budge. I think in this case the Legacy with the CVT gets ~5mpg better than the same care with an automatic or manual transmission.

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

w0mprat (1317953) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945574)

The whole point of a overdrive 5th or 6th gear was that it was a highway cruising gear for optimal economy, because the old 'top gear' 4th in cars was the one where maximum horsepower arrived at top speed. Yet many small cars these days scream at 3500rpm or more on the open road, because the manurfacturers seem to have sacrificed economy for close ratios, and once again, peak hp at terminal speed. That despite no necessity for close ratios with a proper flexible free revving engine, even in a non-sports focused car.

Your results are interesting. Every car is different.

In overdrive I get: 2250rpm @ 62mph (100kph) 8.4l/100km (28mpg) 1100rpm @ 30mph (50kph) 5.5l/100km (43mpg)

A friend with the same car ditched his dead auto for a 6-speed and a final drive from a larger engined version of same car. Result was 1850rpm at 60mph, 38mpg and it still accelerated well in this gear. That's a whopping increase for a average V6 sedan.

So it would seem there are many cars that could merely do with lower final gearing or a lower highest ratio... to have the same impact as switching to a hybrid or diesel drive train .

This would of course ruin sales of hybrids.

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

Dare nMc (468959) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946524)

Problem is efficiency is a combination of engine speed, and intake restriction (assuming we run at stochkometry). Since your gas pedal is actually just decreasing the intake restriction. as you push the gas, at every rpm the more efficient your engine will run (assuming manual trans*, with EFI, no boost.) Generally with peak efficiency at same rpm as peak torque, wide open. So ideally you need a small enough engine that it can run wide open at this RPM the majority of the time, but since this is usually at 70-80% of peak HP, you would have a fairly un-responsive car at that speed.
they usually get the gearing right for the best economy possible for the engine, while going 60 MPH. The problem is the engine isn't the correct size for the cars drag at that speed, so things like multiple engines (hybrids) variable displacement engines, etc has more potential for savings. (* manual because in a auto efficiency of the trans decreases with load as well, and anything beyond half throttle only changes the shift point of the trans.)

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946696)

Actually it wouldn't ruin the sales of hybrids. You missed the entire point of hybrids in that they are HYBRID. In other words, they excel at low stop and go speeds, and can also go fast in the same manner that a normal car would. That's because they use the same type of engines! Switching gear ratios will NOT have the same impact as hybrids at all!

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946672)

You are totally missing the point of speed limits first of all. They aren't there for any reason having to do with fuel economy or "best cruise speed" for your car. It's all about the upper limit of safe speed in average cars during marginal weather. Slower speeds are ALWAYS better for all cars in terms of safety! I also highly doubt your claim of 95mph being the most efficient in mpg. The wind drag is exponentially increasing as your speed increases, so you should be getting worse and worse mpg as you go faster and faster. In other words, if the speed is constant and your not braking and accelerating over and over again like in a city, you'll get the best mpg the slower you go. Your idea of different speed limits on different types of cars is also a bit far fetched. Everyone going the same speed is much easier to manage.

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

angelbunny (1501333) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947540)

"It's all about the upper limit of safe speed in average cars during marginal weather. Slower speeds are ALWAYS better for all cars in terms of safety!"
wrong and wrong.

1st) Speed limits are based on engineering surveys. The eng surveys are based on the average flow of traffic (usually 80th percentile). For example, if the average flow of traffic is 75 mph then the speed limit will be 65mph. This is why in so cal freeway speed limits are 70mph and in nor cal they are 65mph. People in so cal drive faster. Speed limits are meant not to slow down the faster drivers but to speed up the slower drivers. The more everyone drives the same relative speed the safer everyone is. Also, states get paid a good chunk of cash from the federal gov based on the states max speed limit. Every 5mph over 55mph the fed cuts out a chunk of cash for that state. This is why states have a max speed limit overall and not all roads are based on the average flow of traffic. If the average flow of traffic exceeds the max state speed then instead of enforcing that speed limit the state intentionally avoids enforcing to allow people to drive freely and safely. Political BS if you ask me.

2) Speed safety does not have to do with the speed the vehicle is moving but the difference in speed based in the impact. This is why the autobahn is safer than american freeways. If you're going 100mph and someone else is going 99mph and you guys bump then it is a 1mph bump. If one person is going 65 and another is going 64 then it is still 1mph and exactly as dangerous. This is why freeways have dividers and walls to keep vehicles from hitting anything that is at a complete stand still. This is also why freeways have minimum speed limits. It is quite safe to go 150mph in a car as long as conditions permit aka weather conditions, road conditions, and of course the average flow of traffic. It is safer to go with the flow of traffic than the speed limit especially when the flow of traffic exceeds the speed limit that much more.

Re:Wow, look at that: (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29947494)

Your data is garbage.

The wind resistance penalty from 70 to 90 mph is horrendous. You would be lucky to get 15 MPG at 90 MPG.

Re:Wow, look at that: (1)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945750)

The data they collect will say regenerative braking is pointless, but the common-knowledge data will say that regenerative braking is the bee's knees.

So data that runs counter to 'what everyone knows' is pointless? It seems the rejection of science that so many characterize as being typical of America has at last come to Slashdot.

So retrofitting batteries... (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944422)

and the whole electric drive-train, is going to be cheaper than paying for gas?

I'm having a hard time believing that, but I suppose it depends how much you drive.

Hell, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a new electric than to retrofit it?

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29944782)

http://e-volks.com/ already sells kits for this. Can you buy a new electric car for 4-6 k?
If so, please let me know where, I'll be happy to buy them out and resell them for 5-10x as much.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945226)

That isn't counting labour.

If you're going for an economical model, they still make Yugos. Last time I was out there, they were $7k out the door, tax paid. I'm sure you could talk them into making an electric for a premium ;)

I don't think 99.5% of americans *want* to drive an economical box though, whether they say they do or not.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

vlm (69642) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944908)

and the whole electric drive-train, is going to be cheaper than paying for gas?

Hell, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a new electric than to retrofit it?

I know you're just trolling, but its an interesting topic anyway.

Most conversion stories seem to begin with "remove burned out IC engine and leaky transmission". You'd be surprised how expensive a new gas drivetrain plus installation costs compared to the new parts for a small electric drivetrain. So, drivetrain is usually mentally justified as a repair cost.

Then justify the purchase price of just enough small lead acid deep cycle batteries to just barely work, because you've got leftover money from the drivetrain, and you'll never pay for gas again, even if it barely makes it to the grocery store and back. So, first tiny battery set is usually mentally justified as an investment with a great ROI (not buying gas).

Once it works pretty well, justify more paralleled batteries for longer range, because its a luxury and you're worth it and just for the pure heck of it, etc etc. Just like you don't "need" leather seats but you wasted the money on them anyway, you can waste the money on 100 miles worth of battery that you don't need if you really want it. Plus you can one-up the guy you saw on the internet and who cares what it costs, you're going to out do his conversion no matter the expense. So, second set of batteries is usually mentally justified as a pure luxury.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945182)

I wasn't trolling, I'm seriously curious.

I go through $80 of gas every second week; so roughly $2k a year.
So going by the other reply, of $6k in parts, that's 3 years just for parts - not counting the cost of charging the batteries, or the labour to install the kit. Throw that all in, and I'm thinking we're looking at 6+ years to break even, vs. just buying gas.

I just don't see electric as feasible, especially in my (-40 for several months) climate. Diesel or booze are the only feasible options I see for the near future, until we stumble on some much more efficient and *cheap* batteries.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

CohibaVancouver (864662) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945580)

I'm thinking we're looking at 6+ years to break even

There's a few electric conversion cars in my neighbourhood - A minivan, an old Ford Fiesta etc. For most of the guys who have done this it's not for the cost savings (although here in BC with cheap hydro there is certainly a piece of that) - It's largely a hobby for them, in the same way some people like playing around with computers, messing about with toy trains or 'tuning' their Hondas. To be honest, this sort of project appeals to me as a hobby project, were it not for the fact I have a toddler and huge "to-do" list associated with our old house...

The other thing to consider is a lot of people keep an older car and only throw it away when the tranny needs rebuilding or it starts burning oil. When your options are 1) Spend $3K on repairs, 2) Throw in a new electric drivetrain or 3) Spend 6K on a new used car, well the electric conversion kit doesn't seem like such a bad deal.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

Rei (128717) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945730)

What's wrong with six years to break even, with the money spent raising the value of the vehicle?

If you were given an low-risk option for your 401k wherein you'd earn the amount of money you put into the fund in only six years, and continue earning from there on out, wouldn't you leap at the opportunity? That's a 12% rate of return.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946040)

I assume at the end of the six years the batteries will be dead, and the car has another 6 years of depreciation, and rust, general wear, etc, on it.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

Rei (128717) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947566)

Even if that were the case, you lost nothing. But if it's a li-ion conversion, you'll get more than 6 years out of it. And by going electric, you'll skip most other vehicle maintenance -- no more oil changes, no transmission failures, no belts, pulleys, blah blah blah... EV drivetrains have a tenth as many moving parts.

Re:So retrofitting batteries... (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947774)

One problem with the idea is that used cars aren't worth shit by the time the drivetrain is worn out.

Another is shoehorning a replacement drivetrain and battery pack into a car not designed for it in a crashworthy manner. There is no reason to put a "new" drivetrain in most used cars, typical practice is to install a used drivetrain out of a wreck.

As a mechanic, I'd have to say the project will be fun with someone else paying for it but is a waste of time.

Slightly related, open source electric cars (2, Interesting)

Aggrajag (716041) | more than 4 years ago | (#29944640)

I've been following the progress of a Finnish electric car project:

Quote:
"we are offering the open source blueprints of the electric conversion kits globally and leave the manufacturing of the kits to the markets"

http://www.sahkoautot.fi/eng [sahkoautot.fi]
http://ecars-now.wikidot.com/ [wikidot.com]

Requires Cheap Batteries First (4, Interesting)

KalvinB (205500) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945266)

According to http://www.sahkoautot.fi/eng:faq#toc3 [sahkoautot.fi] , lithium batteries will last for about 125,000 miles. What nobody wants to talk about is the price of replacing them. They just want to talk about how "cheap" it is to charge them. Articles just assume that by the time you need to replace them, surely cheaper and better batteries will be available. I've heard estimates of about $10,000 for replacing the batteries in an electric vehicle. So that's 8 cents per mile times 30 miles per gallon that conventional engines get for the same size vehicle which is $2.40. So pretty much zero savings.

My Versa gets around 36mpg which bumps the cost per gallon of the electric up to $2.88 which is about 30 cents more than fuel in my area. And that doesn't include the cost of electricity needed to charge the batteries.

Electric cars simply cannot beat the economics of a small commuter car. Until they get the price and performance of rechargeable batteries well below the cost of regular gas there's no financial incentive to buy an electric car. They need to do far better than 8 cents per mile for electric. I'm not going to spend $20,000+ on a car just to have electric when I'm saving no money per mile and could have spent $10,000 less on standard car AND saved money on getting where I want to go.

Re:Requires Cheap Batteries First (1)

ickleberry (864871) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945822)

Electric cars simply cannot beat the economics of a small commuter car. Until they get the price and performance of rechargeable batteries well below the cost of regular gas there's no financial incentive to buy an electric car.

They just need to stop using Lithium-based batteries. Lithium-ion is a horrible battery technology, manufacturers like Apple love it because they can use it to force the upgrade cycle and planned obsolescence.

The only way they should use lithium ion is for small-scale projects where before recycling 18650's and ipod batteries they shove them into car battery sized modules for a few years to make sure they are well and truly worn out before melting them down.

Ultracapacitors FTW. once they make them with an energy density comparable to lead acid they will be good enough for small commuter cars. until then lots and lots of scrap batteries from used consumer electronics is the way forward, but that doesn't scale

Re:Requires Cheap Batteries First (1)

BlueParrot (965239) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947710)

I've heard estimates of about $10,000 for replacing the batteries in an electric vehicle. So that's 8 cents per mile times 30 miles per gallon that conventional engines get for the same size vehicle which is $2.40. So pretty much zero savings.

So what you are saying is that everybody in Europe, where gasoline prices are multiple times what they are in the US, are likely to see huge savings ?

Second question, how long do you think gasoline prices in the US will stay where they are ?

Re:Requires Cheap Batteries First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29947808)

It depends on the driver. For my own driving habits, those batteries would last me 20 years. If I woke up tomorrow to find my engine and transmission had vanished, and I had to choose between buying a cheap new gas car or converting my surviving car body to electric, not only would the conversion be cheaper than a new car, I'd have the immediate fuel cost savings on top of that. The batteries would have basically paid for themselves before I drove the first mile. And IMO, the electric car may actually last that long without serious work, whereas every gas car I've seen last that long has had at least a few thousand dollars of extra repairs to the moving parts.

In fact, I will probably take that approach eventually, when my current car gets old, because I do like the body. When the time comes, assuming it's due to mechanical failure rather than a fluke crash, I'll have to choose between the new cars available or converting the old one. Since it would make economic sense if that scenario were to happen right now, it'll likely still make sense some years in the future when the electric parts are better/cheaper and the gas prices will have only gone higher.

The part of the story you're missing... (1)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945704)

If you've got a halfway modern Garmin GPS, you have already been collecting the very data that this project is working for. What? Your GPS is logging you without permission? Yes. (Garmin probably got some legalese somewhere to cover their tracks.)

The Garmin GPS has a facility to show/hide your 'trail' (which is based on a time/location log of your travel). I believe it also has an option to reset that log. (Or, at the very least, you could USB mount its storage device and clean out the log file.) But even if you erase the log file, it will automatically repopulate your travel log, with or without your permission. There is no built-in option to prevent this behavior.

In short, a Garmin GPS *is* a GPS tracking device that your willingly put inside of your own vehicle, and is ready to report your travel history at any time.

I have personally verified this information with Garmin's technical support. You cannot disable GPS logging. Could be a plus for this project, though.

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (2, Informative)

Jon Abbott (723) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945804)

I would suspect that this varies depending on the model. My Garmin 60csx has the ability to disable track logging. There have been numerous times where I've wanted it to record the track, but it had turned off track logging... Sounds like a good time to say "YMMV". :^)

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29945834)

Perhaps that is only for certain product lines, like the Nuvi?

I have a "halfway modern Garmin GPS", the GPSmap60csx, and it only records the track log if set to record. There are several options in the firmware for how to record the log file as well.

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (1)

TBoon (1381891) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945872)

If you've got a halfway modern Garmin GPS, you have already been collecting the very data that this project is working for.

How many people drive with the GPS on their daily commute? And how do you convert the hidden garmin log to some useful format? (I've tried on mine, but so far no luck...)

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946390)

You are wrong about the Garmin OS. It does allow you to turn off tracking. In fact it allows you more than one way to turn it off. Thus your post is nothing more than a huge stinking pile of poop.

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (1)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947524)

Support from Garmin support:

--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Product.Support@garmin.com wrote:

From: Product.Support@garmin.com
Subject: Re: Disable tracklog RECORDING feature in Garmin Nuvi 255w (KMMxxxxx)

Dear [AtariDatacenter],

Thank you for contacting Garmin International. Unfortunately you will have to clear the trip log manually.

With Best Regards,

Jonathan P
Product Support Specialist
2nd shift-OCC
Garmin International
913-397-8200
800-800-1020
913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Jonathan P
www.garmin.com

Original Message Follows:

Form Message
Knowledge Job Ticket:
{XXXX-XXX-XXX-XXXX-000000000000}
Knowledge Session Log URL:
undefined?session={XXXXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-000000000000}&forward=sesslog
KnowledgeBase:
garmin
Subject:
Disable tracklog RECORDING feature in Garmin Nuvi 255w
Message Body:
I see that there is a feature to hide the tracklog. There is also a feature to erase the current tracklog. If someone is concerned about privacy, is there a feature on the Garmin Nuvi 255w to make it simply not write the tracklog information out, so it doesn't need to be regularly erased?
MarketName:
On the Road
ProductGroup:
nuvi Series
Product:
nuvi 255W
Type:
General Question
Full Name:
[Atari Datacenter]
First Name:
[Atari]
Last Name:
[Datacenter]
Email Address:
[my email]
Country:
United States

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946508)

So turn off the GPS unless you actually need it. Do you seriously need a moving map GPS to find your way to work every day?

I doubt Garmin's the only GPS manufacturer that enables track logging by default. And you can certainly turn it off on some models (yes, Garmin makes more than one model of GPS, and they aren't all the same). Sucks that whatever one you have won't let you turn it off, but that doesn't mean they're all that way.

Re:The part of the story you're missing... (1)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 4 years ago | (#29947498)

Wow. Lots of poo-pooing. But partially my fault.

A clarification (since there are so many Garmin models): the Garmin Nuvi line is what I had in mind. That would be the line that is aimed at automotive market (which related to the topic). Sample models would be 260, 265, 780, 255, 200, 205, and all the widescreen variants.

There is no way to turn of tracking on these standard automobile models. Someone mentioned the 60csx, which is a handheld unit and not aimed at the automotive market. Same with the GPSmap60csx.

Someone else asked how you convert the hidden garmin log to a useful format. It is an XML file called "Garmin/GPX/current.gpx". An very small sample of (personal) data in my unit. Yes, Google Earth can import the whole file and show you all the recorded trip information.

BTW, if I was a law enforcement officer, or a lawyer, a Garmin Nuvi would be a prime target for a search or subpoena.

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Their biggest bang (1)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 4 years ago | (#29945882)

If they want to improve regen braking, their BIGGEST payload will come from having 4 separate engines at each wheel with no drivetrain. Wheel motors

Those have demonstrated much more energy recovery from regen braking.

Re:Their biggest bang (1)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946176)

Wheel motors aren't the greatest because it means there's a lot more unsprung weight (not on your suspension). Also, while 4 small engines may or may not be as efficient overall as one big engine and some transmission, they're almost certainly more expensive.

alternate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946806)

Wheel motors though could lead to a lot easier conversion project. Trade offs. Or making hybrids out of conventional vehicles, without removing a single thing from them, just add the electric wheels on which ever end isn't already being driven, then just a few batteries (or ultracaps) wherever you could fit them out of the way, not a lot of them. Even if the electric was only used for the start and stop cycle of the commute, to regain some energy from regen braking, then quickly expend it, just to get going from stops, etc, that could help a lot.

Car pool lane? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29946152)

They want real commuters' data. Here in California, EVs can use the carpool lane, which makes these data totally irrelevant. Am I missing anything?

A little real influence? (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#29946576)

So if enough people upload a commute including hard braking, hard acceration, high-G turns, and sections well over 100mph, will that cause them to design an electric car with some serious power?

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