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EU Telecom Deal Finished — No Three Strikes

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the infield-fly-rule-still-applies-though dept.

The Internet 109

a_n_d_e_r_s writes "The battle was hard, but the final text of the agreement ensures that people in the EU are not disconnected from the Internet without a chance to get a fair and impartial hearing beforehand. The important part is: 'Accordingly, these measures may only be taken with due respect for the principle of presumption of innocence and the right to privacy. A prior fair and impartial procedure shall be guaranteed, including the right to be heard of the person or persons concerned, subject to the need for appropriate conditions and procedural arrangements in duly substantiated cases of urgency in conformity with European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. The right to an effective and timely judicial review shall be guaranteed.' This means that if someone is accused of copyright infringement, they can't just be disconnected from Internet. It lets the accused get a chance to disagree and take it to court first. The urgency clause means that a computer can be disconnected if it is part of an ongoing DDoS attack. Next, this has to be implemented into the EU nations' own laws, so the final ruling on how this will be implemented is not out yet. But, overall, it looks like a great success in stopping informal three-strikes disconnections."

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109 comments

No great victory (3, Interesting)

genjix (959457) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996478)

I thought the whole idea was internet being an inalienable right that no one can take away from you?

How's this the major victory?

Re:No great victory (3, Interesting)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997748)

Three Strikes without due-process was one of the major faults of this bill, tho' comparatively still a minor "smokescreen" to the real issue. Three Strikes was leaked from the secret negotiations, to attract the bulk of protest and citizen lobbying while the real doozy was held in reserve; "global DMCA".

What's the status of those provisions? I wouldn't celebrate too soon.

Re:No great victory (1)

Therefore I am (1284262) | more than 4 years ago | (#30005168)

Global DMCA should be just enough to ensure that the entire globe sits on their collective wallets until the media companies expire. Three months should just about do it.

Re:No great victory (2, Insightful)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998424)

I thought the whole idea was internet being an inalienable right that no one can take away from you?

So is freedom, but the government can still imprison you if you violate the law. The problem wasn't that you could have your Internet connection cut, but that it could happen completely outside the regular justice system and contrary to the principles of the justice system, especially presumption of innocence.

Impartial? (4, Insightful)

DinDaddy (1168147) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996506)

Who decides what "a prior fair and impartial procedure" is?

Re:Impartial? (2, Insightful)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996564)

Hopefully, a Judge.

Re:Impartial? (2, Interesting)

ZekoMal (1404259) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996584)

And hopefully not a judge that is part of a copyright lobby.

Re:Impartial? (3, Interesting)

lordmetroid (708723) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996944)

Good luck finding one of those, as has been shown by the pirate bay case, there are none.

Re:Impartial? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30002316)

The much bigger problem is finding a judge that actually uses the internet and (which is a lot harder) knows how it works and what the case is about instead of just listening to PR-talk and deciding in favor of it.
Captcha: precept. How suprisingly appropriate.

Re:Impartial? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996654)

All judges are Catholics, and Catholics are so crooked and twisted that they need to be screwed into their pants every morning.

Re:Impartial? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29997082)

...and all religious people are so crooked and twisted that they need to be screwed into their pants every morning.

Fixed it.

Re:Impartial? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996596)

Who decides what "a prior fair and impartial procedure" is?

If you keep disagreeing with the judges: The European Court For Human Rights in Strasbourg.

Re:Impartial? (4, Informative)

MoellerPlesset2 (1419023) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996604)

Who decides what "a prior fair and impartial procedure" is?

- The member states, when they pass the laws intended to implement this.
- The member states courts, when ruling and setting precedent on those laws.
- The European Court, should someone challenge whether the implementation is within the bounds of the directive.

Re:Impartial? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996624)

Who decides what "a prior fair and impartial procedure" is?

Affirmative action, yo.

Telecom Deal Still Up for Grabs-3Strikes Possible! (2, Informative)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996658)

Reading up a bit, I stand corrected... its a pretty crappy deal. From Europe only goes half-way in protecting Internet rights [laquadrature.net]

"However, the text only speaks of "a prior fair and impartial procedure" instead of a prior ruling by the judicial authorities, guaranteed by the original "amendment 138", and contains loopholes and ambiguities. The invalidation of freedom-killer measures such as "three strikes policies" will now depend on interpretation by the European Court of Justice and national courts. Moreover, the text only relates to measures taken by Member States and thereby fails to bar telecom operators and entertainment industries from knocking down the founding principle of Net neutrality."

Re:Telecom Deal Still Up for Grabs-3Strikes Possib (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000468)

In other words you're presumed guilty, and your internet cutoff immediately, without trial.

Why the hell do we Americans, Europeans, and Australians put-up with this bullshit? Why aren't we rising-up and terminating with extreme prejudice our governmental employees?

Re:Telecom Deal Still Up for Grabs-3Strikes Possib (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30001896)

Why aren't we rising-up and terminating with extreme prejudice our governmental employees?

We are. Haven't you seen the Pirate Parties gaining wind?

Re:Telecom Deal Still Up for Grabs-3Strikes Possib (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30004466)

Alas, the member state in the UK is listening to industry slave Voldemort, er, Mandelson on this one. Of course he'll also be out of a job in a few months, so it's not all bad.

Re:Telecom Deal Still Up for Grabs-3Strikes Possib (1)

nickco3 (220146) | more than 4 years ago | (#30004588)

I have every confidence in the entertainment industry finding a Tory to continue his efforts.

Re:Impartial? (5, Funny)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996694)

According to my law guidebook "a prior fair and impartial procedure" involves an adversarial legal setup with two legal teams. Each team drains its client's bank account as fast as money transfer technology makes possible and the first client to go bankrupt loses the case.

Re:Impartial? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29999002)

Funny? That was Informative you insensitive clods!

Impartial? READ AGAIN: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30003828)

GROUPAMA was caught in a software PIRACY case of $200m and has made an unofficial affidavit (claiming that it was not guilty) to divert Police investigators from the evidences officially collected one month ago at a different office.

In its affidavit, GROUPAMA argued that bank secrecy entitled it to limit the scope of Police investigations to a building that was not the place where evidences about the infraction were officially collected.

After the Police falsification of criminal records was discovered and denounced by the victim, GROUPAMA managed to have the General Prosecutor of Paris to state that Police was 'right' to remove the criminal file and focus only on the irrelevant information provided by GROUPAMA itself.

As a consequence, FINAMA and GROUPAMA have reported false information to the markets regarding their own accounts (where the fraud describbed below has never been reported).

This unfortunate event is more than likely to compromize the confidence ratings of French (bank and insurance) regulated markets on the proven basis that the numbers cannot be trusted.

It will also make it harder for EU States to pretend that leaving the law in the hands of national authorities is something that can be considered reliable.

All the details, including the General Prosecutor reply, the BEFTI investigation file and the unofficial affidavit cooked by GROUPAMA have been made publicly available:

http://remoteanything.com/archives/groupama.pdf

ACTA (2, Interesting)

codegen (103601) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996550)

Now what happens if ACTA gets signed? According to yesterdays article [slashdot.org] , ACTA may be requiring some form of n-strikes law. Maybe this will prompt the european negotiators to remove the language from ACTA. Naaaaaa, that would be too sensible...

Re:ACTA (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996612)

Now what happens if ACTA gets signed? According to yesterdays article [slashdot.org] , ACTA may be requiring some form of n-strikes law. Maybe this will prompt the european negotiators to remove the language from ACTA. Naaaaaa, that would be too sensible...

From the article,

A prior fair and impartial procedure shall be guaranteed, including the right to be heard of the person or persons concerned, subject to the need for appropriate conditions and procedural arrangements in duly substantiated cases of urgency in conformity with European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. and The right to an effective and timely judicial review shall be guaranteed.

I think this pretty much makes ACTA, as we know it (and you have to keep in mind that no-one around here knows the exact text of the treaty) invalid and impossible to sign if it has the rumored provisions.

Re:the right to... (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997292)

Nah.

It's becoming apparent that copyright industries trump any rights organizations. You have the right to be made fun of in a juicy revue.

Re:ACTA (2, Insightful)

Conchobair (1648793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996816)

Or this might be why they are not pushing harder for the strikes rule. It's coming soon anyways.

Re:ACTA (3, Insightful)

Exception Duck (1524809) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997218)

I don't think ACTA will trump European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom.

Basic premise in the EU is Human Rights>Corporations which is not always the case but hopefully this time.

manipulation? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996590)

What about setting up people to censor them? Disconnecting shouldn't even be an option. Internet access is to integral to ones communication and freedom of speech. And it can punish others who might not have offended (like other users of that computer). Stupid law and a big loss in my book.

Re:manipulation? (4, Insightful)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 4 years ago | (#29999048)

I really wonder how they think to go about cutting off someone's Internet access, too. I access the Internet through various networks, most of them not on my name. Most of these networks are used by multiple people. I am sure the situation is similar for many other people.

This raises two important questions:

1. How does one go about proving that a specific individual committed copyright infringement?

2. How does one cut off that person's Internet access, without cutting off various networks that are used by a lot of people beside that individual?

Of course, they might just disconnect every network that is found to be infringing ... but then they can pretty much just shut down the entire Internet right away. I don't think that's really the intent of this directive, but even if it is, I guarantee you that it's not going to fly.

Re:manipulation? (1)

Nefarious Wheel (628136) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000752)

1. How does one go about proving that a specific individual committed copyright infringement?

That presumes the RIAA/MPAA give a fig about collateral damage. So far the evidence is that they don't, much.

We have to keep hammering back at attempts to short-circuit all attempts to punish people in groups, of course. Convenience on the part of the plaintiff is not an acceptable reason to violate such a universal legal convention, one underpinned by the lessons of WWII.

Re:manipulation? (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#30002008)

What they really mean by "cutting off your Internet access" is "terminating your residential ISP account".

Re:manipulation? (1)

z0mb13e (1492637) | more than 4 years ago | (#30004260)

Surely the provision that the measures taken must be proportional is enough to stop any disconnections?

My residential broadband connection is used by other people as well, so if I am accused of some heinous and socially reprehensible crime such as using P2P (by the way, have 'they' figured out that bit torrent streams don't necessarily equate to copyright infringement?) and my internet connection is cut off or throttled, then that is disproportionate as it affects other people who are innocent of using dubious and encrypted transport streams...

How would 'they' be able to differentiate between users on the private side of the network? I have one public IP address and several internal computers...I don't see how they could identify, accuse and cut off me and my residential connection directly.

If 'they' could then what is to stop another member of my house hold from subscribing to broadband (which would give me access again). Or are they planning on putting a blanket 'don't supply' notice on my address?

If some injunction can be sought against others to prevent me from gaining access via their connection, what happens to my mobile subscription (which includes internet access)? I am able to tether my phone to a pc and access the internet through that.

If the result of 3 accusations results in all of the above, what's to stop me from buying a 'pay as you go' broadband dongle (with cash) and using that? If all of the above was somehow preventable I would have to use open Wifi AP's, which in itself is potentially illegal in the uk, http://www.out-law.com/page-10299 [out-law.com] so I might as well just break the law now, download some tunes illegally and save all of this agro - Sod it, I would rather just use Spotify - it's quicker and less hassle than downloading music.

a "great success?" (5, Insightful)

grahamsaa (1287732) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996606)

In a word, no. I'd rather have a court determine who is or is not able to access the internet than an ISP or a copyright holder, but forced disconnection from the internet shouldn't be an option at all. If record companies or other copyright owners want to punish someone for illegally sharing content, there are civil remedies for that. They can sue for damages (and I mean actual damages, not ridiculously inflated damages).

This is not a great success. Instead, it appears to be the beginning of a failed policy. Let's hope that internet access is eventually considered to be a fundamental human right, because with our growing dependence on technology, it should be.

Re:a "great success?" (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996836)

This is not a great success. Instead, it appears to be the beginning of a failed policy.

If the intention is to assert further unreasonable power over a population that isn't likely to do anything about it, then all policies fitting that description (Internet-related or not) have been a resounding success. They're more successful still when each generation grows up conditioned to it because it's "just the way things are" with little appreciation for how they came to be that way. Then it's so much easier to add just a tiny extra restriction here and there, which doesn't seem so bad at the time, except that anyone who takes a long view would quickly realize that over time these things add up to a tremendous transfer of power away from the people.

It's only a failure if reasonable honest government that truly represents the people was ever the goal.

Interesting.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996608)

The urgency clause means that a computer can be disconnected if it is part of an ongoing DDoS attack.

RIAA Lawyer: But your honour, this person's use of bittorrent is slowing down our tracker but an infinitesimal amount. We need to shut it down.
Judge: No problem. Saves me the trouble of listening to more trials.

But I thought that 3 Strikes had been kept (4, Informative)

Nyrath the nearly wi (517243) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996636)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/05/telecoms_package/ [theregister.co.uk]

A plan by the European Parliament to restrict the power of national governments to disconnect illegal filesharers has been dumped to win agreement on new telecoms competition laws.

Long-running negotiations over the EU Telecoms Package were completed last night when MEPs agreed to drop amendments that would have made internet access a fundamental right.

After months of negotiations, the agreed package now demands only "appropriate, proportionate and necessary" measures can be taken to enforce copyright. There must be a possibility of judicial review for those disconnected, but not automatic court oversight.

Re:But I thought that 3 Strikes had been kept (1)

a_n_d_e_r_s (136412) | more than 4 years ago | (#30003726)

France Hadopi laws - the 3 strikes law - are not conforming to the new legislation from EU so they have to be changed. Citizens can no longer be accused 3 times and see their connection cut. Instead they will, when they are accused, have a chance to be heard in a fair and presumed innocent until otherwise proven hearing where they have the right to be heard.

The provisions will not prevent everyones Internet connection to be cut - but it prevent people from getting it cut without a fair hearing. France have to change their Hadopi law to conform to this new requirements from EU that the Pirate Party helped to enact.

Re:But I thought that 3 Strikes had been kept (2, Informative)

Builder (103701) | more than 4 years ago | (#30003732)

What's been done is that the three strikes part has been removed from the EU directive. However, previously there was language in that directive that would forbid any country from implementing a 3 strikes law on their own (remember, the EU passes some laws, but member countries can still pass their own)

The removal of this text now makes it possible for member countries to implement their own three strikes laws.

Court System Strain (4, Interesting)

davegravy (1019182) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996638)

If they have to have a hearing for each case, won't this seriously bog down the court system?

Will the industry then be limited to going after only the biggest offenders?

Re:Court System Strain (1)

spydabyte (1032538) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996778)

I believe that's the point. Courts are fed up with this. There needs to be a new system for IPR, this is just their way of saying "You deal with it, you caused it".

Re:Court System Strain (2, Insightful)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996848)

If they have to have a hearing for each case, won't this seriously bog down the court system?

Tough tooties. If 90% of your population is criminalized as a result of legislation you pass, perhaps you should reconsider that legislation? But that isn't what will happen. The people this law was written for (the content holders) will kick and scream until the government agrees to 'streamline' the process. And we'll be right back to DMCA or 3 strikes style laws.

Re:Court System Strain (4, Funny)

jimicus (737525) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997438)

Tough tooties. If 90% of your population is criminalized as a result of legislation you pass, perhaps you should reconsider that legislation? But that isn't what will happen. The people this law was written for (the content holders) will kick and scream until the government agrees to 'streamline' the process. And we'll be right back to DMCA or 3 strikes style laws.

Sounds remarkably like the behaviour of a 2 year old.

And what happens when a 2 year old gets their own way all the time? That's right, they become spokesmen for the world's recording and movie industry.

Re:Court System Strain (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#30001974)

It doesn't guarantee you a court hearing before they disconnect you: just a "procedure". That could be a brief review by a bureaucrat who has already made up his mind. You get to appeal to a court, but only after you lose at the "procedure" level.

Re:Court System Strain (1)

rdnetto (955205) | more than 4 years ago | (#30002536)

If they have to have a hearing for each case, won't this seriously bog down the court system?

Will the industry then be limited to going after only the biggest offenders?

No, they'll just keep using blackmail and extortion, the same way they do now.

Electricity (2, Insightful)

Exception Duck (1524809) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996674)

Just wandering, are there any other comparable situations where this is done,
if I get busted 3 times for growing mariuana, do they cut off the electricity ? or water ?

The only thing I can think of is a driving licence, but in that case, lives can be in danger... so it's not really the same thing.

Well, thank you EU, good luck rest of world fighting this nonsense.

Re:Electricity (-1, Troll)

Conchobair (1648793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996746)

I think the difference is that you don't need the internet to live a normal life. Infact it usually contributes to leading an abnormal life or even not having a life to start with. Water is needed to drink and bathe and electricty is needed for at least heating homes.

Re:Electricity (4, Insightful)

spun (1352) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996870)

You can get water from a stream, collect if from your roof, or buy it in little plastic bottles. You can heat your home by burning wood. You don't need piped water or electricity any more or less than you need the Internet. They are all luxuries. However, piped water and electricity have become so ubiquitous, and so important for normal everyday tasks that they aren't really considered luxuries, they are considered basic necessities. Some people consider the Internet in the same light. That is the view the gp was basing his argument on.

You haven't refuted it. All you've done is to essentially state, "I consider water and electricity to be necessities, but not the Internet." Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but you haven't really shown why water and electricity piped from a central utility are necessities, and you certainly haven't shown that the Internet isn't, so all you have done is presented your own opinion unsupported by any facts.

Re:Electricity (-1, Flamebait)

Conchobair (1648793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997684)

Actually, I could not do any of those things and the same goes for most people I know. Without clean water or electricty I would have to drastically change the way I live. The difference still is, if unplug my home internet, I still live the same life I am right now.
I live in reality, where I'm not going to be able to bathe myself in bottles of Aquafina and be able to continue to live in my current mode of life. Let me know when you join us in this century and come back from the land of overly optimistic baseless hypotheticals.

Re:Electricity (4, Insightful)

spun (1352) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997910)

You are different from other people. For instance, some people live off the grid and do not have municipal electricity or water. Their lives would not change at all without these things, as they don't have them to begin with.

Some people, such as software developers or website owners, depend on the Internet as much as you depend on municipal utilities. More so, in fact, because you have options. You can heat your house by burning wood, or using propane delivered by truck. You can dig a well for water. There is no alternative to the Internet.

You may think people who use the Internet 'have no life,' as you said, but some people actually use the Internet for their livelihood. It is their life and you have no standing to judge them.

In 'this century' (It's the twenty first century! did you know that?) some people depend on the Internet as much as people in the last century depended on municipal electricity and water. They depend on the Internet for their 'current mode of life.'

Now, in order to prove you are more than just an angry prick who has just had his ass handed to him in a debate, perhaps you could back up your ad hominems? How am I 'overly optimistic?' How, exactly, is my argument 'baseless' or 'hypothetical?'

Re:Electricity (1, Interesting)

Conchobair (1648793) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998620)

I have come in under the pretense of a discussion, not a debate.
I will probably be down modded into the ground becuase I don't think that a home internet connection is required for MOST people (we all know there are always exceptions) to maintain thier livihood and this is slashdot, and anything slightly anti-internet people are going to troll me and mod me down. My mistake.
I don't think the majority of people depend on thier home internet connection for thier livihood. Get me soem numbers if you have proof, otherwise you are just talking out of your ass like me. Those that do, should have a buisness type account and really should not be doing illegal things with it.
The whole "no life" was a joke. It's called humor, I guess nerd jokes are not allowed. Tongue in cheek self deprecation has always been entertaing to me.
What I don't get is he calls me a prick, but I am the one labeled as flamebait. I guess that is what I get for not recognizing that I am not allowed to go againt the slashdot groupthink that "internet must always be portrayed as good."

Re:Electricity (3, Interesting)

spun (1352) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998970)

A discussion, hmmmm? Well, lets' dissect your posts for some clue as to why you've been treated the way you were.

In your original post, you said: "I think the difference is that you don't need the internet to live a normal life." You haven't qualified that by stating 'for most people' as you finally did after being slapped down, twice.

You went on to say, "Infact it usually contributes to leading an abnormal life or even not having a life to start with. " This is not self deprecating humor. You made no attempt to show this applies to you. Perhaps you wrote that with all intention of being humorous, perhaps you were just being a dick, the point is, we don't know your intention because it wasn't made clear, all we have to go on are your words, and your words are derogatory, not humorous.

Finally, you say, "Water is needed to drink and bathe and electricty is needed for at least heating homes." which is simply a non sequiter. We weren't talking about water and electricity, we were talking about municipal water and electricity.

You weren't modded down for being anti-Internet. You were modded down because, a.) you presented a poorly constructed argument unsupported by facts, and b.) you sounded, intentionally or not, like a condescending asshole.

Let me remind you that I didn't call you a prick, or a condescending asshole. I said you could prove you weren't a prick. And I said you sounded like a condescending asshole. See the difference?

Finally, let's demolish the smoking rubble that is all that is left of your argument, to whit, your statement, "I don't think the majority of people depend on thier home internet connection for thier livihood. Get me soem numbers if you have proof, otherwise you are just talking out of your ass like me. Those that do, should have a buisness type account and really should not be doing illegal things with it."

It doesn't matter if there are (currently) a majority of people who depend on the Internet. The question is, are there any? Yes, I think we both agree there are. So, shutting off their Internet would have at least the same impact as shutting off your electricity.

We can't simply make exceptions for people who's job depends on the Internet. That is not fair or equitable. It is not fair to say, "Well, business users shouldn't be doing bad things on the Internet anyway," as you did. How do we know they were? This whole thing is very extra-judicial, anyone could be falsely accused and have very little recourse to defend themselves, and no options for rebuilding their lives after their Internet connections were permanently shut off.

In short, it appears that you support and defend this three strikes legislation, and do not think of a permanent injunction barring people from using the Internet as any sort of cruel and unusual punishment because only dweebs and weirdos with no life use the Internet. That is why you were modded down, and why I was modded up for refuting your specious reasoning.

Re:Electricity (1)

Conchobair (1648793) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000104)

Someone on slashdot saying that people on the internet don't have normal lives or none at all is totally self deprecating. This is slashdot bro, I would not be here if I wasn't a nerd. I guess maybe I missed the sports section.

I forgive you and take pity upon your soul. I hope you have a nice day and resolve your anger issues. Please understand I won't reply anymore. I hope that makes you feel better too.

Re:Electricity (3, Funny)

spun (1352) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000190)

You can pull the holier than thou act all you like, but you were the one that started the insults, so it rings a bit false. Allow me to remind you:

"Let me know when you join us in this century and come back from the land of overly optimistic baseless hypotheticals."

I said nothing remotely insulting before that point. So, I also forgive you and hope you resolve your girlish passive aggressive tendencies, princess.

Re:Electricity (1)

morgauxo (974071) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998590)

Sure, if you live under a melting glacier. Otherwise you'd be taking in an awful lot of pollutants.

Re:Electricity (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 4 years ago | (#30002320)

Simple

Lack of internet only kills you in a figurative sense.
Lack of water will LITERALLY kill you.

Re:Electricity (1)

Phydaux (1135819) | more than 4 years ago | (#30005130)

You can get water from a stream, collect if from your roof, or buy it in little plastic bottles. You can heat your home by burning wood. You don't need piped water or electricity any more or less than you need the Internet. They are all luxuries. However, piped water and electricity have become so ubiquitous, and so important for normal everyday tasks that they aren't really considered luxuries, they are considered basic necessities. Some people consider the Internet in the same light. That is the view the gp was basing his argument on.

You haven't refuted it. All you've done is to essentially state, "I consider water and electricity to be necessities, but not the Internet." Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but you haven't really shown why water and electricity piped from a central utility are necessities, and you certainly haven't shown that the Internet isn't, so all you have done is presented your own opinion unsupported by any facts.

Piped water is not considered a luxury in Britain, you cannot have your water supply cut-off even if you just plain refuse to pay your water bill. Gas, electricity and telecommunications can all be cut-off because they are not necessary.

Re:Electricity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30002550)

Yes I do.
The internet is required and sometimes in some cases the only way to talk to different public and goverment offices. At least where I live. If you don't have a computer or internet connection, you are told to find a public library and use the computer there. A bit of a pain if you sign in using your personal digital certificate( http://www.danid.dk/ ). Tax reporting is no longer on paper also but on the internet too.

Re:Electricity (1)

blueg3 (192743) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997072)

Weren't the original 3-strikes laws for drug convictions, mandating prison time for the 3rd offense?

Probably worse than having your electricity shut off.

Re:Electricity (1)

cdrguru (88047) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997554)

No, the first such laws were for felonies - after the third felony (murder, armed robbery, rape, etc.) you got life in prison.

It should be clear to some what is going on when it takes getting convicted three times of such crimes to put someone away for 20+ years. Because at a state level, "life" isn't until you die in prison. It is a lot closer to 20 years or so.

Even so, some folks really got tired of dealing with revolving door prisons and some guy convicted of a fifth armed robbery.

Re:Electricity (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 4 years ago | (#30001866)

No, the first such laws were for felonies - after the third felony (murder, armed robbery, rape, etc.) you got life in prison.

Maybe that was what people expected, but in CA, what happens is that people get locked away for life for 3 minor crimes (for example, shoplifting [threestrikes.org] and other minor offenses [facts1.com] ).

Re:Electricity (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#29999118)

if I get busted 3 times for growing mariuana, do they cut off the electricity ? or water ?

You won't care, you'll be in prison anyway.

Re:Electricity (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#29999314)

Just wandering

How are you posting to slashdot if you're wandering?

I wish you guys would stop relying on your spell checkers. Wandering is a completely different thing than wondering, and it takes a second to decode it. A mispeling that a spel cheker will catch isn't nearlly so badd.

Re:Electricity (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29999726)

i have mobile internet, you insensitive clod.

Re:Electricity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30002220)

Unlimited mobile Internet.

Well played. The noobs think they got something. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29996762)

This compromise was reached with the votes of the Pirate Party member of the EU parliament, who touts it as "more than they had hoped for". He doesn't realize that they got nothing. Here's how three-strikes will be implemented: Have you ever gotten a speeding ticket? Did you pay without going to trial? Why? People will get a notification of copyright infringement, another one and a third one. Each comes with an explanation that they have the right to contest the notification. They will not contest it. After the third strike, their internet access will be cut off, and they will again have the guaranteed, irrevocable right to a fair trial before that happens. All it takes is for them to say "I didn't do it." But just like traffic violations, few will contest the charges and therefore it will be possible to actually do these trials. No more "they can't put us all in jail". The entertainment industry is only up against the few who dare to use their right to a fair trial. The rest gets the "just" punishment without so much as a hearing, and it will be perfectly in line with this "victory" for the civil liberties groups.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (5, Insightful)

davegravy (1019182) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996958)

I don't contest speeding tickets, because it is not cost effective for most minor offenses. In my country, one has to take a whole day off work to fight a ticket and it's cheaper to just pay the damn thing plus the insurance hit.

Losing my right to an internet connection has a value to me that is much higher than a day of work. I would be guaranteed to take the trial option, and I suspect most people feel similarly.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997618)

In the UK, you can (or could, not sure if it's still true) often get off a speeding ticket because they won't bother chasing any more than six months old. There are a number of things you can do, such as request copies of the camera pictures and so on that take a good 9-12 months to complete before they take you to court and if you delay these as long as possible the system becomes so backlogged that they drop you and just go after people who will pay immediately. Maybe this kind of law will get the same treatment...

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30000442)

Did you hear this in the pub?

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (1)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 4 years ago | (#30004276)

OTOH, in Poland they have a backlog of overdue payments for traffic tickets as long as 5 years, and they keep the queue progressing as if nothing happened, calling people to court for 5 years old traffic offenses.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29997418)

I, on the other hand, think that most people would indeed be willing to fight an accusation that could take away their internet access for the rest of their lives.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29997772)

To re-use your analogy, the 3rd offense is equivalent to having your driving license annulled. I'll bet most people are willing to contest the charges for *that*.

Differing opinion. (2, Interesting)

Balinares (316703) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997860)

I hear your point, but I beg to differ.

1/ I understand the fair hearing clause is sufficient to invalidate the horrible HADOPI law in France. In fact, I suspect it was put in there specifically for this purpose. The Sarkozy government tried to make Internet access termination automatic by hammering it into the same simplified, no-hearing judiciary subsystem that handles traffic fines, and this clause explicitly disallows that.

2/ The clause of due respect for presumption of innocence means that the onus will be on the recording industry representative to prove that it was you who downloaded, so suing on the basis of the IP address alone may not be sufficient anymore. The HADOPI law tried to make the owner of the account associated with the IP automatically guilty for anything that happened on that IP. This may not fly anymore.

3/ If a standard judiciary procedure is required, then it means a judge will have to decide of your sentence fairly. Making Internet termination an option, not an obligation. And judges don't tend to apply the maximal sentence without good reason. That, and French judges aren't exactly fond of the Sarkozy government, as a whole.

Now, don't you worry, I'm pretty sure that the Sarkozy government will (once again) rewrite their broken law to be just about as bad as the EU will let them get away with. But this is still a step up from the current state of things.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (2, Interesting)

Husgaard (858362) | more than 4 years ago | (#29999240)

If you read his blog [wordpress.com] (in swedish), you will know that he knows the fight isn't yet over, and that the compromise isn't the best possible solution.

But compare with what the Council of Ministers wanted before the compromise: They wanted to be able to cut off people from the net without any evidence of illegal activity, only accusations. Without any judicial intervention, and presuming that people are guilty until they prove their innocence (if possible).

This is the first major international political victory of the Pirate Party.

Now it is required that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. It is required that a juridical entity rules on the matter before people are punished by cutting them off the net.

We pirates may still be on the defence, but our defence works great.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (1)

Imrik (148191) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000866)

I think most people are missing the point. Yes, you'll obviously contest the one that denies you internet, but if you don't contest the two before it the system essentially becomes a one strike system with the two previous counts being used as evidence to make it seem more likely that you also committed the third offense.

Re:Well played. The noobs think they got something (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30005068)

In my country (Spain), everybody contests speeding tickets. It's done through lawyer groups who contest all your fines for between 50 and 250 per year.

More than 80% never pay (I swear you can find the real statistic on the web).

The power of the lawyers mainly consists in taking all the thousands upon thousands of fines and sending then simultaneously throught the slowest and most complex legal path.

You can even use this personally without being a lawyer. I just contested and won 18 different 90 fines. In that case, I was not right, I just contested it in a propper way.

Just legalize downloading already (3, Informative)

jabjoe (1042100) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996792)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1720068211869162779# [google.com]

Seriously, does anyone techy wait for programs they want to watch to be broadcasted in their country? Everyone techy (and more of the young are techy), at least that I know, watches what they want, when they want. Some old stuff I watch I don't think you can even legally get hold of! Streaming cuts it for some, but not myself as I like to watch in my media player of choice, streaming doesn't fit into my net use and I'm damned if I'll download it again to watch it again.

Re:Just legalize downloading already (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000076)

jabjoe == Troll? Really??? All he did was express his opinion. I disagree with his viewpoint, but I don't think he's a troll.

European Council (4, Insightful)

SwedishPenguin (1035756) | more than 4 years ago | (#29996802)

The fact that the European Council (Swede's take note, this includes our own infrastructure minister, from a party that officially claims to be supporting our rights but in practice has done the opposite) even argued for suspending the right to a fair trial indicates that there is something seriously wrong with the entire system. How can these people be allowed to reign free? We need to realize that the council consists of our own governments and hold them responsible for whatever the council does. The council is not a democratic institution, they conduct negotiations in secret, they advocate draconian measures, they frequently force the European Parliament, the only elected body of the EU, to bend down to it's will. We need to get rid of these people NOW! They are a very dangerous bunch of people.
Even with this wording, some, including many parliaments, will interpret the text as not requiring a court hearing, and implement it as such.

Re:European Council (3, Informative)

PeterBrett (780946) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997008)

The council is not a democratic institution, they conduct negotiations in secret, they advocate draconian measures, they frequently force the European Parliament, the only elected body of the EU, to bend down to it's will. We need to get rid of these people NOW! They are a very dangerous bunch of people.

The European Council is indeed a democratic institution: it's comprised of the heads of state or government of the member states, all of whom are elected (in the case of monarchies, the Prime Minister sits on the Council).

The European Commission is the non-democratic farce comprised of appointed, unelected bureaucrats who do things like try and push through software patents in a fisheries bill and ignore demands made by our elected representatives in the European Parliament.

I think you may have got the two confused.

Re:European Council (1)

SwedishPenguin (1035756) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997160)

I know the council consists of our own governments.
The main reason they are not a democratic institution however is the severe lack of transparency and the utterly non-democratic laws.
I am also of the opinion that they are much to far removed from the people to have any deciding power. I can't speak for all governments, but the Swedish government does not vote in parliament, it can propose laws, but it cannot vote on them, this is left to the elected body, the parliament.

The commission is also not very democratic, they're essentially a group of government paid lobbyists with a very large influence, though they don't have any deciding power on their own.

Re:European Council (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997668)

It's not the lack of democracy that's the problem, it's the lack of transparency. Even in the directly elected European Parliament, voting records are secret so you can't tell whether your representatives are representing you at all. Contrast that with the other tiers of government in the UK where I can get detailed reports about any of my representatives [theyworkforyou.com] . I'm tempted to stand in the next European election on a platform of greater transparency - you can't have democracy without accountability and the European parliament does not have this.

Re:European Council (1)

whisht (1507481) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000642)

I can't verify its accuracy but if you're interested in European parliament voting records this site [votewatch.eu] seems to be a good place to start.

Re:European Council (1)

lordholm (649770) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997096)

Agreed, I have for a long time bitched about the council and how impossible it is for it to fall in its whole, since that would mean that the member-states' governments would all fall at the same time.

I hear a lot of complaints of the commission, but the commission has fallen when it lost its parliamentary support and the commission rules at the parliaments approval. The council however, are not accountable as such, have the right to make law (the commission do not have that right, they are just implementing the EP and ECs decisions in accordance to the treaties) and are not directly elected.

The council is problematic and should as soon as possible be replaced with a directly elected senate, that is disjoint from the member-states' governments. But then, we are talking about the "f-word", so people will scream like stuck pigs.

Re:European Council (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30000268)

If you do that (have a directly-elected Senate or Commission or Council), then the European Union will end-up looking like our United States, and your local UK or French or German government will merely be a puppet of the centralized power. As is the case when the U.S. forces all 50 states to ban gay marriage, or drop speed limits to 55, or install a three-strike law.

I would advise you to avoid that route. It has not worked well for us.

I would rather have half of the legislative body consist of State governors/leaders, in order to preserve the States' power and independence, and block the power of the central US or EU government to ram through dictatorial laws.

Re:European Council (2, Interesting)

Balinares (316703) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997922)

> How can these people be allowed to reign free?

The Rome treaty.

I understand the balance of power will be shifting back in favor of the Parliament when the Lisbon treaty goes into effect.

So elect your representatives wisely, good folks.

Re:European Council (1)

fritsd (924429) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998430)

I understand the balance of power will be shifting back in favor of the Parliament when the Lisbon treaty goes into effect.

In that case, it will be interesting to see what the fisheries ministers all get to sign before 1 December :-)

Re:European Council (1)

SwedishPenguin (1035756) | more than 4 years ago | (#29998748)

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. While the parliament get some more areas of responsibility, it does not get to be free of the council "co-decision" procedure, and the council gets more power as well. The parliament will bend over backwards to satisfy the council just as it always has, and the council will continue to push draconian laws and will continue with their policy of complete non-transparency.

Re:European Council (2, Informative)

Husgaard (858362) | more than 4 years ago | (#29999420)

How can these people be allowed to reign free?

They can't in the long run as long as democracy works.

Christian Engström was elected into the EU-Parliament because of the actions of the Swedish government.

And next year the Swedish government is going to loose their power, according to the polls. Their demolition of citizen's rights is probably one of the main reasons. And with a bit of luck, the Pirate Party is going to enter the Swedish parliament next year.

win for cops and intelligence agencies (2, Interesting)

michaelhawk (1667847) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997226)

"Accordingly, these measures may only be taken with due respect for the principle of presumption of innocence and the right to privacy."

-

This is a win for intelligence agencies and other organizations who want to be able to inspect every packet. This decision has reduced the likelihood we will get real privacy by the development of encrypted anonymizing p2p systems.

This is not a victory (5, Insightful)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997304)

They asked for everything including the kitchen sink.

They got everything except the kitchen sink, and you're trumpeting this as a success of rights?

This was the plan all along. Ask for everything settle for half. Except they got about 80% of what they wanted and they gave up nothing in exchange.

Treaties (2, Interesting)

ThatsNotPudding (1045640) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997352)

Don't treaties like ACTA trump national laws? Isn't that really the whole point of the evil that is ACTA?

Re:Treaties (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#29997680)

Yes, but European laws are really treaty obligations too (e.g. to the Treaty of European Union) and so it's a question of whether one treaty trumps another.

Re:Treaties (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#30001996)

> Don't treaties like ACTA trump national laws?

Only to the extent that they become national laws. In many jurisdictions treaties do not have any effect inside the country until the government enacts enabling legislation.

Re:Treaties (1)

rdnetto (955205) | more than 4 years ago | (#30002570)

Since ACTA is still being written, my guess is it will be updated to use loopholes in this. It would be a pretty big blow to them if every country in the EU refused to sign it.

Re:Treaties (1)

nickco3 (220146) | more than 4 years ago | (#30004672)

> Don't treaties like ACTA trump national laws?

All depends what your national laws say about treaties.

Communication is a privilege, not a right (2, Insightful)

mykos (1627575) | more than 4 years ago | (#30002516)

Remember: communication is a privilege, not a right. Commit slander, libel, or insider trading verbally? Lose your tongue and lips. Commit them via writing? Lose your hands. Is this where we're going?
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