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Oracle Outlines Plans for Sun Products, Casts Doubt on NetBeans

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 4 years ago | from the oracle-grinding-a-fresh-new-roast dept.

Java 151

An anonymous reader writes to tell us that a recent FAQ released by Oracle outlines the plans for many of Sun's popular products like GlassFish, MySQL, and NetBeans. Many are worried at some of the possible avenues the decisions outlined could lead to, especially with respect to NetBeans. "What should have happened, Oracle should not have missed a beat and should have announced work on Oracle plugins for NetBeans and active Oracle support of NetBeans. This type of announcement would have brought a large and some-what skeptical NetBeans community much closer to Oracle. It would have been a big win for Oracle. NetBeans will continue to grow either way - but Oracle has missed a big chance to really change perceptions and at the same time move their tools to another level. What JDeveloper lacks is buzz, a wealth of community developed plugins, a wealth of support for other languages and a very, very large community. And of course it does not offer a platform in the NetBeans and Eclipse sense of the word. This is a huge missed opportunity for Oracle."

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NetBeans? Really? (2, Insightful)

qoncept (599709) | more than 4 years ago | (#30037936)

I wasn't aware anyone seriously used it. I used it for school and I've been on Eclipse since I started doing real projects.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038102)

I wasn't aware anyone seriously used it. I used it for school and I've been on Eclipse since I started doing real projects.

Ever eat beans and then take a shit and see some intact beans in your shit, sorta like corn? That's Netbeans.

Speaking of shit, how Slashdot manages to take a full 20 seconds between hitting "Preview" and seeing the preview is beyond my powers of explanation. If I coded the Javascript myself I'd have to work very hard and try multiple times before finally arriving at code that's so goddamned slow. Or I'd have to cheat and put "sleep" functions in it.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1)

AlbertinaJane (978419) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038616)

My Qentium Multo has no problem with that JavaScript. I see Preview before I even hit it.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038104)

for j2ee it is the best ide...

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1)

LDoggg_ (659725) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038638)

Is that a fact?

When you say J2ee do you mean strict Sun implementation?

I find that eclipse webtools with the spring IDE plugin does a good job for developing server-side java.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0, Flamebait)

jDeepbeep (913892) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038164)

and I've been on Eclipse since I started doing real projects.

And the dogma wars begin. I would mod you flamebait if I had points left for the day.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1)

PotatoFarmer (1250696) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038210)

Ease up on the throttle, buddy. GP was likely contrasting his current "real" projects with his "fake" school projects, not making a comment about other people's IDEs/projects.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0, Flamebait)

qoncept (599709) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038236)

Really? That's lame. I stated nothing but facts. I used NetBeans in school, I use Eclipse now that I do real projects. And the original point was I didn't realize anyone used NetBeans for real projects. Not that I've been paying attention.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1)

vvsiz (612267) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038264)

Why to comment then if you were not paying attention and just producing just random nonsense about things you have no real knowledge?

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038300)

dbag

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

qoncept (599709) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038452)

I asked a question.

"Really?"

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038502)

Yay for assumed sarcasm and such.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038570)

The only developers I know who use NetBeans are homosexuals. Both of them.

I hear that you don't have to be gay to use Java, but it helps.

I'm just stating facts...

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1, Flamebait)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038926)

Shut up. You're obviously an emacs user and as such are an inconsequential twat.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (5, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038414)

It's slower than Eclipse but it does quite a few things Eclipse doesn't do well. A visual Java swing application designer that works for starters!

It's more stable too.

Given Oracle's Java procedure support in Oracle they're missing a trick, they should integrate SQL Developer and NetBeans to create a really good Java/Warehouse/BI tool.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038586)

A visual Java swing application designer that works for starters!

Like this [eclipse.org] ? (Actually, last I checked, that was horrible for Swing GUIs, but that was a long time ago.)

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040334)

I think you hit on the main point. Oracle gives very luke-warm support. If it moved SQL Developer to NetBeans they would have a great combination.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038634)

The company I work for uses it seriously. It's okay, though it could be faster.
I tried Eclipse a few years ago. It's just confusing. Me be dumb, but I don't like it.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (4, Informative)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038978)

I use both. I like Netbeans since 6.x, and I still use eclipse on some legacy projects.

Eclipse is snappier at times, but it reeks of being created by a committee of competitors and a pain in the ass at times to setup for anything more substantial than editing (Subclipse or Subversive as a case in point). However, once you get it working, it works fairly well.

The latest incarnation of Netbeans has more features out of the box and a whole lot easier to install and get to work with your SCM and etc.

Both work sufficiently well as an IDE.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1)

ccarson (562931) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039364)

I use both. I like Netbeans since 6.x, and I still use eclipse on some legacy projects.

Eclipse is snappier at times, but it reeks of being created by a committee of competitors and a pain in the ass at times to setup...

Agreed. My back hair has gone grey from fighting to get SOAP environments working correctly in Eclipse (they need to fix this!). Despite that, it's a decent product.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (3, Insightful)

SnapShot (171582) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039510)

I agree. I used Eclipse for years but I've started using Netbeans 6.7 for more and more. The problem we have where I work is that we do PHP projects and Java projects. Six or eight months ago we were having real trouble getting getting PDT to play nice and, so far, NetBeans just works and switching between projects is very easy.

Anyway, they are both great IDE's that continue to get better and better. If I have to switch back to Eclipse is won't be a major sacrifice, but I'll be unhappy that there won't be a free IDE competitor to keep the Eclipse devs motivated :-)

Either? Really? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30039032)

IMO both Netbeans and Eclipse are a waste of time. What is the point of an IDE that can't even get basic text editing UI right?

Re:NetBeans? Really? (2, Insightful)

kaffiene (38781) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039412)

As a Java developer of many years experience, I've been using NB since about version 5. That's when it started being better than Eclipse and Eclipse starting turning into a plugin nightmare.

Re:NetBeans? Really? (2, Insightful)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039446)

Uuum, you mean that huge slow mess of co-dependent modules and shit, that you have to wade through for weeks to get to anything usable, that is called Eclipse?

Really! as a Java, J2ME, Haskell and web developer, I stopped after two fucking weeks! It's even worse than the Miranda IM! Hell, it's worse than installing Gentoo from Stage 1! And that means something!

Sorry for the hate. But sometimes, hate is deserved.

I'm happy if you are happy with it. And in system administration, I can also be a bit that way.
But I... well... in programming... I just want to code...

I can do with Kate, or any basic code editor, and a reasonably scriptable shell, if I have to. No problem.
But when I get the possibility to get more without a big hassle, I go for it.

Before NetBeans, I used JBuilder, because I was used to Delphi, which I got to from the old Pascal days. (Man, was Turbo Pascal a great environment, or was it?)

Conclusion: Everyone has its own motives, interests and tastes. Everyhing is relative. Stop being so egocentric, and acting like we don't do "real projects" like the oh so great guru that you think you are. Because with that narrow view on the world, I seriously doubt you even understand real "guruness". :)
(But hope you'll get there. And me too. :)

Re:NetBeans? Really? (1, Insightful)

upuv (1201447) | more than 4 years ago | (#30040738)

I have to agree. Eclipse has become an un-usable mess.

I actually went back to a decent text editor. When I went back into the repository I found I wrote more code with the text editor than I did with Ecilpse by shear line count. I also had less bugs. This I completely did not expect at all. I also billed less time to "life cycle" AKA bug fixes. I guess looking back at it now I can attribute it to having less distractions and being required to actually research the interfaces I was using.

Now I definitely want to get a decent IDE. I believe it would make my code better. But Eclipse is not it.

Seriously how the hell does an editor/ide require over 1Gig of ram to run efficiently. That's just crazy. Can't even run it on a 32bit machine.

Maybe I'll take a look at NetBeans again.

Re:NetBeans? Really? I tried it, it's decent stuff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040286)

I've taken a peek @ it in my return to Academia this year to learn more "modern stuff" beyond .NET, which I have used in the workplace professionally, & I went the "JAVA ROAD", to mainly "see how the other 1/2 lives" AND most importantly, to learn something NEW!

(Which makes it harder on me, by far in doing a "new language" & one that STRONGLY reminds me of C++ which is probably HOW I am "surviving it" (lol, it's hard, but A+ in 1 class, & C+/B- in other JAVA section (taking 2 @ once, not easy really, especially with no direct JAVA experience before on my part)), but it's worth doing because @ this point I actually LIKE Java (not for performance, but rather for the fact that "you write it once, you can run it anywhere" that it is largely about, alongside data protection in objects since it is "OOP"))

Anyhow/anyways:

Usually, in class? Well... we do projects & labs programs using tools like JGrasp &/or TextPad (which are PRIMITIVE by comparison to other dev environs of course, but, they do "DO THE JOB" of course) usually.

Now, some of the "younger folks" (who are OUTRIGHT AMAZING imo, because the young programmer of TODAY is a HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN THE GUYS WERE MY AGE TYPICALLY, when I got into this stuff 15++ yrs. ago - then again, they've also (a couple of them) been @ it for 15++ yrs. already too, starting from the age of 5-6 from what they have told me... amazing really, ah.. anyhow). Those same "young guys", who impress the hell out of me in class, have "turned me on" to NetBeans... & know what?

I LIKE IT!

(It's as close to doing what I am used to, which was RAD tools like Borland Delphi, Borland C++ Builder, VB 3-6, & .NET in Visual Studio is why - not THAT "far apart" as far as learning to build GUI style apps in JAVA, vs. doing charactermode/consolemode/tty terminal type apps in JGrasp or TextPad only (man, that's like returning back to 1990 & below imo, but, it is how the coursework is implemented, & I am just a "rookie" in JAVA too, so I have to start w/ "the fundamentals" I suppose, anyhow!)

Anyhow - it'd be a shame to see what amounts to a pretty "well-polished tool" in NetBeans, imo @ least, just "fade out into the nothing" & disappear... because though you guys may know better about JAVA & what IDE's + tools are out there for it? I think NetBeans is pretty damned impressive, & especially for a FREE PRODUCT!

APK

P.S.=> It happens though (good things 'dying off'), this is life, after all... I'd just hate to see it happen! I've seen Eclipse, but I have not "put my hands on it & used it", so it very well MAY be "all that" as those of you here who 'raved on it' seemed to give me that impression of, but... again, haven't used it myself, but I have used NetBeans & it's really decent imo! apk

not interested in the near valueless crap (0, Flamebait)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 4 years ago | (#30037950)

still waiting for Oracle to decide on the substantial Sun product's direction. the ones that were worth billions, now in limbo, even losing value without an announced plan

Oracle Palns. (4, Funny)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 4 years ago | (#30037966)

http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/11/oracle-sun-palns

I don't know what palns are or why Oracle/Sun thinks they are important, but ...

Re:Oracle Palns. (4, Funny)

Icegryphon (715550) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038046)

They are obfuscated plans I assume,
I guess they are going to try to give IBM a run for there money?

Re:Oracle Palns. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038208)

They are obfuscated plans I assume, I guess they are going to try to give IBM a run for there money?

The word is their, genius. I bet you're (yes that's "you're" and not "your") a native English speaker, too. Seriously, read a book once in a fucking while. It'll help you avoid embarassing yourself like this.

Because I am so helpful, I'll give you an example. When it comes to Slashdotters who are native English speakers, there is no goddamned excuse for their lack of mastery of the English language, so obviously they're lazy bastards. See? Was that really so hard?

For your next number you can prove that you don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose," you loser. That's another lazy-bastard mistake. Speaking of lazy bastards, I would not be the least bit surprised if the people who make these mistakes are more likely to be obese than the general population. Sloth is sloth, whether it's mental or physical.

Re:Oracle Palns. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038360)

Except when it's slothe!

Re:Oracle Palns. (-1)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038580)

That's another lazy-bastard mistake. Speaking of lazy bastards, I would not be the least bit surprised if the people who make these mistakes are more likely to be obese than the general population. Sloth is sloth, whether it's mental or physical.

Says the man who is too lazy to spell out "that is" and "it is".

Glass houses and all that.

You do know that when you write a grammar troll, you should ensure your own post is free from grammatical error?

(Of course, you also need to seed your post with one, and only one, intentional and blatant grammar error in order to confound other grammar nazi's.)

Re:Oracle Palns. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30039114)

I count two errors in your parenthetical. Is that your way of doubly confounding the Nazis? I've identified one of your grammatical errors in my query. There, now I have shown you the other.

On a side note, I don't see anything lazy about using tools (in this case, contractions) that are available. If using tools appropriately is lazy, then what are you doing using a computer? You should just be doing a bunch of calculations in your head. Perhaps the GP would have been more appropriate had he said "ignorant" instead of "lazy" but, in my experience, one begets the other.

Ooops, just found two more. Your first two "sentences" are not sentences at all, yet you still use periods.

Re:Oracle Palns. (1)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039672)

OK, I give up, anonymous coward. You win.

You win the General Internet Douchebag Award for Excellence, in the category of Grammar Douchebaggery in a Tech Forum.

Here's your prize... happy now?

(Besides which, my first sentence is a complete sentence. The direct object is the blockquoted text, the subject is "the man who is too lazy...", the verb is "says".) Perhaps some remedial classwork would be of some benefit?

Maisons du verre (0, Troll)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039612)

Says the man who is too lazy to spell out "that is" and "it is".

You think he's bad? I went to France once. What a bunch of lazy bastards with all with all their cheesy l' garbage. Perhaps if the socialist bastards would work more than 20 hours a week maybe they'd have time to spell out le and la in full.

Re:Oracle Palns. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040038)

That's another lazy-bastard mistake. Speaking of lazy bastards, I would not be the least bit surprised if the people who make these mistakes are more likely to be obese than the general population. Sloth is sloth, whether it's mental or physical.

Says the man who is too lazy to spell out "that is" and "it is". Glass houses and all that. You do know that when you write a grammar troll, you should ensure your own post is free from grammatical error? (Of course, you also need to seed your post with one, and only one, intentional and blatant grammar error in order to confound other grammar nazi's.)

You do realize that there is nothing grammatically incorrect about using a contraction, right? The laziness is evidenced by an inability to use your own native language in a grammatically correct fashion. "It's" versus "it is" is a purely stylistic matter because both are correct. Nice try and thank you for playing.

Re:Oracle Palns. (1)

sconeu (64226) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039368)

Ha! More proof that security by obscurity doesn't work!

Re:Oracle Palns. (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039480)

Losers. I tapped the here money, and now can relax all day long in my grammar nazi deckchair. :D

Re:Oracle Palns. (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039570)

No, there's a vowel in there, and it's not in all caps.

Netbeans just isn't there (3, Insightful)

mapnjd (92353) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038036)

Unfortunately for Netbeans zealots, it has never caught up with Eclipse. It may have surpassed it temporarily for certain apps (think Grails support - but look at STS 2.2.0). It's also not as good as IntelliJ IDEA (previously, always non-free).

Yes, both Netbeans and Eclipse are also RCP platforms, but how many real Netbeans platform apps are there? (The Nokia one on the web site is vapourware - yes it shows a real customer RAN - without their permission, I should add! - but it's never been a product delivered to customers). Real Eclipse RCP apps do exist (XMind, Lotus Smartsuite...). Realistically, they both over good RCP platforms (one pure Java, one SWT) but Oracle won't really care about that.

As for JDeveloper - well it's a typical Oracle product - if you're in an Oracle house, it's pretty good, but no, it's not got a large userbase or community supporting it.

Oracle should let Netbeans drift off into open source land. Perhaps it'll thrive? I don't know. JDeveloper's functionality should be ported to Eclipse (along with SQL Developer, while we're at it).

Oracle are great at giving you tools once you've signed up for the ride, and why not rebase your products on the best? Which in my opinion is Eclipse.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (2)

Yacoby (1295064) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038258)

Given that nothing has caught up with Vim or Emacs in terms of the speed one can edit a text file, I think we should ditch all other programs than can edit text as there is obviously no need for them.

I think Oracle pushing Netbeans would be a good thing. More competition is good and I have no problem with having more choice.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038486)

You should check out Eclipse for your vim/emacs pangs.

Eclipse: There's a plugin for that!

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (3, Insightful)

Deth_Master (598324) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038558)

I think that might be part of the reason I don't like Eclipse. I don't get the functionality I want without customizing the crap out of it. That might be useful for some, but not for me. I like power, but I also like convention, so long as it follows the convention I use.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038836)

True enough, which is why they've started distributing Eclipse "distros" tailored for certain purposes.

Like Java, Java EE, C/C++, PHP, etc, etc.

The great part is if you end up need one of the other feature sets, it's only a click away.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30039296)

I for one welcome this approach. First thing on the list to dump, MS Word. Let's follow that with Word Perfect, Works, etc...

The only thing in the same sort of vein that I'd leave alone is Adobe Illustrator. Though Scribus is getting closer, they're really the only way to do real print work. And if you're not printing it, keep it all text. in 90% of cases, there's no reason for the extra heft that is Word, it's just used 'cause it's what people think they need but it's a heck of a sledge hammer for normal text docs or even HTML work (notepad and vim are still my favourites for HTML/JS/CSS editing, both professionally and personally.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038344)

You are forgetting one veeeery important thing. I dont remember the stats exactly but only about 5% or 20% of all software is publicly available. All the rest is software developed based on contracts for specific use at a specific company and you cannot know how many such apps were developped on NetBeans platform. If you dont use it, it does not mean nobody else does and trust me there are plenty of apps being deployed based on NB platform.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (4, Insightful)

Deth_Master (598324) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038382)

Hmm, as a java development platform (and as a C/C++ development IDE) it is unrivaled by Eclipse. Things seem to work so much smoother in netbeans. You don't have to configure the shit out of it to use it. Most stuff follows the convention over configuration principle. At least that's the way it seems to me
Every time I use eclipse I'm surprised at the exceptional amount of options there are to do something simple. I rarely use them. Most of the options could be done with a couple bits of typing anyway.
As for the RCP stuff, I don't particularly care about that. I think eclipse has the upper hand in that stuff, as that's what it was designed to be in the first place, unlike Netbeans, which was designed to be a Java IDE.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (2, Interesting)

Zalbik (308903) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039724)

ost stuff follows the convention over configuration principle. At least that's the way it seems to me

I think you may be misinterpreting the "convention over configuration" principle. It is exactly the principle that Eclipse follows.

Convention over configuration means that if you are doing standard stuff, no configuration is required. If you want to do non-standard stuff, you need to configure it. This is why there are so many configuration options in Eclipse. 99.9% of them you don't need unless you are doing something unconventional.

Netbeans seems to follow the "My way or the highway" principle. You either squeeze yourself into the Netbeans box, or don't use it.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (2, Informative)

trendzetter (777091) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038396)

Netbeans is real cool for webdevelopment. While I have been wrestling for days to get Eclipse installed with the right plugins I just got going in less than then minutes with Netbeans.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038608)

You know I was always a IDEA guy and then switched to eclipse, well I did a project that required us to do some JAX-RS work and they where using Netbeans, Wow just wow, I was converted, I think allot of people have overlooked Netbeans a a web development platform and it is ashamed. With it's tooling for JAX-RS and support for the major JavaScript tool kits building a AJAX front end that communicates to REST services is as easy as RAILS, PHP, Dijango or Groovey or any of the other rapid development frameworks yet uses Java for the service back end.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038460)

Lack of platform applications means little. The point of an IDE is to create applications with it, not on top of it.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040106)

Lack of platform support means quite alot. It means that you can't leverage/use the same underlying substrate that the IDE itself uses - all those services that allow you to create an IDE.

Bottom line if you don't have the platform part is that you have to build all that stuff yourself.

That's why you see so much support for other languages in NetBeans. They can re-use the underlying platform and use the editor, syntax highlighters, various property sheets, storage mechanisms, etc.

That's the advantage of having a platform - your app can use the same facilities as the IDE if you want.

Re:Netbeans has tons of platform apps (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038606)

It looks like someone didn't bother to check the NetBeans platform application showcase where there are so many platform apps that they had to categorize them:

http://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (3, Interesting)

multi io (640409) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038660)

Yes, both Netbeans and Eclipse are also RCP platforms, but how many real Netbeans platform apps are there?

Well, with Eclipse, the IDE is pretty good, but the RCP platform -- not so much. It's quite obvious that this thing was designed to write Eclipse (IDE) plugins. For writing standalone applications, the whole approach seems overengineered. OSGI doesn't buy you much in that context, and one doesn't want to turn every small standalone app into a kind of mini-Eclipse, with simple things like command shortcuts and editor selection synchronizations being handled by 5 plugins interacting in complex ways. And then the whole SWT/native-UI-toolkit thing is bound to bite you at some point, e.g. if you're trying to have a table control with varying row heights, for God's sake.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038892)

Equinox (the osgi implementation) and the core runtime is pretty lightweight. Not tiny mind you, but you're talking like a megabyte or so.

I'd be interested in seeing a better plugin application framework, I work with Eclipse's and I think it's pretty damn perfect.

Oh and my eclipse application doesn't include SWT/JFace or any of that stuff. :)

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

jma05 (897351) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039568)

> Oh and my eclipse application doesn't include SWT/JFace or any of that stuff. :)

Then your application probably isn't an RCP application but rather an OSGi application.

Re:Oracle has declared war on IBM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038758)

Oracle has declared war on IBM:

http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html

I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle announces that they will invest more money in NetBeans than Sun currently does and put less focus on their Eclipse plugins.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038856)

Yes, both Netbeans and Eclipse are also RCP platforms, but how many real Netbeans platform apps are there?
Well, apart from VisualVM [java.net] which is a very nice profiling tool (and even included in the JDK [sun.com] these days) you also have the Java ME SDK [sun.com] (version 3.0).

But most of all, if you would have bothered to check the NetBeans website [netbeans.org] you would have found the platform showcase [netbeans.org] . So to answer your question about how many real applications: dozens, as you can see for yourself.

Not to flame; but your comments about Eclipse vs. NetBeans would have had much more impact if you would actually have done some real investigating of your own.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (4, Interesting)

Joseph Lam (61951) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039034)

Netbeans isn't there in terms of industry backing and support (which is what we hope Oracle will provide). As far as the software itself is concerned I find it to be at least as good if not better than Eclipse. It's been significantly improved over the last couple of years from version 4.x to 6.x. There are two things that I like it better than Eclipse:
- it's 100% Java and runs fine on anything that has a JVM (Eclipse's SWT has platform specific dependencies which prevented me from using it on 64bit machines, it took ages for it to have proper x64 support)
- better developer experience because of a cleaner and sensibly chosen set of plug-ins that all work out-of-the-box with no dependency hell (Eclipse plug-ins is a mess unless you pay for commercially packaged versions like MyEclipse)

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30039050)

Well, IGV [broadinstitute.org] seems to be partially a netbeans app - and I've been using that at work.

IDEs out-competing each other for bloat (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039146)

If you ask me all the IDEs are getting bloated to the point where I think in 2-3 years you're going to need a 64 Bit environment with 8GB or more of RAM just to develop. (Where I am we find Weblogic development using Eclipse is getting slow on 32bit machines with 2GB RAM is getting...difficult) There is some attempt to address this with each IDE by making the platform extensible, and component/plugin based. Unfortunately to do even basic things you end up finding yourself stuck needing a long list of plugins, so whilst this is theoretically a fantastic move, in practice you're still left with a bloated environment. If you need support for multiple languages or environments you find the plugin architecture is no help at all for preventing bloat. (It's still great for adding features).

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0, Flamebait)

kaffiene (38781) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039462)

That's just rubbish. I moved to NB from Eclipse because NB works better for me (and not just for J2EE, either, most of my work is client-side)

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039464)

Unfortunately for Netbeans zealots, it has never caught up with Eclipse.

It depends. In terms of how easy it is to create, say, an UI application, NetBeans is much better out of the box than Eclipse, especially its awesome visual Swing designer. I've also found J2ME development to be more of a breeze in NetBeans compared to Eclipse offerings.

The problem with Eclipse, it seems, is that it overemphasizes extensions to the point that, to do anything useful, you need some mix of extensions. And often there are several extensions available that do the same thing differently, so you have to pick. So it's kinda like Linux - it's pointless to debate it in general, because the specific experience really depends on one's set of extensions used.

NetBeans is much more of a "turnkey" approach - you download the full version, install it, and everything that it can do, is there and working. If you want web or J2EE development, you get the full stack of servers, too. In that, it's much closer to Visual Studio in approach (which may be a good or a bad thing depending on your perspective).

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039614)

Who came up with all that "platform" and "framework" shit? Someone with the motto "less modularity, less freedom, more lock-in!"?

I refuse to use everything that calls itself a development "platform" or a "framework". Please give me plain properly modularized and separated libraries!

I would never even come up with using my coding IDE as a runtime-library-kinda-thing! I mean how fucked up is that? If it were Microsoft, we would all smite it in the "two minutes hate" each day! ;)

But I see it positive: I have the freedom to not use it. And thereby gain an advantage over all the "enterprise consultants" who use that stuff. Which is pretty nice of them, actually... :)

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (3, Interesting)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039630)

I like Netbeans because it's easy to use. Perhaps Eclipse is useful for super-uber-professional programmers, but I do think Netbeans is the IDE for the rest of us. I like how everything seems to be self-explained and intuitive.

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (1)

rho (6063) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039942)

Who is using Netbeans?

Is there any major Internet site or technology that relies on it?

This sounds like the kind of announcement that will make two or three dozen Netbeans programmers gnash their teeth, and everybody else go, "....so?"

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040004)

> How many NetBeans RCP platform apps

quite a lot. some examples are found at :
    http://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html

Re:Netbeans just isn't there (3, Informative)

farble1670 (803356) | more than 4 years ago | (#30040440)

Unfortunately for Netbeans zealots, it has never caught up with Eclipse.

that's an opinion that i'm guessing has either to do with how you use your IDE, or the fact that you haven't used netbeans in a while. i use both. i use netbeans for java / java EE development, and eclipse for android development (since netbeans doesn't have officially blessed android plugin).

leaving out the lack of an official android plugin, netbeans beats eclipse in every way. ease of use, plugins, stability, ease of install, flexibility, standards. the only thing i can say bad about netbeans is that it uses more resources that eclipse ...

That's the power of open source (3, Informative)

iamacat (583406) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038052)

If Oracle is not interested, other people/companies will carry on the development. In general Sun customers should be applauding the foresight of the company to make pretty much every peace of their hardware and software Open Source and compare their situation to that of Peoplesoft or Siebel customers. Even if everything Sun is killed off tomorrow, it would still be possible to manufacture Sparc-based servers running Solaris and with applications developed using Java and Netbeans.

JDeveloper is great... (4, Insightful)

wandazulu (265281) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038062)

...if you want to interact with Oracle products. I tried really hard to use it, even using it as both a Java IDE and a PL/SQL IDE and, while yes, it does work, I found it too slow and clunky to just "bang out some code" when you need to write up a throwaway program really really fast.

But, like I said, if you want total interaction with your database or app server (assuming that app server is oc4j), then I suppose, if you have to use only a single tool, I guess, well, shrug, I guess it's better than nothing...I guess.

It's the database, stupid. (1, Insightful)

Animats (122034) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038134)

MySQL matters. NetBeans, not so much. Most of the web runs on MySQL. There aren't that many good open-source alternatives. (Oracle owns BerkeleyDB, too.) PostgreSQL is about it, and because that's Berkeley-licensed code, not GPL, it can be forked and the open version abandoned.

Oracle has to dump something. I'm surprised they kept the SPARC line alive. It just doesn't seem to be necessary any more, and it was a money drain for Sun.

Re:It's the database, stupid. (3, Interesting)

mbrod (19122) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038274)

They shouldn't be allowed to own MySQL. Europe should shut that down and they should spin it off.

Re:It's the database, stupid. (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038578)

They shouldn't be allowed to own MySQL

Er, why? And from what I understand, the code is GPL'd, right? So they own it kinda in the same way RedHat owns RedHat Linux? (the answer to "why" may be found in educating me just what Oracle owns now, too, hehe...)

Re:It's the database, stupid. (1)

petermgreen (876956) | more than 4 years ago | (#30040624)

Er, why? And from what I understand, the code is GPL'd, right?
Right!

So they own it kinda in the same way RedHat owns RedHat Linux?
Wrong!

Redhat probably have complete ownership of some apps (not sure what their contributor rules are like for say rpm) but most of them they either don't own any of the code in an app at all or they only own some of the code (which doesn't really get you much except the ability to reuse the code they own in other projects). So afaict other than the brand and it's associate reputation they own little of significance.

Mysql (the division of sun and before that the company) takes pains to make sure that all the code in mysql (the database) is either owned by them or by third parties they have propriety licensing agreements with. This means that they are the only company who can sell (or in some cases give, see php for example) you a license to link the mysql libraries with non-gpl software*. Afaict selling such licenses is mysql's main revenue source. So a fork would struggle to make any income and could not be used for propietry apps.

*This is based on the FSFs interpretation of the GPL but unless we see court cases in a number of countries showing otherwise the safe thing for a buisness to do is to follow said interpretation.

Re:It's the database, stupid. (1)

SEE (7681) | more than 4 years ago | (#30040674)

And Europe just did [reuters.com] .

Re:It's the database, stupid. (3, Insightful)

shogarth (668598) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038524)

SPARC is still quite relevant; there are few things as nice as running a multi-threaded set of applications on the Sun Niagara chips. If I were a database software outfit I would want to make sure there were two architectures out there (IBM POWER and something else) focusing on enterprise performance rather than media creation/encoding.

Take a look. [sun.com] Is there anything in the Intel or AMD product pipeline that will get you 2 x 10 Gb ethernet, 64 thread pipelines, and 128 GB of RAM in a 1U box? Even better, the price is really competative with buying the same performance worth of x86 gear in multiple boxes by the time you think about rack space, cooling networking and all the rest of the data center head aches.

Re:It's the database, stupid. (3, Insightful)

dingen (958134) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039398)

I'm surprised they kept the SPARC line alive. It just doesn't seem to be necessary any more, and it was a money drain for Sun.

Well actually, the most common platform for Oracle deployment is Solaris on SPARC. So it doesn't seem so strange to me that Oracle isn't ditching their most used hardware platform now that they own it.

What are you talking about? (2, Informative)

jotaeleemeese (303437) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039576)

Do you know what the high end Sparc machines can do?

I am sure that the terminology does not even exist in Intel-AMD processors, because they simply can't scale in the same way. You would have to look perhaps at IBM or HP.

Certainly an SPARC desktop will be soon a thing of the past, but in the high end arena SPARC can't be touched.

Yes, true. (1)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30040746)

But, you do realize that something that is BSD licensed can also be forked into a GPL version? Simply keep the BSD license notifications and ALL future additions to the fork are licensed GPL/LGPL, GLPv3 etc. You now have a GPL fork. So, if someone (who by the way?) abandons the BSD licensed version and begins solely working on a proprietary fork, the rest of the community can simply take the last BSD licensed version, create a GPL fork, and lock-out future proprietary forks and prevent the proprietary company from using the now GPL contributions to the GPL fork in their proprietary product.

Consider the source. (3, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038286)

TFA is quoting Gartner. When is the last time Gartner got something right? It's full of weasel words. Lots of "If ..."

Read what Oracle wrote [oracle.com] . They're not abandoning NetBeans.

What are Oracle's plans for NetBeans?

Oracle has a strong track record of demonstrating commitment to choice for Java developers. As such, NetBeans is expected to provide an additional open source option and complement to the two free tools Oracle already offers for enterprise Java development: Oracle JDeveloper and Oracle Enterprise Pack for Eclipse. While Oracle JDeveloper remains Oracle's strategic development tool for the broad portfolio of Oracle Fusion Middleware products and for Oracle's next generation of enterprise applications, developers will be able to use whichever free tool they are most comfortable with for pure Java and Java EE development: JDeveloper, Enterprise Pack for Eclipse, or NetBeans.

Fuck Gartner. Fuck them in the heart.

Re:Consider the source. (1)

Deth_Master (598324) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038418)

I think that's fairly non-committal, which is what the slashdot summary stated.
Most of the comments state that they're missing out on something by not throwing their full weight behind Netbeans.
Then again, Oracle could just be waiting to see what they're gonna do...

Re:Consider the source. (2, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038738)

What's non-committal about "NetBeans is expected to provide an additional open source option and complement to the two free tools Oracle already offers for enterprise Java development"

They say the same thing about OpenOffice, They expect netbeans to continue to remain a viable tool. Their history shows that they don't just throw tech out after spending money to buy it. Example: They didn't kill off InnoDB. they said virtually the same thing for OpenOffice

Oracle has a history of developing complete, integrated, and open products, making integration quicker and less costly for our customers. Based on the open ODF standard, OpenOffice is expected to create a compelling desktop integration bridge for our enterprise customers and offers consumers another choice on the desktop. After the transaction closes, Oracle plans to continue developing and supporting OpenOffice as open source.

NetBeans, OO, and MySQL are going to be open source projects under Oracles' roof. Being open source, it's not like Oracle can kill off any of them. They may not throw much financial or other muscle behind netbeans, but they don't have to for it to continue. If it were a closed-source product, that would be a different story. It's not. The only thing that can kill it is user disinterest.

In other words, Gartner are just trolling, like always.

Re:Consider the source. (1)

Joseph Lam (61951) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039108)

The only thing that can kill it is user disinterest.

But Oracle's lack of R&D commitment can cause user disinterest.

Re:Consider the source. (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039268)

The only thing that can kill it is user disinterest.

But Oracle's lack of R&D commitment can cause user disinterest.

If users stop contributing, then it dies out. As long as users are still interested in netbeans being an active open-source project, it will continue whether Oracle contributes R&D or not.

Re:Consider the source. (1)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039204)

In other words, Gartner are just trolling, like always.

It's not "just" trolling... some of their "analysis" is bought and paid for. You think companies get into their "leaders quadrant" without laying out the substantial subscription fees to Gartner?

Re:Consider the source. (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039312)

Very true - they got caught hyping technology as being "best-in-breed" when it wasn't even released.

What amazes me is that anyone still listens to them, or Yankee Group, etc. Then again, the incompetent WOULD listen to the incompetent, since birds of a feather flock together ...

Just goes to show that the Peter Principle is alive and well, I guess.

Re:Consider the source. (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039636)

Seconded! They are the kind of people called "opinion creators". Usually they work for someone who wants to twist reality to his favor.

So fuck them! With a spoon!

Why a spoon?

BECAUSE IT HURTS MORE! ^^

TFA misses the point. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038450)

This is not their first acquisition of a Java IDE (Or even their first JDK for that matter...)

Post-purchase they found themselves with two different Java IDEs, didn't see themselves supporting both, and picked the stronger of the two.

*shrug*

What JDeveloper really misses.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038514)

..is some effing stability. Try using it, it's the biggest POS in the history of excrement. It caches all sorts of things it shouldn't cache, requires frequent restarting and even requires manual deletion of forgotten files every once in a while. No one in their right mind would want to use this for anything. Ever.

As if Oracle cares... (4, Insightful)

Angst Badger (8636) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038772)

I hate to belabor the obvious here, but Oracle is not terribly concerned with what developers think about them. There are two reasons companies buy Oracle licenses: they either absolutely have to have them, or someone much further up the chain than the developers -- at least in most companies -- thinks that they do. From the altitude in the org chart where those decisions are made, there's no difference between us and the janitors.

Am I the only one... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30038792)

I've been using Netbeans since about version 5, exclusively over Eclipse. It is far simpler to set up, a hell of a lot less buggy, and handles remotely hosted projects far better, and blew away over Eclipse's web development plugins in a single version or so (from 5 to 6.5 it took over Eclipse's web plugins, some of which aren't free, and have been developed at for years and years), where as before it had nothing. Even larg-ish webapp projects can kill Eclipse if they aren't local, code completion and lookups lead to outright halts for up to minutes, where as Netbeans seems to happily index the remote files in the a background process and thereafter code completion is very snappy, it's depth of lookup is better than Eclipse as well.
Netbeans is far and away a better managed project than Eclipse, which gets more out of hand with every version, and it shows, it's far more polished. Also Netbeans runs faster, and looks nicer on any system I've put it on, despite being not SWT(which is an un-needed mess in itself) like Eclipse. I know it will never, ever, have the extensibility or community of Eclipse, but that's not the be all-end all of an IDE.

Re:Am I the only one... (1)

durdur (252098) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039812)

Early versions of NetBeans really, really sucked. It has come a long away. But I think it was too long getting there and Eclipse and other IDEs got mindshare and market share. Right now there are virtually zero Oracle customers who are going to defect to someone else because they don't have NetBeans support. There are some that want Eclipse very badly (mostly those that are not pure Oracle shops but use WebSphere too). So it's a no-brainer for them. There's no payback to them supporting 3 IDEs (NetBeans and Eclipse and JDeveloper, until/unless they converge).

Oracle is a big Eclipse supporter too - OEPE (5, Interesting)

jambay (531064) | more than 4 years ago | (#30038958)

Disclaimer - I work for Oracle and came from the BEA Systems acquisition.

My personal opinion is that Oracle is very dedicated to the entire Eclipse ecosystem as well as to JDeveloper. It's about choice. There is an entire free download product that is continually being enhanced called the Oracle Enterprise Pack for Eclipse (Oh-Pee is how we say it within Oracle). In fact I believe it was one of the first, if not the first commercial IDE to support the latest Eclipse 3.5 Galileo. http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/enterprise-pack-for-eclipse/index.html [oracle.com] OEPE is targeted for Java and JEE developers and is mostly about supporting the Java standards. Additionally, the majority of the TopLink code was donated as the EclipseLink project and is currently the JPA reference implementation. Just take a look at the presence has at the next Eclipse conference and I think you will see that Oracle is committed to Eclipse. http://www.eclipse.org/eclipselink/ [eclipse.org]

When you get into the "upper-stack" components like SOA Suite for integration and WebCenter Suite for enterprise portal development, and Oracle's Application Development Framework (ADF) that Oracle strongly recommends JDeveloper. Those products have been based on JDeveloper for a long time and the user-experience developing for those products is extremely smooth because Oracle can influence everything about the IDE. If you want to do Java and JEE development in JDeveloper, you can do that too. It's your choice.

Re:Oracle is a big Eclipse supporter too - OEPE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30040512)

Look, when we're bashing someone around here you're not supposed to drop by and defend yourselves. Those are the rules, and by breaking them you're disrupting the entire bash-orgy, ok?

Java Plugin? (1)

HRbnjR (12398) | more than 4 years ago | (#30039256)

Oracle plans to not only broaden and accelerate its own investment in the Java platform, but also plans to increase the commitment to the community that helps make Java an ubiquitous, innovative platform unified around open standards.

Does that mean Sun will now stop reneging on their promise to open source the new Java plugin? http://blogs.sun.com/darcy/entry/openjdk_and_the_new_plugin [sun.com]

Calling Bulls@#t on this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30039884)

Netbeans wont die. Not today, not tomorrow. If Netbeans would die tomorrow, it wouldnt move to a new infrastructure now [netbeans.org] ...

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