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Microsoft Responds To "Like OS X" Comment

samzenpus posted more than 4 years ago | from the imitation-is-the-greatest-form-of-flattery dept.

OS X 505

Z80xxc! writes "After a comment by a Microsoft employee claiming in an interview that 'what we [Microsoft] have tried to do with Windows 7... is create a Mac look and feel in terms of graphics,' the Windows 7 team has issued an official rebuttal, saying that the comment came from an employee who was 'not involved in any aspect of designing Windows 7,' and that it was 'inaccurate and uninformed.'"

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505 comments

ego (5, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071330)

Random person thinks he knows everything, grows an ego and tells "juicy" stuff to press to boost that said ego while actually knowing nothing.

Nothing to see here. But I suspect lots of Linux/Mac OSX fanatics will be coming in 3.. 2.. 1..

Re:ego (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071388)

I suspect lots of Linux/Mac OSX fanatics will be coming in 3.. 2.. 1..

I came as fast as I could! Just let me get my breath back and I'll start bashing whoever the bad guy is in the story! Who is it today? MacDonalds? Apple? Microsoft? Jack Thompson?

Re:ego (5, Insightful)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071772)

Jack Thompson is a safe bet in all situations.

For every Off-topic mod you get, you'll be almost guaranteed one Insightful mod. As long as you're against Jack Thompson. Which I am!

Re:ego (5, Funny)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071394)

..0
OMGBBQ!!!!! Gnome is bettar than both!!!!! and anyway it all comes from PARC work blah blah GEM blah blah Amiga blah ....

Re:ego (1, Insightful)

OscarGunther (96736) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071484)

Who mod parent a troll?! Have you no sense of humor, sir?

Re:ego (5, Funny)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071516)

I don't get why it'd be funny, but I also don't get why it's modded troll. Some people are just to trigger happy, eh?

Maybe it's a KDE user who did it.

Re:ego (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071638)

I doubt a KDE user would do it, they'd have to spend too long looking through the huge array of buttons and options that do similar things in order to just be at the end of desperation, push one of them in the hope it does the right thing.

Re:ego (0, Flamebait)

coinreturn (617535) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071408)

or...Total butt-kisser thinks he is helping the situation by claiming Windows is like MacOSX so that there will be no reason to switch. Actual look-and-feel sucks shit, so his comment is misleading. MS fanboys try to claim Win7 is actually better in 3.. 2.. 1..

Re:ego (5, Insightful)

sitarlo (792966) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071456)

Or, totally informed person tells the truth and evil corporation fabricates a "rebuttal" to save face.

Save face? (4, Insightful)

professorguy (1108737) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071574)

The employee specifically said they copied the Mac's "look and feel" which is a determining factor for infringement lawsuits. So as far as lawyers are concerned, he basically said "We stole some of Apple's work."

They ain't trying to save face. They are trying to save a lawsuit loss (i.e., money).

Re:Save face? (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071798)

What they should have said, then, is "What was that? All of your ground breaking, paradigm defining, insightful ideas were taken from a well respected competitor? Welcome to the board^H^H^H^H...^H^HYou're fired!"

Re:ego (0, Flamebait)

RedK (112790) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071478)

Or you know, this guy just let out the big dirty secret and in an attempt to save face, the "Windows team" puts out an official response that claims the contrary even though at this point it's pretty obvious to anyone with 1 functionning eye, trying to kill the first guy's credibility in order to sweep all of this under the rug.

The end the night by sucking their collective thumb and weeping for their mommies to "make it all go away".

See, anyone can say anything about it. The few people who know the actual truth (the first guy and the Windows team) won't ever tell us the real truth.

Re:ego (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071542)

in other news, Microsoft employee says "iPhone is better than WinMobile", cue Microsoft fanbois to criticise employee and distract everyone from the frickin' obvious.

Re:ego (1)

loupgarou21 (597877) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071616)

I'm not so sure that he was really looking to juice his ego. I'm guessing that he probably knew exactly what he was talking about, but his phrasing was very poor. It's not that they were trying to copy Apple with the redesigned UI, they probably did a lot of testing and probably interviewed a lot of computer users about what they do and don't like about the UIs of various operating systems, and probably got a lot of comments, especially from Mac users, about how the average user wants a very simplified user interface where the things they use frequently are easily accessible to the user, and the more complex things, like computer settings are somewhat hidden from the user, harder to get to and accidentally change. So while redesigning the UI, they tried to take that philosophy of a more user-centric UI, not that they were trying to copy the Mac OS interface.

Put aside the ego... (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071672)

But I suspect lots of Linux/Mac OSX fanatics will be coming in 3.. 2.. 1..

Who cares about them, though! For the rest of us, it's a non-issue. Lets face it - the best thing about the Macs *is* their interface. It certainly isn't the overpriced hardware and its limited capacity for upgradeabiity. If Microsoft can sell me a similar interface without these issues, then that's a plus for me. Yay! Capitalism!

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coolforsale (1677136) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071364)

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Something About Bill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071396)

Bill: "STEP INTO MY OFFICE!"

Idiotic Microsoft Employee: "Why?"

Bill: "Cause you're fuckin' fired!"

they've been copying Mac all along... (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071404)

For sure the prime source of inspiration and functions for Windows comes from Apple's work! And maybe now and then from somewhere else. So I'm more inclined to believe the interviewed employee than the higher-up managers refuting it. Of course they can not admit they simply copy Apple, after all.

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (5, Insightful)

JerryLove (1158461) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071480)

So Mac copied Xerox Star, and Windows Copied Mac? Do you know who copied whom for OS/2, Amegia Workbench, NeXT, Linux, BeOS, and GeoWorks; all of which have similar WIMP interfaces?

It would be silly to say that any (other than STAR) evolved in a vacuum; but "borrowing ideas" has happened in every direction.

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (1)

Shrike82 (1471633) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071546)

Yep, toally agree.

A lot of people applaud OS X for it's great interface, and these same people then bash MS for admitting that they let it influence their design! If a piece of software has a good look and feel then competitors are obviously going to take this into consideration. If they don't then they get left behind. I mean come on, honestly Microsoft, you're telling us that you never once took a look at Apple's operating system and thought "Hmm that bit is pretty good. We could use something similar."

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071628)

If Xerox STAR had never been created, the differences between PCs today would be the clickiness of keyboards and whether or not your display could handle 132-column mode. On the upside, these PCs would STILL be running terminal emulation most of the time. Billions of reboots would have been prevented. Even better, Microsoft's involvement would be limited to a nifty BASIC interpreter, long since obsoleted by other languages. Best of all, mainframes would still be king of the hill and IT would be a great career option. As soon as we can build a time travel device, I propose we go back and eliminate Xerox STAR just to see what happens.

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (1)

Dolohov (114209) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071656)

More to the point: what on earth is wrong with copying good interface ideas? As a Microsoft stockholder I'd be far more upset if they *didn't* look at Mac OS when designing Windows!

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071712)

So Mac copied Xerox Star...

Says the person whose never seen a Xerox Star.

Yes, there are a few similarities, but nothing like Win-Mac.

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071858)

NeXT

...was where Jobs was before coming back to Apple and AFAICT is what he is turning MacOS into. Not that I'm complaining; I LOVED the little black box.

Re:they've been copying Mac all along... (1)

digitalhermit (113459) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071868)

It was all a fractured metaphor.

The idea was that your computer desktop would be like your physical desktop. This has likely done more to thwart usability in subsequent incarnations than any Frankensteinish idea from Microsoft ever could. Sure, maybe it made sense when files were very application specific. If I wanted to open up a letter, I'd open up my mailbox that's sitting on my desk. If I wanted to dispose of a page, I'd put it in the trashcan that I keep on my desk. The TV would be on my desk. As would the, uh, hi-fi system. And for almost every action I would need to check the junk desk drawer on the bottom left of my screen where I'd find everything else that I needed. Of course, I could start moving things from the drawer to my desktop but in a few days it would be so cluttered that it would be difficult to find anything, especially since the calculator would be the exact same size as my television and my notepad and my journal (that is to say, about 0.75" wide and tall). We might as well have chosen a steering wheel metaphor or a buggy whip metaphor.

Our interfaces seem to border on the ridiculous. On this laptop I'm using right now, there are a dozen extra buttons for media, wi/fi, hibernation, home (not sure what that one does, but it has an image of a house on it). They're all tiny buttons, less than a centimeter square. There are lots of LEDs too. There's no "Check Engine" light though, or a fuel gauge though. But that would be more useful than a hard drive busy light to me.

Why do I have to go to three menus to increase the font size in a document? Hell, I'd like to be able to messy select a line of text and pinch expand the font size. I want to be able to move text around by dragging (some apps can do this). I want consistent behaviour in my web browser as in my document editor. If I want to cut an image from my screen and save it to a file, I shouldn't have to launch two applications to do it (and I don't mean some Alt-PrtScr that saves a bitmap to my desktop but a way to lasso select almost *anything* in a vector format image).

The thing is, we have the hardware power but the interfaces are so clunky that using the power is difficult.

Underwriters (0, Troll)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071624)

In 1994 and earlier:

Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 709 F.Supp. 925 (N.D.Cal.1989) (Apple I); Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 717 F.Supp. 1428 (N.D.Cal.1989) (Apple II); Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 759 F.Supp. 1444 (N.D.Cal.1991) (Apple III); Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 779 F.Supp. 133 (N.D.Cal.1991) (Apple IV); Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 799 F.Supp. 1006 (N.D.Cal.1992) (Apple V); Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 821 F.Supp. 616 (N.D.Cal.1993) (Apple VI).

And in 2003:

8. In 1995, Microsoft introduced a software package called Windows 95, which announced itself as the first operating system for Intel-compatible PCs that exhibited the same sort of integrated features as the Mac OS running PCs manufactured by Apple Computer, Inc. ("Apple"). Windows 95 enjoyed unprecedented popularity with consumers, and in June 1998, Microsoft released its successor, Windows 98.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, vs. MICROSOFT CORPORATION, Defendant. COURT'S FINDINGS OF FACT [justice.gov]

And in 2005:

"They can't even copy fast,"

It is truly bizarre that average people allow the shills to make noise promoting such incompetence. Look at their search engine payment bug [softpedia.com] and you are reminded yet again what kind of people they must scrape the bottom of the barrel to get. Not just known-nothings, but fresh-out-of-school ones at that. Sadly that scam has gone on for a generation. What happens if they get into schools or colleges and start posing as staff or faculty??

Re:Underwriters (1)

MetalPhalanx (1044938) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071788)

"What happens if they get into schools or colleges and start posing as staff or faculty?"

Sadly that has already happened long ago. Shitty profs are shitty profs. And, I'd rather have a shitty prof JUST out of school (who may actually understand the internet and at the very least may post notes) rather than a shitty OLD prof who sucks and doesn't understand this new-fangled internet thing.

Things not to do if you like your job (5, Insightful)

Random5 (826815) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071410)

Pretty sure on the list of 'Things not to do if you like your job', admitting you're inspired by the competition and complimenting their design TO THE PRESS has got to be in the top 3.

Re:Things not to do if you like your job (4, Funny)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071816)

I would probably go with defecating on the CEO's desk, being caught copulating with cleaning equipment, and attempting to snort toner out of the photocopier would take up those top slots, but hey, if you think you can get away with one of those...

What Apple does right (5, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071418)

Apple and Microsoft attack the problem of user interface from two completely different points of view. Microsoft wants things to be orthogonal, logical, menu driven, hierarchical, and otherwise fully featured. Apple takes the approach that the user doesn't want to fuss with all sorts of menus and submenus (no two button mouse for years!) and just wants to do what they need as simply as possible. So you end up with two completely different interfaces.

Apple's interface is elegant but inflexible. Everything fits into the existing scheme and runs perfectly within that scheme.

Windows' interface is flexible but clumsy. While this has gotten much better in later versions, we're still looking at deeply nested menus, and applications which do not necessarily have any UI themes in common with each other.

However the key point is that Microsoft is gradually becoming more user-centric. As far as that goes in their own perspective. They are making changes to the OS that were implemented in Mac years ago, and now that they are here, they make Windows a better product.

Aesthetics is a major theme with Apple, and it is one that Microsoft hadn't fully embraced until Vista. Listen to the users. Let the users tell you what is good and bad. Build the interface to match the user.

In a sense, the MS employee was right. Microsoft is doing a lot to emulate Apple. And frankly, it's about time.

For everything Apple does one way (1)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071466)

they seem to go the other with iTunes.

I still see no reason for Apple to not allow sizing windows from any corner, let alone hiding/moving the Apple bar at top.

Re:For everything Apple does one way (3, Insightful)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071560)

There'd be a lot more tech support calls to Apple if you could easily get rid of the top menu bar.

Re:What Apple does right (4, Insightful)

Procasinator (1173621) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071482)

One of the problems OS X has is that it lacks the ability to use these menus through the keyboard easily. In Windows I can hit the Alt key, and quickly see all the menus I can open by using an other key (the letter used for the menu item will have an underscore). Such as Alt + F is the file menu.

Each menu item then can be accessed usually through an access key. So Alt - F - S would be save. I know in both Windows and Mac OS X you have direct save short cuts too, and you can configure short cuts to common items, but that's not I want.

What I want is to be able to access a menu list from the keyboard quickly while exploring, not remember various different short cuts.

Re:What Apple does right (2, Informative)

Dupple (1016592) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071548)

On the mac you can hold down the control key or right click to get a contextual menu. Try it, you might like it. Support varies from program to program and you don't always get what you might expect or hope to see. But that's down to the application vendor and not apple

Re:What Apple does right (2, Funny)

DarthBart (640519) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071588)

Right click? What is this right click you speak of?

Re:What Apple does right (1)

wolrahnaes (632574) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071894)

It's the button you gain when you throw away Apple's shitty bundled mouse and plug something in that doesn't suck. The ADB mouse was the last good mouse Apple made (though the new glass trackpad is very enjoyable to use). The puck was of course so bad I don't expect even Apple fanboys to defend it, the "Pro Mouse" had nothing inherently wrong with it, but was simply uninteresting given that it lacked a scroll wheel and a minimum of three buttons. Since then they've tried twice to provide the missing input, but in both cases they have missed the mark. The "Mighty Mouse" scroll ball was too tiny to be of any use and right-clicking required lifting your left finger off the mouse surface entirely. The new "Magic Mouse" solves the scroll ball issue, but for some reason still requires lifting the left to click with the right.

Not an Apple hater though, this post typed from a Macbook Pro with an Apple aluminum keyboard, but with a Logitech G5 handling the mousing duties. I love the platform, just wish King Jobs would get his head out of his ass regarding the single button thing.

Re:What Apple does right (2, Interesting)

Procasinator (1173621) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071642)

When you say contextual menu, you mean the right-click menu?

Cause this isn't what I am talking about.

What I am talking about there is a menu options in Tools -> Options -> Random Area -> Some Option. In Windows (most anyhow, and most linux apps too), the underlines appear when I hold down alt (I used italics to demonstrate where this will be). I can then go Alt + T + U + R and then use arrow buttons to get too Some Option.

How do you do this in Mac OS X?

Re:What Apple does right (1, Troll)

joh (27088) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071698)

You press Control-F2 and use the cursor keys to get to Some Option.

Re:What Apple does right (3, Informative)

Procasinator (1173621) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071736)

Which is slower, as I mentioned in a reply to another poster who brought this up.

Might not be important to some people, but to me, it's a feature I miss in Mac OS X land.

Re:What Apple does right (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071886)

In Windows (most anyhow, and most linux apps too), the underlines appear when I hold down alt (I used italics to demonstrate where this will be). I can then go Alt + T + U + R and then use arrow buttons to get too Some Option.

How do you do this in Mac OS X?

Control-F2 to give the menu bar keyboard focus, then use the arrow buttons or first letters of the menu items. Check out the Keyboard pane in the system preferences for other keyboard navigation options. (I found this in less than three minutes, by the way; it's amazing what one can figure out, when one is more interested in learning than complaining.)

Re:What Apple does right (4, Informative)

gtomorrow (996670) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071726)

System Prefs > Mouse & Keyboard > Keyboard shortcuts*.

A quick look tells me that CTRL-F2 puts focus on the menubar, CTRL-F3 places focus on the Dock, etc etc. OSX has had this since (someone correct if i'm wrong) since at least 10.2 .

So, that's about enough of this "can't navigate in OSX without the mouse" propaganda. [/wishful thinking]

* Apologies if the wording isn't exact as i'm translating from the italian.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

gtomorrow (996670) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071822)

OOOPS! My reply was meant for the GP and not parent poster...ehmmm, yeh.

Insomma, not for Dupple but for Procasinator.

Re:What Apple does right (3, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071608)

One of the problems OS X has is that it lacks the ability to use these menus through the keyboard easily

Remembering the shortcuts on Macs is usually easier because they are consistent (ignoring the three different ways I have of making Apple's video-playing apps run full screen, and the fourth way that VLC uses). On Windows, an entire key on the keyboard is reserved for going to the menu bar. This is something that most users don't do - they either click on the menu with the mouse or hit shortcuts directly - and so on OS X is a chord. By default, it's control-F2, but it's configurable in System Preferences, so if you want it to be something easier to hit then you can change it.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

Procasinator (1173621) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071688)

his is something that most users don't do - they either click on the menu with the mouse or hit shortcuts directly

This is my problem - I do use this manner. It's handy because I don't have to learn the various different short cuts accross different applications. It also allows me to explore the various commands quickly in a new application or get to commands without shortcuts without leaving my keyboard.

control-F2 is something, but it's more keyboard presses to be worth it. As in Control+F2, right, right, right, there is my menu option. So it doesn't allow quick access to actions or exploration without using the mouse.

I know I can configure short cuts to actions I often access, but tbh, I prefer not having too.

Re:What Apple does right (5, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071802)

I don't understand your complaint. On windows, you do alt, F, S and get to the save menu item in the file menu. On OS X you do contol-F2, F, S, and get to the save menu. It is just one more keystroke. I'm not sure why this is better than using shortcuts to jump straight to the menu though, nor why you think pressing keys to explore the menu is better than using the mouse.

Re:What Apple does right (2, Insightful)

Procasinator (1173621) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071934)

I was told you could only use the cursor keys. I seem to remember that myself, but could be wrong (don't have a Mac OS X installation near me to find out). The reasons why I might not want to use the mouse are many, including:
  • I could be using a program that is keyboard centric (such as word processing) and might want to access a menu option that I don't use regulary.
  • Using the keyboard is usually (and when designer properly, always) faster than using the mouse. Especially on a dual display, where the distance between my cursor and the option I want to use could be quite large

Re:What Apple does right (2, Informative)

joh (27088) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071646)

What I want is to be able to access a menu list from the keyboard quickly while exploring, not remember various different short cuts.

This is Control-F2 on OS X. This selects the menu and allows to browse it with the cursor keys.

Alt+character has always been the way to type various special characters and ligatures on the Mac. Wasting this for another way to access menu entries instead was never an option for an OS that grew up with DTP.

Re:What Apple does right (3, Informative)

caseih (160668) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071938)

Definitely sounds like person who has only used a Mac on occasion. I used to think like you about it until I actually used a Mac for a while. Actually I find OS X and most OS X applications to be more keyboard-friendly than Windows. Every single command you use frequently has or can be assigned a command-something combination (or control-something). So things like open, close, print, save are always assigned the same command key sequence across all apps. That's a time saver right there. Why alt-f-s when command-s will do? While most Windows users will actually click on file->save to save their document, very few Mac users I've seen bother with clicking on the menus for most common tasks; it's all done with the keyboard.

As was said earlier in the discussion, OS X and Windows come from very different philosophies. You speak of how you want to explore the menu. On OS X that's absolutely wrong. If you have to explore the menu to find something, then someone screwed up. Deep, nested menus are considered bad on OS X. Besides, alt-something-something-something reminds me of emacs!

There are many inconsistencies in OS X that are legitimate grievances. But not being able to alt-something-something-something the menu doesn't appear to me to be that important. I'm far more frustrated on a daily basis by how OS X eats the click that focuses a window (now I use command-tab and command-` to focus windows anyway without the mouse), that you have enable keyboard navigation in dialog boxes as it's off by default, and that carbon and cocoa apps behave so differently.

Both systems have their inconsistencies, and both are getting better in this regard. And from what I can tell from using Windows 7, Windows is getting more usable and mac-like all the time.

Re:What Apple does right (0, Troll)

mdwh2 (535323) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071580)

Microsoft wants things to be orthogonal, logical, menu driven, hierarchical, and otherwise fully featured. Apple takes the approach that the user doesn't want to fuss with all sorts of menus and submenus (no two button mouse for years!)

MS have dropped the menu approach (think Office) - but personally I prefer the menu approach. And Apple's OSs have had menus for years, anyway.

Apple applications still make use of two buttons, which you have to clumsily press a control key to access.

applications which do not necessarily have any UI themes in common with each other.

No, it's Apple who are the worst offenders here - just look at how Quicktime and Itunes on Windows completely fail to comply with the Windows UI standards.

In my experience, Quicktime and Itunes are the worst UIs I've encountered - anything but elegant. I have trouble finding out how to do simple tasks in Itunes (e.g., getting it to recognise updated mp3 ID tags). Only yesterday, I plugged someone's Ipod into my computer so we could watch something - only to find the software had renamed files into random garbage, distributed across randomly named folders in no apparent logical order. We had to guess via file sizes, and try every single one until we came across it. Apple, it Just Works!

And what does "elegant" even mean? What's your objective definition, and your evidence for this assertion?

As always, subjective assertions without evidence get modded up simply because they are pro-Apple, whilst I bet I - even though I give clear examples and evidence - will get modded down, simply because these facts do not fit with an Apple moderator's worldview (how does moderation work these days, anyway? I haven't had any for years, and it seems they're only given out to those who mod up pro-Apple posts these days...)

Microsoft is doing a lot to emulate Apple. And frankly, it's about time.

God, I hope not. And with "Macs" these days being Apple branded PCs, I'd say the reverse is true.

Re:What Apple does right (2, Informative)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071598)

Multi-button USB mice work perfectly fine with Macs. To right click with touch pad, put two fingers down on surface instead of one. There still is the control click, as you said.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071706)

> Apple's interface is elegant but inflexible. Everything fits into the existing scheme and runs perfectly within that scheme.

Bullshit.

Just look at the "zoom button" debacle on OSX. There is no "maximize window" functionality. The little green button with a "+" in it often makes the window *smaller* - or minimizes it (in the case of iTunes).

The OS is filled with these massive problems because it has been simplified to the point of being retarded.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

jordibares (1276026) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071714)

IMHO it is a cultural difference, not a user interface difference, not a graphical interface difference, and sure not aesthetics driven. A bit more like talking about user behaviour design vs. graphical design, this is years of innovation on Apple's side that Microsoft has not grasped yet.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071774)

I actually agree with you, but yet look at the Office 2007 UI.

It does a great job of solving the problems you state, options that aren't relevant are hidden, and only options relevant in the context of what you are doing are shown. To me this is a much better way of doing things, and yet the amount of people who complain, the amount who hate it far outnumber those who like it- OpenOffice and Firefox have recieved the same feedback when they suggested the same type of change to a UI that only provides what is relevant in the context of the actions being carried out for their applications too.

So the question is, whilst to some people like you and I the simplified context relevant system seems better, is there an underlying reason many others hate it? Do they simply dislike change? or is there something else there, like a context based system being more confusing for them because things aren't always where they were?

For what it's worth though I actually hate many of the Windows 7 changes, the new gadget system is appalling compared to the sidebar. Gadgets are useless because they're either on the desktop, out the way, and you have to explicitly switch to the desktop to see them in which case if you have to explicitly switch they may as well just be applications or alternatively they can be set to be always on top which means they obscure any windows you're working with underneath them. The sidebar ensured this wasn't a problem by allowing Windows to resize around the sidebar meaning they were both always on top, always available and yet never in the way.

I also found the taskbar changes unhelpful on a large screen, although it's great on the small screen of my netbook where taskbar space is limited, but on my 24" screen at 1900x1200 the new system only uses up about 20% of the length of the taskbar and yet I have to take extra clicks to find the window I want because they're all hidden in their groups. I reverted back to the classic taskbar where the Window I want is available instantly by using the full taskbar.

I even find the start menu since Vista much less efficient to navigate too in all honesty, if you don't type in the name of the program and want to click through because you don't know what icon was added the pre-Vista start menu was far more efficient.

As I say though, I do like Microsoft's ribbon interface. For me it's all about the speed and efficiency at which I can work, and much of the Windows Vista / 7 UI changes seem to add the amount of mouse movement and clicks I need to make, the Ribbon UI however does not as it puts what I need right in front of me when I need it.

Re:What Apple does right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071812)

Windows' interface is flexible but clumsy. While this has gotten much better in later versions, we're still looking at deeply nested menus, and applications which do not necessarily have any UI themes in common with each other.

Please, please do not try to hang "applications which do not necessarily have any UI themes in common with each other" on Windows alone.

Any GUI operating system that allows skinning of applications, whether by design, or by sheer bloodyminded overriding of low-level user interface drawing routines, will eventually have this problem as soon as some programmer decides that he doesn't like the "standard, boring, old window style" and he then proceeds to inflict his new "vision" of what the interface should look like on the user.

Then you wind up with non-rectangular windows in garish colors of the programmer's choosing with buttons that don't look like buttons, no visible menu bar, and few, if any, of the features users are used to seeing in their application windows.

Re:What Apple does right (1)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071892)

Interesting. My background is cpm/dos/windows/(lately)linux and a few years ago i was messing about with a bondi blue iMac on OS7. I found it hard to get it to do anything, it couldn't see any win or linux boxes or any printers on the lan, which I half expected, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of configuration for the network or the screen or indeed any hardware compared with the equivalent win95/98. Maybe what I want to do isn't what Apple expects me to want to do?
I would welcome the chance to try a more modern mac and see how things have altered.

So? (5, Insightful)

war4peace (1628283) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071436)

So a Microsoft employee says something out the top of his head. In a normal discussion between me and you, this would be just an opinion, something along the lines of "I think that...". But change the speaker and all of a sudden it's along the lines of "BIG SECRET REVEALED!!!1111" kind of thing. Even worse, for most people it becomes one with the company's official PoV and this simple statement grows so much that the company must spit out a rebuttal via an official channel/spokesman.
We are living in a twisted, perverted world, where one can't express an opinion without being beheaded by both the press and the company he's working for. God help us all! :)

Hi (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071440)

I'm a Mac and Windows 7 was MY idea

News of "staff restructuring"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071442)

...coming to the guy in 3... 2... 1...

If only.... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071444)

Now if MS could just shoot for the same level of security that Mac OSX has, out of the box, then we'd be talkin'

Re:If only.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071494)

that's a plan! microsoft should change the windows API and sell windows 8 in limited numbers, say, only 5 pc every 100 is allowed to run windows 8, that way malware writers will stick on writing programs targeting the win32 api, and presto! we have a secure windows version.

employee who 'inaccurate and uninformed' (4, Insightful)

hibernia (35746) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071462)

and no longer has a job

Re:employee who 'inaccurate and uninformed' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071596)

I'd fire the idiot too if he spouted off non-sense that can be taken as representing the opinion of the company. Whether he was right or not. (And he wasn't).

Mistaken is the Official Rebuttal not the comment (1)

viraltus (1102365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071468)

They gave official publicity to the comment... No duh! Now they need an unofficial rebuttal to the official rebuttal so they don't look stupid.... er... wait a minute.

Hello Streisand (3, Insightful)

je ne sais quoi (987177) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071474)

Well, considering that I had no idea what that guy said until I read it here, I'd say MS is putting more fuel on the fire by saying that. Would it have ended up on slashdot even if MS hadn't issued the denial? Maybe, but by denying it, it ensured it ended up on slashdot. In any case, this guy has the title, "partner group manager" which sounds like not only is he a manager but, suspiciously, in marketing too. It is funny though that MS periodically has these guys go off the reservation [slashdot.org] and start spouting not tactful, but perhaps true comments.

But anyway, considering that Apple has put a huge amount of effort into streamlining their OS and making it more responsive to the user, just in general I think that's a good thing to emulate in your OS. For example, I can remember waiting on 10.0 and 10.1 for what seemed like eternities for the spinning beach ball to quit but that's gotten a lot better with recent releases. (Don't get me started on if you were trying to log onto an ftp server that wasn't responding.)

Re:Hello Streisand (2, Insightful)

bruno.fatia (989391) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071644)

Well, considering that I had no idea what that guy said until I read it here, I'd say MS is putting more fuel on the fire by saying that. Would it have ended up on slashdot even if MS hadn't issued the denial? Maybe, but by denying it, it ensured it ended up on slashdot.

Who said Microsoft cares about whats on slashdot front page? Nothing really "good" from Microsoft is likely going to be news here anyways.

If this is true... (0, Troll)

sitarlo (792966) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071476)

Then they did a terrible job copying OSX. Windows 7 is still clunky, slow, and unstable. It's nothing like OSX at all.

Re:If this is true... (2, Informative)

kannibal_klown (531544) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071514)

Then they did a terrible job copying OSX. Windows 7 is still clunky, slow, and unstable. It's nothing like OSX at all.

I threw Win7 onto my MacBook Pro via BootCamp for work reasons and it's running fine. Heck, I even managed to get the 64-bit version running on it without any issues.

I've had no crashes and it feels a little speedier than Vista. So far it's looking like it's not a bad release.

Now I don't get the OSX and Win7 comparison, they don't look that much alike.

Re:If this is true... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071554)

You don't know how to use it properly then...

I am no Windows fan, I have Snow Leopard, Windows 7, XP and Linux (Suse, RedHat, CentOS and unbreakable Linux) all on differing machines...
All in all, Windows 7 has been stable as a rock on my machine...no problems to report apart from lacking Samsung Scanner Drivers...not MS' fault.

This is not like OS X! (5, Funny)

zebslash (1107957) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071490)

Microsoft has issued an official rebuttal: "We never used OS X as a source of inspiration in the design of Windows 7. This is completely uninformed. We used KDE 4 instead".

Ideas don't occur in a vacuum (3, Insightful)

Interoperable (1651953) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071506)

Apple has a lot of good ideas that Windows and Linux copy. Likewise, Windows and Linux generate a lot of good ideas that the other two copy. It's not surprising that Windows is mimicking some OSX features (and it obviously is). It would just be nice if Microsoft and Apple stopped getting patents on every damned thing (sudo) and acknowledged that other can have good ideas. Personally, I think Windows would do better to take pages from the KDE book, but maybe that's just personal taste.

Should've named it Vista7 or Vista-II instead.. (1)

jkrise (535370) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071534)

Weve taken everything thats good about Vista, along with the core infrastructure of the operating system, and weve made it faster and slimmed down the code to make it more effective.

Weve also tried to listen to what customers want in terms of a much slicker user interface and the ability to engage with it far more intuitively. Thats the product that were delivering.

Why are the reviews saying 7 is completely different to Vista, and will be a success? I can only see more disaster for MS. I checked with a few retail outlets in India; and the feedback is that customers are removing 7 andloading Pirated XP instead. I feel this means Corporates will 'up'grade 7 to XP for the time being then.

Re:Should've named it Vista7 or Vista-II instead.. (1)

smitty777 (1612557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071658)

Not sure about that. I think they're trying to distance themselves from Vista. I do agree with you in concept, tho.

Re:Should've named it Vista7 or Vista-II instead.. (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071860)

Because the reality is, after a while Vista really wasn't all that bad.

I ran it for just over a year before 7 came out without a single flaw whatsoever. Vistas biggest problem was it was pretty crappy in it's earlier days and it never really managed to shake off that image.

I guess the situation in your area isn't representative, because Windows 7 adoption is currently well above Vista adoption.

Windows 7 has certainly been rather successful so far and it seems to have a much better public image than Vista earmed from it's crappy earlier releases.

That was close (1)

lyinhart (1352173) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071540)

Bad choice of words by the Microsoft guy - definitely spoken like someone who wasn't directly involved in the product's development. It's like he'd never heard of Apple v. Microsoft [wikipedia.org].

Linux users (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071556)

Are butt hurt that they cant /dev/null their /etc/fstab

Paging Mr. Balmer (1)

m0s3m8n (1335861) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071578)

From the MS intercom system... "Paging Mr. Balmer. Your expertise is needed in HR for some water boarding! And bring a chair too."

Defenseable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071586)

Sounds to me like the "Liar, liar, pants on fire defense"

I agree with MS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071630)

Apple still has a fraction of the virus, or the hassles that Windows 7 has. Heck, it would cost too much money for Windows to even approach OSX in ease or security. So at this time, MS simply is copying their earlier versions; more of the same.

Bad Analogy (courtesy MS) (1)

smitty777 (1612557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071632)

FTA: "When the sun is shining there’s no incentive to change the roof on your house. It’s only when its raining that you realise there’s a problem."

Ahem....um...so I guess by rain, you mean some sort of Katrina like attention getter? Sheesh...

Look and Feel (2, Interesting)

Adrian Lopez (2615) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071734)

Considering Apple's litigious nature and the fact that it once sued Microsoft for allegedly infringing on the MacOS "look and feel", I can easily see why Microsoft would want to distance itself from this guy's statements. Apple has always wanted to have exclusive rights over Mac-like graphical interfaces, damn the negative consequences to the rest of the industry.

This guy's statements are fodder for Apple's bloodthirsty lawyers. Should it turn out he's lying about Microsoft's intentions, firing him would seem to be the best course of action.

"built on that very stable core Vista technology" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071750)

From the article: "it’s built on that very stable core Vista technology, which is far more stable than the current Mac platform, for instance."

Apple's development model, for years, has been to perpetually tweak and improve on their existing operating system code. Not to mention it's Unix, which has been around since the dinosaurs. He even says in the article that XP was completely rebuilt for Vista, which was then gutted again for this new Vista2. He wants to talk about stability? Why am I surprised?

M$, You Stupid Fools (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071814)

Deny, deny, deny... it doesn't change the fact that M$ ripped most of its UI improvements directly from OS/X. Imagine if someone did that to M$... you'd be sued into oblivion. M$ you suck.

Someone got called out (2, Insightful)

onyxruby (118189) | more than 4 years ago | (#30071912)

So some clueless employee in a company of tens of thousands of employees made a comment on the record. If this was an employee on one of the design teams, and it was a comment in an email to their manager and said email leaked, there would be a story and a lawsuit. However it wasn't, it just happened to be conjecture by someone that pulled their comment out of their ass.

The employee should have known better to make such a comment to begin with and is likely now /very/ aware of Microsoft's press policy.

What the employee did was no different from a factory worker for Ford that spends their day driving new cars into the parking lot making a comment about the design inspiration for the F-150. To be frank, I'll be surprised if the employee doesn't get fired, they certainly have cause.

If you believe in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30071962)

evolution. Then the chances of a random chain of events leading to Windows 7 looking like OS X is possible. It might even be the only explanation.

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