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Samsung Sponsors the Development of Enlightenment

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the don't-forget-who-pays-for-your-mantra dept.

Enlightenment 199

An anonymous reader writes "The Enlightenment window manager project has shared on its website that it now has the backing of a major (top-five) electronics manufacturer that will be actively sponsoring the project and using Enlightenment on its devices. No manufacturer was named, but Phoronix has dug deeper and found out that Samsung is sponsoring Enlightenment. Phoronix provides independent confirmation along with citing a new Enlightenment program that Samsung sponsored and then released under the LGPL-3. They also have videos of some of the new work to this window manager that Samsung funded."

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Wow! (4, Funny)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146708)

Samsung Sponsors the Development of Enlightenment

That's pretty ambitious. ;-)

So, a Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor, and says "make me one with everything". :-P

Cheers

Re:Wow! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147104)

Samsung Sponsors the Development of Enlightenment

That's pretty ambitious. ;-)

So, a Buddhist walks up to a hot dog vendor, and says "make me one with everything". :-P

Cheers

The vendor hands him a fully loaded hot dog, and the Buddhist hands him a $20.
After a few moments, the Buddhist asks for his change, and the hot dog vendor replies, "change must come from within".

Re:Wow! (1)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147298)

Bravo, sir.

Cheers

Re:Wow! (5, Funny)

roystgnr (4015) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147436)

That's pretty ambitious.

No, no, Samsung isn't funding an attempt to develop the attainment of a blessed state in which their customers can transcend desire and suffering and achieve Nirvana. That would be nearly impossible.

Samsung is funding an attempt to develop for their customers a completed version of the Enlightenment Window Manager. That will be completely impossible.

Hey Obamaheads, how's it going? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147474)

Is Gitmo closed? How's that warrantless wiretapping thing going? Is the NSA still eavesdropping on your 1-900 calls? How's the stimulus package working out for you? What's that? China is making all of the wind turbines for T Boone Pickens' wind farm project? Stimulus money went to nonexistent congressional districts? How about lobbyists being banned from the White House, and from the administration altogether? How's that working out for you?

Re:Hey Obamaheads, how's it going? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147698)

Great! :-D

Re:Hey Obamaheads, how's it going? (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147714)

Offtopic for sure, but I absolutely fucking LOVE how ol' Booney Boy and his "plan" disappeared when oil prices went LOL.

Oil prices were ridiculous. He came on TV and announced how he would be talking to us about his plan over the coming months.

We got 1 follow up commercial to that, a vague introduction to his plan.

Then oil prices started to return, and I haven't heard a peep out of Pickens since.

Re:Wow! (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147570)

Meh. Waterfall projects. Samsara with its continual release cycles is much more agile.

Re:Wow! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147664)

Meh. Waterfall projects. Samsara with its continual release cycles is much more agile.

The waterfall is truly agile, and finds its own path.

There is only one true release from Samsara, all the rest is just suffering.

Seems Obvious (3, Insightful)

Deliveranc3 (629997) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146750)

Samsung is awesome, so is enlightenment.

It's like Fluxbox in terms of resource use (and unfortunately on flashy little GUI indicators) but looks amazing!

Kudos on this! Let's get windows management handled! It's been so many years of updates on something that should have been handled by now!

Re:Seems Obvious (3, Informative)

cptnapalm (120276) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146870)

Enlightenment is not Awesome.

Awesome [naquadah.org] is awesome.

Re:Seems Obvious (4, Insightful)

junglee_iitk (651040) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146880)

Lets hope that Samsung manages to get e17 out of door in 2010.

Wow, I was trying it out 5 years ago and it still hasn't seen a release.

Re:Seems Obvious (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30146926)

Enlightenment was awesome about 10 years ago, when it was streets ahead of every other desktop in terms of looks. Unfortunately, it has been in alpha since then, so I'm afraid, in my opinion, it has missed the boat. Pity.

Re:Seems Obvious (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147438)

If by "looks" you mean utterly tasteless themes based on The Matrix movies, sure.

Re:Seems Obvious (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147728)

When I built a new computer for my brother (who was on the same shitty rig for like 6 years) I was finally able to get rid of his Matrix green numbers screen saver.

Re:Seems Obvious (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148300)

What, is it "geek-cool" to not like the Matrix now, or something?

Re:Seems Obvious (1)

PeterKraus (1244558) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147748)

Some of them are ugly, but some are quite decent. Try having a look at http://exchange.enlightenment.org/ [enlightenment.org]

Re:Seems Obvious (1)

PeterKraus (1244558) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147732)

Well, E is indeed very configurable. Openbox can't be configured as much in some things (eg size of a window opening on a given place on a given desktop - maybe that changed since september), Fluxbox offers about the same amount of configurability, but lacks "widgets" - shelves etc.

I've recently tried KDE 4.3.3 and went back to E after a couple of days. E gives you complete control over your windows, over maximize behaviour, over edge actions, combination of mouse drag + edge action, or mouse + keyboard shortcuts - something KDE doesn't have!

Also, the feature which makes it or breaks it for me most of the time is the pager displaying urgent hint on windows which have it - such as pidgin/xchat on a new message. Primarily lack of this equivalent drove me back to E.

And the themes are not that bad either...

Obvious for netbooks (1)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148324)

Samsung is awesome, so is enlightenment.

It's like Fluxbox in terms of resource use (and unfortunately on flashy little GUI indicators) but looks amazing!

Kudos on this! Let's get windows management handled! It's been so many years of updates on something that should have been handled by now!

I've been using Compiz on my desktop the last few months, and the jury is still out. On the netbook, I went all the way back to FVWM just for the speed. The crystal theme is not bad and even the basic FVWM can be pimped out, within limits. I used Enlightenment for years, so this is great news. It is time to take a look at it again.

LGPL-3? (3, Insightful)

Kartoffel (30238) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146760)

Enlightment is BSD licensed. You can't just change it to LGPL-3.

Re:LGPL-3? (2, Informative)

mmkkbb (816035) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146792)

The copyright holders can change the license to new releases however they want.

Re:LGPL-3? (3, Informative)

Kartoffel (30238) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147076)

That is true. However, Samsung != the copyright holders. Samsung could, however, fork it and create their own thing, which would not be the same as Samsung developing the original unforked e.

Re:LGPL-3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147248)

That is true. However, Samsung != the copyright holders. Samsung could, however, fork it and create their own thing, which would not be the same as Samsung developing the original unforked e.

Yeah, it's not the same cuz it'd have a different name. Boo hoo, cry me a river.

Re:LGPL-3? (3, Insightful)

Minwee (522556) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147328)

Samsung could, of course, hand over a fist full of dollars to the copyright holders [phoronix.com] and walk away with a copy of the code under whatever license they ask for.

Or maybe I'm just making this up.

Re:LGPL-3? (2, Insightful)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147686)

But Samsung is not the copyright holders. They can release a LGPL fork, but they cannot touch the license on the original trunk.

Re:LGPL-3? (2, Informative)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146812)

Enlightment is BSD licensed. You can't just change it to LGPL-3.

Actually, being BSD licensed, you can release a fork under a new license I believe since BSD is a permissive license.

The reverse, however, would not be true.

Cheers

Re:LGPL-3? (5, Informative)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146850)

Actually, being BSD licensed, you can release a fork under a new license I believe since BSD is a permissive license.

The reverse, however, would not be true.

What you believe is wrong. The BSD doesn't let you change the license terms of the source code at your will. You must have permission from the copyright holder(s) to do so.

Re:LGPL-3? (4, Informative)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146864)

To further add you may be confusing this with the fact that you can include BSD code inside other code that is licensed under another license, but this doesn't change the license that the BSD code is under.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146974)

To further add you may be confusing this with the fact that you can include BSD code inside other code that is licensed under another license, but this doesn't change the license that the BSD code is under.

Which, other than the need for attribution, doesn't really restrict you much.

But, yes, one occasionally forgets that Slashdot is well populated with semanticists and nit-pickers. ;-)

Cheers

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147152)

Which, other than the need for attribution, doesn't really restrict you much.

Sure it doesn't. But it doesn't allow you to relicense the code under something else without the permission of the copyright holder.

But, yes, one occasionally forgets that Slashdot is well populated with semanticists and nit-pickers. ;-)

What nitpicking? You claimed one can fork BSD code and change the code's license. That's wrong.

Re:LGPL-3? (1, Informative)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147274)

What nitpicking? You claimed one can fork BSD code and change the code's license. That's wrong.

From wikipedia [wikipedia.org] ...

The BSD License allows proprietary use, and for the software released under the license to be incorporated into proprietary products. Works based on the material may be released under a proprietary license or as closed source software.

Short of getting into a pointless pissing match to sort out all of the minor semantic differences between what we've both said, it's effectively something you can essentially change the license of by only including the statement that it contains some BSD code. Or at least, you can release your software under any license you choose even if it includes BSD code.

You yourself have pointed out several times in this thread that you can do this. The nit-picking is identifying every little way in which one is ever so slightly is semantically different from the other.

Essentially, we're belaboring the point and not really adding much.

Cheers

Re:LGPL-3? (2, Informative)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147396)

Short of getting into a pointless pissing match to sort out all of the minor semantic differences between what we've both said, it's effectively something you can essentially change the license of by only including the statement that it contains some BSD code. Or at least, you can release your software under any license you choose even if it includes BSD code.

There is no minor semantic difference. You just have poor reading comprehension. What that statement is saying is that you can create derived works using BSD license code and release the program as a whole under a proprietary license. But the license to the BSD code is still covered under the BSD license.

You yourself have pointed out several times in this thread that you can do this. The nit-picking is identifying every little way in which one is ever so slightly is semantically different from the other.

I've pointed out that one can create works using BSD code and release that under a different license. But this isn't the same as saying you can relicense BSD code at your will. There is a major difference between the two.

Re:LGPL-3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147676)

Take the medication like they told you to and you won't look like an autistic jackass.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148076)

That's doesn't really add up. Adding an additional license is not a semantic difference - it's a completely different activity than changing the original license. You can release your code under LGPL, but the referenced code will /still/ be BSD .

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

Late Adopter (1492849) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148136)

What nitpicking? You claimed one can fork BSD code and change the code's license. That's wrong.

It's effectively the same thing. You can release a "derivative work" that contains an extra newline at the end and release it under a different license. But the original will still be available, so nobody does that.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

sexconker (1179573) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147756)

But, yes, one occasionally forgets that Slashdot is well-populated by semanticists and nit-pickers.

Cheers.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

noidentity (188756) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147118)

Replying to clear "overrated" moderation my fucking browser selected instead of "informative" which I selected (after selection, I hit page down, but apparently the popup was selected and thus it chose the last one, without me realizing it). Sorry. Argh.

Re:LGPL-3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147780)

Next time post anon. Some idiots mod down "posted to undo mod" comments.

Re:LGPL-3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147144)

Oh, well, gee, they have to credit the original authors in comments in the source code, binaries, and in some types of sales literature. Yeah, I can see how that's a burden.

Re:LGPL-3? (3, Insightful)

yet-another-lobbyist (1276848) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146844)

I think he means that the new program (=application) that Samsung created was LGPL-3 licensed (and not Enlightenment itself). Shouldn't that be possible despite Enlightenment being BSD licensed?

Re:LGPL-3? (2, Informative)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146902)

Sure you can include BSD code in an LGPL application. BSD is perfectly compatible with the GPL and LGPL.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147262)

If you can take BSD code and re-release it under a proprietary license(as many companies have done), you can take BSD code and re-release it under LGPL-3.

Re:LGPL-3? (1)

redstar427 (81679) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148260)

Enlightment is BSD licensed. You can't just change it to LGPL-3.

Sure I can. I can use my text editor, remove all the BSD License words, and paste in the other license.
Done! See?

The new tool just released is quite promising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30146762)

Unfortunately it has a really weird name, but it seems to be a flash-like tool to make programming UI's with cool transitions and other effects quite easily. Getting a copy of the svn now to try it out, but the videos on youtube are showing the enlightenment libraries to be quite awesome.

Scooped (5, Funny)

d34dluk3 (1659991) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146776)

Enlightenment already developed by Rousseau, Diderot, and Voltaire, among others.

v2.0? (3, Insightful)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146798)

This can only be considered a good thing - another well funded GUI to go against Gnome, KDE & XCFE. Myself I have been looking over OpenGEU for a while (even ran it for a week) and while I really like some of the features it's not ready for prime time. I partially blame the integration of GTK pieces into Enlightenment but I feel that is a necessity at this moment. If funding from Samsung can improve Enlightenment to where it has a stable, 100% native suite then only good things can happen.

Re:v2.0? (2, Funny)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146888)

Yes it's true that Linux's greatest failing was it didn't have enough DEs!

Re:v2.0? (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146982)

Yes it's true that Linux's greatest failing was it didn't have enough GOOD, WELL DEVELOPED DEs!

There. Fixed that for you.

Seriously. Beyond Gnome, KDE & XCFE what is another well polished DE with all the bells & whistles that a modern distro is expected to have?

Re:v2.0? (0, Redundant)

Disgruntled Goats (1635745) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147124)

So basically you attempted to contradict my statement with your first line and then backed it up with the second. Yes, cause 3 DEs is clearly insufficient! Linux is only being held back from stealing all of Microsoft's market share because it only has 3 DEs to choose from! Clearly if it had had 15 by now it would already be the winner!

Re:v2.0? (1, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147572)

Enlightenment is a much lighter DE. I don't think it is going to compete with KDE or Gnome for Desktop mind share. I see it as ending up on mobile devices and maybe netbooks. Also Enlightenment is very NeXT/OSX in look. Linux is right now starting to look like it will big in the Mobile market. Android, WebOS, and Maemo are gaining a lot of ground while WinMo is loosing ground.
Linux can never be the winner. Linux is an option and the users are the winners.

Re:v2.0? (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147726)

He's agreeing with you. The "good, well-developed" thing was a qualification of your statement. Although putting it in a FTFY did come across as a bit hostile.

PS: I also agree with you both.

Re:v2.0? (1)

the_womble (580291) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147026)

What do you mean by "100% native suite" and why does it matter?

I always use some KDE/QT apps with XFCE and I used to use some Gtk apps with KDE.

Re:v2.0? (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147498)

By 100% native suite I mean things like network manager, file manager, media player, menu, and battery gauge

Re:v2.0? (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147538)

Whoops - I meant to add that I use a number of GTK apps on my KDE system as well - notably Thunderbird and Open Office.

Re:v2.0? (1)

bzipitidoo (647217) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148228)

This is good news. I'm always looking around for faster desktop environments. Enlightenment is one I keep occasional tabs on. Also Equinox and LXDE. And plain old windows managers too, such as JWM, IceWM, and Fluxbox. The Wikipedia list of these is handy.

XFCE feels bloated and slow, but they brag that they're faster than Gnome or KDE. Just looking at XFCE's memory consumption was depressing. And who wants animation when slow screen repaints provide plenty of eye candy? One thing that makes XFCE so confounded slow, especially on older hardware, is dynamic font antialiasing and hinting. Turn that off and XFCE is noticeably faster. Of course then text looks awful, but this can be worked around by switching fonts. Trouble with that is the only font I have found that looks decent without antialiasing and hinting is the fixed monospace ones.

E17 is pretty stable now (5, Informative)

jlowe (907739) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146806)

While news on the site may have been sparse, quite a lot of work has been going on with E17 development. The developers had released a roadmap showing that perhaps it would be ready for a Christmas release. While I doubt that milestone will be achieved, it has made significant progress.

I've been using it for months as my desktop at home and on my laptop. It is quite usable and I've had zero crashes for a while now. Rasterman has always had a focus on small-screen devices, so this development doesn't surprise me. But if you haven't checked it out in a while, you should.

Re:E17 is pretty stable now (3, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147260)

The developers had released a roadmap showing that perhaps it would be ready for a Christmas release.

Did they mention the year? Or at least the decade?

I remember waiting for E17. That was about two years before I switched to OS X, so it must be what, five years now?

Re:E17 is pretty stable now (3, Informative)

jlowe (907739) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147516)

I will not argue that it's been a long time. I've been waiting a long time, too. I gave up on it years ago before recently trying again due to some positive things I was hearing.

But I follow the commits pretty regularly, and many of the component software and libraries are reaching a 1.0 and mature status. They have a very clear roadmap to reach a stable release. As I said, I'm not saying they will make a Christmas release. But to go from years of, "it will be done when it's done" to "possibly release by Christmas," that's a pretty major shift in thinking.

But I'm not taking the developers' word for it, nor should you take mine. Try it out. I think you will be impressed with the progress. It truly is already in a workable state for day-to-day use.

Re:E17 is pretty stable now (1)

failedlogic (627314) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148358)

I remember several years ago, Rasterman had posted on his personal website that he was working on E17 to work with mobile phones and had a picture of his own phone running some version or semblance of E17. All I know is if this phone works out pretty well in the next 2 years, my next phone is going to be running E17. The interface I'm sure is going to be fun to use.

Excellent! (4, Funny)

Jerrry (43027) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146866)

Now maybe we'll see the final release of E17 before the 22nd century. Who knows, it may even come out before Duke Nukem Forever.

Re:Excellent! (4, Funny)

kwiqsilver (585008) | more than 4 years ago | (#30146948)

Now maybe we'll see the final release of E17 before the 22nd century. Who knows, it may even come out before Duke Nukem Forever.
I'm sure the first thing Rasterman will do with this new funding is begin a complete rewrite of e from scratch. So once Mitsubishi starts sponsoring Duke Nukem, it'll be a tight race.

Re:Excellent! (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148056)

Now maybe we'll see the final release of E17 before the 22nd century. Who knows, it may even come out before Duke Nukem Forever. I'm sure the first thing Rasterman will do with this new funding is begin a complete rewrite of e from scratch. So once Mitsubishi starts sponsoring Duke Nukem, it'll be a tight race.

The people who've modded you "funny" have obviously never followed Enlightenment's development. If they had, your mods would've been "insightful".

Re:Excellent! (3, Funny)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147288)

First they would have to re-implement Duke Nukem Forever. From scratch. DNF has always been the main dependency of Enlightenment. Remember when Rasterman ditched his entire EVAS library and starter again? It coincided with DNF's switch from the Quake engine to Unreal Engine. Every setback in E17's development has coincided with similar setbacks in DNF.

Re:Excellent! (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147670)

I suppose thats all dependant on whether E17 will come out at all.

Duke Nukem Forever will never come out.

You DO know the Development team at 3D Realms [3drealms.com] got sacked for not producing a game, right?

Re:Excellent! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30148222)

Maybe instead of sponsoring the Development of Enlightenment they should focus on fixing my mother fucking big screen which is something I actually care about.

I've always liked enlightenment. (4, Insightful)

QJimbo (779370) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147020)

I used it back in the days of SuSE 6.3 and really liked it then. It had the most eye candy and "slickness" at the time (1999 or so), blowing other WMs and Win98 out the water, I mean who couldn't love the semi-transparent "eTerm" windows?

Other WMs have caught up now with the eye candy, but enlightenment is and was one of the few window managers that actually displayed innovation instead of simply tailing after windows and mac. It's nice to see it getting recognition.

Re:I've always liked enlightenment. (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147150)

Haven't used it in years now, but was quite fond of it back in the day. Congrats, Rasterman!

Re:I've always liked enlightenment. (2, Insightful)

six11 (579) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147314)

I last used enlightenment in like 1998 or so, and always felt like it excelled in gratuitous eye candy and infinite customization, but lacked in usability. But I always respected how Raster was willing to try new and sometimes completely wonky things, because that is how interesting interaction is developed.

But I just tried it again, and was underwhelmed (with E16). It is entirely possible that I am just grumpy in my old age, or I'm no longer in the target audience.

Re:I've always liked enlightenment. (1)

jlowe (907739) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147550)

E16 is way way way outdated. Sure, some bugfixes are still provided, but it is not evolving. You need to give e17 a try. Either from svn (tutorials are around for most distros) or try a snapshot.

Videos show (2, Interesting)

gr8_phk (621180) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147126)

The linked videos show that E17 has some nice rotations going on. Then they try to do some 3D effects and it's apparent that they're only doing affine transformations, so the perspective texture mapping is wrong on the 3D stuff. It feels so much like 1992. Didn't they learn anything from ID? There are even simpler ways to get the perspective right for large polys too.

Kill the X Boondoggle Already (-1, Troll)

lobiusmoop (305328) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147134)

X is an over-engineered monstrous relic from the mid-80's [art.net] , and the window-managers on top of it are lipstick-on-a-pig kludges. Hopefully Google will present something to potentially replace it with when they announce their Chrome OS [blogspot.com] tomorrow.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

dvlhrns (1681218) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147206)

Chrome is not gonna kill or replace X so until a new server comes along we are stuck with it

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (4, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147230)

Funny how this argument mostly comes from people who know virtually nothing about X. Most importantly, not the difference between the concept, the protocol and the implementation.

And just because it's 20 years old doesn't mean it sucks. How old is TCP/IP? The mouse? The binary system?

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147334)

Unfortunately for Linux users, we tend to listen to idiots like lobiusmoop FAR too often. Instead of keeping code that works and improving it, we end up throwing it away and starting from scratch. That is what causes situations like the OSS/ALSA/PulseAudio mess. So far we have mostly managed to ignore the morons calling for the death of X, hopefully that will continue.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (2, Interesting)

neiras (723124) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148168)

Instead of keeping code that works and improving it, we end up throwing it away and starting from scratch. That is what causes situations like the OSS/ALSA/PulseAudio mess. So far we have mostly managed to ignore the morons calling for the death of X, hopefully that will continue.

So far we have mostly managed to ignore the morons calling for the death of PulseAudio, hopefully that will continue as well.

Pulse is new code, not a rewrite of anything. Yes, ESD was a sound server too, but the similarity ends there.

Many of PulseAudio's problems are caused by "iffy" stuff in ALSA drivers, and the ALSA folks are working to fix the bugs Pulse exposes. Many more are caused by distro people making questionable decisions on how to set it up (see Ubuntu/rtkit).

I'm sure glad that PA isn't going anywhere, despite all the uninformed hate flying around.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148178)

Too late. [blogspot.com]

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147424)

You're right about that.
I think what happens is they use a package manager to install every available bit of xorg when a given machine will need perhaps 10% of it. Also people who use GUIs for everything will tend to see a lot of bloat and unresponsiveness. But for those of us who know what we're doing, X is still pretty cool.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147712)

But for those of us who know what we're doing, X is still pretty cool.

Hmm. That sounds like computers from quite a while ago. That sounds like one of the main reasons people use Windows (you don't have to know what you're doing and edit a bunch of configuration files to get it working properly). It doesn't even sound like your sig - "FreeBSD Just Works for me."

If I can't install X easily and have it run relatively efficiently without bloat and unresponsiveness, then X - or the package manager - needs to be fixed. Being too complex/customizeable and making people waste time trying to configure it properly are issues that need to be addressed. Most computer users are just that - computer users, not computer configurators. Or whatever. hehe.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147818)

You misunderstand -- X is not the culprit. Personally I really don't care if people want to use windows or mac, unless I'm the support person. And I really don't care much about the opinions of perpetual neophyte users (not saying you are one, just that most "end users" are) about FOSS "useability". I use xmonad on FreeBSD and I'm quite happy with it. For me FBSD and Debian really do Just Work. People who need a DE to dumb down their machine for them have problems with bloat and bugginess whether they choose windows, mac, linux, or even *bsd. That always has and aways will be true.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147688)

UNIX in general? (With Linux effectively being a re-implementation of UNIX.)

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147696)

I have worked with X and I would love to hear what makes it great. I will agree that current implementations seem to leave a lot to be desired but how much of that is because of the actual design and how much is because of poor programing?
What makes X better than say Quartz? Or the current Windows graphics systems? I like most programers these days just us GTK or QT for our apps.
So for the average users what makes X the best besides the large amount of existing software running on it? I honestly wonder just how much of that we would loose if x was replaced as long as you ported GTK and QT to the new display system. For the hard core apps you could just run x on top of the new system like Apple does.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30148180)

By the time as you write something NEW that can do all of what X does *today*, people named "LWATCDR55" will chime up and say that it "sucks and should be replaced with something better". We should stick to what we have and address it's shortcomings, rather than throw out millions of lines of proven, working code, in order to meet some undefined goal of being "better than what Apple does".

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

GaryOlson (737642) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147900)

Well, since values for the binary system can include 0 or 1
and the binary system has existed for a finite period of time, the value cannot be 0,
therefore the age of the binary system is 1.

Now we just have to determine a proper unit of measure for 1.

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30148150)

I have a really new computer, I'm sure it doesn't use the binary system anymore. Or TCPIP, whatever that is. I just use Facebook.

At least it's not from the 70s (1)

Lemming Mark (849014) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147408)

Chrome OS is based on technology with strong roots in the 70s, i.e. Unix and C. Moreover, the creators of Unix went on to create a new OS (Plan 9) to solve its problems and, recently, a new programming language (Go). Both Unix and C have been able to remain strong over time and add modern features whilst staying true to their roots and, broadly, retaining compatibility. This is particularly true for Unix, despite some questionable design decisions along the way.

The link you supplied is from the Unix-haters handbook, which basically argues that the entire Unix + X11 stack is a load of rubbish - I think that's a more consistent position than just wanting X replaced. To be honest I've never seen a strong explanation of why it's OK to keep developing Linux and BSD but that X should be ripped out and replaced, other than perhaps that X has languished due to lack of maintenance and management over a long period of time. But I think X.org has shown some reasonable signs of revival and more modern features.

Ironically, recent developments in X.org make replacement servers more viable than they have been before - lots of X.org infrastructure (kernel mode setting, GEM, plus others) have separated a load of the hardware support issues from the windowing system itself. Wayland seems to be the main example at the moment: https://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server/web/frequently-askeds-questions [google.com]

Re:At least it's not from the 70s (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147716)

xorg uses hal and dbus for hardware configuration, also. If Intel would release drivers for my video card, xorg would have no problems autodetecting and configuring it.

2001 called.. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147460)

It wants its anti-networked display server argument back..

Re:Kill the X Boondoggle Already (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147758)

Well, the title of your article is "How to make your 50-MIPS Workstation Run Like a 4.77MHz IBM PC"

Since the CPU in my laptop is rated at over 4000 Vax MIPS, I'll happily throw 1-2% of that away to get the benefits of proven software. Most of the time one or the other of the cores is close to zero utilization anyway.

What I'd like to see is simpler security setup (without sacrificing features or security of course). That's when you say "there has to be an easier way". It's bad when tunneling a protocol through ssh is the *easy* way.

Very interesting (3, Interesting)

Lemming Mark (849014) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147156)

Enlightenment generally seems reckoned to be very nice technology. I've been repeatedly surprised to see Enlightenment popping up in commercial products here and there; Edje-based wallpapers can even be loaded in KDE now. Evidently it's a strong piece of work and it'll be really interesting to see where this sponsorship gets them. It certainly seems an enlightened approach.

Windowmaker and GNUstep (4, Informative)

argent (18001) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147168)

I wish someone would do the same with Windowmaker and GNUstep, but I suspect the licensing has closed off that path.

Re:Windowmaker and GNUstep (2, Interesting)

tweek (18111) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147236)

Wow. I haven't thought about WindowMaker for years. I always enjoyed that wm. If I could be arsed to tear myself away from the joy of openbox + tint2 + conky, I would ;)

summary (1)

rackeer (1607869) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147342)

Summary from TFA:
Samsung is sponsoring Enlightenment so that they can obviously deploy this lightweight and robust window manager on some of their mobile devices, but we do not yet have confirmation on what devices or when they may start surfacing... It sounds as though Samsung is still early on into their love affair with Enlightenment and that many more changes and work are still to come, which means that it may be some months before seeing any devices.
We also have been forwarded some YouTube videos of recent Enlightenment advancements (user-interface improvements) that have been made possible through this hardware company's sponsorship. The video demos are quite interesting and worth checking out.

Video here [youtube.com] .

Samsung sponsering Enlightenment., but ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147364)

Why, for the love of God, Why ? What's in this for Samsung ? Are they going to run Enlightenment on their mobile phones ? Their TV's ? What ?

Re:Samsung sponsering Enlightenment., but ... (2, Interesting)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147968)

``What's in this for Samsung ? Are they going to run Enlightenment on their mobile phones ? Their TV's ?''

Possibly. Mobile phones are actually powerful enough these days to get pretty much all the flashy eye candy stuff you might want, but Enlightenment is one of the few products that _both_ run on such "low-end" hardware and provide the eye candy.

Besides mobiles phones and TVs, though, Samsung may also be thinking about notebooks.

Re:Samsung sponsering Enlightenment., but ... (1)

lbalbalba (526209) | more than 4 years ago | (#30148238)

Cool. Looking forward to running Enlightenment on my Samsung microwave.

I love enlightenment (1)

logicassasin (318009) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147526)

In fact, the old Gnome/Enlightnement desktop paradigm is what originally convinced me to try Linux back in 2000 after hearing a bunch of "linux doesn't even have a desktop!" talk by coworkers. I tried it out and eventually learned that I could run with just Enlightenment and did that and never looked back. I've run AfterStep, Windowmaker, Black/Fluxbox, and a number of other WM's, but will always manage to come back to Enlightenment.

These days, when I bring up new linux installs, the number one task on my list is to get Enlightenment DR16 up and running if it wasn't installed by default.

Used E again recently.... (2, Interesting)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147802)

During my time on Fedora 11 I fell out of love with Gnome and switched over to KDE. During my transitional phase I played a bit with E. It was the window manager during the redhat 5.x days when I first started with Linux, and I was nostalgic to see how E had changed.

I liked E's speedy response. It's a lightweight WM without much bloat. Very quick and responsive load times.

On the other hand it needs updating. There's no support for compositing, and GL is software rendered. No acceleration. I'm a Blenderhead so this was not good. It doesn't have a good file manager. I found myself using MC whenever I was in E. No easy menu editing.

I very much would like to see E take it's place again as a viable desktop option. It has so much going for it, be clearly developer resources haven't been available like KDE and Gnome.

Re:Used E again recently.... (1)

Interoperable (1651953) | more than 4 years ago | (#30147974)

It's a lightweight WM without much bloat

There's no support for compositing

They may be related.

Some explain the Linux GUI thing? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30147830)

You have Window managers and desktops and whatnot. X-windows, gnome, enlightenment, etc. From my reading it seems x-windows and enlightenment do overlapping things. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what to use, there is no consistency to this area.

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