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EU About To Grant US Unlimited Access To Banking Data

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the not-too-swift dept.

Privacy 277

An anonymous reader points out a blog post reporting that on Monday The EU Council is set to give US intelligence services full access to SWIFT banking data, despite a unanimous call by the European Parliament not to do so. "The move of SWIFT the data server to Switzerland would be an excellent opportunity to stop the nearly unlimited access of US authorities on EU bank transactions. But EU justice and interior ministers are apparently keen [on agreeing to] a deal as soon as possible, on 30 November. Why 30 November? Because one day later, on 1 December 2009, the EU’s Lisbon Treaty will be in force and would allow the European Parliament to play a major role in the negotiations of the deal with the US. A deal one day before will be a slap in the face to democracy in the EU. ... [W]hile the US will be able to access EU banking data, no access to US banking data by EU [authorities] is being foreseen."

cancel ×

277 comments

Banking INternationally (1)

Globally Mobile (1635415) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246370)

Now while the privacy issue is an obvious one, are there also any sum +'s that will boost our banking in a better direction? Or is this just another way to leave a trail of breadcrumblies behind us?

Re:Banking INternationally (3, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246406)

Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?

It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back. Fuck yeah! [youtube.com]

Re:Banking INternationally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246526)

Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?

It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back. Fuck yeah! [youtube.com]

You may want to look into who provides a lot of the equipment, personnel and funding for U.N. and NATO peacekeeping forces. I think the US/EU relationship is pretty symbiotic. While the banking data probably won't be given to the EU, 'not giving back' is untrue.

Re:Banking INternationally (5, Informative)

Marcika (1003625) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246652)

Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?

It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back. Fuck yeah! [youtube.com]

You may want to look into who provides a lot of the equipment, personnel and funding for U.N. and NATO peacekeeping forces. I think the US/EU relationship is pretty symbiotic. While the banking data probably won't be given to the EU, 'not giving back' is untrue.

I've looked into it. From Wikipedia: "About 4.5% of the troops and civilian police deployed in UN peacekeeping missions come from the European Union and less than one percent from the United States (USA)." The ten biggest troop contributors by country are 8 developing countries, France and Italy. Regarding UN troop funding - the reluctance and tardiness of the US to pay its UN contributions is legendary, and they are currently $1.3bn in arrears [wikipedia.org] .

As to NATO troop contributions -- the US is making a lot of noise that the Europeans are not supporting their War of Terror "peacekeeping" missions in Iraq and Afghanistan enough; but they knew that they didn't have most EU countries' support when they set up to invade Iraq in the first place...

Re:Banking Internationally (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246702)

+5, Brutal Fact Correction Smackdown. Rock on, dude.

Re:Banking INternationally (2, Funny)

runyonave (1482739) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246904)

Someone mod Marcika's post up. Anyway good thing I live in canada. We don't have any of that US taking (spying/stealing) our information bull here.

Re:Banking INternationally (3, Insightful)

profplump (309017) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247010)

I love how Iraq and Afghanistan are the same place whenever talk about not having EU support comes up.

Re:Banking INternationally (2, Insightful)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246544)

This proves once again what a weak and undemocratic government the EU commission (not "council" btw.) really is.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246566)

It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back

Forcing? How? Gunpoint? Or is this just another convenient way for Europeans to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own government by pretending the US is "forcing" them?

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

kdemetter (965669) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246714)

What responsibility ? We never had any say in the European Constitution/Lisbon treaty
It's not fair to make us responsible for things we never voted for.

Re:Banking INternationally (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246800)

Hey, *we* did have our say! We said no. And then it happened anyway.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246852)

What responsibility ? We never had any say in the European Constitution/Lisbon treaty It's not fair to make us responsible for things we never voted for.

Well you didn't rise up in revolt, therefore you accept it \Sarcasm

Re:Banking INternationally (3, Funny)

PizzaAnalogyGuy (1684610) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246586)

This is exactly the reason we as Americans have to take the power back. If people keep treating us, we will answer back.

Let me give you an example.

Consider this situation. Your best online friend has just bought a new computer game. It is an online MMO. Now, as a true fan of MMO's, you're intrigued. You want to know how it's like. But to do that, your friend asks you to order a pizza for him. You say, okay, I'll order one for myself aswell. You type in "pizza for a gamer" to google and find out this great site about all kinds of information related to pizza baking, pizza toppings, pizza mayonnaises and chocolate ice cream desserts. Now because of your friend, you get hungry.

And you only get hungry for more. Before it was OK that you only ordered a normal sized pizza with a small cola. Then one day you notice that the pizza doesn't fill you as much as before. So you decide to order a family size pizza with a large mountain dew. You are happy again. Now because of your friend, even this isn't enough anymore. You know your online friend will be eating a pizza and you wont get any of it. You wont even see it. You dont know whats happening there. You want to be part of that pizza. So you go to the pizza place yourself, eat your own family sized hawaiian pan pizza with a large mountain dew bottle and some delicious ice cream and pancakes as a dessert.

Then you apply for a job at that pizza place. As your first delivery mission, you will deliver a pizza to your friend. You go over to his place and ring the doorbell. As he opens it, you throw the pizza at his face. He cant see anything now. He can only smell the delicious pizza that is on his face. Then you go and trash his place, smash his computer, burn his printer, throw his girlfriends music cd's on the wall and crack them to pieces. Then you take his new game and tell him that he should just had shown it to you to begin with, without demanding anything back.

The point here being, pizza does solve some things, but you still dont need to get aggressive and go mess on other peoples lands.

Re:Banking INternationally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246828)

Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?

Well, to be fair, the draft (http://www.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/SWIFT-Abkommen-2009-11-10.pdf) contains some passage concerning giving bank data from the US to the EU:

Article 9 (Cooperation with Future Equivalent EU System)

In the event that an EU system equivalent to the U.S. TFTP is implemented in the European Union or in one or more of its Member States that requires financial payment messaging data stored in the United States to be made available in the European Union, the U.S. Treasury Department shallactively pursue, on the basis of reciprocity and appropriate safeguards, the cooperation of anyrelevant international financial payment messaging service providers which are based in theterritory of the United States.

(page 17)

(TFTP = Terrorist Finance Tracking Programm)

But that is much to vague for my taste...

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

Arthur Grumbine (1086397) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246450)

I don't know about you, but [w]hen I do my banking, I [keep my transactions] as legal as possible, to avoid the attention of any auhtoirties.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246632)

What's legal today might be illegal tomorrow. You don't think you'll end up on a list because you did what was legal when it was? Because, ya know, you did it before when it was legal, you might be doing it still when it's illegal...

Re:Banking INternationally (4, Insightful)

Reziac (43301) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246636)

Why should we HAVE to worry about The Authorities overseeing our each and every transaction, as if we're all criminals until proven otherwise??

As someone here put it, "If I've done nothing wrong, WHY ARE YOU WATCHING ME??"

Re:Banking INternationally (5, Insightful)

kdemetter (965669) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246754)

Because it's not about doing wrong : it's about using fear as a means to control people.

Re:Banking INternationally (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246834)

If I've done nothing wrong, WHY ARE YOU WATCHING ME??

Cuz ur cute.

Re:Banking INternationally (2, Informative)

sherriw (794536) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247036)

Why should we HAVE to worry about The Authorities overseeing our each and every transaction, as if we're all criminals until proven otherwise??

I would reply at length to this comment... but Daniel J. Solove says it best in his essay:

"'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy" [ssrn.com]

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246734)

The big bad tax cheats and evil terrorists do the same thing.

A completely legit paper trail would still be of interest because of that.

If someone is trying too hard to follow the law they are obviously hiding something.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

Reikk (534266) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246634)

The United States saved Europe's ass during dubya dubya 2. A little banking info to stop the spread of terrorism isn't too much to ask.

Re:Banking INternationally (0, Offtopic)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246808)

It was actually the Russians who saved Europe during WW2. And they lost millions of people doing so. If USSR wouldn't had kept Germans from spreading and taking over the east, no one could had done anything to them anymore, and eventually they would had been strong enough to take over American continent too.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

Nathrael (1251426) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246946)

Without any doubt many Russians died for their country (or more accurately, were forced to die for their country), and they did indeed contribute to the defeat of the Nazis - *they* wouldn't have managed to do it by themselves, and remember, in the beginning, they were even allies. I'm not saying the Russians weren't necessary, but claiming that it was them who saved our asses is a gross exaggeration.

Oh, also, men lost != contribution to Germany's defeat.[/offtopic]

Re:Banking INternationally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30247016)

"Patriotism is not dying for your country, it's making the other poor son of a bitch die for his" - George Patton. The Russians would not have been able to stave off Germany without the aid of US industry - trucks, planes, etc from the US contributed to buying the time to allow General Winter to intervene.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247062)

I always wondered what would have happened if Hitler hadn't break the Treaty of Non-Aggression; although I don't know if they could it by and watch the USSR take over the eastern countries while they were tied down in the west.

Re:Banking INternationally (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246874)

The United States saved Europe's ass during dubya dubya 2.

Tell that to Russia. But even if true, it does little to justify the invasion of privacy.

Remember, remember... (2, Insightful)

Elbart (1233584) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246380)

If that's not a coup from above, I don't know what is.

Re:Remember, remember... (2, Insightful)

Carewolf (581105) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246774)

Ironically this will be used as an anti-EU story by the very same people who let it happen by rejecting the constitution last year. If the parliament had had this power last year, this wouldn't have happened. The people who complained that EU was not democratic enough, caused the EU remain that undemocratic, and rejected the attempts to improve it. At least, things will finally improve on tuesday.

Re:Remember, remember... (1)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246962)

Surprised? This is what the interior ministers came up with. Judging by what I see those jokers usually do, the job of interior minister seems to be to minimize citizen rights wherever possible, whether it serves any purpose or not.

Re:Remember, remember... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30247056)

Maybe in future Disney cartoons you'd have the Evil Interior Minister plotting behind the scenes, instead of the usual Grand Vizier or witch ;).

Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (4, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246384)

Wired money to Turkey? Terrorist.

Unexplainable transfers of cash into your account from $MUSLIM_STATE? Terrorist operative.

Bought floor tile from a man with the same surname as a well-known Taliban leader? Suspected terrorist.

etc.

I mean, I'm all for national security and sharing information but what is so lacking about the EU's ability to make and investigate the above claims?

Re:Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246548)

The cutest thing about this is the "sharing" is entirely one-way. It's like the extradition arrangements, where European politicians use weasel words about how "in practice" the same rules will apply for getting someone from the US into the EU as the other way around, even though the written conditions are clearly very different.

Given that the US government has proved over recent years to be probably the greatest threat to world stability, and about the least effective in terms of things like regulation of the financial sector, respect for privacy and civil liberties, and not going overboard any time the term "national security" is used, I don't understand why anyone, least of all the EU, is so keen to suck up so much. The era of the US being the world's only superpower is over and not coming back, the politicos just haven't realised yet.

Re:Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (-1, Troll)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246686)

Agreed, and that's why I support racial profiling.

Re:Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246884)

what is so lacking about the EU's ability to make and investigate the above claims?

The EU lacks the information. It is not allowed to spy on its own citizens (sound familiar?). How do you get information about your own citizens in spite of privacy protection laws? You let someone else do the dirty work, deflect all the blame and get the analyzed data back. Who cares that the structure and dynamics of the entire EU economy are presented to a foreign country as a "side effect"?

Re:Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (1)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246982)

What is so lacking? Spine AKA 'political will'. Muslim minorities are much larger and growing much faster in Europe than the US, and Europeans are afraid to poke much at them even legitimately or else be labelled 'reactionary bigots' or worse 'American lapdogs' not only by the muslims but also other Europeans who are too progressive to care about people bombing trains.

On the one had, you are completely right, a lot of wholly innocent people are going to be put through a wringer because they did something that might have the appearance of impropriety. That's bad. However, all that data is going to contain the operations of some malicious organizations. Using that data to disrupt and prosecute will have some benefit. It just remains to be seen whether this is a net positive or net negative. And with Europeans rolling over (like Spain, 'oh you bombed us? We give up! Withdraw everybody!') and ignoring problems for political reasons, they brought this invasion of privacy on themselves. This whole thing is probably happening because segments of the EU government secretly want the US to both fix things and take the blame too. It's win-win for them.

Let the downvoting begin.

democracy? (1)

twotailakitsune (1229480) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246392)

democracy? What is this democracy you say. I know about republic (for the good of the people; "for your own good"), but who has a democracy?

Re:democracy? (1)

srussia (884021) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246564)

democracy? What is this democracy you say. I know about republic (for the good of the people; "for your own good"), but who has a democracy?

Switzerland?

Re:democracy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246576)

We do. Representative democracy. Look it up.

Re:democracy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246688)

republic latin: A state 'of the people'
democracy greek: A state where 'the people' is ultimately the source of power.

So they mean the same in practise, like amber and electo it is just a matter of choice in ancient languages.

It is just me... (5, Insightful)

Apotekaren (904220) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246408)

... does the 30th of November sound like a great day to pull pranks like false fire-alarms and what-not to interfere with the deal? For once I my life I would condone civil disobedience, and for once it might even have an impact.

Re:It is just me... (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246462)

Yes, I can see jacking around with the electrical and communications systems to disrupt things being put into place.

A thought has been bubbling up from the back of my mind for the past twenty or so years and continues to grown steadily. I live in an extremely corrupt nation.

Good? (2, Interesting)

headkase (533448) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246410)

David Brin in his novel: Earth [wikipedia.org] had some backstory (which is not in that link) about a war on the "Gnomes". This was a war on secrecy in banking. The story went along the lines of it was a purging moment in human history, in secrecy evil hides. Purging the "Gnomes" stripped a great deal of power from the corrupted mechanisms of society. Now, with that said any information collected will be abused but this offers some perspective.

Re:Good? (4, Funny)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246514)

Well with the new shell ui I'd side with KDE too.

Re:Good? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246568)

If fictional or semifictional books offer credence to an argument, then any argument is won simply by the existence of many enough authors who agree with it.

Re:Good? (1)

Nathrael (1251426) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246972)

Doesn't stop people here from constantly citing 1984 (completely ignoring that the book wasn't that much about surveillance but socialism gone wrong, but that's not as convenient now, is it?) or Brave New World.

Re:Good? (1)

headkase (533448) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247052)

I'm actually promoting newspeak from 84. But with a key difference, the retention and accessibility of what came before. I believe we do need to constantly revise what we believe to remain relevant but I do not believe it should be centralized as that is despotism. Shameless plug, see my signature for a mechanism that would provide a neutral debating forum full of checks and balances to offset human nature. It is inspired from the real world, see the link to the values page, and I see it as a piece of the solution to rampant ignorance and corruption in our society. Slashdot almost gets there, but not quite, as a debating method.

Excellent and Relevant! (1)

headkase (533448) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246624)

Excellent! A little deeper digging has revealed: The Transparent Society [google.com] (Google Books, preview a bit online!) which is a non-fiction work by him, an author of the caliber of mind to successfully have made his predictions in Earth. It is summarized on this wiki page: Here [wikipedia.org] . Now I will admit that I have not read that particular work but I trust Brin as enough of an authority that I will assume its mostly good! Now I am going to have to go and peruse that text! ;)

MOST importantly the wiki page specifically mentions the war on the "Gnomes!" So The Transparent Society will cover the reasoning in non-fiction!

Re:Good? (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246748)

This isn't opening up bank records. This is just widening the circle of gnomes a little to include people who are probably worse than the current circle of gnomes.

Re:Good? (1)

headkase (533448) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246796)

It's part of the solution at least! You establish monitoring first then you chip away at it until neutral parties have access to the information. Everything is summed by what preceded it, if manipulated skillfully the advantages can be tipped in the favor of the public interest. All you need is debate and advocacy. Shameless plug, please see my sig.

Wanna know how his happend? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246412)

Hillary and her compadres met with the relevant officials over here and told them scare stories about how crucial a time it is for the western world and such bullshit.
None of our politicians have the balls to simply say f.o. and slam the door, no no, request to help spying on our own ppl granted - What could go wrong?

Pizza Analogy (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246414)

It's like if there was an American pizza, and European pizza, and the Americans got to have some of the European pizza, but no Europeans could have any of the American pizza, and, and, and.....well, dammit, I just want some pizza! Why do I have to explain it to a bunch of smelly asocial geeks? Fuck you all, I'm ordering a pizza and none of you can have any!

Re:Pizza Analogy (2, Funny)

Rhaban (987410) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246528)

Pizza is Italian.

There's no such thing as american pizza. Only american would-be pizza.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246574)

Wednesday said she made the American pizza with real Americans; she also made the European pizza exclusively from Italians, but you know she's such a purist douche.....

Re:Pizza Analogy (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246608)

I can get great american pizza at the IKEA restaurant, Pedro the waiter says Ngumbi learned how to make it in Argentina

Re:Pizza Analogy (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246660)

Pizza is Italian.

There's no such thing as american pizza. Only american would-be pizza.

From what I'm told, the common implementation of the recipe of 'pizza' is very American and is different in Italy ... Chicago-style pizza (or tomato pies) might be closer to Italian but from what I've heard, the two have diverged [wisegeek.com] .

Re:Pizza Analogy (0, Offtopic)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246700)

Thank you guys, now I have to go get a pizza.

Universal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246664)

But the whooshing sound as a joke goes over someone's head is universal.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

PizzaAnalogyGuy (1684610) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246680)

Pan pizza can be considered as an american pizza. Italian style pizza is thin and for example are discussed by the idea of pineapples in a pizza.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

Rhaban (987410) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246732)

Pan-pizza is not pizza.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

BLKMGK (34057) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247022)

Neither is pineapple pizza!

Re:Pizza Analogy (0, Troll)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246740)

Pizza is Italian.

There's no such thing as american pizza. Only american would-be pizza.

That's bullshit. That's like saying the Euro isn't money, just a would-be US Dollar.

Contrary to the elitist European attitudes, the US is way better so neener-neener-neener!

Re:Pizza Analogy (0, Offtopic)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246846)

Original pizza is the Italian pizza. Of course the American pizzas, pan-pizzas and so on are just would-be pizzas. For a pizza analogy, it's like a salami pizza without any salami on top of it.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246986)

Original pizza is the Italian pizza. Of course the American pizzas, pan-pizzas and so on are just would-be pizzas. For a pizza analogy, it's like a salami pizza without any salami on top of it.

Other than you, who fucking cares where pizza was invented? Leave it to an anti-American to make it a fucking issue where some food item was invented. Also, I don't see why you weren't modded troll yet I was, when we were doing the same exact thing.

God damn you PizzaAnalogyGuy! God... Damn... You!!!

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247040)

Original pizza is the Italian pizza. Of course the American pizzas, pan-pizzas and so on are just would-be pizzas. For a pizza analogy, it's like a salami pizza without any salami on top of it.

Something I meant to add to the above post, if you want to talk pizza, you should really understand that cities like Chicago and New York City have huge ties to Italy. I think it's disingenuous of you to criticize, as if your food is somehow superior having been cultivated and prepared by socialist totalitarians.

Re:Pizza Analogy (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246870)

Wikipedia has a WHOLE section on Pizza in the United States. Albeit, it doesn't have a single cite or reference.

Are you trying to tell me that an article written with nothing to check for accountability could possibly be false?

About Time! (2, Insightful)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246432)

The tax cheats are going to have a much harder time when the want to park their money offshore. This is really good news.

Re:About Time! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246482)

So US tax cheats get caught at the expense of EU privacy? F***ing s**t deal if you live in the EU. My transactions have got cock all to do with you.

And Americans wonder why everybody hates them.

Re:About Time! (1)

malus314 (1484329) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246720)

I don't wonder why everybody hates us, that's blatantly obvious

I do wonder why there has yet to be a collective "Fuck you" to us, though.... the minute the EU or another country tells the US to shove off will be a happy day in my book!

Re:About Time! (0, Troll)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246784)

So US tax cheats get caught at the expense of EU privacy? F***ing s**t deal if you live in the EU. My transactions have got cock all to do with you.

And Americans wonder why everybody hates them.

Citation needed. I'm an American (from the USA), and let me clarify things for you: we don't fucking care that you hate us, because we know you're all bass-ackwards. If anything, we hate you more because we live in a 1st World country and due to job exportation over the last 30 years we have to compete with you in your 2nd and 3rd World European countries.

So in summary, we don't wonder why, we know, and we hate you all just as much if not more.

Re:About Time! (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246954)

...[Americans] live in a 1st World country and due to job exportation over the last 30 years we have to compete with you in your 2nd and 3rd World European countries.

I don't know whether to feel elated that there are still Americans who grasp the concept of satirical irony, or to feel ashamed and apologize for this guy...

Re:About Time! (1)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247058)

...[Americans] live in a 1st World country and due to job exportation over the last 30 years we have to compete with you in your 2nd and 3rd World European countries.

I don't know whether to feel elated that there are still Americans who grasp the concept of satirical irony, or to feel ashamed and apologize for this guy...

Apologize for what? Speaking the truth bluntly? I'm sorry I didn't coat it in confectioners sugar for our "friends" abroad.

everyone doesn't hate Americans (1)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246936)

I'm American and I've traveled overseas quite a bit. I didn't run into a lot of hate. So either I beat the odds or else you're full of shit. I know which side my bets are on.

And it's not like Europeans don't pull shit trying to tell others what to do. The EU tries to enforce their Protected Geographic Status stuff in the US all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin [wikipedia.org]

And yet I don't hate Europeans.

Re:everyone doesn't hate Americans (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30247050)

I'm American and I've traveled overseas quite a bit. I didn't run into a lot of hate. So either I beat the odds or else you're full of shit. I know which side my bets are on.

And it's not like Europeans don't pull shit trying to tell others what to do. The EU tries to enforce their Protected Geographic Status stuff in the US all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin [wikipedia.org]

And yet I don't hate Europeans.

what a moron are you sir if you complain about how they tell you to name your food yet you believe its perfectly acceptable for your country to view MY banking transactions.

go call them freedom fries but my banking transactions are for me and my country's agencies and not for YOUR country's agencies.

no we don't hate americans but things like this one make us use the f adjective quite often when addressing americans.

Re:About Time! (5, Informative)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246492)

Is it worth catching corporate criminals at the cost of civil privacy?

Also, there are lots of ways around Taxation laws, legally, that require NO money off-shore. Using Charity receipts, holding companies, and company expenses, you can essentially cut your profits down so you don't get taxed as much while everything you want to purchase is owned by various companies (which you own but not directly).

It's kind of like you run company A, and Company B owns your car, Company C owns your house, Company D buys food, etc etc, and while the paper trail exists, theres nothing illegal about it. Shaw Communications (Cable company here in Canada) has mastered this technique. Yeah, the CEO is driving his Porsche around Calgary, but on paper he makes under 30k a year.

Re:About Time! (2, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246662)

You really think that's the intention? Are you so delusional that you think this is going to be used against the big tax cheats? The very same that fund the politicians that put these ideas into reality?

They don't give a shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246470)

The EU Council doesn't give a shit about European Parliament. Seriously, Iran is probably a better democracy than the EU. Most if not all democratic elements of the EU organization do not have any real power.

It's even worse than that (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246502)

They'll give access to all inter-bank transactions. The whole issue started with the revelation that US intelligence had access to SWIFT data through SWIFT's US data center. SWIFT then shifted its operation to its other data centers and will cease channeling EU transaction data through the US data center by the end of the year. So the loss of access for the US spies is the SWIFT data, but the treaty will give them access to all inter-bank transactions, even those which are not processed by SWIFT. This is a classic rebound technique: The EU cannot spy on its own citizens like that, but they do get information back from US spies.

Who's to blame? The US, for shamelessly exploiting the people they often call their friends? The EU council, for betraying their people? Why choose...

If this goes through on Monday, there will be calls to punish the EU Council for treason, but of course nothing will come of it.

Re:It's even worse than that (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246628)

If this goes through on Monday, there will be calls to punish the EU Council for treason, but of course nothing will come of it.

As far as I'm aware, the EU still takes more public money than any other organisation that has failed to produce audited accounts, and it's been doing so for more than a decade now. I think we can safely assume that they are above the law. And if they're not, as we've recently seen with the Lisbon treaty, they are quite capable of rewriting the law until they are, without needing any mandate from the people.

Re:It's even worse than that (1)

mitashki (1116893) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246818)

Good call! And more pizza analogy: "The guy who eats the pizza is not the crazy one, the crazy is the guy who gives him the pizza for nothing in return." It is not so much an US "fault" if they want an access to the data, but the EU Council representatives are the traitors here. I wonder if they don't receive more benefit next to the inter-bank transaction data?

America already allows various EU secret services (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246532)

to access our bank data, QUIETLY. That is why EU is real interested in passing this. If not, then we are just as likely to QUIETLY deny them. PATRIOT act is a real wicked item.

You scratch my back.. (1)

VMaN (164134) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246546)

How do you ask for a deal like this with a straight face, while not offering quid pro quo?

No really, I'd love to know how.

Re:You scratch my back.. (1)

MrMr (219533) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246670)

You make a couple of covert threats, you bribe a bunch of politicians, you slip in some straw men in important positions.
The usual.

Re:You scratch my back.. (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246844)

Umm... by carrying the bigger gun?

Anyone still not think they're in the US Empire? (3, Interesting)

presidenteloco (659168) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246592)

The United States is so clearly the new Roman Empire that it makes it
almost cute that they keep denying it.

There is no clearer sign than this agreement that we are
officially living in a PAX AMERICANA in the 21st century.

I guess we better hope that the guy with the somewhat forced
smile is nice to us.

If the US wants to have jurisdiction over the populations of the
world though, wouldn't it be only fair ("all men are equal...")
to give citizens of the colonies (= world - China) a vote in the
US presidential election?

Re:Anyone still not think they're in the US Empire (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246766)

wouldn't it be only fair ("all men are equal...")
to give citizens of the colonies (= world - China) a vote in the
US presidential election?

What good would that do? Corporations bought and paid for the US government long ago. It's all a big kabuki theater. They'll continue to get away with it too, because Americans continue to get shiny new gadgets and gizmos to keep them occupied and stupid.

Bring on the intrusion and control! More! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246598)

I love every story like this. I can't wait until the West is a complete fascist state, and all the progressives and other lovers of massive government are sitting around in prison muttering "Whut happen? We gave gummint more money and power to help the pooooor! It were for teh chiiiildren! They wusn't serposed to abuse der power! Dat not fair! Duuuuuh"

Dumbass braindead pigfuckers! LOL!

EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (5, Interesting)

MinistryOfTruthiness (1396923) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246606)

As a US citizen, I say "WTF Europe -- are you insane?!"

I believe in the right of every country to protect their sovereignty, and this sound like a gigantic ceding of that sovereignty, and as egregious as the formation and delegation of power to the EU. The absolute best way to avoid tyranny on a massive scale is to ensure the distribution of power to the greatest extent possible. That's why I believe in states' rights, and why I believe Europe is being a bunch of asshats right now. I'm as patriotic as they come, but I understand the capability of anyone -- Americans as much as anyone else -- to become drunk with power. In the same spirit, I applaud that no American financial data will be given to Europe. At least they got it half right.

Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (3, Interesting)

Spad (470073) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246776)

The EU Council of Ministers is an unelected body of the usual group of money-grabbing power-hungry and our of touch morons who do whatever you want if you've got the cash. The EU parliament (which *is* an elected body) on the other hand, has thus far been pretty good at representing the wishes of its constituents and has managed to thwart the CoM's attempts to force through some corporate-sponsored legislation against the wishes of the citizenry on several occasions.

As much as I dislike the Lisbon Treaty, one good thing to come out of it is increased power for the parliament at the expense of the CoM. The sooner they are removed from any kind of decision making the better.

Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (3, Informative)

Halo1 (136547) | more than 4 years ago | (#30247048)

I think you are confusing the Commission with the Council of Ministers. The Commission is completely unelected.

The Council of Ministers, as the name says, consists of ministers from the member states' governments. These ministers differ depending on the topic that's being discussed, but they're always ministers.

So unless your ministers are unelected (depending on the country either directly or indirectly), it's not really correct to describe them as "an unelected body of the usual group of money-grabbing power-hungry and our of touch morons who do whatever you want if you've got the cash."

That said, it is true that the Council is used a lot by member states to launder legislation that they would never even dare to propose in their own country. Later on they will then claim at home that they are obliged "by Europe" to implement these unpopular measures nationally, while they themselves are the reason that "Europe" does so.

The Lisbon Treaty also has a downside in this respect in that it makes many decisions require less stringent majorities (or a majority rather than unanimity). The result is that it takes more countries to oppose bad proposals, and generally that delegations will be less likely to even try to oppose something, because this costs political capital and there is less chance to win anyway.

Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (1)

Capt James McCarthy (860294) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246788)

This all could have long grown out of war treaties from WWII perhaps?

Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246856)

Sadly its only getting worse, the Lisbon Treaty was pushed into Europe without a vote in many countries. We now have president Rump-Steak, or whatever it is. Would you call a state a democracy if its leader was appointed by some men in a room? The EU is all about complete and utter removal of civil liberties, national sovereignty, democracy, privacy and individuality by a bunch of socialist superstate ass hats. To call it a democracy is to insult all working democracies around the world. They are now paying farmers to produce food and to make food that they can't sell (Lisbon removed the law that stopped farmers using every inch of land for farming).

Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (1)

u38cg (607297) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246930)

Oh no. Nothing of the sort. You see, it is unethical and wrong for a country to spy wholesale on its own citizens. Most unethical. Many countries even explicitly ban the practice. But if another country does it...oh well, the information was already collected, right? So we might as well use it. You scratch my back...

EU Government take latest Chance to cheat (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246648)

The EU governments are pushing the issue so they do not have to discuss it in the EU parliament. The Lissbon Treaty which will give the parliament a say in this matter is not in place right now. The parliament is strongly opposed of SWIFT.

IBAN ? (3, Insightful)

daveime (1253762) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246806)

As all of the EU can use IBAN for European transfers, I don't see the issue. The only reason we're still stuck with SWIFT is when making a transfer to/from outside the EU anyway, which invariably means US / Canada, in which case they already have access to the data.

Re:IBAN ? (0, Troll)

Kjella (173770) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246938)

The only reason we're still stuck with SWIFT is when making a transfer to/from outside the EU anyway, which invariably means US / Canada,

Aren't you proud to know twice as many continents as most Americans?

Re:IBAN ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30246970)

...how does an International Banking Account Number help me with the transfer of my payment information? The Problem isn't SWIFT (SWIFT s.c.r.l. is in fact owned by the financial institutions using it) but the European Commission.

EU should negotiate harder! (1)

mugurel (1424497) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246926)

In return, the US government should at least provide EU citizens with two-weekly overviews of their recent bank transactions. FREE OF CHARGE!

Make some noise (1)

RenHoek (101570) | more than 4 years ago | (#30246990)

I just send out some emails to my representatives. If you're an European, I urge you to do the same.

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