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Spain's Proposed Internet Law Sparks Protest, Change

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the passion-of-gen-y dept.

The Internet 103

[rvr] writes "Last Monday, the Spanish Government published the latest draft for the Sustainable Economy Act, which would enable a Commission dependent of the Ministry of Culture to take down websites without a court order, in cases of Intellectual Property piracy. On Wednesday, using Google Wave, a group of journalists, bloggers, professionals and creators composed and issued a Manifesto in Defense of Fundamental Rights on the Internet, stating that 'Copyright should not be placed above citizens' fundamental rights to privacy, security, presumption of innocence, effective judicial protection and freedom of expression.' Quickly, more than 50,000 blogs and sites re-published the manifesto. On Thursday morning, the Ministry of Culture Ángeles González Sinde (former president of the Spanish Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences) organized a meeting with a group of Internet experts and signers of the Manifesto. The meeting was narrated in real time via Twitter and concluded without any agreement. On Thursday afternoon, the Prime Minister's staff had a private meeting with the Ministry of Culture and some party members (who also expressed their opposition to the draft). Finally, Spain Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero announced in a press meeting that the text will be changed and a court order will continue to be a requirement, but [the government] still will search for ways to fight Internet piracy."

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103 comments

hey! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322112)

first pirate here!

Joer, tío! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322120)

Españoles, qué os pasó? You used to be cool. :P

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

Evtim (1022085) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322146)

What the hell??!?? Sustainable Economy Act has something to do with IP?? Ohh, how much I love demagogy...sustainable theft, that is what they are aiming for:)

Re:Joer, tío! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322262)

Blame the Thatcherites and Reaganites who destroyed the manufacturing industry in the '80s, turning the West into a "service"/IP-based economy. The only way to sustain Western economies is to create artificial scarcities.

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

Evtim (1022085) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322708)

Good point.

At the same time I see (at least in Western Europe) a decrease in the quality of services and ever increasing prizes. In fact the fear of the Western worker from the proverbial "Polish plumber" is well founded - for such money the Polish plumber will do excellent job , take care of your kids and cook you a dinner. What happened to the "quality first" way of working?!? I see it only in people above 45 - the culture has really changed:((

Is it not fun, BTW to watch just how far we (the so-called civilized humans) can push the "unchecked growth" strategy we exercise? We are living in interesting times, ladies and gentleman. We are living in a geometrical progression that will crash soon. I can’t wait!

Re:Joer, tío! (5, Informative)

gerddie (173963) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322156)

They still are, generally (Rounding three years in Madrid quite soon) - Lately a judge decided that P2P sites are okay [torrentfreak.com] for private sharing. However, the government tries to slip in above kind of Internet law ruling for quite some time now, it is not the first time and sure it will be not the last time.

Re:Joer, tío! (4, Interesting)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322412)

They still are, generally (Rounding three years in Madrid quite soon) - Lately a judge decided that P2P sites are okay [torrentfreak.com] for private sharing. However, the government tries to slip in above kind of Internet law ruling for quite some time now, it is not the first time and sure it will be not the last time.

I agree, the Spanish and its current government are really good when it comes to the internet (Also living in Madrid 7 years or so). Spain has once again demonstrated itself far more wise than France, UK when it comes to bowing to international lobbying pressure. Let me explain: The Spanish government, like all the worlds governments, has been under intense lobbying pressure ("presiones políticas"). You get no points for guessing who has been working the hardest to change the democratic system here in Spain and around the world: Yes that's right, good old US of A. Proof: Here is last years US annual IIP 301 report [ustr.gov] lumping Spain along side China, Rusia, and many others as the worst offenders for not bowing to intellectual property demands of the United States "authors". Summary of 301 report: Aims of the US here and elsewhere in the world:

The Administration's top priorities this year continue to be addressing weak IPR protection and enforcement... Although this year's Special 301 Report shows positive progress in many countries, rampant counterfeiting and piracy problems have continued... indicating a need for stronger IPR regimes and enforcement in those countries.

How do you think they are "helping" countries like Spain implement stronger IPR regimes? Through democratic process and listening to the will of the people? (blackmailing [expatica.com] , extorting [latimes.com] and corrupting are more applicable words). Oh I forgot, here in the US we call the process "spreading democracy" [google.com] , silly me.

What we have got is a extremely powerful country running around this little planet with an exceptionally big political stick, beating any country into submission that dares listen to the will of its people over their idea of Intellectual property enforcement (and anything else). Don't believe me: try reading the "INTERNATIONAL INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY ALLIANCE (IIPA) 2009 SPECIAL REPORT" [iipa.com] on Spain. (their title, not mine sorry - I guess they want to shout the message). First line summary for the lazy:

Executive Summary: Internet piracy in Spain continues to worsen, such that many of the copyright industries believe that Spain has the worst per capita Internet piracy problem in Europe and one of the worst overall Internet piracy rates in the world. Exacerbating the high piracy levels are the Spanish government’s policies of: (1) “decriminalizing” P2P file-sharing (as reflected in the 2006 Circular issued by the Attorney General) and (2) failing to establish the minimum EU-level requirements regarding liability for Internet service providers under the E-Commerce Directive so that rights holders have the necessary tools to enforce their rights on the Internet. As a result, the police have ceased taking Internet enforcement actions given the legal uncertainties, and the Attorney General has requested dismissal of current criminal cases against illegal portal and link sites. Importantly, negotiations between rights holders and the Internet service provider (ISP) community to find ways to prevent infringing content from being distributed over the ISPs’ services and/or networks finally started in 2008, and a satisfactory conclusion must be reached soon.

Read that summary quote above!. As an internaut, does anything the Spanish government has done sound bad to you? Well the "satisfactory conclusion" that they refer to in the report is more like a political death sentence for the Spanish government under José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero [wikipedia.org] , and unfortunately it probably will be.

What Spain has done was brilliant and right out of "Yes Minister [wikipedia.org] ". They caved this international extortion pressure and signed off on some really strict laws to satisfy the big stick wielding IP overlord, then within days turned around and conceded to the outraged internet community that yes, we agree, democratic and judicial process should be a priority - something almost without precedent here indicating that the Spanish gov planned planned to do this from the start. Like it did not so long ago with Iraq, the current Spanish government has once again demonstrated that is has the cojones to stand up listen to the will of its people, effectively giving the middle finger to those that would foist undemocratic systems in the name of intellectual property enforcement.

What makes me sad is that the local media is giving the current government and really bad rap - they don't mention the international pressure to at least be seen to be doing something about the problem of this fan-dangled new internet thing. (especially the Madrid media where it is decisively opposition territory, same political party of the ever controversal [wikipedia.org] , ever popular and good friend of Bush Jr ex-presentment Jose [stanforddaily.com] Maria Aznar). I doubt that they will get re-elected with all the powerful countries and institutions they have pissed of lately - there is just too much bad press against them for doing the right thing - and Joe six pack does not elect based on reading between the newspaper head - lines.

P.D Ojalá que podía escribir mejor en español... después de leer algunas blogs por aquí quería decir mas o menos esto en español, porque muchos blogs todavía no tienen mucho idea de los fuerzas y presiones políticos en juego - solo paren en el mensaje "que malo es esta ley y zapatero".

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

Slashidiot (1179447) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322446)

I think most of the spanish blogs talking about this would love to have a comment as good as this one, even if it's badly written in spanish. Go ahead and do it. If the ideas are good, the form of the message doesn't really matter.

US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322624)

I wish I could write my post above in Spanish - but without a good command of the language it comes across completely wrong.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323182)

As an internaut, does anything the Spanish government has done sound bad to you?

Yes, although it's not mentioned by the IIPA for some strange reason: the blank media levy. I use CDRs to back up my photos, etc; and I don't appreciate paying on the assumption that I'm using them to pass around copies of La Oreja de Van Gogh's latest album.

I'm not a native hispanohablante, but I could translate the gist of your message if you want.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323302)

I'm not a native hispanohablante, but I could translate the gist of your message if you want.

Sure, you and anyone else with better ties to Spanish bloggers can go for it... translate and post away all you like I don't mind!

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

[rvr] (93881) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323492)

It's been already twitted and RT'd. Thanks, it's very interesting.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324140)

Excelente, muchas gracias!

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 4 years ago | (#30325032)

Here you go. No doubt a native speaker could improve it, and maybe someone with a bit of time can find Spanish versions of the links I haven't replaced.

España ha vuelto a mostrarse mucho más sabia que Francia o el Reino Unido en cuanto a rendirse ante las presiones de los lobbys internacionales. Me explico: el gobierno español, como cualquier gobierno, ha sido sujeto a presiones políticas intensas. No hay premios para adivinar quién ha hecho el mayor esfuerzo para cambiar el sistema democrático aquí en España y por todo el mundo: sí, como siempre, EEUU. La demostración: aquí está el informe 301 anual del IIP de EEUU [ustr.gov] , que menciona España con China, Rusia, y varios otros países como los peores infractores por no ceder a las exigencias de propiedad intelectual de los "autores" estadounidenses. El resumen del informe 301: Metas de EEUU aquí y en otras partes del mundo:

Las prioridades principales de la Administración este año siguen ser tratar debilidades en protección de y de hacer respetar los derechos de propiedad intelectual [DPI]... Aunque el Informe Especial 301 de este año muestra progreso positivo en muchos países, problemas endémicos de falsificación y piratería han continuado... lo que indica la necesidad de regímenes más fuertes de [protegir] y hacer repetar los DPI en esos países.

Cómo crees que "ayudan" a países como España a implementar regímenes más fuertes de DPI? Por el proceso democrático y escuchar la voluntad de la gente? (Chantaje [expatica.com] , extorsiones [latimes.com] y corrupción son palabras más adecuadas). Ay, pero se me olvidé, aquí en EEUU llamamos al proceso "difundir la democracia" [google.com] , qué tonto soy.

Lo que tenemos es un país extremadamente poderoso que corre por este pequeño planeta con un palo político excepcionalmente grande, pegando hasta que se someta cualquier país que se atreva a escuchar la voluntad de su gente con respeto a su idea de lo que es hacer respetar la propiedad intelectual (o cualquier otra idea). No me creas así de fácil: intenta leer el "Informe Especial 2009 de la Alianza Internacional de Propiedad Intelectual (IIPA)" [inglés] [iipa.com] sobre España. El resumen ejecutivo para los perezosos [o los que no leen el inglés]:

La piratería por Internet en España sigue empeorando, tanto que muchas de las industrias de copyright creen que España tiene el peor problema de piratería por Internet per capita en Europa y una de las tasas de conjunto de piratería por Internet en el mundo. Los altos niveles de piratería se agravan por las políticas del gobierno español de: (1) "despenalizar" la distribución P2P de archivos (reflejado en la Circular de 2006 de la Fiscalía General) y (2) fallar en establecer los requisitos mínimos a nivel de la UE en cuanto a las responsabilidades de los proveedores de servicios de Internet según el Directivo de E-Commercio para que los dueños de derechos tengan las herramientas necesarias para hacer respetar sus derechos en Internet. Por resultado, la policía ha dejado de tomar acciones en Internet por las incertezas legales, y la Fiscalía ha pedido que sobresean casos criminales actuales contra webs ilegales de portales y vínculos. Es importante constar que empezaron por fin en 2008 las negociaciones entre dueños de derechos y la comunidad de proveedores de servicios de Internet (PSI) para encontrar maneras de impedir que se distribuya por los servicios y/o las redes de los PSI contenidos que infringan [los DPI], y una conclusión satisfactoria debe alcanzarse pronto.

Lee esa cita de resumen arriba! Como internauta a ti suena mal algo que ha hecho el gobierno español? Pues la "conclusión satisfactoria" a la que hacen referencia en el informe es más una sentencia de muerte política para el gobierno español de ZP, y por desgracia es probable que lo sea.

Lo que hizo España fue ingenioso y exactamente lo que harían en Sí, ministro [wikipedia.org] . Sometieron a esta presión internacional de extorsion y firmaron una leyes muy estrictas para satisfacer al cacique de PI con el palo grande, y dentro de días dieron la vuelta y concedieron a la comunidad irata de usuarios de Internet que sí, estamos de acuerdo, la democracia y el proceso judicial deben ser una prioridad - algo casi sin precedentes aquí que indica que el gobierno español había planificado hacer esto desde el principio. Como hizo hace poco con respeto a Irak, el gobierno español actual ha vuelto a mostrar que tiene los huevos para resistir y escuchar la voluntad de la gente, en efecto hacer un corte de mangas a los que lo impondrían sistemas no democráticos en el nombre de hacer respetar la propiedad intelectual.

Lo que me entristece es que los medios locales desestimen el gobierno actual, no hablan de la presión internacional de por lo menos ser visto haciendo algo contra el problema de esta novedosa cosa "Internet". (Sobre todo los medios madrileños donde definitivamente es territorio de la oposición, el mismo partido político del siempro controvertido, siempro buen amigo de Bush, José María Aznar). Dudo que vuelvan a ganar las elecciones teniendo en cuenta todos los países e instituciones poderosos que han ofendido recientemente, hay demasiadas opiniones en la prensa en contra de ellos por hacer la cosa justa, y Fulanito no vota según leer lo que está implícito en los títulos de los periódicos.

I take parent post as providing general permission to reproduce to everyone rather than just me (important, since this is a derived work); I also grant permission to anyone who wants to copy this, or improved versions thereof, with or without links back here.

Entiendo por el post padre de éste que Smegly permite a todos, no solamente a mi, reproducir (importante porque ésta es una obra derivada); y también permito a cualquier que quiera copiar esta traducción o versiones mejoradas, con o sin vínculos aquí.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323850)

Yes, although it's not mentioned by the IIPA for some strange reason: the blank media levy

It is not so strange that IIPA do not mention that they are already receiving hundreds of millions+ with the blank media tax [wikipedia.org] . Reason being that they need to paint Spain as the evil bad guy in the copyright debate - conceding that they already receive buckets of money - for doing nothing - would weaken their argument, so it's left off the "report". Yes its bad that Spain changes the blank media levy, but its also bad the almost all other countries do the same. Could you imagine the political backlash if Spanish government decided to be the first country in the first world not to levy the tax? Politically they are and continue to be grilled and royally humiliated [google.com] for doing the right thing (by the internet community and in other arenas), but by not charging the levy they might as well just give up office now for all the backlash it would create from the powerful IIPA.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (2, Informative)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323934)

It is not so strange

Sorry, I'm British. That was an example of British sarcasm.

Could you imagine the political backlash if Spanish government decided to be the first country in the first world not to levy the tax?

I hope there would be an even greater backlash in the UK, because they'd have to introduce one before this could happen.

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (2, Interesting)

Smegly (1607157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324126)

I hope there would be an even greater backlash in the UK, because they'd have to introduce one before this could happen

Wow, I didn't know that. I stand corrected... thanks! Teach me for assuming. Spain should follow UK's lead :). Went back and read the wikipedia link I posted more carefully: "A notable exception in Europe is the UK, that does not allow private copies. But generally legislators allow private copies for two reasons: firstly, because otherwise the enforcement would be unfeasible for private reasons, and secondly because the administrative burden would be disproportional."

Re:US POLITICAL PRESSURE FOR THIS LAW (1)

Eternauta3k (680157) | more than 4 years ago | (#30325130)

Just post it in English, there's bound to be someone willing to translate it.

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

plastbox (1577037) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324266)

Did I miss out on something vital here..? From the quoted "SPECIAL REPORT":

As a result, the police have ceased taking Internet enforcement actions given the legal uncertainties, and the Attorney General has requested dismissal of current criminal cases against illegal portal and link sites.

If these sites aren't illegal in Spain, then who are these international idiots accusing Spain of allowing illegal activities (so to speak)? I might just be confused here, but the day an American cop arrests me and confiscates all my computer gear for doing something that is perfectly legal in Norway where I live but not in America is the day I loose all hope in humanity.

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 4 years ago | (#30325072)

Wait--are you trying to tell me that the US software industry wants to the US government to negotiate trade deals with other countries to ensure that the citizens of those countries compensate the software companies for the software they use?

Inconceivable!!!

Re:Joer, tío! (1)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323088)

It's lovely that governments are so eager to fight but guess who pays for the boxing gloves. Continuing battles generate continuing public expenses. Real economic recovery might involve the idea that issues that do not resolve be kept out of government and the courts unless they really are of vital public interest. We see stem cell issues eating at public taxes. We have seen pornography wasting public money for centuries. In America we see all kinds of time and money occupied with abortion arguments. It is high time for our courts and our legislatures to face the fact that these issues are an endless swamp that we do not need to wade in. In essence one side feels that they must have something and in order to get it they force all of us to pay for their endless whimpering and complaints. They should have been aborted!

The Web Has Changed (5, Insightful)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322144)

Spain is now added to the growing list of countries attempting to put the free internet genie back in the bottle. Many scoff at such attempts and repeat tired old platitudes from the early 1990s about how the internet routes around censorship, etc. But what they forget is that in the last 10, and particularly in the last 5 years, the internet has changed. Drastically. An unfree web is closer now than at any time in the history of the network.

Several developments have lead us to this point. Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, was the development of the Great Firewall of China. The apparatus designed, developed and implemented by the Chinese communist party has conclusively proven that the internet can be controlled, filtered and censored on a massive scale. The technologies developed for its implementation, largely by western companies, are now being sold back to western governments with much the same task in mind. While the wall is not airtight, it does offer the governments the level of control they once enjoyed over traditional media like books and newspapers. As a mass medium, the internet can be successfully centered.

Secondly, the internet has become more centralised. Despite the hype behind Web 2.0, the majority of new internet technologies and sites are controlled by a smaller number of huge companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc. What's your hompage right now, and how do you find your way to sites? This is in stark contrast to the very early days of the web, or even the 1990s, where there were no search engines, and the only meeting places were on irc. People now store most, if not all, of their private information on the servers, the "clouds", of big companies, so all that is needed to gain large awareness on the net is control of this relatively small number of private interests.

Thirdly, the vast majority of internet users are now technically unsavvy. Combined with the increasing complexity of website and protocols, this means that the network has become and ever more inscrutable blackbox, and most users will be unaware of any censorship efforts or implementations; that is, where they are not completely apathetic. Whereas in the past, netziens were more likely to spot, and indeed protest at censorship, nowadays most users simply will not care as long as their webmail and social networking accounts are unaffected. Governments can site this apathy as justification, and indeed have.

The Web has changed. We're going to see more and more Governments implementing acts like these. It's in the interests of all big players to shape the internet into a controllable mass medium and that's why they're going to keep pushing these laws, worldwide, until they achieve that goal. In ten years times, earlier times will be looked back on as anarchy by all but a few idealists, who will be looked on as hippies or cranks.

My advice is to learn how to use a typewriter.

Re:The Web Has Changed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322286)

While the wall is not airtight

The Chinese firewall is leaky as a sieve. And the technology is irrelevant to the censorship; it's a reflection of Chinese society, a purely social issue.

People now store most, if not all, of their private information on the servers

Wut

It only takes a few idealists hippie cranks, to create the tools which the unsavvy masses can use.
You called web 2.0 hype, then used the web in all your examples, apart for a bit of pre-google nostalgia about IRC.
Networked computers will always have an anarchistic frontier element, and that genie is NOT going back in the bottle. Freedom is as much an element of western culture, as unfreedom (omg double speak) is of Chinese culture.

Re:The Web Has Changed (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322310)

So what is this? A struggle between good and evil? I hear a lot of folks talking about (including me) how the internet is becoming less free. How we place all of our information in trust on corporate servers. And this seems not to be of a national issue but something that effects everyone in all countries.

So what's the solution to this? Isn't the only solution to shift the evolution of technology from corporations back to the people (hackers?).

I believe this is an issue of management and leadership. Maybe the corporations are better at motivating and leading people and as such are better equipped to develop our future technology, even if that technology isn't what's best for mankind.

Re:The Web Has Changed (3, Insightful)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322926)

Revoke the copy right. It isn't a right; it's a privilege which has been abused. Revoke that privilege.

Replace it with a *temporary* monopolistic *license* granted to the original author for 14 years. When that 14 years is up, the author will either have to get off his fat ass & write a new book/song/movie, or else get a job at Walmart like the rest of us normal citizens do.

For corporate "authors" this means they will no longer be able to sell $40 boxsets of old movies (example: Gone with the Wind) that were created by now-dead people. The corporations will have to innovate or die (as it should be).

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 4 years ago | (#30327118)

I rofled when you said, "job at Walmart like the rest of us normal citizens do." If that's normal for you, you might want to try going to school and working on a real career!

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30328750)

Actually I have an office job. Although I get paid about 5 times more than a Walmart employee, it's still a job. I can't sit on my butt and collect royalties off my creations like authors can.

Re:The Web Has Changed (2, Insightful)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322324)

or even the 1990s, where there were no search engines

Humph, not exactly. I was using Alta Vista and Lycos in the late 1990s, and they were not the first web search engines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_search_engine [wikipedia.org] . And before any on that list there was Gopher, which was a hypertext prelude to the web http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) [wikipedia.org] , and I was using non-web internet search engines such as WAIS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_information_server [wikipedia.org] in the 1980s, before the web existed. Earlier, it was a pain finding information on internet - somebody had to tell you where to look, and which access method to use (telnet/ftp/etc.).

But you are right in that search engines are now major portals to internet information, predominantly through web URIs, and that a few such engines dominate search (and hence access to information).

he said (4, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322396)

on the internet

(smirk)

what they do in china or iran has no bearing on the internet in liberal western countries, because there is no assumption of the basic rights you take for granted here. example #1, being this very story you wrote your comment under: people protest in spain, and have the right to do so, and affect feedback on their government via a vote and their free expression. this has an effect on the policy of the spanish government. how can i say this: read the fucking story, spanish people en masse are making a difference. there is no such feedback in china: the technocrats in beijing dictate, and their will is done. someday, this status quo will be overturned, simply because the agenda of the common man and the agenda of the ruling class, if decoupled as in a nondemocracy, will come to revolution and societal breakdown inevitably, as we see beginning in iran this june

but nevermind my optimism, lets get back to your gloomy pantywaist pessimism about the state of the world: why are you even writing this on slashdot? why aren't you hard at work on your typewriter, tinfoil on head, boxes of crackers and ammo in your cave? because of the value of the internet to project your thoughts, 1,000,000x better than that of a typewriter, that's why. a value you cherish, as i do, and, unlike you, who has resigned yourself to liberal western countries controlling you as much as totalitarian ones for some paranoid schizophrenic reason, i, and many others like me, will fight for this value of the internet we cherish. and others like me, unlike you, know that our government listens to us via our vote and our words. yes, dorothy, it actually does, all fashionable cynical cowardly opinion to the contrary be retarded

i know that i matter. that you believe you don't matter is your own intellectual failure, not mine, and your resignation to your self-imposed helplessness is a resignation that only affects your sorry ass, and has no bearing on my rights and abilities as a free man of a liberal western democracy, which i fully comprehend, appreciate, enjoy, and practice. if my society fails into fascism, it will be no fault of mine, but by the unfortunate proliferation of weak spineless pessimistic fools like yourself who have already given up before any battle has even been fought

otherwise, if you want to continue to cite vast conspiratorial forces that control you and a stranglehold by multinational corporations on your government, then what the hell are you even protesting about if you have already given up on your society so thoroughly? your government is not as darkly compromised as you portray it, because if it were, you wouldn't even be here on slashdot complaining about it, because you would be certain it wouldn't make any difference

oh, but you do write words... so therefore you do, in some perhaps subconscious way, believe you can still make a difference. so since there is a shadow of doubt in your mind about the thoroughness of your slavery, that you might actually retain some self-determination in your life and your government, then the next step in your intellectual growth would be to realize you actually matter in your western democracy, that the principles you care about actually matter and have a good chance, and that you should get out there and actually agitate for the change you believe in, like every other truly free man. claim your status as a free man, and stop fucking whining about doomed we all are. because your problem, unlike most of us, is that your lack of freedom is imposed on yourself by your own failed point of view, not by any government. learned helplessness: its a degenerate psychological state, not a valid ideology

instead of hiding in your basement and writing whiny missives on slashdot about how we're all doomed, why don't you stop being so fucking pathetic, claim yourself as a free man, stop being spooked by shadows, grow a fucking backbone, and fight in the framework of your society which values liberal notions of various freedoms, and actually fucking fight for fucking once about what actually fucking matters in this world?

wake the fuck up, chicken little

Re:he said (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322648)

+1 Snap?

Re:he said (3, Insightful)

Xeriar (456730) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322834)

i know that i matter. that you believe you don't matter is your own intellectual failure, not mine, and your resignation to your self-imposed helplessness is a resignation that only affects your sorry ass, and has no bearing on my rights and abilities as a free man of a liberal western democracy, which i fully comprehend, appreciate, enjoy, and practice. if my society fails into fascism, it will be no fault of mine, but by the unfortunate proliferation of weak spineless pessimistic fools like yourself who have already given up before any battle has even been fought

I would offer a correction. -You- don't matter. Your friends, connections, and the relationships you have built matters quite a lot. The article demonstrates that rather well - a lot of attention was generated very quickly. Never fight alone. More of the world is with you than you think.

Re:he said (2, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323078)

A lot of the world is also *against* you as I discovered after I walked in a Tea Party protest. I thought it was common sense - The current national debt is $120,000 per home, projected to be $200,000 by 2016, and yet the Congress is still spending money like mad. It needs to stop.

But no. Instead I was called an "astroturfer" which is wrong because I don't get paid. Then I was labeled a "racist" but that's also not true; and frankly insulting. Even if Hillary was president or McCain president, I'd still protest because I see us spending ourselves into a hole that we'll never escape. Common sense position? Apparently not; some Americans want the debt to climb to ~$200,000 per home.

"More of the world is with you than you think," is only half the story.
A lot of the world is against you, and they want MORE government control, not less
They want censorship. They want the Patriot Act. They want more spending.

Re:he said (1)

OzoneLad (899155) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323658)

A lot of the world is also *against* you as I discovered after I walked in a Tea Party protest. I thought it was common sense - The current national debt is $120,000 per home, projected to be $200,000 by 2016, and yet the Congress is still spending money like mad. It needs to stop.

But no. Instead I was called an "astroturfer" which is wrong because I don't get paid. Then I was labeled a "racist" but that's also not true; and frankly insulting. Even if Hillary was president or McCain president, I'd still protest because I see us spending ourselves into a hole that we'll never escape. Common sense position? Apparently not; some Americans want the debt to climb to ~$200,000 per home.

"More of the world is with you than you think," is only half the story. A lot of the world is against you, and they want MORE government control, not less They want censorship. They want the Patriot Act. They want more spending.

Oh yes. *Now* the debt is a problem. Where the hell were the Tea Party people when the US was entering into a grossly expensive and unnecessary war while cutting taxes? That. there, is why the Tea Party people are being called astroturfers: because they seem to have sprung up from nowhere to protest budgetary policies as if the debt was the current administration's fault.

Here's an idea for you: Stop trying to make the world better for your corporations at gunpoint, and take care of your population. If you cut the army's budget and put that into health care, you'd be set. But noooooo! Guns and tanks, and more precisely the companies that make them, are a lot more important than actual people.

Re:he said (1)

Machtyn (759119) | more than 4 years ago | (#30326658)

Are you stating that the world is *not* better off without Saddam's Iraq? I'm sure the tortured Iraqis would say that, at least, Iraq is better off.

In any case, Tea Parties are against raising taxes and placing unnecessary burdens on the people. It has nothing to do with war efforts. To state that the Tea Parties are composed of those who agreed with the war in Afghanistan and (the) Iraq is to sell the Tea Party attendants short. There are many at these gatherings from all types of backgrounds.

To the point of the Tea Parties, look at California, very large debt and they keep *raising* taxes! When you bleed the people, no one will have anything to give and they'll all be sucking off the funding from social programs that are bleeding money and causing more debt. The people didn't like it when (bu-bu-but) Bush gave out cash like it grew on trees and they don't like it now.

It is this type of idea the Tea Parties are trying to prevent from happening on a national level against an administration and representatives that have, for the most part, failed to listen to their constituents. 2010 cannot get here fast enough. There is a hope that the country hasn't become a joke and a cesspool of rampant inflation by 2012. It already is a laughingstock to its enemies and a major cause of concern to its supposed friends.

Re:he said (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 4 years ago | (#30327238)

Military strength is very important in terms of global influence. The debt has become a huge problem now because of the grossly expensive + irresponsible + unnecessary + unhelpful trillions of dollars lost in bailouts. Here's an idea for you: Stop trying to control entire institutions through a broken and inefficient government power when the free market solves the problem more efficiently and more quickly. Investing in military spendings gives a huge return in value right back to our country, and it really benefits the people more than you'd think. The current administration is proposing radical changes to the budget, so protests are not unreasonable by any stretch of your imagination.

Re:he said (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30328884)

>>>Where the hell were the Tea Party people when the US was entering into a grossly expensive and unnecessary war while cutting taxes?

STRAWMAN argument. You presume we didn't rally during Bush's term, but you assume wrong. FIRST off, there's a huge difference between a war that cost ~100 billion a year, and the Congress spending ~2000 billion in less than a year's time:

- I was against the war from 9/12 onward, but nobody listened to me (at that point pro-war was near-unanimous in Congress). I became angry when Bush said "Let's spend 700 billion to bailout AIG and other companies". I called my representative to vote down the bill, but he didn't listen. That is the point when I joined the Protest. I realized Bush was not listening, the Republicans were not listening, and the Democrats certainly weren't listening.

And of course the spending just continues. Congress is acting like a teenager with a credit card - no self control. This isn't a R versus D issue. This is a "stop the madness of the R/D monopoly" issue, or else we'll collapse like the German Weimar republic did (or more-recently Dubai did).
.

>>>If you cut the army's budget and put that into health care

Another strawman argument. I'm not against healthcare. I'm against monopoly

i completely disagree with you (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324214)

but i completely support your right to get out there and agitate for your cause, because i respect you as a free man: i see that you are well-meaning and intend well and you honestly and with a forthright nature go out there and represent your concerns, even in the face of withering resistance. this makes you whole and true

as opposed to the grandfather poster, who is a slave behind bars in his mind of his own making, scared into cowering subservience to phantom forces that exist in such overwhelming strength only in his head

the proliferation of men like you, agitating honestly and openly for their concerns, means our children will live in a free society. the proliferation of men like the grandfather poster, who projects their character weaknesses and psychological deficits onto the outside world, means our children will live under the boot of tyranny

godspeed to you sir

(*though your overwhelming particular concern: debt levels, is only a tenth of the economic story and the proper economic agenda, as i see it in my mind... and i could be wrong, and remain open-minded to adjustment of my economic opinions)

Re:i completely disagree with you (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30328984)

>>>*though your overwhelming particular concern: debt levels, is only a tenth of the economic story and the proper economic agenda, as i see it in my mind...

I'm sorry but I don't see how we can survive with $200,000 (in 2016 according to the CBO) hanging over every U.S. home. That level of debt exceeds the value of the house itself (which is $150,000 on average). In essence we'll be upside-down in debt.

When Bush arrived the debt was $9 trillion; he increased it to 11.

When Obama finishes his eight years, the debt will have jumped from 11 to 20 trillion - almost double. Those numbers come direct from the Congressional Budget Office

Re:The Web Has Changed (4, Interesting)

Kjella (173770) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322424)

I agree with most you said about the masses, though I'm not sure I'd go that far. But I disagree that it's time to "learn to use a typewriter", the free and technically savvy parts of the Internet is doing just fine. Why would we go anywhere as long as everything can be tunnelled on top of the existing one?

Also, I'm not sure if you misunderstand cause and effect. The repeated attempts to create "borders" on the Internet is exactly because people have understood how easy it is to circumvent them. Can't do $something in $country? Put it online on a server outside their juridiction, don't have a presence in that country and you can ignore those laws with impunity. How many times have YouTube been in the press because they have clips that aren't legal in their country of origin, but legal under US law? And for everything not illegal in Sweden, check the Pirate Bay (and for most of the rest too).

The only thing they can even touch is the stuff where they, against most reason, has managed to create one "world law" already. Like for example child pornography which is almost universally defined as under 18, even though in most of the world you can legally have sex with a 17 year old. Look at something like suprnova, it was huge and now it's gone but the world routed around it like nothing happened.

With each computer becoming more and more powerful, the less you need to find thousands of peers in a centralized solution. Everyone that's read about six degrees of Kevin Bacon knows we could do just fine with a F2F network - friend to friend. With enough bandwidth I'd happily "pipe" information from one friend to the other, without them ever knowing each other. Even if they could crush the central solutions, it'd be like chopping the tip off an iceberg, more would just rise to the surface.

Re:The Web Has Changed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322814)

Six degrees was flawed and cannot be extrapolated to the general case. Dig it up if interested.

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

openfrog (897716) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323810)

I agree with you on the idea of not ceding to pessimism as the parent does.

However, another point needs to be made about the parent:

Looking at things from a different angle, you can analyze the present claim grabbing behavior of copyright lobbies to the behavior of companies in unregulated new markets, like railroad, telegraph, etc. Unregulated wild wests where the market can't play its role and where you get monopolies, intimidation, arrested innovation, economic stagnation, government corruption, etc. Quite an unruly state of things.

So it is the copyright lobby and the inadapted organizations backing it acting in an unruly fashion here, not the citizens.

So the governments of the civilized world can pretty well see where their interests lie in this battle.

The manifesto is wonderfully well worded to put things in this perspective for the hard to hear average political representative, and for alerting public opinion as well.

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

cpghost (719344) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322644)

Secondly, the internet has become more centralised. Despite the hype behind Web 2.0, the majority of new internet technologies and sites are controlled by a smaller number of huge companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.

That's not what I'm worried about, as nothing prevent people from choosing alternatives for hosting their stuff, including putting it on their own local servers/routers @home.

The real issue, IMHO, is the centralized nature of the IP infrastructure herself, i.e. the tiered Internet with a couple of major backbones, followed up downstream by many ISPs. Way back during BBS and UUCP days, we could connect directly via modems, using nothing more than a POTS land line. No need for backbones nor ISP middlemen who could be coerced by law to implement all kinds of restrictive or surveillance measures.

In the analog days, you couldn't prevent people or modems from whistling on the phone, today you can filter all kinds of digital traffic rather efficiently (unless it's encrypted, but governments may ban encryption for the sake of saving the Holy Copyright).

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323106)

>>>using nothing more than a POTS land line. No need for backbones nor ISP middlemen who could be coerced by law to implement all kinds of restrictive or surveillance measures.

Not quite true. Back in the BBS days my local telephone company (Bell; now Verizon) tried to charge me a "modem surcharge" or else have my phone disconnected. There has always been a middleman.

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

misexistentialist (1537887) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322722)

My advice is to learn how to use a typewriter.

The Lives of Others shows how typewriters can be controlled by the government too through restricting sales and "fingerprinting" them. The problem has always been government corruption--the internet cannot save us from ourselves.

Re:The Web Has Changed (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322870)

>>>the majority of new internet technologies and sites are controlled by a smaller number of huge companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc. What's your hompage right now, and how do you find your way to sites?

My home page is blank.

Re:The Web Has Changed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30324504)

(but with power in the anonymous - my words, not my face..) I can see the direction that the author is coming from; one of someone who works in the tech industry. And while the ability to write such a post freely seems to be a contradiction to his main point as some of the other comments point out, so too is his point about the average person on the internet not caring or knowing how much they have become censored. Case and point is many of the comments that speak so strongly against what is written here..

For many years now, the governments of the world have realized that their own citizens are far more dangerous than the citizens of anywhere else (ie military) could be. Since this realization, you have lost freedoms at an ever-increasing rate, no matter where you live. The only truly enslaved person is one who doesn't see the walls of his cage - one who thinks of himself as "free".

Duh. (5, Informative)

marcansoft (727665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322150)

A few notes for those not aware of how things have been going around here lately (I'm Spanish):

  • The current Spanish government is in bed with the local equivalent of the MAFIAA (the SGAE).
  • Downloading copyrighted audio/video works is legal in spain, as long as no profit is made (this does not apply to software). Whether uploading is legal or not (or how illegal it is) is somewhat debated. There have been plenty of people "turning themselves" in for downloading, with no arrests made.
  • To offset the legal downloads, just about everything relevant to copying has a levy on it, including writable optical media (the levies there are ridiculous), but also the writers, hard drives, USB sticks, MP3 players, cellphones, printers, scanners, photocopiers, etc. For example, you're paying the SGAE €12 for each hard drive, except for those bundled as master drives on new systems. These profits are then theoretically distributed by the SGAE to artists in highly controversial ways.
  • Nonetheless, there is constant FUD claiming that "pirating" music and movies is illegal and will get you jailed (there are some pretty ridiculous advertising campaigns by the SGAE)

The SGAE is nothing new, they're the usual corrupt mafia-like organization that you'd expect. They're just trying to screw over both consumers and artists as much as they can. They'd love to have it both ways (making downloads illegal and keeping the levies).

Funny tidbit: the SGAE used to claim that Linux was a shareware version of UNIX on their glossary page. They later "fixed" it by lifting a paragraph from Wikipedia, in violation of the GFDL.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322238)

All true. Oh and don't forget that our president is a liar and has the habit of saying one thing and the opposite in the same sentence... the law is still going forward as far as everyone knows. He's just stated that "no website or blog is being closed" to calm people down but there's still no concretion on the changes to the law, which may as well be passed unmodified.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322572)

And this comment of yours doesn't have anything to do that you're a right wing fanatic from the PP ( equivalent to the republicans ). isn't it?

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322820)

No, but your comment shows that you are an idiot because instead of thinking in how the Prime Minister is a liar and wants to screw you with all these laws, you think in how all his abuses benefit (obviously) the opposition. However, think that the other party hasn't done anything to deserve the votes. It's just the government doing things by its own. Thankfully, I have to add. Because if they weren't SO AWFULLY BAD and weren't doing things SO WRONG, people would still vote them for "fear" of what the others might do. Because "fear" is the most powerful force to move ignorants, the one they rely the most.

Sorry for calling you an idiot, dude. But you are one, indeed.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30323310)

...and this is different from every other politician how, exactly?

Re:Duh. (1)

c0p0n (770852) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322774)

Downloading copyrighted audio/video works is legal in spain, as long as no profit is made

That's not quite true. It's not exactly legal nor illegal, in any case there are no enforceable consequences on doing so. Unfortunately our government is so weak loads of interest groups have lots of leverage on it, including SGAE yes but also independentist political parties. The ministers are notoriously incompetent, especially the newly appointed culture ministry. Worth noting the minister is a movie director and has many ties on different pressure groups linked in one way or another to the SGAE.

Re:Duh. (2, Informative)

marcansoft (727665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322880)

If something isn't illegal then it's legal. Some people call it the "right to a private copy", but this is questionable - there's no such "right" spelled out. Instead, the law simply sets up the illegality of copies sold for a profit. So it's not a right or guaranteed to be legal by the law, but it's legal.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30323546)

You are both wrong. Private copy is a right guaranteed by law.

Real Decreto Legislativo 1/1996, de 12 de abril, por el que se aprueba el Texto Refundido de la Ley de Propiedad Intelectual, regularizando, aclarando y armonizando las disposiciones legales vigentes sobre la materia

Artículo 31. Reproducciones provisionales y copia privada.

1. No requerirán autorización del autor los actos de reproducción provisional a los que se refiere el artículo 18 que, además de carecer por sí mismos de una significación económica independiente, sean transitorios o accesorios y formen parte integrante y esencial de un proceso tecnológico y cuya única finalidad consista en facilitar bien una transmisión en red entre terceras partes por un intermediario, bien una utilización lícita, entendiendo por tal la autorizada por el autor o por la ley.

2. No necesita autorización del autor la reproducción, en cualquier soporte, de obras ya divulgadas cuando se lleve a cabo por una persona física para su uso privado a partir de obras a las que haya accedido legalmente y la copia obtenida no sea objeto de una utilización colectiva ni lucrativa, sin perjuicio de la compensación equitativa prevista en el artículo 25, que deberá tener en cuenta si se aplican a tales obras las medidas a las que se refiere el artículo 161. Quedan excluidas de lo dispuesto en este apartado las bases de datos electrónicas y, en aplicación del artículo 99.a), los programas de ordenador.

Re:Duh. (1)

c0p0n (770852) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324992)

While you're technically right, you're somewhat wrong. The law allows this by omission. "Copia privada" only applies if you make a copy from legally sourced media. A film downloaded from thepiratebay is not legally sourced media, nor is it illegal either (see my second paragraph). What the law states, on the paragraphs of it you copied, is that in the case of the user making a copy of their bitchney spears CD, the user is not obliged to pay extra to the copyright holders if there's no profit to be made, and within this they can play the copy to their heart's content or pass on the copy to someone else. I believe they call this "fair use" in the US.

Those two paragraphs create a loophole. I can copy my DVD and give that copy to someone else, this person obtained the copy legally so they can make a copy for someone else ad infinitum (eg p2p). Since all copies have to have an origin on an original DVD/CD/whatever their owner made a copy of, the law allows basically people to download with no limits but it does so not explicitly.

The exception seems to be recordings (ie cinema recordings) as in that case the origin copy was made illegally. There're probably a few more cases as well.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30323974)

There is such a right spelled out, in the Intellectual Property Law, article 31.2. Only it's not a exactly "right", since it's legally described as a limit to the author's exclusive right to allow the making of copies of his/her works. But that "limit" is a way to make use of our right (granted by the Constitution) to access cultural works, and almost all rights are limits to other rights (freedom of speech vs. honor), so even its status as a "limit" or as a "right" is debatable. What is NOT debatable is the fact that copying (and that includes downloading) copyrighted works for private, non-profit use is legal in Spain.

Re:Duh. (1)

marcansoft (727665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324908)

Ah, law, that sneaky confusing bastard. At least everyone seems to agree on the fundamental issue though, which is that copying non-software copyrighted works for private, non-profit use is legal.

Software gets a separate treatment, you can make backup copies but you can't share it around, even "privately" (this is something too many people fail to mention - lots of clueless people associate software/videogame/etc piracy with the SGAE and the levies, when they have little to do with each other). This is why I do discourage and do not support videogame piracy, for those who (formerly) know me from the Wii homebrew development community.

Re:Duh. (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323150)

>>>The SGAE is nothing new, they're the usual corrupt mafia-like organization that you'd expect. They're just trying to screw over both consumers and artists as much as they can. They'd love to have it both ways (making downloads illegal and keeping the levies).
>>>

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The world would be a better place if the CEOs of SGAE, RIAA, MPAA, CRIA, and so on were executed by a mob of citizens. I guarantee you'd have a hard time finding a new CEO to replace the dead one. Scare the suits into submission.

Re:Duh. (1)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323434)

Nonetheless, there is constant FUD claiming that "pirating" music and movies is illegal and will get you jailed (there are some pretty ridiculous advertising campaigns by the SGAE)

I'd say it cuts both ways. Every time this subject comes up the only real FUD I constantly read is how evil people are for wanting to be compensated for their work. They then turn around and complain about not being fairly compensated by their employer. Pot, kettle, pirates. Go figure.

Ultimately, piracy translates into loss of income for someone. And contrary to pirate's popular myth, its not always multinational, multi billion dollar companies. Many photographers, artists, writers, and developers are as small as one man shops. At the end of the day, piracy is literally preventing a profit or putting companies (as in people) out of business.

If you pirate anything, I also presume you never accept payment for *any* work you do - otherwise you'd be a huge jackass and hypocrite. And of course, stealing stocks and bonds is also okay in your book, as is counterfeiting. Until people realize piracy is hurting businesses (that's people people!), they are forcing the creation of the only option businesses have - to raise the bar by making theft more painful. I'm not saying I agree with the bill - I don't - but what do you expect when you steal more than a mugger in Time Square. Get it through your thick heads, stealing is not helping anyone but you, the pirate, and it hurts everyone else that matters. Just like insurance fraud and shop lifting, we all pay higher prices because of piracy.

Re:Duh. (1)

[rvr] (93881) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323572)

"And contrary to pirate's popular myth, its not always multinational, multi billion dollar companies. Many photographers, artists, writers, and developers are as small as one man shops".

In the later case, their main problem is not piracy, but amateurs and copyleft/CC authors who freely distribute their creations on the net. In the days of digital cameras, blogs, e-books and social networks, almost *everybody is an author*, who compete for attention.

Re:Duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30324154)

Then you're misunderstanding it. The problem is not compensating anyone for their work, the problem is compensating them for nothing (in Spain, the compensation is paid both if you make copies of copyrighted works and if you don't, it's also paid multiple times for the same copy, and it's split among authors in a rather questionable fashion) while being insulted (the authors, and you as well, call us pirates despite the fact that we are not so since we're doing nothing illegal) and seeing how they attempt to reduce our rights and freedoms.

BTW, what you (incorrectly in this case) call "piracy" does not necessarily equal loss of income (in fact there are several studies that suggest the exact opposite), and loss of income does not necessarily equal prevention of profit or putting anything out of business. But even if it did, it's not really our concern. Or should we put a levy on flour just in case we use it to make our own bread, in order to prevent bread makers from losing income? If your business model is outdated and as a result of that you lose money, you have two choices: either you quit (or not, but eventually disappear because you don't offer anything interesting enough), or you adapt your business to reality.

Good for them! (1)

MathiasRav (1210872) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322176)

I couldn't imagine such a thing happening where I live (Denmark). I hadn't seen it coming in Spain, but this is awesome. Makes me believe in a sane legal system - albeit a futile world view - maybe I oughta move to Spain?

Re:Good for them! (3, Interesting)

Beriaru (954082) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322458)

Dont!
We're sailing fast to fiscal bankruptcy. You don't want to stay near Spain when the situation explodes.
The future for Spain is very uncertain, but oscillates between Somalization and Police State.

Re:Good for them! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322598)

Sure... you keep spreading that shit. I mean, things aren't ok, but the skies aren't falling. And tell the british and the USA about a Police State, Spain it's not even close to those ones.

Re:Good for them! (1)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323284)

Yes and no. The UK is ahead in video surveillance (although it's not as exaggerated as many people on /. seem to believe); the US has been giving a surprising amount of power to the DHS; but only in one of the three countries you mentioned do people have to register their address with the local police. "Police state" is less a spectrum and more a set of attributes, and comparing different subsets objectively isn't easy.

Re:Good for them! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30326736)

The UK is ahead in video surveillance (although it's not as exaggerated as many people on /. seem to believe)

Uh, what? You've never been in the UK, have you? Either that, or you live there and have already been desensitized to it.

Re:Good for them! (1)

alegrepublic (83799) | more than 4 years ago | (#30328460)

Yes and no. The UK is ahead in video surveillance (although it's not as exaggerated as many people on /. seem to believe); the US has been giving a surprising amount of power to the DHS; but only in one of the three countries you mentioned do people have to register their address with the local police. "Police state" is less a spectrum and more a set of attributes, and comparing different subsets objectively isn't easy.

Let me guess... This third country is the USA: I must register my address within 10 days of moving or face deportation. My fault, since I am just a lowly permanent resident and not a citizen. Fortunately, my son is a US citizen, and he did not have to register his address with the federal government, just with the state government. He has to carry his state-issued school ID at all times while in the school premises and show it to any school official who requests it for any reason. And in our state school attendance is mandatory. Americans sometimes forget that police in the USA comes under many different names: department of motor vehicles, board of education, citizen and immigration service, bureau of investigation, fire marshall, social services and ... police.

Wellcome to China. (4, Interesting)

Tei (520358) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322188)

"JesusEncinar "Vais a hacer que internet en España sea como China?" pregunta @iescolar. Responden: "Ya lo es""

The blogger ask if "You guys will make internet work in Spain like in China?".
The ministry representant "It already work like that".

note: to be honest, I don't see evil on some pages bloqued (terrorist stuff), so theres some blocking on the spanish ISP. But china works on a more serius "lets filter internet based on a bias" stuff. Comparing China with Spain is madness.

Re:Wellcome to China. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322222)

The point is (I'm also in Spain), that the proposal states that if a website hosts illegal contents...:

- If the server of that website is in Spain, it will be asked to remove the contents. If it refuses to do it, it will be taken down without a court or a judge involved
- If the server is abroad (here comes the fun part), the Anti-Piracy comission will ask THE SPANISH ISPs (Telefonica, Ono, etc) to BLOCK ACCESS to that website

This easily means that people from spain would not be able to access sites such as megaupload or rapidshare. This means that the Internet seen from Spain would be different when seen from another country.

And this definitely smells like China's firewall.

(sorry for poor english)

Re:Wellcome to China. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322418)

I see the Anti-piracy to be sued for damages very quickly...

Re:Wellcome to China. (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323224)

>>>- If the server is abroad, the Anti-Piracy comission will ask THE SPANISH ISPs to BLOCK ACCESS

And then the blocked websites will bring a lawsuit against Spain (Rapidshare v. Spain) in an EU court for violations of the Lisbon Treaty and Charter of Rights. The EU justices will rule against Spain's law and strike it down. At least that's how it would work here in the US

Re:Wellcome to China. (1)

gerddie (173963) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322316)

note: to be honest, I don't see evil on some pages blocked (terrorist stuff),

The problem is, who defines what is terrorist stuff? When I write that Zapatero should go to hell? (Not that the PP would be any better) If you start blocking one page, the call for more is imminent, and it's even worse because it's not public what is blocked and why, so one can not check if they reason why its blocked is true. Besides, someone who wants to find the information will find it (VPN, proxies in other countries ... you get the idea).

so theres some blocking on the Spanish ISP.

Indeed? Damn.

Re:Wellcome to China. (1)

Tei (520358) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322586)

"The problem is, who defines what is terrorist stuff?"

Judges. Thats the point of the angry people. Moving the ability to block pages from judges to burocrats is a dangerous move.

Re:Wellcome to China. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322930)

Terrorism in Spain is short for Basque left, whether involved in terrorism or not. Spanish judges are known for consistent decisions against ethnic minorities regardless of their conservative/progressive allignment.

Oh, in case you don't know, the Spanish king murdered his brother and was involved in the initial stage of the 23F coup.

Re:Wellcome to China. (1)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322518)

Comparing China with Spain is madness.

Apparently the representative of the ministry doesn't think so.

If forsee a big rise in.. (3, Insightful)

RotateLeftByte (797477) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322336)

Domains registered in

    Andorra
    Gibraltar

If this goes through.

Re:If forsee a big rise in.. (3, Interesting)

miguelactico (1637151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322464)

It may occur, but it will be a temporally solution. Did you hear about how OSCE forced the "fiscal paradises" to account? It will be also happen with countries oblivious to IP. The fight is within these countries, not outside.

Re:If forsee a big rise in.. (1)

who knows my name (1247824) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322720)

Don't count on Gibraltar, I'm sure the UK government would apply significant pressure to them.

Re:If forsee a big rise in.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30326890)

dude the Spanish gov has no power over domains registered in Gibraltar. It might affect people in Gibraltar if sites were blocked by ISP's because most packets have to hop through Spain to get to Gib.

Prime minister?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322340)

I live in Spain and had no idea whe had a prime minisrer. I allways thought that even if we had a monarch we had a goverment president. Wich is, like or not , Zapatero.

Stop saying piracy (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322342)

Moronic journalists and rabid RIAA monkeys may like to use the word piracy, but it is the wrong word. We're talking about copyright infringement or theft.

Piracy is what people with guns do which causes real harm to real people.

I haven't heard of anyone sailing up to a ship full of data and demanding copies at gunpoint.

We on Slashdot at least ought to know the difference.

Tonight, on Weekend Update... (1)

bbbaldie (935205) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322356)

Generalissimo Fransisco Franco is still dead...WAIT A MINUTE!! HE'S BEGUN STIRRING!!!

Re:Tonight, on Weekend Update... (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322504)

What is 60 years within the big picture of things?

Now, I will admit that I just woke up. (2, Interesting)

ZorbaTHut (126196) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322434)

But did anyone else read that as "but [the government] still will search for ways to fight Internet privacy"?

Re:Now, I will admit that I just woke up. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322494)

But did anyone else read that as "but [the government] still will search for ways to fight Internet privacy"?

You mean that's not what it says?

Update: President Rodriguez Zapatero reactions (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322452)

Everything in the timeline is correct, but there's an important update [muycomputer.com] .

Spain's President, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, has guaranteed that "nothing is going to be closed" in Internet. "No webpage, no blog", in a recent press conference in the Palacio de la Moncloa. "If (the draft for the Sustainable Economy Act) has been interpreted as if there is a chance to close the sites on the Internet, I say from now on: under no circumstances will be this possible".

The report in english, translated by Google [google.com] .

Re:Update: President Rodriguez Zapatero reactions (1)

Meumeu (848638) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322576)

Spain's President, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero,

Spain's president? seriously?

Re:Update: President Rodriguez Zapatero reactions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322954)

Here in Spain everybody calls the Prime Minister "Presidente", for some reason.

Re:Update: President Rodriguez Zapatero reactions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30325776)

Spain's President, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero,

Spain's president? seriously?

The President of the Government of Spain (Spanish: Presidente del Gobierno de España), usually known in English as the Prime Minister of Spain,[1] is the Spanish head of government. [wikipedia.org]

From Wikipedia:

The Spanish head of government is known, in Spanish, as the Presidente del Gobierno. Literally translated, the title is "President of the Government"[3] or alternatively "Chairman of the Government",[4] but nevertheless the office-holder is commonly referred to in English as the "prime minister", the usual term for the head of government in a parliamentary system. However the Spanish for 'prime minister' is primer ministro; thus, for example, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is the Primer Ministro del Reino Unido, not the Presidente del Gobierno.

In Spain the head of the government is often called simply Presidente, meaning 'President'. More than once this has caused embarrassing errors among foreign authorities, such as mistaking Spain for a republic. For example Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida, mistakenly referred to the head of government as the "President of the Spanish Republic" during a visit to Spain in 2003.[5]

Re:Update: President Rodriguez Zapatero reactions (1)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 4 years ago | (#30323020)

Of what worth is his word?

Never trust a law to not permit something if it doesn't forbid it. If it grants someone the power to do something, even if they have no intention of using it, they will use it eventually.

removing judges... (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322462)

The sad thing is.. some journalists are now saying internet users are basically zealots because we are still angry when the government has already said that the law isn't intended for harming users or bloggers, only those who make profit in their pages with p2p links...

Of course, they have said that, but the text in the law doesn't specify that, and that's the only thing that matters. The law explicitly allows for a comission to shut down any page they consider violating copyright.. isn't that the main argument of the scientology church in the USA for their censorship? and in this case is even worse, because at least the Scientology needs a judge for that. It doesn't matter what they say, it's what is written in the law that matters.

Also, the SGAE has been suing users and webmasters for years and at the moment they have lost all p2p cases, because the judges consider sharing links is completely legal. There has been just one case where the acussed admitted guilty as an agreement with SGAE, because they told him they just wanted something like a win for the press, and asked him for about 100 euros. He could have won, but he was just a student and didn't want to mess with the shitty legal system.

Few weeks ago SGAE ordered to close a site that shared music e-links. The judge closed it without even tell anything to the webmaster, who was notified only when he saw his page blocked. The webmaster protested and now the judge has ordered to re-open the page and to fine SGAE for all processal costs and an aditional fine for "bad faith".

So, they want to make a committee for closing sites the judges don't want to close...

(sorry if my english is pretty bad... in spain we are pretty bad learning other languages)

Re:removing judges... (1)

DarkMage0707077 (1284674) | more than 4 years ago | (#30329506)

It's alright. As a citizen of the US, I, too, have problems understanding and learning English, so I sympathize with your plight.

Chewbacca laws (1)

puefale (874140) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322486)

I realized that Spanish goverment is using the same principle as Chewabacca defense [southparkstudios.com] on laws, we are having a lot of these Chewbacca laws [google.es] in last years .
It's high risk political practice, even some electors dead by head implosion...

.. will search for ways to fight Internet piracy? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322496)

Last time the gov of Spain had "issues" they needed to solve with less "lawyers" the Spanish Interior Ministry funded the G.A.L.(Grupos Antiterroristas de Liberación).
A death squad to go after ETA.
Ignore the 3rd letter from your ISP and you might have Portuguese or French mercenaries at your door.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci [wikipedia.org] ón

Re:.. will search for ways to fight Internet pirac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322946)

That's not the gov of Spain's way, that's the PSOE's way. PSOE and mafia are equals and they control the police. That's why soon after they got elected, a fireproof skybreaker was destroyed by a fire [elpasmo.net] with no investigation done and no questions answered [amnesiacompartida.net] . It just happened some vital pieces of evidence were stored in it, which caused some mafiosso from Marbella [burbuja.info] to got free from jail for lack of evidence. And the Windsor "incident" hasn't been the only one.

Hmm... (1)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 4 years ago | (#30322554)

a Commission dependent of the Ministry of Culture to take down websites without a court order, in cases of Intellectual Property piracy.

Quickly, more than 50,000 blogs and sites re-published the manifesto

Such a waste of potential irony.

Ob python (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30322882)

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

I didn't expect (1)

WhiteDragon (4556) | more than 4 years ago | (#30324766)

a sort of Spanish Inquisition!

Democracy (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#30325296)

Quickly, more than 50,000 blogs and sites re-published the manifesto. On Thursday morning, the Ministry of Culture Ángeles González Sinde (former president of the Spanish Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences) organized a meeting with a group of Internet experts and signers of the Manifesto. The meeting was narrated in real time via Twitter and concluded without any agreement. On Thursday afternoon, the Prime Minister's staff had a private meeting with the Ministry of Culture and some party members (who also expressed their opposition to the draft). Finally, Spain Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero announced in a press meeting that the text will be changed and a court order will continue to be a requirement

My congratulations to Spaniards: your country seems to be a genuine, properly functional democracy. Please keep it that way - it's a dying breed these days!

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