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Gnome Switches Nautilus Back To Browser Mode

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the open-in-new-window dept.

GNOME 311

An anonymous reader writes "In one of the do-the-developers-actually-use-their-own-software decisions in the Linux Desktop World, back in 2004 Gnome switched to the 'Spatial' view by default with their Nautilus file manager opening a new window with each new folder viewed. Many derided the decision as poor design or as being different for the sake of being different. Well, after five long years the Gnome powers that be have decided to switch back to browser mode."

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Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (5, Interesting)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550100)

It does appear that Nautilus' people are taking many many lessons from (let's not say ripping off) KDE's Dolphin. I mean, if you compare Nautilus' demo screenshot [gnome.org] and you use KDE's Dolphin [kde.org] (please ignore the command line at the bottom and info dock widget at the right) on a daily basis you will be hard pressed to find any differences.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550158)

(please ignore the command line at the bottom and info dock widget at the right)

you will be hard pressed to find any differences.

You're absolutely right! If you ignore the differences then you will be hard pressed to find any differences!

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (2, Informative)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550212)

The only differences between that pair of screenshots consists on a couple of dock window widgets which are pretty much never used on KDE's Dolphin and are turned off by default. I use KDE exclusively on a daily basis and I had to look at the screenshot to learn that KDE's Dolphin had an Info dock window and if you happen to use Dolphin then the window config you will get will be exactly the same config as the one Nautilus is sporting on it's screenshot.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550202)

Yes, they have copied the "split view" (one of the killer features of dolphin/konqueror).

Now Gnome needs to fix the file chooser dialog so that it can 1) have views other than "list view", 2) view generate thumbnails of all kind of files that nautilus can (PDFs, videos, etc) 3) a list view that can order the files by something that is not modification date or size (for example, the type of archive) 4) a list view with BIG icons, not miniatures that are so tiny that you can't tell what picture is in the thumbnail and need a ugly extra panel on the right side of the dialog to show the preview

The main reason why Gnome can't do all those things is why the file chooser dialog is not a "gnome file chooser dialog", but a "GTK file chooser dialog". The KDE guys don't use the QT file chooser dialog (which exists), they use a KDE file chooser dialog that can use any part of KDE (including parts of konqueror/dolphin) while the gtk dialog can't use nautilus or anything besides the basic GTK building blocks. They have been adding some hacks to avoid the need of writing a decent file chooser, but it still sucks and misses a lot of functionality.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (5, Interesting)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550244)

view generate thumbnails of all kind of files that nautilus can (PDFs, videos, etc)

With GIO, the file chooser can load any thumbnails that are available, but Gtk+ doesn't actually have the architectural pieces for doing thumbnailing itself (since it's quite a lot of specialized code that's not widely needed). But in most cases, Nautilus has already generated the thumbnails you require anyways.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (2, Informative)

FooBarWidget (556006) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550368)

Maybe because there are only so many ways to design a file manager? They've only been around for, what, 40 years?

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (1)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550454)

Features such as implementing the separate directory levels in a path as buttons, splitting the directory view pane in the same window, implementing both a "places" and a directory tree view and adding a toolbar to let the user select how to display the files are features which are not around for 40 years. If that wasn't enough, implementing them in the exact same way to the point of even mimicking the layout which was premièred by Dolphin a hand full of years ago cannot be explained as a 40 year old tradition. Nautilus is being made into a Dolphin clone and the screenshots speak for themselves.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (1)

Curtman (556920) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550610)

A dolphin clone? By reverting to a behavior that Nautilus had before Dolphin even existed? How's that work exactly?

They're all clones of Midnight Commander if you want to play that game.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (2, Insightful)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550630)

I think you don't get his point. He's not talking about the change from spatial to browser mode, he's talking about the overall new UI, which you have to admit looks like nearly a perfect copy of Dolphin.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (1)

Curtman (556920) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550666)

It also looks a lot like the way Nautilus looked 6 years ago.. And how Windows Explorer looks, and looked then.

Hello Nautilus (1)

patiodragon (920102) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550732)

GOODBYE, pop-up hell!

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (1)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550750)

6 years ago, Nautilus didn't have the split view, the tabs, the bread crumb buttons or the Places panel. Windows Explorer still doesn't have some of those features to this day.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550634)

Features such as implementing the separate directory levels in a path as buttons, splitting the directory view pane in the same window, ...

NextSTEP [apfelwiki.de] had that kind of stuff ages ago.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (5, Informative)

ta bu shi da yu (687699) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550470)

Well, the rationale for changing from spatial to browser mode in Nautilus is because much of the functionality is now being implemented in Gnome-Shell.

From the following post [gnome.org] by Alexander Larsson:

The current ideas behind the design of nautilus is that its the main way to access files. By this I mean everyday stuff like finding and opening your files, rather than "file management" (reorganizing files, copying files, etc). This together with the desktop having links to important places (as well as being a repository for currently worked on files) makes this a sort of "desktop shell" in the sense that its how apps are launched to a large degree. This is also why spatial mode is the default for the desktop icons (and why browser mode is availibile in the menus as "File Browser" for those times you want to
do intense file management).

However, in the gnome-shell design a lot of the things nautilus is currently used for (locating and opening files) is integrated into the
shell and mixed together with the ui for locating and starting applications. This makes a lot of sense to me as launching applications and opening files with an application are closely related actions, and a merged UI could do a lot better than the current sort of double UI with the panel launching apps and the desktop launching files. The shell also wants to de-emphatize the desktop as a place for storing files in use and launching links, for good reasons (read the design paper[1] for details).

This leads to two initial conclusions from my side. First of all we should disable the drawing of the desktop by default. Second we should default to browser mode. This might seem a bit suprising (sic) since I've generally been on the spatial side. But, this has mainly been because I've seen nautilus as much more used as a kind of file activation shell rather than a hardcore file manager, and when that changes the rationale for spatial mode change too.

Re:Nautilus following KDE's Dolphin? (2, Interesting)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550792)

"please ignore the command line at the bottom and info dock widget at the right"

You really couldn't bring yourself to simply toggle the terminal and info windows off with View --> Panels --> Terminal and View --> Panels --> Information or using the F11 and F4 hotkeys to make your point sans caveat?

Are you sure you are not a Gnome user? (sorry Linus; I couldn't resist, and lighten up mods. It's a playful / tongue in cheek chide, not a troll or flamebait)

Oh yeah. emacs sux and vi rulezz!!!

Thougt it was default (2, Informative)

sorennielsen (620697) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550108)

Didn't even notice. Haven't used a distro that didn't have "browsermode" set as default.

Is it really anything *new*? (4, Informative)

hubert.lepicki (1119397) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550110)

I don't know any modern distribution that is using spatial mode for Nautilus windows. Ubuntu tried that and it was only 1 or 2 releases they kept this default setting. Can you help me out with listing distributions that this change will affect somehow?

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

Norsefire (1494323) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550114)

Distros that don't include Gnome by default and use the defaults when it is installed or built. I assume Gentoo, Arch, *BSD et al. Might be wrong though.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

rutter (1430885) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550134)

Distros that don't include Gnome by default and use the defaults when it is installed or built. I assume Gentoo, Arch, *BSD et al. Might be wrong though.

In arch they use the gnome defaults. So if you install gnome nautilus is in this "Spatial" mode, which renders nautilus completely useless. It is easy to change it to the browser mode that you might be used to as default in ubuntu or suse, but that doesn't justify it being the default. I'm glad the developers have finally realised what idiots they have been and have changed it. Not that it matters much to me as I use pcmanfm.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (5, Informative)

Torrance (1599681) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550136)

Debian uses spatial by default. I know, because it's about the first thing I change on a fresh install.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

byteframe (924916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550174)

gnomeslackbuild.org uses most, or all available defaults.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

Andorin (1624303) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550176)

I'm pretty sure Debian does this. When I installed Lenny on both of my computers and got GNOME on there, I had to disable the 'spatial mode' option because it was ugly and inconvenient.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

gbarules2999 (1440265) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550654)

Fedora.

Re:Is it really anything *new*? (1)

jon3k (691256) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550820)

Fedora did up until at least 11, I haven't installed 12 yet.

Does it matter? (2, Interesting)

delirium of disorder (701392) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550118)

I only saw the weird "open a new window" mode once, I think it was on Solaris 10. Ubuntu, Opensolaris, etc all seam to have configured gnome to use the normal "browser" mode. If the distros set the gnome configuration, does it really matter what the default is?

Re:Does it matter? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550188)

Fedora (a very popular gnome centric distro) has nautilus set to open in a new window.

Re:Does it matter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550402)

so does Debian

Those who like the new-window-every-folder view... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550126)

Should be forced to use a browser that opens a new window every time a hyperlink is clicked

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (2, Insightful)

Englabenny (625607) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550164)

Should be forced to use a browser that opens a new window every time a hyperlink is clicked

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand **spatial** mode. I don't want a spatial idea of all the pages on the internet, my head is not quite big enough for that, but I do like my spatial nautilus.

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (1)

mspohr (589790) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550266)

Actually, that's how I have my FireFox set up... opens each hyperlink in a new tab (not window). I do this so I can keep reading then go on to check out the links. Also, many times I want to view more than one link from a page and this lets me keep the page open to find the other links.

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550478)

I use the middle button (wheel) for that, but it's no my default setting. Navigating through a site with that would be exasperating.

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (1)

jon3k (691256) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550828)

you know you can just hold control and click the link with the left mouse button?

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550268)

They should use Amaya.

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550458)

I hate people who don't share my preferences and I want to punish them.

Fixt

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550462)

Not sure why this is moderated as interesting. The point of a spacial file browser is to use your spacial memory (which is big, and is the reason why you can find things all around the house or on a messy desk easily) to manage your files. Every time you open a folder, it opens in the same place on your screen. This lets you mentally associate screen locations with files.

The problem with spacial browsers is that they don't scale beyond a certain point. They were great on older machines where you'd only have a few hundred files, but managing a thousand files with a spacial UI will just confuse the user. A good compromise would be to use spacial mode for documents and an explorer for everything else.

Re:Those who like the new-window-every-folder view (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550620)

Every time you open a folder, it opens in the same place on your screen.

The 1024x600px screen built into my laptop, or the 1360x768px screen I use when I take it home?

Now for List Mode... (4, Insightful)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550128)

Nautilus and most other file browsers also default to Icon view, which is fine if you have only about 5 files on your computer, which was probably true for Windows for Workgroups 3.1, but these days List view should be the default.

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

Suki I (1546431) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550190)

I *heart* that .sig!

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

byteframe (924916) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550198)

I completely agree. I would like that the List Column Gui Element (the thing you click on, to sort by that file attribute) auto-size itself to no larger than the longest filename. ehh nautilus browser people know what I'm trying to express.

Re:Now for List Mode... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550256)

Absolutely. Everyone I know, on EVERY environment (windows explorer, KDE, gnome, ...) always changes the default to detail view.

Why on earth isn't the the default? It's what most everyone prefers, and it gives you an actual useful view if you have more than a few files. Finding them by icon is great for 4 things, but not so great otherwise. It just looks unprofessional to have icon view as the default - that's not how people use their computers in the real world. It's great in some academic "simple is best!" theory, but it's not what people really want.

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

RichiH (749257) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550350)

Nautilus and most other file browsers also default to Icon view, which is fine if you have only about 5 files on your computer, which was probably true for Windows for Workgroups 3.1, but these days List view should be the default.

Unless you prefer to keep a proper and useful layout of your data in which case icon view is a lot better.
And as soon as there are more than 20 files/directories in a directory, I am on the shell, anyway.

I.e.: It all depends on the particular use case.

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

Sven Tuerpe (265795) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550412)

Nautilus and most other file browsers also default to Icon view, which is fine if you have only about 5 files on your computer, which was probably true for Windows for Workgroups 3.1, but these days List view should be the default.

If you have so many nits to pick, why don't you just pay someone to do it right for you? OSS projects aren't in a position to give you a usable system, they can only provide you with raw code. Someone has to take this code and turn it into something useful and usable. This can be you or somebody working for you.

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550476)

Learn to organize your files better. I use list view on long folders, but you do realize that most filesystems are hierarchical, yes? You shouldn't be poking around in system directories with the GUI as a rule, anyway. The GUI is for managing data files, not the whole system. Of course, you won't manipulate many files (save config files) when you administer a modern system; that is done through APIs, e.g. dpkg.

Re:Now for List Mode... (1)

mR.bRiGhTsId3 (1196765) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550616)

Its hard to keep your folder organized. I used to be really big on keeping my folders organized, but in my own personal experience the hierarchical thing doesn't always work nicely in my data. There are overlaps, or adding new files changes my conception about what the hierarchy should be. That is why the the advent of spotlight, windows search that actually works, and the various linux indexing services have been a godsend. I can keep things semi-organized and the indexers still let me find stuff if I'm not quite sure where I would have put it in my organization at some later point.

Re:Now for List Mode... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550662)

Fucking hell, is somebody planning to remove all the settings from the preferences dialog or something?

Considering that this is GNOME we're talking about, I'm guessing yes.

Too late (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550130)

Linux has been on the desktop o long that Windows 7 using linux zealots don't even bother anymore. Gnome is for Gniggers.

universal preferences (1)

StripedCow (776465) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550156)

obviously what one likes, the other may not like.

perhaps there should be some "universal" preference file format...

for example, a file ".preferences" in your home directory, that every distribution and window manager can read, so that you only have to copy that file after you've installed a new distro. basically the file contains things such as: "when i click a link, a new window should open". or: "i like to have 4 virtual desktops", etc.

saves a lot of tweedling with the settings...

Re:universal preferences (1)

djsmiley (752149) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550170)

But that would involve working with those crazy KDE devs and stuff!?! ;)

Plus it'd only end up like html where each DE handles a setting differently anyway, even if they agree to handle them the same.

Nice idea, but I found once I got used to gnome I've just stuck with it (I tried kde awhile ago and had lots of trouble and never really bothered changing again) - Plus I haven't yet had gnome drop all my settings upgrading from one version to another, so its not really something I care about...

Re:universal preferences (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550214)

You're supposed to "twiddle" not tweedle, I think that's your problem...

Re:universal preferences (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550260)

It'd never work because different pieces of software have different kinds of capabilities. You could eventually reach some shared common functionality, but the edge cases (and the effort to bring it up that far) would most likely piss off users more than any utility it brings.

There have been some efforts towards moving to a unified settings system (see DConf/GSettings), but even then, each application is responsible for its own settings.

Re:universal preferences (1)

StripedCow (776465) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550436)

It'd never work because different pieces of software have different kinds of capabilities.

<sarcasm>
You mean like webbrowsers have different capabilities? But... that would mean that HTML would never work and reach widespread acceptance...
</sarcasm>

(hey even the sarcasm tag seems to have been widely accepted)

Not a bad idea... (1)

RichiH (749257) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550464)

That is something FreeDesktop could fix. Though please please please use a path like

    ~/.etc/desktop/preferences

I suggest you write to their mailing list about it and see what you get. If you don't, please reply to this post and I will.

Re:Not a bad idea... (1)

StripedCow (776465) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550528)

i think in order for somebody to pick up the idea, it needs to be elaborated a bit more, by giving examples and perhaps even by writing an example preferences file... also the reason for the idea should be explained very well...

i'm a little too busy for that (yes even on x-mas day), but if you'd like to do it, then kudos, and thanks!

Re:Not a bad idea... (1)

StripedCow (776465) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550540)

if nobody picks up the idea, then another solution is to develop a tool that reads this universal file format and writes the KDE and GNOME configuration files according to the preferences... if this tool reaches acceptance, then perhaps after a while the window managers will add support for the file format...

Re:Not a bad idea... (1)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550764)

I actually prefer Apple's ~/Library/* layout. Dotfiles are nice because they don't show up in the file manager but they also suck because they don't show up in the file manager. Also, if you use ls -a ~ you get a screenful of dotfiles mixed with regular directories. Apple did a very sane thing (probably done by NeXT before) by giving you one regular directory where all the administrative stuff goes. It doesn't clutter up your home directory and it allows you to easily interact with the files within without having to jump through hoops. It also mimics the global Library and the difference between a globally-installed plugin and one installed for just one user is whether it's installed into /Library or ~/Library.

long live spatial mode! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550178)

It's much better than browser mode. Almost no buttons and clutter, very simple navigation. All you have to learn is to open all windows with the middle button (open new folder in same window).

Browser mode is clunky as hell. Way to much cruft in the window. If you want KDE clutter use KDE

Re:long live spatial mode! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550220)

Almost no buttons and clutter, very simple navigation.

Until you try to use it.

Re:long live spatial mode! (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550264)

As long as you can configure around it we can both be happy. Seriously, this is an article about the default (out of the box) state of a check box.

Corporates in the Gnome Foundation (5, Insightful)

hebertrich (472331) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550180)

Look 5 years ago indeed , in a gnome devel mailing list , we were a bunch to comment on that
and a few others .. like the dual mode in other file browsers at the time where we have two panes to
work with. Well .. lo and behold . a devel asked me why one would use a dual pane file manager.
I gave up on it at that point. I suspect the corporates running the Gnome Foundation have a lot to do
with most the bad design decisions and the stubbornness at making Gnome bad in general.
As far as im concerned .. if it takes 5 years to change a bad default .. by 2020 we should perhaps have
a delete command by default too :) Im cynical yes. But i loved gnome till 1.4 at 2.0 they hosed everything
that was truly good about it and made it into the lesser desktop. A shame.

Richard

Re:Corporates in the Gnome Foundation (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550352)

IMHO it's not 'corporates', it's developer group-think coupled with wilfully ignoring what damn near *everybody* is telling them.

When this was rolled out, the forums were *filled* with people complaining, people explaining exactly why it was a poor design choice, etc. But this was simply ignored because someone had a nice academic theory about why "spacial was more intuitive". Never mind that it wasn't, and that everyone hated it, and that it wasn't how people were used to computers working. They had a theory! All the users must be wrong!

Re:Corporates in the Gnome Foundation (1)

digitalhermit (113459) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550710)

I'm not defending Gnome in any way. Personally I've always found their defaults and UI design non-intuitive. However, one of the things I've always believed is that "ease of use" is more subjective than we imagine. People new to the Linux desktop may find it counter-intuitive compared to the Windows desktop they've used for years.

But imagine if we were blank slates with no pre-conceived notions of how a desktop should behave?

For example, when I sort things in a desk drawer, I don't put my pens near my printer because they both start with the same letter or they both put images on paper. I put labels on my DVDs and MiniDV tapes and I label the items themselves, not the box where I put them in. In short, I mix all types of media. The current desktop metaphor completely breaks this free-form approach that many of use have. I don't think it's a technical barrier; just that people are used to doing things a certain way.

So, though I don't agree with Gnome decisions I do give them credit for trying to do new things (as difficult and bizarre as those decisions can be).

Re:Corporates in the Gnome Foundation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550818)

"a devel asked me why one would use a dual pane file manager."

Then...

"I suspect the corporates running the Gnome Foundation"

Not only do you suspect "corporates" make bad decisions, but they also either hire bad devs OR they brainwash them into forgetting reasons for functionality AT LEAST. If a dev questioned dual pane, I think you have your answer right there.

As a 49 year old feminist grandmother (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550204)

I'm glad that gnome developers are no longer living in the museum of contemporary art and are making the default functionality logical for rational humanoids.

Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (3, Interesting)

rduke15 (721841) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550218)

I switched to Linux 4 months ago, and what I still miss is a file manager as good as Total Commander. Krusader seems to be the closest and most feature rich, but it just isn't as complete and as polished as Total Commander. And it crashes about once every few days. So sometimes, I have to start a WinXP VM, just to have the power and reliability of Total Commander.

In other words, I don't care so much for little details in Nautilus. It doesn't seem any worse than Windows Explorer, and seems better than the Mac Finder (which is the file manager that Nautilus resembles most). I just wish there would be more resources to improve Krusader.

(Midnight Commander is excellent in a console, and should be part of the base install of every distro)

Re:Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (4, Informative)

eqisow (877574) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550330)

What you want is an orthodox file manager [wikipedia.org] . There are plenty of other options on Linux besides the ones you mentioned, such as emelFM2 [emelfm2.net] , Gnome Commander [nongnu.org] , or Beesoft Commander [beesoft.pl] . Perhaps one of those will be more to your liking, though I personally find Krusader more than adequate.

Re:Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550786)

I really like Tux Commander [sourceforge.net] too.

Re:Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550346)

No need to switch to Windows VM. Total Commander works nicely under Wine (www.winehq.org)

Re:Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (2, Informative)

TeXMaster (593524) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550434)

I too miss Total Commander on Linux. I've heard reports of it working pretty decently under WINE, but I haven't tried it myself.

Krusader is indeed the best candidate to try and get something to the level of TC, but it really needs a lot of work. I really wish I had the time to grab the codebase and start hammering on those rough edges ...

Re:Still waiting for a Total Commander equivalent (2, Insightful)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550660)

Actually I personally in my long kde time always found Konqueror superior to total commander in everything except that much of the goodyness was hidden behind kio::slaves (sftp://blabla for instance)
and in shortcuts, you could reach various notworked filesystem you could split and tab as youd like and etc... but it took time to learn it, most of the functionality was not obvious.
I never missed total commander in Linux, on OSX however... sure there is pathfinder, but it is not the same!

It's .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550222)

a Christmas Miracle!

I use both spatial and browser mode (1)

Bigos (857389) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550230)

When I installed Linux I have changed default setting to spatial. And put on the panel an icon that will start nautilus in browser mode. Both modes have their advantages and this way I have the best of both worlds. I can't understand why people hate spatial mode. It is more flexible in laying out content than browser mode. If it is used properly it can make a lot of things easier. I wonder how many other ex-Amigans like spatial mode as well.

Re:I use both spatial and browser mode (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550496)

Because after having to close 20 unused windows while navigating, you are filled with murderous rage.

I don't mean it can't be useful ever, but as a default? Hell no.

Spatial FTW! (1)

OoberMick (674746) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550234)

I have to say I'm disappointed by this. I much prefer the simple interface of the spatial view.

Where was that file I was looking at earlier? Open folder, there is is exactly where it was the last time I was in this folder.

Oh well another simple interface lost to the bells and whistles brigade.

Re:Spatial FTW! (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550250)

Spatial will still be there. You can even change that behaviour from the configuration dialogue (how about that?). I assume that the split mode can be turned of by gconf or a configuration dialogue. If not, I won't be very happy.

Re:Spatial FTW! (1)

jsvendsen (1668031) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550404)

For now. Eventually, no longer the default, it will start to rot due to lack of programmer eyeballs. In a few years it will be removed from the codebase as unmaintainable cruft.

Sadly, this is the correct decision. It was a ballsy move by the GNOME developers to try to introduce this feature because they thought it was the Right Thing to do, but the world at large just didn't want to get on board.

Re:Spatial FTW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30550354)

Exactly, spacial is so simple and easy to use. When directory tree is large and complex a tree view ui become useless anyway. For such case the command line will always be better. When will the gtk/gimp/gnome devs will stop listing to those idiots windows/photoshop users that are just in for the cheap and cant see the weakness of there own favorite software...

Re:Spatial FTW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550562)

Isn't that just what your "most recently used files"-list is for?

NEWSFLASH (4, Insightful)

anonieuweling (536832) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550294)

Will we get another Slashdot newsflash when they fix the copy/cut situation?
Please see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47948 [gnome.org] for this age old 'unimportant' bug.
Even the basics take ages for them.

Re:NEWSFLASH (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550418)

If you find that feature so useful you are free to code it, but obviously the developers don't find that particular feature necessary or attractive enough to implement. Personally I could care less weather or not files I "cut" turned opaque, and until your post pointed it out I didn't even notice they don't. Sorry, but as a contributing developer to open source myself I strongly agree with this comment from the bug report you linked:

"> Why are 7+ year old bugs not prioritised?!

Because it's unimportant, because there's much more important stuff, because
there's no unlimited manpower. Because age does not say anything.
Feel free to provide a patch."

Re:NEWSFLASH (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550486)

Hey. The old "if you find that feature so useful you are free to code it, but obviously the developers don't find that particular feature necessary or attractive enough to implement".

Alternatively, he could switch to Windows, OS X or KDE. How many non-developer users want to use a desktop environment that has been designed for use solely for developers? I mean, it's not like C coders are genius UI developers!

Re:NEWSFLASH (1)

ta bu shi da yu (687699) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550494)

P.S. André Klapper, is that you?

coreutils (1)

reub2000 (705806) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550304)

Most of the time when I want to browse through my file system or copy files I'll use konsole.

kids these days (1)

Tumbleweed (3706) | more than 4 years ago | (#30550356)

I'm still hoping for a GUI version of FList from my VM/CMS days. *sigh*

Oh good. Maybe this question isn't off-topic then (1)

erroneus (253617) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550378)

How the hell do I change the default window size?! As it is, unless I provide a "--geometry" command line option, any time I open up a nautilus window, it is too small to view whatever I am looking at and needs to be expanded. Does anyone know how to change the default window size or how to tell it to remember the size or something?

Too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550386)

Love my Mac, will never switch back.

Re:Too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550504)

is that you cmdrdildo?

Nice gift for xmas (1)

surkum (664630) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550406)

Was the first thing I changed when I log in a new machine.

Suck it homeboy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550452)

Choke it down.

Spatial made sense (1)

Paul Jakma (2677) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550482)

I didn't like the switch to spatial at first, but after using it it became clear that the reasoning for it was sound - it's much better to use than browser mode. Annoyed it's going away, hope they retain the option to have nautilus use spatial mode.

The futility of HIGs is what it shows (4, Insightful)

Budenny (888916) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550550)

Back in the 80s there was some point in HIGs, and Apple back then was generally felt to lead the way. The reason was that there were, among your users, a very high proportion of new users. So we conflated ease of use with ease of learning, and it was not completely stupid, for much of the market using and learning were the same thing.

Now however HIGs have become part of the problem rather than part of the solution, because they make the implicit assumption that everyone works in the same way, and has the same basic skills. We just do not. And anyone who experiments a bit with end users will find this out in a flash. I have had people who loved spatial browsing because it might be cluttered, but they always knew where they were. Then there are people who love Gnome and the desktop and love to put all their files all over it where they can see them. And then you have the odd case of some totally non-technical person, who you try out with Fluxbox, and you get the reaction that this is great, this is how I always thought Linux was supposed to be, no clutter and very minimalist and above all fast. It turns out that hand edited menus and the explicit startup of the file manager are actually something some non-technical people welcome and find refreshing. Others of course will run a mile. One size does not fit all.

The Gnome ideal, that there is such a thing as the right way to set up a desktop, an application, is the problem. There simply is not, and when you take that approach, the penalty is that you inconvenience and impair working for at least one third of the people using it. Far beter to have a few broad choices, and then let people refine within it, and offer some guidelines. If you are not very computer familiar, start out with this, then see if, a while later, you want to move to this, and here is a very minimalist alternative.

HIGs are a snare and a delusion, very apt that they are sometimes rudely referred to as 'interface fascism'.

Familiarity for guest users (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550670)

The Gnome ideal, that there is such a thing as the right way to set up a desktop, an application, is the problem.

If you ever want to let guests use your machine without the UI utterly confusing them, or if you yourself are a guest (e.g. on a computer at a public library), there has to be a "right way" so that the guests have a frame of reference.

Ubuntu Gets Defaults Right (1)

assertation (1255714) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550552)

I've been using Linux at home for 10 years. Ubuntu is the first distro to get the choice of defaults right, something close to what is useful and what end users actually want.

why anyone would use gnome is another question (1, Insightful)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550598)

Its amazing how people agonise over minute features of software that hardly anyone actually uses in the real world. Linux has 4% or less of the desktop market and around half of that are gnome users. Its not a whole lot of people compared to Windows. This is not entirely due to Gnome or KDE but it has a lot to do with it. These systems are in general difficult to use and have not undergone the same useability testing that something like Windows has. Lets face it, windows just works while Linux is usually a pain in the ass to configure. This is due to the arrogance and elitism of its developers, especially its kernel developers. The fact that Linux has horrendously documented hardware APIs and that it has no stable driver binary interfaces and that getting anything to work is a huge mess of kernel header errors, compiler errors, etc. Do you really think grandma is going to be able to debug source code and figure out why some crazy driver doesnt install, when on Windows you just put in the disk, click install and it works? I have always said that the deployment of open source software would increase by 100X if we allowed there to be a stable binary driver ABI on linux and we made it easy for hardware developers to write drivers for it. It would make Linux far more practical and useable. Hardware developers put drivers through extensive QA testing to make sure it works well so it would be more reliable than open source drivers. But the binary drivers could speed up development of open source ones since the binary drivers could be back engineered by watching communication with them. Though, The fact is, people dont want to wait years for someone to back engineer some piece of hardware and the idea that hardware companies will provide the specs is unrealistic idealism, even with specs it can be months after Windows users have been able to use the hardware.

The UI developers have somehow created a UI system that somehow blows dozens of MB but actually provides less customisability and ease of use than Windows. Often important features that allow people to customise it are removed or don't exist because some developer decided they didn't use the feature and just didn't care that there might be someone else who used it. The key to developing is in offering many features and flexibility, but in laying it out so that most used features are up front. useability is all about layout not in few features. The system can be expert and average user friendly by simply allowing everything to be done with CLI or GUI and building software in a layered modular fashion with a user friendly layer on top of nitty gritty layers that the experts can directly work with.

Re:why anyone would use gnome is another question (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550782)

Do you really think grandma is going to be able to debug source code and figure out why some crazy driver doesnt install

No, she's going to pay someone else to do it for her. The freedom in free software is the freedom to pay any competent developer, not just the original publisher who may have a business reason to end-of-life a peripheral's driver to get people to re-buy.

when on Windows you just put in the disk, click install and it works?

On Windows, one is more likely to misplace the disc by the time he needs to reinstall, and driver discs for Windows 5.x (Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Server 2003) don't work on Windows 6.x (Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7).

Often important features that allow people to customise it are removed or don't exist because some developer decided they didn't use the feature and just didn't care that there might be someone else who used it.

Or the people who use the feature aren't willing to provide enough resources to anybody who can help maintain the feature. Every checkbox doubles the number of combinations and therefore increases the number of things that can go wrong.

Re:why anyone would use gnome is another question (2, Insightful)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550812)

Having a stable ABI ( which is something as a retailer I have suggested for years) would allow a penguin on the box and I predict would help Linux explode as it would solve the "Walmart problem" in that folks wouldn't have to study like it was a college entrance exam just to avoid the paperweight roulette game, but sadly it will never ever be. Why? Politics. It all comes down to RMS and his SCoN! (Source Code or Nothing!) brigade.

You see, if there was actually a stable ABI some manufacturers might actually pull an Nvidia and release drivers without code. While this would be a good thing, as those that completely ignore Linux now would at least have motivation to release drivers, penguins on the box would fix the Walmart problem, and word of mouth would quickly weed out the bad manufacturers, it would severely piss off those "Give us your specs!" and "Give us all the source code and we'll incorporate it in the kernel" zealots.

Never mind that this approach is ultimately fail because by the time the code trickles down from being approved by the kernel devs, who frankly should be maintaining the kernel and not printer drivers, to all the distros your hardware isn't being sold in stores anymore, but frankly making Linux easier is NOT something they care about. To them Linux is NOT an OS, but an ideology. To them it is all about "RMS style" freedom, where there can NEVER be compromises, even though hardcore political zealotry is never good for the people and helps to keep Linux locked into a niche. After all, what non developer wants to study like it is the ACTs just to keep from playing paperweight roulette? And what retailer like me is gonna want to carry your product knowing that less than 35% of the devices in Walmart actually work and the users has NO WAY of actually telling that by looking?

So I'm sorry dude, but Linux will always be a niche. In servers, where the hardware is very limited and rarely changes, and the corporations that build the hardware have millions invested in Linux? Yeah it will work great there, same as in cell phones and other devices where the hardware is locked down tighter than a nun's thighs and the user can only do what the developer allows them to. But in the consumer desktop market, where there are literally 1000s of hardware manufacturers, devices have a short window of shelf life, and keeping developers around to constantly update drivers because Linux is like a shifting sand, where if you actually tried to put a binary driver on a CD with your device the odds are that it won't work by the time you make it to market? Yeah not gonna happen friend. Back when Win9X was the buggy crap that folks had to deal with daily I thought "Surely they will come out with a stable ABI soon and then we'll have real choice in the market". But it has been 10 years, and the SCoN! brigade have kept everything the same. Just look at how many "update foo broke my sound" posts you have on Ubuntu. Yeah, good luck with that pal.

Re:why anyone would use gnome is another question (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550814)

Too bad you chose to dilute the 1 or 2 possibly relevant and/or useful points you might otherwise made with a bunch of stuff that is utterly beside the point (and mostly out of date besides).

Catastrophical ... this could mean the end ... (1)

freaker_TuC (7632) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550624)

The plot thickens ... it always starts like that.

I've always knew these little Gnomes were going to take over the world. First they'll start 20,000 miles under the sea by putting the Nautilus back to browser mode.

bottom line: Don't trust Gnomes ... Don't trust Dwarves either, since Santa isn't a real Elf anyways!

EQP!? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550636)

C:ome Here but Now

A File Chooser Addon that takes pasted path? (1)

Provocateur (133110) | more than 3 years ago | (#30550672)

Well for web browsers, when I click Browse, you have to click all the way to the file you want. Has
there been an add-on for FF that lets you paste/click-paste the path to a file directly? Otherwise it's
like dig, dig, dig towards the destination folder, or do you guys use these file managers (Nautilus.
Dolphin et al) to surf the web as well because of this feature?

yay! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30550806)

Literally the first thing I do after installing a gnome based distro is change nautilus to browser mode.

Best christmas present ever!

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