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Court Orders Shutdown of H-1B Critics' Websites

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the with-great-power-comes-awh-screw-it dept.

Censorship 605

theodp writes "Computerworld reports that a NJ Superior Court Judge ordered hosting firms to shut down three Web sites that oppose the H-1B visa program and seeks information about the identity of anonymous posters. GoDaddy, Network Solutions, Comcast and DiscountASP.Net were ordered to disable ITgrunt.com, Endh1b.com, and Guestworkerfraud.com. Facebook Inc. was also ordered to disable ITgrunt's Facebook page. The judge's order was made in response to a libel lawsuit filed by Apex Technology Group Inc., which is citing its copyright ownership as it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com, which drew critical comments on US and India websites."

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hmmm (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30581882)

... this is odd play for the federation

getting myself a glass of iced tea (5, Insightful)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581890)

I think I'll enjoy sitting back and watching the information suppression fail. I was not aware of this story until they tried to suppress it. :)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (4, Interesting)

lorenlal (164133) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582000)

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

Good way to end this BS (5, Interesting)

causality (777677) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582220)

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

I agree there was no reason to take down the entire domains. This really seems like it's becoming a standard tactic: put conditions into a legally binding contract, and then cry "copyright violation" when the contract is posted in public to the embarassment of its authors. An employment agreement is generally such a contract.

I propose a change to the law along these lines: your contract may be legally binding and public-domain, or it may be non-binding and copyrightable. You are, after all, asking a government agency (a public servant) such as a court of law to enforce it for you.

Re:Good way to end this BS (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582288)

The whole point of a contract is that it's legally binding. I propose a change: shut the fuck up or go kill yourself.

Re:Good way to end this BS (0)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582372)

I'm not sure what this AC is suggesting... are you suggesting that contracts SHOULD be able to be suppressed through copyright?

Anyway, the problem with the GP post is it assumes that lawmakers care about putting in logical copyright reforms that don't favor large organizations. We all know how likely that is.

Re:Good way to end this BS (1)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582452)

Well Mr. Know-nothing, if a contract is illegal, such as promising you will give your first born child, then it *isn't* legally binding. That is why contracts have clauses saying that if one part of the contract is found to be illegal or invalid, it doesn't release the obligations of the existing parts.

Re:Good way to end this BS (1)

bangin (1545657) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582614)

Wow that's deep. I can't wait for additional useless and argumentative comments from this AC.

Re:Good way to end this BS (4, Funny)

jbolden (176878) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582326)

Excellent policy. Makes sense, contracts should be public documents in all cases.

Re:Good way to end this BS (4, Insightful)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582350)

It only takes a review of the purpose of copyright to see that the claim of copyright over an employment agreement should be thrown out. Whether the law itself is well-enough written to allow for that is another matter.

OTOH, contracts can and routinely do include clauses to the effect that you cannot disclose the terms of the contract. Whether an employment agreement is a contract at best varies by state, but I'm aware of no reason they couldn't contain confidentiality agreements regardless.

Of course, the protection for that isn't as strong as copyright. And in the end, it doesn't matter; if I know that a company isn't proud of its employment agreement such that they want it kept secret, then I'm thinking twice about subjecting myself to said agreement.

copyright? confidential terms? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582466)

Are they doing the takedown under copyright? Or under DMCA? or under some protection of trade secrets rules? Let's see.. if they want to claim damages for copyright infringement (beyond being enjoined to stop copying) they have to register the copyright, and to register it, a copy must be deposited with the Library of Congress.

I would think that a contract would fall more under trade secret protections. Of course, there, once it's out, it's not secret anymore. "the bell, having been rung, cannot be un-rung"

But, in any case, the article says it's none of these. It's a court order to shut down the websites pending the underlying lawsuit, which is for defamation/libel. So, all that means is that the plaintiff has convinced the judge that there is potential damage from leaving the site up that cannot be later remedied by, say, cash payment. I would think that if they said that the site is revealing (or potentially revealing) trade secret information, the judge can probably do this. Then, the site owner can go to the judge and say, uh-uh, we're not doing this, so get rid of the order.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582018)

While I do agree is going to be hard to remove the information. I find sad however, that people often confuses the H-1B program with the Diversity Visa program.

I'd be all in for people to understand that the DV program gives green cards to (supposedly) randomly selected people, while H-1B is a temporary permit for people to work in specialized areas.

Now, which one you think hurts the most the average American?

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582054)

Do people not understand pages are cached [google.com] ?

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582336)

But most people don't read /. and if they started doing so /. would either have to remove these strories or get a domain takedown order themselves I'm afraid. Laws that make things like this possible are nothing to be relaxed about.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (2)

TooMuchToDo (882796) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582406)

This sounds like a job for Wikileaks to host.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (1)

g0bshiTe (596213) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582544)

I'd wager this contract was procured via P2P.

Doesn't look like they got all of them. (4, Informative)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581896)

Guestworkerfraud.com works for me...

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them. (5, Funny)

jmyers (208878) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581930)

Just wait. Maybe they got the story listed on Slashdot as a way to shut them down.

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them. (4, Informative)

ottothecow (600101) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581968)

And it reads like a comedy/satire blog...but serious

"Even More Proof That Global Warming Is A Communist Front"
"Thai troops raid Hmong camp, deport 4,000 seeking asylum: What a concept - deporting 4000 people. Perhaps the U.S. needs to do the same to the FOUR MILLION India, Inc. racketeers running loose in the U.S. raping our economy."
"India, Inc. hacks Citigroup for millions"

so if i put it up on the united hackers website (1)

CHRONOSS2008 (1226498) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581932)

they gonna email me
i feels lonely

Don't like the way government handles things? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30581950)

If you don't like actions or laws of your government, then you need to take control of your government [metagovernment.org] .

I am not sure if it would work with court systems, but you certainly could take a whack at copyright and libel laws, for example.

Sanjay sucks... (-1, Troll)

nycguy (892403) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581970)

...or at least that seems to sum up the message of these sites. In other news, a related site [stormfront.org] is still open for business.

Re:Sanjay sucks... (2, Funny)

ThatsLoseNotLoose (719462) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582352)

No need to be a jerk, dude. Some of us are on company networks and don't recognize stormfront as a racist site - but our proxies do.

Thanks dickhead.

Re:Sanjay sucks... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582530)

No need to be a jerk, dude. Some of us are on company networks and don't recognize stormfront as a racist site - but our proxies do.

Thanks dickhead.

No need to be a jerk, dude. It's not someone else's problem if you click every hyperlink you see. I read his comment and felt no need to click.

Maybe you should get back to work and stop reading racist websites on company time.

Re:Sanjay sucks... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582594)

No need to be a jerk, dude. Some of us are on company networks and don't recognize stormfront as a racist site - but our proxies do.

Thanks dickhead.

No need to be a jerk, dude. It's not someone else's problem if you click every hyperlink you see. I read his comment and felt no need to click.

Maybe you should get back to work and stop reading racist websites on company time.

So stating he has related information via a hyperlink and sending people to a hate site is a valid thing to do?

You are a dickhead.

Copyright BS (3, Insightful)

Herkum01 (592704) | more than 3 years ago | (#30581984)

I fail to see how an employment agreement can be copyrighted.

Re:Copyright BS (5, Interesting)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582022)

Or even if it could be copyrighted, how that copyright could trump anyone's first amendment rights to comment on a matter of national concern.

Re:Copyright BS (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582408)

If there's anything that qualifies as fair use, I'd say this is it.

Re:Copyright BS (1)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582552)

While I hate to argue with someone who agrees with me, I completely disagree.

If we accept that the 1st amendment is a 107 fair use of copyrighted materials, we're acknowledging that the 1st amendment, heck, the entire bill of rights is subject to copyright law. Does that may any freaking sense? That copyright law has higher priority under the law than the bill of rights? And god forbid that 107 is ever struck down.

It clearly should be the other way around. Copyright law should should be subject to our bill of rights. In other words, it simply does not matter whether copyright contains the 107 exception, the 1st amendment should always trump copyright. And any copyright holder who feels otherwise should have the burden to show what it should not in his or her particular instance.

Remember, 107 is not a right, it is merely a defense. The burden is on the alleged infringer to make a showing of fair use. Like I said, when it comes to our bill of rights, that's completely fricken backwards. Anyone wishing to limit someone's first amendment right should have the burden, not the other way around.

Re:Copyright BS (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582576)

Didn't say that it was the first amendment that was solely making it fair use. But it doesn't affect Apex's ability to sell copies of the contract, and it's being posted for educational purposes.
 
Copyright was created for art/code, not to protect privacy.

Re:Copyright BS (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582588)

That is, they don't profit from selling the contract. They aren't losing any money directly as a result (though you have to admit that it can't help their sales).

Re:Copyright BS (4, Informative)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582470)

The answer to your question: The Berne Convention [wikipedia.org] , which affixes copyright on anything written down anywhere. Really. This comment is copywritten by yours truly thanks to that rule and that fun text at the bottom of the page, and as such if I were wealthy and a complete jerk I could sue someone for infringement if someone decided to plagiarize me.

So now it's becoming increasingly common to suppress the publication of a bad contract via copyright rather than via an non-disclosure clause. Among other things, asserting copyright gives the plaintiff all the DMCA suppression capabilities that a contract violation does not.

Re:Copyright BS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582618)

wouldn't the copyright be shared by all members of the contract? Should I make sure to always make some edit to any contract so that I can claim partial copyright for the contract?

what is defamatory about "common knowledge"? (4, Insightful)

peter303 (12292) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582006)

Everyone knows much of he H-1B program is abused by employers, temp companies, and many of the workers themselves. "Go away. Nothing to see here."

Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc., (1)

arnott (789715) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582024)

Re:Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc., (2, Informative)

wonkavader (605434) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582126)

Excellent link. Apex doesn't score very well. (Read as: "Scores VERY Badly.")

Re:Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc., (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582314)

Uh, is it gone? Score another one for corptocracy.

H-1B is a Fraud (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582026)

How can we be so short of American programmers and other IT people that we need to import foreigners in the middle of this awful recession?

We aren't. It's fraud. It's meant to reduce your salary.

It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582120)

Probably because there's an awful recession going on and most American Programmers and other IT people won't work for the amount of money, lack of holidays, benefits and hours that those being imported will do.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (4, Informative)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582202)

1) The recession is partly DUE to this practice.

2) It's not that the people won't work- it's that it's not being offered in the first place and they're claiming a "shortage" of workers (even though there's not...) and getting the H1B's in here

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582328)

The employees still pay taxes on their income and property, still pay for products, food and maybe rent. All going straight back into the ecomony. You can't blame a world economic collapse on a handful of imported programmers. You are xenophobic. Stop blaming everyone except locals for what has been corrupt financing for several years, lead by the US.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (1)

ShiningSomething (1097589) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582444)

1) The recession is partly DUE to this practice.

How exactly is the recession due to this practice? In 2007, roughly 800,000 jobs were created (1.4M new, 600K destroyed). There were 65K new H1B visas - these last 6 years at the most so let's say that there was a TOTAL stock of 400K H1B visa immigrants. Unless you're saying that these immigrants created financial instruments that natives would not have, which is seriously doubtful.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582604)

You're not counting the unknown number of L-1 visas issued during the same period.

And the H-1Bs are concentrated in STEM jobs, especially in IT. The number of H-1Bs and L-1s imported is very large compared to the number of new IT jobs ... all you have to do is look at the flat after inflation salaries in our field.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582154)

I'm a student in the US. And I'm looking for a job, hopefully getting an H-1B. But as you say, in the middle of this recession, nobody is hiring, and those hiring, are hiring US Citizens mainly. So you may feel threatened, maybe because, you're not looking for a job? Because I know they are hiring in several places, but not foreigners.

Now, there is a hole and a law can be abused? Tell me something new!

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582254)

Exactly!

Many bitch like pussies. When I asked them why wouldn't they learn a programming language, their answers varied from "I can't focus." to "It's not worth it!". Don't do it for the money! Do it for it's cool!

Stop whining and act like grownups! 'mkay?

Oh, I forgot! I am an international grad student in the US and I, for one, welcome our H1B overlords! It's the ONLY way to stay in the US and have a career after graduation.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582310)

It's the ONLY way to stay in the US and have a career after graduation.

Don't worry- the H1-B abuses continue, and it'll be the 3rd world shit hole conditions your used to back home.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582374)

I actually used to live in a 400k Euro villa before coming to the States to work for a certain period of time for little more than $1300. Not that I regret a minute my decision. But you wouldn't understand that!

Now go to your six pack, Joe!

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582548)

Any coward with means will leave behind the problems they lack the character to address. Real leaders return with the benefit of education to drive change from within.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

ShiningSomething (1097589) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582160)

It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.

I don't think it's any different from hiring illegal immigrants to work the harvest, or at a meatpacking plant. In that case, Indians have nothing to do with it. Some people may call it competition.

Make them citizens already. (5, Insightful)

tjstork (137384) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582180)

H1-B is meant to bring Indians into the USA and have them by the short hairs. I rather think that if an employer wants to bring someone onboard to the USA, they can, and should, without restriction, but, once you work in the USA, and pay taxes for six months, you should be made a citizen already.

Taxation without representation is not fair.

I thought we revolted from GB over that very issue, and it is despicable that we even tolerate this modern form of indentured servitude.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (-1, Troll)

Phantom of the Opera (1867) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582212)

<quote><p>How can we be so short of American programmers and other IT people that we need to import foreigners in the middle of this awful recession?</p><p>We aren't. It's fraud. It's meant to reduce your salary.</p><p>It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.</p></quote>

I'll bite.

Someone with the gumption to search the world for jobs probably has the will to work hard. There are too many native programmers who whine if given a task that falls slightly out of their comfort zone or job description.

Course that's not always the case, but its how many employers see it. The attitude should be "damn, its a recession, I should work harder" rather than "damn, its a recession, let me kick out the competition"

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (5, Insightful)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582536)

I'll bite.

You bit the wrong place and for entirely the wrong reasons. Its all about the math. For one good American coder you can higher three to five shitty Indian coders. In the mind of a CEO that means he can gut his coders and hire an army of shitty coders while banking on the chance that in an army of shitty coders perhaps one or two may actually be worth their third world rate. This in turn provides leverage to reduce wages of American coders.

Then, at some later time, the CEO is able to claim he's saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions for the company in labor which then allows him to get both a salary increase and/or additional perks and benefits.

Regardless of what your personal take on this is, this is the general approach and the reasons they do so.

To make this all work, they further scam the system by putting out reqs for American programmers who must have every skill in every language and usually require more experience longer than the given technology exists. And in exchange for the programmer who doesn't not exist anywhere, they'll pay them just below fair market rate; which they have been driving down by illegal H1B hires. They then claim they are unable to fill the unobtainable position and therefore are justified in continuing their H1B hiring practice.

In short, what I detail is the way the majority of large companies operate. If you want to put your head in the sad to feel better and rampant illegal and abusive practices which is directly driving salaries down, unemployment up, and fewer grads to follow, by all means, remain ignorant.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582584)

You are confusing Indian coders working in India who receive outsourced jobs from the US, with Indian coders that are brought to the US on H-1B visas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is generally understood that many, many Indian coders working in the US are of a much, much higher quality than the recipients of outsourcing working in India.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582586)

There are too many native programmers who whine if given a task that falls slightly out of their comfort zone or job description.

I assume you manage programmers then. Are you sure that they're whining because they don't want to do something that makes them uncomfortable and not just trying to make sure the company gets the best service possible by recommending seeking an expert in the areas that they themselves are shaky on?

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582624)

Not necessarily. Someone with the gumption to search the world for jobs lives in a country where the exchange rate, quality of life and governmental concept of human rights is poor. Those Indian programmers who want to come to the west to work aren't doing so because they want to work hard, generally they want the mega salaries (compared to local rates) that they'll get. If you paid them the same as they had at home they wouldn't bother.

Fortunately, paying them half the rate for local workers is still a mega rate for them so the owners of the local companies will happily get them over and put you on to the unemployment queue.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (2, Insightful)

Heartz (562803) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582286)

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582404)

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Yes there is something definitely wrong with this...it f*cking depresses economies in the long run. I suggest you start researching history of labor law, minimum wage, unions, etc before you start lecturing anyone on economic best practices.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (4, Insightful)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582446)

Except when the quality declines, and is considered acceptable because it saves so much money. The world is full of copy-and-paste programmers, and call centers with thick accents and no grasp of common English. And Americans are the worst to trust with voting with their dollars. The vast majority pick the cheapest every time, with no regard to quality.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582490)

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not?

What is wrong with protectionism? It is my country, I pay taxes, I am a citizen, I support western values and lifestyles, and I am expected to defend and protect my country if called to do so. In return I expect to be defended from foreign interests.

This is simply a race to the bottom for the western worker and all workers will lose. Of course that is what the "free trade" proponents want anyway - so at least they are happy.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (3, Interesting)

Capt James McCarthy (860294) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582592)

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

I agree with this in theory. However, it's not the fact that there are a bunch of "Lazy Americans" (which there are plenty of hard working Americans BTW) who want their cake and be able to eat it too, it's the fact that the only commodity being banked on by companies are how to reduce salaries for the 97% of their worker base while the "Big C's" (CEO, CIO, CTO, CFO, etc..) keep their bonus' going up. It's about disparaging differences. I don't mind someone who has built a company up to keep a lions share, however, people with a backbone understand that without hardworking people in the company throughout the ranks, they would be no where and have no company. You are either Pimping or being Pimped now days.

Why doesn't any of this "globalization" affect health care? Where are my lower premiums or cost of health care when globalization is supposed to lower prices while raising service? I mean if you say it works for IT why not health care? Or how about food prices, they too are still going up even though there are many foods imported from all over the world. I guess your argument would be that they would be even higher if everything was left to grow only in the U.S. and sold in the U.S.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (2, Insightful)

pdabbadabba (720526) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582522)

Well, maybe it does reduce your salary, but I doubt that's the point. Rather, I imagine it's to get bright, foreign-educated workers to put down roots in the US so that we get to reap the economic benefits of the educational systems of their home countries, thus causing a brain drain into the US. Only really works if the US has a much higher standard of living though...

Re:H-1B is a Fraud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582600)

How can we be so short of American programmers and other IT people that we need to import foreigners in the middle of this awful recession?

We aren't. It's fraud. It's meant to reduce your salary.

It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.

Well, the invisible hand of the free market system will fix all this!

*thinks* ...by forcing Americans to lower their wages to compete with foreigners in a third world country and no economy.

Stupid fucking invisible hand. God damnit.

This is a job for WikiLeaks! (5, Insightful)

ThreeGigs (239452) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582044)

it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com

Seriously, the document in question should have been uploaded to WikiLeaks.
Anyone have a copy or linkage? I can't find it.

Re:This is a job for WikiLeaks! (1)

arnott (789715) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582122)

Google has some help, but needs more digging. Relevant results [google.com]

Re:This is a job for WikiLeaks! (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582460)

Grab it from the Google cache and send it to them yourself?

Sold justice. (5, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582096)

this is what happens in a cutthroat, unregulated capitalist system. rich can buy justice, whereas individuals can buy shit. enjoy.

Re:Sold justice. (1)

therealkevinkretz (1585825) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582172)

Are you suggesting they "bought" the judge?

Re:Sold justice. (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582392)

Not necessary. Just buy the laws. Or let Disney buy the laws.. or whatever.

Re:Sold justice. (1)

base3 (539820) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582440)

Probably not, but I can't say I'd be surprised if it came out that they had. It certainly is an overreaching ruling, and (on the face of it, not considering the backlash) quite convenient for the Apex slave shop. We're well on the way to a degree of corruption here that would make an Egyptian customs officer blush.

First thoguht on RTFA (5, Insightful)

DragonFodder (712772) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582100)

fascism
/fæzm/ Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm]

–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly
suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.
, and emphasizing an aggressive
nationalism and often racism.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

Re:First thoguht on RTFA (0, Troll)

azaris (699901) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582366)

fascism
/fæzm/ Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm]

–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

Lack of brain function courtesy of Fox News.

Re:First thoguht on RTFA (1)

kevinNCSU (1531307) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582464)

If you have to bold a specific section of a definition so your readers will gloss over all the other constraints that don't fit then you've probably selected the wrong word for the situation at hand. Also I thought "regimenting industry" means the Government takes over private industry, whereas what you have here is closer to the industry taking control of, or at least influencing the government. Perhaps you should try a second thought and choose a new word? ;)

Re:First thoguht on RTFA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582514)

fascism /fæzm/ Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm] –noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Courtesy of Dictionary.com

"You're either with us or against us" sounded like aggressive nationalism to me. It means you are either my good friend or my bitter enemy and there is no middle ground, no neutrality.

I haven't named a single name, only quoted something that was an official statement from the Office of the Presidency. Because that phrase happened to have been uttered by a prior administration, I'll wait and see if any knee-jerk reactive types (i.e. idiots, even if they have high IQs) assume that this is an endorsement of anyone. "Hey, he didn't like something about the previous president, that must mean he loves the current one and there is no other possibility!" Isn't that how the thinking goes, you partisan fucks?

First amendment (5, Informative)

jbolden (176878) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582102)

How is this not clear cut first amendment? A collection of websites expresses a political opinion. A potentially tort-able act, distributing a copyrighted document occurred. That doesn't give the courts the right to issue a blanket cease publication order.

Assuming the Computer World story is correct Judge James Hurley should be removed from the bench. I want to post this here for comment, since I live in NJ and thus have a state Senator that has oversight.

Re:First amendment (2, Informative)

DustyShadow (691635) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582236)

Please excuse my ignorance of the case because I have not read all the details or TFA but I did skim it and it sounded like it was just a temporary injunction. This sort of thing is common in civil cases where the plaintiff alleges some type of damage if the "behavior, action, etc." continues during the litigation. A court will issue a temporary or preliminary injunction in the meantime. The plaintiff normally has to show that it is likely to win the lawsuit. Sometimes the plaintiff also has to purchase a bond in the event that it loses and the defendant suffers harm due to the injunction. I highly doubt a bond was required in this case.

I'm not saying the judge's decision was correct. I'm just pointing out that this probably was not a permanent injunction.

Re:First amendment (4, Insightful)

MobyDisk (75490) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582458)

Yeah, but the injunction was against the entire site, not merely the libelous statements. Would it be fair to shut down all of Slashdot because of one libelous post? Also, if this is a copyright issue, then a DMCA notice is sufficient to have the document removed. No need to take down the entire site.

Re:First amendment (1)

noidentity (188756) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582276)

Actually, I'd just say it's a property rights issue. It'd be first amendment if the government were trying to silence them, but it seems this is in response to a private company trying to silence them through the courts. Note any less important, just a different issue. Criticism is on private property, isn't false, thus forcing them to take it down is violating their property rights.

VDARE article on all this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582134)

From the first comment in the Computer World article, an item from the VDARE website [vdare.com] .

Job Reclaimation, not creation. (2, Insightful)

ground.zero.612 (1563557) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582162)

Maybe if we had a president that said he was going to do something he could actually do, this wouldn't be a problem at all. The president's job isn't to create jobs, and I feel bad for all of you that voted for Obama because you thought he was going to change the country into a fully employed working class with free healthcare.

One of the biggest crocks of shit I've heard these holier than thou politicians say repeatedly, is that they are going to use our tax money to create jobs. Jobs that our very own government let our corporations outsource to India, Mexico, and China. I'm not sure that the term outsource fully matches with importing temporary H-1B visa immigrants to take our jobs, but I see it as part of the same problem.

I would really like to see a guy run against Obama in 2012 on the premise of reclaiming our outsourced jobs, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

The fact is, the people of the US were better off when we were mostly isolationist and had extremely limited foreign trade partners. We were certainly better off before our government let our corporations sell us out to cheap 3rd world labor.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (4, Insightful)

drsquare (530038) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582238)

DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!!

But seriously, you want to turn the USA into an isolated state like North Korea just so you don't have to compete for employment. And you haven't thought it through very well: protectionism works both ways. Cut yourself off from the world, and US companies won't be able to outsource any of their products. They'll have no option but to move their entire operations outside of the US, then you won't have any jobs at all.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582290)

And their market will be where? Oh, that's right, they can sell to China. And then the Chinese will demand the same higher wages and protections. Macro view: this war of escalation can end two ways: one, with a decent standard of living for most people or two, with the mass executions of the rich and confiscation of their wealth from popular uprisings.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582428)

I've found the "threat" that companies would simply move their entire operations overseas to be strange. Is every person capable of executive management going to suddenly disappear from the country? No. If a company's management moves itself overseas, others would just fill the void and create new companies that would create new jobs here. I'm all for "forcing" corporations to move all of their operations overseas so they can make room for new companies that would provide jobs here.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (3, Interesting)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582516)

Executive Management are not going to move overseas. Executive Management are the people (in the U.S. anyway) that are making money off of outsourcing. They are making a killing off of it and they don't want to be Chinese wage slaves anymore than any of us do.

The argument for outsourcing is that it allows everyone over here to do "more important jobs," i.e. Management. The flaw in this argument is that not everyone can be Managers. Some of us aren't cut out for it and there are always going to be those not smart enough for it.

What are you going to do with the doers if all the "menial" work is outsourced? We better be thinking of answers. Some of us can create small businesses, but not everyone.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582274)

reclaiming our outsourced jobs, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

That would be so fun...

Watching the states committing economic suicide, becoming unable to sell below any other country's prices or being forced to cut its entire workforce's salaries to china ranges.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582540)

, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

Stop being ignorant. We *need* the worlds most talented engineers to come to the US legally, work here and pay taxes. If anything, we probably need stricter hiring practices. If Americans hire crappy engineers, it isn't the engineer who is at fault for trying. Also, If you think you're so better than the Indian H1-B you should have no problem convincing any employer to give you a job. I have never seen a (US citizen) programmer who is proficient unable to get a job. If you're run of the mill average, as I suspect most of these sites' members are, then tough shit.

Btw, I'm pretty sure Linus Torvalds came here on an H1-B Visa ;)

suggestion (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582170)

Maybe the US needs something akin to a license for software engineers. The barrier to entry in this field is too low.

While I have done very well over the last 23 years in this field, I would not recommend the investment in a CS degree alone to my children. Be an entrepreneur, doctor, plumber, electrician, nuclear engineer as your main profession.

CS is a useful SECONDARY profession because it gives you the tools to support your main endeavor.

Due to globalization the field is too unstable and vulnerable to be a main gig, IMO.

Re:suggestion (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582296)

Plumber-Software engineeer?

Are you telling me it is like a series of tubes?

Re:suggestion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582434)

Plumber-Software engineeer?

Are you telling me it is like a series of tubes?

What I am saying is there are stricter entry requirements to be a plumber than a software engineer.

Re:suggestion (1)

omnichad (1198475) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582486)

That's hilarious, but somebody still has to design digital water meters.

Copyright Infringement and Libel (5, Interesting)

Adrian Lopez (2615) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582194)

They're suing for copyright infringement as well as libel? Please tell me there's something more to the libel allegations than just the posting of the contract. Otherwise, they're either suing for libel over the posting of a legitimate document or suing for copyright infringement over a document they do not own.

What we need to know. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582282)

http://www.freemoviescinema.com/movies/documentary/2598-fall-of-the-republic-the-presidency-of-barack-h-obama-2009.html

If the same happened in Iran or N. Korea, (1, Insightful)

BhaKi (1316335) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582298)

Western media would have magnified it 10 times and portrayed the country as having a tyrannous dictatorship. Before modding this post, make yourself aware of the extent of success in ongoing propaganda and manipulation [rollingstone.com] .

Streisand Effect HO! (1)

kenp2002 (545495) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582360)

Ok so who has the torrent link to the docs!?

If it were me, I'd wait 2 weeks, then (4, Funny)

mandark1967 (630856) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582368)

I'd tell the court that I called in the order to take the site down to my out-sourced IT Support Center and I am still on hold...

Re:If it were me, I'd wait 2 weeks, then (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582386)

Then I'd piss and moan about not having any H1Bs here in the US that I could rely on to fulfill the court order...just sayin...

Perhaps (1)

jav1231 (539129) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582402)

Perhaps everyone should post the doc on their website. let it go viral.

". . . outstanding reputation . . ." (3, Funny)

base3 (539820) | more than 3 years ago | (#30582412)

Apex had an outstanding reputation in the information technology field . . .

There, fixed that for you.

if... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582430)

if the government program was honest and a good one it would stand up to criticism wouldn't it. In my experience its the dishonest people and programs that don't stand up to criticism and try to suppress it

More to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582462)

This http://www.techgoss.com/Story/244S12-Anti-H1B--anti-Indian-Blog-bans-us.aspx paints a picture, perhaps related to the websites takedown. It should be noted that being Indian, I still value the right of free speech above whatever pissing contest they had going on over there. It would be a stupid reason to take it down for that.

Libel? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#30582468)

Is it libel if it's true? Apex is seeking the identity of the person who posted their copyrighted employment agreement. This charge seems to indicate the document was not altered, hence why the charge of libel?

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