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Canada's Airlines Face a Privacy Dilemma

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the our-way-and-the-high-way dept.

Privacy 457

Interoperable writes "Canada's airlines are caught between a rock and a hard place in the face of new US regulations that require them to collect and hand over personal information about passengers. Handing over information regarding a passenger's name, gender and birth-date may violate Canadian privacy laws but merely flying over American airspace is conditional on doing exactly that. It seems that the long arms of the TSA are eager to grope at Canadians taking a shortcut to Toronto; no doubt to prevent any terrorist attacks on Lake Huron."

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US bullying and demanding other countries.. (5, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625840)

.. to do exactly what they say, or suffer?

Now I didn't see this one coming.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625928)

... and then they wonder why they're fast becoming a 3rd world country when nobody else wants to deal with them any more.

It's strange to watch, in modern times, an empire committing suicide through paranoia.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (4, Insightful)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625978)

Modern is relative, and all empires collapse from internal and/or external pressures.
I guess what you mean, is you didn't expect it to happen in YOUR time.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (5, Insightful)

QuoteMstr (55051) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625984)

Isn't that exactly what we used to criticize the Soviet Union for doing? We stared into the abyss all right, but the abyss stared right back into us.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (5, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626242)

We used to criticize the Soviets for everything, be it rational or not. :)

BTW we criticized them for not letting people LEAVE their borders, not for controlling their own airspace and controlling border ingress.

A country belongs to its people, not other people. Not its neighbors.

Those not liking how it runs its internal affairs or controls access to its territory are free to express their discontent by boycott and routing around the problem.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (-1, Redundant)

furball (2853) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626424)

I once stared into the abyss. Then the abyss stared right back at me. We started making out. I got to third base before we stopped. The abyss told me it wasn't that kind of abyss.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (0, Offtopic)

JustOK (667959) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626552)

and now? Do you feel empty inside?

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626616)

In Soviet Russia, abyss stares into you!

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (1)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626156)

Yeah, no other country other than the U.S. enforces their own laws within their borders. RTFA!

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626172)

Yeah, it is time for the USA to end. Let us in Florida proclaim independence and become Cuba del Norte. Mexicans do the same in California and New Mexico and they become Mexico del Norte. Puerto Ricans and Dominicans can do the same in NY so it becomes Caribe del Norte. So the schizo paranoid Anglos will have only the mid-west and Texas. So, we will get all the Sunshine, all the pretty girls and the pathetic white blind Anglo-Saxon cucarachas can have all their fingerprinting and X-Rays for themselves. This war the muslims are waving is not against the Hispanic or the Black people in the US, it is against the white christian aryan nation, so fuck the whites we can have our own countries where we are already majority and they can keep the rest of the USSA for themselves.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (1)

X-Power (1009277) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626220)

In this new world order you got going, what happened to Africa Del Norte?

STFU (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626224)

niggers and beaners are disgusting, filthy vermin.

The ARYAN race will overcome the subhumans and rebuild EDEN.

Re:STFU (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626432)

sorry to break it to you ass munch but whites will be a minority very soon. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1110177520080212 [reuters.com]

Re:STFU (2, Insightful)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626506)

    Depending on where you live, you already are. I don't see it as a problem, unless the majority (or larger minorities) start into the racism that they blame the "white" man for. Honestly, it's really weird to be one of the few white people in the area. Not for the sake of being the minority, but the racism that can accompany it. For the most part though, people are people, and treat you equally. It's the exceptions that are the problems, and the GP post is one of them.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (4, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626196)

Airspace is sovereign territory. Requiring conditions of those who enter it may be onerous, but it isn't odd.

Don't like the conditions, don't go there. Boycott the US.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (4, Insightful)

JohnFen (1641097) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626338)

Don't like the conditions, don't go there. Boycott the US.

This is about flights that are only traveling through US airspace, not landing in the US, so they are already not going there.

The US is certainly within its rights to do this, but it is a very odd thing to do nonetheless: it doesn't increase US security at all, and further tarnishes our already very tarnished image.

The world is increasingly boycotting the US, and things like this simply accelerate the trend. That is a bad thing, since we rely on the cooperation of the world to maintain our standard of living, technology, and, yes, security.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (4, Insightful)

furball (2853) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626490)

This is about flights that are only traveling through US airspace, not landing in the US, so they are already not going there.

Someone hijacks a flight passing through US airspace but not landing in it to pull off an attack similar to the attack on the World Trade Center. That's the reason for the condition. Whether the existence of the condition is necessary or not is up for debate, but that's the reason those conditions exist.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626352)


And what about the poor people in the USA who then suffer from reduced visitors, whether academic, tourist or friends and family? When the US government's laws affect other nations, the US pays the price as well. The people of the US are victims of this too.

Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (4, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626548)

The people of the US are victims of this too.

The people of the US are party to this. Until we stop our government from committing these excesses in our name, we must share the responsibility.

Fuck you America ... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625874)

So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy.

See how long before the state departments starts whining about that.

This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me.

Re:Fuck you America ... (4, Insightful)

tresho (1000127) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625930)

This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me. I admire you attitude. If you want to overfly Rome, you better do as the Romans demand, otherwise, go somewhere else.

Re:Fuck you America ... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626598)

Actually, when I flew from the UK to Rome a few months ago, it was very noticeable that the staff on arrival were friendly and helpful, and the visible security consisted of a perfunctory passport check and one guard with a dog.

Flying home to Stansted in the UK, we were greeted by long queues and a passport check by someone looking down their nose at us as though it was beneath them to grant us entry to our own country, under the watchful eyes of several armed police officers who hadn't been properly trained to point their weapons somewhere safe when not using them.

I don't know where it all went wrong in the UK and the US, but the Italians are clearly doing something better than we are.

Re:Fuck you America ... (4, Informative)

KalAl (1391649) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625970)

Japan already fingerprints and photographs [bbc.co.uk] all foreigners when they enter the country.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626048)

This is regarding overflying airspace, not entering the country (US already does this for entry). For instance, many Canadians fly to Cuba, Caribbean, Mexico etc without ever setting foot in the US. Yet the US want's information about those passengers and the ability to deny boarding.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626584)

Even on some internal flights. Some do overfly the US to get to other parts of Canada.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626054)

But you do not even need to enter. This applies if you're even flying over US, lets say Canada->Mexico.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

camperdave (969942) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626198)

Some domestic routes (eg Toronto to Vancouver) fly over US territory. A lot of travellers heading to the 2010 Winter Olympics are going to be ticked!

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626630)

    I don't think the article mentioned it, but the posted story did. Flights to/from YYZ (Toronto) may cross American borders on approach or departure. They do run flights down to Mexico and Cuba, which I'm fairly sure transit over American airspace.

    I know the Canada Cuba flights already have the US Government's interest though. If there's an American on board without permissions (like, most of us won't have), we'll get nailed because of the ongoing embargo. While they did change some limits on that, the average American like myself, can't go to Cuba still.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626116)

Bummer. I had been thinking it would be nice to spend a few months there, but now Japan has been added along with the U.S. to my personal list of countries where I no longer feel like spending my tourist dollar.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0, Flamebait)

Wowsers (1151731) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626168)

By strange coincidence, the top two countries of mine I've wanted to go visit in my lifetime is the USA (again), and Japan. However, they treat tourists like criminals, and surprise, I'm not visiting those countries. There are dozens and dozens of other countries around the world that value my tourist money and are equally stunning, polite, and photogenic. No problem to me, just wait for the American tourist board to squeal some more soon about the amount of people willing to go to see the US is going down even more.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0, Flamebait)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626274)

Sorry, you won't be missed.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1, Funny)

Shark (78448) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626406)

Oh yeah? Well fine then, no more Celine Dion for you!

Oh, Damn! (0, Offtopic)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626462)

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been so hasty. PLEASE don't take away our Celine?!?!

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

snl2587 (1177409) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626608)

Thank you!

Re:Fuck you America ... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626368)

...the top two countries of mine I've wanted to go visit in my lifetime is the USA (again), and Japan...
...other countries...equally...photogenic...

Equally...photogenic?

American women are rude, obese half-plastic pigs. Protip: the silicon side is the front.

Japanese women look like androgynous malformed babies with down syndrome.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

Tellarin (444097) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626250)

But Brazil only fingerprints and photographs people from the US. And that is reciprocity for having its citizens fingerprinted and photographed in the US.

Other countries (Peru, Panama, Bolivia, ...) charge more fees if you're from the US to cover for immigration and customs procedures.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

MacGyver2210 (1053110) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626564)

That's just a record. Who cares? They have a fingerprint and your picture. I'm sure they could get the same by watching a security video of you in the airport and picking up a glass after you use it. Not exactly invasive.

Japan has always been notoriously 'cautious' of foreigners. I've yet to see them do anything overbearing with this information they collect.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626064)

USA used to be my favourite holiday / conference destination for 15 years. I used to also send a lot of my staff to conferences in the USA.

Have not been back to the USA and have refused to send anyone since 2002. Wherever possible I strongly discourage anyone from visiting the united states. To my pleasant suprise most people reconsider going to the states once I explain (and they do theire own research) on the insane process of passing immigration.

So yeah unfortunately i have to agree: "FUCK YOU AMERICA"

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626118)

All countries have control of their airspace. Some countries don't allow American military planes in their airspace, for example, which is respected. (with the exception of countries which happen to be bomb targets).

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626282)

The US military has a long history of just flying into other countries airspace without permission, even when they are not the target of the bombs....

Good. (1)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626166)

Your country never interested me!

Re:Fuck you America ... (2, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626240)

I hope more people from outside of the U.S. finds ways to pressure the U.S. government to behave itself. I'm getting increasingly ashamed of my government. It simply doesn't serve the interests of the people. And it's not "paranoia" driving this, it is paranoia that is drummed up to gain support for this. In reality, I don't believe the people of the U.S. support what is going on any longer... hell, most people don't have any idea what's going on. But the first time that people of the U.S. travel to another country and find out that they are treated differently because of their government, the average people WILL learn quickly what is going on.

So please, everyone, push back and push back hard!

Re:Fuck you America ... (2, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626294)

"So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy."

Go ahead. I'd be fine with that. Run background checks too. Lock down all borders and protect exclusive access.

I don't fly anywhere I'm not welcome, I'm not interested in becoming an illegal immigrant, I'm not a terrorist, and I'm fine with the deterrent model for containing international flow of people.

Re:Fuck you America ... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626454)

So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy.

See how long before the state departments starts whining about that.

This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me.

You obviously don't get out much. Most countries do far worse than the US. There's a lot of anti American sentiment on Slashdot. Try flying into Saudi Arabia with an Israeli passport or even more fun vice versa. If you listen to some people on Slashdot the US is worse than the Soviet Union ever was. I grew up during the Cold War and that's just plain silly. I've also traveled to many foreign countries and trust me the US isn't that bad and most of the bad was in response to foreigners attacking us. We also have one of the more open immigration and residency policies. Virtually anyone can work here, legal or not, yet oddly enough few countries welcome Americans to work there. I've known many Brits, Australians and Dutch, just examples, that constantly bemoaned how awful it was getting work permits here or how bad the country was yet oddly enough they were working here. I wouldn't be welcome in any of their countries without changing citizenship. Canada has an open immigration policy yet Americans aren't allowed to work there. I work in the film industry and oddly enough it's flooded with Canadians both actors and crew but I can't work there. As a writer I need a Canadian to share writing credit to have a film shot there and it's tough as a director even to work there when it's my script. The whole point is for all the bad things done the negative aspects of the US are ALWAYS overstated and the good points generally ignored. We help support a lot of other countries and economies and we're simply expected to with little or no acknowledgement. We get blasted for using too many resources yet we are also attacked for not buying enough from other countries, odd given our trade deficit. Also we export a large percentage of the food grown here then get blasted over biofuels and that we use too much food. What happens is cherry picking. It's childsplay to find bad laws and bad policies, every country has them. With the US it often seems that's all anyone outside the country wants to see. Most Americans don't agree with their government policies but it's a problem that exists in most countries and is hardly unique to this country. We got blamed for the Bush years but few pointed out the majority of Americans voted against him. He won by a technicality. It's ridiculous to blame each one of us for everything our government does. Just because we get stuck with a certain leader doesn't make us all rightwing conservatives like flipping some cosmic switch. Each country has had their political crosses to bear. You don't have to come to the States just hop on a plane to some other countries around the world and actually see what's out there. If it isn't the utopia you pictured then try the US and see if it's as bad as you thought. Ya gotta leave your parent's basement some time.

Re:Fuck you America ... (1)

vxice (1690200) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626484)

Personally I plan on avoiding all this appearance of security as best I can. How many terrorists have been caught by the metal detectors? Yes it has deterred many but not more than providing appropriate resources to investigate dangerous groups before they get to the airport. Had money been spent on analysts and investigation that report might have been useful since someone could have checked into it. Admittedly it was very little to go on and likely would still not have been investigated but taking his shoes off sure did not stop him. What we really need is a foreign policy that makes sense and we start by not systematically screwing up the middle east so that our ally has no strong enemies. It is just ridiculous to expect these detectors and random searches to stop everything because of diminishing returns the first few steps are the easiest and have the most affect but after that you catch all of the idiots and now you are trying to fight the smart ones. And why is it within just a few days we go from saying those full body scanners are privacy invasions to asking how soon we can expect them and here is a blank check. As for Canada banning carry on?!?! I suspect airlines have been hoping for an excuse to remove something they had been offering for free so that they can charge for it. The money they save from not having a plane blown up by liquid explosives is much smaller than what they earn by forcing you to buy drinks in the airport.

Re:Fuck you America ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626532)

Mandatory cavity search for all Americans!

Re:Fuck you America ... (1, Flamebait)

AnAdventurer (1548515) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626594)

I think we can live with out euro-trash.

Great circles? (2, Insightful)

GWRedDragon (1340961) | more than 4 years ago | (#30625910)

Flying around US airspace between Canadian cities isn't as bad as it looks on a flat 2d projection map. They should probably just avoid any issues and stick to Canadian airspace.

Re:Great circles? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625950)

The issue is mainly about flying from Canadian cities to destinations in e.g. South America, not domestic Canada flights.

Re:Great circles? (1)

GWRedDragon (1340961) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626068)

The issue is mainly about flying from Canadian cities to destinations in e.g. South America, not domestic Canada flights.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. I was really replying this statement in the post: "It seems that the long arms of the TSA are eager to grope at Canadians taking a shortcut to Toronto; no doubt to prevent any terrorist attacks on Lake Huron."

Re:Great circles? (1)

Xeno man (1614779) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626234)

Remember that the earth is round and the shortest rout on a 2d map isn't a straight line. There are curved paths that go into American air space that are actually shorter distances from Canadian city to Canadian city. In a time where airlines are reducing the size of flotation devices to save .1% in fuel costs, do you thing they are going to be happy about spending 10% more in fuel just to avoid American air space?

Re:Great circles? (1)

GWRedDragon (1340961) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626254)

Remember that the earth is round and the shortest rout on a 2d map isn't a straight line.

That's exactly what I was saying on my original post.

EU had same dilemma... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625916)

But France must have been in charge at the time as we surrendered without a fight.

paranoid freaks (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625964)

every stinking time i have to deal with the asshats that are the tsa i play paranoid freaks by the trews. it's so fitting.

what happened to innocent until proven guilty? like another coward says, your country no longer interests me. and to think at one time i would have given up my canadian citizenship to live in the states.

Just ignore them... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625968)

Just ignore the US, if they make a big stink about it then one by one we should start shutting off all the things we supply them:

Water
Electricity
Oil
Access to Alaska

Eventually they will give in to reason.

Re:Just ignore them... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626020)

The only reason Americans give into is a reason that leads them to believe they have to start shooting and dropping bombs.

Re:Just ignore them... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626138)

Just ignore the US, if they make a big stink about it then one by one we should start shutting off all the things we supply them:

Water
Electricity
Oil
Access to Alaska

Eventually they will give in to reason.

And the Alaska National Guard would have to kick Canada's ass. Now that would be an entertaining 15 minutes.

Re:Just ignore them... (1, Offtopic)

Zanth_ (157695) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626232)

Right....

The last time the US and Canada fought, how did that end again? Ah yes, your White House was lit on fire.

It would take a little more than your National Guard to take some Canadians down. Shooting some of the ICBMs you have pointed at them would work however.

Re:Just ignore them... (1)

Dhalka226 (559740) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626464)

The last time the US and Canada fought, how did that end again? Ah yes, your White House was lit on fire.

And we got a suddenly very, very straight northern border.

Then again that was 200 or so years ago. Things have a tendency to change in time spans that long, so perhaps it's not entirely relevant.

Re:Just ignore them... (2, Funny)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626324)

Just see if we offer you statehood with an attitude like that!

bi7cH (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30625992)

and the bootom

Even transiting in the US is an ordeal. (2, Insightful)

Shturmovik (632314) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626000)

It's just not worth the hassle. There are places in America I'd still quite like to visit, but I'm not going to bother. Being made to endure the insanity of US airport "security" processes is not acceptable to me, and I'm not alone: Aside from all the other people who have decided a US vacation isn't worth the effort, go ask American tourism operators how they feel about it all.

Re:Even transiting in the US is an ordeal. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626314)

It's just not worth the hassle. There are places in America I'd still quite like to visit, but I'm not going to bother. Being made to endure the insanity of US airport "security" processes is not acceptable to me, and I'm not alone: Aside from all the other people who have decided a US vacation isn't worth the effort, go ask American tourism operators how they feel about it all.

It's even worse when the insane US airport security processes you are expected to endure aren't just in US airports!

A few days ago I was waiting for the flight some friends were on to arrive, and watched the departure queue of people flying to the USA. A line of very annoyed and glum-looking people which was going nowhere.

You can't watch them anymore now though, because the airport has erected screens to hide the passengers waiting to board USA-bound flights.

What a fucking joke. I can't wait to spend a fortune to do that! Not.

Re:Even transiting in the US is an ordeal. (2, Insightful)

Xeno man (1614779) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626388)

They would still think it's justified. They are still scared shitless over 9/11 and other evil things that many Americans still think this shit is all a good idea.

Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (1)

Lokinator (181216) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626036)

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, c. 1775 Might I suggest the right answer for Canada (and I say this as an American) is to deny use of Canadian Airspace and/or landing rights to U.S. carriers until this demand is withdrawn? And on the U.S. side, to simply state that Canada can take whatever measures it wishes to guarantee aviation safety, but any damages that involve flights departs from Canadian airports that resulting from failures in whatever aviation safety system Canada may choose to implement will then be paid from randomly seized Canadian assets in the U.S.? Let Canada figure it out, and if they get it wrong, let Canada pay!

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (4, Interesting)

SpottedKuh (855161) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626148)

[...] but any damages that involve flights departs from Canadian airports that resulting from failures in whatever aviation safety system Canada may choose to implement will then be paid from randomly seized Canadian assets in the U.S.?

I have a heck of a lot more faith in Canadian airport security than in American airport security! There are some little differences, e.g., we aren't required to take such ridiculous steps as taking our shoes off. But the one biggest difference: our security personnel are calm, collected, and doing their job well.

Case in point: I recently traveled through Philadelphia. Airport security there was a gong show. All of the TSA personnel were in what looked like panic mode -- running around, not standing in one place for more than two seconds, trying to direct a multitude of people and their baggage at once. Contrast this with YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, or any of the other Canadian airports I've been through (and for comparison, YYZ is much busier than PHL). All of the personnel at security screenings are standing in one place, directing people in an orderly fashion. Everyone clearly has a single, specific job to do, and they are giving their full attention to doing it.

You can invent all the crazy policies you want about people not standing up for the last hour of a flight, etc. But, one necessary component of security screenings is having well-organized screening areas. When such simple things as that are neglected (for whatever reason), you're doing everything wrong. So I'd think twice before assuming Canadian airport security has much to learn at all from US airport security.

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (0, Troll)

gbutler69 (910166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626348)

It's funny, someone earlier on said something about all the "Non-Whites" seceding from the U.S. in the states where they are the Majority (what they really mean is where a collection of various minorities is the majority, whites are still the plurality). Then this comment about the security personnel. I've noticed, in almost any airport in the U.S. one cares to visit, that the majority of the security personnel are NON-WHITE! Now, who exactly is it that is making things bad in the U.S. Who are the greatest numbers of criminals? Violent Crimes? Who are the scientists and engineers? Who are the software developers? Stop the White Guilt! Whites aren't ruining this country. Take a look around.

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626520)

This must be satire. "Whites" like Madoff you mean? "Whites" that until early last year had held the highest office in the country since its creation? "Whites" that hold virtually all the top corporate positions in the country? "Whites" that were responsible for the financial crisis and recession?

Sure, lets blame the people with the least power and resources. They are really the opnes responsible. Roll Tui ad.

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (1)

furball (2853) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626588)

"Whites" that until early last year had held the highest office in the country since its creation

So how's he doing? Other than the fantastic jobs creation [usatoday.com] work he's diligently doing [dailymail.co.uk] I mean.

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626590)

Who do you think hired all the darkies to do their dirty work? Fucking idiot.
(this message brought to you by a Caucasian American)

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (1)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626358)

You got to see our concept of security theater called "Moron Madness". Do you think that is REAL security? No, it's an art project funded by the American taxpayer through the National Institute for the Arts. We hope you enjoy the show.

You've got to admit the butt bomber is PRICELESS fun!

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626154)

I'm usually 100% with privacy advocates, but I have to say that I don't think being able to fly over a foreign country without having to give them your name and birth date is an essential liberty. Or even a reasonable expectation. Did I miss something?

Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626342)

I'm usually 100% with privacy advocates, but I have to say that I don't think being able to fly over a foreign country without having to give them your name and birth date is an essential liberty. Or even a reasonable expectation. Did I miss something?

If you believe that, then surely you must believe that requiring full immigration processing for flyovers is just as reasonable.

Grow a pair (1)

Bredero (1154131) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626062)

and tell em to piss off

Huron? (1)

i_ate_god (899684) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626066)

Toronto is on Lake Ontario

Re:Huron? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626114)

It "MAY" be in reference to flights from the western parts of Canada that frequently fly the west->east part mostly over the northern midwest states (something about winds I believe)

The flights east -> west usually do fly over lake Huron though.

Re:Huron? (1)

codegen (103601) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626134)

And Lake Ontario is south of lake Huron. A lot of the flight paths from Western Canada to Toronto cut below Superior and Huron Crossing upper Wisconsin and Upper Michigan, putting in danger from terrorist attacks such places as Iron River, Ishpemming, Petosky, and Gaylord.

Re:Huron? (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626634)

Thought it was BESIDE Lake Ontario.

Doesn't this violate... (5, Informative)

msauve (701917) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626092)

Chaper 2, article 5 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation [wikipedia.org] ? I believe both the US and Canada are signatories. (actual document can be found here [icao.int] .

Each contracting State agrees that all aircraft of the other contracting States, being aircraft not engaged in scheduled international air services shall have the right, subject to the observance of the terms of this Convention, to make flights into or in transit non-stop across its territory and to make stops for non-traffic purposes without the necessity of obtaining prior permission, and subject to the right of the State flown over to require landing. Each contracting State nevertheless reserves the right, for reasons of safety of flight, to require aircraft desiring to proceed over regions which are inaccessible or without adequate air navigation facilities to follow prescribed routes, or to obtain special permission for such flights.

Now, I suppose the US could legitimately demand that any flights crossing its territory make a landing, hence subjecting passengers to inspection per Article 9(b-c), but that's only supposed to be available on a temporary basis.

Re:Doesn't this violate... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626188)

That only applies to non-scheduled flights though, does it not? Article 1 says that each country has complete sovereignty above their own country. Which unfortunately, is in favour of the US. I still say that we should all get together and make American travelers lives miserable until this law is changed (fingerprinting, retina scans, dna swabs, the whole bit).

Re:Doesn't this violate... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626378)

I still say that we should all get together and make American travelers lives miserable ...

Don't worry, the TSA already does.

Re:Doesn't this violate... (1)

copponex (13876) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626244)

Since when has signing international treaties caused us to abide by them? We'll invent a legal loophole and continue to pretend that everything is justified by the never ending war for Freedom and Democracy.

Everyone knows that only Americans are righteous enough to defend such lofty ideals from lawless barbarians.

Re:Doesn't this violate... (0, Offtopic)

Tellarin (444097) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626318)

Interesting.

But I guess they can claim that such lengths as 95+ years is limited. Like they do with copyrights...

What about Alaska? (5, Funny)

jjh37997 (456473) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626122)

If we block them they block us and soon we'll be traveling to Alaska via Russia (which I've heard you can see via some of the houses on the coast)

Re:What about Alaska? (1)

Pretzalzz (577309) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626546)

I suspect the US has no problem handing over the information to the Canadians for similar flights.

I'm beginning to see the terrorist's point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626170)

That means they're winning, doesn't it?

Re:I'm beginning to see the terrorist's point (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626252)

Kind of, but it does seem that only the stupid and short-sighted are playing for the western nations at this point.

I don't get it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626178)

The US is making this conditional for permission for overflight. How _precisely_ is this something that they shouldn't be allowed to do? The airlines are perfectly allowed to change their flight paths and not overfly the US. It'll add a lot of time to a flight to the Caribbean or Mexico, but hey, that's what you have to do for overflight.

BTW: I'm Canadian.

Re:I don't get it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626604)

The US is making this conditional for permission for overflight. How _precisely_ is this something that they shouldn't be allowed to do?

Just because you're allowed to do something, does not necessarily make doing it a good idea.

The point isn't that they shouldn't allowed to do it, the point is that it's fucking stupid of them to do it.

Vote On It ! (3, Insightful)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626206)

Since we are not allowed to know if even one, single, lone, terrorist attack in the US has been thwarted by these information lists just what can a citizen do? Sending mail to a congressman or voting according to a position on more of this information collection is absurd as we simply are not allowed to have a clue as to whether this tactic works at all. For all I know perhaps this nonsense simply creates jobs that fat cat politicians hand out to their buddies.

Toronto (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626226)

Ask any Chinese person in the USA how they got to the US, and they will say thru-Toronto.

Ask any Celebrity how they managed to visit Cuba, they will say thru-Toronto.>

Watching Toronto Airports seems prudent.

Fine with me but... (1)

Pederson (1431413) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626334)

That's fine with me. I simply do not travel to the USA. However, if they are to poke and prod us, I say we do the same to them. Then we just allow the Americans to complain and things will be better.

I have a solution. (5, Funny)

Xeno man (1614779) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626346)

I think I have a solution. We as Canadians should just reclassify all flights over American air space as Cargo Flights. No passengers to report. It's not like the plane is going to land in the States or they are going to pull over an aircraft for an inspection. Of course in an emergency situation where one does need to land in the states, it will be an unfortunate clerical error that lead the incorrect information to be given to the US.

Go to EAST ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626350)

Why do we need to go the USA anymore.....It isn't fun anymore to get there.....The planet those evolves around the U.S........there is other places ......

You're either with us or with the terrorists... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626372)

War Plan Red [wikipedia.org] is Go!!!

Invade Canada!

Trust the TSA (1)

An dochasac (591582) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626400)

Trust the T.S.A. They're Federalized [TM] which is howcome they're so smart. I mean they might have missed the underpants bomber who wasn't on the no fly list that the late Senator Ted Kennedy was on, but they nearly nabbed this guy. [storymash.com] Now move along nothing to see here. We must protect ourselves from Polish^H^H^H Oceana^H^H^H Canadian agression.

What privacy? (4, Informative)

rastos1 (601318) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626422)

My country has a bill that puts limits on handling of my personal data. It was passed because the EU demands that. But it also demands that my bank passes info about my money transactions to USA [slashdot.org] . It would be pretty difficult to live without bank account and legally impossible to run a business without bank account. My privacy is screwed and I can't even vote to change that - short of convincing EU to challenge US.

We had stories about US demanding [slashdot.org] data [slashdot.org] about air travelers before [slashdot.org] . Well, you don't have to travel by air. You can use cash and not wire transfers. You can live without internet if you don't want ISP to log who/when you talk to. You can have your privacy - if you live back in the woods. Thanks God, the war on terrorism works so well.

Fork it over, and it changes... nothing. (5, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626452)

Handing over information regarding a passenger's name, gender and birth-date may violate Canadian privacy laws

What's worse is that the TSA can't even get any of those three facts right in many cases.

Last Name [tsa.gov] : "Alphabetic, no numeric or special characters, except dash ( - ) and single quote ( ' ). Do not include suffixes (e.g., jr.). Truncate names longer than 35 characters to 35 characters".
First Name [tsa.gov] : "Secure Flight allows first initial only;" otherwise, same as last name. Honorifics are not to be placed in the name.
Middle Name [tsa.gov] : same as first name.

So if any of your three names doesn't perfectly fit this convention, you will be hit with a $100 Change fee [schneier.com] , including if you don't have a middle name. This is particularily problematic for asian, greek, or many other nationalities whose names include special characters or when translated to english result in a name longer than 35 characters.

Gender [blogspot.com] : Once again, the TSA fails to account for any manner of diversity in the human population. Anyone who doesn't conform to the gender stereotype fixed to your official documents will be subject to additional (unwanted) attention. I wonder if they'll be offering sensitivity training for the crossdressers, transgendered, butch lesbians, and intersexed amongst us. And god help you if the Driver's Bureau screws up, or you live in a state that won't alter birth records after surgery, or one of a dozen other very real problems.

Birthdate: Did you know a lot of people who immigrate to this country don't know when they were born? In fact, in developing countries, it's quite common for people not to know their actual age. People assume a person's date of birth is a fixed thing -- how could you screw that up? And if you live in this country, you don't have to worry about this anyway. Well, remember that until the mid-90s the Social Security Administration wasn't so on about immediately registering newborns -- and did you know some people choose to have their kids at home? Some people don't get a birth certificate until they're five years old because parents just plain forget -- and for a variety of reasons, sometimes they fudge the actual date. Try getting this changed later -- it's fun.

In short, there's no real security being added here. All of it can be defeated quite easily in any event by putting a gun to the head of your wife, kid, or anything else you don't feel like losing. And as we make these security restrictions increasingly ethnocentric, the terrorists will adapt their strategies accordingly, because the payoff is so damn good! They sucked the US economy of trillions of dollars and all they had to do was crash four passenger planes. We offer the best "bang for the buck", literally and figuratively. It doesn't matter if they make it ten thousand times more difficult and expensive to pull another 9/11 job -- it's still an amazingly good deal for the terrorists.

Ah yes, of course the whiners are out now...... (4, Insightful)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | more than 4 years ago | (#30626504)

Canada started using U.S. data a couple of years ago [startribune.com] . Sadly Canada this is the downside of our arrangement with you. You don't get just the good part of this arrangement.

Please Photograph and Fingerprint This Suspect ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30626526)

Number One Suspect [whitehouse.org] .

Have A New Year.

Yours In Ashgabat,
K. Trout

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