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EVE Online Battle Breaks Records (And Servers)

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the blame-it-on-the-torrents dept.

Games 308

captainktainer writes "In one of the largest tests of EVE Online's new player sovereignty system in the Dominion expansion pack, a fleet of ships attempting to retake a lost star system was effectively annihilated amidst controversy. Defenders IT Alliance, a coalition succeeding the infamous Band of Brothers alliance (whose disbanding was covered in a previous story), effectively annihilated the enemy fleet, destroying thousands of dollars' worth of in-game assets. A representative of the alliance claimed to have destroyed a minimum of four, possibly five or more of the game's most expensive and powerful ship class, known as Titans. Both official and unofficial forums are filled with debate about whether the one-sided battle was due to difference in player skill or the well-known network failures after the release of the expansion. One of the attackers, a member of the GoonSwarm alliance, claims that because of bad coding, 'Only 5% of [the attackers] loaded,' meaning that lag prevented the attackers from using their ships, even as the defenders were able to destroy those ships unopposed. Even members of the victorious IT Alliance expressed disappointment at the outcome of the battle. CCP, EVE Online's publisher, has recently acknowledged poor network performance, especially in the advertised 'large fleet battles' that Dominion was supposed to encourage, and has asked players to help them stress test their code on Tuesday. Despite the admitted network failure, leaders of the attacking force do not expect CCP to replace lost ships, claiming that it was their own fault for not accounting for server failures. The incident raises questions about CCP's ability to cope with the increased network use associated with their rapid growth in subscriptions."

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I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

SlothDead (1251206) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651772)

I mean, its great that they won't give you a refund for your ships if you got them destroyed because of stupidity... but if the network code destroyed your fleet? Isn't that CCP's fault entirely?

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651878)

Waaah Waaah!@!!!

Oh noes - I just lost an imaginary spaceship! i want someone to blame someone now! or maybe Ill go back and spend thousands more $ on some more imaginary spacemen

This truly is "stuff that matters"

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (0)

Mr. Freeman (933986) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652228)

We're not talking about a horde of crying babies whining that they lost some in game item. We're talking about a bunch of people that think that the server admins should effectively restore a backup from a time before the servers completely fucked themselves into the ground.

We're effectively talking about replacing email here that got lost due to a server failure, unless that's "attempting to blame someone for the purposes of whining", there's nothing childish about it.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652360)

Why did they attack if only 5% of the fleet was present?
If they had no effective communication, they deserved pwnage.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (3, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652388)

My educated guess is that they tried to bring the server to the knees with the load, then be assembled and ready for the restart and get an edge that way. Because even with a reinforced node, a group jumping in sync does not necessarily appear at the other end simultanously. Instead, my guess is the idea was to pop in, crash the server, log back in together and be actually assembled and battle ready while the other side is still trying to muster and/or log back in.

Unfortunately, the node didn't crash.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (3, Informative)

Yoik (955095) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652668)

Eve is operated with a very laissze faire policy. Fraud, taking advantage of weak code, and other forms of "cheating" only get punished if repeated after explicit announcements. Piracy and fraud attempts are one of the interesting learning aspects for most new players.

The game is treated as something to be played as it is, not as some perfect environment where you should be compensated for deviations.

This is to my taste, as is the extreme PVP orientation. Playing a carebear game instead of Eve is a more appropriate response than whining if you don't like it.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (4, Insightful)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651934)

They're not real ships, and "thousands of dollars" were not lost.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652058)

ISK (the in-game currency) can be used as a substitute for paying subscription renewal fees, so yeah. There is some real money being lost here.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652064)

There is a legal way to get money into the game that is exchange real money for virtual money, so things in the game have real value. Conversely, there are illegal (violation of EULA) but doable methods to get real money out of the game. Also, these virtual things were created by the people in game and their time spent can be valued by the cost of the subscription. So it's pretty easy to calculate the value on these nonexistent in game items. The approximate cost of one of those large ships mentioned is $10000 real world.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

Jerrei (1515395) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652092)

Game time can be purchased with in-game currency. One month of gametime goes for about 250mil ISK. 4 of the ships lost go for over 100bil. The "smaller" ships for anywhere from 1 to 2bil. >600 ships lost. Do the math.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (2, Insightful)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652376)

If a player played for a year to build up your ship and treated it all as a horrible chore as merely an investment for possible future fun, then the fault is that of the player. If instead the player had fun while building up those ships, then the money is already well spent and thus isn't "lost".

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1, Interesting)

Fex303 (557896) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652578)

If a player played for a year to build up your ship and treated it all as a horrible chore as merely an investment for possible future fun, then the fault is that of the player. If instead the player had fun while building up those ships, then the money is already well spent and thus isn't "lost".

So if I enjoy my day job then boss shouldn't have to pay me?

Anything can have value if people deem it to. Just look at gold - much less useful than steel or copper for almost every application, but for some reason people pay lots of money for it. By the same token, people pay money for the right to control one of these ships in this video game. You might think that's a silly use of their money, but it's a use of their money so the ships have value. If they're destroyed, that value is lost.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (4, Insightful)

DrugCheese (266151) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652120)

They're not real ships, and "thousands of dollars" were not lost.

But it did take a lot of time to build up the in game credits to buy those ships. And you do literally pay real money for time in game.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

zwei2stein (782480) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652698)

Not only that, time you spend playing has also intristic value for yourself, as you could be doing something profitable. If you transalte time needed to get those ships to dollar/per hour of, say, fast food dummy, you get quite impressive numbers too.

You can choose not to play and insted use money you gain by working isntead to actually buy ingame credits (players can buy one monst subscription for real currency and resell it for ingame gold.).

So yeah, You could very well have literally bought those shiny ships for your real hard earned dollars. Or, you could have not played game and earned those thousands of $ instead.

It may have cost -real money- (1)

SlashDread (38969) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652844)

You can accumulate Interstellar Kredits (ISK) by gaming, or you can actually BUY it with real money.
After all you can sell PLEX (Pilot License EXtentions, essentially game cards) in game (for ISK) bought outside of the game with real money.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652176)

Well, especially in EvE, you might claim that indeed thousands of dollars were lost.

You see, it is possible in EvE through in-game means to sell game time card to other players for money. I.e. you buy a GTC for real money and can then sell that game time for in game money to other players. One could claim that it's not literally thousands of dollars but instead years of game time, but essentially, since it's a pay-to-play game, the effect is quite similar. Players could have used that money to buy game time instead. Or they might be forced to buy GTCs and sell them, since they're low on in-game money now (unlikely, considering who was involved, but still).

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (1)

Paradigma11 (645246) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652724)

If there are people who would have paid thousands of dollars for it then that is the amount that was lost. And it doesn't matter that you can't get the money out of the system in accordance with their policy otherwise illegal drugs would have no value either.

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (2, Informative)

Tuoqui (1091447) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652278)

I never got refunded when I lost ships due to Goons and their lag inducing tactics. Why should they get any refund when they get lag pwned?

Re:I'm not sure about their policy... (4, Informative)

jameslore (219771) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652642)

Because we didn't get lag, we got a failure of the game system. We stared at a black screen for 2 and a half hours. My killmail is dated 30 minutes after I logged off.

Lag is expected in a fleet fight of any size. You expect to be able to see that someone is present though, even if you're not sure if they're shooting you or not.

Whether you like the Goons or not, that's not a fun game to play for either side. Hell, when IT and the Goons agree things are broken and need fixing you know there's either a problem or it's the end times.

Easy fix (0)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651774)

The thing about network issues is, they are an easy fix. Get a faster internet connection and buy more servers. Yeah, you can optimize your code and get similar results, but its usually one of the few problems in technology you can throw money at and get good results.

Re:Easy fix (2, Informative)

Dest (207166) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652128)

This shows how uneducated you are about these things.

Re:Easy fix (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652166)

If it was easy, don't you think it would have been done already? Even Blizzard can't handle the load of an entire server in one area and had to create a random queue to let people into Wintergrasp.

Re:Easy fix (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652408)

"Even Blizzard"?

Just 'cause they have the largest subscriber numbers doesn't mean they know anything about server load balancing and handling hundreds of players in close vicinity. There's a reason why they opened auction houses in all the starting areas, ya know...

Re:Easy fix (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652298)

Is it the internet connection? Or is it the throughput of the NIC, the loading time of the HDs, the processing time necessary, or is it...

Not always it's easy to identify the bottleneck. Throwing more resources at something is not always an option, there are physical, and technical, limits.

Re:Easy fix (1)

bug1 (96678) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652418)

I think they have stated that their bottleneck is the database (microsoft btw), everthing in the are has to be tracked and eve does most of the work on the server, its a very light client.

Re:Easy fix (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652432)

Well, like basically any MMO client. Like any MMO client has to be.

You can't really let the client do much more than take input and display the result. Anything besides that opens you to a lot of abuse.

Kinda Cool (4, Interesting)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651784)

I still don't think I'll sign over my credit card to a MM online game, but a game that lets you destroy THOUSANDS of dollars of stuff that other people value for the sheer malicious joy . . . well, that's perversely COOL!

Re:Kinda Cool (2, Funny)

TheLink (130905) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652008)

Some people already do that in the financial world.

Oh yeah, they do treat it as a game.

Re:Kinda Cool (3, Funny)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652190)

Ummm... who do I write to for a bailout for my lost ships? Hey, my alliance sure is too big to fail!

Re:Kinda Cool (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652846)

I still don't think I'll sign over my credit card to a MM online game, but a game that lets you destroy THOUSANDS of dollars of stuff that other people value for the sheer malicious joy . . . well, that's perversely COOL!

Destroy thousands of dollars of stuff? You mean donate it to CCP games don't you?

Why Am I Not Surprised (5, Funny)

GammaKitsune (826576) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651788)

Only in EVE would the players decide that network failures are a factor they should take into consideration.

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (1)

el_tedward (1612093) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651796)

I agree. I've played a few MMO's before, and in every single one of those, you'd never hear the end of the shit storm something like this would spawn.

I'll take that ... (1)

ccozan (754085) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652324)

...for any WoW patch afterdays!

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651838)

EVE has an actual functioning economy and the main story is actually driven by the players themselves. You are encouraged to use everything at your disposal even play multiple accounts so it only makes sense network issues would become part of the game.

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651928)

Naturally. The playerbase is used to swallowing garbage, after all.

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (4, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652126)

Only in EVE would you try and have thousands of players meet in a single location to fight.

From the sound of it, the number of people who were in that particular star system (or trying to get in) exceeds the number of players on many WOW instances. Yet, all in all, that was probably at most a few percent of the players online at the time, and they're all connected to the same game world.

That said, a single star system on EVE is hosted by a single physical server. Less-used systems can be grouped together to save on hardware, but for a big fight like this CCP fires up their most powerful hardware and puts the relevant system(s) on dedicated servers. While they're getting good at this - a few years ago 200 ships was a big fight, these days it's a common occurrence - it's still going to be an awful strain on the server to support that many players in combat. In a situation like that, the players need to take the limitations of computer hardware into account, and plan accordingly.

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (3, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652214)

In a situation like that, the players need to take the limitations of computer hardware into account, and use it to gain an edge.

It's EvE, after all.

Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652656)

In this particular case, there were 1340 people in the same star system at peak. A star system is handled by a single server, due to code limitations - CCP have stated that they want to improve the code so that a single system can be managed by multiple servers, but they are not yet there. About a year ago, this number of people fighting in the same system would've been next to impossible. CCP later improved their code to be able to handle fleet fights of 1500+ players with reasonable responsiveness (IE, lagged but playable). Due to the fact that eve is more of a tactical simulator than an action sim, lag is not always such a big issue. A five or ten second weapons activation lag is actually playable in a fashion, unlike many other games.

Now, keep in mind that this is actually 1340 players fighting on a single physical server, with upwards of 50,000 players logged in at the same time on the single world shard of eve. Compare this to many other MMOs, where you may have 1340 players total on a shard cluster.

Now, EVE is not designed for 1340 players. The fact that that many players are able to play in a single solar system at all is a testament to the sandbox nature of eve, where the developers have decided to try to avoid hard limits as much as possible (IE, no 25-man raids or maximum players on the server), but instead allow the players to use as much as they can and want. This obviously results in situations where the servers cannot cope, which is a known problem with fleet fights. CCP's response has traditionally been "Yes, we allow you to do this, but be aware of the potential consequences - we won't reimburse you for lag or poor server performance". The alternative would've been hard limits on the number of people on a node, which would've favoured those who made it in first, with the most people on their side - there are no defined sides in eve, so you cannot for instance let in 100 red and 100 blue.

The battle that the OP refers to was one of those cases. It was well known that server performance was unreliable after the Dominion patch. In many cases, this would prevent fleet fights from occurring, and when they did occur, they were often one-sided massacres. Knowing this, and despite being warned by their allies numerous times, the opposing force still decided to enter the system. Not only that, but they also decided to jump in at the same time, instead of staggering their jumpins - something that has been proven to reduce lag and avoid people getting stuck in loading - or jumping in to different "grids". In fact, leaked logs indicate that they did this knowingly with the intent of crashing an already overloaded node, so that they'd be at an even footing when the server came back up.

In the end, this backfired and they lost their entire fleet as a result.

Once again, CCP allows fleetfights with no hard limit on the number of participants, but their stance is "Yes, we allow you to do this, but be aware of the potential consequences - we won't reimburse you for lag or poor server performance".

Thousands? Say it isn't so! (-1, Flamebait)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651794)

Oh, no, thousands of dollars of assets were destroyed! Despite the fact that they only provided value for an incredibly small slice of the human race, this tragedy is surely front-page material for any website.

And in other news, this morning while my mom was on the way to work, she couldn't avoid a piece of road debris, causing thousands of dollars of assets to be destroyed. She had to pull over and call a tow truck.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651952)

And in other news, this morning while my mom was on the way to work, she couldn't avoid a piece of road debris, causing thousands of dollars of assets to be destroyed. She had to pull over and call a tow truck.

Is your mom willing to host a LAN party?
Because that'd totally be news for nerds.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652042)

Slashdot has been posting stories like this since its inception, and your self-righteous whining about it isn't going to change that. So shut the fuck up. Also, no one gives a tin shit about your fucking mom.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652108)

Also, no one gives a tin shit about your fucking mom.

On behalf of every member of his mom's local high school's football team, I humbly beg to differ.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652246)

As does the entire crew of the USS Nimitz. She is a legend. Hup!

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652222)

Sorry to be blunt, but an event that affects multiple hundred people is more newsworthy than one that affects only one. But thanks for your participation.

To be more sensible, certainly we're talking makebelieve money here. Then again, given the current economy, I'm not so sure the stuff we use to buy goods and services is anything better.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652574)

We aren't talking about imaginary money. Eve currency has a real dollar value, because...people value it. Exact same reason why government-backed currencies have value. It's valued by a smaller population, but that doesn't really matter - the assets that were destroyed could have been sold for a real dollar value.

Re:Thousands? Say it isn't so! (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652736)

What's a "real dollar value"? Oh, what other people consider it worth? Ok, then ISK are basically like USD, just for a smaller group of people.

Thousands? Far from accurate... (0)

mr_da3m0n (887821) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651806)

...effectively annihilated the enemy fleet, destroying thousands of dollars' worth of in-game assets.

If you have played eve, at this point you will know that a thousand ISK is small change. Even a million is pretty much small change. In fact, the Titan ships mentionned in there are rumored to cost around 60 billions. Sixty billions. That's far from thousands.

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (0)

icegreentea (974342) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651818)

They mean thousands of real dollars that have been used to purchase in game assets...

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (0)

mr_da3m0n (887821) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651858)

Oh, you're probably right. Nevermind me then, and this only makes the story more amusing.

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (1)

Rakshasa Taisab (244699) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651828)

You seem to have RL and virtual life mixed up. Try going outside your house, but be careful.. The bright fire in the sky can burn unprotected skin.

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (1)

fake_name (245088) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651872)

You do know that an isk is not worth a dollar right?

Consider either the cost to buy 60B isk from currency sellers, or take the total man-hours needed to make a Titan and multiply by minimum wage, and then you'll have a much more useful figure representing how my *real* value was invested in those ships.

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (1)

michaelhood (667393) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652036)

You do know that an isk is not worth a dollar right?

Consider either the cost to buy 60B isk from currency sellers, or take the total man-hours needed to make a Titan and multiply by minimum wage, and then you'll have a much more useful figure representing how my *real* value was invested in those ships.

If you google 'buy ISK', there are a ton of ads from places selling - if you buy 60B, even with the bulk discount, it will cost about $2200 at the places I checked..

Re:Thousands? Far from accurate... (3, Informative)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652248)

Hmm... last time I checked a PLEX was about 300m for 30 days. 15 USD=300m, so a Titan would "cost" about 3000 USD, the equivalent of 200 months of play time. So I guess the description could well be correct.

It was their own fault (4, Insightful)

Rakshasa Taisab (244699) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651812)

It's well known and not even contested that the forces bridging in to the system black-screened and never got to fight.

However, they got what they deserved. The node in question was not reinforced due to the unexpected nature of the fight (as in; the notification system was not used to put the system on a dedicated server). And jumping into large fights was well know to be bugged since the expansion and the Fleet Commander was made aware by an alliance member that the specific way in which they were going to enter the fight would trigger the bug.

They ignored all those warnings and decided to go ahead. Sources claim the intent was to crash the node and get a more even fight once it got up, multiple accounts even got banned for spamming local chat. Funny thing is the bug seems to be in the simultaneous transfer of 100+ ships into an overloaded system, and doesn't affect people warping around within a system once they are there. This being the worst possible situation for the attempted rescue of the system.

Re:It was their own fault (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651904)

For those who don't know, there were already 750-800 players in the system when the defending forces decided to jump into the system. It was a stupid move on the part of the commanders, and they deserved to be shot down like they were.

EvE has many thousands of systems, and many have very few players in them a large portion of the time. CCP requests that when large alliances are going to have a large fight that they notify them so they can put the system in question on a more powerful server to support the large number of players.

Goonswarm, PL, and SOT knew that the system in question was going to be attacked and failed to inform CCP. After they lost the race to get players in the system first, they decided to attemp to crash the node by spaming the local chat channel and jumping everyone in at the same time, and then beat IT alliance back into the system when the server came back up, but they failed, and lost a record dollar value of ships for one fight. Before that fight there had only been about 15-20 titans killed across the whole game, and they lost 4 in one fight. Pretty epic.

Re:It was their own fault (1)

martijnd (148684) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652078)

Seems the next project for the EVE programmers is dynamic reallocation of their solar systems based on number of people in local to a smaller set of high-performance systems.

Either that -- or the server whose load goes up (people in local climbing over treshhold) should start offloading lower priority solar systems it also hosts to other servers to reduce its CPU/Memory usage.

Re:It was their own fault (1)

TopSpin (753) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652220)

Maybe. Dynamically moving systems to faster CPUs will raise the ceiling a little. The game is growing; the big alliances have 4000+ players. Eventually they'll break the fastest CPUs CCP can get their hands on.

The servers use "cooperative multithreading" (their term, not mine) which means it can't be distributed across cores because the system isn't thread safe. Read about it here [slideshare.net] .

EVE just doesn't scale. Microthreads, green threads, whatever you want to call them, are elegant and efficient while your problem fits inside one core. When it doesn't you get this fail.

Re:It was their own fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652290)

You can only reinforce nodes at downtime. (Because they change server topology to do it). IT paid off the defecting SOT corp to drop sov after downtime causing a fight before the node could be reinforced.

Re:It was their own fault (2, Informative)

piggydoggy (804252) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652082)

Sadly the node couldn't be reinforced in time, as CCP's policy requires it to be done during the daily downtime. Yet thanks to a screwup by the original owners of the system, the attackers (in this battle) had only 12 hours to make their move and attack the system - not enough to wait for the next downtime and node reinforcement.

Re:It was their own fault (1)

Airdorn (1094879) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652148)

CCP employees are already known to collude with player alliances that contain their own employees, and CCP itself seems unwilling to combat that problem. So notifying CCP about a coming fleet fight is akin to giving it all away to the enemy.

Re:It was their own fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652862)

You sound like you're either in IT or have an axe to grind with Goonswarm. So I'm guessing we should have done nothing and let SoT hand IT a system right next to Delve without a fight? PL jumping Titans in before the lag was tested was an idiot move, granted. But I for one would like to actually play this internet spaceship game I was formally paying for as opposed to sitting in station spinning ships.

And no, as far as I'm aware there was no intent to crash the node though you and every one else on CAOD can keep spouting that as much as you want. The situation of the node crashing was taken into account in case it would happen, but it was not the plan.

Reminds me of the recent Star Trek film... (1)

VinylRecords (1292374) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651836)

The scene where Kirk is facing off against Spock's unbeatable scenario and shuts down the servers temporarily, disabling the shields all of Spock's ships, before blowing them up.

Blaming the servers? (1)

fake_name (245088) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651850)

"annihilated amidst controversy"? When has there ever been any significant battle in Eve that didn't feature people blaming server issues for their loss? (often correctly, I might add)

Thousands? Try multi BILLIONS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651866)

When you write about something like Titans, your talking about multi-BILLIONS in game assets. To have lost 4 or 5 is enough to bankrupt many Corps. Not to mention all the cap ships and support fleets that went down. Its always nice to see GoonSwarm get the smackdown.

EVE Online. (3, Informative)

MindlessAutomata (1282944) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651868)

I'm not trolling, but I fail to see the point of EVE for several reasons. I used to play EVE myself for a few months but quit...

One, why play a game that takes you at least a year to be able to do anything fun and useful? That's not a game at all, that's a job.

Two, CCP has shown themselves in the past to be shady and unreliable, having developers specifically favor certain alliances and otherwise abuse their powers for their own in-game corporations.

Three, the amount of bugs and inability to cope for server stress for large battles (which is the meat and potatoes of this game--large space wars!) has apparently been evident for quite some time now.

I understand that EVE online fills a niche few other games do, and EVE is probably the only one that even attempts what it does, but, IMO, that in no way means the CCP has displayed what I would consider a necessary amount of competence or good game design to make me want to play it. I mean, if Age of Conan (no, EVE is nowhere near the mess that game was at) was the only MMO out there I still wouldn't play it even though I like MMOs.

It's pretty poor form when CCP will claim that subscribers need to account for their own ineptitude when playing their game and not take responsibility for their own, and not even fire the developers that gave unfair advantages to their own corporations way back when. And I hear the game masters are incompetent jerks, too...

Re:EVE Online. (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651966)

It's a game for people that want to treat a game as a job, and who think PvP is the only real fun out there. Ie, hyper-competitive people that tend to be scary in real life too.

Re:EVE Online. (4, Informative)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651974)

1) It takes about a month to fly an interceptor. I'd far rather have a newbie in an interceptor than a battleship, they'll be worthless learning in the battleship. This is just plain wrong.
2) This has vastly improved with the creation of the internal affairs department. The problem with CCP is more incompetence (mostly on the part of the low-level GMs) than outright malice.
3) The Reinforced node system helps, but is too limited. This is honestly the biggest issue with the game. The servers need to be able to support the player base.
I play EVE because I enjoy small scale combat with meaningful risks. If I wanted to have epic battles with thousands of ships I'd probably be disappointed in it, but for 10-20 man roaming gangs it's very fun.

Re:EVE Online. (4, Interesting)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652234)

Mod parent up!

You can have enough skill points to be useful in 0.0 (the unsecured space where players make all the rules and large alliances carve out empires) before the end the free trial. Sure, you won't be able to kill the most valuable NPCs or take on almost anybody in a solo fight, but you can make more than enough money to support buying the ships and gear that your skills allow you to use, and you can certainly be useful in a roaming gang or defensive camp. Heck, you might even get lucky and find some idiot with a hauler full of valuables and nobody escorting him (happened to me once) in which case you really only need a warp disrupter (cheap and easy to train for) and enough firepower to overcome the hauler's shield recharge rate (which you could get by your second day of playing the game).

EVE and CCP may never completely live down poor decisions on the part of several employees, but the game itself goes on and for most people such events are scarcely newsworthy for a week. While we'd certainly prefer if such things had never happened, they're old news - almost irrelevant by now - and the CCP has taken some fairly solid steps to prevent such things from happening again.

From the sound of it, this fight was executed wrong in almost every possible way, perhaps most importantly in that CCP wasn't notified ahead of time so they could put the system on high-end dedicated hardware. Consider also that having hundreds of people in the system used to be enough, by itself, to cause atrocious lag (even if they weren't fighting one another), a problem which is very rare today. Now, while fights with nearly 1000 player/side might still be a bit more than the game can handle, a few hundred per side is commonplace and a thousand total is well within the capabilities of the "reinforced" (with dedicated servers) nodes.

Re:EVE Online. (1)

jameslore (219771) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652660)

You can only reinforce a node at downtime. Hence, the problem here: no one knew there would be a fight until after downtime had passed.

Re:EVE Online. (2, Informative)

techhead79 (1517299) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652136)

A year to do anything useful? That's what you got from playing for a few months?

I don't really see any difference between that and say WoW where what everyone tells you the first goal is to get to level 80. How long does that take you assuming you don't have a pal leveling you through everything or you were not so devoted that you went out and found a leveling guide and followed it to the letter. All games like this take HUGE amounts of time. I don't see how eve is any different.

The major problem with eve besides huge fleet battles is the repeating cycle of quests...but again this is seen in other games as well like eve.

There are some people in game saying it was closer to 1,300 ships...not just a couple hundred...I mean come on...how many games out there can handle a battle in real time with 1300 players? Eve has done a lot and there are many things unique in it...but I'd agree...it's just a game...no point in making it a job.

Re:EVE Online. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652188)

For an absolute expert, it takes 2-3 days of played time to get to 80. For a good player, 6-7 days. For a dedicated newbie, about 10.

So in a month, you get to the bulk of the game. But the process to get there is hardly uneventful.

If you take longer than 10 days of played time to get to 80, you took that long because you were enjoying it.

Re:EVE Online. (3, Interesting)

jeff4747 (256583) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652150)

Two, CCP has shown themselves in the past to be shady and unreliable, having developers specifically favor certain alliances and otherwise abuse their powers for their own in-game corporations.

Three, the amount of bugs and inability to cope for server stress for large battles (which is the meat and potatoes of this game--large space wars!) has apparently been evident for quite some time now.

IMO, these two issues are caused by CCP's location. There's not a vast number of high-quality programming talent in Iceland. (Simply because there isn't a vast number of people). CCP has had a "Senior Programmer" open position on their web site for a couple of years now.

Frankly, the reason I left EvE is that the quality of the already mediocre code was heading downhill rapidly. My personal tipping point was the bug where in-game browser bookmarks were not properly imported by their new in-game browser. If the Devs can't even do that right, then how can anyone expect much from the rest of their code?

Re:EVE Online. (3, Informative)

Korin43 (881732) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652158)

I don't play anymore, but I think you're wrong about your first point. One of the reasons the Goonswarm is so powerful is that they recruit noobs in frigates and cruisers and then swarm the enemy. It's not like other games where a level 70 player could stand around being hit by a lower level character all day. You can destroy a titan using frigates (and the titan likely wouldn't even be able to fight back, it's only options would be to call for help or run away). If you think you need to have a big ship to do anything fun or "be useful", you're missing the point.

Re:EVE Online. (1)

Killeri (238792) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652170)

You can fly a "tackler" in a couple of days (tackler is a ship that is designated to get in fast, hold an enemy ship for 10-20 seconds until the heavy ships get in, and then bail out). You can fly a decent mining ship in a couple of days. You can start doing effective trading in a few weeks. Production does take a bit longer to do effectively.

Re:EVE Online. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652808)

Eve drama and politics are like nothing else you will ever find in any other game. If you are in an alliance that kind of knows what's going on and explains it to their members (basically only Goonswarm as far as I'm aware, IT/KenBobKu are notorious for giving their members the rosey censored view of everything) it's some of the most intriguing stuff you'll ever hear. Oh and PS. Don't go by anything you read on Scrapheap or CAOD as they are notoriously biased and unreliable. Kugu's not too bad but even he doesn't always get it right.

Here is video of the battle... (5, Informative)

toxygen01 (901511) | more than 4 years ago | (#30651912)

Re:Here is video of the battle... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652000)

HAHA Friggin awesome fight... always good to see Goons getting a smackdown.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Funny)

Korbeau (913903) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652014)

I have no clue about how this game work, but judging by the video the big vessels clearly should have gone into Ludicrous Speed mode!

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Funny)

ijakings (982830) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652766)

Or done a barrel roll.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (4, Insightful)

routerl (976394) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652356)

That really looks terribly boring. After decades of big budget sci-fi movies, not to mention epic space battle video games like Homeworld, this is the best space combat system that EVE can offer? There didn't seem to be any maneuvering involved at all... might as well be a text based game.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652620)

That really looks terribly boring. After decades of big budget sci-fi movies, not to mention epic space battle video games like Homeworld, this is the best space combat system that EVE can offer? There didn't seem to be any maneuvering involved at all... might as well be a text based game.

That's because you don't see any interceptors or for that matter any other small craft flying around. That might be a matter of scale or maybe their display is turned of to prevent the death of the graphics card. What you SEE is a big lump of imperial star destroyer sized ships and some death star sized ships which shouldnt move fast.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652694)

It was basically a one sided battle, shooting fish in a barrel because the other side was caught in lagland (server transition isn't so great in EvE when a few hundred ships are already in the system). So I guess if you're expecting to see a "battle", you have to end up disappointed. It's a bit like shooting sitting ducks that had their wings cut off.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Interesting)

seifried (12921) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652384)

I don't get it. Everyone just parks their ship and slugs it out? No maneuvering? Boring. Gratuitous Space Battles has way better game play.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (2, Informative)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652526)

You're looking at effing HUGE ships. There isn't much movement sensibly possible for them, they are slow and turn even slower. Battles in EvE are at this scale less a matter of maneuvering and moving yourself in position (ships that depend on that instead of huge hulls exist, too, and they serve a vital role, too). Battles of this size are highly influenced by actions before the battle even starts, they're more a matter of good logistics and efficient group management before, as well as good coordination of targets and boosting/enhancing in battle, less one of swift evasive maneuvers and dogfighting skills.

I admit, it's not really a looker (ok, for the EvE player in me it is, but from a non-player perspective it's maybe not much more interesting than the average screensaver), but considering what was necessary "behind the scenes" to make such a battle possible (and how many, many, many hours of "hard work" were wasted in mere minutes) makes the mind cringe.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652624)

Those are all capital ships, they can hardly move anyway. And dreadnoughts are in siege mode, so they can't move at all.
When using subcapitals fighting requires maneuvering.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652678)

That's because you don't see any interceptors or for that matter any other small craft flying around. That might be a matter of scale or maybe their display is turned of to prevent the death of the graphics card. What you SEE is a big lump of imperial star destroyer sized ships and some death star sized ships which shouldnt move fast.

You might want to look at other videos if you want to see the small vessel action.

Re:Here is video of the battle... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652394)

So this is supposed to be fun?

Re:Here is video of the battle... (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652854)

Here's a screenshot [ggpht.com] from the losing side!

well... if you think about it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30651944)

Sarki was a huge mountain gorilla, and usually not very amicable. But he had seemed to take to Kate immediately, usually hanging over her shoulder or something whenever she was in his cage. Today was no exception, as she climbed up toward the ceiling to get at the lights. There was a large platform near the ceiling and she climbed up to that in order to inspect the lights better.

Sarki pulled his bulk right up next to her, but there was plenty of room up there. She stood up and craned her neck, trying to look straight up while keeping her balance. Suddenly, she felt a large hand on her ass, slowly stroking it, She turned around quickly, and found Sarki staring at her as his hand caressed her. She stood frozen, afraid that he might push her off the ledge or something. But what he actually did was bring his other hand up and began to feel her breasts through her t-shirt.

Standing very still, Kate slowly reached out, to push Sarki's hand away from her breast, she gripped his thumb, and twisted his hand back away from her. The animal became mad at this action, and shoved Kate roughly back, she fell over trying to stop her forward motion, not wanting to fall over the edge of the platform. Kate landed hard, on her stomach, and had the wind knocked out of her. She lay there for a moment struggling for breath, then to her shock she felt her shorts being ripped from her body. Sarki just tore the material apart like it was paper. Kate was frozen with fear by the beast's exhibition of shear strength. She wanted nothing more than to get out of this situation as fast as she could.

Kate knew that her life was in danger, she couldn't understand why Sarki was acting so aggressively toward her, but she knew that she was all alone at the zoo, and that she had better do something quickly. As Kate began to recover from the forceful push that she had received from the gorilla, she started to get up on hands and knees with the intention of climbing down as fast as she could. But this was not what happened.

With shocking roughness the beast took one of his fingers stabbed Kate from behind, right into her now exposed hole. His finger, though not as long as a man's penis, was just as wide and she began to squirm on it. His other hand fell from her breasts and curled around her ass, pulling her closer. He brought his face close to her and stared at her with great interest. His hand was working her over, the beast was becoming aroused by Kate's body.

She screamed, flailing at the apes chest, as she twisted and turned trying to escape from his grasp. But no matter what she did, she couldn't break his grip on her. He kept up his fingering of her pussy and she kept up her struggles to get away.

The ape finally grew tired of fighting with the human female, and smacked her across the face knocking Kate
into shocked submission. She was stunned and had temporarily lost her wits. The huge ape was totally aroused by now, and he flipped Kate back over on her stomach, and moved downward, further, until his now erect huge cock was staring right at her.

All thoughts of anything else quickly flew away with the sight of it, and she immediately knew what was going to happen to her, she couldn't believe it, she had never even thought that something like this could happen. But the great ape just started poking her face with his huge erect cock, trying to enter her mouth, finally after several attempts, and another smack to the head he shoved the tip of his cock between her lips and made Kate take it in her mouth, taking great pleasure from this, he began to force it in farther in obvious excitement.

His cock grew to an un-believable size that she could barely keep in her mouth. She could taste the few drops of his sexual fluids that were seeping out of his now rock hard cock.

After forcing her face against his crotch for a few minutes he pulled away, then pushed Kate down flat on the platform and spread her legs. With his finger he stabbed again into her pussy, which had become wet from the fear she felt, and something else, was it excitement, was it excitement of the unknown, of something that had never happened before? She couldn't tell... didn't seem to care anymore!

He withdrew his finger and pressed his face against her chest, his tongue coming out and licking her nipples. He moved downward and slurped at her wet hole. She groaned, what was happening to her. She was being raped by a beast a filthy animal, yet she was feeling all the sensations that she would with a human man. Sarki began to lick her pussy with real fervor, and this made Kate moan louder and louder, just as she was about to orgasm, he roughly pushed her away.

She landed on her stomach again, and as she began to pick her self up, confused, she felt a huge cock fill her box. Sarki's breath came in rough gasps as he shoved his tool deeper and deeper into her. She began to groan even louder, and his pace quickened. After a few minutes of this, Kate couldn't hold back any longer. Her cunt exploded in a series of orgasms around his spike.

She bucked her hips upwards against his huge body, and with her contractions came a jerking from deep within him, and after a second or two she could feel his Cumm filling her. She couldn't believe it, he just kept pumping sperm into her vagina, in quantities that began to squirt from between the seal of his cock, and her cunt lips. She looked down under her stomach and saw Sarki's sperm flowing down the inside of her thighs. He slowly stopped his rammings, and allowed her to climb out from under him. She realized that he had supported himself on his knuckles the entire time to avoid crushing her.

Kate sat there looking at the ape, her knees pulled up, her head resting on her arms. So many thoughts were racing through her mind. She really could tell no one about this, there wasn't anything she could do, no one would believe her anyway.

Re:well... if you think about it (1)

Twisted64 (837490) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652152)

Isn't this offtopic? I'm not familiar with EvE Online, but your post doesn't seem to be addressing the same issues as the other posts. Probably meant to post to another topic (G-Spot article?) and got mixed up, that happens sometimes.

Re:well... if you think about it (1)

Asclepius99 (1527727) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652154)

I'm guessing the ape is the IT Alliance and GoonSwarm is the zoo worker.

Re:well... if you think about it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652272)

GoonSwarm is most definitely the zoo worker. However, the IT Alliance is actually the lightbulb. The ape is CCP. And, if you remember the dev-bob-bpo fiasco of a few years ago, you'll know just how much that little monkey loves his lightbulb.

Re:well... if you think about it (1)

Drumpig (13514) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652292)

That makes much more sense.

Offline alternatives ? (3, Informative)

Antiocheian (859870) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652174)

Gamers with a tighter schedule (work, studies, family etc) or a lagging connection to online servers should really consider an offline alternative that goes with their own pace and allows time speed adjustment. Without time speed adjustment (which is by definition incompatible to large online games) space games can be extremely time consuming.

X3 Reunion + Xtended mod (I didn't like TC very much) is a good alternative but I'd be willing to know more.

Their server software uses python (1)

bug1 (96678) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652358)

Props to CCP for contributing to the development of "stackless python", but maybe they should write their server code in a different language.

technical issue (1)

voudras (105736) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652650)

this is, from my perspective, without a doubt a technical issue.

the people who got wiped out, if the killboards are correct - only destroyed 3 ships (helios, onyx and anathema)

for them to not have dropped any other ships in such and engagement, given their capability - can only mean they could not move or couldn't even see they were in a fight.

the killboards would also suggest the engagement was 421 against 65, even at those odds they should have destroyed a portion of the other fleet. even if it was 842 vs 65, nothing would prevent them from attacking except a technical issue.

i have been in engagements with over 800 in system (before dominion) and was able to function.

so, certainly there was a record broken on sheer lost of assets in one stroke, but it defiantly needs a foot note.

(also, if there was a deliberate attempt to drop the node, well yea - strike against them too, anyway)

there will no doubt be a rematch as the attacking alliance still owns another 20 titans

Anonymous Coward (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30652740)

I'm a Goon and I was there, sat a system out because I was late and didn't jump in, listened as everyone lost their shit, will not x up again until CCP unfuck their servers. Pre-dominion fights with these numbers were doable (I believe the final count was 1700). You'd get some module lag and might e-warp when you jump in but you could at least fight.

Now, all you have to make your move post downtime (node reinforcement requests have to be made at least one downtime ahead, SoT dropped their shit post downtime that day, I know a request was made but the node wasn't reinforced) and then pack the system with more than 300 people and keep eyes on all the gates (this is a doable number in eve, some people might need to stay up late or call off work but when the alternative is several weeks of work to take the system back you just do it). Then, when the attackers jump or bridge in you just turkey shoot wherever they show up while they're blackscreened for 3 hours trying to load.

It's funny that CCP went through all this trouble to make an RPer news brief (I bet some guy in provi creamed his jorts at THAT little piece of roleplay gold) about a giant space battle when there wasn't even a fight. PL was dumb as hell for jumping a bunch of titans in, but considering no one involved except the NC had been in a fight this big since before Dominion they have some cover for not expecting the situation to turn out as bad as it did.

Regardless, this is really all good for us. While IT have a station right next door to us they still have to come like 10 jumps through junk space to actually get to anything and we can do pretty much the exact same thing they did to us in every station system (of which we have like 40 and, thanks to ccp, it requires 4 days of poopsocking to take a station. If you lose one of those days you have to start all over).

This is of course unless CCP pulls another t20 and fixes the situation right before IT shows up on our doorstep, one of the reasons I'm unsubbing three accounts is there were things that happened in that 'fight' with bombers and grid load for people who were already in system that were pretty damn suspicious, I will keep the details to myself however as some of it is opsec.

Dominion was supposed to shake up 0.0 sov warfare. It has (in usual CCP fashion) instead pretty much killed it.

Obligatory 'u mad' 'tl:dr' 'cool story bro' etc etc

Ohhhhhh... Let the Drama begin! (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30652824)

The allegations that IT (the victorious side in the battle) was the "successor alliance" of BoB (to inform the ones not caring too much about EvE: The alliance that allegedly had undue and "illegal" help from CCP insiders) and that it's the whole BoB inside job deal again are already starting.

I love EvE. It's one of the few games where just watching the metagame, rumors and drama around it can be at least as entertaining as playing the game itself.

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