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China Emphasizes Laws As Google Defies Censorship

CmdrTaco posted more than 4 years ago | from the going-to-war dept.

Censorship 320

Lomegor writes "Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said on Thursday that all companies are welcome to operate in China but that they must do so under local laws. Although not explicitly, this is in some way a response to Google's threat to leave the country. China also stated that they have strict cyber laws and that they forbid any kind of 'hacking attack'; when asked if those laws apply to the government as well it was quickly avoided. 'It is still hard to say whether Google will quit China or not. Nobody knows,' the official in the State Council Information Office was quoted as saying." I sure would love to be a fly on the wall of these discussions. We certainly live in interesting times.

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Looks like email and the desktop were not enough (3, Interesting)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763260)

It seems that google has moved firmly into politics. I wonder if as a kid good ol' Sergey Brinn would have ever imaged how much of a difference he would make in the world.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (5, Interesting)

zwei2stein (782480) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763366)

Not politic, business.

Operating in china does not bring google profit. Add Baidou, a govt-subsidied competition and being routinelly hacked, they have reasons leave market. Saying they leave market makes them look weak and stock price would drop.

Making chinese goverment kick them out makes for quite nice PR stunt and will not really to much about stock price. And it actually makes them look strong.

They are still happy to censor in many other countries.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (2, Interesting)

Peteskiplayer (1032662) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763522)

Doesn't bring Google profit? With a 30+% market share that sounds unlikely. Could you please cite your source on that?

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763674)

If it doesn't bring profit, Google just isn't doing it correctly. Baidu and other companies can work on bringing profit there too. Like I mentioned in the earlier story [slashdot.org] , Google's business model is extremely easy to make work in different countries and market areas (even more so because their largest infrastructure costs would still be there)

And Google is working hard in other countries trying to gain marketshare. Google is spending millions trying to gain marketshare in Russia and paying the most popular local sites [tech-news-daily.info] to drop yandex and use themself instead (microsoft's tactics anyone?)

This isn't about profit margin.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

ottothecow (600101) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764102)

I'd imagine that while it might be profitable, the margins are probably nothing close to the margins in a more developed country.

There are lots of people in the world who can live for a day on the price of a popular adsense keyword...so I would imagine people in countries with a much lower cost and standard of living are not bringing in very much revenue for google. There is still some small benefit from the additional users/market share (and google's structure is very portable...just translate and go) but as soon as things start to become difficult, the profits might not be there to cover the expenses of dealing with messed up governments and widespread hacking.

I would bet china generates far far less revenue per user than the US so the added difficulties could very well make it unprofitable to continue service.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (2, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763552)

Exactly. They do in USA too, just look at the "x number of results were removed because of DMCA laws". It's basically the same thing, just different area. It's something US government see important, just like Chinese government see important the areas they're censoring. You can argue that "it's not the same thing", but really, it is. Different culture, different people. Remember that Chinese probably think some of your laws and censorship is weird and hilarious.

What do you think US courts would say if a company would come to operate in US but wouldn't work under US laws because they think differently on the issues? Exactly the same.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (5, Insightful)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763638)

Moral relativism needs to be shot to hell.

Comparing the DMCA to political censorship and torture is ridiculous.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (3, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763752)

Did you even read what I said?

Different cultures and people have different values. Just because you think something is more moral doesn't mean everyone does so. Your mentality and thinking mostly comes from the culture you grow in. So does theirs. Yes, they protest. So do people in the US - just see all the battle about patents, MPAA/RIAA and other issues here on slashdot.

Now I do not either think it's the same thing. But trying to force the same kind of thinking you have to other people, especially to people in other cultures, just sickens me. And US is particularly known for forcing their laws to other places in the world, even forcefully.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (5, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764040)

The GP accuses you of commiting a fallacy of scale, and I must say I agree.

Sure you can logically draw comparisons between the DMCA and chinese censorship laws, it's not particularly hard or imaginative. The problem is when you compare the two on equal grounds. One involves gross violations of basic human rights, the other involves less Brittany Spears remixes on youtube.

Don't get me wrong, I have strong moral issues with the US patent and copyright laws. But I have far greater issues with human rights violations, regardless of who commits them. Not all atrocities are created equal.

But trying to force the same kind of thinking you have to other people, especially to people in other cultures, just sickens me.

Call me crazy, but I don't excuse the things the Chinese government does just because they convinced their population that they should. If thinking that basic human rights are universal makes me an imperialistic American dog, then I am a proud imperialistic American dog.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

DarkVader (121278) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764036)

Nobody is comparing the DMCA to torture, but it most certainly IS political censorship.

And it's not moral relativism to say that censorship is just as repulsive in my own country as it is in China.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

furby076 (1461805) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763664)

And remember, Chinese citizens will still find a way to use many of googles products - no matter how much the chinese gov't tries to block google addresses.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

spydabyte (1032538) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763902)

How can you have business without politics?

How long until google leaves the US? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763918)

Or cyber crime to their servers in order to read political agitators emails are any
different then privacy crimes to individuals crossing borders in order to read political agitators emails?

Not to mention human rights crimes are very similar in both countries.

Both have LAWS that allows their gov agencies to kidnap their own people

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

marshallr (741074) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764066)

Not politic, business.

Operating in china does not bring google profit. Add Baidou, a govt-subsidied competition and being routinelly hacked, they have reasons leave market. Saying they leave market makes them look weak and stock price would drop.

Making chinese goverment kick them out makes for quite nice PR stunt and will not really to much about stock price. And it actually makes them look strong.

They are still happy to censor in many other countries.

Not business, politics.

Google operates in many markets where they are not yet profitable and continue to do so. Their investment in China is very small compared to the potential market and the size of the company, so it makes good business sense for them to try to keep developing their market while it is still growing, especially when they have other products besides search to offer (like Andoird, Google Voice, etc.). Google is not just a search engine. Unless someone's figured out there is something wrong with the future of Chinese economy, it's not business.

They will work with other countries when they feel it's beneficial. But when those governments backstab and sponser cyberattacks right after shaking hands with them, it shows cooperation doesn't work.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763756)

An interesting article on this on zerohedge [zerohedge.com] .
From the article:
 

So in our opinion, what all this posturing boils down to, is the fact that a new and dangerous war-front has opened up - one between the U.S. and China. Currently the war is economic, political and covert in nature. The U.S. government knows that the nations fiscal situation is abysmal and that China holds the trump card over its fate by being its largest creditor. In addition faced with rampant joblessness, a weakened U.S. consumer is more dependent that ever, on cheap goods manufactured in China. While cheap Chinese imports allow the Fed to keep a lid on domestic inflation, they do not alleviate rampant U.S. unemployment. Protectionist pressures are growing on a desperate U.S. government struggling to fix the unemployment situation. This tussle has led to the imposition of trade sanctions against Chinese companies on non-strategic sectors like certain steel and tire imports.

Re:Looks like email and the desktop were not enoug (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763766)

My newspaper said that Google is shaping US foreign policy. And they're working closely with Hillary Clinton on this.

It's great, exciting, but also a bit scary.

first (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763262)

first

Re:first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30764080)

Where's "-1 you fail" when you need it?

Two predictions (4, Interesting)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763268)

Prediction #1 - google.cn becomes unavailable in China today, never to return.

Prediction #2 - no other companies will stand with Google on this matter, preferring to endure Chinese hackers rather than turning away Chinese business.

Re:Two predictions (5, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763378)

The difference is probably that Google can easily do without the Chinese market. They're by far not the number one search engine in China. And the chance to become it is slim at best.

On the other hand, not playing along with China's demands would endear them greatly to a lot of groups. US nationalists and US government being amongst the first, not to mention every free-speech supporter from the EFF to most geeks around the globe. It sure would greatly improve their PR and image, and would probably make a few people overlook their own privacy "problems" because "at least they didn't bend over to the Chinese government".

Dunno if it would be so bad for Google to simply flip the Chinese the bird. The goodwill boost might offset the financial loss.

Re:Two predictions (4, Interesting)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763460)

The difference is probably that Google can easily do without the Chinese market. They're by far not the number one search engine in China.

That's what I've been reading as well but the numbers don't add up. I read that the Chinese internet market is currently 300 million people and skyrocketing daily, and that Google accounts for 1/3 of search results served in the country. So that's 100 million Google users. Why is Google so dismissive of this enormous number of customers?

Re:Two predictions (4, Informative)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763476)

Maybe those users have no market value? Why bother target an ad at someone who doesn't have the money to buy your stuff?

Re:Two predictions (1)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763520)

Maybe those users have no market value? Why bother target an ad at someone who doesn't have the money to buy your stuff?

Why advertise cigarettes to children? Market investment. Considering all the ridiculous projects Google releases and subsequently shuts down it's obvious they have money to burn on risky ventures. I can't believe Google considers China one of their more disposable investments.

Re:Two predictions (2, Informative)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763556)

Why bother target an ad at someone who doesn't have the money to buy your stuff?

Whose stuff? They make most of it, so technically it's their stuff. We don't have the money to buy it, that's why we have to borrow it from them.

Re:Two predictions (1, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763982)

China has the money. Not the Chinese. It's pretty much the last remnant of Communism that country has. I know it's hard to believe but allegedly they still have a Communist regime.

Personally, I think it has more similarities with Fascism by now.

Re:Two predictions (1, Insightful)

Beale (676138) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763626)

Remember that their customers are not the people who search but rather, the people who advertise to the people who search. If the Chinese advert market isn't making them money, they probably don't care so much about the people searching there.

Re:Two predictions (1)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763910)

It's a brand new and very unique market, though. It's not worth dismissing on a whim. China does things its own way and it's up to intelligent business to learn and offer compelling services for that market. Google absolutely excels at this. This isn't a simple matter of an unsuccessful company closing shop with its tail between its legs.

Either Google has an ulterior motive or they are earnestly trying to force China to change its stance on censorship in publishing. Or both. Regardless of their motive there's no such thing as bad publicity, right?

Re:Two predictions (4, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764114)

Because most of those people are relatively poor (compared to their Western counterparts, anyway) and because even a healthy revenue isn't worth subjecting yourself to someone stealing all of your company's proprietary secrets (which could cost Google a LOT more in the long-term than they are making with ad revenue in China).

Re:Two predictions (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763518)

Who needs Chinese business? Who has it to begin with? It seems like for the most part, Chinese pirate American software and don't bring in much ad revenue.

Saying that they're by far not number one in China is kind of pointless - they have at least 25% marketshare. If that's not enough to be profitable, what is?

Re:Two predictions (1)

fprintf (82740) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763590)

We lose money on every transaction, but at least we make up for it in volume!

Re:Two predictions (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763806)

They don't only pirate software, they pirate hardware beyond belief.

Get one piece of advanced equipment, send 20 engineers to reverse engineer it and construct thousands of copies using cheap rice fed laborers.

Re:Two predictions (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763858)

Reverse engineer? What for? You get the blueprints and assembly instructions free of charge, where do you think those "originals" are manufactured?

Re:Two predictions (4, Informative)

ihatewinXP (638000) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763382)

Ok Beijinger here. Used to actually work in the Google office in Zhongguancun...

Prediction #1 - Not yet. Which is interesting (youre probably right in that China wont capitulate and it is coming). I think it honestly might be a grace period for everyone to move their accounts. When I woke up today I had the same feeling when an email was bouncing back - and all of a sudden realized that ALL my accounts are gmail. Time to set up some forwards pronto.

Prediction #2 - Exactly right. Yahoo and Microsoft (and ESPECIALLY Baidu of course) wont say a goddamn thing and will be happy with the gain in marketshare. Baidu (the leader in the Chinese market) stock went up over 20% today on the news.

Ahh China. Interesting times.

Re:Two predictions (3, Interesting)

spyrochaete (707033) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763444)

I wasn't referring only to search companies in my comment. Other articles on this story mentioned that Google had identified similar security breaches in at least 20 other companies, and I doubt those were all search/email companies. It will be very interesting to see whether any or all of those companies are identified and what their reaction will be. I was pretty shocked at Google's fierce ultimatum (suddenly removing censorship, effectively punishing the government for the hackers' actions) and will be doubly astounded if any other company dares to ally themselves with such brash action.

Re:Two predictions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763394)

Prediction#2 is right on spot and the evidence is right with us. We (the people) never stopped buying Chinese made cheap stuff.
We actually encourage companies (by going to competitor who is selling cheap stuff) to do it.
We all will praise Google and then go back to shopping cheapest of electronics, clothes, pet food, toys.. on and on and on.

Re:Two predictions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763442)

Full disclosure: I am a Google employee in China. Reports of Google pulling out of China are greatly exagNO CARRIER

grammar fail (-1, Troll)

melikamp (631205) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763284)

Although not explicitly, this is in some way a response to Google threat to leave the country. China also stated that they strict cyber laws and that the it forbids any kind of "hacking attack"; when asked if those laws apply to the government as well it was quickly avoided.

Re:grammar fail (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763348)

Oh wow, I never realized how poorly these summaries are written. I didn't even notice until you pointed it out.

Re:grammar fail (1)

LordAndrewSama (1216602) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763364)

maybe they used google translator to get the summary from chinese?

Re:grammar fail (1)

Lomegor (1643845) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763492)

No, just trying to write at work without anyone noticing and having a keyboard that works half the time. Also, stupidity

China loses nothing (0)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763292)

There are other search engines. Google, otoh, loses a huge market.

Re:China loses nothing (1)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763360)

But what a reputation gain !

Re:China loses nothing (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763572)

Your signature is apt in this situation. But people, by and large, barely care if the clothes they wear are made by child slave labor as long as they don't have to look at them and deal with it. Google's reputation win will soonbe forgotten.

Re:China loses nothing (3, Insightful)

tokul (682258) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763434)

There are other search engines. Google, otoh, loses a huge market.

They will lose only if Chinese Firewall starts blocking them. You can't lose part of Internet market by moving outside of country.

Re:China loses nothing (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763772)

They will lose only if Chinese Firewall starts blocking them

I don't think the Chinese Firewall blocks *anything*. My mail server is constantly getting spammed shitless by servers apparently in China - at least, whois reports them as being in China and within netblocks that are supposedly behind the Great Firewall - so I put some "known filter trigger" keywords in the exim banner message. Didn't make a bit of difference. Either they aren't filtering at all, or they're not filtering traffic on port 25.

RE: Fly on the wall (5, Informative)

That_Dan_Guy (589967) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763458)

The original post thinks it would interesting to be the fly on the wall to the "discussions"

I lived over there for 5 years. I don't think it would be quite so interesting unless you haven't been following Chinese politics and all for the past 15 (or 65) years. There will likely be two camps in the Gov't. One that sees the problems of letting a company like Google be forced out of China (call them the Capitalists) and the group that has been trying to make this sort of thing happen ever since the first let foreign companies in in the first place (the Nationalist Communists if you will).

The thing of it is, the Capitalists sympathize with the Nationalists. They just don't want it to be so overt and obvious.

You just have to understand they don't see what they're doing as wrong in any way. Protecting their regime is #1. It has been for thousands of years for whoever is in power there. Currently you can describe it as Nationalism. Go back and read about the lead up to WWI and you'll get a sense of the mind set of many of the people in China, if not the majority. War (with Taiwan) would be glorious, an Empire is a right of China's and to some Everything (worldwide) is part of China and maps should show that.

Re:China loses nothing (1)

asdf7890 (1518587) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764042)

There are other search engines. Google, otoh, loses a huge market.

But does that huge market actually make Google enough money to be worth the hassle and the public derision (in other markets) for bowing to the Chinese censorship laws? Without a close look at the relevant financials and internal costs we just don;t know. If what they stand to gain (reputation in other marks, reduced hassle/expense through not running google.cn and other admin, and so forth) is worth more to them than what money being able to advertise users based in China might bring in, then it might make commercial sense to leave that market and let others put up with the hassle.

Grammar Check Please (1, Offtopic)

Bazar (778572) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763300)

Are the people vetting slashdot posts unable to fix the grammar from submited stories, or do they not care?
This post has multiple serious grammar issues.

Re:Grammar Check Please (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763820)

Fucking moron.

Re:Grammar Check Please (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763890)

Ewe muss bee knew hear...

Re:Grammar Check Please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30764098)

why should we care

Translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763310)

Do what we tell you to do and you can stay.

Does Google even have a choice any longer? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763312)

At this point, does Google even have a real choice in the matter? If they don't out and out leave China very soon, then they will forever be perceived as weak. The Chinese will consider them to be feeble pushovers. Not only that, but in the Western world they'll also be seen as weak, for caving in on the issue of censorship.

Hypocrits (4, Insightful)

thijsh (910751) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763318)

China to Google: "Listen to us and obey our laws, even though they do not apply to us and we will abuse this power against your company and your users."

Even worse is that Google probably fears their technology will fall in the hands of the Chinese who will just build an alternative google *exacly* as they like it, and not like before with 'cooperation' from google. This way China wins and Google is left without a market in China at all, leaving with a damaged reputation for 'helping' the Chinese oppression and gaining nothing in the end... Pulling out is the wise thing to do, but not on their own. They have only said 'until here and no further', if Google moves out of China it will be because China makes them, and then Google is the hero of the story and China will be the party losing face.

Re:Hypocrits (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763406)

It's interesting that most companies do not follow that train of logic, especially when it comes to IP. The same companies that would love to whack you with wet blankets when you dare to copy one of their products appearantly have no problem with the most rampart commercial copying companies having access to their source code.

How they have access to it? They developed it. When you have your code produced in China, you're basically handing them a master copy to resell it to your competitor.

Re:Hypocrits (1)

thijsh (910751) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763524)

I highly doubt any core Google IP is developed in China... They are very protective of their software (algorithms).

Re:Hypocrits (1)

fajoli (181454) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763498)

Even worse is that Google probably fears their technology will fall in the hands of the Chinese who will just build an alternative google *exacly* as they like it, and not like before with 'cooperation' from google.

The Google brand is worth something to both Google and its users. I think any Google-like operation "in the hands fo the Chinese" would struggle to build that kind of trust with its users. How comfortable would people be sending private emails to someone@china-run-google-clone.cn or watching videos on china-is-watching-you-youtube.cn?

OK, how is China different from the US exactly? (1)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763562)

Is it because we can vote that we think we are safe from an abusive government?

Just reading the story below points out how the US likes to codify its abuses of our rights and somehow it is all OK because our elections are "open", granted calling only being able to select from two parties as being open. I guess that is twice as good as China.

Re:OK, how is China different from the US exactly? (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763862)

It definite IS better than China.

China's just not the benchmark people should use for "grading" Governments.

US voters can certainly select more than two parties. In fact if all the voters who were eligible but didn't vote, actually voted for the same one party, that party would have won.

Yes the first past the post system sucks, but naturally the Two Parties aren't going to change that- why should they? Between the two of them, they got >97% of all the votes in the past two elections.

Re:OK, how is China different from the US exactly? (0)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763888)

Safe no Protected Yes...

There is a difference... I agree the two party system isn't ideal and I will be very happy the day that 3rd parties can get enough to kick out the Democrats who stand for Metro Areas where the people are dependent on government for their survival, and suffer problems such as over population, and the huge differences in quality of life between the Rich and the Poor. Vs. Republicans who stand for Rural areas where people are self proficient and their taxes goes to services they barley ever see, and their community is based around religion and faith. As well in these areas gap between quality of life between the rich and poor is much less, and for the most part the reason people are rich or poor is because they deserved it.

But this does allow the people in the suburbs to do something about it. And if they see a party is too abusive they will vote them out... Just as in the last election The republican party has lost its way and was being too corrupt for its own good so they voted them out and now they are suffering and they are trying to remake themselves determining if they should be more true on core values or be more moderate. However now that the democrats are in power a lot of people are seeing abuse on their end so the next set of elections my turn the tide giving republicans a bit more power to keep them in check.

Goose meet gander (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763672)

>when asked if those laws apply to the government as well it was quickly avoided.

Are you freaking kidding me?
That is EXACTLY what every government does, ESPECIALLY the US.

But since its someone else who does it, ohhh, theyre baaaaad.

Govts have always played the game 'do as i say, not as I do'.
To make it seem like the chinese are doing something exceptional makes you a .... hypocrite.

You cant be that daft not to know that some people are terrorists while others who do the same are freedom fighters. Its the same actions but we frame it differently when we support terrorism.
Same things for war crimes and international laws: we force others to respect them when we need a stick to beat them with yet when we bomb, invade, kill, kidnap presidents, overthrow govts, poison people and lands, we dont follow the rules. Hell, we event went to countries getting them to sign a waiver so our criminals with guns in other countries cant be prosecuted.

If youre going to use the word hypocrite please look into the mirror first.

Having worked in China for a few years, I know that they dont take kindly to being publicly humiliated and saving face and honour still has importance there.
Besides, we've sold guns and weapons and still do to some of the filthiest govts in the world, some which still practice racial purity and apartheid, we have no morals in this country in this matter. Let's now act like we have a moral compass. If we do, its pretty selective and only is used when it suits us.

Yes we have laws! (3, Insightful)

Drethon (1445051) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763326)

And you will stop trying to apply them to us because we wrote them!

the expected response (1)

castironpigeon (1056188) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763330)

I don't think anyone could have realistically expected China to respond differently.

Re:the expected response (1)

nyctopterus (717502) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763466)

Indeed. There is no way the Chinese government would let google go uncensored. However, this might be a boost for those in the government pushing for China to be more open.

unhacked != uncensored (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763744)

Google is perfectly happy censoring for China and other countries.
It is unhappy when its computers get hacked by the Chinese government.
How can anyone do business when the government of a dictatorship is actively sabotaging them?

wanted: proofreaders (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763334)

FTFS:

China also stated that they strict cyber laws and that the it forbids any kind of "hacking attack";

I'm sorry CmdrTaco, but if you want us to spend more time on your site than you spend on proofreading, lowering the bar is not the best way.

China's Capability to Conduct Cyber Warfare (4, Informative)

AftanGustur (7715) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763352)

China is probaby way more advanced in conducting Cyber Warfare than most people realise.

Reading the link below, you will realise that china state hackers

1) have dedicated datacenters for them

2) Work around the clock in 3 shifts during each 24 hours

3) Have specialised teams for things like a) Break in b) Data stealing c) Footprinting

Capability of the People’s Republic of China to Conduct Cyber Warfare and Computer Network Exploitation [uscc.gov]

Re:China's Capability to Conduct Cyber Warfare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763392)

"China is probaby way more advanced in conducting Cyber Warfare than most people realise. "

Not really. It's just that every time someone says something negative about China a bunch of bleeding hearts (and or Chinese agents) post about how racist and evil it is to say things like this and remind us how it's really the United States who is evil.

Re:China's Capability to Conduct Cyber Warfare (1)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763490)

Anyone who has ever looked at a weblog knows this.

Re:China's Capability to Conduct Cyber Warfare (1)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763694)

Do you honestly think that the US doesn't also have the same? Do you seriously think the US hasn't invested a substantial amount of resources into a similar effort? And several other nations as well... I think the point is this - most major nations that view intelligence and counter-intelligence as being important and worth spending resources on are probably more advanced in their cyberwarfare capabilities than most people realize.

What laws? (0)

vvaduva (859950) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763358)

This is such bull...everyone, on all sides pretending that red commies care about law?! WTF?

Laws (0)

Adrian Lopez (2615) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763362)

... all companies are welcome to operate in China but that they must do so under local laws ...

That, of course, is true in any country in which a company operates. If censoring content is part of the rules that Google must follow in order to operate in China, they'll either have to back down from their new anti-censorship stance, pull out of China as threatened, or break the law. I expect it will be one of the first two.

Local laws? What about their constitution? (4, Interesting)

mrjb (547783) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763380)

The Chinese constitution has allowed free speech since 1982 (not that that mattered much 2 years afterwards). That is, censorship is officially *against* the Chinese constitution. I'd actually like to see this go to court; if it's a fair trial, the Chinese probably will end up being better off because of it.

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (1)

someones1 (1580023) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763452)

Ahahahaha!! Don't know much about China, do ya?

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763502)

Ahahahaha!!

Don't know much about China, do ya?

Likewise, I'd say.

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (1)

someones1 (1580023) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763656)

Likewise, I'd say.

Lived in China for years, thanks. See post below.

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763704)

PENIS

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (1)

Lomegor (1643845) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763536)

Source?

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763898)

Source?

The source is censored by the Great Firewall.

Re:Local laws? What about their constitution? (4, Funny)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763760)

You are perfectly free to say whatever you want in China. You just might not be very free after you say it.

You *do* know what 'totalitarianism' is? (1)

Hasai (131313) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764132)

.... I'd actually like to see this go to court; if it's a fair trial, the Chinese probably will end up being better off because of it.

.... Your real name wouldn't happen to be Anne Frank, would it?

I suggest you go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism [wikipedia.org] . Pay attention to the first two paragraphs.

Asian actually do catch flies with chopsticks (0, Offtopic)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763416)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1gAHil89Z4 [youtube.com] Hmmmm... Asian actually do catch flies with chopsticks.

Translation (5, Insightful)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763428)

The rest of the world must follow our rules. But we could not.

steep price (2, Insightful)

BBird (664014) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763450)

we will all pay a steep price for our hypocrisy contempt and cowardice towards China human rights abuse, censorship, lies and manipulation

Hmmmmm, so it was not the USA? (0)

superflit (1193931) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763482)

I am admired that this was done be the China....
I am shocked that "all evil" and privacy violations did not come from USA. ....

So the USA is not always the evil? The "commie and social" can be as evil?

What about trade laws? (1)

Toze (1668155) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763576)

China's famous for being a place that will rip off small and medium sized businesses by buying a few units in a preliminary order, then reverse-engineering it and selling it locally for cheap. Which makes perfect sense; the Americans did that to the UK/Europe, and it's how they industrialized so fast. I don't really have a problem, morally, with them ignoring international trade law like that, though I'm kind of a radical when it comes to IP anyway.

But if China's going to go around breaking other nations' laws, whining about it happening to them just makes them look stupid, opportunistic, and greedy (which, again, worked out for the Americans /rimshot). If they want people to take their laws seriously, they'll have to do what the States did, and actually start getting along with the other nations with mutual agreements and enforcement. I don't think they will.

Re:What about trade laws? (2, Insightful)

khallow (566160) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763608)

But if China's going to go around breaking other nations' laws, whining about it happening to them just makes them look stupid, opportunistic, and greedy (which, again, worked out for the Americans /rimshot). If they want people to take their laws seriously, they'll have to do what the States did, and actually start getting along with the other nations with mutual agreements and enforcement. I don't think they will.

No, they'll just wait till they're losing more to lack of IP enforcement than they gain, then they'll start complaining.

rocar raws? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763582)

rocar raws? WTF?

After living in China for awhile... (2, Interesting)

someones1 (1580023) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763584)

As an American who has lived in China on-and-off several times for years, I have to say that you can't expect anything that the government does/says to be even nearly logical or otherwise make sense.

My other expat friends and I used to joke that China was the source of all anti-logic in the world -- that is, the closer that you get to China, the less things make sense. If you've ever visited, then you'll understand.

fuck a= Gnaa (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763600)

declined in market battled in court, the hard drive to asshole to others ALL KNOW WE WANT. collect any spilled sh0wer Don't just towel under the LEARN WHAT MISTAKES transfer, Netscape Gave the BSD the facts and AND THE STRIKING with process and disgust, or been name on the jar of (I always bring my previously thought and sold in the Endless conflict we don't sux0r as Whether you all along. *BSD BSDI is also dead, Right now. I tried, the resignation Antibacterial soap.

Rigged Game? (5, Interesting)

Software Geek (1097883) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763618)

My employer does a lot of business in China, both development work and sales into the chinese market.
This incident with google has really made me stop and think about whether the whole game is rigged.

Invest in China? Your technology will stolen by chinese competitors.
Outcompete your chinese competitors? The local laws will be changed in their favor.
Complain? Your people will be arrested.
Leave? Your assets will be nationalized.

The chinese haven't done any of that stuff to my employer, as far as I know. But it is the only country we do business in where the question might even come up.
It turns out that doing business in a country without the rule of law entails some serious business risks.
I wonder how many executives are having this same thought, right now?

Just posturing (0)

Yaa 101 (664725) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763622)

I think that Google is just posturing to try and get itself some negotiation room.
We all know that none whatsoever company that has the size of Google will choose to not participate in such a large market.

That Google would pull no evil is just marketing bullshit, they will betray everybody even for minimal amounts of money whenever they can, because this is what is it's function to do.

Fly on the wall -i'll pass (4, Interesting)

furby076 (1461805) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763636)

I sure would love to be a fly on the wall of these discussions. We certainly live in interesting times.

No you wouldn't. It's not that lively - on the contrary it is quite boring, full of ritual and face saving. If you ever have a case of insomnia attend one of these meetings - it will be clearly taken care of.

Now if you want a bit of excitement, political meetings that have some energy, then go to UK parliment meetings - especially when the prime minister is around. I remember watching video's of former PM Blair and boy was exciting. The guy was in the center of the room, turning around and launching off complex answers to complex questions. Any political group where you can get a bunch of old boys to start a fist fight will be exciting...and you will not see that in a Chinese gov't meeting.

Why does China bother? (1)

mschirmer (1619591) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763644)

I don't get why China insists on filtering search results at the search engine level. Would it not be easier to enforce ISP level DPI filtering and block the pages accordingly?

Technically it's easier to get Google to do the censorship work, but in the end, Google and just up and leave if they want, whereas employing DPI @ ISP level means it doesn't matter what search engine the end-user uses, it's still going to be filtered, and you can always threaten a local Chinese ISP with much more than you can threaten an international spotlight company like Google.

I'm not saying they should do this, but I don't see why they are chasing this one, other than to make a political statement to the world.

republicans tag? (1)

locallyunscene (1000523) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763660)

Is that a joke about "The People's Republic of China" moniker. Or is there some more obvious aspect I'm missing?

Re:republicans tag? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#30763916)

Or is there some more obvious aspect I'm missing?

Ancient Vulcan proverb: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Privileged access (1)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763754)

What relationship have censorship with trying to attack Google or some activists accounts? They don't want to leave China, but specifically ends censorship, and that related not just with trying to hack accounts, but specifically get IP from google (private sources stolen?).

Could be related on how that censorship is implemented? If China govrnment had privileged access to Google network or some machines inside to implement that censorship, and those machines "misbehaved" (maybe not point a direct finger to how and when, but at least to say that odds were pretty high), that could have triggered that, hacking or not of activists accounts. Maybe they could trade to do a "dumber" way of filtering, a compromise between filtering something at least, and don't letting chance to China to infiltrate their network.

Avoiding questions. (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#30763792)

when asked if those laws apply to the government as well it was quickly avoided

Sometimes, avoiding a question provides are all the answer you need.

That's exactly Google's problem.. (1)

cheros (223479) | more than 4 years ago | (#30764100)

.. compliance with local laws where it interferes with making money.

Just ask Japan or Switzerland..

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