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Eight PHP IDEs Compared

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the colonic-extraction dept.

PHP 206

snydeq writes "InfoWorld's Rick Grehen provides an in-depth comparative review of eight PHP IDEs: ActiveState's Komodo IDE, CodeLobster PHP Edition, Eclipse PHP Development Tools (PDT), MPSoftware's phpDesigner, NetBeans IDE for PHP, NuSphere's PhpED, WaterProof's PHPEdit, and Zend Studio. 'All of these PHP toolkits offer strong support for the other languages and environments (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, SQL database) that a PHP developer encounters. The key differences we discovered were in the tools they provide (HTML inspector, SQL management system) for various tasks, the quality of their documentation, and general ease-of-use,' Grehen writes.'"

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Do any of them assess performance? (4, Interesting)

jeffmeden (135043) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010350)

This is not a troll, I swear! Are there any good performance assessment tools used during development? If so, do they work well with any of these IDEs? I don't do a lot of PHP work but it would be nice to have a tool that could audit code, advise on which lines were the most resource-intensive, and recommend lighter weight procedures.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1, Offtopic)

tarius8105 (683929) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010802)

I personally use Netbeans. I dont like eclipse too much, I think its a little more bloated for my needs, but others swear by it. Netbeans just has a lot of the features out of the box where as eclipse you have to download everything and install it but on the other hand eclipse can have more features and plugins than Netbeans. It boils down to what you need. The only concern I have with Netbeans, prior to 6.8, was that after long periods of time running I would notice it was leaking memory and started to slow down.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

tarius8105 (683929) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010832)

I think I went off on something else instead of addressing the point, but if I remember there are profilers out there both eclipse and netbeans to show where the script is spending most of its time. I think with Netbeans it uses the PHP debugger but there is also another that you can build right into PHP.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011152)

Care to give any examples?!?

Reading both of your posts made me dumber.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (2, Informative)

IpSo_ (21711) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011098)

Have you tried using PHP's Xdebug extension with CacheGrind (I prefer KCacheGrind for KDE), it works wonders.

I haven't found any IDE's that integrate such functionality, but I don't really see a need for it as KCacheGrind works so well as it is.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011168)

For web apps (PHP), the most resource-intensive lines are those that hit the database. How fast they are depends on what's in the database.

What you ask is not possible for an IDE to do.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011250)

Actually that might include the database queries and such too, as he specifically said what lines are most resource-intensive and such. Xdebug is the answer here and I think most IDE's support it, either directly or via hack-it-in. Now it doesn't provide lighter weight hints (that's your job as a programmer), but it shows you a lot of information about the bottlenecks.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

kv9 (697238) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011302)

Most of these IDEs integrate with some sort of debugger AFAIK. I have tried them all but none can beat the simplicity of EditPlus (on Windows at least).

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011474)

I do most of my work in PHP and to be honest, I very rarely have to worry about the performance of PHP code itself. Most of the performance bottlenecks at the database, especially when some developers choose to pull back 100,000 rows in order to show you 20 of them. I'm not sure how an IDE could detect this type of abuse when analyzing code for performance.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011546)

But... but... optimizing performance in PHP, is like optimizing performance on a tricycle with four-wheel drive and square wheels. ^^
The best optimization for PHP: Move to a real language! ;)

(Ex 5-year professional PHP developer here, who actually managed to write properly designed software in it, and therefore knows extremely well what PHP is and can’t do.)

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011640)

What's a "real language" compared to PHP?

JSP, ASP, Python, Perl?

And by 'real language' do you something that's pre-compiled? Something with variable declarations (not loosly typed), etc?

I'm curious to learn. I'm a PHP web developer.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011804)

asp is a turd. VB(script) is one of the few languages that makes PHP look good. JScript is what PHP wishes it could be, but asp treats it as a second class citizen. asp.net is decent.

Re:Do any of them assess performance? (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011738)

You probably didn't work with large enough projects then. You do know optimization is a bit more than making a script that tests whether print() or echo() works faster?

First of all you need to know what are the bottlenecks on the script, and this includes SQL queries and working with data or files, or remote connections. You work to optimize those queries first. If you still need to go further, you start putting some data in memcache so you don't need to always run the same queries. Knowing what queries are the bottlenecks is how you can improve your database structure too. Are writing operations taking too long? Maybe you should have a master sql server for writing and slaves for reading data. Are you fetching data over the internet or doing some heavy queries that is causing the page for the user to load slowly - maybe it's time to fork the work to separate process and let the page load faster for the user.

All this comes really relevant when running actually large sites, and this is where the professional IDE's shine.

VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (3, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010368)

How is it that when given a set of options, the majority of users will select the worst possible one?

They didn't review Notepad, but I would wager that it is pretty well used by a majority of PHP "developers"

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010486)

Because consumers aren't always given an equal choice.

Look at the HD wars, Bluray won, not because it was the better format for the consumer per-se, but because it gained a large lead by being included in the PS3, and ultimately because the studios all decided to back it as it had stronger DRM.

HD-DVD kit was cheaper, region free, and had less troublesome DRM as well as dual DVD/HD-DVD discs actually on the market, I suspect all things being equal these factors alone would've made it the consumer choice otherwise.

I don't really know the VHS war well enough, in fact, I can't even really remember what was going on when x86 and Windows really started to gain traction, but I suspect it wasn't simply down to consumer choice. As such, I don't think users select the worst choice, I think they're just somewhat forced into it- good luck getting HD-DVD now for example, the format is gone before HD media has still even really gone mainstream hence the "majority of users" don't even get a choice, many probably wont even realise there ever was a choice.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31010566)

Bluray didn't win.

I won, because I stopped buying DVDs, and now pirate 100% of my films.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31010972)

Cool, so you feel entitled to have something for free, not respecting licenses or copyright. That's the open source community for you. Er... sorry, except for GPL of course!!!!

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (1)

mfnickster (182520) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011350)

> Cool, so you feel entitled to have something for free, not respecting licenses or copyright.

Oh, put a cork in it.

The studios have ripped us off for years by collusion (price fixing) and by getting a cut of every blank CD/DVD sold, so don't act like they aren't trying to get something for free also.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (1)

mR.bRiGhTsId3 (1196765) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011482)

Pirating is the wrong answer. If you feel so strongly you go without. By pirating the lack of any meaningful moral conviction shows through.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011722)

You can justify it any way you want, but in the end it all comes down to the fact that you "want" the movies more than your wish to "follow your ideals", so you turn to piracy. But no hard feelings, you are just like pretty much everyone else. E.g. "someone did something to me, then I'm allowed to do something back".

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (0)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010686)

Bad troll is bad. No one who *professionally* works with PHP and in other web development uses freaking Notepad.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (2, Insightful)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011108)

Hehe, I didn't notice that line for some reason when I made my reply, but to be fair he didn't use the term professionally so he's probably right- most PHP developers are far from professional after all ;)

Developing large scale web applications where you need more than just a bunch of php files and need a decent folder structure ala most MVC frameworks becomes a pain without a proper IDE as you note.

you dont need to quote developers. (4, Informative)

unity100 (970058) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010910)

as if php is not something worth developing on or those who develop on it cannot be called real developers.

i am working in the industry since 2003 as a php developer and i use notepad++. it works very well too.

Re:you dont need to quote developers. (1)

duguk (589689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011112)

as if php is not something worth developing on or those who develop on it cannot be called real developers.

i am working in the industry since 2003 as a php developer and i use notepad++. it works very well too.

I have to agree with this. Notepad++ is feature rich, especially for PHP users, especially with the many many plugins. Just having syntax highlighting and completion is enough. Most of these IDE's are overkill.

Re:you dont need to quote developers. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31012244)

What annoyed me about Notepad++ was that it crashed often. Maybe I was abusing it by having upto 15 files open at a time but I noticed it would mostly crash when I switched to another program (browser, usually, since I was testing what I had just coded/fixed) and switched back. No ALT+TAB required. It was as simple as switching focus to the browser window on a separate monitor. I can say that while it worked, it was great and had almost every feature I needed. It was a great free program.
The crashing also had one undesired consequence, though. When I would open it again, it would restore a random state. I never knew which files would be opened back up. It could be a session from 3 days ago or it could be my last session.
All in all, I have to say the best IDE I've used to date was Zend Studio 5. I hated Zend Studio 7.

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (1)

toastar (573882) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011574)

So they have Eclipse but Not Dreamweaver?

Re:VHS, x86, Microsoft Windows (2, Informative)

classified (154433) | more than 4 years ago | (#31012132)

Yea, I thought it was weird that a review of PHP IDEs omitted Dreamweaver; I have tried at least 4 of the IDEs they list, and used Coda on Mac until I got Dreamweaver. My preference is still Homesite (the old Allaire product that morphed into DW after macromedia bought it). But, homesite only runs on windows, so on a mac IMO Dreamweaver CS4 works better than all of them and allows me to do a lot of pretty fast validation and integrity checking. /mike

Left out my favorite (1)

anss123 (985305) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010372)

DevPHP is AFAIK open source and works pretty well for me.

Re:Left out my favorite (4, Insightful)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010784)

Yeah, they also gave Zend 9/10 for tools and 10/10 for Value when it's basically just Eclipse PDT with a toolbar button for the command line tool that comes free with the Zend framework and costs $399 per year for the privilege.

Well, I suppose it can do more if you pay an extra $1195 per year for Zend server. Did I mention that Zend server is basically little more than just a pre-configured Apache setup?

Perhaps I've been spoilt by Visual Studio which actually costs much less and gives you far more, or the fact that 99.99% of Zend Studio's functionality is just inherited from Eclipse which is free, but the idea of giving Zend Studio 10/10 for value is er, baffling to say the least- at least their 9/10 for tools can be somewhat justified by the fact most of them are just inherited from the free tools Eclipse provides.

I suppose at least they still gave positive reviews of the other IDEs, but the idea that Zend Studio is somehow better than them, well, I'm not really sure there's a word for how simply not true that is.

So er yeah, still, most the article is probably one of the finest loads of bollocks I've ever seen which is quite impressive, sseing as I've often made the mistake of reading The Register which is basically like a bollocks farm.

Re:Left out my favorite (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010970)

I'm still trying to figure out the 'value' column and what it could possibly mean. It's not the average, since that's to the right already. It's not the mmph per dollar, since that would infinity for some of them... It's not even a personal opinion, considering that Eclipse/PDT and Zend got exactly the same value, even though 1 is free and the other is not.

I've been forced to come to the conclusion that it means 'we were paid to make this come out better.'

yep (3, Interesting)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010398)

Two of the top choices are free and open. I don't know how people who build proprietary tools are going to stay in business. It's not like the commercial stuff crushed the open stuff in this comparison. I've moved to Netbeans for pretty much everything. It's a solid, multiplatform solution and the open nature is very nice. Komodo is built on an open editor, but moving up to the full featured IDE is pretty pricey. At $399 a pop I've never tried Zend Studio and based on this - I don't think I'm missing much.

Re:yep (3, Informative)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011086)

Personally I wasn't really happy with Eclipse or other open source solutions. The GUI plain and simply sucks, isn't that good to customize and provides too less information and actions. People say its a powerful tool once you learn to use it, but why should I spend time on that when there are better alternatives (and which provide more features)?

Personally I've tried pretty much all of the IDE's mentioned in this article and finally went and bought WaterProof's PHPEdit. In my opinion, it's the most comprehensive PHP IDE there is.
- Debugging options are *great* (like comparing vi to Visual Studio)
- GUI shows lots of information, but doesn't bloat it - panels roll in and out when they're needed (if wanted)
- GUI is totally customizable, there's scripting language to do it too. One of the first options I did was change ctrl+s to save local version, save cvs version and publish testing machine version, but not publish on live site, all on press of ctrl+s. On toolbar I added a separate button to publish the new version on live site.
- Another point about the great debugging options that the article mentions too, you can simultaneously debug PHP and Javascript. This is something you really miss in other IDE's once you've tried it.
- PHP files usually have mixed PHP, HTML, JavaScript and SQL. Once you move your cursor over a single block, it highlights and colors with the correct language and makes the other languages a little bit more transparent - you can easily see for example all blocks of JavaScript or SQL code.
- Preview lets you view what your site looks on all IE, Firefox, Safari and Opera
- Too many other features to list which I think should be in all IDE's, but are not :) And haven't even got around to learning all things yet.

Now that being said, it is probably too heavy for a PHP coder that isn't coding professionally. Many amateur C++ programmers go just with Dev-C++ too, but professionals and those coding for living almost always appreciate the powerful suite that Visual Studio is. Proprietary tools stay in business because of this - they're much more polished and complete than their open source alternatives. And if you're working on it professionally, paying for the good tools doesn't really matter that much if it saves you time and from headache.

Re:yep (1)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011206)

If I'm going to use an IDE for web development, I only have one question: Can it work over ssh? My test server is sitting in a rack somewhere else, never mind the production server.

Re:yep (1)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011690)

At least the price isn't too crazy. But you are right, I'd need to be doing full time professional work to move away from Netbeans.

And even then I still might not do it, as Netbeans supports so many languages and platforms. If I were working all the time in one language I could see an IDE focused on that language. But the reality is that day to day I'm dealing with a multitude of languages and platforms.

what i'd like in an IDE (1)

i.r.id10t (595143) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010470)

What I would like for an IDE is something similar to VB, where you can actually run the PHP, set break points, watch variable values, etc.

Since that doesn't exist as far as I know, I guess I will keep running a local instance of apache, php, mysql, etc. and throwing in lots of extra print("\n\n") statements

Re:what i'd like in an IDE (3, Informative)

PsychoPingu (1178147) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010742)

Eclipse can do it with PHP and XDebug if its running on Apache: http://robsnotebook.com/php_debugger_pdt_xdebug [robsnotebook.com]

Re:what i'd like in an IDE (1)

dafdaf (319484) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011008)

Eclipse also works with the Zend Debugger ! - And it works both local and remotely.

huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31010744)

Komodo has been doing that for years and I'm sure the others do too. You need to read up on xdebug. You're talking about line-by-line debugging. I'm almost wondering whether this is post bait...

look up "xdebug remote debugging" in google

Re:what i'd like in an IDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31010804)

Try using Eclipse PDT along with Xdebug, it gives you all the debugging features you mention and more.

Re:what i'd like in an IDE (1)

dafdaf (319484) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010988)

Eclipse (PDT), Zend IDE and Netbeans can debug local and remotely. We're just evaluating our future PHP-IDE, so the article comes in handy. The only thing missing: It seems that the Zend IDE is the only solution providing an easy to use profiling tool for PHP.

Eclipse PDT? (4, Informative)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010480)

Eclipse PHP Development Tools 2.1.2 received an overall score of 8.8. I'm not sure why. I have tried this on several occasions and I find the interface confusing, the software itself bloated and slow, and the internal plugin manager is always broken and can't download dependencies correctly - if at all.

Sure, there are posts all over the place that are supposed to help fix these issues: Download X from Y, and A from B, and then modify this configuration, and, and, and... ...and I shouldn't have to. It should 'just work'. I spent half a day trying to get the SFTP plugin installed and working and I gave up. I don't have time for that.

My personal favorite, as far as 'large' IDEs go, is Zend Studio - the last version before they moved over onto the Eclipse Framework.

Re:Eclipse PDT? (1)

tarius8105 (683929) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010922)

The old Zend Studio was great for debugging, but it suffered from the closed platform that you were locked into the feature sets provided. They moved over to eclipse to leverage the framework without having to do as much work for the IDE, the issue was they were suffering from lack of plugins that people wanted.

Re:Zend Studio (1)

Phrogman (80473) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011002)

I gotta agree ZS was great. I have tried the Eclipse Framework version and hate it. I still have my ZS installed but had to switch to Netbeans, as a result of upgrading to Leopard on my iMac (After the upgrade, I no longer see highlighted text and thats a pain when coding. The moment I select it, its white on white). Until i figure a way to fix that, I am using Netbeans, which is okay but not as nice overall. ZendStudio really was worth the money I paid for it, too bad they don't update it.

Same here. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011094)

I have had the same experience with eclipse. Komodo Edit - the free version - I found to hang for several seconds while typing on my Linux box (f12, P4, 512M RAM) I'm assuming that the free edit version uses the same editor code base as the commercial IDE - I don't see why it wouldn't.

So far on Linux, my favorite is Netbeans. Actually, Netbeans is my favorite IDE for everything - it's a great C++ IDE too! The trouble with Netbeans, though, if you're doing Qt development, it doesn't have the integration that eclipse has with the Qt build environment. So, if you're doing C++/Qt, eclipse is a bit better.

Re:Eclipse PDT? (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011116)

I agree with you, Eclipse is too much work. I want to work with my PHP code, not the IDE. Personally I use Waterproof's PHPEdit and love it.

Re:Eclipse PDT? (2, Interesting)

ionix5891 (1228718) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011182)

same here im still on Zend 5.5

new Zend based on Eclipse and Eclipse PDT and Netbeans are just to "slow" and i have a nice workstation

Re:Eclipse PDT? (1)

elfprince13 (1521333) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011224)

Eclipse in general is a pain in the ass. I've never used Komodo IDE because I have no interest in BUYING an IDE for hobby development, but Komodo Edit is a joy to use, so I would think that Komodo IDE can only be better.

PHP is cross-platform (0, Flamebait)

bcmm (768152) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010500)

PHP is cross-platform. Who the hell develops on Windows on purpose?

Re:PHP is cross-platform (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010590)

I use Windows for other work and gaming at the same time as I develop PHP, and my favorite IDE (WaterProof's PHPEdit) isn't available for Linux. Why wouldn't I use Windows? That being said the files are always saved both locally and remotely at the same time, and run on Linux servers.

Re:PHP is cross-platform (3, Funny)

jeffmeden (135043) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010758)

Gaming while you develop php? Wow either you are a God among men, or your games are full of chat like printf("fsck off you noob"); and your PHP code is full of wwwwwwwwaawwdadsdwwwwwwdadadwwwww...

do tell!

Re:PHP is cross-platform (1)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011172)

That was a bit badly worded sentence, but I mean everything else I use is on Windows too. And since Windows has great IDE's, why would I dual-boot.

But on a related note, sometimes I have actually taken a quick round of plants vs zombies or similar quick game while waiting for large database queries to run.

Re:PHP is cross-platform (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | more than 4 years ago | (#31012142)

Gaming while you develop php?

I hope he is working on an IDE where you write PHP by throwing cowdung at the screen with your Wiimote. I have proposed this numerous times. It just seems so apt. (The duificult is that the SQl development probably relies on a level where you are wresting with aligators).Stomping on bugs would be good using the Wii balance board!

Re:PHP is cross-platform (1)

anss123 (985305) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010660)

PHP is cross-platform. Who the hell develops on Windows on purpose?

Raises hand

Re:PHP is cross-platform (0, Flamebait)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011014)

People who don't want to recompile their kernel, and edit their x config with a command just to get their video card to work mostly.

Re:PHP is cross-platform (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011068)

You're probably trying to be funny, but you might get modded troll for that.

Coda (2, Interesting)

acomj (20611) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010502)

I use panic software's CODA for my php development (OSX). Its not really as full featured as these (no debugger), but for the fairly basic php web sites I code, it works great. I like that you can click a tab and snap into the page your creating in a functional browser. I use YourSQL for MYSQL database management, which still works but is no longer being developed.

Re:Coda (2, Interesting)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010646)

You might want to look at MySQL Workbench [mysql.com]. I've been messing with it a bit for a couple weeks and really like it so far. I'm running it on Fedora but there is an OSX release.

Re:Coda (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011564)

You also might want to check out Sequel Pro [sequelpro.com] (successor to CocoaMySQL). Also, I like Aptana [aptana.com], its Eclipse but easier to use.

Re:Coda (1)

lunatic77 (988921) | more than 4 years ago | (#31012204)

MySQL Workbench is possibly the most unstable software I've ever used on a Mac.

IMHO the only two tools you'd want to use on a Mac for MySQL are
1. Navicat (ugly/annoying UI but great admin tools)
2. Querious (great UI but light on the admin tools)

Nonetheless, I'm a big fan of Coda for PHP development, even though there's no debugger. It's got a top-notch UI, great site configuration management tools, SFTP, FTPS/TLS, Subversion integration, solid syntax highlighting, and resource books built-in if you need them. Highly recommended!

Re:Coda (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31010738)

Also check out Sequel Pro (http://www.sequelpro.com) for MySQL database management - they've taken the venerable CocoaMySQL and are really running with it, pretty awesome app and free!

Re:Coda (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31012218)

I also use coda, mainly for html/css but also some javascript, php, and perl. I paid mega bucks for CS3 everything but haven't used Dreamweaver since I discovered coda. Ok, that's not strictly true as I use dreamweaver at work, but adobe's macintosh shit is an abomination.

Performances anyone? (1)

Rhaban (987410) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010624)

I usually use eclipse PDT on windows, but it doesn't scale well with really big projects (anything base on ez publish [ez.no], a CMS often used in the company I work for): the code completion system becomes a nightmare, as everytime I begin typing a function name it freezes several seconds as if parsing every file on the hard drive to find if it already exists somewhere.
I tried netbeans, and the problem is the same. I end up with and IDE where the only features I use are syntax coloring, functions folding, and file structure outline.

On smaller projets it's very useful to jump to the defincition of a class/function just by hitting F3 while the cursor is on the function name, regardless of what file it is declared in. I really miss it on big projects, where it could be even more useful.

I'm pretty over IDEs (3, Insightful)

TofuMatt (1105351) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010842)

Aside from using XCode, I pretty much never use IDEs, especially for web development. I just use TextMate [macromates.com] for anything not in XCode (and I even edit a lot of C/C++/Obj-C in XCode nowadays, and other apps for performance, testing, etc. (or write TextMate commands to run external commands).

Well, yeah... Re:I'm pretty over IDEs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011198)

...but there are people who actually code applications in object oriented PHP... with trillions of public/private classes, interfaces 'n' shit.

So yeah, textmate is nice if you need to code a contact form or two.

Re:I'm pretty over IDEs (1)

Jake Griffin (1153451) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011326)

http://developer.apple.com/technology/xcode.html - "Xcode is a free download and includes the Xcode IDE..."

So, what you're saying is that aside from using an IDE, you pretty much never use IDEs? Just because XCode is from the same company you got your OS from doesn't mean it's not an IDE. BTW, I use XCode almost exclusively as well, so don't think I'm knocking the application, just saying that it most definitely is an IDE.

vim/EMACS? (2, Informative)

Canar (46407) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010908)

I know this is PHP, so it might be expecting too much, but what ever happened to using vi?

I'm a semi-pro (all told I've probably made nearly $100k) web developer and I've never felt the need for all these fancy IDEs. I've tried them before and they just slow me down.

Re:vim/EMACS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011092)


The difference is in working on "here and there" projects by yourself, and large projects with many other developers or many other groups of developers.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

LS1 Brains (1054672) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011096)

I hear ya. I have partially succeeded over the years in getting myself to use a more point-and-click style editor, but I keep falling back to vim. Old habits die hard, and it often seems easier to just pull off a :%s/something/else/g than Ctrl+H, [something], tab, [else] tab, Alt+A, Enter, Escape.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011134)

Probably vi/vim thru ssh plus a web browser for testing/googling/docs and shell utilities has been my IDE for perl/php/bash for years (at least if it qualifies at IDE), and emacs would not be a bad alternative neither

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011200)

I know this is PHP, so it might be expecting too much, but what ever happened to using vi?

I think, vi does not have function name completion, code folding, integration with Zend Platform, debugger, profiler, phpdoc support, code analyzer, etc. Emacs does not have all features of Zend Studio. for me the only thing where emacs beats zend studio 5.5 is customizable white space highlighting.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

wmbetts (1306001) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011496)

I use vim as my IDE for damn near everything. I get syntax highlighting, code folding, profiler, and debugging. Not to be offensive, but it sounds like you don't know how to use vim or at the very least have little experience.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

Chad Birch (1222564) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011806)

Indeed. I used to try out all these PHP IDEs, I used UltraEdit for a long time, etc. Then one day (for some reason I don't recall), I decided I wanted to take the time and really learn how to use vim properly. Now I can't go back. All those other editors feel clunky, underpowered, and slow. vim has all the same capabilities if you take a little time to figure out how to use (or enable) them, and working in it is considerably faster and more efficient.

I've found that almost everyone that prefers an IDE over vim doesn't actually know how to use it.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011864)

I use vim as my IDE for damn near everything. I get syntax highlighting, code folding, profiler, and debugging.

You don't use Zend Studio. I use emacs and that's why I said "I think" when I talked about vim.

Yes, you can debug things with exit and var_dump. Yes, you can profile code with apd, if you add custom code unsuitable for production code and then decompile profiling dumps. With Zend Studio I can profile complex code which must be executed in specific environment with just one click. No custom code in tested program. I get graphs with load and execution times expandable down to files and functions.

Can you trace all unused global declarations in 500KB codebase? Zend Studio 5.5 can.

You can write PHP scripts with plain text editor. with IDE you can also maintain, debug and improve that code and write more complex code.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

wmbetts (1306001) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011994)

You do realize that there's nothing you can't do in vim you can do in any of these IDEs.

Re:vim/EMACS? (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31012128)

You do realize that there's nothing you can't do in vim you can do in any of these IDEs.

Maybe. Not sure about code analyzer (unused global declarations and undefined variables stuff). I can do other things in vim with help of some PHP extensions, but with Zend Studio I can do same thing faster. If I do it faster, I have time to do more.

IDE? (1)

Spyware23 (1260322) | more than 4 years ago | (#31010986)

What's wrong with using vim/notepad++, links, and perhaps a self-refreshing firefox tab open on a second monitor/desktop?

I have developed and worked on many (PHP powered) websites in my life, and never felt the need for some big IDE. Although I do have to admit I did this as an amateur, not as an employed web dev.

Also, people mocking Notepad++, you are probably not aware of it's (mostly plugin-based) features. It has plugins for ftp, svn and cvs, for example.

Like I said, never felt the need to use a big IDE, and I don't understand why others do.

Re:IDE? (1)

TheCycoONE (913189) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011192)

I typically use vim for my development, but I do on occasion use Eclipse when I run into problems. The static code analysis can be handy sometimes.

That said I only develop php as an amateur so perhaps if I did it day in and out every day I wouldn't have a use for code analysis. Professionally I program ColdFusion and use vim exclusively.

Re:IDE? (1)

DesertBlade (741219) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011270)

I was told years ago real web programmers use notepad. I am a hobbyist PHP guy, but been doing it alot at work for the company website, perhaps it is time to move away from gedit (they have a windows version) and onto something else,

Re:IDE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011912)

Notepad ++ if you want to split the distance. Get it on sourceforge - it has every language under the sun.

Re:IDE? (1)

hal2814 (725639) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011420)

Using vim and an IDE aren't mutually exclusive. Most decent IDEs give you the option of using whatever text editor you want. Debugging through the IDE and doing nitpicky formatting changes for clients is the major draw for me using an IDE. I get a lot more throughput that way. And more throughput leads to more money in my pocket.

Re:IDE? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011500)

Like I said, never felt the need to use a big IDE, and I don't understand why others do.

How do you debug your PHP code? With a series of "echo" statements?

Re:IDE? (1)

Spyware23 (1260322) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011612)

Print, actually. But, yeah, that's how I roll. I also use php-cli/php in a shell and tools like time and grep.

I Vote Eclipse (1)

twmcneil (942300) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011102)

My new projects are in Flex and/or php so I stay with Eclipse to save my sanity. I still have to use Delphi for maintenance work on older projects so having to keep 3 IDEs in my tiny little brain at once would be difficult for me. Even so, I'm hitting F2 in Delphi to save. Grrr.

Value (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011130)

The ratings are pretty silly. How can ZendStudio have a value of 10, while netbeans has 9? Netbeans is free/OSS, ZS is proprietary and $400 !!

Bluefish (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31011164)

For all my web development needs (incl html, css, javascript, java, php and mysql) under Linux there is Bluefish [openoffice.nl]!

Re:Bluefish (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31012118)

> For all my web development needs (incl html, css, javascript, java, php and mysql) under Linux there is Bluefish!

Yet another free tool only a programmer could love.

Nevertheless, I decided to give it a try on the Mac (requires Darwin Ports):

Error: The following dependencies failed to build: xorg-renderproto
Error: Unable to upgrade port: 1
Error: Unable to execute port: upgrade gtk2 failed

FAIL! Sorry, that's all the time I'm willing to spend wrestling with dependencies and compile options. I've got work to do.

Seriously, get into the 21st century, guys.

EditPlus (1)

Daley_G (1592515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011242)

For $30, EditPlus (for Windows, but runs great in wine) is awesome. Granted it doesn't do all the things that a full-fledged IDE does, but the fact that it's got a built-in FTP client makes my life easier when I maintain several different sites. It's lightweight, flexible and easy to use.

KWrite (1)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | more than 4 years ago | (#31011718)

I write PHP every day and I get by very well with KWrite. KDE let's me seamlessly edit remote files over FTP or SSH and KWrite is lightweight but offers a surprising amount of features. It has some pretty awesome syntax highlighting that changes its color coding between PHP blocks, Javascript, style sheets and HTML with remarkable accuracy.

I've used Zend Studio (pre-Eclipse) and Eclipse PDT. I like some of the features such as the way they assist with function parameters and the built in PHP documentation, but other features aren't so nice and cause way too much interference with what I type. Ultimately, it lacks the seamless integration of my KDE environment and is a pain for editing remote files so I always end up going back to KWrite.

No Adobe? (1)

elecmahm (1194167) | more than 4 years ago | (#31012094)

I know that Dreamweaver wouldn't be a "traditional" IDE -- but PHP isn't a traditional language either. Dreamweaver can do PHP, JavaScript, HTML / CSS, etc. -- does color coding, code suggestions / "intellisense", and is project-oriented. I enjoy using Eclipse for GWT, Java, Python, (and even for PHP too), but at work, using Dreamweaver is just easier. The article summary made no mention of using strictly FOSS, so was there a reason to exclude DW?
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