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KDE 4.4 Released Alongside Website Redesign

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the new-and-shiny dept.

KDE 368

Cryophallion writes "KDE 4.4.0 has finally been released, along with a redesign of the KDE.org website. New features include tabbed windows, improved desktop search and social desktop features. 'Major new technologies have been introduced, including social networking and online collaboration features, a new netbook-oriented interface and infrastructural innovations such as the KAuth authentication framework. According to KDE's bug-tracking system, 7293 bugs have been fixed and 1433 new feature requests were implemented.' A feature guide is also available."

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Sweet (1)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074390)

Looking forward to when this rolls out to Fedora 12.

Re:Sweet (4, Informative)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074574)

You can use KDE 4.4 with F12 right now using the Redhat KDE testing repos: http://kde-redhat.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

I haven't bothered checking, but I believe that generally Fedora will wait for the next release to upgrade KDE 4.x numbers, so you may have to wait for F13 to actually get it from Fedora.

Re:Sweet (1, Funny)

davester666 (731373) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074708)

"KDE 4.4.0 has finally been released, along with a redesign of the KDE.org website. New features include tabbed windows, improved desktop search and social desktop features. 'Major new technologies have been introduced, including social networking and online collaboration features, a new netbook-oriented interface and infrastructural innovations such as the KAuth authentication framework

Sounds like they made a mess of the web site. Doesn't make me want to look at the changelist for kde itself...

Re:Sweet (4, Funny)

KlomDark (6370) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075384)

I tried, and yes, F12 seems to work great in KDE 4.4, but my keyboard doesn't have an F13 key so I'm kinda stuck.

// Wait, what?

Re:Sweet (2, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075558)

try shift-f1 (or possibly shift-f3).

Re:Sweet (1)

nine-times (778537) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075394)

Sorry if I'm being too stupid and helpless, but any chance anyone knows were to get a pre-built liveCD image to test this out?

Is it time to look yet? (0, Troll)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074396)

I used to love KDE. I turned a lot of other people onto it.

After 4.0, 4.1, 4.2... After what they did to Amarok... After the pathetic state of the last several Kubuntu releases... The question is, should we even bother to look at this release? Or are they still digging their hole deeper?

Yes, I am aware of the fascinating debate about who is responsible for these disasters. From 10,000 feet above it, it looks like the KDE leadership went to the dogs after v3. But I don't know, and what's more, I just don't care. The point is, the KDE brand is ruined right now. I know I am not alone in thinking this. Remember Linus? This Linus? [desktoplinux.com]

He switched to Gnome too. [blogspot.com] I held out a lot longer before I gave up. I loved KDE3 so much. And I really hated Gnome. Look at Mono for fuck's sake. But you know what? The KDE team beat all that loyalty out of me, crash by crash, regression by regression, blog post by blog post.

And you know what else? Somewhere a long the way they cleaned Gnome up, sanded down the worst rough edges, made it launch fast, and look pretty. It works. My Mom could use it. Unlike KDE4+, last time I looked. Which was months ago, because it was so bad I didn't even want to look anymore.

If I were the "KDE Team," I would lay very low, clean house, and labor until I had something amazing - something that would wow people again. Something original. Something worthy of their legacy.

Is this that release?

Or is it just another bandaid on the broken mess I've been watching unfold?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (5, Informative)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074456)

I think 4.3 is pretty great. I'm running 4.3.5 on Fedora 12 and it's probably my favorite KDE yet. Sure they had to step back to move forward, but sometimes that is absolutely necessary if the current foundation is impossible to support the desired end state.

Fortunately Linux users have a lot of choices, and it will cost you nothing more than time and bandwidth to see if you want to return to KDE or stay on Gnome. Or don't put even that into it and keep using what works for you. Not sure why anyone has to "lay low" or anything like it.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

ipX (197591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074542)

I tried 4.3 a week or so ago when I accidentally broke my Debian Sid system's Gnome dependencies while they weren't in the repo. Man, it was a *headache* to use for about a week. I will give 4.4 a shot, mostly since I can't believe how terrible my experience was and I'd like to see some progress. The raw amount of configuration I had to do to get it to STFU and do my bidding was obnoxious. It's like they hide basic configuration options on purpose. Granted, it looks GREAT and has some nice features like rolling over folders to navigate, etc. I'm not too sure the flashy interface is too functional. But maybe I'm too Gnome-hardened at this point for it to be an easy conversion.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074642)

I tried 4.3 a week or so ago when I accidentally broke my Debian Sid system's Gnome dependencies while they weren't in the repo.

I'm not an expert on these things, but I'm fairly sure that is a complaint about Debian, not KDE. I'm not familar with how Debian does it, but if they handle things anywhere near the same as the Kubuntu people do, that would explain a lot...

Complaints from a GNOME user about ease of configuration are amusing though ;)

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Interesting)

ipX (197591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074724)

I know it's ironic complaining as a Gnome user about configuration, but that's why I am going to try 4.4. The default KDE configuration to me is riddled with excess and it feels like it's trying to show off instead of let me work. The complaint was not that I broke my dependencies; the entire reason for me trying KDE 4.3 was _because_ I broke my Gnome dependencies and fscked things up from a fault of my own.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074734)

No, I think he's saying he tried KDE because he broke Gnome, not the other way around.

And by the way, he's talking about Debian Sid, also known as Unstable. The "real" release is Debian Stable, the others are WIP.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074918)

No, I think he's saying he tried KDE because he broke Gnome, not the other way around.

Yes, you are right. I read that wrong.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0, Flamebait)

SleeknStealthy (746853) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076184)

Well, Debian is actually a smart distro and still keeps kde 3.5 as the stable version of kde. this is because kde 4.0-3 has been horrific and unusable for just about anyone. Having said that, debian does try to provide the best vanilla kde experience possible and if you run kde 4 from testing or unstable (sid). Even still, I will try out 4.4 and cross my fingers, just because I used to be a kde fanboy.

Oh that's easy to explain (0, Troll)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074624)

For the same reason that you do not take a buggy, unfinished mess and call it "v4.0."

When you write software for free, you cannot be held responsible for your code's quality, or your manners, or anything. No one can whine to you that you did not do enough for them for free. There is really only one thing you can do wrong.

And this is set the wrong expectations.

When you see people with their app v0.23beta (that everyone's been using in production for 4 years) - that's setting expectations conservatively. That's saying: "guys, I am not bringing a corporate QA department to test this. It may be awesome, but caveat emptor." This is How It Is Done. I mean, it's very easy. No one's saying you have to do big amounts of work and make something done. Just don't make big claims that it's done either. Or imply it. Or do things that other people could believe are implying it. In fact, if in doubt, just put a warning label. :)

When you say "New! Improved! Awesome! v4.0!!!" and then it fucking sucks, you are committing the only real sin in free software/open source: tricking people.

And even that's OK in the scheme of things. You're only ruining your own reputation. You just shouldn't expect people to keep coming back and wanting to use your code, or work with you, if you do that.

Hence, "lay low." KDE4 was a development branch. It should have been labeled as such, instead of "KDE4." With tiny fine print after you wasted your time and had a horrible experience saying "yeah we know it sucks, wait for 4.1." And with 4.1, rinse, and repeat.

Re:Oh that's easy to explain (3, Insightful)

mattcasters (67972) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075250)

It doesn't even matter if you are right or wrong anymore. Years down the line you're still bashing a bunch of nice and hard-working people. Enough already "Concern". This is really uncalled for.

Re:Oh that's easy to explain (1, Insightful)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075842)

The problem is here is not mean, honest people on the internet - who are never going away by the way, even if I felt too bored to comment - the problem is ego. The giant ego on some people who want to claim their opus is finished when it's not, and they know it, but they just want to pretend.

And they know perfectly well it's not - the bug database tells them so. But they label it "finished" "v10" "stable" anyway. And that's just kind of shameful when you're KDE. It's even worse when people do it on filesystems, databases, mailservers, router firmwares, kernels, etc.

Your no-meanies-giving-criticism world would be a dangerous one. Be thankful you live in the real one instead.

Re:Oh that's easy to explain (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075948)

The fact remains that what he said is true though. KDE keeps repeating this same suicidal formula with every release and now they have utterly destroyed their own credibility. As a former KDE user I've tried every single release of 4.x in multiple distros, and guess what? It's just fucking horrible, up to and including 4.3. Then you get all those idiots saying "I'm using it and it's just fine in [$DISTRO], so I do a test install of that distro and it turns out either those people are liars or maybe all they ever do is check email and browse the web. Who knows? Who cares? All I know is I'm finished with wasting my time checking out the next KDE "release". What a bunch of fucking morons, to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as they did! XFCE and Gnome (and maybe soon E17) are the only desktops left for those of us who demand a full-blown DE.

Re:Oh that's easy to explain (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31076298)

For the same reason that you do not take a buggy, unfinished mess and call it "v4.0."

I don't think you quite "get" open source. The idea is to "release early and release often." This means releasing code even when it's buggy or not fit for human consumption. And a number is just a number. We won't run out of them. The v4.0 means exactly that.. New features, but not bug-free.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Insightful)

chill (34294) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074512)

I had a similar opinion, but ended up upgrading to KDE 4.x from 3.x when it hit 4.3. While things are different, I find it very useful. The only thing I miss at this point is Quanta has no love -- or replacement.

Wait until there is a live distro using 4.4 and give it a try. Remember, different is different, not necessarily worse or better.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075802)

The openSUSE 11.3 Milestone 1 live disc is running a weekly snapshot build of the 4.4 trunk. It is about a month old, but it is a fairly good indicator of the final 4.4 release.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (4, Informative)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074518)

The KDE team isn't responsible for what happened to Amarok, that is a seperate project.

I totally agree though, Amarok turned into complete and utter shit, I used to love Amarok but now I just use xmms2. KDE 4.x has been perfectly usable since 4.3 imho, though I've been using it since 4.1.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (4, Insightful)

ickpoo (454860) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074822)

Agree 100%. Amarok jumped the shark when it went to version 2.x. To the point where it was one of the best mp3 players to what the hell is this?

That said, KDE was almost unusable at 4.0 but is now quite nice (I used Gnome for a bit).

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075100)

We don't use "jump the shark" around here anymore since tvguide bought out the domain and destroyed it.
The proper term to use in cases like this is "nuked the fridge". Thanks.

Amarok 2.x (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075846)

Yup, I am running 2.2 (I think). What is that dammed middle window that wastes space with a stupid picature of a CD. I can't close that pane (pain?) that displays lyrics etc....

I am listening to jazz...no freakin lyrics, why waste bandwidth and cpu looking that stuff up.
How can we customize this away?

I run this on Mepis 8.49 beta 4. I am getting used to KDE 4.3 and await the improved 4.4 !

-Jay

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

hoelk (1537469) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074564)

KDE started becoming good again roughly with KDE 4.3. Try 4.4, you will probably like it! I'm just wondering why kde doesn't manage to produce a proper looking default theme.... Also try xfce! its really great if you just want a clean and fast desktop environment with just the right set of features! I would prefer it over gnome any time!

Re:Is it time to look yet? (3, Funny)

borker (1192445) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074582)

I'm sure the project deeply misses your contributions....

Waaaah (-1, Troll)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074836)

Cheese with your whine?

No one forces you to listen to my opinion, but if you don't want to hear any comments, don't post your creations on the internet.

You don't need to contribute code to have an opinion, any more than you need to pick up a musical instrument and hop on stage to say when a band sucks.

Re:Waaaah (1)

borker (1192445) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075044)

or make any kind of meaningful, insightful comment when running down the work of others on the web I guess.

PS (1, Funny)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075298)

Oh I was hardly vague or speaking out of turn - that's now proven.

I have open patches on bugs KDE4, one for many months, and part of my frustration is watching how badly issues are treated on that project - even when they have a clean fix all prepared and ready to apply, at the end of an impeccably documented bug. But you know, that wasn't even worth mentioning, because your underlying point was so stupid.

Re:PS (1, Troll)

borker (1192445) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075500)

wow, a little ass-hurt there aren't you?

Re:PS (1)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075722)

LOL. Any other last words?

Re:PS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075912)

You *do* realize that bugzilla isn't the *only* method of communication, right?

If you want a patch applied that fixes a bug, hunt down a developer on a mailing list or IRC and wave it around in their face.

Having said that, which bugs are you referring to?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (4, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074620)

I have not used KDE since 3.
The simple reason is that Ubuntu and Gnome feel more finished than KDE did to me.
Gnome really works well for what I need. I use it to launch programs and to manage files.

Where I think both Gnome and KDE are blowing it is complexity.

Take a look at the settings in both of them sometime. Way to complex.
The other place I feel they are falling down is supporting applications.
I love choice but there needs to be some good defaults.
Oh and I wish GTK had a better file dialog.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076030)

The simple reason is that Ubuntu and Gnome feel more finished than KDE did to me

That's not a problem with KDE, but a consequence of the fact that Ubuntu focuses far more on Gnome than on KDE. I still use Kubuntu at home, but from what I've read, other distributions that give more attention to KDE might work better.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (5, Informative)

ACS Solver (1068112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074664)

KDE 4 doesn't seem bad to me anymore. I tried 4.0 and it was a fairly miserable experience. UI issues I could forgive, but not coupled with the constant crashes. I still think the devs should be ashamed for labeling that a release version. 4.1. was slightly better. Lacking configuration options and a bunch of UI stuff, but generally more stable. KDE 4.2. was, finally, something usable and the dev team also said that it's an okay choice for "end users" and not just "enthusiasts". I've been happily using 4.3. since its release and that's a very nice desktop environment, though I do hate the changes to Amarok.

Kubuntu is a separate issue. The Ubuntu project has always been very Gnome-centric, which is one of the things I dislike about the approach to Ubuntu. The K versions have always felt like an afterthought, including the ones that predate KDE4. I wouldn't really say that Kubuntu sucks but it sure seems to implement KDE worse than numerous other distros do.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

mattcasters (67972) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075380)

I've been running Kubuntu for years now. Once I settled on it I didn't really want to change. For over a year I ran Amarok 1.4 on KDE 4.x (yes, that's no problem at all). However, ever since version 4.3 I've been using Amarok 2.x without too much of a problem. The difference is small enough now so I don't want to bother with the older version anymore. Anyway, Kubuntu isn't as bad as it once was. It always had its quircks but I think that a lot of issues were related to the growing pains of KDE, not the distribution as such.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (5, Funny)

Crudely_Indecent (739699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074696)

Are you looking at the same KDE that the rest of us are looking at?

My 11 and 15 year old daughters use it successfully, without crashes.

Dude, you're being out-linuxed by little girls!

Hah! (1)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074906)

OK, OK! Mercy! :)

Victory to the little girls. :)

Which version do you all use? If they like it, maybe it's worth another look.

Re:Hah! (4, Insightful)

Zaai (817587) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075798)

My completely non-technical gf uses Kde4.3 daily for browsing, email, music, pictures (digikam), watching tv (myth) and finds it okay to use. The only real problem she ran into was with kmail, as one of its bugs started eating all her email before she could read them. (I'm banned from using kmail at work for the same reason). She doesn't change settings much but she knows how to go look for them if she wants something. To her its just another computer like those at her work (Windows XP). Last year I used KDE, OS-X (Snow Leopard) and XP. I find them all quite capable and usable. Each one has its irks, quirks and annoyances but overall I'm leaning towards KDE. I'm faster (less mouse travel) with KDE on multiple monitors than on OS-X. Its all good however, keep up the good work.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

InlawBiker (1124825) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074698)

Agreed. Over the years, long ago, the first thing anybody did was ditch Gnome and install KDE. Then at some time, when exactly I don't recall, it became apparent that KDE was a little confusing and the clean, easy old grandpa Gnome was easier to use. Or maybe I've just gotten older and don't want to fuss with the interface anymore, who knows. I've been using Gnome for a couple of years now but I think I'll give the new KDE a shot this time.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0, Troll)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074764)

I agree with what you said about amarok.

amarok 2.x is simply godamn awfull. makes even iTunes look good.

the interface is confusing, can't get rid of that ridiculous area in the middle, the playlist area is overcrowded, several functionalities were lost...

I ended up pinning apt-get on my debian box to grab 1.4.x from debian stable then locked the stuff to prevent upgrades to 2.x. I'll keep that way untill someone shows me an alternative media player for linux that's not an iTunes ripoff, is not amarok 2.x and have all the great functionalities of amarok 1.4 (like the flexibility in managing the copy/move songs to the library, flexible configuration of portable media players, etc.) with a nice interface.

I'm also getting pissed at dolphin either. the old konqueror browser|file manager was pretty decent. dolphin OTOH plain sucks, from the way it displays stuff in detailed view, the impossibility of reordering the columns, how the tree view pane keeps moving the directory tree left and right by itself. again, any sugestions of a replacement that looks/feels more like the old konqueror will welcome.

just one description of my desktop environment: it's a windowmaker (remember that ?) GUI with KDE4 apps thrown in, since the openstep stuff is even more awfull than gnome's ones.

i still want (and for FSMs sake, WILL!!!) keep windowmaker. but i'm willing to give a try to other stuff to replace the kde things i use most (music player/jukebox, file manager, instant messaging, etc). even gnome stuff if they fix that horrible GTK file chooser.

so, any sugestions ? please ? guys ?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (3, Informative)

crwl (802043) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075040)

I agree with what you said about amarok.

amarok 2.x is simply godamn awfull. makes even iTunes look good.

the interface is confusing, can't get rid of that ridiculous area in the middle

You can rearrange the panels (including removal of the middle panel) in Amarok 2.2.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

mattcasters (67972) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075432)

I guess your frustration comes from the fact that there's nothing out there that even comes close to Amarok (either version) in terms of usability and functionality. And that most certainly includes iTunes.

Flame all you want, but that's the reality.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

transwarp (900569) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075502)

It's somewhat better now. I got it to look like this [imageshack.us] , with no center pane. Actually, the center pane is a tab on the bottom of the left pane, which I sometimes find nice.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Informative)

Stachybotris (936861) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075950)

I'm also getting pissed at dolphin either. the old konqueror browser|file manager was pretty decent. dolphin OTOH plain sucks, from the way it displays stuff in detailed view, the impossibility of reordering the columns, how the tree view pane keeps moving the directory tree left and right by itself. again, any sugestions of a replacement that looks/feels more like the old konqueror will welcome.

Right click on a folder, go into properties, click on the wrench & screwdriver icon (settings?), and remove Dolphin from the list of apps to open folders with. Move Konqueror up to the top of the list. Click 'okay' and wait for the system to update the configuration. Done.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (5, Informative)

diegocg (1680514) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074782)

The question is, should we even bother to look at this release?

Yes, you should. Not only Plasma has become a viable replacement of the old desktop, it has improved to the point where I would miss it in a KDE3/Gnome desktop. The netbook plasmoid is interesting not only because it's better for netbooks, it's a proof of how flexible the whole infrastructure is. You even can switch your desktop to the netbook plasmoid in the desktop preferences (it's not only useful for netbooks, newbie users could use it aswell in workstations).

Amarok dropped the new ugly UI, and went back to a UI like the one they had in the 1.x series.

Nepomuk not only it is becoming a cool tool, it is also starting to allow to do [wordpress.com] today the same kind of things Gnome's zeitgeist will do

External projects like Koffice 2, K3B or Gwenview are stabilizing after the switch to KDE4....

I'm afraid that the KDE brand is ruined only in the head of people who haven't bothered to look at how cool KDE4 is...

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

schon (31600) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075032)

As you've got some experience with it, I'd like to ask you a question about my main problem with KDE4...

Have the re-added the terminal window sizing features? The terminal went from great (in 3.x) to useless in 4.x... I could only stand using it for a couple of hours before I switched back.

First problem: there is no "save settings" (terminal size, font, etc.) - KDE 4.x seems to want to save the settings from the last terminal you opened or closed.... sometimes, but not others. I have yet to determine why it sometimes "saves" and sometimes doesn't, but it was horribly annoying behaviour.

Second problem: there is no "resize to X by X" in 4.3. If you want the terminal to be a specific size, you have to fuck around with the mouse pointer until you get it "just right". This is annoying to no end - especially when you combine it with Problem #1 above. I want my terminals to open in a default state, and if I occasionally need one of them to be a different size, I'll resize it so it's as big as I need. The problem is that KDE will "helpfully" open new windows to this new odd size, which means that when I open a new terminal window, I need to resize it before I can begin using it.

Have they fixed this?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Welsh Dwarf (743630) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075498)

OK, I'm running 4.4rc so I might be able to help.

For the first problem, the 'save settings' has been replaced by the profile system. When you modify the settings your actually changing the current profile, so that might explaine some things. Don't use profiles myself but there.

As for the terminal size, not to say but I can't see a use case for having a fixed size, and IIRC the 'save window size' thing is done outside the application, ie it's a standerd, probably window manager, thing.

HTH

David

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Informative)

schon (31600) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076254)

For the first problem, the 'save settings' has been replaced by the profile system. When you modify the settings your actually changing the current profile

OK, so is there a way to make it *not* change the profile?

I can't see a use case for having a fixed size

Using multiple terminals, when I want to see what's going on in them at the same time. Also, some terminal apps are "optimised" for 80x24 or 80x25 (and some don't display properly when using the "wrong" size.)

IIRC the 'save window size' thing is done outside the application

It's not a window manager thing - the app requests a specific size when you open it (which is why in 3.5, you can save the settings from the menubar, and why "Width" and "Height" appear in the config file.)

I suppose I could force the windows to open at a specific size with the "Window-specific settings" control panel, but that seems like a huge hack.. I guess if I've got no choice I'll try it... thanks for the idea.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075834)

I was also annoyed by the new menu and that most icons on the desktop react to mouseover to display useless isons for a even more useless configuration screen. I prefer click to focus and this focus follow mouse wannabe is annyoing.

Thank you. (1)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075164)

This is the kind of informative post I was hoping to get. It seems like it's time to look again.

I hope I made clear exactly how and why the KDE team ruined their own brand. No one else is responsible.

I hope I also made it clear how glad I will be to see them find their feet again and if this is the release I can finally use, then I only have one last observation:

Maybe they should call it KDE5 or something else that would draw attention to a newly working release (as opposed to the "KDE4" splash that drew attention to an unusable mess). :)

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075280)

diegocg, which version of Amarok are you using because my 2.2.0 still looks like shit.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Welsh Dwarf (743630) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075524)

You do know that you can re-arrange your Amarok any way you want, don't you (yes you can even remove the central zone if that's your thing).

David

Re:Is it time to look yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075606)

How can you re-arrange things in Amarok? It's not obvious to me.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Insightful)

harmonise (1484057) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075754)

I'm afraid that the KDE brand is ruined only in the head of people who haven't bothered to look at how cool KDE4 is...

I couldn't care any less about how "cool" KDE4 is. I care about stability and functionality and being able to get my work done. What are your opinions on the functionality? Is it working well for you for day to day work? Any glaring bugs or issues? You also mentioned about external projects saying they "are stabilizing." Does that mean that they are not yet stable and have work to do to become stable?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Interesting)

CDPS (1106089) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076160)

I'm afraid that the KDE brand is ruined only in the head of people who haven't bothered to look at how cool KDE4 is...

I agree that KDE4 is "cooler" looking than KDE3. Unfortunately, for many of us that actually use Linux to get work done, KDE4 is much less productive than KDE3. I was a heavy user of many of the more advanced features of Konqueror for example. However the Konqueror in KDE4 is a pale imitation of its KDE3 self. You want a simple example? Just try editing your Konqueror bookmarks in KDE4. Nearly faster to edit the bookmarks.xml file--in fact you appear to have to do that to do an obvious thing like reorder the toplevel folders. Another problem is stability. My main machines still have KDE3 on them. They routinely go 2-3mos. without rebooting *and* without having to restart KDE3. I have yet to make it more than a couple of days without something serious enough happening to KDE4 that it has to be restarted.

I am hopeful things will improve with KDE4 so that I can use it productively, but my experience so far has been very disappointing. Particularly since posts pointing out missing/unworking features are usually met with responses about some kind of unwiedy multi-step partial workaround or posts about all the great new features that the other person loves but are not useful to me. Sorry, but I will take productive and stable over "cool" looking with my desktop.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074810)

I tried 4.0, decided to sit way back and switched with the Jaunty on 4.2.2 but upgraded via backports to 4.3 and since then I've had no real issues. The only issue I have is that my sound sometimes fails to initialize, but it seems to be a heisenbug with my chipset in ALSA that is hard to pin down as others report the same. What seems to me as the biggest problem right now is that several of the KDE projects are really struggling to keep up with the times like Konqueror or is never hitting release quality like KDevelop4 which expected their 4.0 release to be at end of March. Most of the releases are frameworks and APIs or some gee-wiz plasma widget but pretty soon I'm not running a single KDE app anymore and then there's little point in running KDE either.

Kubuntu (2, Insightful)

russlar (1122455) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075048)

After the pathetic state of the last several Kubuntu releases...

I think that's half your problem right there.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (5, Interesting)

carlmenezes (204187) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075066)

Honestly, give up on Kubuntu if you want to use KDE. In fact, even using Ubuntu + KDE which was more stable than Kubuntu in my experience, I still had to manually customize a heap of stuff and it felt flaky. Then I switched to OpenSuse 11.2. Bliss I tell you. It is KDE how KDE should be done. I didn't have to tweak anything - even Firefox fitted in from the get go. Give OpenSuse a try. Those guys know what KDE should feel like and it shows when you use their distro.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075390)

If someone has mod points, mod parent up.

As a huge Ubuntu fan (which to adopted while KDE was getting over the 4.0 fiasco) I looked to Kbuntu for the same quality as regular Ubuntu. Its just not there. If you want a "quality" KDE4 release, you really need to try OpenSUSE.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075924)

I use Kubuntu, but it's really Ubuntu minimal + KDE4 Repos. It does amazing things. I've been running the beta for a bit and it's solid (Kopete and plasma crashes though - nothing showstopper). I also have the latest Amarok and really like it. It's finally were it needs to be. Now, if they could actually come up with something similar to Amarok 1.4's Music brains tagger, then officially there's nothing left over 1.4

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075530)

You're judging KDE from Kubuntu? You know that Kubuntu's KDE is one of the worst out of all the distro's right? Yes, KDE on one distro is a different experience from another. Personally, I had the best KDE experience running Archlinux. I also used Kubuntu and have thought their KDE was pretty bad.

Maybe, you were too much used to KDE3 to be fair? (3, Interesting)

yet-another-lobbyist (1276848) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075564)

I had used KDE3 for about 1-2 years, when KDE4 appeared. No question, 4.0 was impossible to use, and 4.1 was painful (my experience is with kubuntu). However, the breakeven for me was with KDE 4.2, when I thought this was a product at least as good as KDE3. Yes, there were features in KDE3 that KDE4 was missing, but there were also loads of new features, concepts and functionality in 4.2 that 3.5 couldn't do. I also always found 3.5 quite ugly.
I totally disagree with your notion of "digging the hole deeper". As much as things got better from 4.0 to 4.1 to 4.2 (in my opinion), they just continued on that trajectory to making 4.3 way better than 3.5. Now, I have been using KDE 4.4 betas for at least a month (in a production environment -- call me stupid, but I am just amazed about KDE4), and I am still thrilled how much better and nicer it got! Hell, I am even using the "crappy" kubuntu distro everyone is yelling at. OK, call me a fanboy. But you should know that I also seriously tried GNOME, and LXDE, and Xfce, and even IceWM -- I all didn't like them and went back to KDE4.
Maybe, it is just that you were so used to KDE3 and so good at it and so happy, that there was no way of matching your productivity with something as new and innovative as KDE4? I think KDE4 is going into a new, exciting direction, and that it will pay off that they did everything from scratch at some point. Similarly, Linux sucks for so many people who have been conditioned to using Windows, that they don't get anything accomplished in a different environment. Could that be some of the reason for your disappointment (along with your anger)?

Re:Maybe, you were too much used to KDE3 to be fai (3, Funny)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076182)

First of all I really appreciate you sharing your perspective on this.

Who can be objective about these things? I loved KDE3, really did. I've really enjoyed may different fundamental UI frameworks, from Amiga's Workbench to nextstep to early gnome and xfce... Everyone's particular about different things. Who knows.

Obviously KDE4 was unstable for ages, but beyond that there seemed to be things that hinted at a bad underlying direction, too. Take the plasmid that showed folder contents on the desktop. Context menu items, keyboard shortcuts, and drop behaviors were broken and/or different from what konq or dolphin did. You know, I actually liked that they contained the "desktop" folder in a plasmid and let you control that. Great concept. But someone clearly was implementing file management a second time rather than generalizing what KDE already had. And that's just the first basic bit of functionality on the desktop that most everyone sees by default.

It's just one example. It was not only a bad user experience (when the DEL key deletes selected files, except on the desktop), but it betrayed a kind of architectural ineptitude.

BTW, I assuming they must have fixed that DEL key on the desktop at some point. But did they do it by laboriously getting the plasmid to copy the existing file browser code?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (4, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075766)

Kubuntu consistently puts out the worst KDE packages. If you want a good KDE desktop, please try another distro like openSUSE, Fedora, Sabayon, Arch, PCLinux OS, Mandriva, etc.

If you want to blame someone for the "disaster", consider pointing a finger at your distro.

Usually when I make this statement, half the time I get modded troll. The other half of the time I get modded informative. Frankly, I don't care. But I am speaking the truth here. Anyone who follows KDE knows that 90% of the complaints seem to stem from people running terrible Kubuntu packages.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Concern (819622) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076246)

I specifically made that point about arguments over blame because I was aware of this issue. I know that KDE blamed Canonical for having "bad" KDE4 releases. And they may well indeed not be good at doing a KDE distro. When I try again it will not be with Kubuntu, this much is certain.

What makes this argument confusing, though, is that it started around 4.0 and 4.1, back when it was not possible to have good KDE releases. In the end, it's tough to make yourself care who blames who.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (2, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076308)

I heard that a lot, so when I went to try KDE 4.3, I've did that with OpenSUSE.

Guess what? I've had a crash within 5 minutes of using it, just by right-clicking something randomly in the file manager. Another crash 10 minutes later in Amarok.

That's called "stable" these days?

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076072)

I agree. When I first go into Linux (I think I first installed Debian around 1997, but it was really 2000 or so before I really got into it heavily) KDE was THE desktop environment to use for general use (I still used WindowMaker when programming back then, but for general use, it was KDE). By comparison Gnome looked like some cobbled together hack. I remember way back when when some organization (who I'm not even sure had much "authority" to make such a claim) proclaimed that Gnome was going to be the "official" desktop environment for Linux (at the time this was due to GPL issues with the QT toolkit), I was greatly saddened. To me they were choosing the inferior product because of petty licensing issues.

Somewhere along the road though, things changed. It's almost like the Gnome team focused on creating an actual slick and useable desktop environment. KDE by comparison almost feels like trying to use some proof of concept research project. Ideas batted around about what COULD be on desktops in years to come (and like all such ideas, only some small subset will ever be seen as useful additions/changes). In simple terms: Gnome started looking professional whilst KDE just keeps looking weirder. Now, don't get me wrong - anything that might attract more users to the platform in general is a good thing, but I just don't see myself seriously looking at KDE for actual usage.

Re:Is it time to look yet? (1)

Requiem18th (742389) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076384)

Meanwhile this loyal Gnome user dreads the time when "Gnome Shell" becomes mandatory and forces me to switch to something else, KDE or XFCE I'm still not sure.

What I hate about KDE4 right now is the Henry Ford mentality of, you can have your features any way you want them as long as you want it as a plasmoid. I HATE DESKTOP WIDGETS, desktop widgets are basically small applications that don't scale and use a different window manager, one which is less functional and harder to use than the default window manager... but ohhhh it supports rotating! WTF IS UP WITH THAT? WHO WANTS TO ROTATE A FUCKING WIDGET?

At least with Gnome every panel and panel applet is optional, how come Gnome is the most configurable desktop of the two now?

Nice redesign ... by a junior! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31074478)

Wow almost a meg for the front png file slide4.png ... easy to understand why site inst responding already....

Re:Nice redesign ... by a junior! (2, Informative)

bigdaisy (30400) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074882)

1.3MB for the "footer1.png" file! Linus is gonna be pissed when he sees the bill for data on his Google phone.

Re:Nice redesign ... by a junior! (1)

tyrione (134248) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075936)

Wow almost a meg for the front png file slide4.png ... easy to understand why site inst responding already....

It's painfully slow. They must have something against a jpg file format when it comes to the large graphics size or they just can't figure out you can create layers [divs] to duplicate that front pay with alpha transparency in pngs while the background including the shadow and rounded rectangles can actually be a jpg inline. It would most likely take > 1MB and cut it down to around 200K.

It is time to look (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31074534)

KDE 4 (since 4.2) has been best desktop environment i have ever used. Kubuntu releases are not that good but they get the job done. I really did like KDE 3.5, but now i don't miss it at all. It seems that in every new KDE release, there are tons of new features that nobody really finds or notices, and still they are very important tiny things that make it faster and easier to use.

It still sucks for developers (5, Interesting)

pclminion (145572) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074634)

The API "documentation" is still completely unorganized and most of it is just Doxygen pages. While the Doxygen tagging is fairly good, this is not a "manual," it's a reference. And what about Plasma? I've wasted hours hacking applets without a real understanding of the APIs. The Plasma API front page [kde.org] is pretty much useless.

Although I suppose somebody will now yell at me for being too lazy to contribute to the docs... I'd be happy to, if I had some kind of handle I could grab to bootstrap myself and start delving into it. But seriously, no, you don't get good docs by people who are unfamiliar with the code just staring at it and trying to document their own misunderstandings. Somebody who actually designed and wrote this crap needs to step in. Please?

Re:It still sucks for developers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31074840)

I you really want to start developing KDE applications or plasmoids, you should have a look at the KDE Techbase [kde.org]

Re:It still sucks for developers (1)

JoeSixpack00 (1327135) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075012)

And this is different from most Linux projects how?

(Not trolling - longtime Linux vet speaking here, but sometimes things just are what they are...)

Re:It still sucks for developers (4, Insightful)

pclminion (145572) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075214)

And this is different from most Linux projects how?

I don't think KDE should view itself as "most" Linux projects. KDE isn't an application, its a framework and base upon which to CREATE an entire desktop environment. Given the amount of hours which have obviously gone in to code development, I'm just asking for a tiny fraction of that effort put toward helping me understand how to develop apps for it. Open source shouldn't have to be synonymous with amateurism. And like I said, I'd be happy to help with docs, but I need some guidance. I really am not in the mood to spend several weekends working on docs just to have some "guru" tell me that I'm completely full of crap and I've just been wasting my time (and this has happened to me a couple times, it really has a tendency to sour a person toward contribution).

Re:It still sucks for developers (1)

fulldecent (598482) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076382)

>> But seriously, no, you don't get good docs by people who are unfamiliar with the code just staring at it and trying to document their own misunderstandings. Somebody who actually designed and wrote this crap needs to step in. Please?

Disagree.

I started developing for KDE as part of GSoC 2006. It was a hell of a time getting started, and I made little progress towards the actual project. But in the meantime, documented the process of getting involved with KDE so that other people can breeze past the stuff I did and make it further.

I maintain the http://kde.org/community/getinvolved/ [kde.org] website and have worked with Quality, Techbase and code docs.

Can I put my taskbar at top now? (1, Insightful)

xoundmind (932373) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074956)

Why, oh, why would they have removed such a basic desktop functionality. My eyes are above my nose, mot in my chin.

Re:Can I put my taskbar at top now? (1)

bcmm (768152) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075060)

You can already do that in 4.3...

Re:Can I put my taskbar at top now? (4, Informative)

pclminion (145572) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075272)

There's no such thing as a taskbar. There are Plasma panels, and these can be located pretty much anywhere you want. Just add a new panel to the top of the screen and put whatever widgets in there that you want.

Re:Can I put my taskbar at top now? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31075628)

> There's no such thing as a taskbar. There are Plasma panels,

This, this right here is what's wrong with KDE4.

Re:Can I put my taskbar at top now? (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075862)

I think I've seen a fully customizable panel (in any location) since KDE 4.1, or 4.2 at the latest.

Re:Can I put my taskbar at top now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31076400)

Oh my, your nose must be big. :-)

help, i'z been slashdotted... (1)

budr (111245) | more than 4 years ago | (#31074976)

Gee, I was tooling around the kde.org website, seeing what they had done with the new layout, and all of a sudden I can't get to the site. I wonder what coulda happened all of a sudden...

Link? (1)

Prien715 (251944) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075372)

Anyone have a link to the binary that actually works? Tried a bunch of the ones in mirrors and none seem to function.

Gnome 3 (1, Troll)

JoeSixpack00 (1327135) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075430)

Anyone else on here notice the video of Plasma Desktop on the release page? It looks awfully similar to the proposed Gnome Shell for Gnome 3.0 [omgubuntu.co.uk] . I don't believe in that KDE vs GNOME fanboy nonsense, but I think it's more than fair to compare them from a technological standpoint. The primary feature pushing Gnome 3.0 was Gnome Shell, but KDE has almost completely duplicated its functionality 6 months before 3.0's release date - assuming it won't be as buggy as Plasma was when it started out.

I wonder how this will affect the future of KDE and Gnome.

Re:Gnome 3 (4, Informative)

RPoet (20693) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076342)

KDE hasn't duplicated the feature; it was being worked on long before Gnome Shell was even conceived.

Come a long way (2, Interesting)

C_Kode (102755) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075554)

The decision to seriously overhaul KDE was a great decisions in the long run though it was completely unusable for several releases after the switch. I must say, it is beautiful now. With this release, I think it's time for me to switch back.

I love the new features shown in the videos.

What's a good KDE distro? (1)

harmonise (1484057) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075590)

The last time I used KDE was around the middle of 2000. 10 years on I'd like to try out 4.x and see what all the fuss is about. Can anyone recommend a distro that has a good KDE experience? I hear that some distros have screwed up KDE 4.x so I'd like to use one that will give me a decent experience.

Re:What's a good KDE distro? (1)

chammy (1096007) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075736)

I'm running Fedora 12 with KDE 4.3 and it's rock solid. Add in the fact that the experimental mesa drivers are packaged and work with no fiddling in F12 (I'm an ATI owner) and you have a perfect setup.

Re:What's a good KDE distro? (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075906)

openSUSE is the best in my opinion. If you install the 11.3 Milestone 1 (alpha release) it comes with an early build of KDE 4.4 out of the box. Or you can install openSUSE 11.2, add a KDE repository, and grab the latest KDE that way.

They have good Firefox and OpenOffice integration with KDE, stable packages, and a great desktop overall.

Arch, Fedora, and Sabayon also put out good KDE 4 desktops.

Re:What's a good KDE distro? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31076010)

Mepis 8.49 beta is the most stable beta you will ever use.
Way more stable than Ubuntu !
Warren Woodford polishes Debian to a gem-like sheen.
-Jay

Re:What's a good KDE distro? (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076016)

Fedora.

I hear OpenSuse is good as well, though I cannot personally attest for that.

What about plasma-widget-networkmanager ? (1)

zx-15 (926808) | more than 4 years ago | (#31075814)

Was that thing finally rewritten, because knetworkmanager is kind of pathetic -- it doesn't even show type of encryption of available networks, and I know I could get that information from /sbin/iwlist, but the whole purpose of that program is to be convenient, and it fails at that. What happened to network manager plasmoid, where did it go in 4.2, is it coming back and why in gnome everything is working. (netbook-remix is sweet, BTW).

Nepomuk (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076012)

My only complaint with 4.4 is that I get an error message if I'm not running Nepomuk.

If I start it, it crashes most of the time. Even when it runs without crashing, it does nothing for me. I've noticed that every major distro has open bugs relating to Nepomuk crashes, and I'm not seeing fixes to be found anywhere.

If enough apps do a good job of making Nepomuk useful, then I might consider it in the future. But right now I have zero interest in it, and it isn't exactly optional in KDE 4.4.

It is the only ugly wart on an otherwise great release.

does multiple monitors work now? (1)

rhavenn (97211) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076158)

So, does it now work with multiple independent X screens? I have 2 monitors and find Xinerama and Twinview to be annoying, but as much as I love KDE I just can't use it without having the 2nd monitor work.

Oh noes, Slashdot coverage and a spelling error (0, Offtopic)

wintercolby (1117427) | more than 4 years ago | (#31076360)

Good thing so few of us actually RTFA, let alone the feature list, but:

This abitious release had its share of issues but did also show the great potential our products have, resulting in a large number of new contributors.

Should be ambitious, someone please let the KDE website folks, I can't because I'm at work.

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