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How Easy Is It To Cheat In CS?

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the no-no-you-want-game-theory-down-the-hall dept.

Education 684

Pinky3 writes "The New York Times has an article on cheating in CS at Stanford. Here is a classic quote from one student: 'I wasn't even thinking of how it [sic] easy it would for me to be caught,' he said. One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered. Share your experiences as a student and/or as an instructor."

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Who cheats who (5, Insightful)

menegator (539434) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111862)

He/she who cheats discovers later why this is a bad idea.

Re:Who cheats who (5, Interesting)

dkh2 (29130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111910)

Absolutely. I've actually had to work with someone I knew was cheating in school and they couldn't code their way out of a pile of leaves, let alone a wet paper sack.

They got the grades because they cheated. They got the job because they got the grades. Eventually, they were among the first to get the layoff because B and C students like me just plain outperformed them day in and day out on the job.

Re:Who cheats who (5, Interesting)

WombatDeath (681651) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112314)

Years ago I worked as a developer for a subsidiary of Fujitsu. One day a colleague asked for my help.

The crux of the problem was that he was unfamiliar with the concept of a 'while' loop. Not the specific implementation in the language he was using, but the actual concept itself. He had some kind of computer science degree and he'd been working in the same team as me, as a developer, for at least two years.

It took me a while to realise what the problem was, as it never occurred to me that he might be unfamiliar with basic control flow. He sheepishly explained that the bulk of his degree was coursework (presumably he got some 'help') and that he'd been hammering square blocks into round holes for the last couple of years. From what I recall, whenever a while loop was appropriate he'd instead use a for loop with an extremely high upper limit and a break condition.

On The Other Hand (5, Insightful)

sycodon (149926) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111942)

When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred. No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.

Need a report that's "like this one except for..."? Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go. Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.

Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?

Re:On The Other Hand (5, Insightful)

dkh2 (29130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111994)

But, to be successful over the long haul you have to be capable of producing the report from scratch in the first place. Cheating your way through school does not promote that skill set. Sure, you know how to copy and paste the right code but... can you tell why it's the right code in the first place? Can you optimize a/o improve the copied code?

So, I agree on your point re: reuseable code in the workplace but, you still need to do the work up front.

Re:On The Other Hand (1, Insightful)

travdaddy (527149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112232)

To be really successful over the long haul you have to be capable of both producing the report from scratch AND be capable of copying it from somewhere else while presenting it as your own to save valuable time. So, really the correct way to go through CS in school is to be able to do it but cheat anyway, and since you know how to do it then you should be able to change the copied code enough to not get caught. If that takes longer than actually creating the code from scratch, and it will be pretty close if you're ensuring not to get caught, then go ahead and create it from scratch.

...OK, OK, maybe it's simpler to just not cheat.

Re:On The Other Hand (5, Insightful)

edittard (805475) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112012)

How is a person able to "add some mods" if he's spent four years cribbing everything and never coded anything himself?

Re:On The Other Hand (5, Interesting)

Ngarrang (1023425) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112142)

How is a person able to "add some mods" if he's spent four years cribbing everything and never coded anything himself?

You've never worked with COBOL in a mainframe environment, have you? At Cincinnati Bell Information Systems, there are billions of lines of COBOL, APL, PL1, Assembler, Forth, FORTRAN and God knows what else. You didn't write any NEW apps from scratch. You took what was written, modified to do "the new thing" and you were done.

And people were paid big money back in the 1990's for this. A buddy of mine still codes in Assembler for 5/3rd on their mainframe, because the speed of the code is so much faster, by several orders of magnitude. He occasionally gets to write a new program, but rarely. The majority of his job is modifying 40 years of accumulated code.

Re:On The Other Hand (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112078)

Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?

At least two.
There is a nice trick that helps you save memory. You don't have to use it though, but then you use a bit more memory.

Re:On The Other Hand (4, Funny)

dintech (998802) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112126)

In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment. We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable. Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100! Mother f$@%^&. It's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.

Re:On The Other Hand (2, Insightful)

zill (1690130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112274)

Didn't catch the subtle hint from the TA, did ya?

Re:On The Other Hand (5, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112158)

Depends on the cheating. If, for example, you decide to cheat by taking some code from outside and incorporating it in your product, I doubt that your manager will be happy when your company is later sued for copyright infringement.

Re:On The Other Hand (4, Insightful)

SirGarlon (845873) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112178)

When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred. No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.

But that's not cheating. Academic cheating is a breach of ethics: you're told your work must be original but you re-use some else's anyway, without permission from your instructor.

The professional analogue of academic cheating is copyright and patent infringement: using third-party code without consulting your supervisor, the legal department, and so on. That is definitely not encouraged in any corporate setting I know of; the threat of an IP lawsuit is so great that it could drive a small or mid-sized company out of business.

Sharing code between two projects at the same company may or may not be allowed depending on the business use of the respective code bases. For example, the company may not want the latest fancy libraries from R&D being imported into their internal business apps. Again, if you went and did that without approval, I doubt your boss would be happy.

Re:On The Other Hand (2, Insightful)

Giant Electronic Bra (1229876) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112228)

Yeah, as a few others have said, I agree with you and I was going to post something similar. At least up to a point. Most software development projects are highly cooperative affairs and its rarely a matter of success hinging on one's brilliance as a coder. Still, you have to be able to contribute and at least some members of the team need good design skills of various types.

The reality is that successful projects mostly succeed because someone in charge is good at utilizing the strengths of the other team members. Even a technically weak team can do quite well on many classes of projects if well led. CS courses have gotten better at teaching team building but still overemphasize coding. One wonders if some of the 'cheaters' might not actually be on the right track...

Re:On The Other Hand (3, Insightful)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112258)

Need a report that's "like this one except for..."? Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go.

Dear god, anything but a copy and paste programmer. We had one here and the results and the results are devastating. Giant swaths of repetitive code pasted in large blocks, all mangled (I mean 'modified') in their own way. It's obvious the guy had no clue what he was doing and it's even harder to understand what his code is doing because so much of it is completely unnecessary.

Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.

Sure, but building a reusable code base is something I would hardly consider cheating. Building proper and efficient classes and then leveraging them to handle 80% of your work takes experience that you cannot obtain by cheating.

Re:On The Other Hand (1)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112330)

I agree, but the jist of it is to under stress be able to think for yourself, and come up with the answer because you know it, not because you looked at someone else's paper, however, I do think school and the real world are not the same. They should marry the 2 on a test, but separate the questions based on how you answered them. If you got help, using a computer and google or whatever, that question is then added to a subset for marking that is based on how you used that info rather then knowing it, and you will be judges also on how well it performs after... where as the questions you knew the answer to... are kep in that subset and marked accordingly, so 50 out of 100 questions were answered by computer and 50 by knowledge, your test score now is 2, 50/50 and 50/50...so you end up splitting the test score then taking the average between both scores to get the final score. The only critical thing is to be able to know when someone had help for an answer, it would be tough to know, but maybe facial recognition, and monitoring like they do or even an actual eTest that when you needed help (internet) you would then have to click on a link, which would set a flag for that question before moving to use the browser...?

It could show promise.

Re:Who cheats who (2, Insightful)

Average_Joe_Sixpack (534373) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112014)

I don't know... there seems to be a lot of perks for Goldman Sachs employees

Re:Who cheats who (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112150)

Can't you just tell me why? I won't tell anyone you told me.

Re:Who cheats who (1)

mikes.song (830361) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112154)

I don't know. Those that cheated got better grades and jobs than I did. Are they still working? Don't know. They are likely in management. Pissed me off when I was in school, because the professors like the cheaters. They got much better grades, and some went on to get MS degrees in CS. But, now I'm successful and make money on my own projects running my own business. That's something they could never do.

Re:Who cheats who (1)

nomad-9 (1423689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112180)

He/she who cheats discovers later why this is a bad idea.

Unfortunately, his/her co-workers too.

It perverts a "natural selection" in the industry, leading to an increase in the number of incompetents, doing a disservice to all capable workers in the field. You get a person like that in your team, and you end up doing extra work in any case:

  • if he/she stays you'll have to spend time correcting his lack of skills
  • if he/she is sacked, you'll have to add at least part of his assignment to yours

They should be expelled from CS, and subscribed to Economics, to match their natural talent. They'll fit perfectly in Wall Street & Investment Banking.

Re:which snappy comback to choose? (2, Funny)

BForrester (946915) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112290)

A - You're talking about CS students here. No need to include the possibility of "she."
B - Is that you, Tiger?

Re:Who cheats who (5, Funny)

terjeber (856226) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112312)

Some times not even later.

As a CS student my buddy and I (we were working as teams) were tired of people copying our stuff. We shared with anyone who wanted to, and had full read access for anyone to our code, so we didn't make it hard for them to copy. Still, it was annoying to do the work and then have others just copy and hand in.

Our assignments required print-outs delivered with the software (yes, this is before there was even an internet) and we suspected people just copied our software, compiled it (which incidentally at the time could take hours) and ran it without even looking at it. So, just for fun, we inserted into our own code the equivalent of a system call to "rm -rf $HOME/*" (yes, this is before we got our Pyramid Unix boxes, so it was not exactly that). We did this two days before the assignment was to be delivered. It took less then an hour before we heard the first "WHAT THE F#CK HAPPENED???". Five teams were unable to deliver their assignments.

Interestingly two of the teams complained about our behavior to the professor. His only reaction was to ask if they had some serious mental problems (or the polite equivalent). I am sure today we would have been sued and the morons would have won since we "hacked" their accounts.

Re:Who cheats who (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112334)

Bad thing is this is widespread. Cheaters would get temporary benefits, better grades than non-cheaters, resulting in better job offers and the illusion of professors they are doing such a great job as so many people have such high marks, while the reality is completely different. I studied CS on an elite university and the amount of cheating there was like that of MBA students. During exams so many people were bombing answers (prepared sheets with answers to questions which they substituted during exams as most questions over the years were repeating) it was unbelievable. Now they are slowly getting to control the industry here... What kind of innovation can you expect from such people? How would they treat genuine talents (answer: badly, truly badly)? Can we do something about it? Hardly, it's too late and neglected for too long.

first post (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31111864)

I cheated and copied this post from another article.

Re:first post (4, Funny)

zeromorph (1009305) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111936)

And you failed. QED

Re:first post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112256)

He copied that too.

Cheating (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111866)

It's easy to tell who cheats in life. Those who are successful and do little work cheat while those who do all the extra work to take up the slack do not.

Re:Cheating (1)

badran (973386) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112114)

I think you got it wrong.... The ones who are doing too much work GOT CHEATED..... specially the one in North Korea, China,.. Africa to name a few places....

Re:Cheating (4, Insightful)

johnlcallaway (165670) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112214)

It's so much easier to believe successful people must cheat then to accept the truth that there are people out there that are actually smarter, more motivated, and more clever. I've known a few people who are multi-millionaire's ... and they are all far more talented in those categories than I am.

My ego is small enough that I can accept that I'll never be able to match their talents, nor do I want to work that hard to be that successful.

He has a great career in front of him (5, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111868)

From TFA: Mr. de la Torre was taking the computer science class for a second time in his junior year when he cheated. After he was disciplined, he resigned from his position as student body vice president in November

He shouldn't have resigned, I think he has the makings of a great politician...

Re:He has a great career in front of him (1, Interesting)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111880)

He's hoping for a career as a Fox News analyst instead.

Re:He has a great career in front of him (0, Troll)

TrancePhreak (576593) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112056)

He'd be better suited to working with Dan Rather.

Re:He has a great career in front of him (1)

edittard (805475) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111886)

He shouldn't have resigned, I think he has the makings of a great politician...

I was going to disagree on the grounds that he got caught. But I had to take a phonecall from the 1980s.

Re:He has a great career in front of him (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112104)

He shouldn't have resigned, I think he has the makings of a great politician...

It's ok, he resigned because he got his PH.D online and now runs a major U.S. corporation and has a hot trophy wife... Seriously why do people not understand that the reason your bosses are so grossly incompetent is because they only play by the rules when it's necessary...

Hey, If they do get fired one day they simply have to re-pad their resume and get their buddies to give good references. There isn't a "previous work database" where your history is kept.

He performed the operations out of order (1)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112112)

The new method is to be declared a criminal before entering politics.

It has been adopted because it is much more efficient and sets the standards lower.

CSIt's easy... (5, Funny)

Nomaxxx (1136289) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111878)

yep... easy to cheat in Counter Strike.

Re:CSIt's easy... (3, Interesting)

228e2 (934443) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111930)

CounterStrike was the first thing that came to me when I saw the title :/ (is this bad?)

Re:CSIt's easy... (2, Funny)

thijsh (910751) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111974)

My first thought also was: 'Cool, they have a Counter-Strike class and the professor got fragged and flunks the campers for cheating'.
But when I googled 'define:CS' I found the most appropriate definition: 'Caugt Stealing' :)

Re:CSIt's easy... (2, Funny)

Custard Horse (1527495) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112004)

Bizarrely I was in the same CS class as a chap called Bott and he was indeed stupid. The significance has only just struck me.

anti-cheat (1)

nnxion (964168) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111960)

Well the professor used Valve anti-cheat and temp-banned him. :)

One word... (1)

chaotixx (563211) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111888)

...decompiler.

Re:One word... (1)

andy19 (1250844) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112166)

I'm thinking two words: Open Source.

Expelled (2, Insightful)

berj (754323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111894)

Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh. You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.

I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes (especially the earlier ones) were huge. I never met most of my classmates. I would be *extremely* pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else's cheating.

Re:Expelled (2, Informative)

Anonymusing (1450747) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112052)

Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh. You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.

Many years ago, the University of Virginia had a policy where students caught cheating were kicked out, and then their records were burned publicly. Don't know if they do this anymore.

Re:Expelled (1)

zill (1690130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112320)

As far as I know, the punishment for cheating at most universities is expulsion. The offense will be kept on permanent records so that you'll never be admitted to another university in the country again.

Re:Expelled (2, Informative)

TwiztidK (1723954) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112196)

Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh. You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.

Most universities kick students out as soon as they are caught cheating. If the cheaters try to go to apply to another school, the last question on the app is usually "Have you ever been disciplined for Academic Dishonesty?", to which answering "yes" is an auto-fail.

Cheating in CS? (4, Funny)

Lord Lode (1290856) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111916)

Wall hacks and aim bots, that's how...

Re:Cheating in CS? (1)

vintagepc (1388833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112124)

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX! (points finger) Heh.. could you imagine the prof turning in to a real life Dr. Hax any time he catches someone cheating? (More than enough decomissioned CRTs... that's not a problem).

Maybe cheating in CS is easy... (4, Funny)

GhigoRenzulli (1687590) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111926)

... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.

Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.

Re:Maybe cheating in CS is easy... (1)

vintagepc (1388833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112138)

Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.

Now who's cheating at slashdot? You don't RTFA, EVER.

Re:Maybe cheating in CS is easy... (4, Funny)

berashith (222128) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112288)

reading the article is definitely cheating. If you cant divine the information from the summary , at least try to infer it. The low uid guys only read the first three letters of the headline.

Half of the story. (3, Insightful)

llvllatrix (839969) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111928)

It's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment. Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that didn't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people's work (while they went to class).

Re:Half of the story. (1)

Nidi62 (1525137) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112212)

Easy way to solve that. Hand it in personally to the teacher, with your name only on it(along with anyone else's who may have helped out) and tell the teacher that the other people in the group did not do any of the work, so you felt there was no need for their name to be included on it.

Re:Half of the story. (3, Insightful)

llvllatrix (839969) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112300)

Tried that and was hit wit the whole "you should have managed your group better". Unfortunately firing my team members for gross incompetence wasn't an option :(

Cheating is laziness... (2, Insightful)

Manip (656104) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111934)

Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place. Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website. The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.

I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.

Re:Cheating is laziness... (1)

Drethon (1445051) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112102)

I've been told at work that the best engineers are lazy. Thought its the kind of lazy where they spend a half an hour writing a program to replace days of manual entry as opposed to getting others to do the work for them...

Re:Cheating is laziness... (4, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112252)

Yup, good programmers are lazy. Good programmers will write the smallest amount of code to solve the problem at hand, because the more code you have, the more potential for bugs. In general, 50-90% of development time is debugging, so a lazy developer will write code that is easy to debug (short, simple, well-structured). If this cuts debugging time in half, it can double or triple productivity.

Unfortunately, students seem to not be learning how to be lazy very well. One course I taught had a URL at the end of the coursework sheet which pointed to a site that had code that did around 90% of what you needed for a passing grade. A lazy student would have copied this, changed a few things, and then spent some effort on the things needed to get from a pass to a first class grade. Only two of my students actually did this. In another course I taught, the back page of my hand-out notes had the complete solution to one of the questions in the assignment that I set. Only 10% of my students even attempted that question, and of those less than half got it right.

I think I blame schools giving grades for effort. It reinforces the idea that putting in a lot of effort is laudable, even if you don't achieve anything.

Re:Cheating is laziness... (5, Insightful)

ThinkingInBinary (899485) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112136)

Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website.

I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.

...huh?! If we're talking about university classes, the idea that anything other than perhaps the intro courses would use materials provided by some company (say, the textbook publisher) is absurd. Also, what kind of a professor would outsource their tests to an independent organization? How can they possibly know the course material well enough, and adjust for what's been covered during the semester, and such?

No outside help ? (5, Insightful)

ccandreva (409807) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111968)

I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help."

Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating. How else does one learn ?
If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?

I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort. This was part of the learning process.

Stevens Institute in Hoboken and Internships (1)

JakFrost (139885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112244)

I was working at a major investment bank around the year 2000 or 2001 and my manager and I interviewed candidates from your school, Stevens Institute in Hoboken, for a summer internship that year. We came back with three male interns for a Windows Server Administration department who I worked with personally. Their internship was pretty good for us but kind of boring for the kids as we'd see them spend more time on the Internet browsing than learning how to do real work, then again I don't blame these kids since corporate server work is pretty dull from their perspective. We took the interns along with us on all the interesting projects and support cases and even gave them long term design and coding projects to do during their term. We got some help out of their internship and they got a taste of what it is like to work in a major corporation over a fairly easy summer.

Re:No outside help ? (3, Interesting)

gatzby3jr (809590) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112280)

I think this more has to do with contracting a 3rd party to do the project for you. While you might say this is redundant, as that is plagiarizing, there's a subtle difference. I would take it to mean plagiarizing to be taking code off the net and passing it as your own, copying to be copying your work from another classmate, and outside help by just asking another programmer to specifically do your project.

When I was in my senior year of CS study, our OS teacher made us do code walk-thru's with the TA's to demonstrate how our code worked on our last project. I didn't think much of it other than a time waster. My opinion changed drastically when I arrived at my appointment.

The student in front of me was still in his appointment, and was being questioned by the TA. After listening in for a few seconds, I learned that the student could not tell the TA where the entry point to the program was. He didn't know where the main() method was in the program. Nevermind the complexity of the whole program (that worked), but he had no idea where it started. He kept INSISTING that the work was his, but couldn't tell the TA how it began.

It was pretty clear he had someone else do the program for him, whether he contracted or copied it from a friend as the project was pretty specific in nature, don't think you could have downloaded it from the web.

I soon had a whole new outlook on code walk-thru's in an academic environment.

Re:No outside help ? (2, Insightful)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112296)

Agreed. Learning to ask for help, getting outside help, and incorporating that advice into your work is a huge part of learning.

There's definitely a sliding scale between: "will you help me to understand X?" and "will you do X for me?" And it's more than just a line between those two points, because there are other ways to get help, such as group projects, or working side-by-side with an expert. It seems obvious to me that the intent of the code is to stop students before they get all the way to the latter.

Or perhaps the clause is temporally dependent: maybe they really mean the code to say "will not plagiarize ever, will not copy work ever, and will not get outside help during an exam or quiz unless it has been explicitly permitted by my instructor." (I'm thinking of one of my profs who holds "open-notes / open-laptop / closed-neighbor" exams.)

Dumb cheats are easy to catch (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31111980)

You can obfuscate someone else's code such that the prof won't notice. OTOH, if you don't know what you are doing, you will make some dumb mistake that will lead to your detection. My favorite was the student who left in all the inline comments (probably because he didn't recognize them for what they were).

Students who can successfully disguise someone else's code could probably write their own code and are just being lazy. As such, it isn't a complete disaster if they pass the course somewhat undeservedly.

Does the school have tutors? (1)

SirLurksAlot (1169039) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111984)

If the school has any number of gullible/inexperienced Comp. Sci. tutors then it may be very easy. I tutored Comp. Sci. for a while and there was no lack of students who thought they could get me to do their homework for them. It always started off with "I have this assignment and I'm confused about this part of it.... can you help me?" Of course most of them understood when I only gave generalized answers that didn't have anything to do with the assignment, but there were always a few that thought I was simply being unhelpful. I know some Comp. Sci. tutors though that simply went along with the students and practically did their assignments for them, but it didn't really bother me because I knew the cheaters would either get caught in school or (worse) it would come out in their work if they ever got hired somewhere.

Like... wall hacks? (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111986)

Oh, wait.

Why cheat at all? (1)

gatkinso (15975) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111988)

It isn't as if Computer Science is extremely challenging.

Buckle down and study. Sheesh.

Re:Why cheat at all? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112298)

I must second this.

CS is fun. I like CS. But lets be honest, it is not hard. Time consuming? Hell yeah, but it's not hard by any means.

Of course it is easy! (0)

B5_geek (638928) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111996)

This is how AND why computers work.
Simple and exact reproduction.

Another way to look at it:

There are only so many ways you can type:

10 print "Hello World!"
20 goto 10

(Yes folks that is the limit of my programming knowledge. I busted my cherry on a C64.)

Re:Of course it is easy! (1)

dkh2 (29130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112038)

Why do I feel dirty after reading that parenthetical comment?

Re:Of course it is easy! (2, Insightful)

lxt (724570) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112194)

I think I disagree - the beauty of programming is everyone codes in a different way. I taught entry-level CS. A simple java 'print "hello world" 10 times using a for loop' question may only have one solution, but dozens of stylistic variations. Square braces on the same line? Spaces between your commas? System.out.println() or System.out.print? Cheating in CS is generally pretty easy to catch when somebody is just copying code, because it will be totally out of style with their usual work. The problem comes when someone is cheating to such an extent that *none* of their code is original!

When stealing code... (1)

shoppa (464619) | more than 4 years ago | (#31111998)

When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not. Seriously.

Most undergrad-type computing courses tend to have homework or test questions that have one really super obvious working answer. "Obvious" at least after you know it! There often really is a single best way to do something. Obviously local variables and order of initialization don't always matter.

But there are lots of suboptimal approaches and some really wrong ways to do things too. You have to give them some credit for trying. But if half the class tries to do a suboptimal approach and they all used the same local variable names and forgot to initialize the same thing that should've been initialized, it really is painfully obvious to the graders.

Stealing good code or at least learning from good code should be encouraged. But stealing bad code, or even worse code that doesn't actually work, really is a crime. Not just from the academic-honor system standpoint but from the "Crimes against nature" standpoint.

Re:When stealing code... (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112304)

When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not. Seriously.

Oh, for a mod point. I haven't taught for a little while, but I was astonished that all of the people who cheated seemed to pick the worst person in the class to copy from. The code didn't even compile, let alone work. If you're going to copy, at least copy from someone competent.

Cheaters (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112000)

How can I reach theeese keeeeeeeds???

So funny.. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112022)

Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me. At my school in Cambridge, Mass. (not MIT, the other one), every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system. The system was very good, I am not aware of any false positives, and it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.

This system was in place somewhere in the early to mid 1990s (I was a freshman in 1996, and it had been used for at least a year). This was explained to everybody the first day of each of the 2 intro CS classes. There were several people in my freshman class in '96 who were expelled as a result of being caught cheating in CS 50. Oops. Anyway, this is now old technology - if you don't know it exists or don't believe it's so easy to fingerprint code, you are an idiot.

Furthermore, if you were the "cheatee" and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy, you would both be subject to expulsion. Ouch.

If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code, you aren't taking a *risk* that you will be caught, you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught, then you don't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.

Re:So funny.. (1)

donaggie03 (769758) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112236)

... and it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.

This has been mentioned a few times already, and I completely disagree. Yes, if someone is given an algorithm to implement, it may be easier to do it themselves than to obfuscate someone else's code. BUT an important part of many computer science assignments is to first figure out the algorithm you are trying to implement. If a student understands the very basic code syntax and structure, but sucks (or blows) at problem solving, then it may actually be easier to change someone's code.

Since problem solving and algorithm development are arguably the more important aspects of most CS assignments, the cheater places himself at an even greater disadvantage.

i won't say where i went to college (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112046)

but the class was LISP, and we had to write a program to play the card game "go fish". our algorithms would compete against each other (the winner and runner up algorithms were both claimed by a high school student auditing the class, but that's another story)

i took the class along with my physics TA

he came to me and offered a good physics lab grade in exchange for me writing a separate "go fish" algorithm for himself

i took him up on the offer. the algorithm i wrote for myself did ok, but the algorithm i wrote for him sucked. problem was, i wasn't doing that bad in physics lab to begin with. so i think i actually wound up putting my grade in jeopardy by disappointing my physics TA

just do the work, because any schemes you concoct will wind up backfiring in ways you don't intend and don't foresee. good cheating requires control of too many variables, so to cheat successfully, you often wind up stressing yourself out more than just slogging through the work

It is not just the student... (1)

iOdin (1741304) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112064)

The story is usually aimed at why students are cheating instead of going through the work and learning. Well, that is partially the story. As others have commented, course instructors are also to blame. I did my bachelors in CS at Illinois a few years ago, and this "cheating" issue popped up in almost every course I took there. Typically, it went like this: First day of class, the professor will threaten damnation and hell on earth if students are caught cheating (in assignments, programming projects, etc). Then, after the first homework is graded, the professor will show up and claim that he is disappointed in about a quarter of the class that ripped someone else's code/solution and submitted as their own. Lastly, the professor asks those students to formally apologize to him and re-submit the homework again. (In fact, only two courses did this, the rest just stopped at step #2). Did students learn anything? Of course they did not. They always got a second, and third, and fourth chance. As if that were not enough, professors would typically recycle both assignments and exams. While this point could be argued both ways, it does not take much to find solutions online and just rehash them. With this approach, students typically do very well in assignments and take home exams, do terrible in closed-notes exams, but still manage to pass and graduate - from supposedly top notch institutions. Interestingly enough, these are then the same persons that take a job (mostly because they come from good CS programs) and can't handle simple 101 crap.

banned! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112084)

Where i come from, cheating is a potential criminal offence, or grounds for expulsion from school.

I caught several cheaters (5, Interesting)

RichMan (8097) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112086)

I did many years in grad school and discovered several cheaters. The lack of punishment for such was part of what caused me to abandon a career in academics. Part of the discovery that academics is a very very political space. A system that tolerates cheating perpetuates cheating and rots itself from within.

1) Crowded class writing mid-terms. There are 2 copies of the exam with minor but significant variances handed out in a checkerboard pattern. Am proctoring and see a student looking at another paper get another to proctor to witness it. Make a note on the exam when collecting it. Sure enough they guy has the right answers to the wrong questions. No way that would happen without copying. Have to write a formal description of what happened, it goes up the chain. Nothing but a "formal reprimand" on the record and zero for that exam.

2) Programming lab is scheduled 1/2 the class every other week. They are supposed to write code during the lab and have the help of the tutor to explain things. On second week I have people handing me a program "how does this work". I reply "didn't you just write this?" It takes me a couple of minutes to get them to admit they did not write it.

This is university, they are paying to learn. Yet they are unwilling to work at it. I wonder what they are looking at getting out it?

The number of taxi cab drivers with university degrees does not surprise me.

A ramble from the TAs view (4, Interesting)

lxt (724570) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112094)

I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school (you can probably guess which one from my job title alone). I worked both in session with undergraduates, and in the summer for the high-school/further learning program.

Cheating in CS is terribly easy to detect. We had programs we could use to pick up anything suspect, but I never actually used them - at the entry-level I was teaching at, it was pretty easy to catch someone out. In fact, often you can complete the assignment in the time it would take you to modify your stolen/plagiarized code so as to be undetectable. Half the time you just need to google the code they submitted before you find a forum/Yahoo Answers post from the student in question, and once you've been coding a student for a while you get a good feel for what exactly is and isn't their style and their code.

As to preventing it: there was a very simple policy at my university. You cheat, you fail. In most cases, it was rarely followed. We tended to be far more strict at the Summer School sessions, but then again, we also tended to get considerably more problems, mainly because the high school students and foreign exchange students attending didn't know better. The university also didn't really have a problem showing them the door.

Undergraduates were more of an issue. A lot of the time, we would let them know we'd discovered it, and let it slide. Repeat offenders were usually dealt with by using some kind of grade penalty. Very rarely did students get referred for academic discipline (although this is partly due to the entry-level nature of the courses I taught. Something high-level, or with a substantial amount of original research required, would be another story).

Finally, and perhaps most importantly - why were these students cheating? Well, honestly, I suspect because of the academic pressures placed upon them. I'd be extremely interested to compare the rates of detected cheating at somewhere like MIT, where grades are rounded up/down for GPA (ie, get a B+ and it's recorded as a B in your GPA, get an A- and it becomes an A) and at my university. Given the vast number of emails I used to get at the end of each semester from students desperate for a grade boost to help their GPA, I can see how some might have convinced themselves it was 'ok' to cheat. And maybe....just maybe...people are cheating because they're not getting the support they need. The article says the guy was taking the class for the second time. Sounds like maybe he wasn't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him. Just a thought.

CS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112110)

Man, I thought this article was about Counter Strike...

Not sure about that strategy... (1)

8tim8 (623968) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112118)

>One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.

I don't teach CS but I do teach college-level history, and I think that would cause some problems. For one thing (if I understand what they're saying), essentially everyone's grade changes whenever even a single student is caught cheating. If you aced the midterm that was 40% of the grade, well, sorry, now it's only 30% of the grade and you'll have to make it up on the final. While cheating is, obviously, a bad thing, I don't think the entire class should be made to suffer because of it.

CS doesn't require cheating (2, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112156)

It requires a personality trait. If you don't have it, then you shouldn't be taking that course. The last thing the workforce needs is another cert chaser who has no talent and no skill in that line of work.

And frankly, if you have that personality trait, then cheating is far from necessary. CS isn't so much about memorizing as it is about understanding the material. There are often many correct answers in CS.

CS (1)

sirber (891722) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112160)

Always easy to cheat in Counter Strike ;)

It's probably harder now than it was... (1)

Phil_at_EvilNET (569379) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112168)

...back when I was in college. Part of my CS studies included classes that involved coding for the AS/400, the VAX/VMS and COBOL. I had the good misfortune of being at a school that was rather relaxed in terms of security and almost everyone left their "password" the same as their user ID, which just happened to be the same name used for their personal directories. It didn't take much time to sort thru every possible directory and copy every possible file you could to "learn from example". During the next semester, I managed to finish all the labs for my first course of C programming in 3 weeks, and I got a "B" on the final. Did I cheat? Yeah, I guess you could call it that. Did I learn anything? Sure did. Take security seriously.

dont fail students for cheating (1)

Nidi62 (1525137) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112170)

You dont fail students for cheating. You fail them for getting caught.

Yeah, it's very easy to spot. (1)

Sowelu (713889) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112174)

I TA'd for an Intro to Java course. (Say what you will about Java being a crummy language to start with, or early classes being slow--our second-year-plus classes were brutal.) For a fair chunk of the first quarter, programs were basically identical...but after the point when we WANTED you to write identical, correct code, cheating sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't know the details of our cheating detection program, but it operated partway into the compilation step so it sees through superficial changes. Change a comment? Wouldn't matter, it wouldn't notice. Change your variable names? Same thing. Declare your variables in a different order? Yeah, it'll spot that too. You have to actually start changing the program flow--in significant ways, no less!--before it stops tripping on your program. And even then, it'll often flag similar programs as "hey, a human should check these out". Cheating happens a lot more than you'd think in CS classes. And in my department, at least...I know that we sent every last one of them to the Dean.

are you marked as a cheater for reusing your code? (1)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112188)

are you marked as a cheater for reusing your own code?
Under that coding checking system?
How does the code checker not flag common parts and it's up to the professor to know that and you just hope that some dumb TA or sub knows as well or you may be marked as well.

any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.

also some times part of the job is working off of some old code based and adding to it / hacking it to work with newer stuff.

Easy. Wallhacks, aimbots, all at hand's reach... (1)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112190)

oh, this is not about CounterStrike?

Very easy, and very easy to get caught (2, Insightful)

ThinkingInBinary (899485) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112208)

I've been TAing every semester since I got to college, and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through MOSS [stanford.edu] (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?] Stanford). We exhort that it's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past it, and that they really ought to just contact the course staff if they're in a bind, as there's really nothing worse for them than getting caught cheating. And every semester, we find several pairs of students who have copied each others' code. Sometimes it's a literal, word-for-word copy (comments too) with the name changed (or occasionally without!); sometimes it's the same structure with different comments, suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.

I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion. The idea that honest students spend hours working on an assignment, and then someone who didn't plan their time well, or doesn't get things as well, or is too lazy to ask for help thinks they can just not do the work and get the same grade is offensive, and cheaters should be punished accordingly.

My experience with cheating (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31112226)

I was an undergrad at a small state school at a time when CS was the ticket to a guaranteed well-paying job. The department at the time was growing in the tens of percent per year due to the rate of people joining the program. Unfortunately, cheating rapidly became so rampant that when I graduated, as few as 10% (by one professor's estimates) of those graduating could actually write a compiling program in any language. The department was set up from the start in a way that encouraged students to copy code. The introductory class in Java consisted of copying a professor's code off of an overhead and running it for credit, so that only students that started with an understanding of Java actually left introductory CS with an idea of how to write a Java program. Fast-forward to my senior year to see just how bad the problem actually was:

One professor, upset with rampant cheating, suggested that a second-year competency exam should be given where students are expected to write programs to do something basic like a sort or search in an environment where they were supervised in order to prevent cheating. Professors more concerned with the growth in the department and with the influx of funding were so angry about this suggestion that they nearly came to blows.

In a senior-level assembly programming class, a student came to me for help because he didn't understand it. Looking for an analogy he'd understand, I started going backwards through everything we'd ostensibly learned in the program asking, "Do you understand this? Can you do this?", and the response to each question was no. Finally, I came to, "Can you write a Hello World program in Java?" He responded, "No." At this point I told him that there was no way I could help him and that he'd probably want to consider retaking the introductory courses to CS. He started crying. It is really pathetic to see a grown man with a wife and kids cry. I asked him to stop, suggested that he reflect on how this came to be, and consider a different career since he'd never survive as a programmer. He asked me if he could make a copy of my notes and I agreed. The next day, he and about 12 other foreign students handed in photocopies of my notes (which weren't even a functioning assembly program) with my name still on them. They all got an A on the assignment, which the prof had obviously never even looked at.

For a larger sample, consider our senior project. We were assigned groups of four students to write a complex program over two semesters. Each group had to meet with a faculty advisor every week, and I was usually the only one of the four that actually showed up. Incidentally, I was also the only one actually working on the program since the rest of my group simply wouldn't respond to e-mails for months at a time. In the last weeks, desperate to show that they had done some sort of work, the rest of my group came to me begging for something to do. I told one to write some HTML for the web front-end of my program, and asked the other two to work together to use the API that I'd developed in a user-friendly GUI. The results were hilariously bad. The HTML I was handed was the department web-page with some images and text changed. The GUI was the e-mail I sent them with some random pieces of Java and C++ sprinkled in here and there. When I brought this to the attention of the prof, he agreed that my group had done essentially nothing and passed them all. The major observation here is that out of four randomly selected students, the only one that could even provide something that worked had copied it from the department web page. Further, most of the other senior projects that I saw that day looked like something I could have slapped together in a couple of hours.

The moral of the story is that, at least in the early 2000s, cheating had become easy due to the easy availability of code, apathy on the part of the faculty, classes built around a fundamentally bad premise, and that the department was more interested in funding than producing qualified students. I don't know if this is still the case, but this article leads me to believe that it may still be.
   

Algo (3, Insightful)

Broken scope (973885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112230)

There are only so many ways to write a Las Vegas Algorithm when the teacher counts off for not following the algorithm as stated in pseudo code in the book.

Then he wants you to structure it a specific way. Then he wants a certain input. Then he wants a certain out put.

By them time your done, the only part of your program you get to "write" is the gui to display the output.

Oh and it has to be in the prof's preferred language, java.

So you end up with alot of remarkably similar programs, especially when the teacher has all these style demands and the same prof teaches students 2 or 3 classes in and everyone starts naming classes and methods the way he does.

Cheating - remove the incentive to cheat instead (2, Interesting)

janoc (699997) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112272)

I have taught several introductory CS courses and to be honest, I was not interested in playing policeman and checking whether students are cheating or not. Instead, I have established a two tier system: - For homeworks that had to be turned in, these were corrected by the students themselves. I did some spot checks to warn those who were cheating and to ensure that the corrections are up to par, but didn't really put much effort into chasing cheaters. The homeworks were primarily a feedback for the students and an opportunity to learn. However, to give them an incentive to actually do them, they could pass the exam orally in advance instead of a practical programming exam if they had 80% of homeworks right. That was strong motivation for many of them, because they perceived the oral exam as easier (even though in reality they had to do much more work over the semester for it). Now, the purpose of the oral examination was simple - to establish whether the homeworks were actually done by that student or not. In my experience, if someone was cheating, he didn't have a clue whatsoever what the code he has handed in does. At best, he could memorize some superficial stuff and do some hand-waving over it. One or two targeted questions over the details of the assignment has always uncovered this. No need for any computerized code comparison tool (which would be always gamed) or tiresome reviews of the homeworks. - For the regular exam which was always written, practical programming assignment on a computer in the lab (CS exam on paper?? WTF?), I have allowed the students to bring their own code snippets (e.g. from homeworks), use their books, even internet. This essentially makes all what would usually be considered cheating allowed, lessening the burden on me - I did not have to spy on them whether or not they are cheating. My reasoning was that the students should demonstrate practical knowledge how to solve problems, not whether or not they have memorized stuff (which is what the exam would be about if the books were forbidden). Now, of course, if the student didn't learn anything, the books will not help - they would spend most of their time searching for information and run out of time. One disadvantage of this approach is obvious - it puts a bigger onus on the examiner to prepare meaningful exams. Assignments like "Implement quicksort" are useless, because the students can find them ready made online or in the book. On the other hand, I do not think it makes much sense to examine whether or not a person can implement quicksort - it is not a real-world problem. Better give them an assignment where the quicksort needs to be used - the clueless one will not find it online so he cannot readily cheat and the smarter one will see the similarity and solve the assignment without problem. To conclude, I do not believe in the various software to catch cheaters. Especially not in CS - the students are very smart and will be always able to game it. If the teacher is doing their job, this is not needed.

At my state school... (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112306)

It was easy to cheat if you were an Asian, and you cheated using a foreign language. In one egregious example, some students were sharing a graphing calculator with study material loaded on it. The professor kicked them out of the exam, but was brought up on charges for racial insensitivity and the students were allowed to retake the test.

Slap on the wrist? (1)

Pedrito (94783) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112308)

One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.

Another interesting strategy is to fail them out of the class. There's no excuse for cheating. The punishment should be severe. Especially if it's something obvious. For example, when I was in school, some moron managed to get a copy of my code for an assignment (possibly a copy I left on the hard drive). They were so stupid, they didn't even remove the comments from my code, including the ones with my name. Given that I was getting an A in the class and the other person was doing pretty poorly, the professor had no question about who wrote the code. His only question was, how was I connected with the person. I was like, "Who are they?" I didn't even know the person and fortunately the professor believed me.

But the point is, they could have hurt me by their cheating. If the professor thought we were in cahoots, I could have been punished for merely being thoughtless and leaving a copy of my code on the hard drive. The cheater should have been failed out of the class, as far as I'm concerned, if not suspended or expelled. I busted my butt in college and never cheated and I observed a great deal of cheating. It's completely unfair to the rest and I have no tolerance for it.

Depends how CS101 goes (1)

kiehlster (844523) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112310)

We had the case of redundant solutions in our 101 classes, where everyone came up with the same solution to the same problem even though we didn't copy off each other. After that, the professors didn't seem to care because they decided the homework problems were so simple that anyone could code the same solution without collaborating. I certainly was honest, but when comparing solutions with classmates, it became pretty apparent how easy it would be to cheat.

Georgia Tech (1)

gtarget (1360439) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112322)

I am a student at GT, and the MATLAB class that all the Engineering majors have to take is rampant with cheating. Out of a class of 100 people maybe half that do the assignment, they just get some 'smart' kid to do it and they all just submit the exact same code (minus changing their name) - the instructors don't even bother to look for cheating. However, in the CS dept, in the classes, the TA's often will read your code, so you aren't really able to get away with it.

Punish-the-group theory... not so good (3, Insightful)

adosch (1397357) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112328)

FTFA, I understand the argument of, "Your friends want to cheat, great. Good luck on my uber-weighted final worth, now, 102% of your final grade", and I am personally not a fan of it. I've seen that type of methodology applied at the 101-level and gen-ed classes but I just don't like it at any level as it applies to college. IMHO, I paid for my schooling with the G.I. bill and the rest of it in loans and of course it would piss me off when I'm putting in hard, valid work in a class and not cheating to be punished for what others are doing. If people cheat and don't take the class seriously, the Mr/Mrs Professor should deal with that student accordingly and make sure it qualifies for an automatic failure of the class. I had professors in college that has a very low threshold for that type of behavior and the student would learn (or mom and dad fronting the college bill every semester would learn) that taking classes over and over will only make you either a 7 year senior or a drop out. Furthermore, I don't like how the professor gives up his authority and puts a layer of discipline on the students by punishing them. Is he looking for a militaristic approach? Does he think all the kids in the dorm are going to gang up on "the cheater" and give him/her a blanket party? Absolutely not.

However, when I started working in the real world in the Information Technology field, I never knew that this "group-punish" methodology would apply at most of the jobs I've been at with substantial perks (e.g. Work-from-home a good portion of the week, very flexible and accommodating work schedules with the option to make up time whenever).

To me, it just reminds me of being treated as less as an adult and more like a 2nd grader having to lay their head down on their desk for someone talking in the back of the classroom during teacher instruction time.

cheating in CS (1)

dnaumov (453672) | more than 4 years ago | (#31112346)

I thought VAC was pretty decent in preventing cheating in CS and Valve has been banning cheaters left and right?
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