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Open Source 3D Nvidia Driver Is Ready For Fedora 13

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the oh-that's-nouveau-riche dept.

Graphics 160

An anonymous reader writes "Red Hat has already been using the Nouveau X.Org driver in Fedora for providing display and 2D support, but with their next release (Fedora 13) they will be making open-source 3D acceleration readily available to those using Nvidia graphics cards. Red Hat has packaged the Nouveau 3D driver in Fedora 13 and what makes it interesting — besides being an open source 3D driver that was written by the community by reverse engineering Nvidia's closed-source driver — is that it's one of the first drivers to use the Gallium3D driver interface. Phoronix has tested out this Gallium3D driver for Nvidia GPUs in a Fedora 13 daily build and found it to run with a variety of OpenGL games, with benchmarks being included that compare it to Nvidia's official driver. The performance is far from being on the same stage as Nvidia's official Unix driver."

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KDE Sucks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177500)

Reasons why KDE sucks:

1. Obsession over K: All KDE developers have a fetishistic, homosexual "K" fetish. If you take a look at KDE software, you'd notice that most if not all software names begin with the letter K. It's frustrating to see the letter "K" staring at you from every where like a two-bit faggot. There's Kmenu, Kaffine, K3B, KDawson, KKK, etc. "K" isn't the sweetest letter of the alphabet, in fact it sounds like a sharp gag, as in Koughing on Kock. So sticking a "K" in front of every name makes it every bit as gay as the iPods and iPhones without the "Kool factor".

2. Too much menu-bloat: KDE has way too many options. If Gnome were Windows XP, then KDE would be Vista or 7 - more petty superficial options which give the user the impression of Kontrol while ultimately doing jack shit. Sure, customizations are all good and nice, I don't want to be presented with a fuckload of options while changing the wallpaper. Take a look on "Configure Konqueror" option in Konqueror-the default browser for KDE. All those options and not a single NoScript or AdBlock, the shit that counts.

3. Package management: Synaptic is the fucking best, period. You'd think that they'd get the one thing which should tell the operator what the fuck is going on, the package manager, right. But the Kooks thought,

"Yeah, let's be different and not use the best fucking package manager in the world because we don't want to be like those Gnome lusers KeKeKe."

Adept fucking sucks. It dosen't show the size of packages or their dependencies. Would it hurt to add Synaptic instead of trying to be Kool? Which leads me to the next point...

4. KDE's software sucks: KDE developers choose software on the basis whether or not they have an integral "K" in it rather than the quality of software. So you will find bloated shitware like Konqueror which makes Firefox look like Lynx in comparison. K3B's messy UI looks like something a tweeking prima donna would crank out pantsless with porn in the VCR and Chinese food containers all over the mattress -- crap, just a whole lot more of it.

5. File navigation: As most of you know KDE uses both Konqueror and Dolphin for file navigation. It's like one of the more zoophilic devs saw dolphinsex.org and thought it would be cute to add a furry element to KDE. This makes navigation every bit as confusing as the KDE devs' sexual orientations. Pick one and stick to it, don't be whores.

6. Konfusing: KDE is a Klusterfuck. Straightforward users will be pissed off by the level of stupid customizations. It's no wonder that Kubuntu is the red-headed bastard stepchild of Ubuntu. KDE users like to believe that they are smarter and more powerful, in the sense that MSCEs are "engineers" because they know how to click menus 'n' shit.

7. The Wallet: In Konqueror if you save password for some website, this 'wallet' password pops up and in order to save the password you have to type another password in the wallet. Hell! Imagine doing this for each and every gay or zoo porn website which asks for a password. Sure, some might argue that it is a security feature, if not letting your jealous boyfriends have a reason to beat your ass is a "security feature" which is moot if your gay jealous boyfriend gets to watch you type both passwords over your shoulder.

Re:KDE Sucks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177542)

And this relates to 3D drivers how?

Re:KDE Sucks (-1, Offtopic)

BitHive (578094) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177660)

I was wondering why my linux lolbertarian control freak friend wouldn't shut up about the freedom KDE gives him and how Konqueror is the best, thanks for the insightful post (which I'm sure will get modded down by people who really ought to be putting on pants and cleaning up the takeout containers).

Factually incorrect troll is factually WRONG. (4, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177910)

Just for fun:

Take a look on "Configure Konqueror" option in Konqueror-the default browser for KDE. All those options and not a single NoScript or AdBlock, the shit that counts.

Konqueror comes, out of the box, with an adblocker which is compatible with (and defaults to) AdBlockPlus' list.

The rest of it is a matter of mostly uninformed opinion, like this:

As most of you know KDE uses both Konqueror and Dolphin for file navigation.

Konqueror is a web browser, it just happens to support Dolphin as a plugin. So nope, no change here. It's other browsers, like Firefox, which insist on making local file browsing look like an autogenerated Apache index.

In Konqueror if you save password for some website, this 'wallet' password pops up and in order to save the password you have to type another password in the wallet.

Yes, once per session. Gnome has an equivalent wallet, and you're not required to have a password for it. It's just helpful if you do -- it's this neat little feature called "encryption". Hell, even Firefox supports a Master Password.

Not really worth going into detail about how wrong you are, since you're already pretty much a troll, but really, you can do better. There are enough things to dislike about KDE that you could effectively troll it without spreading things which are actually wrong.

Re:Factually incorrect troll is factually WRONG. (2, Informative)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179874)

As most of you know KDE uses both Konqueror and Dolphin for file navigation.

Konqueror is a web browser, it just happens to support Dolphin as a plugin. So nope, no change here. It's other browsers, like Firefox, which insist on making local file browsing look like an autogenerated Apache index.

To be fair to the troll, this wasn't always the case. Konqueror was a web browser and file browser, then Dolphin came along later causing some overlap. This overlap has now been mostly resolved.

This post is a troll. Mod accordingly (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177544)

ATTN: This post is a troll. Mod accordingly

Is she illin in the panicillin?
Is she chillin in the panicillin?
Is she stealin in the panicillin?
Is she feelin in the panicillin?

Panka panka

Is she liable no suitifiable pliable style is so suitifiable
Is she liable no suitifiable im not on trial but its suitifiable
Is she reliable no suitifiable not just viable but real suitifiable
Is she try-able no suitifiable lying in the aisle im real suitifiable

Is she spillin in the panicillin?
Is she squealin in the panicillin?
Is she feelin in the panicillin?
Is she trillin in the panicillin?

Panka panka

Is it libel? no suitifiable pliable style is so suitifiable
Is it a style? no suitifiable im not on trial but its suitifiable
Is it a mile? no suitifiable not just viable but real suitifiable
Is it wild? no suitifiable lying in the aisle im real suitifiable

How come? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177552)

Question:

Why "performance is far from being on the same stage as NVIDIA's official Unix driver" ?

Re:How come? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177730)

Step 1: Figure things out.
Step 2: Make them work (correctly)
Step 3: Make them work (fast)

its all a part of the process and step 2 is a HUGE achievement especially when most of the information about the chips was reverse engineered.

Re:How come? (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178538)

They are still early into Step 2. Checking the site and status details out, I can't understand how this is ready for Prime Time. Most cards don't work, many essential features are just plain not implemented...

Re:How come? (1)

Randle_Revar (229304) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179122)

>I can't understand how this is ready for Prime Time

Because this is Fedora. New stuff always appears and/or is turned on by default in Fedora first:
Gallium3d
Radeon/RadeonHD
kms
btrfs
packagekit
consolekit
policykit
devicekit
empathy/telepathy

Also, I think some parts of the Gnome port to dbus appeared there well before they did in other distros

Re:How come? (2, Insightful)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180388)

as a fedora user since the redhat days, I can honestly say one of the only retarded things they've done is replace pidgin with empathy, empathy is nowhere near as mature and feature complete and it was only even suggested because of the lack of webcam in pidgin which has now been resolved anyway.

Re:How come? (0, Flamebait)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179580)

I can't understand how this is ready for Prime Time.

It isn't. Fedora is the beta test edition for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Fedora is not ready for prime time. Lots of people like to live on the bleeding edge, and that's OK, but Fedora is not the real thing. It's the sneak preview.

With that said, the news was not that they were going to make the nvidia driver fail, but that they would include the nouveau driver. So your comment is a total waste of space. HTH, HAND.

Re:How come? (1)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180394)

With that said, the news was not that they were going to make the nvidia driver fail, but that they would include the nouveau driver.

fedora has had nouveau for at least two release cycles now (over a year) don't think you get just how bleeding edge it is (always works for me though at least), the news is that they are enabling 3d support as opposed to just 2d in the driver.

Re:How come? (4, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177738)

Because NVIDIA has access to the docs and these guys don't? It's hard work to reverse engineer a video card and build a driver.

Re:How come? (-1, Flamebait)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178272)

so why are they wasting time reinventing the wheel when they could be working on something more valuable?

Re:How come? (5, Insightful)

marcansoft (727665) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178336)

Because they'd love to be able to work on improving the existing wheel instead, but, unfortunately, they can't.

Re:How come? (4, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178394)

Because the existing wheel is only a temporary wheel that will be taken away the minute NVIDIA wants to sell new cards.

I bet you already knew that though.

Re:How come? (-1, Flamebait)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178562)

what so the moment the lastest card comes out yours stops working? you can download drivers for card on nvidia's website that they were selling 10 years ago. your fears are stupid and irrational

Re:How come? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31178848)

what so the moment the lastest card comes out yours stops working? you can download drivers for card on nvidia's website that they were selling 10 years ago. your fears are stupid and irrational

Just because they are doing it today, doesn't mean they will keep doing it tomorrow. Moreover, just because they allowed you to make a copy for your own use today, that doesn't come with rights to distribute either the original, or derivative works.

If a new game comes out, it might hit a bug in an old driver.
Closed source? Sorry, you're SOL. Suck it up and buy a new card.
Somebody patched the closed source driver? Sounds like Copyright Infringement at $200 to $150,000 for each work infringed. Make checks payable to NVIDIA, c/o Legal Department.
Free software? Cool. Fix it yourself, or hire somebody to do it for you.

This isn't fear, these are facts about the world in which we live.
I choose free software because that's the kind of world that I would like to live in. I think that's a rational action, but YMMV.
What kind of world do you want to live in?

Re:How come? (2, Insightful)

rahvin112 (446269) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179044)

And what happens if tomorrow Nvidia decides it doesn't want to provide those drivers any more and removes all but the latest cards drivers? You can't distribute their binary drivers without their permission (and they don't give it btw). The problem with not using FOSS software is that if the commercial vendor decides to stop selling it there is nothing you can do about it other than offer them lots of money and hope they change their mind. Take windows XP, the day Microsoft decides to stop selling it you won't be able to purchase a new version of it (once existing stock already purchased is exhausted) and then your only option is to buy the newest version with X bad feature.

There is nothing at all stupid and irrational about being prepared for the inevitable with commercial software. Although there are likely very few people still using 3dfx cards you can't get drivers for them anymore. Companies go out of business, change management or simply decide it's in their interest to stop providing legacy drivers all the time. The past is no predictor of the future, as the first rule of stock investing applies almost universally and is "Past performance is not an indicator of future performance".

In fact assuming that nothing will ever change is actually the irrational, stupid and childish behavior.

Re:How come? (-1, Troll)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179196)

actually you can get copies of every MS product right back to DOS 3 via technet. so you'll need use a better example.

your whole premise is a big fail, because some FOSS project is FAR FAR more likely to stop producing updates and go offline (because they got a life/job/girlfriend) then a company like MS or nvidia which has actual funding. i'll say it again, your assumption is stupid and irrational and you've got nothing to back it up.

it's the same kind of thinking as people who stash guns in the attic and keep a hord of canned food for when jesus ends the world next week.

Re:How come? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179452)

HP windows drivers. They just killed a bunch of home printers by refusing to make drivers that scan or do any other "fancy" stuff for windows 7.

ATI does not support my backup laptop with their binary driver, the machine is about 8 years old.

Re:How come? (4, Informative)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179934)

actually you can get copies of every MS product right back to DOS 3 via technet.

Technet is not a retail channel for typical consumers to get a single product. Also, the older products aren't supported and generally don't work on the new hardware around today.

because some FOSS project is FAR FAR more likely to stop producing updates and go offline (because they got a life/job/girlfriend) then a company like MS or nvidia which has actual funding

NVIDIA has already shown [nvidia.com] they are willing to drop driver support for their products when they aren't interested anymore. And it's not just about the risk of if they will stop support, you also need to factor in the damage done - we don't have the option to fix the proprietary stuff ourselves even if we wanted to, but we could fix the abandoned FOSS stuff if we considered it worthwhile.

so you'll need use a better example

So you'll need [to] use a better excuse.

Re:How come? (4, Insightful)

rahvin112 (446269) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180466)

actually you can get copies of every MS product right back to DOS 3 via technet.

Technet subscriptions allow for testing not use. Personal or commercial use (outside as I said testing) of MSDOS from technet is a violation of your license agreement with Microsoft. Not only that but you obviously don't have a technet subscription (I do) as you would know that MSDOS 6.22 is the only DOS available via technet, in addition windows 95 and 98 aren't available via technet. Regardless of being able to acquire it you can't legally run it unless you can purchase a retail used copy. Those sources rapidly dwindle. In fact many commercial software packages have completely disappeared and software drivers for newer versions of software like windows are frequently not available. HP and Creative are prime examples of companies that simply don't provide drivers and force you to purchase newer hardware. It's not unreasonable to assume that at some future date Nvidia may decide to do the same, in fact something as simple as a change in management could cause it.

your whole premise is a big fail, because some FOSS project is FAR FAR more likely to stop producing updates and go offline (because they got a life/job/girlfriend) then a company like MS or nvidia which has actual funding. I'll say it again, your assumption is stupid and irrational and you've got nothing to back it up.

Your belief and assertion that the Linux kernel (after all the entire article is about FOSS drivers for Nvidia cards for the Linux Kernel) is more likely to be abandoned than Nvidia's production of drivers for Legacy hardware is laughably stupid. Such a statement is the height of folly and irrationality and frankly makes you look like an idiot in need of professional help. The Linux Kernel is supported by far more companies with far more resources (apparently the basis of your argument) and in fact was developed even without those resources. It's use in everything from MP3 players to televisions to large mainframe computers and it's nearly 25% market share in all computers guarantees it will survive far longer than Nvidia ever will. Working to develop FOSS drivers for nVidia hardware so future Linux kernels can use such hardware is only logical.

There is no doubt in my mind that at some point in the future nvidia will abandon production of drivers for legacy hardware. It will likely come in a few short years as then current hardware begins to differ so substantially from the legacy hardware as to make driver production excessively costly. Up until the Fermi architecture, even 10 year old hardware still functioned substantially similar to legacy hardware. That advantage will fade very rapidly as the processors nvidia produces move towards general use and likely in a few short years they will abandon legacy hardware as driver production costs escalate. To do otherwise would likely elicit a shareholder lawsuit.

I don't expect any of this to convince you of course, in fact I expect a reply with more silly childish aggressiveness probably with some name calling. With that in mind lets deal with the only premise here is your original assertion and give you an avenue to everyone you know anything at all. You premise was that someone is irrational and stupid to believe that Nvidia could some day stop providing drivers. Rather than asking me to prove a negative why don't you simply present evidence that Nvidia drivers will always be available thereby proving your statement.

So have at it, prove that Nvidia will always provide drivers for every product they have ever made. While your at, show me where I can get (full) 3dfx drivers for windows 7, after all Nvidia owns 3dfx and 3dfx's former products are Nvidias products now. After you prove Nvidia will always produce legacy hardware drivers for the rest of eternity I will happily admit you are right and that there is nothing at all to worry about. Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath. Cheers!

Re:How come? (1)

Vaphell (1489021) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178546)

you have no guarantee that nvidia blob will support current cards in 2015, chances are that in such scenario users of older hardware will be forced to use open source drivers. Same thing with amd/ati - their drivers don't support older radeons, i am sure owners of such video adapters would love to get ANY 3d acceleration.

Re:How come? (2, Insightful)

nxtw (866177) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178838)

you have no guarantee that nvidia blob will support current cards in 2015

Not a problem on operating system with stable driver ABIs.

Re:How come? (1)

arose (644256) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179136)

So haw many desktop operating systems support 10 year old binary drivers?

Re:How come? (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179204)

So haw many desktop operating systems support 10 year old binary drivers?

As of today [wikipedia.org] : just one! (Yesterday the answer would be none.)

Windows 7 still supports the driver interfaces that came with Windows 2000.

Re:How come? (1)

norpy (1277318) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179254)

this is only half true.

64bit windows has deprecated a lot of the driver interfaces (out of necessity) so good luck getting your old hardware to work with 10 year old binary drivers.

Re:How come? (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179308)

64bit windows has deprecated a lot of the driver interfaces (out of necessity) so good luck getting your old hardware to work with 10 year old binary drivers.

If you need to use ten year old hardware, do you need to use x86-64?

With IOMMU [wikipedia.org] s, you can just run a virtualized guest and pass the device to it - be it Windows 7 or something older. (Of course, you can still run recent software on 10 year old versions of Windows...)

Re:How come? (1)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179978)

If you need to use ten year old hardware, do you need to use x86-64?

If you are using something like the DEC Alpha or the early Itaniums, then you will need 64bit support (albeit not x86-64). Then again, you won't be running Windows 2000.

Re:How come? (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179986)

Not really. A lot of newer programs support only XP or newer, so you would have to at least upgrade to XP to get a lot of modern software to run. I'm pretty sure a lot of the major stuff still works, like firefox, and I can't think of any real examples, but there are certainly apps out there that need newer interfaces. I don't believe you can install the .net framework version 3 for instance and a lot of apps have been coded against those libraries. I don't know how much more life support XP has, but I think that within a couple more years the mainstream will have finally moved on to something more modern. I mean there are still windows 2000 holdouts, but the sun set on win2000 quite some time ago.

Re:How come? (1)

arose (644256) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179528)

In theory. In practice I've had Windows 2000 drivers fail on XP.

Re:How come? (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180014)

I have as well. Graphics drivers are not the greatest, for example, because XP brought DirectX 9. Finding binary drivers for ancient hardware can be quite a chore, especially with all the good driver repositories trying to nickel and dime you for some ancient S3 driver they still have sitting on there servers. Nothing is more supremely frustrating than really needing to complete an install and the only copies you can find still out there on the net are sitting behind some pay wall.

Re:How come? (1)

Chang (2714) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179660)

Microsoft broke binary compatibility for many SCSI/HBA drivers between SP1 and SP2 for Windows 2003.

That was in a "stable" series.

Some people found this out the hard way when they saw the bluescreen at boot.

Re:How come? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179174)

Unless a bug is found in the old driver, and now can't be fixed.

Which OS new is using 5 year old drivers, windows 7 does not like XP drivers.

Re:How come? (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179214)

Which OS new is using 5 year old drivers, windows 7 does not like XP drivers.

Most Windows 2000/XP drivers work in Windows 7. This is how non-Aero capable graphics drivers work in Windows Vista and Windows 7; they use the same driver interface as in Windows XP.

Re:How come? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179462)

Try that in Windows 7 64bit and get back to me.

That is the version all the OEMs are having pushed on them.

Re:How come? (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179502)

Try that in Windows 7 64bit and get back to me.

How many people need to use old hardware and x86-64?

That is the version all the OEMs are having pushed on them.

OEMs can install any OS version they like, as can users... especially the users who care about using five year old drivers.

Re:How come? (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180034)

From what I've seen, it I've only seen Home Premium x86 on most new installs. Especially laptops. I don't see a big push for x64 unless I'm mistaken or something.

Re:How come? (5, Insightful)

codepunk (167897) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178696)

So I don't have to waste my time going and hunting down nvidia drivers when I install a new machine....that alone is a good enough reason.

Re:How come? (1)

mikael (484) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178312)

Reverse engineering of hardware interfaces involves running usb, i2c, pci monitoring software to watch to see what hardware memory and registers are being changed. From this, it is possible to write an equivalent driver.

Doesn't Nvidia do some memory mapping voodoo with virtual memory mapping to speed up context switching?

Re:How come? (1)

postmortem (906676) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178746)

Because they do some of stuff in software that card is actually able to accelerate in hardware?
Because unlike wifi and such cards which do most of calculations on host; here they need to make hardware 'do it'?
Because they don't know how to use architecture for which they don't have full specs or programming guides?

They are almost doing mission impossible. Many more man-hours are needed to reverse engineer proper ways to use the hardware. With so many millions of transistors on board, it does not sound promising.

Benchmarks (2, Insightful)

revengebomber (1080189) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177596)

I know it's not a professional project, nor built on any real technical documentation, but I hardly think that an OS should be distributed with a driver that gets 32fps running Quake 3 on a Geforce 9. Can anyone tell me: better or worse performance than using a 3dfx card under Linux?

Re:Benchmarks (4, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177646)

If you have to choose between shipping an open source driver that only does 2d, and an open source driver that does 2d well and 3d poorly which would you choose? People still have the choice to install the official Nvidia driver that they've always had. So this is a good step forward. If it's enough for Compiz, and can do kernel mode setting (which Nvidia's driver won't do), then it'll please a lot of people.

Re:Benchmarks (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31178128)

I am one of those people and I'm very pleased with nouveau. I don't run games on linux very much (outside of teg and dosbox) but I would like KMS and a bling desktop. I get both of these on my 8800gt with a free driver which is now just a kernel option away! Nouveau FTW!

Re:Benchmarks (1, Funny)

Funnnny (1409625) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179280)

Congratz, you just bought a car and ran it at 30km/h.
Get a driver license and do a 100km/h please

Re:Benchmarks (1, Informative)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179998)

It's illegal to drive even at 30km/h without a license...

Re:Benchmarks (0, Flamebait)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180250)

Congratz, you just bought a car and ran it at 30km/h.

Get a driver license and do a 100km/h please

Have you considered that the parent might also dual boot into windows? Notice the gp states "I don't play games on linux much." (emphasis mine)

From what I've seen the nvidia drivers on linux can be pretty abysmal and even just getting compiz working is a huge step forward, especially for open source, reverse engineered drivers.

If you want to be a douche bag, at least read the parent's comment before being so quick to fire such a moronic reply. Is that all you can bring to the table? An insult? Because they stated that their graphics driver served their very limited needs? To use your fucking totally shitty analogy: If you are only ever city driving, you only really need to do 30 km/h anyways. Most people's cars will go well over 100. You are totally right. They are wasting all of that vast, untapped potential! I can get people not reading the article (fuck I didn't even RTFA and here I am making some comment!), but when you can't even read the whole comment you are taking the time to reply to, then maybe you need to go over to like digg or 4chan or something. Who knows, you might find some people more on your level there, if you know what I mean. You should learn some proper grammar too.

Re:Benchmarks (2, Informative)

serviscope_minor (664417) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177758)

So? The NVidia driver doesn't support xrandr. I know it's only a professional project, but I hardly thing that a company should distribute a driver which can't even change screen resolution using the standard tools.

Re:Benchmarks (2, Informative)

Mad Merlin (837387) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177898)

The binary blob supports xrandr, but not xrandr 1.2. xrandr 1.2 adds a lot of nifty things like on the fly display rotation, but I can't say I've ever actually used any of them.

Re:Benchmarks (1)

lougarou (34028) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178094)

# wtf? with the binary blob:
here$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf
Section "Device"
        Identifier "nVidia Corporation GeForce 8600 GTS rev 161"
        Driver "nvidia"
        BusID "PCI:1:0:0"
                Option "RandRRotation" "on"
EndSection
here$ xrandr -o 1
(turns his head to the right)

Re:Benchmarks (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178038)

I use xrandr to change the resolution of my GTS 250 all the time.

Re:Benchmarks (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178890)

So? The NVidia driver doesn't support xrandr.

False. It doesn't support KMS (Kernel Mode Setting) so you have to set the video mode after the kernel has posted. Meaning you don't get a seamless boot display, boo hoo. I have a GTS 240 which AFAIK is not supported by any driver (that may have changed in the last five weeks, where I've not been at that computer, because I've not been in that country) and xrandr works fine on it with the driver I'm using.

Now on the other hand, xrandr isn't working on my EEE 701 with Jolicloud Linux (aka a somewhat fucked-over Ubuntu Jaunty) with intel GMA 950 graphics. But you can get mode setting with the current intel driver, so I guess I'm going to reload this machine when I get home.

Re:Benchmarks (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180816)

xrandr works fine on it with the driver I'm using.

False. You can't use xrandr to enable/disable/setup multiple screens, so it does not work fine.

Re:Benchmarks (0, Redundant)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179276)

I know your not a professional, but i hardly thing you should be making this post without checking your facts.

Re:Benchmarks (3, Insightful)

Mad Merlin (837387) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177846)

Would you prefer 0 fps?

I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (4, Interesting)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178516)

Remember that not everyone has an "OSS at any cost!" mentality. Some people use Linux for pragmatic reasons, not for ideological ones.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (5, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178570)

Then they are welcome to continue using whatever they want. But fuck anyone who thinks they have the right to determine if someone's work is a waste of time or not.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31178766)

Parent post was a waste of time. That time could have been better spent on something else. Dang - this post is a waste of time too...

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (-1, Flamebait)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178796)

Ok then:

Bush’s work was a waste of time.

Go a head, try to fuck me. ;)

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31178974)

It wasn't a waste of time from the military industrial complex's point of view.... or the religious right's point of view... or any number of special interests' points of view. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't a waste of time from _his_ point of view.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (3, Funny)

MostAwesomeDude (980382) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179904)

Bush is definitely a waste of time. One of the worst bands I've ever heard.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31180036)

That song about cigarettes was pretty good...

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180282)

I don't fuck whores as a general rule. Nothing personal.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (1, Troll)

oatworm (969674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178960)

ut fuck anyone who thinks they have the right to determine if someone's work is a waste of time or not.

People determine that all the time. It's why some people get hired and some people get fired. It's why some people shop at Walmart and others don't. It's why some people buy Toyotas and others ride the bus... and so on. With that in mind, I don't recommend fucking everyone that participates in a market economy - you just don't know where some of them have been.

As for the whole Nouveau vs. closed source blob situation, I think Nouveau is a decent starting option for a distribution since it's something they have some control over. As others have pointed out, those that need official Nvidia drivers know where to look.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (1)

armanox (826486) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179610)

which Fedora is unable to distribute.

Re:I think he'd prefer the binary nVidia driver (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31179614)

In some situations you aren't *allowed* to run proprietary software. This isn't Linux/OSS fanboyism but mere reality: the only way you can keep 100% control of what your system does is by using 100% open source software, or closed software you have the sources at disposal (and can rebuild it at any moment).

A better question (2, Interesting)

ElusiveJoe (1716808) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177888)

Is it better than using a software 3D stack? Because I have a feeling that nothing is really accelerated.

Re:Benchmarks (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31179372)

Microsoft doesn't ship with any drivers they created with GForce9 cards. Should they stop shipping today, or should they recall (like Toyota) all the software they made and dont' ship again till all the problems are fixed? Why do people assume that microsoft makes all the software they make (instead of getting all their software made by other people). We won't even start to talk about reverse engineering and an utter derth of technical documentation. You reverse something as technical as a whole family of accelerated graphics cards, and then we will poke at you and ask pointed 'what the hell is wrong with you' questions.

Re:Benchmarks (1)

ZosX (517789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180298)

What's up with this thread? The most insightful posts are coming from ACs.

Quick Questions (4, Interesting)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177610)

Suppose I wanted to get into writing drivers -

1) What are the things I'd need to know? Languages, Theory, Techniques

2) What are the things I'd require? Testing environment, IDE if applicable, Development kits, etc

3) Any Reading material? A beginners guide, reference material, that kind of stuff.

Re:Quick Questions (3, Informative)

mrphoton (1349555) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177796)

clearly your post was a joke, but a serious answer to your question would be Linux Device Drivers: http://lwn.net/Kernel/LDD3/ [lwn.net] Understanding the linux kernel: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596000028 [oreilly.com] I found both books fantastic and well worth a read, they will take you from knowing C to developing drivers for the linux kernel.

Re:Quick Questions (2, Informative)

arielCo (995647) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178764)

clearly your post was a joke

Not necessarily. Ever said "when I grow up I wanna..." without a clue as to what it would take? You still have that option as a grownup, with perhaps a better chance of making it since you make your own decisions :)

Re:Quick Questions (5, Funny)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177896)

Copy the Ethernet driver code, and use it as a base.

Seriously, that's what the folks told me before I wrote a device driver for an ATM network adapter.

Don't even look at the Token Ring driver code, I was told.

I could imagine the same holds for writing graphics card device drivers.

That glass of Sake, and a talk from your manager about the Divine Wind will be all that you need to set off about your task.

Oh, and the headband with the red dot.

Re:Quick Questions (2, Funny)

DeadCatX2 (950953) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177956)

Copy the Ethernet driver code, and use it as a base.

Nonono. You're supposed to use the Toaster sample as a base.

Re:Quick Questions - Amiga? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31178332)

I didn't think the 3d graphics accelerator for the Amiga had drivers...

Re:Quick Questions - Amiga? (1)

DeadCatX2 (950953) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178438)

*whoosh*

Toaster is the classic sample code used when learning the Windows Driver Model (WDM). The vast majority of Windows drivers were probably built on top of the Toaster sample. My comment is supposed to be silly because you can't use a WDM in Linux.

Re:Quick Questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31178582)

Let me guess. The naiveté of the quest to program device drivers will lead one to crash and burn with spectacular resaults. Am I right?

Re:Quick Questions (1)

selven (1556643) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178600)

Don't even look at the Tolkien Ring driver code, I was told.

Sage advice...

Re:Quick Questions (1)

naz404 (1282810) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179018)

Now that's what I'm tolkien about!

Re:Quick Questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31179768)

I started out with this:

#include
#include
int main(void)
{
printf("Hello World\n");
}

But, you know, go with that red dot thing if it works for you. Come back and tell us how it worked out for you.....oh wait!

Re:Quick Questions (1)

Ruie (30480) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179284)

Writing graphics card drivers is a way to get closer to the hardware. They have many interesting gadgets (like PLLs) that give a taste of interfacing with a real world.

For 3d drivers, I recommend reading a book on OpenGL, downloading Noveau code and reading it. Lurk on the mailing list for a few weeks and then ask developers for a simple task to help with. Test with your applications and report bugs with as much information as possible. Try fixing the bugs yourself.

mod 0p (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31177780)

wo8't vote in Love of two is Usenet is roughly windows, SUN or chosen, whatever only way to go:

Re:mod 0p (2, Funny)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178586)

Friends don't let friends release bots drunk.

Wow, it's like the infancy of civilization. (1, Funny)

Singularity42 (1658297) | more than 3 years ago | (#31177864)

I remember at Intel those silly locked up books detailing the trade secrets. We have constrained bits flying through constrained hardware to make a game. Anyone looking in from the outside will wonder what game we are all playing for this state of affairs!

I don't think we'll get either religion or IP out of the way before the Singularity hits anyway.

Re:Wow, it's like the infancy of civilization. (1)

BitHive (578094) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178284)

hahahah the singularity hahahahahahha

Hurray! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31178028)

Now those of us who still have a fetish for pixelated porn from the dial-up ages can watch pixelated porn in 3D!

You game on Fedora? (1)

hatemonger (1671340) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178234)

As a PC owner with a polarized projector setup, I'm mush more interested in ATI's Catalyst 10.3 coming out in March that will have 3D support in the stereoscopic sense. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/catalyst-eyefinity-radeon,2559-2.html [tomshardware.com] (Yes, I know it's offtopic. It still makes me giddy and I don't have anyone else to tell.)

Re:You game on Fedora? (1)

pklinken (773410) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178900)

On that note, I am expecting my new 23" IPS screen to be delivered tomorrow.
It will hopefully be an improvement over my current 17" CRT.
(Yes, I know it's offtopic, but it makes me giddy and i also don't have anyone else to tell.)

I know it doesn't fit right but... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31178346)

...what the f&(£ is wrong with the one that selected the quotes to be put at the end of the page?

"It's today!" said Piglet. "My favorite day," said Pooh.

Oh god. Captcha: forest. FML. I think I'm gonna go drown myself in a pot of honey. Thx CowboyNeal.

What? (0)

uvajed_ekil (914487) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178386)

The performance is far from being on the same stage as Nvidia's official Unix driver.

Excuse me for not being an expert on drivers for hardware I don't own, but does this mean the new driver is better than the official driver, or not nearly as good? If it is not "on the same stage," meaning not nearly as good, why is Red Hat using it, and why is this news? Do some people really use markedly inferior software simply because it is open source, even if a better competitor is available at no cost? This seems silly to me. I use linux because it works perfectly well for me. If it were a pile of crap in comparison to Windows, I'd use Windows (I can get that for free too, so there is no effective cost difference), even though I have a casual dislike for Microsoft. (please no Macintosh osx comments here, I don't care)

Re:What? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#31178430)

Yes, people do and freedom is not seen as silly by all people.

When NVIDIA drops support for these cards people will use this driver or go without.

Re:What? (5, Insightful)

Paradigm_Complex (968558) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178560)

Do some people really use markedly inferior software simply because it is open source, even if a better competitor is available at no cost?

Nvidia's driver may not necessarily be "better," depending on how you define it. Nvidia's driver is clearly better in terms of 3D acceleration, but Nouveau wins in many other areas (largely as an extension of it's F/OSS'ness). There's much less legal worry when distributing it, it doesn't have to be recompiled against the kernel updates, it supports KMS (which is more important than 3D acceleration with many, such as myself), it can be fix/changed/updated without dependence on Nvidia, it's also more likely to have continued support on older hardware - the list gets pretty long. Maybe these things don't matter to you as much as 3D acceleration, but for many they do.

I use linux because it works perfectly well for me.

F/OSS isn't just blind idealism - there's practical benefits which result. I expect at least part of the reason why Linux "works perfectly well" for you is a result of the fact it's F/OSS. This carries over to the video drivers, too.

Re:What? (5, Funny)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178948)

Excuse me for not being an expert on drivers for hardware I don't own,

You're excused.

but does this mean the new driver is better than the official driver, or not nearly as good?

It's not new, it's been around for a while. But it's not nearly as good in most respects; no VDPAU, poor performance.

If it is not "on the same stage," meaning not nearly as good, why is Red Hat using it,

Because it is freely redistributable.

and why is this news?

Because it just happened.

Do some people really use markedly inferior software simply because it is open source, even if a better competitor is available at no cost?

No, some people use markedly inferior software simply because it is Free Software, which is totally and completely different (The OSI's attempts to convince you to the contrary notwithstanding.)

This seems silly to me.

Nobody cares.

I use linux because it works perfectly well for me.

Me too. But nobody cares why either of us use Linux. Well, that's not true. I've put some people on to it. Nobody cares why you use Linux.

If it were a pile of crap in comparison to Windows, I'd use Windows

In many respects, it is, for example if you are a gamer.

even though I have a casual dislike for Microsoft.

So you're wearing slacks?

(please no Macintosh osx comments here, I don't care)

Nobody cares if you care, didn't we cover that?

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31179234)

I imagine it will work as well as all those OTHER "free" accelerated drivers for Linux, meaning the performance will be shite and it will hang up and crash the system frequently (not to mention being severely lacking in features and buggy as hell).

I'm sticking with NVIDIA's code. It's good enough for me and I don't give a shit about dogma. I remember the last great dogmatic "victory" Redhat was waving around called "GNOME". That was a fun crash-fest too. Say, what ever happened to their sycophantic "RMS Linux" distro?

Xbox support? (3, Funny)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31178818)

Does Nouveau support the graphics chip in the Xbox yet? I'd really love to be able to run XBMC on Linux on Xbox rather than running it on the Xbox OS on the Xbox.

Awesome (2, Interesting)

quantaman (517394) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179366)

I'm actually pretty impressed, I didn't expect they'd be this successful getting a development community and a working driver going. I'm curious as to the stability, I noticed there was one issue with the fonts in the review. Personally stability would be the big selling point for me, I've had issues with the proprietary drivers in the past and it would be great if there was a highly dependable open source driver I could count on.

On a related topic does anyone know the state of the open source ATI driver? I saw a phoronix article claiming it was more popular than the proprietary one [phoronix.com] but other than that I don't know what it has for performance or features. It would be interesting to compare since the ATI made the specs available.

Re:Awesome (1)

Yaa 101 (664725) | more than 4 years ago | (#31179972)

It depends on what ATI card you have, recently I bought a motherboard (ASUS M4A78-EM - Phenom II) with an integrated HR3200, I can tell you that all 3 ATI drivers perform bad.
The driver that runs best (better said least bad) on it is the 2D only ATI driver, the RadeonHD driver does not run at all and the FireGL (proprietary) crashes all the time and does not run 3D either.
I had to get my old Nvidea 6600 out of the closet (with which I did not yet try Nouveau), it does run 3D and GL without any trouble and rock solid on Nvidea's proprietary driver.

I hope at some point of course to take that card out again and being able to run proper ATI drivers, but at this point it's still an illusion for me.

The official Nvidia driver crashes my laptop (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 4 years ago | (#31180172)

Soooo, I don't care if the Free driver is slower. I'd be happy if it works and doesn't crash. Presently I'm forced to use the VESA driver.
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