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Now, can someone just sue them for everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31369962)

And they can stop selling anything?

Oh no, we're screwed! (3, Funny)

N3tRunner (164483) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370008)

Because there's no other way to possibly make copies of DVDs now that RealDVD is gone!

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (5, Interesting)

OrwellianLurker (1739950) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370022)

The fact that it is even illegal is absurd. This case is just one depressing example.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (4, Interesting)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370156)

I agree. I have stacks of DVDs that I never watch because it's tricky to open the DVD case (it's in the living room where the kids often stack their toys), find the movie I want to watch, put it in the player and keep track of where the empty case is. Plus, if the kids want to watch a movie, they can't do it themselves. (My 1st grade son is computer/electronics savvy but I'm not letting him handle a DVD by himself just yet.)

Meanwhile, I have a CinemaTube [brite-view.com] hooked up to an external hard drive. I've ripped many of my DVDs onto this hard drive and can now watch them on my TV without needing to load the discs. Technically, I've violated copyright law, but I don't consider this a violation because a) I'm just place/format shifting and b) I'm not sharing these rips out. (Nor am I downloading rips to put on there.)

What I am doing isn't costing the movie industry any "lost sales." In fact, it might increase sales as I'll be more likely to watch DVD movies I buy and not just regard them as wasted cash. So why should it be illegal just because I *might* share the DVD rip on the Internet? Why not call sharing the DVD rip illegal (since that is what they are worried about) and end it at that? (Of course, the answer to these questions is that they want to have the ability later to sell you "digital copies" that will play on "authorized devices" even if they don't offer such copies for sale now.)

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370280)

My 1st grade son is computer/electronics savvy but I'm not letting him handle a DVD by himself just yet.

Then he must not be very "computer/electronics savvy". I swear, parents nowadays are crazy as outhouse rats... When I was in first grade I knew how to mix mom's drinks as well as serving as her DJ. Kids are so much more capable than you think!

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370336)

When I was in first grade I knew how to mix mom's drinks as well as serving as her DJ. Kids are so much more capable than you think!

Not all of us were raised by street savvy strippers.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

Yamata no Orochi (1626135) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370470)

as well as serving as her DJ.

If you know what I mean. *wika wika*

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371050)

Well, the first grader *might* handle the DVD properly if it weren't for two factors:

1) The DVD player is above his reach. He's more likely to bring the entire entertainment center down on him than get the DVD in properly.

2) He has a 2 year old little brother who would be quick enough to snatch the DVD the second his older brother looks away to do who-knows-what with it.

Now when it comes to remote controls, he's a wiz. Too much of one, actually. He figured out how to record shows on our DVR by observing me doing it once and started recording every single show he likes. Needless to say, this filled up our DVR pretty quickly!

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371942)

Handling DVDs properly is not a matter of being "computer savvy". It's a matter of being a klutz.

Wii games and Disney movies aren't so bad because they have their own very nice cases.

Get much beyond that and you end up with DVD cases that seem specifically engineered to scratch disks.

Current tech that is "blessed" by the MPAA isn't really good at handling multi-disk sets like for TV.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (2, Informative)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370312)

What I am doing isn't costing the movie industry any "lost sales."

That's where you are incorrect. Now, before you flame me, consider my same position. In high school I paid good money for a (licensed) MST3K Pod People VHS tape. It has since been watched to shreds. It did not help that I lent it to people in college so their filthy whore VHS players could gunk it up. I had no way to duplicate it digitally but had I done that initially, I would have.

Many years later I have many (licensed) MST3K DVDs. Some from Rhino some from The Shout Factory. My ritual is similar to yours except I play them once in my computer with DVD decrypter and then they are safely shelved (hopefully) never to be played again. Later I use handbrake for a similar setup that you have going on but instead to play them on my XBox over a network.

Now, in the case of Pod People, I have paid to license it twice in a very short amount of time. You may argue it was for quality yet I have no problem with VHS quality (and some DVDs seem to be VHS quality). Should the industry fail to entice you or I with Blu Ray and beyond, our neatly digitally backed up copies will suffice us for quite sometime ... after paying ~$40/set of four DVDs and now being on volume XVI, I guarantee you that I will not be moving from DVD MST3K any time soon. Thank god we have the technology to do this.

Back to the story, DVD Decrypter has been defunct since 2005 (forced to by legal issues) so I'm not getting anymore updates. And it doesn't work on all of the newest big studio name DVDs. K9Copy is alive and well, I believe and Handbrake works well if you don't need an ISO. But the real problem is that once RealDVD goes down, where do you think the attention will go next? Probably towards putting K9Copy and Handbrake with DVD Decrypter.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (2, Informative)

v1 (525388) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370644)

mac the ripper is still available and updated. it copies off the disc to a video_ts folder with the encryption and noops removed. (and region coding if necessary)

Since the transcoding process takes awhile, I usually MTR all the discs in a box at once to hard drive, and queue them all up in handbrake. Let that run 2-3 days on its own with out having to feed it a disc every hour or so and it's done. (requires a fair chunk of free HD space for all those video_ts folders)

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (2)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370980)

The industry has no real chance of wooing me with Blu Ray anytime soon. I don't even have an HD TV set in my house. The way I see it, money is tight and my TVs work fine. Do they show resolution as good as HD TVs? No, but it is good enough for my purposes. Eventually, when those TVs fail, I'll buy an HD TV but only because those seem to be the only ones on the market now.

And even when I do get a HD TV, I'll still use my trusty DVD players. Heck, I'm still using one about 10 years old that has the annoying habit of automatically closing the tray a second after you open it. So you need to open it, hold the tray open, place the DVD in and *then* let it close. But other than that glitch I'm fine with the player's performance so I haven't spent the $30 or so to replace it. And even, way down the road, if I upgrade to Blu Ray, my DVDs should still work on those players just fine.

Basically, the industry has no hope of getting me to pay for Blu Ray titles that I already own in DVD format. Of course, they'd *like* me to pay them again for the "Special Edition" and then the "Blu Ray combo pack" and then the "Ultra Cool Blu Ray Remastered Edition" and then the "Limited Time Collector's Box Set", etc. But I wouldn't buy all those whether or not I had access to DVD ripping. No lost sales here.

Oh and thanks for the Handbrake/K9Copy mentions. I'll have to try those on some of the more stubborn DVDs I have.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (4, Insightful)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370332)

Technically, I've violated copyright law

No, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that, in the U.S. anyway, you haven't violated copyright law, not even technically. Now, if you were to begin distributing those copies it's a different matter.

In fact, it might increase sales as I'll be more likely to watch DVD movies I buy and not just regard them as wasted cash.

Ha .. if these little bloodsuckers could get away selling you a disc that would play exactly once and then self-destruct Mission Impossible-style, believe me they would do it. They want you to consider your media a consumable, not a collectible.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (5, Insightful)

closetpsycho (1175221) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370482)

I'm not a lawyer either, but you're right. He hasn't violated copyright law. He has violated the DMCA's anti-circumvention clause though.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (3, Informative)

butlerm (3112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371148)

If all he did was make a copy of a DVD, I beg to differ. DMCA Section 1201:

(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures. -- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. ...
(c) Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected. -- (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (4, Insightful)

ixidor (996844) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371594)

except, with those 2 at odds, and the riaa/mpaa with buckets more money than you or i,who do you think would survive the court case? it would drag on for years if you could afford that.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371852)

Technically, I've violated copyright law

No, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that, in the U.S. anyway, you haven't violated copyright law, not even technically. Now, if you were to begin distributing those copies it's a different matter.

Nope. While it is Fair Use, Fair Use is an Affirmative Defense. Which is to say you've violated the law, but you have done so in a way that excuses you of liability and culpability.

He has technically violated the law in the same way that somebody who kills somebody in self defense. It's a violation of the law, but not one which can be prosecuted.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (3, Funny)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370334)

I don't consider this a violation because a) I'm just place/format shifting

FILTHY PIRATE!

You should purchase one copy for each medium you want to view the media with! And another when you can't use it through wear and tear! AND AGAIN WHEN THE VIEWING DEVICE BREAKS!

*Wanders off to find more bolivian marching powder / ladies of questionable morality.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371020)

I used to watch hardly any movies and spend hardly anything on buying or renting movies.

Then I started ripping movies I rented and suddenly I was spending well over a hundred a month on renting movies.
Second hand or bargain bin movies? sure why not? the disc quality isn't a big deal since I'm only risking a few euro and once it's ripped it will be as good as any other and as easy to play when I'm bored.

Where before I'd rent out perhaps 1 movie at a time occasionally after I got set up to rip movies I'd rent 3 or 4 a night a few times a week with the attitude of "sure I'll just watch them some other time if I'm busy tonight".

I still haven't actually watched many of them but thanks to "piracy" the entertainment industry is getting far far more money out of me than they ever would have otherwise.

But of course the industry has somehow "lost" lots money due to the change of habits caused by easy access to DVD ripping software.
I might only watch the movie once either way but the potential is there for me to watch the same movies for more than one night and so they've "lost" money.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

JoeMerchant (803320) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371086)

Until you posted this in public, what you did in your own home was your own business - much like people who smoke certain illegal plants, have sex out of wedlock, etc. All those things are illegal, but your right to privacy trumps any need to investigate.

Now, if you start sharing some of those illegal plants, or giving away copies of your recordings, or doing other things publicly, (even bragging about doing them publicly can be a problem), then you're inviting the man in your door. People are so amazed about how stupid regular drug users can be, calling the cops to come inside the house with a bong on the counter or whatever - but if you're posting your illegal activities on the internet, you're inviting the exact same kind of trouble - regardless of how easy it is to do, how reasonable it is to do, or how many other people are doing it, illegal = prosecutable, if anyone cares enough to follow through.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (3, Insightful)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371760)

In no location in the US is sex out of wedlock illegal.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371930)

Technically speaking, I have the right to rip my own DVDs. I just don't have the right to have the tools to rip my own DVDs. (Is that insanely confusing? Yes, yes it is.) As far as being public about it, I don't go around bragging about it to tons of people (these Slashdot posts notwithstanding). Notice I didn't even say what tools I used because I don't want anyone claiming that I'm "incenting people to break copyright" or some such by advertising tools to rip DVDs.

I just said what I do and I'm not sharing my rips at all, no matter how much people beg. Not that they would, mind you. I'm sure that the rips that I'm taking my time to make have already been done a dozen or more times and are being shared out by a hundred people on P2P networks. On the MPAA radar, I'm sure "guy who rips DVDs he's bought and then keeps them to himself" is way lower than "guy who rips DVDs and then posts them to P2P networks" or "guy who downloads rips from P2P networks and then shares them back out." I'm probably even lower than "guy who leeches rips from P2P networks, refusing to share them back out."

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

omglolbah (731566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371592)

The problem is that by "movie studio" or "distributor" standards you -are- causing them lost sales.

They want you to buy a digital copy for your CinemaTube. A digital copy that costs them almost nothing to make but would cost you about the same as a DVD.

That is one of the reasons they want to ban any kind of ripping. They want us all to buy the content twice or more.

Fuck em is all I can say to that. Physical media is going to die eventually and when it does I hope we have some sort of solution or market collapse....

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371818)

True. Although were DVD ripping not an option, I'd have just put up with the DVDs I had already bought, wouldn't buy many more DVDs and would rely more on Netflix (both mail and online) as well as my local library's DVD collection. I actually won the CinemaTube so if it just sat there unused it wouldn't have cost me anything. Still, the ability to put my entire DVD collection on an external hard drive and play it on my TV is exactly what I've been looking for for years.

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (2, Insightful)

omglolbah (731566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371874)

When I buy DVDs (which I do more than I should..) the only time the disc is ever touched is when I rip it to drive.

I have a media server with 2.7TB of drive space and I hate fiddling with discs. I have scripts set up to rip and convert the movie to a high quality file with a more decent filesize than raw DVD.

Using this setup I have a whole lot more flexibility when it comes to what I want to watch when... Oh and there is no annoying as hell buzzing from the dvdrom....

The movie industry can, as so eloquently said by the bartender in "Boondock Saints":

  "Why dont you make like a tree and get the fuck out of here".

Re:Oh no, we're screwed! (1)

f0rk (1328921) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370662)

Well if you weren't to busy trying to be clever for a first post, you would have understood that its not about JUST RealDVD, but rather the fact that the hollywood studios managed to kill RealDVD on potential piracy grounds.

So that's ... (2, Informative)

sfritsche (154480) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370030)

... one less competitor for SlySoft [slysoft.com] . They must be partying on Antiqua.

Re:So that's ... (1)

aplusjimages (939458) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370196)

SlySoft is screwed because RealNetwork isn't going to "sell" RealDVD anymore, they will most likely give it away for free.

Re:So that's ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370264)

The last time real gave away something free of charge it came with a load of spyware (in fact it was the begining of the the wave of crap we're can see today)

Re:So that's ... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370350)

The last time real gave away something free of charge it came with a load of spyware (in fact it was the begining of the the wave of crap we're can see today)

Yes. I wouldn't install anything from that schlock outfit, free or otherwise.

Re:So that's ... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370382)

SlySoft is screwed because RealNetwork isn't going to "sell" RealDVD anymore, they will most likely give it away for free.

I doubt it matters. Slysoft's stuff is truly slick, and I don't think that Real offers anything like AnyDVD's shim driver for Windows.

Re:So that's ... (1)

ixidor (996844) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371644)

the point was, that if realDVD goes away, not the mpaa will be looking for the next target with $$, ie. anydvd.

Re:So that's ... (1)

Rude Turnip (49495) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370426)

I'd also like to recommend DVDFab Platinum. It's very easy to use for the less tech-savvy and is kept up-to-date on a fairly consistent basis. You can do bit for bit copies, compress DVDs or convert the movie to a variety of file formats, with presets for AppleTV, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS, etc.

Re:So that's ... (1)

Corson (746347) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371416)

DVDfab - thumbs up!

Re:So that's ... (1)

ixidor (996844) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371668)

i usually try decrypter first then fab. i can only remember 1 or 2 disk out of thousands that i haven't been able to enjoy that way.

Quick! (1)

bunkymag (1567407) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370052)

Someone start legal proceedings based on the untold damage and mental anguish caused to date by Realplayer!

Stop selling could also mean... (2, Interesting)

Advocadus Diaboli (323784) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370090)

...giving them away for free of charge. :-) SCNR

Please, no! (5, Funny)

bcmm (768152) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370102)

Please Slashdot, don't make me decide whether I hate Hollywood or RealNetworks more!

Re:Please, no! (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370170)

You should really all be a little bit concerned. Most of you reading slashdot are ahead of the tech curve/average and you'll find a way to backup your DVD or acquire it by other means. The DMCA is way out of control and the fact that it is legal to make a copy of your DVD, but illegal to circumvent any copy protection scheme....well, it just doesn't make sense. That's like saying you are allowed to go swimming, but not allowed to get wet. We really should all get together and start to voice our displeasure to our elected representatives. I've seen the DMCA used to squash competitors for things like printer cartridges and garage door openers. It needs to be radically revised or corporations are going to continue to abuse it.

Re:Please, no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370504)

You're allowed to take a pound of flesh, but may not shed a drop of blood.

Re:Please, no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371664)

I'm already ahead of the curve because I refuse to buy defective products that do not allow me to create a proper backup. Sorry Hollywood but I'll continue using the pirated versions that I know are clean of your crap so I can fast forward through the ads/trailers and other garbage. Of course I also appreciate the price which is more in line with what I can afford in today's economy (I do have a family to feed) so my disposable income is quite limited.

Re:Please, no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371928)

It needs to be radically revised [...]

Don't worry, that's what ACTA is for.

[...] or corporations are going to continue to abuse it.

.. oh, wait.

Re:Please, no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370220)

Please Slashdot, don't make me decide whether I hate Hollywood or RealNetworks more!

How about you grow up and use rational analysis. This is not football. No need to "pick side" and hate "the other side".

Re:Please, no! (1)

Yamata no Orochi (1626135) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370528)

There's not really any reason to pick sides and hate the other side in football, either, people are just generally retarded.

Most people select the team they like purely arbitrarily anyway.

Re:Please, no! (1)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370884)

Well, in Football the teams are competing against each other. It does actually make perfect sense to pick one team over an other.

Re:Please, no! (1)

Yamata no Orochi (1626135) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371058)

And hate the other side? Why? It's just a game. A game you're not even participating in.

Re:Please, no! (1)

Unoti (731964) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371764)

My hatred for RealNetworks defies rational analysis. And with good reason: they fried my machines really hardcore with some of their intrusive can't-remove-this crap way back when, and I never got over the emotional anger. They've cleaned up their ways since then, so I hear. And they were a big part of what inspired me years ago to set myself up to where I can reformat a machine without much effort and zero loss, so some good has come out of it.

I do share some of GP's hatred for Real, and it was well earned and fairly rational. My rational analysis is: they can bite me. I know some of the people from Real though, and they're awesome. Just saying I can't forgive rea networks for some things they did to my pc's in the 90's, or that I let them do when I wanted to play some sound and video and installed their stuff.

Re:Please, no! (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370418)

There's no point in hating RealNetworks, just use a competetitor. Hollywood, otoh, is a cartel that works in lockstep -- a virtual multicompany monopoly. You should hate them until there are more people doing "Star Wreck" type endeavors.

There's no reason to hate the RIAA, pity the poor fools instead. Their lunch is being eaten by the indies, and they blame "pirates" for their coming demise, trying to kill the indies' source of getting their music heard in the name of "piracy". All they're doing is hastening their own demise.

Corporate movie making is next. It won't be long before anybody with talent can make just as good or better movie than Hollywood in their PC, just as anybody with talent no longer needs a major record label to record and distribute music now.

Cheer the death of the dinasaurs. Say "no" to DRM and other foolish, self-defeating shenanigans.

Re:Please, no! (2, Insightful)

bcmm (768152) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370684)

There's no point in hating RealNetworks, just use a competetitor

I remember when all online video was RealVideo.

Re:Please, no! (2, Insightful)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#31372338)

So do I, and they sucked even worse then than they do now. Competetion is good for the consumers!

Hollywood has competitors too (1)

Mateo_LeFou (859634) | more than 4 years ago | (#31372060)

They're called "everything else you could do with your time other than reward philistine pig-headed execs who crank out noncreative garbage"
I'm just sayin'

I can't believe this ... (2, Insightful)

Van Cutter Romney (973766) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370122)

I have to agree with Freedomworks [freedomworks.org] (the people who brought you teabaggers) on this. Foes can sometimes turn into friends while fighting a common enenmy.

Re:I can't believe this ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370160)

Actually, Anderson Cooper brought you "teabaggers," and he should know

Re:I can't believe this ... (4, Insightful)

garg0yle (208225) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370328)

Rule 29 [schlockmercenary.com] applies here:

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less.

dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (3, Funny)

migloo (671559) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370148)

Sue me now!

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

allcar (1111567) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370192)

Careful.Hollywood will try to ban dd, next.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (3, Insightful)

loutr (626763) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370230)

I wasn't aware dd implemented DeCSS.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370786)

I'm not totally sure, but wouldn't this create an iso file that happened to still be 'protected' by CSS? It's just pulling bits off the disc and putting them in a file, no need for DeCSS.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

loutr (626763) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370868)

As I say a couple of posts below, the purpose of CSS is to prevent you from copying the disk. If a simple dd invocation could allow you to copy the DVD and have it play on standard DVD players (which can decrypt CSS), there is no way it would have been chosen as the standard copy protection scheme. See TheThiefMaster's post [slashdot.org] below, I think he's right about how CSS works.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371222)

Where exactly on the disc is normally unreadable, and how does it suddenly gain the ability to read the disc there? Is it controlled by the firmware of the drive? Is there anything really preventing dd from accessing those segments?

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (3, Interesting)

greed (112493) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371530)

Other way around; the key zone on the disc is readable by any player. But on consumer writable media, it is pre-burned with zeros.

It is also part of the "meta information"; you can't see it with normal I/O commands like 'dd'. You'd have to have a device driver that implements a DVD-specific ioctl to retrieve the keys.

Since .iso is a headerless format, you'd need a lookaside file to contain the metadata needed to make a virtual drive that lets you mount an encrypted .iso. Or use an image file format that supports metadata.

Of course, the people writing the sort of stuff aren't trying to stay within the letter of a law that either (a) does not apply in their country or (b) they don't like, no-one bothers. AFAIK and all that.

In fact, implementing such a system may expose you to PATENT claims in the U.S.!

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371996)

It is also part of the "meta information"; you can't see it with normal I/O commands like 'dd'. You'd have to have a device driver that implements a DVD-specific ioctl to retrieve the keys.

Are you sure about this? Because I can create a disk image with dd on a Mac, mount it, and then play it back with Apple's DVD Player. If the CSS information isn't part of the image then where is the DVD player getting it from? If they're cracking the encryption then Apple is violating the license agreement from the DVD consortium.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Late Adopter (1492849) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371718)

As I understand it, there's a part of the disc that drives don't present with standard block-device access commands. A licensed program handshakes directly with the device to receive the keys stored in that area.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31372194)

Normally the disks are completely readable. The content is encrypted, but they can be read/copied/whatever. If you want DVD player assisted playback, then the region code comes into play.

the problem is that DD will try to copy all of the sectors, and some recent DVDs have purposely made bad sectors, etc. They put them in places where the video isn't stored, so that a normal DVD player (or DVD player program) will work fine.

If you want to rip an "un-rippable" DVD, try to use mplayer with the stream output option, or similar in VLC. It works fine, but it will make a huge MPEG stream file that there aren't many other utilities to process.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31372090)

No, CSS isn't to prevent you from copying the disk at all. You can quite easily copy a CSS protected disk, and the copy will still be encrypted of course, but it will play fine. (and Mplayer, VLC, etc. will break CSS in real time and play from an encrypted VOB/ISO/Physical Disc).

The only reason some DVDs are hard to rip recently is because they have some *other* protection that *does* prevent you from copying them easily. Usually they have the sectors set up in an odd way, so that if you try to play the video straight through it works, but if you try to copy the whole disk instead, it will result in like 9000 gigabytes of data. (i.e. they have a lot of extra sectors listed on files that aren't used or something like that).

CSS isn't copy protection, it's *use* protection. You can't convert the video into another format if it's CSS encrypted. You can't make a PSP or iPod version, f.e., if you can't decrypt it. You also can't make a small DivX or whatever to send on p2p networks. (Of course you could just upload the whole CSSed ISO, which anyone can play...)

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Polarina (1389203) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370234)

dd is an impractical tool for ripping many copy-protected DVDs as the discs have many bad sectors intentionally put on them that will make the ISO unusable and the ripping process taking a very long time.

I wouldn't expect any luck using dd for ripping copy-protected discs.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

schon (31600) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370834)

Agreed.

I hardly use dd anymore - now I use

mplayer -aid 128 -dumpstream -dumpfile 'mymovie.vob' dvdnav://${title}

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (2, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370246)

They might be able to get you on copyright claims; but nothing DMCA related, since the DVD image you create will still have CSS fully intact(analogous to the old days, pre deCSS, where pirates simply produced cloned disks, which worked just fine because all consumer DVD players were designed to work with encrypted disks).

Still a useful technique in some cases. Because there is no re-encoding done, the CPU load of doing a rip that way(on any machine not stuck in PIO) is virtually nil, and the speed is limited only by the weakest link of your storage system(typically the DVD drive itself). VLC, or other civilized media players, will treat the .iso exactly as though it were the original DVD. If you do need the additional compression, handbrake will accept the .iso as an input. Very handy if you want to process multiple DVDs without being there to swap disks between encoding sessions. Do the .iso dumps first, which is quite fast because it is computationally cheap, get all the disk swapping over with, then queue up the slow and computationally expensive encoding jobs to happen from the disk images while you go and do something else.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

satoshi1 (794000) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370362)

I did not know that it would keep the CSS intact and still be a fully usable ISO. I have every reason to use this method. I don't care about sharing. I don't need separate files or anything, just the iso. Mount it and play it.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370580)

With the better behaved media players(and even a surprising number of the standalone embedded media-player boxes for sale these days) you don't even need to mount. Just point at the .iso and, a few momenents later, up pops the DVD menu, exactly as if the disk had just been inserted.

If your media player of choice doesn't play that way, or you just feel like it, there is of course nothing stopping you from mounting the image and playing from the resulting virtual drive.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

loutr (626763) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370578)

Do you have any source to back up these claims ? They seem highly dubious to me. If you can copy the DVD to your HD this way, what would stop you from burning the ISO to a DVD-R ?And in this case, what would be the point of CSS if you could copy the disk using a standard unix command and an ISO-burning utility ?

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370872)

Someone correct me if I am wrong here...

A DVDR (whatever type + - +/- r rw etc...) they put gunk in the out zone where the real decode keys are held. Also they are slightly different size so you can not just copy it.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370944)

Because DVD burners refuse to burn working CSS disks. Although I would expect that cheap non-branded burners should be able to do it regardless of any licensing conditions to the contrary, just like cheap non-branded DVD players can ignore region coding with the right "cheat codes".

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Late Adopter (1492849) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371884)

It works fine for any player that breaks CSS, like VLC. But for a licensed player you need the disc keys, which don't get ripped by dd. So burning to a DVD-R becomes a little pointless unless you decrypt it first.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31372048)

It will work, but you need to by authoring DVD-R's. Unlike the consumer DVD-Rs, these don't have the CSS region pre-burnt. They are intended for producing masters for sending off for duplication. They are also a lot more expensive than the consumer ones. Some burners may also refuse to write the CSS track.

I copied DVDs to my hard drive a lot with my old PowerBook using this technique. The drive generated a lot of heat, so watching them from disk images was a lot more convenient. Apple's DVD Player app would happily play back the images, as would VLC.

CSS prevents you from copying DVDs, it doesn't prevent you from copying movies.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (4, Funny)

funkatron (912521) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370300)

Hollywood cant sue you. You are a human and are therefore unrecognised as any form of legal entity.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

Truekaiser (724672) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370484)

oh he is a legal entity, but just like george orwel's animal farm where two legs went from 'bad' to 'better'. the mpaa/riaa has now legally 'more free' speech then he does, and thus has become a 'better' legal entity then a normal person.

Re:dd if=/dev/dvd of=dvd.iso (1)

bluewolfcub (1681832) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371906)

...has become a 'better' legal entity then a normal person

Well if it became a normal person after becoming a "better legal entity" then it's all good eh...

Shit! (5, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370162)

Now I'll have to go back to using Handbrake again, and miss out on RealDVD's actually-pretty-onerous-and-studio-friendly DRM features. I'm not sure how I'll manage using a free program that produces fully unencumbered versions after using quality commercial software from a trusted name like Real.

Seriously, though, what did they hope to accomplish by slapping Real down? Our Antiguan buddies at Slysoft are still up to their nefarious tricks, so it isn't as though smacking Real did much damage to the market for commercial DVD ripping products; and libdvdcss, VLC, et al. are still doing their thing and not at all hard to find on the OSS side.

So far as I can see, the moral of the story here is that if you try to offer a product that pleases customers while playing nice with studios(as Real did by offering ripping; but imposing restrictions on the rips) the studios will gut you and spit on your corpse; but if you just brazenly violate the restrictions, they'll be powerless to stop you. I'm pretty sure that that isn't the message that they really want to send.

Re:Shit! (3, Insightful)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370340)

Easy to use as it is, Handbrake is still a 'geek market' product. Hollywood knows we're already lost causes in the PR battle, that we know our fair use rights better than most, and that for every OSS program they try to shut down two more will spring up in its place. Not only that, Handbrake has no US presence (AFAIK) and even if it did I can see the EFF (who are experts in precisely this kind of field, and who fight on principle rather than just profit) stepping up to the plate if they did get sued, leading to a potentially messy and drawn out case and PR war for little to no benefit.

RealNetworks, on the other hand, has some (although probably small) measure of brand recognition among the general public. They care about profit and are quite happy to throw the case to the other side if it looks like it'll be the cheapest option. Net result: the entertainment industry gets to put out headlines saying "American company told to stop selling all that nasty illegal DVD copying software", and the general public takes home the message that "DVD copying is illegal". Seems like a fairly deft PR move to me, at least within the context of the Hollywood studio mindset.

Re:Shit! (1)

Winckle (870180) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370438)

On Mac at least it's hardly geeky at all. I showed my Dad how to use it and he rips things just fine using the pre-sets.

Re:Shit! (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#31372262)

Lately, certain people seem intent on redefining what "geeky" is.

Running a program and clicking on a few buttons is not "geeky" by any stretch of the imagination.

Having custom mencoder or ffmpeg commands you put in your own bash script is geeky.

Re:Shit! (1)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371060)

>Easy to use as it is, Handbrake is still a 'geek market' product.

Well, its like VLC. Its non-commercial and hosted all over the world. RealDVD is a commercial product created by an American company. I think eventually all OSS projects that deal with video will be hosted in France.

Re:Shit! (3, Interesting)

celtic_hackr (579828) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371552)

I know plenty of barely literate Windows users using Windows ripping tools, with equal ease as geeks with their geeky ones. The Studios have already lost, because they have the same faulty perception as you do. It's not just geeks; it's 16 year old cheerleaders, and 50 year business owners, and the old lady down the street. I even know a few old ladies running Linux desktops (why because when you're retired you have limited income, and Linux is God Damn cheap). It's all over except the shouting, but the Studios are too busy shouting to hear the silence from the other side.

I almost feel sorry for them.

off what is this hey mann (0, Troll)

gencgel (1760474) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370728)

kiisel baar siteleri [gencgelisim.net] kiisel geliim [gencgelisim.net] gençlik siteleri [gencgelisim.net] ilk öretim [gencgelisim.net] kiisel geliim [gencgelisim.net] genç geliim [gencgelisim.net]

Re:off what is this hey mann (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371006)

Someone please mod this jackhole into oblivion

Re:Shit! (1)

JoeMerchant (803320) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371142)

4.5 million reasons - Real had the audacity to operate inside a jurisdiction that allows looting of profits in exchange for violations of the copyright law, their choice, their loss. I'm curious how the whole picture with Real's finances looks, was $4.5M just a share of their profits, or is it a smackdown bankruptcy verdict that will never get paid in full?

Remember fair use? (1)

cbope (130292) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370208)

Yet another trampling of fair use rights in the US. How long does the entertainment industry continue to get away with this? Seems like nobody can (will?) stop them doing anything they want.

What is the tehnical issue here? (1)

frovingslosh (582462) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370284)

I understand that DVDs include encryption, so programs like DeCSS are needed to extract watchable video from a DVD. But what is the technical problem keeping people from just copying DVDs to writable media to make copies? Is there some technical issue about the formatting of a video DVD that keeps normal copying software from copying DVDs on a block by block basis? And if there is, how did Real get past any limitations of consumer grade writers?

Re:What is the tehnical issue here? (4, Informative)

TheThiefMaster (992038) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370384)

It's simple, the CSS key is stored in normally unreadable/unwritable areas of the disk, so a straight copy misses the key and it won't play. However, if you decrypt it and burn the decrypted version to a new disk, it will play fine.

Does anyone know... (1)

hesaigo999ca (786966) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370292)

Does anyone know that has RealDVD, if this software which has stopped being sold or maintained since 2008/9 still works
with todays new dvds (and encryptions). The reason why I ask, is if the way it copies is what is the most dangerous about this software
because no matter how you encrypt it the dvd will always be able to be copied, then I gotta get me one of those....

Re:Does anyone know... (1)

fredjh (1602699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370942)

If they changed the encryption, then new discs wouldn't play on older players... and by "older," we'd be talking about only a year or two old.

So... no, I don't think that's a problem.

Hollywood's doomed crusade continues (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31370408)

When is someone going to pull the Handbrake [handbrake.fr] on this.

FOSS will have to be made illegal to this to work, which it won't.

Apple Disk Utility app (2, Interesting)

zerosomething (1353609) | more than 4 years ago | (#31370558)

For years OS X users have been duplication CDs and DVDs using Disk Utility on their Macs. Just make a disk image of the item then burn that disk image to a CD-R or DVD-R. You might have issues with DL disks. +R media works on some/many system too. Guess this means Apple will get sued next.

Re:Apple Disk Utility app (1)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371580)

Apple's disk utility doesn't circumvent the Content Scramble System [wikipedia.org] on commercial DVDs, so if you make a straight copy it won't play- you need to remove the CSS to have a working image that you can use on the PC or burn to a new DVD.

That is why Real got sued.

Re:Apple Disk Utility app (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31372348)

Except that CSS is so broken that players like VLC and Mplayer can figure out the key remove it real-time, so your "broken" ISO will work just fine.

Fuck you MPAA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31371002)

How many Hulk, Spiderman, Superman, A-Team, Ghostbusters remakes will dumbasses allow them to make? I'm out! I quit. No more of my money will be paid in support of unfunny, unoriginal content.

Why people pirate DVDs (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31371758)

Geek.com has a somewhat-related article up today about why people pirate DVDs: http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/why-people-pirate-movies-20100219/ [geek.com]

Now I've never pirated a DVD* and wouldn't recommend it, but I sympathize with the reasoning. Those preview screens are awful. Especially the unskippable ones on Sesame Street DVDs that tell you how much good money given to Sesame Workshop does. Hello? I bought the DVD and my kid just wants to see Ernie, Grover and crew. He doesn't care that "kids around the world are counting." At least let me hit "Menu" to skip by your commercial and get to the show!

* Full disclosure: I have ripped my own DVDs but don't share them out nor do I download rips others have made.

Re:Why people pirate DVDs (1)

ravenscar (1662985) | more than 4 years ago | (#31372480)

Sadly, I know just what you are talking about when you reference the Sesame Workshop ads. What has become of my life?
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