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PayPal Freezes Cryptome's Account

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the gov-com-business-model dept.

Censorship 253

grimwell sends in the news that after Cryptome's little run-in with Microsoft and NetSol, the activist site has now had its funds frozen by PayPal. Cryptome founder John Young notes, "Google lists thousands of instances of this asymmetrical high-handedness." "We have reviewed your PayPal Account, and due to the excessive risk involved, we would like to begin parting ways in a manner that is least disruptive to your business."

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253 comments

What's a Paypal? (5, Interesting)

symbolic (11752) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382014)

I have, and will continue to, refuse to conduct business with online entities that do not support a non-Paypal option. I have never used Paypal, and I don't anticipate that this will change.

Re:What's a Paypal? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31382710)

If this were a federally-regulated bank they would not be able to do this.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

DarkKnightRadick (268025) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382776)

I for one support PayPal's decision, not because I don't like Cryptome, but because they are a private business making a decision that the feel suits them best.

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31382878)

Why you need to support, or even express your support?
True any private business can screw over its consumer, but why support this decission? Unless you are affilied with paypal there is no purpose. If you are, you should have declare it.

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Insightful)

DarkKnightRadick (268025) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382954)

I have no affiliation with PayPal.

I should have been clearer. I support their right to make this decision, and, if they were a federally regulated bank, they could have done the exact same thing. Read the info on Cryptome's site.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383346)

I could disagree with you at length, but I find it easier to say

FUCK YOU.

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Insightful)

Toonol (1057698) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383562)

A similar question can be asked about those people posting critical comments of paypal.

A similar question can be asked about the 98% of slashdot comments that consist of people's opinions who don't have a direct involvement with the subject. Sometimes people simply like to converse about a subject.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

earls (1367951) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382972)

I support your stance for being radical (in this environment) and honestly idealist.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

pitchpipe (708843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383116)

I for one support PayPal's decision, not because I don't like Cryptome, but because they are a private business making a decision that the feel suits them best.

It's weird that you agree with a decision by a corporation just because it is a private entity. If they decided to bring a bulldozer over to your house and demolish it would you support that because "they are a private business making a decision that the feel suits them best"?

Re:What's a Paypal? (4, Insightful)

earls (1367951) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383144)

Hey, let's play a game called "make up hypothetical situations to support our arguments." In this corner they're bulldozering our house. In the opposite corner they're buying us a mansion. WHO WILL WIN!?!

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Insightful)

Johann Lau (1040920) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383436)

"bulldozering our house"

sometimes happens.

"buying us a mansion"

never happens.

"WHO WILL WIN!?!"

bulldozering our house.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383176)

There is supposed to be a car in bad analogies here, it's a rule.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Insightful)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383592)

That is ridiculous. Destroying private property is illegal, while Refusing to service someone is not. I don't know how you got modded Insightful.

Re:What's a Paypal? (4, Insightful)

Dragonslicer (991472) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383686)

That is ridiculous. Destroying private property is illegal, while Refusing to service someone is not. I don't know how you got modded Insightful.

For the sake of this argument, let's take the statement that Paypal froze their funds as being true (I know, this is Slashdot, where the summary is usually wrong). Refusing to give someone money that is rightfully theirs could be considered the equivalent of destroying their property. Giving them the money currently in their account and then refusing to accept any more payments is different from keeping money that was intended as a payment to them, not a payment to Paypal.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383908)

Refusing to give someone money that is rightfully theirs could be considered the equivalent of destroying their property.

Umm... no. (*) The equivalent of wrongfully withholding someone's property, or- at a push- stealing it? Possibly, yeah.

The equivalent of actually destroying it? Not really. Not unless they run off and spend it on hookers and blow and don't have any other cash to pay it back with, otherwise... that's a bit silly.

(*) Well, I guess one has the right to "consider [anything] the equivalent" of anything else, but then you could say that dancing a jig to the music of Milli Vanilli was the "equivalent of destroying their property". It still doesn't bear scrutiny.

Re:What's a Paypal? (5, Insightful)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383172)

Paypal may be able to refuse to do business with whomever they like but so do we. Every time Paypal pulls a stunt like this, we as private individuals have a right to call them on it.

Re:What's a Paypal? (-1, Flamebait)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383178)

I for one support PayPal's decision, not because I don't like Cryptome, but because they are a private business making a decision that the feel suits them best.

Serial abusers require people like you - weak people who identify with the powerful. Every bully has a few of these in his crew.

You don't support PayPal's decision because "they are a private business" but because you wish you had the power to push people around too, and standing behind bullies cheering them on is the closest you will ever come, "DarkKnightRadick".

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383214)

Where's the +1, flamebait mod?

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383450)

Parent is neither troll nor flamebait, it's informative. Unfortunately since the target it hits so well is practically an epidemic in the USA (and even more so on /.), it gets modded down. Stupid, stupid humans...

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383774)

Whilst I strongly disagree with both DarkKnightRadick's stance on TFA issue and his(/her?) "reasoning" (I say that an immoral private business DOES deserve moral opposition, but NOT legal opposition, at least not beyond an individual's legal obligations), but using e-psychoanalysis is a fairly stupid thing to do. Firstly, it's an ad hominem attack; in some circles, this means you automatically lose (like Godwin). Secondly, if I (or someone else) were to e-psychoanalyse YOU, it would end up being something like

Extremists require people like you - self-interested people who identify with a "higher morality" above all else.

You don't stand against PayPal because you independently came to the conclusion that they are immoral, but because you see yourself as an underdog/rebel, fighting tyrannous evil. You wish you were the archetypal hero from every hollywood movie ever, and you want the fame, self-righteousness and moral platitudes that come with it. Semi-anonymously braying at the entities other people think are evil (and so you do too) is the closest you'll ever come, "PopeRatzo".

I'm not saying these things are true; what I AM saying is that e-psychoanalysis is completely useless and retarded (hence, anyone can safely disregard the above blockquote).

Re:What's a Paypal? (-1, Troll)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383836)

I'm not saying these things are true

That's where we differ. I am saying that the things I wrote are true, and that simple observation of the rush to defend even the most despicable acts by the powerful against the less powerful proves it.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383880)

I for one support your next burglars decision to clear out your house, not because I condone burglary, but burglars are private businessmen making decisions that they feel suits them best.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

BeanThere (28381) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382796)

If this were a federally-regulated bank they would not be able to do this.

If PayPal were a regulated bank of any sort, they'd be just as small and insignificant as any other provider in the field, and we'd have *nothing* instead of PayPal. No thanks, we're better off with PayPal than with no PayPal (the fact that they're so popular is because they remain so useful). PayPal's problem isn't that it isn't regulated, it's that it has no real competition and the main reason it has no competition is precisely that "real" banks are over-regulated to the point of being crippled. If PayPal had to 'become a bank', as seems to be the trendy thing to push for these days, then we'd cease to have such a service at all. Be careful what you wish for; "regulation" isn't the answer here, it's a big part of the problem.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382810)

He refuses to use it. He wouldn't lose anything.

(This answer is rather dear to me, as I also refuse to use it)

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Informative)

bhtooefr (649901) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382866)

The thing is, in Europe, wire payments seem to work quite well for this sort of thing.

It's just that here, domestic wire payments only make sense for transfers in the thousands of dollars.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31382920)

Too bad I already blew my mod points for the day. With a sig like that, you're asking to be overrated yoursefl.

Re:What's a Paypal? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383010)

not only did you blow your mod points, you also blew 2 niggers and a beaner

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383220)

That's because of (gasp) government regulation of the wire transfer - in the EU (well, except particularly retarded bits) banks are required to support IBAN transfers for a few pence (technically it's "for the same price as purely domestic transfers", but they'd price themselves out of the market rapidly if they tried to charge much there). They aren't required to advertise the fact they support IBAN transfers, but everyone knows about it by now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area [wikipedia.org]

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

NJRoadfan (1254248) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383874)

The thing is, in Europe, wire payments seem to work quite well for this sort of thing.

It's just that here, domestic wire payments only make sense for transfers in the thousands of dollars.

I'm going to assume wire transfers are a bit cheaper in Europe too.

Re:What's a Paypal? (5, Insightful)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383058)

Be careful what you wish for; "regulation" isn't the answer here, it's a big part of the problem.

Because nothing ever bad came from letting banks do whatever they want.

Re:What's a Paypal? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383318)

If you are talking about this economic situation we are in right now, be aware it did not come about because banks did whatever they wanted. It came about in large part because banks were pressured by lawsuit and by certain congressmen to give loans to people they did not want to give loans to, who would be unable to make payments, in an attempt to make owning your own house "more affordable". Unfortunately the old rules of economics still apply, and banks were unable to collect. Well over a hundred banks closed in 2008 and 2009, actually reducing competition and reducing value to customers as a result.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383524)

What percentage of subprime defaults were loans regulated by the CRA? What percentage did those defaults comprise of the total losses?

Go on, you're the anonymous expert, so I'm sure you have the answers, and I'm sure they will support your case.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383558)

I don't believe anyone pressured banks in to sub-prime mortgages, just to give mortgages to people who wouldn't otherwise qualify. So no, banks still fucked themselves.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383598)

banks were pressured by lawsuit and by certain congressmen

Nice red herring you've got there. Too bad more than half the bad loans were made by mortgage companies like ditech.com (you might also know them as "GM") who had shitloads of cash and no regulations on what to do with it.

If there was any one thing that caused the economy to implode, it was the ability to securitize those mortgages. Once that happened, all those mortgage companies and banks and rating agencies all lied about how much those mortgage-backed securities were worth, whether they came from ACORN loans or came from someone seeing a lendingtree.com ad on TV.

Needless to say, the "CRA did it ;_;" patrol has been thourougly debunked over and over, so please stop spreading lies like this.

fool (4, Informative)

unity100 (970058) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383788)

as long as there are fools like you who naively believe that crap, we can get out of this mess.

1 million americans risked losing their homes. lets say these were bought from $500,000 at the market's prime. now their value is devalued to $300,000. it makes $200,000 per house difference. multiply it with 1 million houses at risk, it makes $300 bn. it means that the total loss from this was $300 bn.

go even further, and TRIPLE the risk. make it $900 bn.

america itself provided more than $1.2 trillion to banks. europe provided similar ~$1 trillion amount. switzerland and other countries provided separate amounts to their banks.

it means that as of now, the governments worldwide covered approx SEVEN times the loss in this crisis.

then WHY the fuck we are not getting out of it ? despite ALL potential losses are covered in multiples ?

BECAUSE IT ISNT A HOUSING CRISIS.

it is a crisis of investment tools. the banks have created bonds indexed on these houses, and then moved to create EXTRA assets indexed on those bonds and so on. in the end, they created WATER VAPOR assets, which were traded at around SIXTY times the entire worth of all houses they were based upon.

this means wall street banks peddled worthless paper that is inflated over SIXTY times of what value they should have to people around the world. even leaving aside the big fraud that is creating derived assets over other derived assets in the first place.

and the SOLE reason this has happened is, because bush administration left banks unregulated, didnt even touch them, and let them do this immense fraud. while whole world has been trusting that since usa was a G5 country, its banking and finance mechanisms would work properly. it didnt. because fraud was allowed.

as said, as long as there are fools like you who still doesnt know how they really been screwed, and as long as there are fools like the one modded you insightful, this fraud is bound to repeat.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

gangien (151940) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383554)

well what's the bad stuff that's happened? refering to the recent crash? well let's look, fed lowers interest rates (aka prints money and gives it to banks), banks gamble with free money, lose, then federal government buys them out. Who's really at fault here? not to mention we encouraged banks to lend to more people. Bubble created, bubble popped. and not all banks did gamble. we should have let those who were responsible, acquire the assets of those who weren't. but instead, we prop up the irresponsible banks. it's a failure of government intervention. and soon enough, we're gonna pay an even bigger price. And somehow it'll all get magically blamed on the free market, and on deregulation. nevermind we have a shitton of regulation already in place.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383734)

...and nothing bad ever came of allowing public and private interests merging in a joint effort against their common foe: individual liberty.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

MrMista_B (891430) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383856)

Christ, wake up. Haven't you been paying attention for the past year and a half? Letting banks do whatever they want has /devastated/ not just the American economy, but economies all over the world.

Bad thinks /do/ happen when you let banks do whatever they want, no matter what you personally may believe. You think nothing bad ever came from letting banks do whatever they want? Either you're just not paying attention, you're willfully ignorant, or you're functionally mentally broken.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383130)

With a comment that long, couldn't you include some kind of argument for your position?

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383756)

Sure, banks are obviously over-regulated.

WTF are you smoking, coca rolled in dollar bills?

No they wouldn't... But they *would* be able (2, Funny)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383140)

If this were a federally-regulated bank they would not be able to do this.

to bring the American Economy to it's knees instead.

 

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Informative)

ktandaeo (116154) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383182)

Banks do this all the time. Any merchant provider can stop your processing and withhold all your money due to "risk" at any time.

Federally-regulated means nothing.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383204)

yes they would, if what they were doing was pissing someone off in the fed who has sufficient sway...

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Insightful)

clarkkent09 (1104833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383296)

I don't know about 180 day freezing of funds, that sounds extremely fishy to me. But the part about not doing business with potentially risky clients? Try opening a merchant account with a major bank and see that you will get rejected or have your account closed in a second if they smell something risky in your business regarding things like a slightest hint of potential copyright liability or legal adult content, or any other legal type of business that they disapprove of.

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Informative)

spottedkangaroo (451692) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382978)

you don't have to have a paypal account to make a payment with paypal. You can make a payment *through* paypal as a regular old boring ccard transaction.

It's the merchants that really get shafted...

I noticed that paypal is really the only option for selling software in the webos appstore. That's pretty depressing imo.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383810)

No, in some parts of the world PayPal only lets you make a limited number of CC transactions (payments) through PayPal. After that they refuse to do the transaction unless you sign up for a PayPal account.

To make this especially nasty, they don't tell you how many CC transactions (payments) you are allowed to do, before they refuse to do a particular transaction.

PayPal claims that with your first CC payment you opened a kind of "guest account", and that "guest account" is limited and expires in some way.

So buying doing ordinary CC payment through PayPal without a PayPal account is a risky gamble. You might have reached that secret limit and PayPal might refuse the particular transaction. Then you are in trouble and have to explain that to the seller. Or you subdue to PayPal's coercion game and finally sign up to avoid trouble with ordering something but then not paying for it.

Re:What's a Paypal? (3, Insightful)

Kenja (541830) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383156)

Frankly, most small web sales companies (talking about one person selling items via a web page) simply can not afford the fees involved in normal credit card transactions.

PayPal is inexpensive and most people never have an issue with the service.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383316)

I run a small business selling online.

Google checkout is an alternative to paypal.

It was just as easy to set up as a merchant with google as it was with paypal (yes, I accept both). For my customers both are secure, and names that they know and trust. Neither requires that the customer register in order to pay me -you can just enter your cc info and pay.

I don't trust either of them with my money any longer than I have to, but I am happy to use their services to provide my customers easy and convenient ways of paying me.

Re:What's a Paypal? (2, Informative)

boyter (964910) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383790)

Not in countries like Australia. Down here Paypal is pretty much all we have.

Alternatives? (1, Interesting)

Reverberant (303566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383160)

I have, and will continue to, refuse to conduct business with online entities that do not support a non-Paypal option. I have never used Paypal, and I don't anticipate that this will change.

I know people hate PayPal (and for good reason), but there is one reason why I continue to use PayPal for my web sales: the PayPal debit card, which means that I have near instant access my my received funds. It works great for me since I sell physical products, so if my cash flow is low, I can take the money from an order and immediately use it to purchase more inventory. I have Google checkout and Amazon Payments accounts that I can use for backup, but both of those hold on to your money for a set period; once the money is cleared, the only way you can get it is through a bank transfer which takes another couple of days. In good times, that's fine, but in this economic climate it's nice to be able to get my hands on my money.

If someone knows of a good, reliable cc processors that gives relatively fast access to cash (say, 48 hours or less), I'll switch in an instant.

Re:Alternatives? (1)

Cylix (55374) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383572)

Until they hold your money hostage.

Sure they can give it to you freely, but they could also freeze your funds for months based on suspicion.

I have near instant access to my funds and I use a check card. It is called a bank and mine has functioned like that for ages.

no, you can't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383762)

**I can take the money from an order and immediately use it to purchase more inventory.**

No, you can't. That's kiting, and it's a major felony in the construction business. You must FIRST fill the order before you can use that money.

Re:What's a Paypal? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383162)

I own a business that sells quite a lot of commerical software licences *daily*. I *refuse* to accept PayPal as a payment option. People who can only buy with PayPal can GTFO out my business, I don't want their money.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

AmigaMMC (1103025) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383364)

Same here. I own a business and I do not accept Paypal because too many people got their businesses ruined by PayPal for blocking their funds for reasons PayPal won't even give. Unfortunately they are not a bank and cannot be regulated by current US Laws, but I think that any entity that handles people's money should be regulated for those people's protection.

Re:What's a Paypal? (1)

meerling (1487879) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383652)

So what you're saying is you'll punish a business or organization that is being harassed for whistleblowing because a non-regulated bank (by activity if not labeling) has cut them off from it's services for questionable and possibly collusional activity with the corporation that was the focus of whistleblowing of possible illegal and probably underhanded activities.

Do you advocate the raping of females that wear short skirts also?

Lucky bastard. (4, Insightful)

acarey (34175) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382642)

I'd give anything to get a letter from PayPal like that. For us mere mortals, it takes about 30 click-throughs to close an account. PayPal is the Worst Thing In The World.

Re:Lucky bastard. (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382750)

Oh, and if you don't have a credit card associated with it, but you have a balance of even $1.20, first you have to associate it with a credit card to establish...something.. about your claim to the pittance, then you can begin the closeout process...

Re:Lucky bastard. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31382914)

Actually, this just encouraged me to close mine. They're not sending checks of $1.50 or less. Muppets also sent me 4 emails to tell me I'd closed the account. Pretty painless process all in all. Fuck em! EDIT: two more email arrived as I typed this!

Oh great. (2, Interesting)

Cow Jones (615566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382676)

We just donated a few weeks ago... I really hope that money doesn't end up in Paypal's pockets.

Re:Oh great. (1)

slim (1652) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382926)

Per Cryptome - all donations have been refunded.

Regardless of what happened, it wouldn't have ended up in Paypal's pockets, in the long term (although as other /. comments note - it can be in excess of 6 months). Either it gets refunded, or it eventually is unfrozen.

Re:Oh great. (2, Interesting)

RichardJenkins (1362463) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383134)

Can Paypal earn interest on it in the interim?

Re:Oh great. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383188)

Their T & C say they can even keep the money without refund, so interest is the last of your worries.

(the Xorg foundation lost $5k in this manner.)

Re:Oh great. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383826)

Of course it can. And does.

When? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31382762)

When will someone come out with a viable competitor for PayPal so that we will finally have a choice?

Capitalist Response (1)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383040)

When will someone come out with a viable competitor for PayPal so that we will finally have a choice?

I suspect it will happen when it becomes profitable to do so. Until then, we'll just complain about PayPal.

Re:When? (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383212)

Google checkout works rather well. All you have to do is associate it with a bank account. You don't have to setup a 'store.' But can just send e-mail invoices instead.

Any time I sell something on line, I write up a short description, drop in the e-mail address and amount and they get an invoice they can pay with their credit card. Now I can't just 'send' someone money, but that's really not been a big problem for me.

Re:When? (5, Interesting)

pla (258480) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383338)

When will someone come out with a viable competitor for PayPal so that we will finally have a choice?

A viable alternative already exists - Just use your bank as a CC payment processor.

My father runs a small business (under half a million gross per year), and about two years ago discovered that his bank would handle everything for a quite reasonable fee - About the same as he previously paid just to take Visa, and, as a bonus, he can accept the dreaded American Express (as well as just about any major CC) that so many small businesses refuse to touch (meaning he can accept corporate and government business, which tend to use AmEx almost exclusively).

If you expect mostly a lot of very small transactions (such as a typical web site "tip" jar), that model might not work so well. But if you sell anything best measured in "dollars" rather than "cents", it seems like a no-brainer.

Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing goods (3, Informative)

kaptink (699820) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382764)

Paypals AUP states as part of its AUP "prohibited activities" that you may not receive payments relating to the *sales* of goods that "infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction". Keyword here being sales. Given that cryptome does not actually sell anything and paypal is used for donations only makes this act by paypal to be somewhat unwarranted I would have thought. Even tho companies tend to do as they please. Will be interested to see what happens.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (2, Insightful)

bhtooefr (649901) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382950)

PayPal, being a business, also has the right to refuse any business they want.

Freezing funds gets screwy, though.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (0)

kismet666 (653742) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383042)

freezing what funds? you don't maintain deposit accounts a Paypal, the money passes through Paypal to an actual bank. Paypal choosing to stop doing business with Cryptome is not the same thing as freezing funds.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (4, Informative)

mikkelm (1000451) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383120)

Yes you do. Unless specifically configured to do otherwise, funds transferred to your PayPal account will remain there as available balance.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (2, Insightful)

cawpin (875453) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383096)

PayPal, being a business, also has the right to refuse any business they want.

Freezing funds gets screwy, though.

They lose a big chunk of that right when they spell out, in a TOS, what they can and cannot do. If they do outside those bounds they, just like users, are in violation of that agreement.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (3, Insightful)

number11 (129686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383138)

PayPal, being a business, also has the right to refuse any business they want.

That is true. But this is money they have already accepted from Cryptome's donors that PayPal is stealing.*

*Even if they eventually give the money back, they are stealing the use of the funds for half a year. I'd accept a different word if they pay Cryptome interest at the prime rate.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (2, Insightful)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383202)

Businesses have no right to break the law. PayPal thinks the laws do not apply to them.

We need to be expanding the boycott of PayPal and the boycott of businesses that use PayPal as the only means to pay. Maybe we should also go further and boycott those that merely include PayPal as one of the options.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (1, Interesting)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383256)

PayPal, being a business, also has the right to refuse any business they want.

Not if it is a contract they don't. The GP might be a bit pedantic with the AUP but it does bring up questions regarding Paypal's doings in this case.

Re:Paypal AUP only states sales of infringing good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383716)

PayPal, being a business, also has the right to refuse any business they want.

Freezing funds gets screwy, though.

Really.... so if $BUSINESSNAME doesn't want to do business with members of $ETHNICMINORITYGROUP, I can have said members call you and you will explain this to them? Unless you want to refuse my business, of course.

Paypal and fraud... (5, Interesting)

hadesan (664029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382848)

With heightened visibility comes more scrutiny. Paypal and their more shady customers probably don't want anymore light shown on their activities. Better for paypal to dump cryptome to protect their "more lucrative" albeit more less forthright customers...

Here is a lovely site for some light reading... http://www.paypalsucks.com/ [paypalsucks.com]

Also an interesting story on a new scam in Boston on a scam using facebook, twitter, and Paypal http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/03/6000_fall_prey.html [boston.com]

Re:Paypal and fraud... (1, Insightful)

stimpleton (732392) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383150)

Pay Pal Sucks [paypalsucks.com] comes up everytime there is a story about Pay Pal. Suspiciously, the "Alernatives To Paypal" section is but one vendor. In fact the "Alternatives" button leads you to the vendors website.

A list of various alternatives would be fine. But just the one, it passes discredit to the whole site. Are the stories even real?

Re:Paypal and fraud... (1)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383190)

I don't know if the stories on that site are real, but the stories in general are. I've been a customer of more than 1 company that got screwed by Paypal.

Strategic Attack On Banks? (4, Interesting)

DustoneGT (969310) | more than 4 years ago | (#31382996)

There was also a recent story about a blogger who had his Citi account closed because he was controversial. Could this be a new trend? Could there be a back story here? I mean law firms of the big players might threaten to sue the bank of an enemy to make life difficult. Let's call this BLAPP, Banking Lawsuit Against Public Participation.

Donations only service (3, Interesting)

zogger (617870) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383032)

I don't want an alternative to payapl to buy stuff, because plastic cards work for that or postal money orders, that's the existing alternative, but an online "donations only" service, so it could be used for micro or "minimal" payments would be interesting. Something with a much smaller transaction fee, and geared to only non profit orgs to receive funding. The service itself could/should be a non profit org as well.

Re:Donations only service (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383344)

http://www.mycharity.ie/index.php

I can't say it's a non profit org but it's a decent way to set up fund raising for charity! The only type of site I've seen along these lines.

Re:Donations only service (1)

fyoder (857358) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383670)

There needs to be an alternative for small businesses and regular folk to collect money, something that has no monthly fee and only takes a small percentage (the smaller the better, obviously) of the transaction. No one has come up with anything to replace paypal for this. Why, I don't know, given that paypal seems to be inviting competition by pissing so many people off.

This sucks, but is it wrong? (1)

cperciva (102828) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383072)

This definitely sucks for cryptome. But has PayPal actually done anything wrong?

It seems to me that PayPal isn't trying to be evil here; rather, they made a business decision that cryptome wasn't an organization they wanted to do business with. Businesses make such decisions every day -- car rental companies in Canada, for example, often refuse to rent cars to anyone under age 25 -- so why is it different when PayPal does the same thing?

(For the record, my company only takes payments via PayPal, but I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when Amazon Payments or Google Checkout start accepting Canadian merchants. I don't like PayPal either; I just think they're not being evil in this case.)

Re:This sucks, but is it wrong? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383208)

Yes, it's wrong. Fine if you don't want to do business with me, just give me my damn money! They shouldn't be allowed to freeze funds for 6 months -- that's just insane.

Re:This sucks, but is it wrong? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383226)

Is it wrong to deny you access to thousands of dollars that belong to you, hold them hostage for 6 months, and then deduct a huge fee before finally wiring it to your bank (if at all)? Definitely sounds like fraud to me.

If it works like a bank... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383074)

Then Paypal should be regulated like one. I think that they're doing JYA a favor by ending their business relationship.

Collections department(s)? (1)

sjdude (470014) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383174)

How long before people begin to set up Cryptome Benefit sites that accept PayPal donations for Cryptome, and then forward the money to them?

Behind the scenes (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383254)

PayPal employees I used to know not only delighted in the "parting ways" email, they'd actively laugh at how there as no avenue of appeal so the customer was entirely SOL. With so many companies prostrating themselves to keep business, it's undeniably liberating to be able to flip clients off with company approval.

Just dont use Network Solutions. (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383412)

it is one of the bad reputation registrars in such cases, along with godaddy and 1&1. they should have gone with a more reliable and by the book registrar like enom

Lay down with the devil ... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31383662)

I have no pity for those using PayPal. It is not as if PayPal users couldn't know in advance with whom they are dealing.

PayPal freezes your funds? They just make you pay an idiot tax.

Simple suggestion (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383672)

we would like to begin parting ways in a manner that is least disruptive to your business.

Well, they could start by NOT grabbing the money for 180 days. I wonder how paypal would feel about it if someone held onto money owed to them for 180 days just because they could.

Wire transfer (1)

TheMidget (512188) | more than 4 years ago | (#31383766)

Why don't cryptome post an account number where people can wire donations to? Yes, there are fees to a wire transfer, but for many they are not that huge, and many people probably won't mind.

If the possibility existed, I'd wire them €50 in a moment, and wouldn't even mind €10 fees...

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