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XML Co-Founder Joins Google, Blasts iPhone

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the sinners-in-the-hands-of-an-angry-apple dept.

Google 628

conner_bw writes "XML co-founder Tim Bray has taken the job of 'Developer Advocate' at Google. Don't other companies call that position 'Evangelist?' Because he sure doesn't mince words against the iPhone in his first sermon: 'It's a sterile Disney-fied walled garden surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The people who create the apps serve at the landlord's pleasure and fear his anger.'"

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Oh SNAP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31489940)

No he didn't!

Apple's Been Blasting iPhone Users in the Ass (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490364)

Fortunately for Apple, when iPhone users aren't getting blasted in the ass by their turtleneck wearing overlords, they blast eachother in the ass for fun.

Personally, I think it's wrong. You can't move humanity forward if you are blasting people in the ass all day.

XML vs iPhone (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31489958)

XML vs. iPhone. I can't think of a better metaphor for "open but convoluted" vs. "closed but useable."

Re:XML vs iPhone (5, Funny)

JamesP (688957) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490058)

Comparing XML to the iPhone is like comparing a fighter jet with a celebrity cooking show on television.

Re:XML vs iPhone (5, Funny)

.tekrox (858002) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490244)

They both have the power to kill thousands, I don't see the big difference.

Re:XML vs iPhone (5, Funny)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490270)

Comparing XML to the iPhone is like comparing a fighter jet with a celebrity cooking show on television.

I see no mention of cars in that comparison, so I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Re:XML vs iPhone (-1, Troll)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490418)

Hot wheels on a plastic track to F1.

Re:XML vs iPhone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490600)

Hot wheels on a plastic track to F1.

... Well, I guess toys can be compared to online help...

Re:XML vs iPhone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490684)

Comparing XML to the iPhone is cars like comparing a fighter jet with a celebrity cooking show on television.

Understand it now?

Re:XML vs iPhone (1)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490554)

I can: open but convoluted = Little money
Closed but usable = Big money

To be fair (5, Informative)

JanneM (7445) | more than 4 years ago | (#31489960)

This is not a work-related "convenient opinion" of his. He's been critical of Apple's walled-garden approach to development for years, and an Android advocate since he got an Android phone in 2008 (see http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/12/18/Android-Diary [tbray.org] for his chronicles using and programming it).

Re:To be fair (2, Informative)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490030)

Also, it's a completely legitimate sentiment (if rather over-dramatically stated). Most phone users don't care, which is how the iPhone manages to stay popular in the face of Apple's iron-fisted control, but it's still true.

Re:To be fair (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490170)

Although I don't condone their abuses of corporate power, Disney has made a lot of money by being "Disney-fied".

Re:To be fair (5, Insightful)

Hadlock (143607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490140)

Not only is it a walled garden, but everybody seems to forget that Apple is doing exactly what the slashdot community rallied against Microsoft for doing, i.e. the digital wallet, multiple music stores, music players (at least they opened it up to other vendors besides themselves), etc, all crying out that this would be bad for the consumer. Well, Apple has done exactly what Microsoft was doing 10 years ago, it's just that since it was Apple, it was ok (don't mod me down, I'm not trying to troll here). There's some traction in the tech media about Apple doing to developers what slashdotites claimed MS would do, but since Apple isn't the (or wasn't) 800 lb gorilla most people let it slide. Well now Apple owns the market segment (or at least a good portion of it) and ceding Poland to Apple is showing it's downside. Google's approach is definitely better, but right now the fact of the matter is that Apple's DRM system is just as bad as Mircosoft's has been in the past.

Re:To be fair (5, Insightful)

GaryPatterson (852699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490180)

everybody seems to forget that Apple is doing exactly what the slashdot community rallied against Microsoft for doing

Yup, very few posts on /. critical of Apple lately. It's not at all the dominant meme when talking about smartphones.

Seriously - do you actually read /. ? Half the posts in a thread about Apple are criticising it for exactly the things you mention, and the other half are defending it.

Re:To be fair (2, Insightful)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490762)

And the part defending Apple are not only consistently and intentionally wrong[1], they are actively advertising Apple, just because they follow the company as if it were their favourite football team. Of course there had to be a back-lash against them, since that kind of fraudulent PR can't go unchallenged.

[1] Examples: That the iPad is crippled because it's simplified for grandmothers (it's not, it's designed for internet addicts who already have at least one computer); that the walled garden is for security (it's for profit and lock-in); that solutions that are prohibited by Apple (tethering the iPad to the iPhone, for instance) are there because Apple always need to design things so lusciously simple (they don't, and that's not the reason why: it would compete against their otherwise prohibitively expensive 3g version of the iPad). All of these claims are creative excuses proposed by freelance advertising agents, a.k.a. fanboys; they are wrong, and they are repeated ad nauseam, and most people who read this site are fed up with them.

Re:To be fair (1)

michaelhood (667393) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490316)

and ceding Poland to Apple

godWIN!

Re:To be fair (2, Informative)

paiute (550198) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490366)

and ceding Poland to Apple

godWIN!

The Sudetenland was ceded. Poland was invaded. Get your convoluted memes right.

Re:To be fair (4, Funny)

Hadlock (143607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490416)

Oops sorry. But you got my lightly veiled reference that Apple = Hitler, so I'm still ahead :)
 
Here's the wikipedia link [wikipedia.org] for those interested.

What are they doing again? (1, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490528)

Apple is doing exactly what the slashdot community rallied against Microsoft for doing, i.e. the digital wallet, multiple music stores, music players

Can you explain this point a little more? None f it made much sense to me.

1) You could always use non-DRM music from other stores on the iPod, from launch.
2) There has never been an Apple "digital wallet" like the points system MS uses on Live (though MS is not using that for Windows Phone 7 Series).
3) Multiple music stores??? Why is that even a problem...

The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Microsoft had to have utter control of standards, and only begrudgingly worked with anything open. While Apple has worked beside and on top of many open technologies, which has benefited a ton of people (ZeroConf, Webkit, CLANG, etc.).

I'm sorry but the parallels between Apple and Microsoft are weak at best, because in general Apple's approach strengthens the technology sector for everyone. Would HTML5 video really be pushed as hard as it has been without Apple helping to shove?

Re:What are they doing again? (4, Insightful)

Hadlock (143607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490652)

You've always been able to play MP3s on all digital music players. That's a key bullet point in the PPT presentation on how you even get funding to design and a digital music player. I'm not even going to argue about that.
 
Apple has had absolute control of their standards (Quicktime, proprietary audio formats/encryption, device lockin (itunes only works with ipod, and will update itunes to break compatibility with any other device)... Apple has always been very aggressive about vendor lockin, and only uses "open" standards when it serves their purpose to break into a market, and quickly lose interest once they have a substancial market share (see also: embrace, extend, extinguish).
 
I'm not trying to say Apple is completely evil, but they act more like Microsoft than most people realize, and only use open technologies enough to ease the paranoia of the technical community, knowing that their acceptance of products/technology is crucial to widespread consumer uptake (see also: Vista Failure).

Re:To be fair (1, Funny)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490580)

I disagree you are trolling big time. Since I disagree with you it is obvious that you are trolling!

Re:To be fair (0, Redundant)

Hadlock (143607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490694)

I think you're right. Let's wait and see if I get up or down modded(!)

Re:To be fair (2, Insightful)

jocknerd (29758) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490646)

Its not OK because its Apple. Its OK because Apple makes it usable. It wasn't OK for Microsoft, because their implementations sucked. People are willing to forgive Apple because it works well for them.

Re:To be fair (1, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490724)

Not only is it a walled garden, but everybody seems to forget that Apple is doing exactly what the slashdot community rallied against Microsoft for doing...

Microsoft was and is a monopoly. This is apparent in marketshare and the fact that many application are Windows-only without a good Mac/Linux counterpart (for instance, no good comprehensive ebay listing software equivalent to blackthorne).

It has alleviated the past years, seen by how no longer are many websites IE-only, but it's still entrenched in many areas. Basically, Windows had a monopoly on its API.

Apple has no such monopoly. Music Players? You can get many alternatives in the very same windows Walmart showcases iPods. Itunes? Amazon sells tracks, along with many other vendors. Smartphone, droid. Does the iPhone have a monopoly on smartphone apps? I don't think it does but may be wrong.

I don't think Apple is the nicest company around, but they dickish moves have much less impact than Microsoft did in the 1990s.

Re:To be fair (1)

Purist (716624) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490612)

Yeah...none of us slashdot readers are familiar with the "walled garden" approach...

He Can Vote With His Wallet (4, Insightful)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 4 years ago | (#31489964)

Just like the rest of us he can choose to buy, or not buy, an iPhone or any other Apple or non-Apple product.

We're all adults here and if he doesn't like Apple's rules about software of the iPod/iPhone/iPad then he can choose not to get one. It's as simple as that.

The government isn't requiring us all to get iProducts ... yet ;-)

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1, Insightful)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 4 years ago | (#31489994)

I think the trick here is that he's presenting his reasoning for why he votes with his wallet in the hopes that he will change people's viewpoint.

But then again, apple fanboi's will always try to herd a stray iSheep back to the iFlock. There's even an app for that!

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (4, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490020)

Also, as Developer Advocate for Android, part of his job is trying to change people's viewpoint on whether they ought to develop for the iPhone or Android.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (4, Insightful)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490310)

iPhone's main advantage from the perspective is user base and that won't necessarily continue if Apple has to compete with competent Android implementations. I'll probably be getting a droid based phone in the near future. A large part of the desirability is that Google allows a number of programs into their marketplace which Apple won't. It got really ridiculous when Apple started banning things which made the iPhone easier to use or could be used in some esoteric way to find objectionable material.

Probably the best thing he can do is crack the whip and make sure the various companies that want to create Android based products do so in a competent way and discourage carriers from behaving like the dicks they tend to be. As in not doing all that stupid adjustments and customizations that hurt usability.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490692)

Also, as Developer Advocate for Android, part of his job is trying to change people's viewpoint on whether they ought to develop for the iPhone or Android.

I'd rather say that he's now getting paid for doing what he always did. SCORE!

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490748)

And if it was Steve Balmer saying the same things we'd be dragging him over the coals and shouting "Developers, Developers, Developers!".

There are as many, if not more, Apple haters as there are fanboys in these parts and the rest of the tech world. They constantly declare Apple failures and berate Apple achievements. It's just unrealistic to blame the failures of competing products on Apple or MS successes.

Open is good, but it's obviously not a requirement for a successful product or company. If it were Apple and MS wouldn't be in the top 5 US companies ... and a Linux company would.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (4, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490452)

I'll agree that Apple makes Disney Land. It's all highly controlled and polished to look exactly how they want it to, and to keep "undesirable" elements out.

There's still quite a lot of choice in the market. In fact, whatever you think of the iPhone it's self, we've certainly seen a bigger improvement in the cell industry in the last 3 years (post iPhone) than we did the in 3 or 4 years before. Today, there are numerous phones out with interfaces that aren't abysmal. You can get a game like Bejeweled without having to pay $3 or $4 per month (as carriers liked to charge).

I like the Apple experience, and I love my iPhone. Daniel Jalkut put up a post on his blog today called Surfing in Antartica [red-sweater.com] , which really resonated with me on why I think the iPhone is so great, and why I'm really interested in what the iPad might bring.

Apple does some stuff I don't like. Disney does a lot I don't like (and I know many /.ers agree with me). But there are large segments of the market that love the way those companies do things. There are people who happily pay a large chunk of money to get to live in Disney Land for a few hours a day, a few days a year.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490488)

Yeah, but it's third-party. Go figure.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490490)

I think the trick here is that he's presenting his reasoning for why he votes with his wallet in the hopes that he will change people's viewpoint.

But then again, apple fanboi's will always try to herd a stray iSheep back to the iFlock. There's even an app for that!

I like how both sides are trying to "change people's viewpoint", but only the people Apple's side are called sheep.

The Android Community does not need this.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1, Insightful)

Liquidrage (640463) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490172)

You could choose to not buy Windows. But for some reason they were forced to not strongly couple their web browser with the OS. And /. applauded.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1, Insightful)

GaryPatterson (852699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490256)

That whole anti-trust thing just went over your head, eh? I can see how the stories from remote locations like the US and EU would be hard for you to spot. It's not like there was any coverage around here or on any tech enthusiast site.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490566)

obviously you are missing his point. Or is it that somehow you feel that Apple is better than MSFT and therefore above the same scrutiny???. This is not about choice of purchase. It is about one company getting legally screwed, whilst another just does it own little thing while trying to monopolize and sue its way to dominance (oh and that is not Microsoft) I personally think that most Apple products are awesome, however, I doubt that I will ever own one as I like their business practices much less than Microsoft

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (5, Insightful)

blueg3 (192743) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490588)

Not only can he vote with his wallet, but he's free to express his opinion to others who might vote with their wallets in the future. He's not forcing you or anyone else to do anything.

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490650)

Sadly, this argument assumes that free markets remain free in the face of the massive success of a given good or company. Let's face it, for all that it's touted to be pragmatic, the foundation of capitalism is idealistic. It assumes that the "almighty market" will always promote competition. While it does so at first, in reality, the moment that a given brand/company/product dominates the market sufficiently, there is often the aftereffect that competitors die off. If the number of people who exercise their choice to buy elsewhere is too small, those people eventually see their freedom of choice denied by the masses who chose otherwise, becasuse competitors disappear from the market. Hence the complaining on sites like Slashdot, because if we can't get enough people to excercise their freedom of choice elsewhere than the dominant flavour, we all run the risk of being denied the choice in the future. It's all about critical mass.

Disney-fied? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490658)

I wonder if Apple would allow a "Gay-dar" app, seeing as how most Apple users are poo stabbers...

Re:He Can Vote With His Wallet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490758)

Yes it is that simple. And I am sure he votes with his wallet, but does that mean the topic should not be discussed, nobody should post about it or have an opinion about it? You are changing the subject in attempt to end the discussion. If a car company made a crappy car with design problems and limitations or whatever would you be telling people they should not be talking about it because they have a choice to buy a different car? Just like you don't have to read this article, nobody is making you, so go read another article and don't comment on this one. That makes sense... If people didn't want to discuss positive and negative things about tech and such, forums like this would not exist. You have been brainwashed by apple.

In other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31489968)

Tim Bray apparently think he's Indiana Jones.

I wonder if he has a <whip />?

Lack of credibility (4, Informative)

Danborg (62420) | more than 4 years ago | (#31489976)

Tim Bray bought his *first* smartphone in December 2008 and declared it the best he's ever owned:

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/12/ [tbray.org] ...

Maybe if he had tried 3 or 4 other phones and then settled on Android, his opinion would have weight.
This guy had never owned a "fancy phone" until 15 months ago and now he's an expert? Seriously Google, is this the best you can do?

Re:Lack of credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490056)

Seriously Google, is this the best you can do?

Oh yeah, because being the Co-Founder of XML automatically means he's a complete moron... Gimme a break!

Re:Lack of credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490734)

Oh yeah, because being the Co-Founder of XML automatically means he's a complete moron...

Actually, I'll agree to that.

He was on a committee that took a mess of an existing file format (SGML/HTML) and made it more consistent. So now the rest of us get suffer this ridiculously inefficient data format. Brilliance!

Re:Lack of credibility (3, Insightful)

hey! (33014) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490106)

Er, if it were his *first* smartphone, how could it *not* be the best he'd ever owned?

Exactly! (4, Funny)

schon (31600) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490148)

Exactly - it's just like that Richard Dawkins guy - he's always talking about religion, but he's an atheist! How can he possibly know anything about religion if he doesn't believe in god!??!?!

Re:Lack of credibility (2, Insightful)

trb (8509) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490202)

Tim Bray managed the Oxford English Dictionary project - that is, computerizing the OED, back in the 80's, before anyone blazed those trails - and did lots of other cool hacking over the years. You're saying he doesn't have credibility because he hasn't sampled enough smartphones?

Re:Lack of credibility (3, Insightful)

Danborg (62420) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490412)

Notice I said he had a lack of credibility, I didn't say he wasn't a bright guy in other fields. That's like saying, hey my Uncle Lou did some cool stuff with mainframes back in the day, and they had about the same amount of processing power as an iPhone, maybe Google should hire him! Read Tim's own words in his Android Diary [tbray.org] .

I've never actually had a "smart" or otherwise fancy phone before, so this is by far the nicest I've owned.

What kind of technologist bought his first smartphone a little over a year ago? And declares his very first one, The Best! It makes me question his methodology for making decisions, at the very least.

Do you ever read smartphone related websites like Boy Genius Report [boygeniusreport.com] , for example? These people live and breath smartphones, and actually carry and use the devices they review and blog about. There are numerous people that are infinitely more qualified on smartphones than Tim Bray will ever be.

I'm sure Tim is a fine fellow otherwise, and would make an excellent neighbor, who if he borrowed your rake, would return it promptly in good condition.

Re:Lack of credibility (3, Informative)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490686)

Read his statement a bit more closely. He obviously recognizes his lack of basis for comparison, his wording says so: "I've never actually had [a smartphone], SO this is by far the nicest". He may have used other smartphones (he doesn't really say), but his wording clearly is meant to convey that he's choosing his Android phone as "best I've owned" by default.

Mind Of God (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31489990)

Hires Devils Advocate.
Hell just froze over.

Surprising? (1, Troll)

jaxtherat (1165473) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490000)

Of course he's going to blast the iPhone. Google needs to de-trone the iPhone as the market leader in advanced phones otherwise they run the risk of becoming irrelevant in the future in the same way that Microsoft did in the cloud (for lack of a better term).

Re:Surprising? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490122)

Keep drinking that HIV+ kewl AID.

Re:Surprising? (4, Informative)

VirexEye (572399) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490132)

Technically RIM still holds the biggest smart phone market share with the iPhone in 2nd place.

Re:Surprising? (2, Insightful)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490152)

I'm pretty sure you mean Nokia, not RIM.

Re:Surprising? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490284)

I'm pretty sure you mean Nokia, not RIM.

No, he said smartphones. A smartphone is defined as being a device with few enough sales that the iphone looks like a serious competitor in comparison. Nokia do not make smartphones.

Re:Surprising? (1)

eparker05 (1738842) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490146)

I don't disagree with the implication you are making here, but I'd like to point out the irony that Google needs to win a fight for a software platform in order to prevent themselves from becoming irrelevant in the cloud.

Perhaps this supports the idea that the future is going to be made on software+service. This also turns all the old antitrust rules on their head. Businesses based on software+service can't be decoupled in the same way as windows + IE.

Re:Surprising? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490226)

Of course he's going to blast the iPhone. Google needs to de-trone the iPhone as the market leader in advanced phones otherwise they run the risk of becoming irrelevant

Haha. The market leader in advanced phones remains the blackberry, which has had an open SDK and documentation freely available for years. You don't need RIM's blessing (or even RIM's knowledge) to sell your blackberry apps.

Google is trying to dethrone the market leader in coolness.

The bird still sings in its gilded cage (2, Insightful)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490018)

Another way to look at it is that iPhone provides a solid single platform that developers can concentrate on features rather than UI and input differences.

Re:The bird still sings in its gilded cage (5, Informative)

schon (31600) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490212)

Another way to look at it is that iPhone provides a solid single platform that developers can concentrate on features rather than UI and input differences.

Yes, because if Apple allowed pictures of women in bikinis [cultofmac.com] , uncensored dictionaries [wordpress.com] or mentioning the name of a competitor [reghardware.co.uk] on the iPhone, the "solid single platform" would fragment into a dozen incompatible versions, right?

Re:The bird still sings in its gilded cage (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490526)

well since I have used three different android models each with variations in UI, and abilities you can never know what your going to get with a android. Some sucked, others were okay, None of them made me happy to use my phone. None of them used the same way to work with apps.

There needs to be one version of andriod with a consistent hard specs or it will end up like windows mobile. used by feature geeks, and hated by everyone else.

Wait, what? (1)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490062)

XML was "founded"? What is it, a city? An institution?

Re:Wait, what? (1)

value_added (719364) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490188)

XML was "founded"? What is it, a city? An institution?

A proposition.

+1 Funny mod points for completing the following:

XML was founded as a proposition dedicated to the idea that ...

Re:Wait, what? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490486)

"XML was founded as a proposition dedicated to the idea that ..." the only thing holding back s-expressions was the lack of angular punctuation and an extra, degenerate syntax for association lists which support every god-awful thing except general s-expression nesting?

wrong. (1, Insightful)

Michael Kristopeit (1751814) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490078)

The people who create the apps serve at the landlord's pleasure and fear his anger.

i create the apps... i fear nothing.

the employees of google are presumptuous AND wrong.

A critic, but not direct opponent of swpats (3, Informative)

H4x0r Jim Duggan (757476) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490080)

Tim's critical of software patents, but his position is that there's just an implimentation problem - with good tweaking it could work. Kinda disappointing that he's not pushing for abolition. Surprising too given his experience in web dev and XML. Related info:

swpat.org is a publicly-editable wiki - help in expanding this info would be very welcome and useful.

correcting myself: he's turned against them (3, Informative)

H4x0r Jim Duggan (757476) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490224)

While verifying my sources just now, I found that Tim is, since February 2010, against software patents. Glad to hear it.

I've updated the wiki.

Re:correcting myself: he's turned against them (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490386)

Software patents wouldn't be an issue if they had to provide the same level of documentation required for other types of patents. The patent office would laugh you out of the building if you came in and said that you have a new engine that runs on water but that they can't see how it does so since it's proprietary.

Re:A critic, but not direct opponent of swpats (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490446)

There is a strong argument for patents: that if a person works hard to invent something, they should be rewarded for having done something great.

The biggest problem with software patents is that people can patent things that are extremely obvious, and very much not something great. If people only got patents for doing something great, not very many people would have a problem with them. (there might be a few other problems to fix too, like elimination of submarine patents).

Most of us don't benefit directly from patents, so we don't have any reason to support them, but there are some reasons for their existence (though personally I would prefer to get rid of software patents completely compared to what we have now).

That seems to be Apple's role... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490086)

They make the breakthroughs in technology, but leave others to fully exploit it. Their first mice had one button so that others could have two or three. Their music player and iTunes had to deal with DRM and proprietary formats so that others could develop cheaper players and negotiate DRM-free MP3 sales.

Being first is risky in business, but Apple has really made it work for themselves. Yeah, iPhone app development is a real pain, but there's a reason so many people put up with it -- and iPhone users couldn't be happier with the results.

Re:That seems to be Apple's role... (2)

capnkr (1153623) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490272)

This post is completely wrong WRT the mouse [wikipedia.org] .

And I was playing DRM-free mp3 music long before there was an iPod or iTunes.

Apple might be 'frist' in some things, but not much...

Re:That seems to be Apple's role... (1)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490374)

Hey, can I do that too?

Disney-fied? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490092)

Everybody, with me now..

It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
it's a small small world..

XML sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490108)

Googling XML sucks

  Results 1 - 10 of about 1,340,000 for xml sucks. (0.22 seconds)

Re:XML sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490216)

adding quotes brings the number down to about 23k.

I agree that XML sucks, but if we are out there to discuss the truth, we should do so.

I love this quote (1)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490110)

"The people who create the apps serve at the landlord's pleasure and fear his anger." -- There's an app for that.

I guess I'll start caring about google's phones when they decide to target men AND women. Their ads are clearly for men and it's not like I can convince my wife to get one. It's just too convenient having the same phone.

He's right. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490128)

With the iPhone and iPad, Apple has become the Big Brother it railed against in the Superbowl ad of 1984.

As an owner of many Apple computers from the Apple ][ all the way to today, it's thoroughly depressing to have watched this happen. But I guess Apple's always been schizophrenic about opennness. One one hand you have Woz distributing schematics, the developer's signatures burnt into the Mac's first motherboard, embracing of open-sourced software & development tools, lack of copy protection on their OS, replacing drm music with watermarking, etc. But then you've got them suing Franklin & Pystar, suing HTC, their absurdly paternalistic App market, a closed-down iPad, etc. I guess there's always been a bit of hypocrisy and self-contradiction [youtube.com] with Apple.

But when push comes to shove, I'm growing more convinced with the iPhone/iPad they really do see the future as being closed & proprietary. Google is the athlete running in swinging the hammer. And maybe it's Jobs' face on the big screen?

I guess Apple II isn't forever.

XML... (3, Insightful)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490144)

Oh, so this is the guy who designed that bloated markup language. Yeah, I can't wait to not care any less what his opinion of a phone is.

He's right, though...

Re:XML... (4, Funny)

nebaz (453974) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490276)

XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using it enough.

Thanks, kdawson! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490162)

You have provided us with yet another article worthy of slashdot's finest flamewarriors.

Instead of RTFA or reading the comments, I think I'll go pet some kittens.

Opinion of Google is Changing... (2, Interesting)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490178)

With this, my opinion of Google is now changing. I was a very large fan of Google and thought they were doing a fine balancing act between "making money" and "doing the 'right' thing." This, however, is turning things considerably ugly and is painting Google in a very unpleasant light. Mud-slinging is never pretty and often makes the slinger look worse than the target.

In case Google has forgotten, Apple has a lot of fans. Outright insulting Apple in this way forces people to decide, Apple or Google, and Google might not like the choice people make. After all, switching away from Apple means buying all new hardware and software. Switching away from Google just means typing in "www.bing.com".

I know which choice I'm going to be inclined to make in the future...

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (5, Insightful)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490266)

My opinion changed when they stopped releasing text-only copies of public domain works through Google Books.

I am rather concerned about Google and Apple, and primarily support alternatives.

I won't buy Apple products though and only grudgingly do business with Google these days.

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (2, Informative)

General Wesc (59919) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490336)

Outright insulting Apple in this way forces people to decide, Apple or Google

No, it really doesn't. I can still use products from both companies.

Switching away from Google just means typing in "www.bing.com".

I also use Google Reader, Google Docs, Google Voice, Google Calendar, Google Webmaster tools, Adsense, GMail, iGoogle, Blogger, and YouTube. I have a Picasa account, but don't really use it. I occasionally use Google Code Search.

And then there's the more relevant Google Android. I don't have it, but if I did, there's hardware right there.

(Oh, this post is written in Chromium--and at work I use Google Chrome.)

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (3, Informative)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490432)

Umm, Apple has been forcing people to decide for a really long time. I take it you didn't notice that the ITMS for a really long time didn't support any MP3 player that wasn't a variation of iPod. They didn't change the DRM scheme until after they had secured a strong monopoly position in that market space.

But I'm sure that's so much better than actively locking people out of your store while signing things up as exclusive.

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (1)

longhairedgnome (610579) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490498)

ITMS?

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (4, Informative)

tabdelgawad (590061) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490674)

You're missing context. See here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/technology/14brawl.html [nytimes.com]

Apparently, Apple considered Google's Android a stab in the back. So now Google's CEO (Eric Schmidt) is off Apple's board of directors and Apple is suing HTC for patent infringement (Google is not named, but is the indirect target).

I'm surprised this whole fight hasn't gotten more coverage on Slashdot. In any case, I'm squarely in Google's corner on this issue. We need Android to succeed to preserve competition and openness in the smart phone and tablet/e-reader markets.

Re:Opinion of Google is Changing... (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490732)

Mud-slinging is never pretty and often makes the slinger look worse than the target.

The sad thing is that this site has already seen that happen with Linux zealotry. I can't believe I'm watching this little bit of history repeat itself again. Who is going to take Android or any other OS seriously when people that like it actively call iPhone users 'iSheep' or say that the only reason they like their phone is because Steve Jobs tells them to?

I think this site would rather have flame wars than actually guide people towards Open Source.

Apple == Gay Nancy Boys (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490214)

Apple iFags.

Everybody be cool, this is a 'vangellery! (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490496)

When they make a movie of this, I hope they get Samuel Jackson to play Tim Bray. Of course they'll have to change a few of the words, and give him a revolver...

Show me the money... (0, Troll)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490518)

But how do you make money from the Android side.

idiot (0, Troll)

hiscross (1226636) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490532)

Who cares? Apple is a Capitalist company out to make as much money as it can, just like the rest. Giving away your hard work so others don't have to work is called socialism. Two words sum up socialism, screw that. Apple and anybody else should have to give away anything to anybody if they want to. It's that simple.

evil apple seems to have a hit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31490582)

We can bitch and moan about it all we want but that probably means we're not selling the cheesy $1 apps.

Sadly as much as I hate a closed, dictatorship like environment the entire iTunes/App Store has been extremely successful and probably will be for years. Obviously more folks like the false sense of security of what Apple provides through the app store compared to the ways of the past. I'm just baffled that MS or Apple haven't opened an app store for the desktops... How wonderful would that be to buy actual software that has been confirmed to work on your OS version, it's so linux like but without the word free. Sadly doing so might actually suck away open-source developers.

Wonder what how this will end up in 5 or 10 years.. Google the next apple, apple the next MS and MS the next google?

Re:evil apple seems to have a hit (1)

sbeckstead (555647) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490596)

More like MS is the next DEC

What he fails to understand (1)

Low Ranked Craig (1327799) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490608)

is that most users prefer a "walled garden" even if they don't know that's what it is. Most users only want to do a few things on their phone such as browse the web, read e-mail, text, and make calls. Most users want a dead simple, easy to understand interface. Like iTunes or hate it, it makes setting up your phone, managing media and applications brain-dead simple even while it is somewhat limiting.

Tim can rail against the iPhone all he wants to, but at the end of the day, all I have to say to him is check the current market share scoreboard. It's going to take more than a developer evangelist shitting on the competition to increase Android's market share.

Thus far the consumer has chosen, and they have chosen iPhone by a significant margin. There's a reason why the Droid is buy one get one free on Verizon, and it's not because it's outselling the iPhone.

Dont worry, Cancer will stopThe Landlord. (0, Troll)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490676)

OOOOOOOOH NO HE DIDNT!!! YES HE DID...

seriously...

cancer sucks.

no seriously...

it does...

I wish Mr Jobs good health.

and I like my iPhone.

But i'll gladly pay attention to anyone else offering something better... and I'm locked into iTunes so... It better be damn good.

Google hires a FUDster? Do only a little evil? (1)

guidryp (702488) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490680)

Something about this strikes me, as not very Google like.

I can figure out both the advantages/disadvantages of Apples model.

Does Google really need to hire someone to smear Apples model in Public.

I don't own any Apple product, so I don't think I qualify as an Apple fanboy, but I do respect the work of both companies.

But this really does lower Google a notch in my eyes, it is the kind of thing I expect Steve Balmer to say about the competition.

He just wants the sex and violence (1)

macsyrinx (1349955) | more than 4 years ago | (#31490708)

It’s a sterile Disney-fied walled garden surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The people who create the apps serve at the landlord’s pleasure and fear his anger. I hate it. I hate it even though the iPhone hardware and software are great

He just wants the sex and violence on a phone that he likes, and OS that he likes

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