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Homeowner Association Blocks Guests When Fees Go Unpaid

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the balance-of-power dept.

Idle 54

The Stoneybrook West homeowners association in Orlando, Florida is serious about collecting its fees. So serious in fact that the association will not let anyone coming to see Melissa Solis in the gated community. Solis has fallen behind on her association fees and now guards at the gated entrance to her neighborhood prevent her friends, family, babysitter and even the pizza man from going in to see her. Even Melissa's mother-in-law was banned from coming inside when she came for a family birthday party. Association lawyer Jim Gustino says, "We have to bring whatever lawful pressure that we have to bear on these folks. No one feels good about it, but it does result in collecting money. Many folks will, by some miracle, come up with the money they couldn't come up with before, because they don't want their family members to be denied entry."

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54 comments

What's Next? (2, Interesting)

Logical Zebra (1423045) | more than 3 years ago | (#31521764)

So if she still fails to pay the HOA fees, will the association next block her from entering her own neighborhood?

Re:What's Next? (3, Insightful)

amplt1337 (707922) | more than 3 years ago | (#31523354)

HOAs are pure evil.

And it amazes me that a country full of people that supposedly care about their freedoms and whatnot, will gleefully hand over their rights to boards governed by petty backyard Napoleons just so they can buy in an area where someone else mows the grass.

Re:What's Next? (3, Insightful)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 3 years ago | (#31524610)

It supposedly keeps the rabble out.

The theory is that you can force people to keep their homes maintained, which makes the area look prettier and thus raises your property value. This also keeps the crime out, and the gangs and rabble and unshaven unwashed masses.

The reality is the guy next door is still running a crack house. It's easy to force him out because you can go to the bank and get a lien on his house for his owed fees. Then when he doesn't pay further, you foreclose his house. But if he pays his fees or pays his lien, and you can't get enough evidence to get a police raid done (and the cops find stuff), you're still living with a drug dealer next door.

They don't supply any services except telling everyone else to not let their yard look like ass.

Re:What's Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31528778)

The theory is that you can force people to keep their homes maintained, which makes the area look prettier and thus raises your property value.

I want lower property value. That way I pay less property tax!

HOAs are a waste of money (1)

name_already_taken (540581) | about 4 years ago | (#31538552)

They don't supply any services except telling everyone else to not let their yard look like ass.

And, the problem is that if you buy in a nice enough area, everyone keeps their yards and houses looking nice anyway.

When I was shopping for a house after four years of living in a townhouse with an HOA, I told my realtor that any houses that were in a Homeowners' Association were unacceptable.

I bought a nice house in a nicer part of town - and because I'm not paying those fees I could afford a better house than if I had bought in an HOA development. The townhouse HOA fees were aproaching $200 a month, for what basically amounted to (albeit very professional) grass cutting. They didn't even do any of the much overdue building maintenance until the management company was bought out by someone who knew what they were doing, in the last year I was there.

Re:What's Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31564156)

They don't supply any services except telling everyone else to not let their yard look like ass.

And in many cities, there are ordinances and such that force you to not let your yard look like ass.

Re:What's Next? (1)

ImYourVirus (1443523) | about 4 years ago | (#31576058)

Only after it's approaching 8-12" in most places. Anything lower and it can look like complete shit, full of rocks or whatever, it could look like this in a HOA too, I know because I've seen one, it didn't break their rules either. The guy wanted to put a fence across he driveway and they wouldn't let him so he did whatever he could to make his yard look like shit within the rules, it's pretty funny looking too.

Re:What's Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31533366)

The conservatards that typically run HOAs are only worried about handing their rights over to somebody who might help brown and/or poor people.

They ARE evil. (1)

KingSkippus (799657) | about 4 years ago | (#31547076)

I am living in the first house I ever bought. When I bought it, I didn't realize what idiots HMAs are. If I ever buy another house, I am going to tell my realtor that I specifically want a house in a neighborhood in which there is no HMA, period.

About once every three or four months, I get nastygrams for stupid-ass made-up stuff. My shrubs are too high. (They aren't.) My mailbox pole is leaning. (It's not.) I need new pine straw around my house. (I don't.)

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that no matter how much I spend, no matter how well-kept my house is, I'm still going to get a nastygram for something. After all, the HMA management company must send these things out periodically to prove that they're worth being paid. So now, whenever I get a letter from them, I simply throw it away, sight unseen. I don't give a rat's ass what they have to say.

Every once in a blue moon, I actually consider running for president of our HMA. It's a job that no one really wants, and I'm pretty sure that if I made half an effort to convince my neighborhood that I want the job, I could get it. And then once I win, my first formal action would be to fire our HMA management company and tell everyone else that unless someone tries to do something like pave over their yard or put a jalopy up on blocks in the driveway, leave everyone the hell alone.

Re:They ARE evil. (1)

oldspewey (1303305) | about 4 years ago | (#31585706)

Lord help you if you ever try to hang your laundry in the fresh air outside in order to conserve a bit of electricity. HMAs go positively ballistic at the sight of a few t-shirts and denims hanging in the backyard of a house you own - never mind a pair of boxers.

Re:What's Next? (2, Insightful)

flyneye (84093) | about 4 years ago | (#31548894)

I don't even get my lawn mowed. I live in a middle class neighborhood that you couldn't tell from the next one. There is an HOA who dropped by a list of "suggestions" and guidelines for landscaping, lawnmowing, parking, placement of trash dumpsters, etc. It woulda been a real downer too, because I wanted to plant lots of fruit trees and berry bushes on my open property( a no no since it attracts birds who eat berries and sh*t purple on the cars), but then I caught the association head getting head from what appeared to be a youthful teen in his car in the driveway.I suggested that his wife may not be amused. Now I fortify my homebrew with 4 different types of raspberries, 2 kinds of blackberries, 3 kinds of grapes grow on my fences, apples, peaches and cherries are still 5or 6 years away. I can keep my old untagged broken truck in my drive till I get around to fixing it, guarded by at least a dozen pink flamingoes that line my driveway. I burn "free" mixed firewood in my shop, which smokes a little harsh and I mow my lawn when I get around to it. Napoleon wound up at Waterloo too.( Water + loo= flushable toilet) See there is Slack out there for Subgenii who have paid their small fee.

Re:What's Next? (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | about 4 years ago | (#31575190)

"And it amazes me that a country full of people that supposedly care about their freedoms and whatnot, will gleefully hand over their rights to boards governed by petty backyard Napoleons just so they can buy in an area where someone else mows the grass."

I've always wondered how these things can be made enforceable...

I mean, why hasn't some lawyer taken and challenged these things. Isn't there something about not being able to sign your rights away on certain things...etc?

Re:What's Next? (1)

BitterOak (537666) | about 4 years ago | (#31542594)

So if she still fails to pay the HOA fees, will the association next block her from entering her own neighborhood?

If you don't pay your rent, you get booted out. That's the way it's supposed to work. I don't know why they start by blocking guests though. It would make more sense to lock the tenant out.

Re:What's Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31546580)

HOA fees aren't rent. They're like taxes to a quasi-governmental organization.

Re:What's Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31578930)

HOA fees aren't rent. They're like taxes to a quasi-governmental organization.

Ah, so it's like union dues then? "For x dollars a month, we will keep ourselves in power in exchange for which you get a cold shoulder and a deaf ear."

Or is it more like protection money? "That's a nice house you bought, wouldn't want anything to happen to it..."

Re:What's Next? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31548252)

They're not tenants though. It's a Home Owner's Association. They're supposed to be peer organizations. In reality, I'm pretty sure most of them are just scams by the land developers to continue extracting money from people after they've sold them the property.

Re:What's Next? (2, Funny)

flyneye (84093) | about 4 years ago | (#31548810)

For a small fee, we will drive the van down to Fla. and disrupt this evil organization so Mellissa can get pizza again. Hannibal and Faceman will infiltrate the Association and get the goods on the hoods. I will be welding armor plating to the van and mounting .50 cal machine guns on top, so I pity the fool who doesn't open a gate for me. Murdock will get into a chicken costume and dynamite the gates anyway. In the end, the HOA will have to give back all their ill gotten gains and we will be eatin' pizza in Melissas living room before the credits roll.

HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31523616)

HOAs may be evil, but for some reason this person agreed to living with one. Either she agreed to the current fees or she agreed to honor their fee changes in the future.

Don't enter into agreements like this if you can't handle them. This woman agreed to pay, I don't see why it is wrong to deny service when she does not pay.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (2, Insightful)

WwonderLlama (512526) | more than 3 years ago | (#31524358)

Deny service, sure. But allowing guests in isn't a 'service'. Mowing your lawn: service. Plowing your driveway: service. Blocking your family from coming to a birthday party: DIS-service.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (2, Insightful)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 3 years ago | (#31524620)

HOAs don't supply any service. You plow your own driveway and mow your own lawn. HOAs just tell you what you can't do, like you can't have a pink mailbox because it looks like ass and lowers everyone else's property value because they live too close to a house with an ugly pink mailbox.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31524820)

What utter BS! If they don't provide some "service," then what pray tell are you paying for? *someone* has to pay for the guards at the gate.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

WwonderLlama (512526) | more than 3 years ago | (#31525770)

I believe that depends on your HOA. Around where I live, those fees also go for neighborhood cleanup (plowing/etc). I tend to agree that HOAs are evil. I looked at a few of them and decided "I'm buying this house, I'll do what I want with it." and avoided the HOA trap.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 3 years ago | (#31526180)

The HOA does 2 things 1) Maintain any "common areas", and 2) Enforce the CC&Rs you agreed to when you bought into that neighborhood. My HOA has a rule against external television antennnas; every house in the neighborhood (except mine) has a satellite dish. However, the HOA doesn't consider it worth paying a lawyer to enforce this (stupid) rule. They are there to discourage egregious violations which actually do lower everyone else's property values, not to nitpick about you parking your boat in your driveway for a few days.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (2, Interesting)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 3 years ago | (#31526406)

They can't enforce that rule because it's illegal due to the telecommunications act. Any satellite dish up to 1m in size can be used.

FCC rules trump HOA regarding antenna (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31534554)

decided sometimes in the 1990, they can't prevent you from getting satelite/radio

either they provide you an antenna, or you get to put one up

they can't stop you, supreme court ruling

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

TimFaraday (1736818) | about 4 years ago | (#31540318)

My HOA goes one step further. - Maintain common areas (pool, etc.) - Mow grass - shovel/plow streets (and driveways/sidewalks) when it snows - Insurance on the structure. I do live in a community where the majority of the houses are attached in some fashion so having a third party in charge of exterior maintenance is beneficial to all. I live alone and the yard is too small to do much with anyways. Basically, the tradeoff for me is that I don't have to worry about the outside of the house which is good since maintaining the interior on my own is about all I care to do. As other posters have said (and this holds true for everything), read what you are signing and determine if the benefits outweigh the costs. Whether $80 a month to the insurance company or $110 to the HOA for the same insurance plus the maintenance is worth it to you or not, your decision, but don't gripe when you are in violation of contract and don't like the consequences.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31548296)

So, pretty much, the home owners association exists to funnel money to a maintenance company owned by the original land developer.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

natehoy (1608657) | about 4 years ago | (#31574998)

If that. The HOA at one of the houses I rented once was only visible when someone parked a car in their driveway for more than 2 days in a row (pink sticker, $10 fine) or on the roadside overnight (blue sticker, $20 fine) or washed their car on a Sunday ($10 fine) or mowed their lawn before 8AM ($10 fine).

Other than that, the roads were never maintained, snowplowing (when applicable) was done by the city, and all maintenance was done by the homeowner and if the HOA noticed a problem before you did there was a $10 daily fine until whatever it was got fixed "to their satisfaction" which was legalese for "by them, at very inflated prices, which doubled if you DARED have another company do the work".

My house was owned by the developer, who also managed the HOA. He tried to fine me once for a stress crack in the sidewalk he built improperly on the property he owned. I don't recall my exact response, but it was really short, and contained the words "hell" and "no" in that order.

I'm not entirely sure what the $50/year HOA fee bought, other than the right to be fined. The common areas were full of construction debris and weeds. The roads had constant potholes, and the sidewalks were constantly cracking, and the only rules that were ever enforced were cosmetic ones that involved a fine or a forced repair with their affiliated repair company.

I vividly recall an X-Files episode that very accurately portrays HOAs in my mind. :)

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31574796)

My HOA has a rule against external television antennas

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html [fcc.gov]

Your HOA may have that rule, but it's meaningless because federal law prohibits such rules.

I had a friend who wanted to install a rooftop antenna, and he wanted help putting it up. He actually wasted a good deal of time trying to "be nice" to his HOA and asking for permission, but after 2-3 evenings wasted at meetings offering up plans he came to me in frustration and said he feared he had just wasted $150 on antenna gear.

I printed out the FCC sheet on a Wednesday and told him to continue to be polite and go to one last meeting, present them with the sheet, and offer them 24 hours to pen up whatever fluffy forms made them happy with their decision before he would call the FCC and file a grievance. The HOA worked up a long sheet of what colors the antenna and its cable were allowed to be, blah blah. He handed it to me, and I promised we would be in complete compliance with all valid rules. Then I installed the antenna properly and underlined the bits of the HOA "rules" I had violated for his reference, and told him to print out another copy of the FCC regs just in case he had to call.

I wanted to paint the goddamned thing safety orange when we were finally done dealing with the HOA, umm, "unpleasantness".

But, he invited me over to a few games in High Def (the only way to get HD in that area at the time, the cable companies wouldn't even offer it), so that made the hassle worthwhile.

I've rented houses under HOA restriction, and there's no way on this earth I'd buy a house covenanted by one.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

Logical Zebra (1423045) | more than 3 years ago | (#31528446)

HOAs don't supply any service. You plow your own driveway and mow your own lawn. HOAs just tell you what you can't do, like you can't have a pink mailbox because it looks like ass and lowers everyone else's property value because they live too close to a house with an ugly pink mailbox.

My HOA plows the court, mows my lawn, tends the shrubbery, etc. They have no real rules that I know of, other than not painting your house pink and such.

I realize this is the exception rather than the rule.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (3, Informative)

JesseMcDonald (536341) | more than 3 years ago | (#31528224)

The route from the community entrance to the driveway is presumably the HOA's property (as a "common area"). Permitting access to this property is a service which the HOA is within its rights to withhold. The means by which you and your guests approach your property is one of the things you have to think about before making a purchase. It's also something most people recklessly take for granted. If you don't have a clear property right (e.g. easement) in the ground you must cover to access your property, you'd best remain on good terms with those who do.

If you want to talk about the issues with HOAs, let's start with the way the terms supposedly attach to the property rather than the owner; i.e. the way that you—as the sole owner of the house and the land on which it's built—aren't permitted to sell your own property to anyone who doesn't also contract with the HOA. Of course, the new owner might end up needing a helicopter to get to their new home, but limited access shouldn't prevent you from selling it to them.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31570860)

HOAs are a tool for the property developer and builders. They are slow to build a subsection of 20-40 houses, they want to sell the plots as they build. They only want to ensure the sold units remain an advert while you're building is to invent crap like HOAs. Once a development area comes under this situation, there doesn't seem to be a way to scrap it. What's also a concern is many people actually like them. It's unfortunate that most of the decent 'burb areas are under HOAs. Not only do you have to pay these management companies a small fortune each year, you still pay a higher than non HOA property tax, and you have to pay for your own road upkeep, trash collection street lighting et al.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31576300)

The route from the community entrance to the driveway is presumably the HOA's property (as a "common area"). Permitting access to this property is a service which the HOA is within its rights to withhold.

Don't you buy a right of way over the common property with your land (which included RoW to people visiting) - that's the usual way it works over here in UK.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

jeko (179919) | about 4 years ago | (#31576486)

Works that way here too. The problem is the HOA currently has an armed guard working for it. Eventually, they'll lose in court, but there's not going to be any penalty for their bad behavior in the meantime.

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (1)

flyneye (84093) | about 4 years ago | (#31549010)

I agree, and a bit of chloroform or a needlefull of anaesthetic will take care of the guard at the gate, so Suzy can have a happy 8th birthday party. Droppin' a match in the guard shack isn't a bad idea either.( pull the guard out first unless you want barbeque at the B-day party.)

Re:HOAs may be evil, but she agreed to it (2, Informative)

flyneye (84093) | about 4 years ago | (#31548990)

Dunno what planet you are from, but here on Earth in a place called the U.S.A. when we buy a house it involves an agreement with more pages that Stephen Kings " The Stand" with print so small, ants can't read it and details that make Microsoft EULAs look fair and friendly. Nobody reads these, crap, it takes an hour and a half just to sign the damn thing,just flippin through the pages. HOAs can appear just about anywhere, even in my neighborhood. It's just as bad as the way we let politicians take away our rights with legislation and start an income tax over the last century. Just like boiling a frog, turn up the temp slooowly, froggy won't even notice till his eyes explode. Best advice, infiltrate and subvert an HOA from within and eventually dispose of it. It's an unamerican institution as the modern Democratic party, hellbent on ressurecting the old USSR business model (anyone notice that failed a while back?) Failing infiltration, open tactical warfare and thermonuclear intervention may be required to rid your neighborhood of these cockroaches.

govt shenanigans too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31525580)

I've observed orange county, CA putting up short sections of k-rail (aka jersey barriers) in front of driveways of people who don't pay their property taxes.

It is a contract (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31526124)

Purchasing a home in an HOA area comes with an explicit contractual obligation to pay the fees. If you don't want to pay according to the contract, don't buy there. If you can't pay for some reason try to work out an arrangement with the HOA or move. It's simple so stop whining when *your choices* put you in a bind.

HOA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#31527772)

Make no mistake if i were that home owner i would burn it down walk in the off of that mot_er fu_ker and shoot him in the fuc_ing face and call the cops myself With my di_k still in his eye socket.

Re:HOA (1)

clone53421 (1310749) | about 4 years ago | (#31542820)

Why on earth did you feel the need to restrain yourself from spelling out bad words like “fuck” and “dick” when you were in the process of posting that rant?

Communists (2, Insightful)

Moof123 (1292134) | more than 3 years ago | (#31530466)

HOA's are voluntary communism. I'm amazed to see folks who rant about freedom and liberty only to choose to live in one of these distopian cookie cutter "communities" full of conformist rules. Thanks to private security, they are like mini police states.

I made a conscious decision to buy a place where I could paint my house without getting approval from a committee. I have not regretted it, despite having one dirtbag neighbor with a bunch of dead and dying cars. It is worth it.

Re:Communists (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31540374)

Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The term you are looking for is fascism. A different form of tyranny, I mean government.

Re:Communists (2, Interesting)

Qzukk (229616) | about 4 years ago | (#31540614)

The problem is that the "land of the free" keeps on shrinking. I'm watching that out of my office window as we speak: street after street of little houses of varying quality (some are well kept, some with rotting roofs and dead cars in the yard) being bought up and demolished to make room for tall, skinny rows of townhomes. You can bet those townhomes have HOAs, even the ones being squeezed in between the dingy trailer home and the quaint little house that's still painted like a candy cane from Christmas.

The next step. . . (1)

Fantastic Lad (198284) | about 4 years ago | (#31546970)

Siege engines?

Boiling oil?

Invaders at the Gate?

This is the result of rampant competitiveness; you end up with a country filled with a small handful of Winners and a ton of Slaves.

Nice. What a great way to live.

Or you could move to Canada where neighbors treat each other with a modicum of respect and compassion and you don't need to own a gun because you're not terrified of getting attacked.

Of course, Canada has been sliding, but at least it has a bit more of that bedrock of sanity upon which its brand of Snow Hobbit happens to breed.

-FL

Re:The next step. . . (1)

operagost (62405) | about 4 years ago | (#31571796)

Or you could move to Canada where neighbors treat each other with a modicum of respect and compassion and you don't need to own a gun because you're not terrified of getting attacked.

Or you not make up ridiculous xenophobic straw men. We aren't even talking about guns here. This is about HOA, which are voluntary. When I was looking for a house, those with HOAs were summarily eliminated from consideration.

Re:The next step. . . (1)

Fantastic Lad (198284) | about 4 years ago | (#31580672)

Or you not make up ridiculous xenophobic straw men.

Done!

Problem is. . . It's not all that ridiculous, is it?

Sigh.

It's not the people who steer me towards xenophobic tendencies. It's the particular flavor of social programming and resulting group behaviors which allows the rampant sociopathy to have its way with the world at large.

But like I said, the same thing occurs up here. It's just less. Probably because there's only 10% of the populace as compared to the U.S. and the same approximate space to put everybody. If the lunatics annoy, you have plenty of room to back up.

-FL

X-Files (1)

sjames (1099) | about 4 years ago | (#31560734)

I can't help recalling the episode of the X-Files where Mulder and Scully investigate an HOA. Perhaps this woman should consider a koi pond...

Re:X-Files (1)

supenguin (1756864) | about 4 years ago | (#31571746)

I'm reminded of that episode so many times. The HOA in my neighborhood will fine you if your grass gets over a certain height or you leave your trash can out in front of the house for too long (over 2 days after trash pickup). It was my first house and I didn't really know what the HOA did besides making sure everyone had nice looking houses. When the weather is nice, you'll see a couple people wandering the streets with clipboards in hand and stern looks on their faces. When the weather is nasty, you never see them and no one gets fined for anything.

Of course, it is really hard for them to enforce the rules in the houses that have been foreclosed & families moved out.

Re:X-Files (1)

Volante3192 (953645) | about 4 years ago | (#31586546)

It's not a swimming pool, it's a reflecting pool! There's nothing in your guidelines about reflecting pools. They're very tranquil, you'll like it.

On the other hand (1)

InsertCleverUsername (950130) | about 4 years ago | (#31568166)

I just moved from a condo with a COA to a free-standing house with no HOA and I couldn't be happier. I really won't miss dealing with would-be dictators and arbitrarily applied rules while paying $300/month in association dues for the privilege. But on the other hand, one reason our dues were so high was because of neighbors not paying their share. Some places were foreclosed or abandoned (and banks won't pay the dues) and then there were assholes who just stopped paying dues --yet were able to buy luxury cars and display other conspicuous consumption. I think there needs to be some compassion in HOAs, but I can't stomach paying for scumbags (and banks) that are perfectly capable, but taking advantage of others instead.

Take it over from the inside` (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | about 4 years ago | (#31581224)

That is what I did with a small group of friends from the neighborhood. We have 112 townhome units and a board with 4 officers. Three of us ran for the board and won our respective elections, and now we live in a more free neighborhood. We tore out the childrens playground and installed a dog park. We got rid of the swimming pool that cost $30K/year to maintain and was only used by the illegal daycare facility that one of the residents was running (which we also got rid of). We got rid of all the slimy backroom deals the former board had cut with their various family members' businesses (landscaping, snow removal, garbage, etc). We cut the cost of operating the property by 50% in the first year just by getting rid of the kickbacks.

Re:Take it over from the inside` (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 years ago | (#31586648)

why not just abolish it ? you have control over it until the next election. just kill it.

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