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China Criticizes Google's "US Ties"

CmdrTaco posted more than 4 years ago | from the why-can't-we-just-be-friends dept.

Google 280

krou writes "State-run news agency Xinhua has attacked what it calls Google's 'intricate ties with the US government' amongst its high level officials, claiming that it's 'an open secret that some security experts in the Pentagon are from Google.' They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it. Xinhua said that 'One company's ambition to change China's internet rules will only prove to be ridiculous.' Google has denied the claims. Google spokeswoman Jessica Powell said that 'The decision to review our business in China was entirely Google's and Google's alone.'"

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Let's not forget (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31566776)

that while some Internet users in certain Western countries may see the Internet as something which exists independently of society and is merely a medium through which two individuals may communicate, from the Chinese POV it is a part of society and therefore allowed to be controlled.

To be totally honest, I agree with the Chinese POV, since $People \in Society$ and $Internetusers \subset Society$.

Re:Let's not forget (5, Insightful)

ircmaxell (1117387) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567202)

I disagree with that POV. The internet is its own society which is free from cultural and geological borders. That's the power of the Internet. The fact that EVERYONE is equal, irregardless of their location, political beliefs, language, religion, etc, etc, etc makes it it's own society. When a country tries to limit or control the internet, it is either because they don't understand it, or they fear it. This is especially true in cultures of control such as China and Iran. They are afraid of the internet, because it gives people access to a truly free society. The failure here is that almost no government believes that the Internet is a sovereign society.

Re:Let's not forget (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567354)

irregardless of their location

Exactly!

Re:Let's not forget (1)

mrclisdue (1321513) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567430)

ibid

Re:Let's not forget (4, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567610)

Isn't Xinhua correct in this though? There's no lies - Google tried to change Chinese society and bring American values in it, just like is done in Iraq but only with military.

This is nothing new, the same has been done with Hollywood and other mass culture for long time. Just play Civilization - you can spread your culture and slowly your enemies cities will want to join you.

Re:Let's not forget (5, Interesting)

denobug (753200) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568420)

Not really. Xhinhua is politicizing the situation where Google is attempting to receive protection from it OWN government when being intruded upon. Why is it a bad thing for Google to ask NSA for security assistance when their high profile account is being hacked with possible traces to the Chinese government? I am not saying Chinese government has a hand in it but the suspicion should warrant Google to seek governmental help to pin point the issue and prevent additional attack from happening.

Let's not forget Google is a US registered company with headquarter in California. Their stock is listed in US stock exchange. They pay taxes to US government. Seeking help and protection from your own government is well within their rights as a US company.

Further I don't think China has any leg on the issue either since they actively help their own industries and private companies with ties. It's all just a Publicity Stunt to keep its own citizen from sympathizing Google by playing a patriotic card.

Re:Let's not forget (5, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567512)

I disagree with that POV. The internet is its own society which is free from cultural and geological borders. That's the power of the Internet. The fact that EVERYONE is equal, irregardless of their location, political beliefs, language, religion, etc, etc, etc makes it it's own society. When a country tries to limit or control the internet, it is either because they don't understand it, or they fear it. This is especially true in cultures of control such as China and Iran. They are afraid of the internet, because it gives people access to a truly free society. The failure here is that almost no government believes that the Internet is a sovereign society.

Is this why US law like DMCA is imposed to me even while I don't live in US? Google removes results based on DMCA notices on all of their sites, not just google.com.

China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?

Judging by how this is modded up... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567932)

...I'd say ignorance abounds on slashdot today, much as every day.

Re:Let's not forget (3, Insightful)

forand (530402) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568028)

Not sure what your point is; both are horrible for the internet at large. Saying that China is doing something similar to something the USA is doing does not make either OK.

Re:Let's not forget (3, Interesting)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568236)

The point is that both countries have their own view on what is allowed and what is not. The difference is that China only restricts it inside it's own country, while US tries to enforce their view all over the world (with ACTA too). It maybe doesn't make it OK, but in my view it's still a lot better when you aren't trying to enforce your views to people of other countries.

Re:Let's not forget (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568030)

USA tries to control the whole Internet.

Well, we did fkn build it. If you don't like it, you can bring your own fkn ball next game.

Re:Let's not forget (4, Insightful)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568066)

Google isn't the internet. Google is a US company, and it's subject to US laws. Nobody is stopping US citizens from visiting websites run by non-US companies, which would not be subject to US laws. In China, however, you would simply be prevented from viewing any site that was not controlled (explicitly, by law, or by some other agreement) by the Chinese government.

The US is trying to control the world through treaties and trade agreements, not by web censorship.

Re:Let's not forget (4, Insightful)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568180)

If you think the US has never taken down a foreign website you are sadly mistaken.

Re:Let's not forget (2, Insightful)

blackraven14250 (902843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568246)

Mod this up!

Despite the internet being community without boundaries, each individual is still part of a physical, bounded community, and is thus still subject to the physical community's rules, despite what many people seem to think.

Re:Let's not forget (1)

ubermiester (883599) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568146)

China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?

First of all, the US is not trying to "control the internet". All it is doing (albeit with a heavy hand at the expense of consumers), is to control certain commercial transactions that, arguably, skirt the law. Stopping someone from downloading copies of a U2 album that they in no way paid for is in no way the same thing as trying to stop someone from reading about the Tienanmen Square protests or sending emails about democracy. How can you compare the two?

And even if your point is that control of any kind is bad, are you suggesting that selling poached Ivory or distributing kiddie porn should be allowed as long as the transaction is completed online? Sounds like a principle without the application of common sense.

Re:Let's not forget (3, Insightful)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568182)

You do realize that, although you're not in the US, Google does. If you don't want to be restricted by US laws, maybe you shouldn't use the services of a North-American company...

Re:Let's not forget (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568312)

Sorry, Google _is_. As you see, I'm not from the US either :|

Re:Let's not forget (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568486)

So what is a good search engine these days with a more unfiltered internet?

Re:Let's not forget (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568224)

Is this why US law like DMCA is imposed to me even while I don't live in US? Google removes results based on DMCA notices on all of their sites, not just google.com.

China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?

Let me point out one thing: It ain't the US that tries to control the internet but rather the businesses that are using US law. Add in the fact that Google is a US company, based in the US and subject to US law and you can understand why Google has to be careful when they are issued a DMCA notice. If you don't like it, no one is making you use Google.

Re:Let's not forget (1)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567558)

lots of politicians are 50+ years old (most). They don't want nor do they even try to understand technology.

Those folks will need to die of old age before they put an effort in understanding the internet. So don't expect that to change soon.

Re:Let's not forget (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567848)

Oh come on, you hippie. The internet is a bunch of wires and peering agreements, no more, no less. You are not the internet or a part thereof. The internet is not a society. You may think of the people who use the internet as an international, maybe even transnational group, but people have to live somewhere and as long as that somewhere is controlled by a nation state, that nation state can control their internet access. There are very few truly global rules, but one of them is that sovereign nations can make their own rules governing their own country. There is no right for anyone to go to another country and tell them the local rules suck so he's going to ignore them. That will get you kicked out of the country, land you in jail or get you killed no matter where you try it. If Google wants to do business in China, it will have to do so following Chinese rules. The question is, does Google want to do business in China and should they.

Re:Let's not forget (5, Insightful)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568170)

The internet is its own society which is free from cultural and geological borders.

This video [youtube.com] contains content from Sony Pictures, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

WAS free. Past tense. And prepare for ACTA, this is only getting worse.

Re:Let's not forget (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568294)

What I'm curious about is if google.cn will be censored when google puts an explanation of its absence on the front page.

Re:Let's not forget (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568368)

So you are saying that local law should not apply to people on the internet? That means someone should be allowed to threaten to kill you and your entire family because the internet is its own society that shouldn't be controlled by government.

If you don't think that should be allowed, then where are the laws of the internet? Who makes them and who enforces them?

Re:Let's not forget (2, Informative)

Teun (17872) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567360)

The fact that society (including the internet) can be controlled and is controlled is no excuse for western companies to cooperate with the Chinese version of control.
I would go as far as to say a company that wants to be credible to their western customers can't possibly be compliant with present day Chinese restrictions re. freedom of information.
It looks to me Google finds it difficult to console their 'Do no Evil' morality with the Chinese instructions for complete government control.

Along the same line I'm very happy with the recent EU decision to outlaw export of Internet filtering technology to countries where it's used dumb down the general population.

Re:Let's not forget (4, Informative)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567708)

so let me get this straight: google, which is located in the us, is being complained about for having connections in the US? And this is coming from the chinese news, which is located in china, and has connections with China? ror.

Re:Let's not forget (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568490)

ror.

lacist asshore!

Re:Let's not forget (1, Insightful)

denobug (753200) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568216)

that while some Internet users in certain Western countries may see the Internet as something which exists independently of society and is merely a medium through which two individuals may communicate, from the Chinese POV it is a part of society and therefore allowed to be controlled.

To be totally honest, I agree with the Chinese POV, since $People \in Society$ and $Internetusers \subset Society$.

If you are agreeing with Chinese POV, why are you posting as AC? Don't you want to be monitored and controlled and being praised to be patriotic? The simple fact is that everyone online in China are subject to searches and lack of privacy. Any government or any special interest groups outside of the government with enough favors with the government can find you and harrass you. You have no protection when attempting to raise a different voice.

The fact that you are posting as AC tells me you either don't understand what you are saying, or you are a hypocrite who don't practice nor believe what you just said.

Re:Let's not forget (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568252)

I agree with it too. It is disgusting how many countries the USA tries to impose their values upon.

Can't be (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31566784)

They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it

When Chinese manufacturing firms outsource their core labor to the US then that might be true.

Re:Can't be (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31566980)

If country A allows country B to do their labour for them, then that labour cannot be important enough to A so as to ensure it is done in A. The very fact that B was allowed to do it at all shows that A does not care who does it.

Re:Can't be (4, Insightful)

WindowlessView (703773) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567814)

Bah. As if in the US's case the "country" has anything to say about it. China has some notion of "country" and keeps its companies aware of it. The US is owned lock, stock and barrel by corporations who throw around terms like country and patriotism when it is convenient for them - usually when they need some cannon fodder and tax payer funding to defend or acquire what is in their corporate interest.

Re:Can't be (4, Informative)

msoftsucks (604691) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567928)

That's not what is happening here. What's really happening is that the last 12 years of giving the rich tax breaks and giving them free money has caused them to be even more greedy. Instead of reinvesting that money in America, they fired all their American workers and closed down the American factories and opened new ones in China. They started off saying that only the low-skilled work will be moved, to where they are now moving engineering and higher level skills. And they are trying to hide that they are doing this. Just look at IBM recently saying that they will stop reporting employee levels by country. The rich don't care if they destablize America and get a little dirty working with a dictatorship because the were already dirty making their money in the US. The movement of jobs doesn't indicate that people don't care about these jobs, it shows that the rich have no allegance to any country and are killing America for greed. Plain and simple.

Google is Big Brother (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31566804)

People who think Google is doing that for human rights are naive.

It is like people who are thinking USA went to Irak for the weapons of mass destructions....

Re:Google is Big Brother (1)

dazjorz (1312303) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567810)

Yeah, or like people who think the moon landing actually happened... Heh, those idiots.

Well, yeah. (2, Insightful)

Carik (205890) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566806)

Of course Google is trying to impose "American Values" on China. As it stands, they can't gain enough power to control things there. If China becomes more like America, then Google (and other companies) will have a bigger say in the government, and will be able to make more money.

Is it a surprise to anyone that that's what they're trying to do?

Re:Well, yeah. (0, Troll)

krou (1027572) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567242)

Modded to 0 troll after having 5 insightful? What the hell? Nice to see modding being used to stifle debate.

Re:Well, yeah. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567674)

Karma is a fickle bitch.

Re:Well, yeah. (4, Insightful)

ultranova (717540) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567268)

Of course Google is trying to impose "American Values" on China. As it stands, they can't gain enough power to control things there. If China becomes more like America, then Google (and other companies) will have a bigger say in the government, and will be able to make more money.

Yes, obviously. It can't possibly have anything to do with Google's value coming from allowing people access to information and Chinese government's power coming from denying people access to information. Clearly, this is not about Chinese government wanting to keep its Ministry of Truth running and Google being a threat to that, but instead it's about Google trying to control Chinese government.

I guess every puppetmaster's worst nightmare is for the strings to get cut...

Good grief! (4, Funny)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566808)

China is taking its lead from North Korea on the propaganda front?

spin baby spin (2, Interesting)

Weezul (52464) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567244)

Google only ever had one small bit of leverage when negotiating with China : Chinese citizens know that Google is more legit & honest than Badu. We're totally unsurprised that Chia spins away this leverage.

Re:Good grief! (1)

chthon (580889) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567324)

Yeah, moderated funny...

But seeing that the North Korean invasion was done with massive help of China, it is more that North Korea learned the art of propaganda from the Chinese.

Didn't the Chinese call Tibet a dictatorial theocracy before they invaded^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hliberated it ?

Well, they have had 3000 years to perfect the art of lying^H^H^H^H^Hpropaganda^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiplomacy.

Re:Good grief! (1)

teg (97890) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568308)

Didn't the Chinese call Tibet a dictatorial theocracy before they invaded^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hliberated it ?

Calling for China to cease their occupation and Chinesification of Tibet doesn't make the above claim untrue. Religious rule [michaelparenti.org] and serfdom [wikipedia.org] doesn't exactly make it good place even before the occupation. That the current situation is bad, doesn't make the past good.

Re:Good grief! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567600)

Nah, more like little children who's egos are hurt...

Google: Let's play, here, I brought a ball.
China: Cool! *plays with ball, then hits Google*
Google: Hey, that was mean! I'm taking my ball and going home!
China: Oh? Oh yeah? That's fine! I didn't want your stinking ball! It's a stinky ball! I bet your mom chose it, cause adults aren't cool, and it's an ugly ball!
Google: No she didn't! It's my ball!

Maybe accidental propaganda, but this is mostly posturing to avoid an ego loss because they chased the biggest search provider to the rest of the world, the world they so desperately want to be respected by, out of their country.

Re:Good grief! (3, Insightful)

Col. Klink (retired) (11632) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567850)

Xinhua is state run, so accusing a google of being a puppet of the government is kind of silly. Anyways, Chinese propaganda used to be a lot like the USSR's Pravda or KNCA [kcna.co.jp] today, but it's not quite that extreme anymore. That probably makes it more effective. I mean, don't people begin to catch on after 50 years of weekly "the west will experience nuclear armageddon at our hands" rants?

"The matchless fighting spirit of the leader, who continued the forced march of high intensity to vibrant hard-fought fields for an upsurge throughout the year, burning his heart with noble love of his country and fellow people, gave free rein to the mental strength of all the service personnel and people and worked world-startling miracles across the country." -- KCNA, http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201001/news01/20100101-08ee.html [kcna.co.jp]

um wot? (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31566826)

wots, uh... the deal?

4 Months ago... (2, Insightful)

Drethon (1445051) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566832)

US Criticizes Google's 'Chinese Ties'

At least thats how it seems. Can't please everyone so its better to do what feels right for you (for most companies what feels right seems to be what is most profitable).

Re:4 Months ago... (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567692)

US Criticizes Google's 'Chinese Ties'

Well in their defense, almost everything is made in China, including ties. I think their 'casual' dress policy is provides enough intent that the "Dont be evil" policy is still applicable.

OMG. Thank you, China. (3, Funny)

Jawn98685 (687784) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566842)

My government is using the Internet to spy on me? Who knew?

No NSA behind Google? (3, Interesting)

kubitus (927806) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566848)

Logic says can not be:

:

Secret Services/Intelligence must get information

there is information in the internet

where is information seeked for: in search enghines

to know what is searched for you ought to sit behind a search engine, best Google

and you can then also influence what is being found

much cheaper than Echelon

And in the answer streams from a search engine one can embedd other things such as trojans etc...

QED

Re:No NSA behind Google? (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566954)

The largest source of intelligence has nothing to do with covert activity or super secret spy satellites. It has to do with general information that is easy for anyone to get and always has been. It's even more true with the Internet now.

Reminds me of that bit in Doctor Strangelove where the Russian ambassador says he knew that the U.S. was working on a doomsday weapon and when Muffley denies it he says his source was the New York Times.

Preventing the Chinese elite from getting info from Google is probably a bigger problem to them than any of us can realize.

Re:No NSA behind Google? (1)

kubitus (927806) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567700)

continuation of the logic chain -

-

please tell me where it snaps:

being an intelligence institution, I look at the Echelon bill and sratch my head!

then I ask: how can I avoid wading through the communication nonsense and find the needle in the haystack?

I got to the manufacturer of routers and other network devices and ask them:

please put this little piece of code into your machine. You do not need to know that this is a Trojan Boot Loader (TBL )

And BTW please hand us over the list of serial number together who bougth them.

-

then as an intelligence agency, I send a Trojan to the router of this governement, or that industry.

much more efficient than having to sieve through all that noise in the Internet and Telephone carriers!

Do we have to hear about every piece of propaganda (3, Insightful)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566904)

???

If I wanted to read chinese propagada, I would go to the source:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/ [peopledaily.com.cn]

Re:Do we have to hear about every piece of propaga (4, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567146)

???

If I wanted to read chinese propagada, I would go to the source:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/ [peopledaily.com.cn]

You know, I wish I 1) spoke some variant of Chinese and 2) knew more about Chinese media outlets. I wrote a journal post [slashdot.org] about this situation back when it was developing and tried to find a diverse viewpoint in Chinese news related to Google's ultimatum. It turned out to be more humorous and an exercise in futility than anything else. Does anyone who speaks the language know of a 'subversive' news source out of China? Or anything at all offering balanced and multiple views in the reporting? All I see is multiple sources looking like they are offering you unbiased news when, in fact, they are regurgitating something to you that is within a government approved standard deviation of the government approved message.

Really, really sad. Also a stark reminder of how thankful I should be of the diversity of our press in the United States no matter how sorry it may look at times ...

Re:Do we have to hear about every piece of propaga (-1, Troll)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568022)

Go become a regular at chinahush.com. They need more gawking morons like you to round out their site. Either that or zonaeuropa.com.

Re:Do we have to hear about every piece of propaga (1)

samkass (174571) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568088)

NPR did a couple of interviews with Chinese bloggers and internet publishers. They were fighting for less Chinese Government restrictions, but even they started one sentence with: "Obviously, the Government needs to protect some people from dangerous information, but..." I haven't heard many native Chinese express the belief that a completely Government-unfiltered communications system is a fundamental right or even something that's unquestionably a good thing on the balance. It's those kinds of attitudes, though, that make me think that China is currently where Japan was in the 80's, and will have a self-limiting success as they run out of Western technology to copy and have trouble creating their own in a communication-stifled society.

Hello, China, reality calling (5, Insightful)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 4 years ago | (#31566918)

Google is behaving far more ethically than the State Department. If they were really Pentagon puppets, they'd be more concerned with trying to add 2% to the value of the Yuan rather than with trivial little things like free speech and political freedom.

Re:Hello, China, reality calling (1)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567308)

Lets not lose track of reality here. Google likely doesnt give a shit about whether china is free or not any more than the rest of us do, they're really trying to leverage business success against an incredibly massive weight of public opinion and a slightly less massive though largely unseen morass of law and regulations.

Better Internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567038)

You ever get the idea that we need a better Internet anyway? After all a nation shouldn't have that much control over what goes in/out. If an ISP can throttle what you download even here, and can have rooms where it can be parsed for government use tells me no more ISP would be the first piece of the puzzle.

China is naive (5, Insightful)

testadicazzo (567430) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567046)

China needs to learn that in the U.S. the corporations run the state, not the other way around.

Re:China is naive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567156)

Indeed.

Can I just be one of the many who say: FUCK CHINA

Re:China is naive (1)

easyTree (1042254) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567654)

In communist america, china fucks you.

Re:China is naive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567376)

What they need to learn is that they don't have enough strength to fight American propaganda machines.

Re:China is naive (1)

blackraven14250 (902843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568398)

What they need to learn is that we don't have, or need, propaganda machines. We can look at their news for ourselves and see how ridiculous what they're saying is, or how true it is.

^ One of the many advantages of a free internet.

Why is this on Slashdot? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567062)

So... A government controlled news entity IN CHINA is reporting dirt about google to the Chinese people. Why the heck is this news?

Re:Why is this on Slashdot? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567174)

Because China now understands that the hacking allegations made by Google were part of the bigger US propaganda.

Re:Why is this on Slashdot? (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568218)

Because this is what China is telling their people. In China all press is government controlled. Media is used to control society (good thing that could never, ever happen in the USA, no all our media is unbiased except for that one EEEEVIL TV station called Fox) and China knows it. To us, the story is China broke into Google.com and spraypainted "China Rul3z!" all over human rights activists email accounts. Google is rightly angry about this and is pulling out of China in response.

China puts their own bias on the story (oops, sorry, only one TV station does that, all the rest are objective). The story is "Google is an evil American company that wants that horrible freedom for China. In addition, they are incapable of following Chinese laws. They are foreign invaders out to destroy Chinese culture just like the Eight Nations and should be dealt with strongly. WTO says China has to open its markets in a legal sense, but we Chinese will make it impossible to continue business here. Crush foreigners and sell their assets to Chinese companies for a song!" Mark my words, this story will play out again and again in coming years, as foreign companies are taxed, legally harassed, and otherwise driven out of China - legally, of course. China didn't kick Google out, but merely made it impossible for them to continue.

One of the reasons modern Westerners find it so difficult to understand China is that the Chinese government actually has their own nation's welfare in mind. Western governments rarely intentionally represent their people, and as a matter of fact great lengths are gone to to subvert the legislative process at all levels. China represents its own interests, which causes some people's heads to explode in confusion. But one thing modern Westerners and China can agree on is that their nation's common people are idiots cannot possibly govern themselves, but need to be ruled.

Re:Why is this on Slashdot? (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568332)

So... A government controlled news entity IN CHINA is reporting dirt about google to the Chinese people. Why the heck is this news?

Yeah, why are things happening in other country news?

"So, the earth IN HAITI is dropping houses on the Haitian people. Why the heck is this news?"

Why is that tripe modded up? Every thread, EVERY THREAD some troll comes along demanding to know why this is news. Ignore them, or mod them down, but don't mod it up: It's noise! Just noise.

Ho ho ho. (3, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567108)

While it would not at all surprise me if the relationship between aspects of the US intelligence apparatus and aspects of google is rather cozy(they'd merely be joining the long list of data broker companies for which that is true*cough* ChoicePoint, *cough* Acxiom, *cough*AT&T); it takes real chutzpah for a country where enterprises owned outright by the state and/or military are common, standard practice, to start moralizing about the shady and nebulous ties between google and America's spook infestation.

Re:Ho ho ho. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567658)

it takes real chutzpah for a country where enterprises owned outright by the state and/or military are common, standard practice, to start moralizing about the shady and nebulous ties between google and America's spook infestation.

What's the Chinese equivalent of chutzpah? I'm imagining instead of a mindset "my balls are huge" it's more like "I can't possibly be wrong".

unalienable rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567124)

apply to the chinese whatever their govt says.

This is so incredibly saddening and angering, but (2, Insightful)

judolphin (1158895) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567128)

As ridiculous as this is, at least they're fabricating crap in order to keep out a search engine, instead of fabricating crap in order to start a war.

People in power do whatever they want. It usually works. On the rare occasion it doesn't, it makes the history books.

Whoda thunkit? (1)

KnownIssues (1612961) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567170)

A US-based company, full of US citizens, acting to further the interests of the US. No shit Sherlock!

Don't worry China. As soon as you become enough of a consumer nation that Google's advertising-based model is overwhelmingly profitable for them in China, they'll have to bow to their stockholders, who won't be able to stop from salivating over your billions of consumers.

Until then, your whining makes us all feel good about ourselves, as we all secretly fear we're getting the same propoganda from our own government (regardless of political party).

Re:Whoda thunkit? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567420)

As soon as you become enough of a consumer nation that Google's advertising-based model is overwhelmingly profitable for them in China, they'll have to bow to their stockholders, who won't be able to stop from salivating over your billions of consumers.

I know I will be modded down as a troll, but commercializing China has been a goal in European culture since Roman times. Countless historical episodes have occurred while trying to do that, including
Marco Polo
Discovery of America
European colonialism
Japan got opened up

etc

Re:Whoda thunkit? (2, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567526)

The best propaganda is based on truth. Of course Google wants to impose American values on the world - Sergey Brin is a US immigrant who moved to America precisely because he thinks American values are a good thing. Google publicly asked the NSA for help securing its network, so the 'ties' between Google and US intelligence are not exactly secret and, given that the NSA and Google are the two largest employers of data mining specialists in the USA, it wouldn't be at all surprising if both employ quite a few people that have worked at the other.

Re:Whoda thunkit? (5, Interesting)

Stargoat (658863) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567760)

I'm not sure Google is actively working to further the interests of the US. Instead, Chinese leadership is incapable of appreciating the differences between US policy, US culture, and plain ole' innate freedoms. Chinese leadership sees everything through a Han cultural perspective, with everyone not Han is either a strong barbarian intent upon conquering China or a weak barbarian who should be conquered by China.

One company's ambition (4, Insightful)

thej1nx (763573) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567200)

If one company's ambition change China's internet rules will only prove to be ridiculous, why is a China government run news agency so frantically issuing statements on the issue?

It is just one company, right? In theory they shouldn't even be taking notice...

If they had actually expected to come out fully unscathed from this, they would have not even blinked.

China's censorship system had worked so far only because the Chinese always had options/alternatives when blocked from sites containing "dangerous ideas". The Chinese public simply accepted the government explanation. But Google, as the world's leading search engine, is something that is pretty much an inherent part of internet. Blocking a valuable internet resource requires much more rationalization, which is exactly what has the Chinese government sweating. It will be much harder to sell to the internet-using Chinese public. As such, this actually can lead to a relaxing of censorship in China. If not, it will lead to a realization on the part of Chinese public as to how they are actually visibly suffering by tolerating a non-democratic fascist state. Both are the first baby steps on the road to self-determination and freedom for the people in China.

Sadly, the said Chinese government is banking on having an alternative in competing search engines such as that of Microsoft. If Microsoft fails to follow Google's example, it will now actually be actively working to keep the seeds of democracy out of China.

Not that Microsoft, would be interested in anything apart from its profit line, considering it doesn't really believes in any kind of business ethics.

Re:One company's ambition (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568410)

If one company's ambition change China's internet rules will only prove to be ridiculous, why is a China government run news agency so frantically issuing statements on the issue?

To make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you repeat it enough, people will believe it.

hate them, but there's some truth (3, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567204)

Yes, we all love to hate the chinese. But there's some truth in there. The US is aggressively exporting its values and believes to the entire world, and it isn't asking if anyone wants it. Hollywood is the biggest propaganda machine ever, far more subtle and effective than any Nazi or Soviet Russian government efforts. And yes, Google is part of a culture as much as it is a company, and is bringing that culture to the world.

Most of the world is eating it up. A lot of people welcome it. Few of them made a conscious decision among alternatives on the matter of culture and spirit.

I'm not debating if the US culture is "good" or "bad" here, just stating the fact that the amount of culture that is in the american way of doing business is seldom reflected.

Re:hate them, but there's some truth (2, Insightful)

thej1nx (763573) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567378)

Screw US.

If US does the right thing, even for selfish motives, how does that make the said "right thing" to be wrong?

Since when did the right to self-determination, freedom of expression and thought, freedom to not be oppressed by a fascist state, become wrong?

Your argument is like saying "Oh my god, that guy who pushed that child out of the way of a speeding car, is reputed to be a bully. That child should not have been saved by him! How can you guys accept this?".

Notice the flaw in such an argument?

Re:hate them, but there's some truth (1)

easyTree (1042254) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567790)

Except that there is some debate as to what the right thing is in this case - the chinese government wants to protect its people from goatse etc... probably in addition to other ommissions. Who are we to say that freedom to be goatse-rolled is a human right?

Re:hate them, but there's some truth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568190)

"If US does the right thing, even for selfish motives, how does that make the said "right thing" to be wrong?"

It seems you need to do research into Kantian morality. It's the maxim that matters, not the outcome.

"Your argument is like saying "Oh my god, that guy who pushed that child out of the way of a speeding car, is reputed to be a bully. That child should not have been saved by him! How can you guys accept this?"."

Actually, a closer analogy would have been that the guy pushed the child, and it just so happened that a car sped by. Even though the guy might have pushed the child out of the way, he was doing it just to push the child.

Re:hate them, but there's some truth (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568360)

Please explain how Tim Burton and Kristen Stewart represent the US government. This should be a good one. For inspiration, try Fars or www.kcna.co.jp, they tell the same story you do. Bonus points for lumping Jim Carrey in with the Nazis and Communists.

I feel lucky to be born in the USA (4, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567226)

The US government has done many awful and unjust things but it is a beacon of human rights when compared to the Peoples Republic of China.

What's happens to US citizens when they criticize the US government? What happens to Chinese citizens when they criticize the current government of China?

An honest answer to this test should quiet the post we will see here today. Somebody is going to apologize for the atrocities of the Chinese government by saying that the US government is no better. I can criticize both the US government and the Chinese government. I don't fear any reprisal from the US government for that criticism. Chinese citizens can have their lives taken away or be imprisoned for little more than a charge of 'creating instability'.

Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (0, Troll)

Revotron (1115029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567464)

"What's happens to US citizens when they criticize the US government?'

Major media outlets and the incumbent party leaders refer to them as "teabaggers" and insist that they are just acting under the direction of the evil news conglomerate Fox News and that Dick Cheney is controlling them all via satellite from his Fortress of Doom in Halliburton's headquarters while eating kittens by the litter.

Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567830)

This point is lost on many Westerners. When Westerners say that "People in the USSR/China/whereever cannot criticize the government" they actually mean "People in the USSR/China/whereever cannot criticize the established political system". Criticise the CPSU and the KGB will come down on you like a ton of bricks. Criticize the "Demopublican Party" and the commercial media will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Notice how criticism of formal government structures did not occur, and even the most "unfree" systems will allow (at least in principle) criticism of said formal government structures.

Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (3, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567578)

"I don't fear any reprisal from the US government for that criticism."

That is a bit of a stretch, considering that critics of US foreign policy have found themselves unable to board airplanes. Sure, it is not as bad as what happens in China, but let's not act like the US is all roses and that criticism of the government goes unpunished. Only a few years ago, my friends were imprisoned for peacefully protesting the RNC in New York. Like I said, not as bad as China, but certainly nothing close to ideal...

Pot, meet Kettle (1)

m.ducharme (1082683) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567254)

Given how thoroughly China controls Chinese businesses, it's exceedingly hypocritical for China to criticize Google for these perceived links to the US government.

Re:Pot, meet Kettle (1)

jandrese (485) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568122)

That's the point though, the government can't stand any business that offers up even token resistance to their control. Google is smart enough not to let some penny-ante bureaucrats mess with them, and as a result they're basically getting kicked out of the country.

history lesson (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567468)

"They have also accused the company of trying to
change Chinese society by imposing American values on it."
everybody knows the internet was invented in china, duh.

Re:history lesson (0, Offtopic)

m.ducharme (1082683) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567550)

And Shakespeare is best in the original Klingon.

Stop whining! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31567530)

*points at China*

It's hard telling a company what to do when you don't own it, eh? Mayhaps this will inspire other companies to think twice before setting up shop in China...

Umm... Who cares? (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567612)

Does anyone really give an airborne copulation at a ventrally rotating toroid what China criticizes?

I'm not intending to be dismissive. I actually don't understand why this is even news.

China has it backward (2, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567634)

China owns the playing field and sets the rules for that playing field. Google has attempted to play in China's playground but cannot survive within the constraint of its rules. It has exhausted all efforts to make adjustments and compromises but China will have none of it. Google has two options -- change the way it does business or leave. These options are rather similar to China's options -- allow changes in the way it deals with business or make them leave. It doesn't have to be an emotionally or politically charged problem at all.

Google's options are limited. Leaving is clearly the last resort and it seems that they are taking that one. China is keeping its playground, but Google is taking the ball back home.

Well.... (1)

bickerdyke (670000) | more than 4 years ago | (#31567640)

... google IS a US-based company.... what did they expect?

Re:Well.... (1)

SmackTheIgnorant (985978) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568274)

This is going to open a can of worms, might be marked as a troll, and somewhat humourous that I have a nickname of SmackTheIgnorant while saying this, but...

Isn't the Internet more of an American invention? I'm not going to say "perfected", but more of a "refined to some extent into the abomination which it is" here in North America?
Twitter? Facebook? MySpace? YouTube?
Bing? Yahoo? Google?

The world can't bend over backwards to serve the needs of a power-hungry vengeful dictatorship , and it shouldn't have to. Corporations don't have to.

People shouldn't have to. The people of China, however, don't have a choice.

Not even the point... (2, Insightful)

foxalopex (522681) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568400)

I watched an interesting show on how Google operates and their conclusion was that Google's business is based on "Trust". Unlike many organizations, Google is in business because we trust that they will work and operate to keep our data as safe as they can. It is something that a vast majority of the public including myself takes for granted because so far they haven't messed up badly. According to Google, China was caught hacking their systems, stealing IP and personal user data. If this keeps going on the way it does, then Google can't keep the trust of the public and it might mean the downfall of their company. (I can't use Google because China keeps hacking in and stealing my data.)

Originally Google went into China because when you really think about it, filtering users from content does not betray this idea of "Trust". Your data is still safe but China stepped over the line when they started hacking into Google.

The best way for Google to leave China which is likely what they are now planning to do is to drop the filtering. This generates good will with the remaining users. China is correct in that Google is pushing Western ideals however in many ways this is China's fault to begin with. If China hadn't hacked Google to begin with this whole mess would not have started.

I personally don't see a huge problem with China filtering searches. It's their own country and their own rules. Admittedly this goes against freedom of speech (a democratic idea) but China's pretty far from a democracy. Hopefully someday, their public will realize that it is something valuable enough to fight for but for now it doesn't seem to be the case. However hacking your business partner is far from acceptable.

I doesn't wash. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31568402)

If you were a responsible for horrific atrocities like this one :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
and you wanted to hide the truth about it from the people, of course you wouldn't believe in the "American way."
The American way is pretty much the opposite of that.

I am not involved with Google but they have been open for a good long while and it's one of their core ideals to be committed to openness.
Sorry if there are Chinese out there who believe that openness and morality are not acceptable in business and that people who believe in freedom are wrong. You guys are wrong.
It is is abundantly clear that if Google leave China it will be for business reasons. Because they cannot be open and that prevents them from increasing their market share. It is not a political issue.
Google is an American company. Not a Chinese company.
The cyber attack was a political issue. Google leaving is not.

The political issue for China now is why the Chinese government did nothing to assist Google after the attacks and what the Chinese government will do to replace the huge amount of web infrastructure that will no longer be available to the Chinese people if Google leaves.
Adopting the "We don't care if you leave attitude" is essentially like shooting yourself in the foot.

US company has US ties, news at 11 (1)

PPalmgren (1009823) | more than 4 years ago | (#31568496)

Google's entire business model relies on the free internet society that the US has helped build. If the internet started in Iran, it wouldn't be what it is today. To say a US company with a business model based on internet freedom has a US bias is quite the waste of breath.

This is simply a case of a company embracing like-minded groups and distancing its threats.

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