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Pwahahahaha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611132)

That is all.

Re:Pwahahahaha (4, Insightful)

V!NCENT (1105021) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611358)

Dude... (chicks don't react like that) .NET is supposed to be cross hard- and software.

It was introduced to abstract the OS so that if Microsoft were to also release Windows for PowerPC's or whatever architecture, .NET apps would still run,

Later on Microsoft announced the interoperability (this is my time to "Pffffffwahahahahaha") and they killed it with patent infringements.

So now, yes, Microsoft has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot, which is differently from shooting it in the head.

What I am saying is yes; .NET is still very strong and succesful, but limited to Windows pretty much. Good for Microsoft and Windows, bad for the ecosystem itself that had spread to other OS platforms with Mono (which is chasing taillights and thus sucks).

Re:Pwahahahaha (2, Interesting)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611584)

Mono is a cheap imitation of .NET, which is a cheap imitation of Java. This is why Java rules on the server.

Re:Pwahahahaha (4, Insightful)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611824)

I have to disagree. Mono has grown out of it's cheap-copy-of-.NET state. It tries to keep compatibility with .NET, but it has become a great framework itself.

Re:Pwahahahaha (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612096)

I disagree. Java was around prior to C# and .NET. There are a number of similarities, but both C# and .NET have evolved far beyond Java, at this point. The myth about simple cross-platform development in Java is just that, a myth. Anybody with cross-platform Java experience will attest to this. Java, as a language, has grown stagnant, while C# has continued to evolve.

Re:Pwahahahaha (1, Informative)

diegocg (1680514) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611644)

I wouldn't say that Mono sucks. It's certainly behind .NET, but it's not the average crappy FOSS clone.

Re:Pwahahahaha (1)

SupaSaru (1773854) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612160)

Agreed. Mono is an implementation of Microsoft's CLR - not an "imitation" in any way, shape or form. It is an implementation many people worked very hard to maintain in the spirit of Microsoft's announcement of the CLR being cross-platform. Throwing around the term 'imitation' is an insult. Calling it an imitation is analogous to saying ext3 is an imitation of FAT32.....

Re:Pwahahahaha (4, Insightful)

Fujisawa Sensei (207127) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611674)

Microsoft's idea of cross platform is one of their platforms; like Windows 2000, XP, Vist and 7.

Re:Pwahahahaha (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612002)

Windows 2000 support was dropped in .NET 3.0, just FYI. Still, I wouldn't go back to my GNU roots unless I was paid a damn hefty sum of money, .NET makes my life a fucklot easier -- and for anyone saying 'Java is better' lol at you, shame on you, Java has put as many rounds in its own foot as .NET has -- not for the same reasons but in the end the result is the same, and can be summarized as such: "Too many cooks in the fucking kitchen."

Re:Pwahahahaha (4, Insightful)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612274)

Sun shot Java in the foot a few times.

Microsoft abused its monopoly position to shoot Java at short range.

.Net shoots the developers and end users.

Re:Pwahahahaha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612044)

You forgot about Windows Mobile, the .NET Compact Framework that runs on multiple devices, and Silverlight which is also supported by Microsoft on Apple's Mac OS X

Re:Pwahahahaha (2, Interesting)

gyrogeerloose (849181) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612318)

Silverlight which is also supported by Microsoft on Apple's Mac OS X

And which caused my browser to crash regularly whenever it was invoked. YMMV but for me, it was almost as bad as Adobe's Mac implementation of Flash.

Re:Pwahahahaha (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612104)

Not quite. Cross platform to MS means Windows and Wince. The point of .NET was never to hide the OS, it was to allow you to write Windows applications that were architecture-neutral, so you can run them on a desktop x86 CPU or a mobile ARM/MIPS/PowerPC CPU. All of these architectures were supported by Microsoft when .NET was introduced, but Wince had the big problem that it didn't run desktop Windows apps, which eliminated a big chunk of the reason for running a version of Windows at all.

Wince 7 now only allows you to run .NET apps, which means that Wince 7 can run the same apps on any architecture, and means that if you write a .NET app that runs on Wince 7 it will also run on desktop Windows. Conversely, if you write your desktop Windows app using .NET then you can easily port it to mobile Windows machines just by tweaking the UI a bit to work on smaller screens.

Re:Pwahahahaha (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612330)

Where is this Microsoft Vist and where can I find it? :P

De Icaza is Novell veep? (2, Insightful)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611148)

I used to respect that company (NetWare 3.11, NDS, NetWare 5.0, GroupWise, ZenWorks, all top-notch tech, IMHO).

Now, a tad less.

Re:De Icaza is Novell veep? (1)

carolfromoz (1552209) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611556)

I was kind of shocked to see he's also an MVP. There seems something .... wrong about that.

Re:De Icaza is Novell veep? (1)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611850)

Of course it would be wrong for the VP of a company who probably has done more deals with Microsoft on interoperability to know something about their software. Netware of the past was *the* directory service for Windows.

For those who don't "repsect" Novell any more because they act like a corporate player doesn't get it. They came in and fought the SCO fight a bit and at the same time did some questionable deals with MS, it's all just business to them. They have stood on principle quite a few times but they are still just trying to provide software solutions for a few bucks that they can later divide up and spend on new cars.

SCO fought THEM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612172)

SCO fought THEM. Novell would have had to pay out for their own licensed works (they own the rights, SCO worked as their gopher).

Re:De Icaza is Novell veep? (1)

think_nix (1467471) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611706)

Strange though how he is not listed under http://www.novell.com/company/bios/ [novell.com]

I used to respect that company (NetWare 3.11, NDS, NetWare 5.0, GroupWise, ZenWorks, all top-notch tech, IMHO).

Now, a tad less.

Yeah just like when Mr. Hovsepian took his new seat as CEO he said he would do so much for linux and the linux community. A few months later Novell axe's a bunch of key KDE developers, and later on let go a bunch more of there development teams on SUSE / opensuse.

Re:De Icaza is Novell veep? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612180)

Novell bought Ximian back in 2003. Ximian people became Novell people, and the two founders got senior posts at Novell. Quite a few of Novell's Linux offerings are based on Ximian products. Their Go-OO.org thing is based on Ximian's OpenOffice, for example.

Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (0)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611188)

I think we should make a pact to STOP using the word "ecosystem" when it refers to computer systems.

It's the most annoying marketing-speak since "blogosphere" (or "twitterverse")

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611428)

It's the most annoying marketing-speak since "blogosphere" (or "twitterverse")

You're just upset because you're not part of the blogosphere or the twitterverse...just part of the Slashdotorb.

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611444)

Be careful or you'll summon the fail whale!

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612100)

Not on my watch!
Signed,
Captain Ahab

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611530)

Since? SINCE? Have you been screwing with the space-time continuum again? "Ecosystem" was around before Twitter first started.

I half agree, though. .Net is a platform, not an ecosystem, although "ecosystem" can be a reasonable term (e.g. for an interaction of technologies in a computer-based environment).

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

English French Man (1220122) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611638)

There is nothing about it that justifies the prefix "eco".

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611710)

You have a very narrow definition of a very broad prefix....

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

English French Man (1220122) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611886)

OK, I checked, apparently "eco" comes from greek , meaning "home". Sorry, I talked too fast.

Another point that one could make, is the fact that the term is already in use for describing something different, that have nothing to do with computers.

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611728)

Given the number of incompatible platforms that qualify as .Net, I would say it is an ecosystem. Between Mono, Windows .Net, and the various versions of Silverlight, calling it a 'platform' is somewhat disingenuous. I'd be fine with it, if I could just run my the code wherever I want. But you can't do that, because Microsoft has decided that multiple implementations are a better idea than one cross-platform one.

You need to engage with the frameworks (5, Funny)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611600)

I'm afraid your commitment to excellence has not synergised with market driven realities of the mission critical holistic buzzwordverse. Buck up your ideas sonny and buy into the knowledge base on a going forward basis or you'll soon suffer negative organic growth in your wetware core vocal services vis-a-vis next generation corporate employment opportunity scenarios!

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

jdgeorge (18767) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611736)

I agree it is annoying, but I don't know of another term that describes the community of developers/product vendors, customers, and integrators who use/support a technology. Do you have an alternative suggestion?

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611906)

Do you have an alternative suggestion?

I was going to suggest computersystem instead of ecosystem but I don't think it would ever catch on.

Re:Marketing (or Moron)- Speak! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611970)

I think the term ecosystem is an analogy to the human side of it as opposed to the technical. So it's not the platform or the system as such.

Companies, customers, independent developers and opensource projects. That's the .Net ecosystem.

Not very persuasive... (4, Funny)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611244)

Microsoft has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot

A head shot would have been clearer. We all know .NET limps already.
Or is this just the usual Microsoft wobbling instead of making an actual decision?

Re:Not very persuasive... (3, Insightful)

Jurily (900488) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611462)

Yeah, it limps alright. Just take a look at StackOverflow [stackoverflow.com] .

Re:Not very persuasive... (3, Insightful)

Filopopulus (604384) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611730)

Yeah! See how hard it is to program in C#? Those guys keep asking more and more questions! ;-)

Re:Not very persuasive... (3, Insightful)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611954)

Lots of questions means lots of confusion. I think all you proved is a severe lack of documentation or how newbies are confused as hell by it.

I'd say check the Tiobe index [tiobe.com] for a more accurate record. You'd think that a major corporation like Microsoft could garner more popularity than PHP instead of less than half.

Re:Not very persuasive... (4, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612324)

Lots of questions means lots of confusion. I think all you proved is a severe lack of documentation or how newbies are confused as hell by it.

Or, maybe, lots of questions just means lots of newbies?

Or it could even mean that StackOverflow is historically more .NET-centric, so that's where you go to ask .NET questions; and Java ones are asked elsewhere.

I'd say check the Tiobe index [tiobe.com] for a more accurate record. You'd think that a major corporation like Microsoft could garner more popularity than PHP instead of less than half.

TIOBE index is extremely unaccurate due to their, ahem, "methodology" [tiobe.com] , and they even tell so themselves.

It is particularly inaccurate with respect to .NET, because you need to extract VB.NET out of all BASIC job offerings, add C#, and then add all positions that just say ".NET" without specifying the language (which isn't even tracked on TIOBE), to get a real figure.

Then, also, think about what it measures - if you look at what is found by googling for "PHP programming" (which is what TIOBE does, pretty much), it's mostly various tutorials/howtos. So, it effectively measures the amount of learning material available online for a given tech, including any low-quality and duplicate ones. It's no secret that there's a crapload of that for PHP. In fact, by your logic, it would indicate that PHP is so bad, since it needs so much tutorials to teach people to do things, no?

Instead of TIOBE, why don't you open your nearest job search website, and look at the number of available .NET positions vs Java ones? (the ratio will vary quite a bit by region/country, by the way)

Re:Not very persuasive... (5, Funny)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611472)

Microsoft hasn't shot/killed anything, they just stopped pulling the puppet strings and making the silly squeaky noises that made it look like it was alive in the first place.

Re:Not very persuasive... (4, Funny)

dbIII (701233) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611500)

Does that mean "gimp" is going to be ported to ".NET"?

Finally (5, Insightful)

Airline_Sickness_Bag (111686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611248)

It took how many years for Miguel de Icaza to realize this? Most of us could have told him that with seconds.

Re:Finally (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611570)

The worst of it was that they defuncted Suse's push for patent reform. Microsoft, Novell, Suse, Linux or Skype, software patents are a nightmare for software development and we need creative solutions to fix the problem.

Re:Finally (5, Interesting)

sigmoid_balance (777560) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611724)

When Stallman said the same thing, de Icaza called him a fanatic. Well, most voices on /. called him the same thing. He was right then like he was right with his movement from the start. You can't have half-measures.

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611840)

Have measures avail us nothing.

So Miguel finally figured it out? (4, Insightful)

OzPeter (195038) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611258)

There is hope for him yet!

fanboi disappointment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611282)

Poor Miguel. Another Microsoft dream dies for him. But that won't stop him from trying to ram all things Redmond down Linux user's throats.

Wah wah wah (5, Insightful)

bigtomrodney (993427) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611286)

That's a little rich for De Icaza to be coming out and saying this now. He's spent years shouting down anyone that warned him about the patent scenario with Microsoft's technologies and yet he continued to proselytise. He's worked away on Mono and Silverlight and made sure to get them included wherever he could.

So is he allowed to be surprised or angry now?

Re:Wah wah wah (3, Insightful)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611682)

Kinda like when you tell a female who is having an affair with a married man: "You know he's never going to leave his wife." The reaction is usually denial and false hope. Some day, maybe years later, they realize the truth and move on. They didn't just were not ready to acknowledge it until they are ready.

Re:Wah wah wah (1)

Internalist (928097) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611860)

Um. Chauvinist, much?

Re:Wah wah wah (5, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611732)

So is he allowed to be surprised or angry now?

Of course he is.

And we're allowed to roll our eyes and say "No shit, Sherlock! Welcome to five years ago!"

I mean sure he's slow on the uptake. Sure it was pretty silly to dismiss the quite plain threat of Microsoft's patents with "Oh but they won't do that!" But hey, at least the "but they won't do that!" turns into "gee, it's looking like that's exactly what they plan to do" eventually.

Doesn't mean I think he's any smarter than I did yesterday. But sure he's allowed to change his mind, and that's a good thing.

Re:Wah wah wah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611856)

It's like no one here understands the self-fulfilling prophecy. You're all just content to scream into the echo chamber, patting each other on the backs with the left hand while you jerk off on each other with the right.

This poor guy tried to do what he thought was the right thing, but he didn't realize that the abject and irrational hatred for all things Microsoft would stymie him, and all you people can do is talk about how smart you are for having your retarded opinions.

God you assburgers nerds suck.

He was a retard (4, Insightful)

BhaKi (1316335) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611292)

for assuming (and advocating to others) that Microsoft won't threaten Linux.

Re:He was a retard (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611442)

Well, it looks like he now understands why people had reservations about the Mono project in the first place, and why it wasn't embraced with open arms by the community. Considering that he seems to be quite smart it may feel like a surprise that the learning experience took this long, but frankly I'm just happy that he seems to have learned the lesson. Hopefully this means he will put his considerable skills to better use now that he is starting to see the problems with his original approach.

The original SD Times article. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611382)

Taken from Google Cache: http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:LPFDjfqGMRMJ:www.sdtimes.com/link/34203+Does+Windows+cost+Microsoft+opportunities&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Does Windows cost Microsoft opportunities?
By David Worthington

March 17, 2010 —
The evolution of the .NET Framework has won new users to the platform, and drawn its share of criticism from those who think Microsoft’s stewardship has often been off-target.

Among the critics is Novell vice president Miguel de Icaza, who said .NET's focus on Windows has come at the expense of opportunities for Microsoft, and its desire to guard its intellectual property is an impediment on the platform.

"Microsoft has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot because of the constant threat of patent infringement that they have cast on the ecosystem," he said. "Unlike the Java world that is blossoming with dozens of vibrant Java Virtual Machine implementations, the .NET world has suffered by this meme spread by [Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer] that they would come after people that do not license patents from them."

In practice, the Java community only uses two or three JVMs (IBM's, JRockit, and OpenJDK from Sun), while others are research efforts or smaller-scale open-source projects, said author and consultant Ted Neward. "Virtual machines are not something the open-source community seems to want to experiment with."

Microsoft submitted the Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) specification to ECMA International, which ratified it in 2001. Microsoft built technologies on top of the specification as .NET evolved.

Microsoft has made an open-source CLI implementation codenamed "Rotor" freely available [microsoft.com] , but it has had little or no uptake, Neward noted.

However, Mono remains the only implementer of the ECMA CLI specification outside of Microsoft, and that is a testament to the legal uncertainty surrounding some aspects of .NET due to Microsoft's statements about open-source software, de Icaza said.

"[Microsoft] would still be the No. 1 stack, but it would have encouraged an ecosystem that would have innovated extensively around their platform," he added.

Facebook, Google, Ruby on Rails and Wikipedia could have been built using .NET, de Icaza claimed. "All of those are failed opportunities. Even if the cross-language story was great, the Web integration fantastic, the architecture was the right one to fit whatever flavor of a platform you wanted, people flocked elsewhere."

"To say that Google could have used .NET is to undervalue both Google and .NET. Google creates value from things like distributed MapReduce and a brand-new system-level programming with concurrent coroutines," said Larry O'Brien, an independent analyst and consultant who writes the Windows & .NET column for SD Times. ".NET creates value from a fantastic IDE, great mainstream languages, and well-executed technologies like Silverlight, LINQ and the DLR [Dynamic Language Runtime]."

Despite the criticisms, customers are "making bets on .NET" all the time, said Brandon Watson, director of product management for Microsoft's development platforms. "The fact that we didn't get Google—I'll cry a little, but not a lot. I'm not certain that Google wouldn't have taken a bet on philosophy, wanting to beat us."

Further, developers can build languages on top of .NET 4.0's dynamic language runtime, which supports both Python and Ruby, Watson said. But it's the addition of new technologies on top of the ECMA specification, such as the DLR, that de Icaza believes impedes the CLI's adoption.

Microsoft's submission to ECMA has remained at a "core level," de Icaza claimed. "It never went into other areas like server APIs, GUI APIs, or even updating some of the core to include LINQ, the DLR and many others."

While it may not always submit everything it creates to ECMA, Microsoft is committed to standards as a company, specifically and especially as they relate to developers, Watson said. "Innovation doesn't happen in standards bodies, and customer demand doesn't slow down for standards bodies."

LINQ was just introduced in 2007, and Microsoft has iterated on it, Watson added. "C# 3.0 just came out, and WCF [Windows Communication Foundation] is compliant with standard network bindings."

Microsoft has also made some of its associated intellectual property, including XAML and its ASP.NET AJAX library, available under its Open Specification Promise or open-source licenses.

The OSP is an irrevocable promise by Microsoft to not assert its intellectual property rights for covered technologies.

OSP? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611858)

"The OSP is an irrevocable promise by Microsoft to not assert its intellectual property rights for covered technologies."

Sure. It's still kind of like having this sword above the mantelpiece, and when someone at a party asks whether it's dangerous, you say: "Don't worry. I promise that I'll never decapitate any of my party guests with it."

Somehow such a statement isn't entirely reassuring.

Re:OSP? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611958)

As has been said on Slashdot about 76 million times, such promises are still legally binding, and if Microsoft broke them they'd be in the shit.

76,000,001 now.

Re:OSP? (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612312)

Promissory estoppel does apply for things covered by the OSP, but the OSP doesn't cover nearly as much as you seem to think it does. The grandparent's analogy would be more accurate if the host said 'Oh, I promise not to decapitate any of my guests with that sword.'

Re:The original SD Times article. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612136)

While it may not always submit everything it creates to ECMA, Microsoft is committed to standards as a company, specifically and especially as they relate to developers, Watson said. "Innovation doesn't happen in standards bodies, and customer demand doesn't slow down for standards bodies."

*cough (Internet Explorer) *cough

Re:The original SD Times article. (4, Insightful)

WWWWolf (2428) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612146)

"Unlike the Java world that is blossoming with dozens of vibrant Java Virtual Machine implementations, the .NET world has suffered by this meme spread by [Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer] that they would come after people that do not license patents from them."

In practice, the Java community only uses two or three JVMs (IBM's, JRockit, and OpenJDK from Sun), while others are research efforts or smaller-scale open-source projects, said author and consultant Ted Neward. "Virtual machines are not something the open-source community seems to want to experiment with."

::Incredibly slow facepalm::

What the hell kind of rhetorical diversion that was?

"I love air", de Icaza was quoted as saying. "Breathing oxygen is a wonderful thing. I couldn't get through a single day without oxygen."

In practice, oxygen only accounts for about 20% of Earth's atmosphere, said author and consultant Ted Neward. "O2 just isn't something that the open source community wants to inhale frequently."

Tip: Java isn't popular because people work on multiple JVMs (however small in their number they might be). The point de Icaza was making is that Java is popular because there can be multiple JVMs.

Re:The original SD Times article. (0, Troll)

rtyhurst (460717) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612296)

I *speet* upon de Icaza and his vile prostitution to Microsoft!

*hork*

*ptoooooooie!*

Just now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611416)

This has been a cloud hanging over the Mono project from the start.

They (the Mono project) has pursued a strategy of ignoring the problem, hand waving over it, or rationalizing it away (hence this story's FUD tag). Now they're finally admitting it's a problem.

The smart ones among us have foreseen this as an issue for years now.

What were you expecting Miguel? (0, Troll)

viraltus (1102365) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611466)

Fair play from Micro$oft towards the free open source movement? Stop playing with monkeys.

Re:What were you expecting Miguel? (1)

mr_da3m0n (887821) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611872)

Stop playing with monkeys.

Was this intentional? Because it's pretty clever, if you consider, you know, Ximian [novell.com] .

Re:What were you expecting Miguel? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612326)

It probably was intentional, given that Mono is Spanish for monkey...

Never go with Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611492)

Don't do deals with them, don't do products for them, don't use their products. Everyone fucking knows that.

Oh Noes! (5, Funny)

hduff (570443) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611506)

The sky in Miguel de Icaza's world just turned blue!

Well -- (1)

dwiget001 (1073738) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611524)

-- as if nothing like this was ever anticipated or expected.

Whoosh!

O rly. (4, Interesting)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611568)

"He also claimed that Facebook, Google, Ruby on Rails and Wikipedia could have been built using .NET."

Wikipedia? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. Really, no.

(Although the WMF Lucene search implementation was done in C# on Mono for a while, when Java wasn't yet sufficiently free software. It ran at half the speed of the Java version.)

Re:O rly. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611726)

NewsTechnica

Don't bother looking. It's like the Onion except not funny.

Re:O rly. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612062)

It says "could have" - not that it would run well... You can definitely build a house out of gelatin....

Re:O rly. (0, Offtopic)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612254)

Last time I checked, Google has been running on Linux from day 1.

Facebook is developed in PHP, hence their new HipHop project.

Wikipedia has always run on Linux, like Google, before Mono was really up and running.

I find it hard to believe any of these were developed using .NET.

MS is a more aggressive business than SUN (1)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611678)

All MS is interested in is the bottom line. If they allow free implementations of .NET then as far as they see it they'll lose sales on their .NET compiler and whats more may even lose Windows sales if people port their .NET apps to a-n-other platform.

I'm not saying they're right but thats probably the way their short term thinking marketing and legal dept see it.

Re:MS is a more aggressive business than SUN (1)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612206)

There's no money in the .NET compiler, in fact, it comes with every normal client installation of .NET. (Example: C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v2.0.50727\csc.exe)
You're thinking of Visual Studio.

Re:MS is a more aggressive business than SUN (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612246)

All MS is interested in is the bottom line.

I'd say they're equally interested in maintaining their OS monopoly which provides the foundation of their bottom line. Sure they are intimately linked, but they're not the same, because MS will make moves that might hurt their bottom line but cement their OS monopoly. Because if they lost that, then the bottom would fall out of their bottom line.

For example by your quite reasonable logic, MS never would have allowed free and cross-platform .NET implementations in the first place. But with Linux/Free Software becoming an increasing threat to their OS dominance, and the market in general becoming vaguely in favor of cross-platform solutions, it made sense to convince fools like Miguel to waste their time developing Mono by promising not to drop the patent hammer. All the effort that could have gone into a real free and cross-platform .NET competitor was instead spent on something Microsoft can eliminate any time they want.

You're absolutely right Sun is a less aggressive competitor than MS, and less cunning too. Sun actually wanted to create a cross-platform runtime, but failed. MS never wanted to have a real cross-platform language, they only wanted to trick people into thinking they did so Linux developers would waste their time on Mono and application developers would code to MS' proprietary standard thinking they were coding something open and cross-platform.

So, Miguel (3, Insightful)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611716)

can we get that diseased crap out of GNOME?

sudo apt-get remove --crap-out mono-common (2, Funny)

viraltus (1102365) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611848)

^_^'

Re:So, Miguel (5, Insightful)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611962)

No problem: sudo apt-get remove mono-runtime mono-complete

Re:So, Miguel (0, Troll)

ink (4325) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612048)

Just because Microsoft is taking its dotNet patent ball and going home with it, doesn't mean that Mono is fundamentally flawed. Take the Mono bindings for dbus and Gnome-Do as an example. The code is very easy to understand and very powerful. Hopefully Mono will now be freed from having to track Microsoft's API hell, and it can truly blossom as an open-source software stack.

C# and F# (3, Interesting)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611718)

Maybe the biggest lamentation I have is regarding C#. I keep on hearing how it's a wonderful improvement on C++, which is my bread-and-butter language. But I'm just not willing to invest time in a language that requires paying a Microsoft tax one way or another.

Similarly for F# (I have a deep love for functional programming).

Re:C# and F# (4, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611820)

Maybe the biggest lamentation I have is regarding C#. I keep on hearing how it's a wonderful improvement on C++, which is my bread-and-butter language.

I wouldn't be too sad. C# is really more of an improvement on Java than it is on C++. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there's a reason you use C++ and not Java, and those reasons would probably still mean you'd use C++ over C#.

Re:C# and F# (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611920)

C# as a language is as close to C++ as Java.
And for a functional language that runs on Java platform try Scala (it's really nice). For a Python/Ruby style scripting language there's Groovy.

Re:C# and F# (1)

ink (4325) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612076)

As a Java and C++ developer, I'm jealous of several language features found in C# -- especially properties.

Re:C# and F# (1)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612264)

I'm primarily a C# developer, but I dabble in Java for things like Android development. Knowing C# has really helped my Java, but here and there I miss certain things from it, like properties. Getters and setters just feel like a poor way of doing things, as far as code organization goes.

Re:C# and F# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31612210)

If you're looking for a free language like F#, just learn OCaml, which is another ML variant and pretty awesome. You're not hooked up to the .NET framework, which you could consider a good or a bad thing. And you can do JIT or AOT compilation, which is pretty slick.

\SHIT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611740)

(I always ]brin6 my

.NET is a Marketing Term (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611770)

Miguel was enamored with a lot of the technology behind ".NET", and thought he could outsmart Microsoft, in a sense. He thought he would be pragmatic and non-religious about the technology and adopt it.

What he never realized, and is maybe now only starting to realize, is that .NET is a *marketing* term. It was brilliantly crafted by Microsoft's marketing people. As smart as their developers are and as cool as Miguel thought their engineering and technology is, their marketing is far and away better and more sophisticated. .NET is a brilliant marketing strategy. Miguel didn't realize that by using the '.NET' term so incessantly, he was basically ensuring that he would be in the position that he's in now.

Sure, there was C# and the CLR. That was probably 10% of ".NET", which was a overarching strategy for the *Windows* ecosystem at the time that involved extending Windows into the Internet as much as possible, including "tieing" it into all sorts of Microsoft-oriented services that were MSN at the time.

Think about it. VisualStudio.NET. What the !@#$ does that mean? It's a branding term. Miguel showed his complete lack of understanding of marketing by using that term so regularly and continuously WRT Mono.

That took guts to admit, Miguel (4, Insightful)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611774)

Everyone else has been saying that forever, but to hear it from you.. I'm impressed.

Re:That took guts to admit, Miguel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611918)

It's called projection. Miguel has finally realised that he was wrong all this time, but he blames Microsoft for it.

Microsoft needs to get a grip (3, Interesting)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 4 years ago | (#31611808)

Put aside the fact that De Icaza is now eating his own words about the patent issue and look at the issue itself. Microsoft simply has not accepted how things have begun to change. Developers rarely need them the way that they used to need them in the business space. Most large enterprise apps can now be entirely built in Java, Ruby, Python, Perl or PHP for the backend and JavaScript with a toolkit like jQuery or ExtJs for the front end. There is not a single need for Microsoft in that whole space.

Microsoft needs to realize that developers have options now and their threats are empty. Most developers would laugh at their attempts to control things now and simply say "have fun with that" as they switch to some pure open source approach or one built around a hybrid of open and closed source from various projects and vendors.

Re:Microsoft needs to get a grip (1)

katz (36161) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612224)

Excuse me, but something sounded off about your argument. For starters, the Federal Government is the biggest US employer, the highest payer, and for the most part uses off-the-shelf and home-grown .NET applications. You mentioned that "Most large enterprise apps can now be entirely built in Java, Ruby, Python, Perl or PHP"; sure, but it turns out that most new web apps in the Federal space are coded in .NET.

A huge leverage Microsoft has against open-source is Federal reliance on legacy apps that only run in Microsoft environments. I do agree with you that there is zero need for MS in the workplace. However, when my clients demand reports in Microsoft Word 2003 format and present me with apps coded in .NET for security review, I have my business need for Microsoft pretty clearly defined there.

Not Shit Dumbass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611818)

Im pissed that the entire free software community didn't make this point already. YOU MEAN MICROSOFT IS LITIGIOUS WITH PATENTS??????? NO WAYS?! /sarcam

Seriously Miguel, I know you said Microsoft changed and all but it just proves you are either ignorant or ..... Naw your just ignorant ive tried disagreeing with you.

Fucknob.

May this serve as a lesson... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31611922)

May this serve as a lesson for the next "de Icaza would-be": if you *ever* think of jumping boat "because this time M$ is going to play nice, really" and then you have the entire FOSS warning you that you're just being delusional, then instead of wasting your time and looking like an uber-fool years later, go work for a company that does *really* provide open software, under a real Open Source license. You don't like Google's Chrome browser? Fork them. Go work on SRWare Iron (a fork of Chromium).

Why is Java present in every single Blu-Ray player on this planet (it's part of the Blu-Ray spec)? Why is Java present in the wallet of entire countries' citizens (national ID SmartCard and/or national healthcare SmartCard)? Why is Java huge in the cellphone market (in everything besides the iPhone)? Why is Java powering a huge part of Google (GMail, GWT, Android, etc.), FedEx, Walmart, Twitter, eBay?

Because Java f*cking rocks and really *is* cross-platform.

Java is the biggest language success story of these last 20 years and .Net is just a cheap imitation of the JVM. Remember that one of the thing that makes Java so great is the inherent security of the JVM. If you have two neurons, would you trust M$ to come up with something that could be secure? .Net is a toy for Mom & Dad's Microsoft-shop.

 

The harm is done (5, Insightful)

Windwraith (932426) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612004)

He already pushed Mono into a lot of parts of Gnome...harm is already done De Icaza, you had to realize before pushing it into one of the most widely used Linux desktop enviroments.

Mono is not an integral part of GNOME (2, Informative)

viraltus (1102365) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612192)

You can easily remove mono with 'sudo apt-get remove --purge mono-common'

Re:The harm is done (1)

roqetman (217708) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612278)

It's only used it a couple of small applications that can be replaced if necessary.

so what, Miguel? (4, Insightful)

Trailer Trash (60756) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612166)

Snakes bite, buddy, that's why we don't play with them.

I don't know why you keep thinking that Microsoft wants some sort of "ecosystem". They want control, but they're always willing to use a useful idiot.

Remind me (1)

BlortHorc (305555) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612190)

Why do we care what this 'tard says anymore?

I mean, seriously, why?

I have heard nothing but idiocy come out of his mouth for years, yet somehow people seem to keep giving him the time of day.

De Icaza is known for just one thing these days: he hasn't got a fucking clue. Been so long since he had one, seems he says something even vaguely sane, e.g. ".Net is a trap for the unwary" and it is newsworthy.

I vote we all ignore this tool from here on in.

Creating his own problem (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612198)

For the record, I'm not one of those guys up in arms that Novell is trying to create interoperability with Microsoft systems. I think this is a good move to help companies transition to Linux.

Novell's work on Mono, Moonlight, OOXML support in OpenOffice, Samba, OpenChange, etc. is a good thing.

That being said, there have been tons of worried detractors citing possible patent problems with .NET.

De Icaza told everyone not to worry about them, and started shoving Mono into every app he could, ignoring those concerns constantly. Isn't a bit late to start listening to those concerns after you shipped products with Mono in them?

How can that be? (1)

Stumbles (602007) | more than 4 years ago | (#31612294)

Miguel has been trying to convince everyone in the FOSS world this was not a problem at all especially in regards to Mono. So how come the change of mind now?
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