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Warhammer Online Users Repeatedly Overbilled

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the greenbacks-for-greenskins dept.

Bug 216

TheSpoom writes "A screw-up in EA's Warhammer Online billing system has resulted in many players being charged upwards of 22 times for a one-month subscription, filling bank accounts with overdraft fees and the Warhammer forums with very angry players, who are discussing the issue quite vocally. EA has said that refunds are in progress and that '[they] anticipate that once the charges have been reversed, any fees that have been incurred should be refunded as well.' They haven't specifically promised to refund overdraft charges, only to ask customers' banks to refund them once the actual charges are refunded. They seem to be assuming banks will have no problem with this."

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216 comments

Great Business Plan (-1, Flamebait)

deadmongoose (1246538) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785612)

Overcharge paying customers to make up for the scores of people that left after the free month. Assuming they only refund the people that are vocal, I'm sure they will have quite a nice profit from all the people that don't check their CC accounts. I'm sure there is a decent percentage of people that won't even notice a few extra charges.

Re:Great Business Plan (4, Insightful)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785626)

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to rampant stupidity and incompetence. This is EA afterall.

Re:Great Business Plan (2, Interesting)

GNUALMAFUERTE (697061) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785896)

Or what can be attributed to a crappy API. Even on a stable, well proven app, a shitty API (Like Paypal's payflow pro) will make your life misserable. I'm not defending EA here, those guys are worse than microsoft, just stating a technical fact, and a possible theory of how this happened.

It's happened to me before. You have a working app, paypal or your bank or someone else decides to change something on their side without previous knowledge, and they only test it with their official SDK (most of the times java-only). All of the people that implemented their own codebase on another language, get screwed over. Hopefully, automated charging will just fail. In some cases, something like this will happened. Over the years, it's happened to me once with Paypal, once with Wachovia, and once with 2Checkout.

Re:Great Business Plan (3, Insightful)

mirix (1649853) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786094)

Shitty API still falls under incompetence, does it not?

Re:Great Business Plan (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786072)

This is EA afterall.

Oh, so you're saying it was malice?

(j/k standard disclaimers apply)

Re:Great Business Plan (3, Insightful)

genner (694963) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786152)

This is EA afterall.

Oh, so you're saying it was malice? (j/k standard disclaimers apply)

It's both. Malicious incompentence, two words that describe much of the industry.

Re:Great Business Plan (4, Insightful)

Nukenin (646365) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785878)

Considering one subscriber in the linked discussion thread [warhammeronline.com] got charged 13 times for his ~$77.94 6-month subscription (which wasn't even up for renewal for another five months), for a total of $1,013.22 in charges—yeah, this sort of thing will fly under everybody's radar.

Many players probably use debit cards tied to their personal checking accounts; I'm sure they'd notice multiple charges. Even more so if they live paycheck to paycheck.

Even though EA/Mythic are allegedly working with their payment processing vendor(s) to reverse all the extraneous charges, they're still putting the onus on the customer to check with their respective financial institutions to ensure that any fees incurred are voided or reversed. I'm sure that is going to give said customers the warm fuzzies about continuing their patronage.

Total clusterfuck on the part of EA/Mythic. Heads should roll, and liberally.

Re:Great Business Plan (1)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786134)

Anyone know how these multiple charges occur within the system? I would think it hard to write a billing system so it could accidentally charge people dozens of times. Even if it had some glitch to try to repeatedly make charges, there should be some check to see if the account it up to be billed again. This isn't the first (or will it be the last) time I've heard of this kind of problem, so this must be a bigger problem than I would be inclined to think.

Re:Great Business Plan (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786838)

Anyone know how these multiple charges occur within the system? I would think it hard to write a billing system so it could accidentally charge people dozens of times.

Ask Dreamhost - the company that billed a few years in advance.

Re:Great Business Plan (1)

Lunoria (1496339) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786222)

Of course you should check your bank statements. Anything to do with electronic transactions can and will screw up. I've had a restaurant bill me twice, because the first time their terminal said not completed, but the money was taken out already. If it involves money, always check your statements.

Re:Great Business Plan (1)

chewy_fruit_loop (320844) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786896)

been reading the forum post ...." My fees were 13 charges of 6 month subscriptions, 77.94 X 13 = 1013.12 I didn't have this much money in my account....."

omgwtfbbq!!!

i'd be asking for money back, bank charges paid and compensation...then canceling the account

Banks (3, Insightful)

Andy Smith (55346) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785642)

ask customers' banks to refund them once the actual charges are refunded
Yes because banks are so courteous to their customers [meejahor.com] .

Re:Banks (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785758)

Okay working for a financial institution myself, I can tell you that it is very likely if the charges are on a Visa Debit Card, people do have recourse. Due to Visa's Zero Liability Coverage [visa.com] , people who bank with an institution that participates in the VZL are likely to get the funds back if they file a Dispute with their bank or credit union. Fees resulting from the erroneous charges are also likely to be refunded as well. However, each institution is different and some don't fully participate in the Zero Liability Program. If you bank with an institution that tells you to go fuck yourself, it's time to switch to a new bank, or better yet, just switch to a credit union.

So to summarize, call your bank if you were one of the ones fucked over by EA and request an immediate dispute on all charges beyond the one authorized and agreed upon charges (and then proceed to cancel your subscription to Warhammer). Also, as a word to the wise, make sure to ask your bank to stop subscription charges from EA. Just canceling and getting a new debit card isn't enough. If a merchant has an authorization for subscription billing, they can still bill the card even after the card is canceled, since they have an authorization already.

Re:Banks (1)

RoFLKOPTr (1294290) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786274)

I had a 1&1 subscription that I forgot about and was charged for, which resulted in an overdraft fee of $35, as well as several subsequent $35 overdraft fees on small few-dollar purchases and multiple $5 "Continued Overdraft" fees every day for almost a week. I had 1&1 cancel my account and refund what I paid minus a dollar or so, and Wells Fargo had no problem reversing every single one of those fees once the credit posted. I'm sure other banks would be the same way.

This was a purchase that was not fraudulent. It was not overcharged. It was unexpected, but not in a way that I couldn't possibly have known it was coming. It was my own fuckup, but it was still completely taken care of once 1&1 refunded my money. This isn't a matter of courtesy, this is a matter of legality. A bank can't keep overdraft fees when they have guaranteed protection against fraudulent use of your credit/debit cards.

Re:Banks (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786842)

Screw the bank being decent, I'm more amazed that 1&1 refunded you! Did you kidnap their VP's daughter or something?

Re:Banks (1)

RoFLKOPTr (1294290) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786924)

Screw the bank being decent, I'm more amazed that 1&1 refunded you! Did you kidnap their VP's daughter or something?

His son, actually.

But in all seriousness, I've never had a problem with 1&1 on the customer service front, and refunds are automatic when you cancel your service effective immediately: cancel.1and1.com [1and1.com] . I think they have a 30-day guarantee on new service which gives you a full refund if you cancel, but after that, you get a pro-rated refund, and you can cancel at any time for any reason.

Re:Banks (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786800)

To be fair, I've never found Barclays in the UK to be too bad to me.

GOA (used to run European Dark Age of Camelot) continued to bill me after I'd cancelled my subscription. I spent weeks trying to get hold of them and to get them to refund me and they did. Only they billed me again after that, so I contact the bank and asked them to reverse the charge and block any future charges, and even though it was a debit card, which I was told they will not do that for, they did.

I was also double charged by a hotel (Delta) and Airline (Air Canada) in the past, and in both cases the bank was happy to refund the overdraw charges these incurred.

I've even been victim of card fraud, where an online retailer had their database hacked and obviously didn't store card details in an encrypted form such that my details were used in Italy to buy 350 euros worth of Italian mobile phone credit. It was a ball ache, but at least there was no real hassle in getting the money back other than filling in the forms for a fraudulent transaction report they were quite helpful about it all, even allowing me a temporary overdraw limit with no charges incurred for using it so that I wasn't out of money for the 10 day period they investigated it and returned the money over.

Don't get me wrong, it should still be handled better, I personally have no interest in the ability to get negative on my debit card account so frankly I'd rather they bank had just refused the second charging requests altogether because I didn't have money in my account for the second charge in both cases, but I recognise that's how they make their money to offer these accounts free in the UK- by taking advantage of stupid people who really do spend more than they have. I also don't think it was sensible that they allowed use of my card from Italy, when I'd used it around the same time in the UK either - I can't be in two places at once for crying out loud, so there's certainly a lot they could do.

The point is though, in the cases where things like this did happen to me through no fault of my own, Barclays have always been fair in resolving the issue for me.

I can't really comment on other banks, I know my parents had problems with Natwest though when my grandmother became ill, such that although my grandmother had given permission and filled in all the forms to allow my parents to manage her account on their behalf, Natwest still refused access and blocked my grandmother out too claiming she was mentally unfit to access her own money, and that she was also mentally unfit to allow my parents to manage it for her! Luckily in their case the FSA intervened and sorted Natwest out for them though because they were actually breaking their legal obligations, so certainly it's not always a pretty picture.

Re:Banks (1, Insightful)

makomk (752139) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786978)

To be fair, I've never found Barclays in the UK to be too bad to me.

Yeah, but we have actual regulation of banks here, unlike in the US.

Lawsuit (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785646)

3 elements of the tort of negligence:

1) Did they owe the claimant a duty of care?
Yes. By getting direct access to their bank accounts, they had to take care not to overcharge.

2) Did they breach that duty?
Yes. They charged multiple times.

3) Did that breach cause damage?
Yes. Customers were put into overdraft (and who know how many cheques bounced because of it).

Re:Lawsuit (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785694)

you forget the 4th one :
4) are the damages enough to realistically sue them and spend thousands of dollars in legal fees ?
No.

Re:Lawsuit (5, Funny)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785730)

4) are the damages enough to realistically sue them and spend thousands of dollars in legal fees ? No.

Aw, come on. This is a perfect example of why we have class-action lawsuits. It's not worth it for any single member of the class to pursue it in the courtroom, but banded together with sufficient legal representation, they could put the hurt on EA.

This would be perfect, I can see it now:

Court findings: For the plaintiffs, the sum of $1,000,000 to be split among the class and awarded in vouchers for three months of free play on Warhammer Online, plus lawyers' fees of $10,000,000 to be awarded in cash to the legal representation team.

Re:Lawsuit (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786068)

it's called small claims court, a perfect place for $770 in wrongful overdraft charges

Re:Lawsuit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786060)

Those U.S. customers who can't get their banks to waive the overdraft charges can probably win in Small Claims Court. That's fairly cheap, and it should be possible to get the judgment out of EA/Mythic somehow...

Where's my computerized credit card? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785648)

I probably left it in the glove compartment of my flying car.

I thought that, by now, we would have computerized bank accounts with asymmetric encryption, so that I can write a shell script and put it in a cron job to automatically send the $20 monthly payment to my MMORPG provider. The electronic pseudocheck would have a date, a recipient, an amount, and an RSA digital signature. It would prevent mistakes like this, as well as most credit card fraud.

Until we get this system (never), just don't tie your bank account to anything. Use your credit card for everything electronic, since you can always dispute the charge.

Mod up (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785664)

I am out of mod points. +5 Informative

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (0, Troll)

mark-t (151149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785668)

You can dispute the charge with a debit transaction also... the process takes up to two months, but can be expedited to less than a week if the merchant cooperates right away.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

Peach Rings (1782482) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785714)

In the meantime, your checks bounce and if you lose the dispute then you have a mountain of overdraft charges.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (0, Troll)

mark-t (151149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786128)

No. Not if you contact your bank and inform of the situation. It happened to me once and after I called the bank, they ensured that everything still went through. I was not charged any overdraft fees while the investigation was under way and I got my money back in about two weeks.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (3, Interesting)

A nonymous Coward (7548) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786588)

Two weeks? You were without your own cash for two weeks and think that is perfectly acceptable?

The worst that happens with a credit card is it hits a credit limit and won't accept more charges. Maybe some automatic charges are denied because of this, but you can probably put them on a different card in the meantime and not really lose anything but some hassle. Meanwhile you dispute the bogus charges and the merchant loses and gets a black eye with real financial encouragement to do better: they pay more for credit card purchases due to their lousy track record, and if their lousy track record gets too lousy, they lose all ability to accept credit cards.

Contrast this with a debit account, where your own money is gone, you are guilty until proven innocent, and the merchant's only incentive to not do so again is losing your business.

Now maybe you are the kind of anal freak who checks your checking account balance and transactions every hour; you might catch malfeasance quick enough to undo most of the damage. But most of the rest of us only check it when we withdraw cash from the ATM or make a deposit. Once a week if we are lucky, once a month when the statement comes otherwise. That's a long time to not know about missing cash.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (5, Insightful)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785746)

You can dispute the charge with a debit transaction also... the process takes up to two months, but can be expedited to less than a week if the merchant cooperates right away.

Meanwhile, the cash is held in suspense until the dispute is resolved, meaning you'll still be left with no cash and a rash of bank charges if the sum held in suspense prevented you from having sufficient funds for clearing items.

No thanks.

Debit cards are bad, bad juju if you give someone else the authority to initiate charges against them.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785828)

not true. In most cases, depending on your bank, you are given a provisional credit until the dispute is resolved. If not, you are banking with a bad fucking bank.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1, Informative)

mark-t (151149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786020)

Actually, in my experience, my bank was very cooperative, making sure I suffered no NSF fees as a result and all automatic payments were still carried through... essentially, forwarding me a temporary credit to my account up to the amount I was out to while the investigation proceeded. I did not have to pay any extra fees for this credit. Took about two weeks for me to get my money back.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

A nonymous Coward (7548) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786600)

And what if you had not noticed the error until other debits bounced?

Debit cards suck for automatic charges in comparison to credit cards. Your excuses and rationalizations do not make this untrue, they merely point out the obvious, that yes, debit cards suck for automatic withdrawals.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (2, Interesting)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785766)

Good stuff until the FUD at the end. If it's a debit card with a Visa or Mastercard logo, the dispute rights are exactly the same as they would be with a credit card.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785976)

If these Warhammer users had the same dispute rights as credit cards, then there would be no outrage. It looks like they had tied their bank accounts directly to their Warhammer accounts, without any debit card in the middle.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (-1, Flamebait)

shentino (1139071) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786716)

I praise EA then, as it's a nice stupid tax for giving such an evil company direct access to your bank account.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

AK Marc (707885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786028)

If it's a debit card with a PIN transaction, then no. If it's a debit run as a credit card, then almost. The difference is that with a "real" credit card, your account is hit with the charge. You then dispute it. You pay the rest. Then you get the non-paid amount deleted if you win, or added back in if you lose.

With a debit transaction, you lose the money from your account, possibly incurring other charges. Then, when you learn about the improperly charged transaction, you have the charge removed. However, you can still have fees from transactions that took place between the improper charge and the removal. The dispute process doesn't cover those fees. With every credit card I've had, the dispute process does include lifting such fees. Not to mention that credit card companies are much more likely to remove fees with a good excuse because they know you will just pick up and move. But banks are often from convenience (you go to the one with the close branch and ATM) so they can screw you a lot more before you'll move.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786138)

Go read up some on the Zero Liability Coverage from Visa. As long as the institution participates in the coverage (which, if they don't, indicates that you need to switch banks), then you will get provisional credits on your account until the dispute is resolved either for or against your favor. Generally it isn't instant (usually takes about a week or less, depending on the institution), but it's not like you are sitting without your money for a few months as you would have people believe. Seriously, research before you spout off. And yes, the dispute does generally result in the fees assessed as part of the disputed charges being waived as well. Again, if this is not the case with the bank you do business with, that's your fault for not doing some research to ensure you are with a good institution. This is one of many reasons why I prefer being with a credit union over a bank. Their business model isn't designed around screwing with people's money.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

AK Marc (707885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786214)

Seriously, research before you spout off.

You didn't say anything that disagreed with me. The debit (PIN) debit (credit card) and separate credit card dispute processes are separate. You disagreed, then never addressed my only point.

And yes, the dispute does generally result in the fees assessed as part of the disputed charges being waived as well.

The fees of that one overdraft, yes. Are you asserting that all overdraft charges from the time of that one charge until the time the disputed amount is credited to the account will also be covered? That's the assertion you'd have to make for me to be wrong, and you have been asserting that I'm ignorant without addressing the comments I made. Address the comments or quit insinuating that I'm wrong.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786254)

When does someone pay a fucking MMO subscription with a pin-based transaction. Show me when that's ever happened, short of buying a time card at a store.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

AK Marc (707885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786540)

Never. What does that have to do with the protections from different transaction methods?

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786554)

My point is that the lack of zero liability with pin-based transactions doesn't apply in this case. No one is paying for Warhammer with a pin-based transaction.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786268)

The fees of that one overdraft, yes. Are you asserting that all overdraft charges from the time of that one charge until the time the disputed amount is credited to the account will also be covered? That's the assertion you'd have to make for me to be wrong, and you have been asserting that I'm ignorant without addressing the comments I made. Address the comments or quit insinuating that I'm wrong.

I don't know who the hell you bank with but you need to run, and run fast. I bank with an institution that not only gives a provisional credit during the dispute (as per guidelines by Visa's Zero Liability Policy) but also for the fees themselves until the dispute process is COMPLETE. I guess if you are with some crummy bank like Bank of America or something like that, than yeah, you are probably out of luck. I'll just thank my lucky stars I actually do business with a good institution.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

AK Marc (707885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786566)

I don't know who the hell you bank with but you need to run, and run fast.

So, you are saying, "you are correct 100%, I'm wrong, and and the protections are as you say, not as I say." That you'd try to find someone that doesn't do it that way is irrelevant to the point you've never disputed about what the dispute process involves. Whether your institution does something in addition is completely irrelevant to the specific topic of what must happen for the dispute process.

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (2, Informative)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786180)

Here in Australia, every bank I've been with offer similar services. You can setup automatic deposits into any other Aussie bank account, or to any service provider that provides billing through a system called BPay (all relatively-large companies do). These payments can be once-off, or recurring, and do not incur transaction fees.

Granted, I can't do it via cron with a shell-script, but I can do it. I generally don't give direct debit access to any company; I either automatically pay via this system (majority), or use a direct debit card (which uses the VISA network, and is identical to a credit card in its disputation rights, but uses actual cash rather than credit).

Re:Where's my computerized credit card? (1)

Inda (580031) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786930)

Are you being sarcastic AC? It's so hard to tell from your posting history and your lack of emoticons.

Computerised bank accounts are normal.

Shell scripts are not needed. A simple online form is all that is needed. We call them Standing Orders.

A Chip'n'Pin reader (encrypted), password, PIN, and customer number (not bank account number) provide more than enough authentication.

Welcome to the UK.

Insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785672)

Holy cow that is insane. Of all the ways they could screw up, this has to rank near the top for maximum carnage on people's real life.

Crazy the bug was made in the first place, even crazier that it passed QA. Billing code guy is going to be toast.

Re:Insane (1)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785760)

Of all the ways they could screw up, this has to rank near the top for maximum carnage on people's real life.

That's a bit heavy-handed. It's just money, inconvenience, and credit score that will be harmed. No real damage to life and limb.

This is Warhammer, after all -- they could have unleashed a few Dwarven Berserkers on their customers to "encourage" multiple subscriptions or something.

Re:Insane (4, Informative)

feuerfalke (1034288) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785820)

Not everyone has hundreds of dollars to spare for a fuckup like this - some people were charged upwards of a thousand dollars! Not everyone can afford the tens or hundreds of dollars of fees they'll be facing, not just in overdraft fees, but also fees for bounced checks, etc. There are lots of people who live paycheck to paycheck - they feed themselves, maybe their kids, they pay rent... but there's not too much left over to save up after that. Even just a few days in which someone can't pay bills can cause a great deal of carnage in someone's life.

Re:Insane (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786680)

If you're living paycheck to paycheck then the last thing you should be doing is having an MMO subscription.

Re:Insane (1)

The Wild Norseman (1404891) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785928)

That's a bit heavy-handed. It's just money, inconvenience, and credit score that will be harmed. No real damage to life and limb.

Oh, really? And what happens when I won't be able to charge the operation that my ailing grandmother needs? I mean, quadruple bypass surgery and double lung transplants don't just grow on trees, ya know!

Not so smug now, are we?

Re:Insane (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786162)

The key part was "Of all the ways they could screw up". And for many, not being able to buy groceries for 2 weeks is pretty damned bad.

I suppose they could have accidentally mailed fliers laced with ricin and DMSO, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Re:Insane (1)

azaris (699901) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786358)

The key part was "Of all the ways they could screw up". And for many, not being able to buy groceries for 2 weeks is pretty damned bad.

I suppose they could have accidentally mailed fliers laced with ricin and DMSO, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Yeah, only Ubisoft does that to their customers.

Chargebacks (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785682)

Were I on the receiving end of these charges, I'd just call my bank and have them process a charge back. Let EA handle the fees from that.

Also, teach you a lesson of never, ever putting things like this on a debit card that can pull money straight from your account.

Re:Chargebacks (1)

pcolaman (1208838) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785780)

This is one of the things that really makes me want the inconvenience of having to buy monthly time cards like those sold for WoW and some other MMOs. Better to have to go to the store each month or buy a batch of these cards and input the codes once a month than to go through such a problem.

Re:Chargebacks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31785792)

Yeah, it's much better to use a credit card and pay interest or, even better, those "screw you for keeping a zero balance" fees.

Re:Chargebacks (1)

stuckinphp (1598797) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786262)

I don't pay interest on my credit card unless I owe them money.

I don't pay any fees on my credit card unless i'm using it (I don't think I get billed unless I stop using it for like 6 months (never going to happen for me)).

I don't know who you bank with but you need to change.

Re:Chargebacks (1)

Bureaucromancer (1303477) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785836)

Where have you found the bank that does charge backs on request? Mine makes me jump through obnoxious hoops amounting to me demonstrating that I have both disputed the charge where it originated from, AND given the "sufficient" time to respond. Then they do their own bloody investigation, which takes weeks beyond that. Really annoying when the local paper I haven't subscribe to in years decided to restart the subscription, but couldn't find any records of how it happened, or that the charges even existed.

On a related note (1)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785732)

It is usually a good idea to call up your bank and opt-out of their overdraft "service". Some people may prefer to pay a fee to save embarrassment of letting people know their account is empty, but usually you can just pull out a credit card if need be. Not to mention some banks intentionally re-order transactions to hit multiple overdraft fees, so if you're one of those unlucky people you never want to overdraft. A good alternate solution is to switch to a credit union, as they tend to have better customer service.

As far as this story goes, can EA actually refuse to pay the overdraft fees? It's their error so it makes no sense for people to pay overdraft fees despite doing nothing wrong. I wouldn't know if there is any legal basis to force EA to pay up, or if it is just up to their "good will".

Re:On a related note (2, Informative)

Andy Smith (55346) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785812)

Banks in the UK notoriously operate a catch-22 procedure:

If your account is allowed to go overdrawn:
1. You are charged for processing of the debit that takes you overdrawn.
2. You are then charged for being overdrawn.
This amounts to around £65 of charges for going overdrawn.

If you instruct the bank not to let your account go overdrawn:
1. You are charged for the rejection of a debit that would have taken you overdrawn.
2. You are charged again every time the debit request is repeated, which may be each day.
3. Some banks also charge you for notifying you of each request being rejected, and don't allow you to opt out of these notifications.

Our banks have recently been under a lot of pressure to make their overdraft charges fairer. Here's the solution that some of them came up with:

1. If you use an authorised overdraft, you are charged £1 per day.
2. If you go over the authorised limit, you are charged £5 per day.

Work it out and you'll soon see that this is more damaging to customers and the banks are only getting richer.

Re:On a related note (1)

linzeal (197905) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786120)

There is a reason why there are so many fees attached to small deposit accounts, they are plentiful and the people behind them have neither the wherewithal or the know how to fight the charges. My millionaire aunt got hit with a 50 dollar fee once and she was talking to the one of the VPs of the bank. Try asking for escalation when you have less than 100 bucks in your account.

Re:On a related note (3, Interesting)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786374)

My millionaire aunt got hit with a 50 dollar fee once and she was talking to the one of the VPs of the bank. Try asking for escalation when you have less than 100 bucks in your account.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. My wife had an issue with a US Bank credit card that she almost never used, with only a $500 credit line on it. She was late, got a fee which overlimited her, and got a subsequent fee for that. They reversed both, told her to make a payment, $x. Turns out $x was a little small and three days later she was reassessed those fees, as the computer didn't view $x as the minimum payment.

US Bank's credit card department wouldn't entertain the error as being even worth investigating. In their mind, the fact that they had "courtesy waived" fees previously meant that they wouldn't again. They wouldn't accept that we weren't asking for a courtesy waiver, but that although we appreciated it, we were asking them to investigate their error (and had it been shown that my wife was in the wrong, would have accepted it).

No dice.

Even our local branch manager spent 90 minutes on the phone with them with us in her office, but she held no sway.

My wife said "fuck it, we'll pay, and close the account".

I told her I had one last trick... I wrote a letter explaining this, explaining our frustration, the goodwill it had destroyed, years of loyal, though small customer... I had my wife sign the letter, and I addressed and mailed it to US Bancorp's Executive Vice President and Chief Credit Officer. My wife? "What's the point? They won't care."

Two weeks later, she got a phone call from him, apologizing, offering to reimburse all fees and give her account a $200 credit as a gesture of regret... very little to them, but they could have done a lot less...

AND THIS DUTCH PEOPLE IS WHY WE NEED POSTBANK (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786538)

And to all dutch people reading, this is why the disappearance of the Postbank is a really bad thing. We forget just how good we got it as consumers when the government used to run the cheapest bank around.

Pin charges, used to be free but still an insignificant amount compared to Credit Card charges.

None of the penalty payments like the above. If you can go in the the red, then you just pay the reasonable loan rate over the amount borrowed. There are no penalties. If you are not allowed to go in the red (you can turn this feature off), then you pay nothing. Any charges against your account simply don't get handled. No penalty fees again.

There is no allowance for repeating incasso to many times. The initial agreements specifies the repeat interval. Any company that abuses it faces the full fury of the bank, because the costs are fully for the bank, and banks don't like companies that upset their customers.

Market forces are NOT a good thing when it comes to handling your meager savings. Let the Americans have their silly banks and let us keep our cheap ones. Where you don't have to pay a bank for the privilege of holding your money.

Re:On a related note (1)

SupremoMan (912191) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785902)

Only problem is bouncing a check will cost em money too. So either overdraft or bounce! I suppose in case of EBT the transaction will not go through.

Re:On a related note (1)

Hangtime (19526) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785992)

With the passage of CARD Act and the accompanying Fed rules related to penalty fees customers are no longer opt-in, but automatically opt-out by default. Unless you specifically opt-in for overdraft protection your debit card will be declined if there are insufficient funds or the in the case of a check it will go NSF. This is the reason you should never have a recurring charge set against your debit card. A debit card has significantly restricted rights when it comes to chargeback. Chargeback is VERY, VERY powerful, instructing the issuer to deny the charge and recoup from the merchants bank who in turn takes it out of the merchants account, merchants then have only a few days to respond. The Acquiring bank can increase the interchange if a merchant is receiving a high number of chargebacks (or drop the merchant altogether) as well as pass along the network fines for chargeback (Visa, MasterCard, Amex, Discover, etc.) that in the case of serious offenders can go $100 per transaction.

Hopefully, this shows you how effective a weapon chargeback can be in the cases like this and why if their is any question as to the scruples of the merchant you should always use a credit card for the purchase.

Re:On a related note (1)

Rasperin (1034758) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786078)

EA can do what it damn well pleases about the overdraft fees. The class action suit might make them change there mind though. Any action can happen but whas an equivalent reaction.

Re:On a related note (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786728)

Doing a chargeback on your credit card is probably a violation of the EULA.

Banks Refunding Fees (4, Insightful)

RWarrior(fobw) (448405) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785806)

I've incurred overdraft fees based on merchant error a number of times, and every bank [bankofamerica.com] I [wellsfargo.com] have [citibank.com] ever [1stcb.com] had [woodforest.com] has done everything they can to screw their customers out of as much money as possible. EA expecting banks to refund overdraft fees is like asking EA to ... I don't know ... behave like a company that cares about its customers.

Credit Union (3, Informative)

beakerMeep (716990) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785914)

Find yourselves a good credit union people. Mine has no ATM fees, refunds ATM fees that *other* banks charge me, doesnt ever reorder checks to double hit me, has a max fee of $30, and has about the best customer service and relationship of any company I have ever dealt with. And probably about a dozen other good things I can't think of off the top of my head.

There is literally no reason whatsoever to give your money and soul to Citibank or Chase or BoA these days.

Re:Banks Refunding Fees (1)

Twanfox (185252) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786098)

Sometimes there are some banks that treat their customers right. While the one I house my money at is labeled as a bank, it acts very much better than even the best credit unions, and I like credit unions. True overdraft protection without fee, with your own money, handled automatically! A policy of deposits before charges when processed in batch. I've had as of yet absolutely no complaints with my bank, had no fees charged yet with them, and in fact the one time they were well within their right to charge me a fee (wire transfer), they waved it due to some misunderstandings on my part.

This all might come from the fact that it may have limited membership because of who runs it or the particular type of clients they typically serve, but being a bank I can't imagine they have membership requirements.

Re:Banks Refunding Fees (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786392)

Exactly. My credit union has waived fees on numerous occasions, dug deep into their clearing house internal records and made them available to us during a dispute with our property management company over rent payments and the alleged lateness thereof...

AND has a policy of a) crediting all deposits before withdrawals, b) giving 24 hours grace on any overdraft, and c) assessing all withdrawals during a day in a "smallest to largest" format, to minimize the number of overdrafts generated (although, on the two or three occasions where we had more than one, they seem to also have a non-stated 'one overdraft fee per day' policy.

Tip for those wanting fee refunds (3, Funny)

rennerik (1256370) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785922)

I've been with a number of banks, including BofA, Washington Mutual, and lately Wells Fargo. I'm not that old, but I've been banking for around 10 years, so I've had my fair share of unfair fees and what-not, but all in all, there has been one thing that has helped me over the years, and that is establishing a personal relationship with your banker.

Many banks see you as just a number with some cash tied to it. The more cash you have, the more valuable your business, but unless you have tens of thousands of cash at a branch, most banks don't care. So, in lieu of having a bunch of cash, you'll have to cash in (bad pun intended) on the human element to get human treatment.

For me, I make sure I go into the branch every now and then to make deposits, and stop by my banker's desk, ask her how her day is going, and so on. These five minute conversations are important, because they re-enforce your presence to them, and they show that you care. Once a year, for Christmas/New Year's, I buy her a small gift and write her a card (expensive isn't important; under $20 is perfect). I make sure to thank her for everything, wish her a great year, and so on.

So, for a bit of attention and a
My point is, we can all complain that banks are evil machines not caring about people, but we're part of the problem because we treat them like machines. But if we make that effort to treat them as a company run by humans, we might make some headway towards being treated as humans in turn.

(Disclaimer: YMMV of course. I left BofA because no one there gave a shit. I'd had luck with both WF and WaMu)

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (1)

rennerik (1256370) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785960)

Sorry, bad form to reply to myself, but Slashdot ate part of my comment.

"So for a bit of attention and a..." was supposed to go:

So for a bit of attention and a $20 gift per year, you can have someone who will fight for you and treat you like a human being within the huge bureaucracy of a bank. Case-in-point: Earlier this year I had over $400 worth of overdraft fees applied to my account because of an oversight by me. I appealed to my banker, explained my situation, and she was happy to reverse the charges. She could only reverse $300, but she appealed to the assistant branch manager who reversed the last $100 for me. Last year I had a similar incident, albeit with a smaller amount ($200). She helped me then, too, with no fuss.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (2, Interesting)

Rasperin (1034758) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786106)

Interesting, can I get that bank employee's name? It's actually _illegal_ to accept any gift of any monetary value from a customer. This is not just a code of ethics thing, it's illegal on a federal level. Such as I work for a medium midwestern bank, I didn't know this policy so when my father (who banks there) decided to give me a gift for Christmas, I was forced to give it back. (My fault for saying how I got a nice gift card to Outback to my boss...). I then was forced to file a report to Feds which was an 11 page document explaining why I received it, it's approximate value, and a signature showing that the gift was returned. Anyways point is, not only can that employee get slapped with charges, you can get slapped with charges also for giving a gift to a bank employee.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (2, Informative)

broken_chaos (1188549) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786216)

This says you're wrong. [fdic.gov]

Read the 'exceptions' list. Exception (a) applies to your situation (father giving you a gift), and exception (f) applies to both your situation and the grandparent's banker's situation (Christmas gifts). For your situation, there would be no value limit on such a gift (exception (a) places no limit on value), and for the grandparent's situation, $20 would certainly be 'reasonable' (the limit on exception (f)) for a Christmas gift.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (1)

Acius (828840) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786242)

I'm guessing you are not a lawyer, and therefore I can argue with you (not that it would stop me anyway, I suppose).

Quoting from a random bank code of ethics found online:

No gifts, regardless of value, are to be encouraged or solicited by employees in connection with the
Bank’s business or responsibilities. However, employees, as expressions of courtesy and appreciation
may accept gifts in kind such as fruits, flowers or candy so long as their monetary value is minimal and
does not represent a “substantial gift.”

I'm not a lawyer either. But he did say less than $20.00. Even legislators can usually accept in-kind gifts with a value less than $20.00. So, in fact, the rules of at least one bank specifically allow for this kind of thing, and I doubt that the bank's code of ethics is in violation of federal rules.

Regarding your own experience of receiving a gift *from your own father*, that sounds like a control-freak manager being more of a jerk than is strictly necessary. Most banks have a totally separate set of ethical rules governing dealing with employee family members anyway.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (1)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785984)

I'd had luck with [...] WaMu

[Parse error]

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (5, Insightful)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785986)

My point is, we can all complain that banks are evil machines not caring about people, but we're part of the problem because we treat them like machines.

Woah woah, wait... let me get this straight. I *choose* to patronize a bank, enriching them through my custom. Now you're telling me, that's not enough? That I essentially have to bribe them for good fucking service?

I'm sorry, buddy, but that's pure, complete bullshit. I am their fucking client. It's their job to please *me*, not the other way around. Now, do these employees deserve to be treated with kindness, dignity, and respect? Yes, of course, just like every other human being out there. But I am not, and should not, be obligated to buy fucking flowers for the local bank branch manager just so that I get decent service. Hell, the very fact that you believe that's necessary speaks to their rank arrogance. It's utterly absurd.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786074)

Not only that, but most banks I've been with shuffle employees around every once in a while. I'll give you (actually the GP) a better scenario. I had a friend who, due to his own mistakes, caused a few overdraft charges on his account that he disagreed with. They were his fault (even if he didn't think so) so we worked his way up the chain of command at US Bank. Eventually got the phone number of the guy who oversaw the whole west coast after a bit of digging. That guy's response? "How much money are we talking about? Why am I being bothered with this? Refund the charges." At the level this guy was at the charges seemed insignificant, so they weren't worth his time to discuss, but it wasn't hard to tell that my friend wasn't going to give up, either, since this guy was something like 6 levels above a branch manager. He wasn't aggressive, so it wasn't like they could claim he was anything but a nuisance, and he was able to make his case sound somewhat reasonable (I still say he was wrong).

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786432)

I'm sorry, buddy, but that's pure, complete bullshit. I am their fucking client. It's their job to please *me*, not the other way around.

They see you as a piggybank.
For every dollar you have sitting in your checking/saving account, they invest or lend 8~12 dollars.
Managing your deposits is usually a very small part of what banks do.

Re:Tip for those wanting fee refunds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786614)

He has a good point though. Most people aren't going to be terribly interested in giving your money much thought, because its just a job to them. If you want employees who are zealots, go to starbucks or the apple store. Your not going to get someone who is excited to be serving you at a bank, because their not. Personalizing it makes them more likely to treat you like a customer that stands out, because you become a customer that stands out.

No offense, but that's one thing I hate (3, Interesting)

Moraelin (679338) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786634)

No offense, but I _hate_ people who stop to make conversation with a clerk while 20 people queue behind them with other problems. I remember spending an hour in line when I had an actual problem, because half the people in front of me were trying to chat up the clerk about the weather or about their kids. And half of those didn't even have any reason to clog a clerk's time instead of using the ATM in the hall.

And then there are those who'll try to chat up the cashier at a checkout line at the supermarket. Usually even I can tell that that cashier isn't interested, and is just spewing more mono-syllabic responses than the stereotypical husband, but some old lady just won't shut the fuck up with trying to start a chat anyway.

I always figured out that those must be just some lonely people, but if it's just trying to treat a corporation like real people... here's a thought for them: see those people behind you? Those are real people too. Just a thought.

Dark Age too... (1)

Siberwulf (921893) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785946)

Dark Age of Camelot (the game that put Mythic on the map) players were affected too. Unfortunately, DAoC players don't have the luxury of prepaid game cards, and MUST use a CC/Debit card to pay for their account.

I'm not sure why people are surprised, this isn't the first time there's been a billing issue: See here [warhammeronline.com]

Re:Dark Age too... (1)

Barny (103770) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786332)

Yeah, got hit for $450AU more than I should have, meh, just wait for them to reverse it, I won't lose sleep and it won't dissuade me from running my 2 groups around agramon this weekend trying to nibble zergs and backdoor 8-mans :)

If a few hundred dollars extra can overdraft a credit card, you are probably using it wrong.

In all honesty though, if your in the shit with this, print it all out, go to your local bank and ask to speak with a loans person and raise your CC limit for a month.

Title correction (5, Insightful)

T Murphy (1054674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31785948)

Title should read "Former Warhammer Online Users Repeatedly Overbilled"

don't know if this is related but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786044)

Frost bank recently sent me an update of their overdraft policies:
"We will charge you a fee of up to $30 each time we pay an overdraft.
There is no limit on the total fees we can charge you for overdrawing your account."
the bold $30 was as they printed it and the phrase "no limit" was underlined by them.
luckily i don't play Warhammer, but i wonder if this notice was related...

Re:don't know if this is related but... (1)

SgtAaron (181674) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786250)

Frost bank recently sent me an update of their overdraft policies:
"We will charge you a fee of up to $30 each time we pay an overdraft.
There is no limit on the total fees we can charge you for overdrawing your account."
the bold $30 was as they printed it and the phrase "no limit" was underlined by them.
luckily i don't play Warhammer, but i wonder if this notice was related...

My friend, the management of Frost Bank sounds like a cold-hearted bunch. Luckily for them, they'll be able to take your hard-earned fees and distribute them to their various boat payments. The warmth of the Caribbean will no doubt make up for months of freezing in Manhattan--or wherever you and Frost Bank live in the world :-)

Chargebacks for Visa have consequences (5, Informative)

Animats (122034) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786296)

What may happen is that most of the people who used credit (not debit) cards demand a chargeback from their bank, EA gets hit with thousands of chargeback fees, and EA's merchant bank kicks them into a higher cost credit card category for excessive chargebacks.

There are Visa procedures for this. [visa.com] This is a chargeback code 82 - "Duplicate Processing". Likely cause: "Electronically submitted the same batch of transactions to the merchant bank more than once". See "The Chargeback Life Cycle", page 71, for an overview.

Generally, if chargebacks exceed 100 chargebacks and 1% of transactions, the chargeback penalty provisions [terminalve...essing.com] kick in. Thereafter, the merchant is charged $100 per chargeback by the merchant's bank. The merchant is forced into Visa's "High Risk Chargeback Monitoring Program", a $5000 "review fee" is charged to the merchant for the first month, and even higher fees are charged if the problem continues.

Even big merchants have to pay. The banks have to deal individually with each customer to straighten out the mess. They charge the merchant for that.

Incidentally, "No Chargeback" sales receipts are prohibited by Visa rules and will not be enforced by banks.

EA is telling their customers [warhammeronline.com] to contact their financial institution before calling EA. It would probably be cheaper for EA if EA dealt with the problems themselves, but their call center may be too small.

Some users are complaining that EA charged them partway through the billing cycle, when they didn't owe EA a payment.

Anyway, EA will be getting a big bill from their bank.

Re:Chargebacks for Visa have consequences (1)

grominar (1099307) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786720)

I was affected. No many folks that were left in a bad state due to this. Luckily not myself, but am charging back every penny on my wife and my account.

Official EA Letter (5, Informative)

Protoslo (752870) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786310)

Dear Valued Customer,

We are sending you this email to bring this matter to your immediate attention.

It appears that some of our customers may have been inadvertently charged multiple times for their subscriptions. If you are affected, you should start seeing a reversal of charges within 24-36 hours. We anticipate that once the charges have been reversed, any resulting fees that have been incurred on the affected account should be reversed as well. If after 36 hours, there are still incorrect charges or fees on the affected account, please follow these instructions:

* Please begin by contacting your financial institution and explain to them that you were charged multiple times and, as a result, over drafted. Most financial institutions will reverse these charges.

* If your financial institution is unable to remove these charges, you may contact our billing department for help with charge reversal by calling 650-628-1001 during our hours of operation, which are 10:00 AM EDT - 10:00 PM EDT, 7 days a week. Please have the phone and fax number of your financial institution ready when you call.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience that this issue may be causing you. Please continue to watch the Herald for your respective game (http://warherald.com/ or http://camelotherald.com/ [camelotherald.com] ) in the coming days for further information regarding this issue.

Some banks provide protection against this (1)

HockeyPuck (141947) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786314)

At the bank that I use, I can generate "temporary" credit cards in which I can specify a credit limit and a expiration date. If I want to use it for reoccurring charges, like my gym membership, I can specify what the max that can be charged each month, in my case $45. Therefore if my gym screws up and tries to double charge me one month, the credit card company won't let them due to insufficient balance.

I can't believe people provide debt card/checking account numbers to anybody as there's very little protection (ie: disputing/reversing charges) compared to a credit card.

Re:Some banks provide protection against this (1)

Kalriath (849904) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786922)

And many merchants specify that they will not accept Visa Electron cards (the type of card that is). Just as a merchant can specify they will not accept business cards, or debit cards, or prepaid cards. They can be pretty granular.

I'd suggest moving to a country where more than just the fucking account number is needed to direct debit a bank account (in NZ, a signed form sent in to the bank is required).

And I thought I was just paranoid, other ramblings (1)

Cprossu (736997) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786328)

Whenever I play an mmo I'll buy a time card if I can, IRL if possible, through a reputable online site if it's not, and I also make it a point to remove my cc info from sites I buy stuff from as soon as a transaction I requested is finished. I don't use any online store or site that doesn't give me the option to remove my info...

you'd think they would have some kind of safeguard on the system before the transactions are sent to the cc companies, like if they just had someone verify a total each day before they send the billing through, they might have noticed that 15-25 times the expected amount for that day would have been a little fishy and they could have taken care of the issue internally, but that's not how anyone operates these days =(

I feel for all the people who had their bank accounts turned upside down on them, when many are doing well enough to keep the lights on and their fridges stocked... after all, many people I personally know play these sorts of games to escape the reality that we are leaving each day.. (I don't care what others say, but that little bit of sanity is worth $15 a month to many people).
Way too many people and gamers alike live day to day, with account balances well below what some were charged in this case..

Re:And I thought I was just paranoid, other rambli (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786812)

Whenever I play an mmo I'll buy a time card if I can,

I always did something similar, i.e. pay them myself each month instead of giving them permission to take money from my account.

Living in Germany - where direct transfers from one bank account to another are the standard - I always chose to directly wire the money to the company each month. Worked fine for years of Dark Age of Camelot and later Everquest 2. The latter didn't even care if I was a week late because I forgot about it ... again *cough*

I could have given them the permission to charge my account, if I was lazy. But the peace of mind was worth the minute spent transferring the money to them each month.

This is incredible (1)

Liquidrage (640463) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786478)

People still play Warhammer Online?

"banks should have no problem with this" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786558)

I have yet to see a bank not take every possible advantage to screw a customer as hard as possible. I wonder if this applies to businesses as well...

Prediction: EA outsourced to the lower bidder (1)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786734)

Yeah, how's that working out for you now? Is Honest Imran's Billing Emporium (New York, Paris, Mumbai) going to refund you the lost goodwill as well as all those chargeback bills?

omglolwtfpwnd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31786794)

nm

-1 Redundant (2, Funny)

dangitman (862676) | more than 4 years ago | (#31786884)

If you're paying for Warhammer Online, aren't you being overcharged by definition?
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