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No Linking To Japanese Newspaper Without Permission

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the thank-you-for-visiting dept.

The Media 134

stovicek writes with this excerpt from Ars Technica about the Japanese newspaper Nihon Keizai Shimbun, or Nikkei (English language site, so far apparently unaffected): "Nikkei has taken efforts to preserve its paywall to absurd new levels: anyone wanting to link to the site must submit a formal application. [...] The New York Times, which reported on the new policy on Thursday, notes that the newspaper market in Japan is radically different from that in the US. Although some smaller outlets are experimenting with new ways of reaching readers, most papers require subscriptions to access online content, and the barriers have kept circulation of print editions quite high compared to the US. Nikkei management appears worried that links could provide secret passages to content that should be safely behind the paywall, and this fear has led to the new approval policy."

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134 comments

Error 503 Service Unavailable (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798308)

You fithy cock smoking cunts! I said FIX IT!!!

Re:Error 503 Service Unavailable (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798384)

Fuck you! It's not offtopic. Your shit is broke! Fucking FIX IT!

asdf (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798310)

frist psot!

Let's write out the pseudocode... (2, Interesting)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798320)

If (RefererURL is not OurURL) or (ReferURL is Authorized) then {show denialpage;} else {show content;}

It's their site and they can do it if they want to... paywall nets cash but costs views and ad yen. Let's see where this ends up.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798326)

Hate it when I write a bug... there's a missing "not" somewhere in there.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798424)

Where would you add the not? That code is messed up. If you do "is not Authorized", it is still broken as OurUrl = false, Authorized = true would still cause denialpage. And now I assume that if OurUrl is true then Authorized will be true too. Let me suggest:

If (RefererURL is OurURL) or (RefererUrl is Authorized) then { show content; } else { show denialpage; }

In this solution we avoid unnecessary negation and I would think this would be clear for all readers. A thing to note about this approach is that this is "deny by default". Alternatively:

If (RefererURL is not OurURL) and (RefererURL is not Authorized) then { show denialpage; } else { show content };

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (2, Informative)

ultranova (717540) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799292)

If (RefererURL is Authorized) then {show content} else { make your site look bad}.

There is simply no point in hardcoding a special exception rather than handling it all in "is Authorized".

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (5, Informative)

JesseMcDonald (536341) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798436)

There's a bigger bug than that: you can't trust the referrer. It's completely controlled by the browser, not the page the link was on. Users can easily set the referrer to any string they wish, e.g. with the RefControl extension for Firefox, which will happily set it to the address of the current page—or the home page of the site—by default.

If you really want to know whether the user is authorized to view a page you need to track their session, either with (secure) cookies or (secure) URL parameters. Better yet, use standard Digest authentication and let the browser take care of the credentials. The referrer string has no place in a proper authentication protocol.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (2, Informative)

init100 (915886) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798546)

Better yet, use standard Digest authentication

There is one downside of Digest authentication compared to Basic authentication over SSL. Since Digest authentication generates a random salt which is hashed together with the password and sent to the server, the server must keep the password in plaintext in its user database. With Basic authentication, the password can be stored as a hash on the server, and with SSL the security issue with Basic authentication goes away.

SRP web logins (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799454)

Better yet, use standard Digest authentication

There is one downside of Digest authentication compared to Basic authentication over SSL. Since Digest authentication generates a random salt which is hashed together with the password and sent to the server, the server must keep the password in plaintext in its user database. With Basic authentication, the password can be stored as a hash on the server, and with SSL the security issue with Basic authentication goes away.

There's a TLS auth mechanism that uses SRP:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5054

Unfortunately it isn't widely implemented yet.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (1)

bytesex (112972) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798556)

So you build a session with an unpredictable consequence of identifiers passed on by each page, the first one of which can only be acquired by the paywall entry.

Let's write out the client command (1)

BhaKi (1316335) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798418)

rms@susebox:~> wget --referer="http://www.theirsite.com/" "targetURL"

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798628)

Hush - do not mention them or it may soon cost you like a link, right ? I'd propose we just ignore them.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (3, Insightful)

nospam007 (722110) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798690)

"The New York Times, which reported on the new policy on Thursday, notes that.."

Since the NYT will disappear behind a paywall as well soon, they will be able to sort that out in the VIP room, where none of the unwashed masses will read it.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798794)

It's not trivial to set up a paywall but it is still relatively straightforward. Any application server could be configured to intercept and validate a request. Typically it will be done with session cookie(s) holding encrypted data of some kind. If the cookie is absent or expired or invalid you redirect the browser off to the login page. If the cookie is valid, you send the browser off to the requested content. I imagine a paywall site would also have to do some kind of IP validation to prevent 1 guy buying access and posting up the info online for everyone else to use.

Re:Let's write out the pseudocode... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799150)

The difference is quality (4, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798322)

I remember when I was willing to shell out a few bucks a year for a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, our American business paper. And then Rupert Murdoch bought it and turned it into Pravda with better paper.

Now, I'm not saying that the Japanese Nikkei is any better (yes, I am), but you have to understand that in Japan there is a strict code of honor that everyone implicitly abides by. This is why there is so little petty crime and violence there compared to the U.S. It's also why people are willing to pay for music rather than download it. The penalty for disobedience and "going your own way" is social ostracization.

So it makes sense in the Japanese worldview to demand a virtual face-to-face meeting in order to link to information and stories. The linker is a supplicant who must throw himself at the feet of the information "daimyo". To do any less would shame both the supplicant and the lord.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's how it is over there. Over here, we're free to say stuff like "FIX YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE, YOU IDIOTS! IT'S BEEN BROKEN FOR HOURS!"

Re:The difference is quality (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798330)

If there's a strict code of honor that everyone abides by, why does the Yakuza exist?

Individuals are still individuals even in Japan.

Re:The difference is quality (4, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798364)

The Yakuza is part and parcel of that code. It isn't an aberration at all. It is a product of the same culture that brings you pedophilia dressed up cartoon outfits, hugely xenophobic attitudes towards other races, hivemind-like business practices, a deep insecurity of own culture, the equating of product defects with moral defects, institutionalized misogyny, and widespread depression among males.

It's a fucked up, oppressive culture that creates many terrible things, but at the same time many beautiful things. You can't separate the Yakuza from Japanese culture, just as you can't separate the geisha or sushi or cherry blossoms or Honda cars from it.

Re:The difference is quality (1, Troll)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798574)

" It isn't an aberration at all. It is a product of the same culture that brings you pedophilia dressed up cartoon outfits, hugely xenophobic attitudes towards other races, hivemind-like business practices, a deep insecurity of own culture, the equating of product defects with moral defects, institutionalized misogyny, and widespread depression among males."

you just described my impression of america.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798656)

" It isn't an aberration at all. It is a product of the same culture that brings you pedophilia dressed up cartoon outfits, hugely xenophobic attitudes towards other races, hivemind-like business practices, a deep insecurity of own culture, the equating of product defects with moral defects, institutionalized misogyny, and widespread depression among males."

you just described my impression of america.

Except for the "equating of product defects with moral defects", it seems the US is proud of their product defects and institutionalizes them as moral or character ideals.

Re:The difference is quality (3, Insightful)

Tromad (1741656) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798740)

This is straight up bullshit, I don't know if you live in Klan Country but I have lived within the US in California and Arizona and I'm not sure if a more diverse set of people live anywhere else in the world. In the middle of Republican Arizona I can get some of the most awesome authentic Afghani food available. There are entire communities of people from nearly everywhere in the world that exist in major cities here. Greek fairs, Asian fairs, Russian fairs nearly every week a culture celebrates themselves with large followings. Even suburban white people have yearly block parties and love for native american culture and western themed anything. It is true Americans are very behind in some respects but we are very open to other cultures. Even our immigration policies are more open than our neighbors (Canada in particular).

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799212)

I think you missed the point..

It was an impression and as someone who lives in the UK but has travelled extensively in both USA and Japan for many years I can attest to both impressions of the view. Of course its easy to generalize which is what the last poster was getting at. However I have close friends in both countries and of course none of them even come close to that stereotype...but as Nations from a 'world-view'? Oh yes...I can absolutely see where the impression comes from.

Re:The difference is quality (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798916)

you just described my impression of america.

You're a dick.

Re:The difference is quality (5, Insightful)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799402)

you just described my impression of america.

Nice troll. America lacks almost completely the equating of product defects with moral defects. It lacks a deep insecurity of its own culture (quite the opposite, Americans take American culture so much for granted that many are often surprised when it doesn't exist elsewhere, and we export it without even trying) Institutionalized misogyny is largely absent; the places it holds out are generally places considered either morally suspect or low class or both (car sales, and particularly used car sales, being one such holdout.). Hugely xenophobic attitudes towards other races are held by a minority of the population, again usually not well-thought-of by the rest. Hivemind-like business practices? Uh, no. Even in the bad old days of legal cartels, there was nothing resembling a hive mind. Pedophilia dressed up in cartoon outfits? Again, no. So that leaves widespread depression among males. Judging from the drug commercials, I'd say you've got that one. One out of seven.... you must be European.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799610)

your impression of america is that of a mouth-breathing retard

hth

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798764)

Welcome to just about any culture in the world. You get the good, you get the bad. There's a balance there, because humans put it there. Ever visit Italy?

Re:The difference is quality (2, Funny)

anarche (1525323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799242)

Don't. EVER. Visit. Italy.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

mdwh2 (535323) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799360)

pedophilia dressed up cartoon outfits

I'm curious what you are referring to here? Pedophilia is about children, not cartoons - which are, you know, fictional.

It is a product of the same culture that brings you hugely xenophobic attitudes towards other races

Oh, the irony of this post.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799588)

How does this bullshit gets modded "informative" just beats me ... This is an unsubstantiated (and quite wrong) opinion. Mods, you able to read and use your heads at the same time? Apparently not.

Re:The difference is quality (2, Interesting)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798712)

The mafia has a strict code of honor, too.

It's one reason why "MAFIAA" is kind of a misnomer for the music industry.

Re:The difference is quality (2, Interesting)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798346)

All good in meatspace. But now they have to deal with the whole world that doesn't necessarily fit their mold. Best that they keep their damn paper off the net and just email a copy to their subscribers.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798374)

lol. you've watched one too many anime's my friend. Yes the japanese are more polite then american's in general, but so is every other country. if you explained the retarded nature of this to most japanese people they would think it's stupid as well.

Re:The difference is quality (2, Informative)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798386)

No, try explaining it to them without describing it as "retarded". See how many will say, "Yeah, that makes sense. Only paying users should have access."

If you explain it with a certain bias, you'll find them agreeing with you, whether they hold that opinion or not.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799366)

>>>"Yeah, that makes sense. Only paying users should have access."

You think it's only Japanese that think that way? I'm American and that phrase was running in my mind, and I bet there are some Europeans who also think along those lines. Reporters produce articles - that means they need to be paid - what better way to ensure that labor is covered then to charge for it?

I honestly don't see how reporting can continue in a world where their labor goes unpaid (i.e. papers are free online). It would be akin to if Microsoft started giving-away Windows, Office, and other products for free download. Yeah its great for us customers, but how do you pages the programmers' labor?

Answer: You charge for the end product, so you can cover labor costs.

"Yeah, that makes sense. Only paying users should have access."

Re:The difference is quality (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798408)

you've watched one too many anime's my friend. Yes the japanese are more polite then american's

And you've used two too many apostrophes, you illiterate nincompoop.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798560)

Sorry, i'd love to read and respond to your post, but i'm illiterate so i can't read it.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798448)

You forgot, "You fithy cock smoking cunts!"

Re:The difference is quality (2, Interesting)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798462)

Nikkei is by and far better then most NA papers. But saying that there's little to no petty crime isn't being true, there's plenty of it. The old centralist code is going poof, as by seen by the current generation of college and grade-schoolers. Want a heavy dose of honor-bound-things that people abide by Korea is where it's at. Everything else is turn your eye away from it, break the rules there's ways around it. Petty crime for the most part I agree, but I figure it has to do with the police not taking too kind a turn at people committing the crimes. The Japanese judicial system is very harsh on people who break the laws.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798466)

I give up posting while jet lagged too. Ugh 12hr time shifts kick you in the face...what a mess that post is.

Re:The difference is quality (-1, Flamebait)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798482)

Are you being argumentative just to be argumentative?

Here's what I said
there is so little petty crime and violence there compared to the U.S.

Then you said
But saying that there's little to no petty crime isn't being true, there's plenty of it.
Of course, I never said anything of the sort.

Then you said
Petty crime for the most part I agree, but I figure it has to do with the police not taking too kind a turn at people committing the crimes.

So you agree with me, but think what I said is false? The mental gymnastics required to hold such clearly conflicting opinions simultaneously must be difficult and take lifelong practice. Are you Japanese?

Re:The difference is quality (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798638)

It's also why people are willing to pay for music rather than download it. The penalty for disobedience and "going your own way" is social ostracization.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of me downloading gigabytes upon gigabytes of Japanese music from Japanese file sharing services.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799012)

but you have to understand that in Japan there is a strict code of honor that everyone implicitly abides by

You've been watching too much anime, otakuboy.

Re:The difference is quality (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799320)

So it makes sense in the Japanese worldview to demand a virtual face-to-face meeting in order to link to information and stories. The linker is a supplicant who must throw himself at the feet of the information "daimyo". To do any less would shame both the supplicant and the lord.

So... Do Japanese newspaper owners disembowel themselves when they're shamed? Or are they only daimyos when that happens to benefit them?

I would also like to add that, in Japanese traditions, a businessman - a member of the merchant class - calling himself a daimyo - a samurai lord - is ridiculous, and likely to end very badly for him.

Re:The difference is quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799616)

The penalty for disobedience and "going your own way" is social ostracization.

"Ostracism" is shorter and more elegant.

Not confident about security (1)

iYk6 (1425255) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798324)

It sounds like this site requires that user be logged in to view articles, and so links to the articles shouldn't hurt them anyway. But they don't think their security is up to snuff, and so links might be able to get around the paywall, and they work around this with unenforceable linking policies.

Re:Not confident about security (2, Interesting)

drolli (522659) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798394)

I work in a Japanese company. And i understand fully why they dont thrust their security. The main problem is that if the (incompetent) admins explains that something is in that way, then the boss will believe him.

Re:Not confident about security (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798834)

You really shouldn't thrust admins.. they thrust you.

Is there piratebay for that news article about... (1)

Rivalz (1431453) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798344)

Seriously while I agree collecting news and dispersing it is quite costly, the realistic value of MOST of the news out there is next to nothing.
For example a news article about a news site charging money for news. WOW that is news to me.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Can't begin to compare (5, Insightful)

angus77 (1520151) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798368)

Ummm..."the barriers have kept circulation of print editions quite high compared to the US"...? Circulation of papers in Japan has always been ridiculously higher in Japan than in the US. Some of those papers have daily circulations of eight figures---no American paper has ever achieved circulation figures like that, past or present. The local paper that I get (the Shizuoka Shinbun) has a daily circulation of over 700,000 (vs 900,000 for the New York Times), and it's not even read nationally like the Yomiuri, Mainichi, Asahi, Nikkei, etc.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798438)

Japanese are incredibly protective of their copyrights and deeply dislike giving anything away for free - they want to get paid for what they do. Also, the newspaper culture is huge here (as the parent said) and despite Japan's image of being on the cutting edge of technology, people prefer having a paper in front of them rather than having to sit in front of a computer (most homes typically have only one).

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

Superdarion (1286310) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798456)

I would assume that such circulations are due to the hight population density (10 times higher in japan, according to wikipedia).

Re:Can't begin to compare (2, Interesting)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798550)

Density doesn't necessarily drive popularity. However, Japan is unique in its group mindset, where a lot of people are happy to do things just because everyone else does.

Also, Japanese are strongly traditional and have a cultural appreciation for things like newspapers. They like to share, for one; they can clip articles; and a paper is viewed as more economical and frugal (doesn't require electricity).

Re:Can't begin to compare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798612)

and frugal (doesn't require electricity)

*facepalm*

so what you're trying to say is Japanese are fucking retarded? you might be onto something...

Re:Can't begin to compare (2, Insightful)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799130)

Your phrasing is unnecessarily inflammatory, but the answer is 'yes'. However, the answer is also 'yes' if you asked the same blanket question about all Americans, or Indians, or Australians, or whatever.

Cultural preferences and ideas become outmoded, or simply start off illogical, and don't always tally with the demonstrable facts. It happens everywhere.

Re:Can't begin to compare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799332)

High density means commuter rail and subways, thus giving them an opportunity to read, and a reason to want disposable reading material. If you drive to work that's less time you have to read anything except billboards.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

Lakitu (136170) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799628)

Also, Japanese are strongly traditional and have a cultural appreciation for things like newspapers. They like to share, for one; they can clip articles; and a paper is viewed as more economical and frugal (doesn't require electricity).

Isn't that the equivalent of linking? I don't get it.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798744)

I would assume that such circulations are due to the hight population density

I'd have thought it was to do with high population. Common sense would indicate that ceteris paribus more people would buy more papers.

However I'm at a loss as to how packing them closer together would make any difference whatsoever.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799338)

> However I'm at a loss as to how packing them closer together would make any
> difference whatsoever.

High density combined with cultural uniformity means that everyone is interested in the same stuff and so they are all more likely to read the same paper.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

linzeal (197905) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798558)

Maybe for 40+ year olds, which I suppose is most of Japan, sadly. The Japanese I know in their 20's and 30's get all their info from news readers and aggregators like we do and I would imagine the amount of the younger generations who can read/write/speak English might be part of the reason for that, considering that English News Dailies in Japan [japantimes.co.jp] are still mostly free.

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798756)

I suspect it comes down to who you hang out with as to how your views of Japan are shaped. Many of my friends are in their 20s and 30s and get their news from the paper or television. Even my computer-savvy friends hardly use RSS at all; the only aggregators they frequently use are what they can get through Yahoo! Japan and YouTube.

I've been here 8 years and taught at several high schools, and young people with no wherewithal beyond their cell phones also rely on the paper for their news (if nothing else, for the special deals on concerts and movies that are often included).

As for young people speaking English in Japan, Japan ranks as one of the lowest countries in the world, let alone Asia, in English speaking ability. This is a problem I work on daily to try to fix, and this at a school with an English-intensive course.

Trust me, most young Japanese people below college age have no idea what the Japan Times is, and less desire to try to read it unless forced to for class (which at our school they do via photocopies from the physical paper).

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799358)

Trust me, most young Japanese people below college age have no idea what the Japan Times is

Most young people below college age everywhere have no idea what newspapers are.

Re:Can't begin to compare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798904)

people prefer having a paper in front of them rather than having to sit in front of a computer (most homes typically have only one).

Unbelievable. Not reading the paper; that's believable. But, how does the entire family play World of Warcraft with just one computer? Timeshares?

Re:Can't begin to compare (1)

tapanitarvainen (1155821) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798478)

Circulation of papers in Japan has always been ridiculously higher in Japan than in the US. Some of those papers have daily circulations of eight figures---no American paper has ever achieved circulation figures like that, past or present. The local paper that I get (the Shizuoka Shinbun) has a daily circulation of over 700,000 (vs 900,000 for the New York Times), and it's not even read nationally like the Yomiuri, Mainichi, Asahi, Nikkei, etc.

Just an observation: the biggest newspaper in Finland, Helsingin Sanomat, has daily circulation of little over 400,000 copies - and the population of Finland is just over 5 million people. I suspect there aren't many newspapers with higher circulation/population ratios. (Yeah, other papers have high circulation figures here, too, always have.)

And they also have both free and paid content - but no problems against linking to the latter, rather the opposite: they hope links will bring more subscribers.

Wait just a minute (3, Interesting)

Superdarion (1286310) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798378)

There are certain forums (free as in beer in many cases) that require registration to even read. If you reach one of their pages thru a link, you are redirected to a "You have to register to see this" page.

I'm talking about free forums using a template in many cases.

So this newspaper in Japan that is being paid cannot do the same? Is their IT department full of idiotic monkeys in crack so that they can't implement a simple check to see if the user is logged in (thus paying) or not?

Re:Wait just a minute (1)

mehrotra.akash (1539473) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798490)

but you can normally still access the content using google cache on such forums without registering

Re:Wait just a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798636)

Yes, but that's the forum's "fault". After all, they let the Google bot in. If they don't want that, they could simply ... you know ... deny access to the bot.

It's just another case of cake-have-eat: they want visitors by having their content indexed, yet they don't want to show it without logging in.

Re:Wait just a minute (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799404)

And that is entirely doable. They just check for the bot signature in the User Agent, and if it claims to be one of the search engines they allow, then they check the client IP address to verify it comes from the search engine's network. Or just check IP address by itself. For everyone else, if they don't currently have a logged in status, they get a teaser page (first couple paragraphs of the article and login/register form). Very simple. But do you expect any non-technology big corporation to actually hire competent tech people?

Re:Wait just a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798648)

So this newspaper in Japan that is being paid cannot do the same?

It appears that is exactly what they are doing.

Problem is, that form of authorization is fairly easy to circumvent if you have a direct link (as mehrotra.akash mentions with Google).

If you don't go through a Google cache you would probably need to change your referral, but that's simple.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4513

Also, those forum sites that try to hide content usually let Google see it all. If you switch your useragent to a googlebot string those sites will think you are Google and show you all the goods.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

Nature of the beast (5, Insightful)

In hydraulis (1318473) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798382)

Perhaps my understanding of the World Wide Web is flawed, naïve, or both, but I don't think it works this way.

Wasn't one of the premises of the WWW to be able to hyperlink to anything you want, anything at all, and the underlying technology designed to reflect this idealogy?

If I'm wrong, please educate me.

Re:Nature of the beast (1)

kronosopher (1531873) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798414)

No you're right. It just so happens that one of the things you can reference with this advanced hyperlinking technology is a funnel [wikipedia.org] to piss your money away.

Re:Nature of the beast (1)

kronosopher (1531873) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798606)

Replying to myself. This is the same notion in establishment media prevalent in most corporate institutions. Manifesting itself through their desire to artificially manufacture economic or intellectual scarcity [wikipedia.org] , this brand of trust essentially postulates their own value irregardless of supply and demand. Furthermore, their grossly misrepresented value is perceived as actual value due to regulation [wikipedia.org] and therefore accounts for their phenomenal circulation. Do not confuse that perceived value with real redeeming quality because at the same time that same establishment is systematically perpetuating an anti-intellectual agenda by propagandizing disinformation designed to indoctrinate consumers with an insatiable parasitic worldview. The perpetuation of said agenda [wikipedia.org] reduces the masses to malleable commodities destined for dependence on institutionalized corruption. That dependence is simply a means to an end, namely compliance with the establishment and the wholesale enslavement of mankind [prisonplanet.tv] .

Re:Nature of the beast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798810)

Welcome to my quote collection, please make yourself at home. I trust you'll be enjoying your stay as you're in very good company.

Re:Nature of the beast (5, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798442)

That's like it was when the internet was ruled by the techies. Now it's ruled by the beancounters.

Free Content, we are drowning in it (2, Insightful)

linzeal (197905) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798570)

No its not, and that is scaring the shit out of the beancounters. You may not use all the free content out there but trust me there are at least 1000:1 free:paid content out there atm even if it is mostly people's blogs about their cat's sleeping habits and free Mp3s from really bad hipster bands. There are still awesome repositories of information for people like arxiv.org and wikipedia.

Re:Nature of the beast (3, Informative)

Fumus (1258966) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798534)

You are free to hyprerlink to it, but the server itself is free to ignore or block your request. Their site, their rules.

This should be a non-existent story. Site wants users to pay for viewing it - site blocks unlogged users from viewing content. Why would anyone want to prevent linking to the site if it's behind a paywall already? Even crappy porn sites are confident enough in their protection system that they allow anyone to link to any part of the site. They just redirect you to the "Please pay" page and are happy you came over from a random link.

Re:Nature of the beast (3, Insightful)

Spad (470073) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798734)

The story isn't that they have a paywall, it's that they're demanding formal requests to be made in order for anyone to *link* to their content just in case someone finds a way around their paywall.

It's like me demanding that people submit formal requests to me if they want to tell anyone my address, just in case someone finds a way to break into my house; it's not exactly the world's greatest anti-theft protection.

Re:Nature of the beast (1)

Fumus (1258966) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798748)

And as I said: even crappy porn sites are confident enough in their protection scheme to allow links. If they really believe someone can bypass their paywall then they need to hire some new IT staff.

Or what ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798388)

Are they gonna hirikiri themselves if I do? Maybe bomb my pool all the while screaming Tora! Tora! Tora! Well, guess what I got? That's right, a NUKE, and it's got "Fox News" all over it.

Re:Or what ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798660)

That's right, a NUKE, and it's got "Fox News" all over it.

Ah, a veritable dirty bomb. It will contaminate the affected area with Fox news articles and retard many generations to come.

most scientific jounals... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798396)

...everywhere demand payment before linking to researched material that would have otherwise been published in a pay journal.

Even researching from one college library to another requires payment. We all shouldn't have to pay too much to get to research a subject. But then also a workmen is worth his, hers, or shis hire.

Re:most scientific jounals... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798686)

Even researching from one college library to another requires payment.

Really? Wow that is sad. Around here (south west Germany) university libraries cooperate. Their inventories are linked in a central database which everybody can access from education networks. Lending is free and some of the bigger libraries even allow you to have them shipped to your local library for easier access, for free. Socialism for the win :D

Absurdity (2, Interesting)

izomiac (815208) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798426)

So, if the address of their website cannot be published without a fee, the what of their physical address and phone number? Do students and scholars also need to pay to cite them in a paper?

Stuff like this makes me wish the Referrer and User-agent HTTP headers were disabled by default. It seems like they have zero benefit for users, and are merely used as stupidly weak forms of access control.

Re:Absurdity (1)

Superdarion (1286310) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798446)

The article quotes que newspaper:

Generally, links from one's own website to the front page of our website are acceptable

This suggests that you can still link to their front page, so you can't compare it to their physical address or phone number.

Of course, the "Generally" suggests they might forbid it in certain cases, but I don't see that happening since links to their front page are nothing but free publicity.

Re:Absurdity (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799356)

> This suggests that you can still link to their front page...

Yes, but it appears that they still want you to ask for permission before doing so.

Yeah good luck with that... (2, Insightful)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798450)

I'll just keep reading other english/japanese dailies like MDN [mainichi.jp] which have better content. Or any of the local papers which you can google out, not to mention actual commentary about what's going on. I think the last time I read Nikkei related was in 2001.

I wish papers would get it together (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798528)

I'm sick of hearing newspapers complain about the lack of profit from online distribution without having a decent system in place to allow for access to online content. People don't want to take out entire subscriptions to a paper to access an article online. Speaking for myself, I just want to be able to buy the issue at a fair price which should exclude costs associated with physical distribution such as printing and delivery. I also want to be able to download that issue to access online or refer back to in future, just as I would a physical issue. I don't know of any paper that allows a simple one off payment to purchase an entire issue. This is what people have always wanted with physical distribution, why would online distribution be any different?

Re:I wish papers would get it together (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798536)

Before anyone can help you, you're going to have to define what you mean by "an entire issue".

Re:I wish papers would get it together (1)

frdmfghtr (603968) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798678)

Such a thing may exist...check out the Kindle, nook, or iPad. I know that you can buy individual magazines from the iTunes store, and subscriptions aren't far behind. Now, the individual price is a bit of an issue at the moment, but it's a new market and will eventually settle out. DRM and lock-in may also be an issue for some (some on technical grounds, some moral...whatever) but there are sone options

Re:I wish papers would get it together (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31799376)

Nook has like 8 newspapers. It's a neat little toy and I wish I could recommend it over the Kindle, but the only thing it has going for it is that the dual screen thing could have resulted in a more responsive UI, if it'd been separated from the ePaper more and allow a "search window" of the page to be scrolled in the touch screen. Maybe a few more firmware updates...

Ok, also that ePub is basically a web site rolled into a zip file, so you can roll your own if you want to, but who is going to do that?

What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798530)

How do they suppose to enforce this "policy"?

Di34 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798682)

are about 7000/5 [goat.cx]

hi (1)

aieedaain (1784044) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798780)

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's how it is over there. Over here, we're free to say stuff like "FIX YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE, YOU IDIOTS! IT'S BEEN BROKEN FOR HOURS!" Massage [squidoo.com]

This holds promise for real world security (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31798808)

How's this for an idea - I'll declare that people can only come into my house to take stuff if they formally apply for permission in advance. What's more, I will require that anyone who comes into my house to take my stuff conspicuously display their name and address and the formal permission they require in order to take my stuff.

Then, I can relax, knowing that if anyone comes into my house, and tries to take my stuff, either I will have given them permission beforehand, or I will be able to read the name and address on their stripy burglar outfit and give those details to the police, who will be able to go to their house and get my stuff back!

What a splendid and foolproof idea Nikkei have invented.

[posting as AC because login is failing with a "Guru Meditation Error" right now...]

I tell ya, (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798824)

There are *secret passages* in them thar intertubes [wikipedia.org] .

Not about technology. (5, Informative)

v(*_*)vvvv (233078) | more than 4 years ago | (#31798992)

Nikkei has had many many failed internet ventures, and this is just another one of their bad ideas that passed through their over-aged internet-illiterate bureaucracy.

I suspect this is more about politics within the market and about them preparing to strong arm those they think can be strong armed... It isn't like they're going to put up a notice, and sue all the referrers.

In the old days, a ton of Japanese web sites would have "link free" or "links not permitted" notices on their sites. For some reason, many felt the web was linked with permission, and that they had a say. As if anyone could do anything about outside links, when I would tell them the internet was all about free linking, and that you wouldn't put pages up that you didn't want linked in the first place, people would seem to get the idea...

This Nikkei thing is not about individuals linking to news articles. There site is practically unlinkable because they keep deleting stuff anyway.

Secret passages? (1)

AC-x (735297) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799054)

"Secret passages" to content that should be safely behind the paywall? What are they on about? You can't magically link to a full article that's behind a login / subscription unless their site security code is very broken.

If there we doing this right then for non-logged in users they would show a brief intro to the article and a link to the login / subscribe forms.

Re:Secret passages? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799184)

their site security code is very broken.

Bingo. Or as the summary put it: "management appears worried that links could provide secret passages to content that should be safely behind the paywall".

Re:Secret passages? (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799430)

Better yet, put the login form right under the article teaser. Oh wait, they don't hire real techies at big corporate newspapers. Never mind.

Comments on Arc (1)

krischik (781389) | more than 4 years ago | (#31799660)

I suggest to read the comments on Ars Technica - and even better follow all the link the said Newspaper:

http://www.nikkeieu.com/index_e.asp [nikkeieu.com]

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20100409D09EE596.htm [nikkei.com]

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20100409D09EE593.htm [nikkei.com]

http://www.nikkei.com//news/headline/related-article/g=96958A9C9381959FE2EAE2E7E28DE2EAE2E6E0E2E3E2E2E2E2E2E2E2;bm=96958A9C9381959FE2EBE2E6938DE2EBE2E6E0E2E3E29494E0E2E2E2 [nikkei.com]

For me this sounds like a sure way to get lots of those "illegal" inbound links very fast.

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