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Adobe Evangelist Lashes Out Over Apple's "Original Language" Policy

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the flash-of-anger dept.

Iphone 789

An anonymous reader writes "Apple's recent decision to restrict the languages that may be used for iPhone and iPad development has provoked some invective from Adobe's platform evangelist Lee Brimelow. He writes on TheFlashBlog, 'This has nothing to do whatsoever with bringing the Flash player to Apple's devices. That is a separate discussion entirely. What they are saying is that they won't allow applications onto their marketplace solely because of what language was originally used to create them. This is a frightening move that has no rational defense other than wanting tyrannical control over developers and more importantly, wanting to use developers as pawns in their crusade against Adobe. This does not just affect Adobe but also other technologies like Unity3D.' He ends his post with, 'Speaking purely for myself, I would look to make it clear what is going through my mind at the moment. Go screw yourself Apple. Comments disabled as I'm not interested in hearing from the Cupertino Comment SPAM bots.'"

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Do niggers use apple? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31801964)

Im curious

Re:Do niggers use apple? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31801982)

Sure, but first they knock them out of the tree before climbing down to eat them.

Re:Do niggers use apple? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802132)

only the ones from outer space.

1984? (4, Interesting)

Crock23A (1124275) | more than 4 years ago | (#31801966)

Yeah, I read the book and I saw the commercial. Ironic.

Duality of Wozniak's Apple Versus Jobs' Apple (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802062)

Yeah, I read the book and I saw the commercial. Ironic.

This week, Slashdot featured a really good article form Slate [slashdot.org] that ended with this quote [slate.com] :

Steve Wozniak has said that he pre-ordered three iPads, two for himself and one for a friend. This is a testament to his incredible good nature and his loyalty both to the firm that marginalized him in the 1980s and to a friend, Jobs, who refused to write a foreword for his memoirs. Yet somewhere, deep inside, Wozniak must realize what the release of the iPad signifies: The company he once built now, officially, no longer exists.

That last sentence is really the core problem here. We were used to Steve Wozniak's Apple and we were in love with that Apple. Now the only Apple left is Steve Job's Apple. Times have changed but before we cast acerbic words [paulgraham.com] at Jobs you must acknowledge he has led the company in a very profitable direction. Could he have done that while adhering to Wozniak's "open" idealism [paulgraham.com] ? That's the real debate here.

Re:Duality of Wozniak's Apple Versus Jobs' Apple (5, Insightful)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802076)

No, the geeks at /. are in love with Woz's Apple, everyone else is in love with Steve's Apple.

Re:Duality of Wozniak's Apple Versus Jobs' Apple (2, Funny)

MrShaggy (683273) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802142)

Would that Mean that Gates is the Snake in apple tree?

Re:Duality of Wozniak's Apple Versus Jobs' Apple (5, Funny)

neokushan (932374) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802326)

"the geeks at /."

As opposed to who else at /.?

Re:Duality of Wozniak's Apple Versus Jobs' Apple (5, Insightful)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802468)

Steve Wozniak's Apple ceased to be, long before Apple forced out Steve Jobs. His was the Apple of the Apple II. The Apple your ilk fantasize about, so far as I can tell, never really existed, as the Apple of Spindler, et al., certainly wasn't anything like either the Apple of Wozniak, nor of Jobs. Frankly, none of the Apple between the Apple II, and the advent of Mac OS X was really all that interesting. There are parts to love, and parts to hate, but Apple is certainly interesting, in the modern, "return of Jobs" era.

Re:1984? (4, Funny)

nnnnnnn (1611817) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802072)

IBM: No, I am your father.
Apple: NO, No, that's not true, that's impossible.
IBM: Search your feelings, you know it be true.
Apple: NOOOO, NOOOOO
IBM: Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.
Apple: Yes father.

Unity3D not threatened. (5, Interesting)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802208)

Is the Unity3D [unity3d.com] Game Engine threatened? I doubt it. Adobe, yes. Unity, no. I think this Adobe guy is reading between the lines of Apple's announcement. He knows Flash (its code generator workaround, not Flash itself) will be targeted, but not Unity3D. He's only trying to get Apple to admit its hidden agenda, or goad them into banning Unity3D to maintain consistency (which would only go against Apple's interests, Unity3D already has many top selling titles, the code generator from Adobe is not even close).

Re:Unity3D not threatened. (2, Informative)

the_humeister (922869) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802352)

Except you might be in trouble if you use C# or Boo for your game script since the scripting is build on Mono!

Re:Unity3D not threatened. (1, Insightful)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802442)

For decades apple users have had to "enjoy" ported games. Games written either for come arcane quirks of antoher platform then ports half assed to apple or games written in some generic way. They don't support accelerations or available stuff. The linux folks know the feeling too of some round direct-X game shoved into a X11 hole.

Apple is saying now that we have a platform advantage it's going to be windows that gets the hand-me-down games. Games targeted to agnostic APIs are banned too cause it just means people are writting for the lowest common denominator.

THis is actually not entirely new behaviour. Apple always aims for highly spec-ed platfomrs-- never a stripped low end one-- and thus developers have always been able to assume a feature rich platform. for example, in the long ago bad old days apple's always had full stereo sound out when PCs had all sorts of different levels of sound outputs -- usually just a beep speaker. One an cite many such examples.

thus apple wants developers to target it's full capabilities not use generics.

it's their choice.

Nice work. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31801976)

Nice work disabling comments. Let the Cupertino Comment SPAM Bots attack!!!

Re:Nice work. (0, Troll)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802096)

Nice work disabling comments. Let the Cupertino Comment SPAM Bots attack!!!

Oh, please. The Apple fanbois are legion, and never have anything good to say if you disparage their turtleneck-wearing leader or his elite products. Disabling comments is likely to leave the signal-to-noise ratio at exactly the same level it is without comments (zero divided by anything is still zero.)

Re:Nice work. (1)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802126)

crap, I meant "SNR(with Apple fanboi comments) == SNR(without comments)"

Re:Nice work. (0)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802356)

In this case even the fans would have to stretch to defend the new policy. It's a fairly obvious dick move by Apple in the same spirit as the "Go screw yourself Apple" quote in the summary. This is a "Go screw yourself Adobe", and other frameworks are most likely collateral damage.

Surprised? I'm not.. (3, Interesting)

briggsl (1475399) | more than 4 years ago | (#31801980)

I don't understand why people are surprised that Apple have taken these measures. Time and again they have gone out of their way to make sure they have a vice like grip over aspects of their products.

Even iAds, which was claimed to be an attempt to revolutionize Advert distribution is simply a way for Apple to monopolize and control the money flow through their products.

Fact is, until people start protesting with their money nothing will change. The only way Apple will stop strong arming Adobe is for them to suddenly pull Photoshop from Mac OS. Fight fire with fire.

Shame it'll never happen. I look forward to seeing the ways Apple will surprise us all with their evil policies in the future.

Re:Surprised? I'm not.. (5, Interesting)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802238)

The only way Apple will stop strong arming Adobe is for them to suddenly pull Photoshop from Mac OS.

You don't think there's already a move by Adobe away from MacOS? Interesting. You clearly don't use Adobe's Creative Suite in your day job.

Many of us who do have noticed a distinct shift in their design philosophy away from making a Mac program for graphic designers towards making a PC program for graphic designers which happens to run on the Mac. The examples are small yet numerous and it paints a clear picture, to anyone who actually thinks about it for a second, that Adobe was the first to turn their backs on the Mac community. I believe there's been a cold war brewing behind closed doors for years now and, while Apple may have been the most obvious about bringing it into the light, Adobe was the first to act on it with their shift in design philosophy with CS3.

I await the day that Apple..... (2, Funny)

ip_freely_2000 (577249) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802002)

....only allows you to speak English when using an Iphone.

Re:I await the day that Apple..... (1, Flamebait)

peragrin (659227) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802216)

While you may or may not be joking apple has a very good reason for this random command?

It is obvious. Apple is the ONLY OS company that can move it's ENTIRE product line to new hardware in the span of a couple of years. During the PPC to Intel transition all applications coded with xcode ported over with relative quickness. It took adobe what 4 years to do what apple did with their OS and software in 3?

Apple has a history of changing processors. the next version of the ipad may not use ARM but something else that can do more processing with less power draw. Applications coded Apples strict way will transition between the platforms with relative ease. Applications code with Adobe's help will take 4-5 years before there is an update.

How long do you think it would take MSFT to more to a different chipset? heck MSFT has a hard time supporting 64bit hardware from 2003.

While apple is getting really strict(and it is getting worse) the fact is Adobe treats apple as a second class citizen. 10 million ipads out there will start to crimp adobe more than 10 million developers working on gnash.

Who didn't see this coming? (5, Insightful)

the_humeister (922869) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802010)

It's Apple. For at least 10 years people have been saying that if Apple had MS's market share that things would actually be worse than they are now. Well, now we get a small hint of things to come. OTOH, perhaps Apple is so large now their left hand doesn't know what their right hand is doing.

Re:Who didn't see this coming? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802176)

Apple fanbois?

Re:Who didn't see this coming? (0)

hitmark (640295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802184)

and hopefully the government will do a bette4r job at slapping apple then they did with microsoft.

Re:Who didn't see this coming? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802234)

Except it's easy to choose not to buy apple. They only have a monopoly on their own products, and you just don't buy them.
The only time I don't have a choice is when stupid company X builds product Y that will only talk to windows, That is what pirated XP and virtual machines are for.

Remind me why Apple has it's own section on slashdot again?

Re:Who didn't see this coming? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802388)

Apple's left hand is up Steve Jobs ass, along with his head, Apple's right hand is assisting with the blowjob the employees are giving him.

But it's Apple! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802014)

Apple is the hammer throwing lady from the 1984 video, right? Not the all controlling big brother, right?

Re:But it's Apple! (1)

zebs (105927) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802202)

Always thought big brother looked a little Steve Jobsish

Revenge (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802016)

Adobe can retaliate and abandon Mac platform. Designers and developers who need Adobe's products will move to Windows.

Re:Revenge (2, Interesting)

plover (150551) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802066)

Adobe can retaliate and abandon Mac platform. Designers and developers who need Adobe's products will move to Windows.

Except with the imminent death of Flash due to the ubiquitous adoption of the iP[hone|ad|od Touch], Photoshop is the major product Adobe is making money with, and that's primarily on Macs. Could they afford to abandon the platform is the real question.

But yeah, this is an elegant solution. If Photoshop were Windows only, a lot of graphic designers would end up abandoning Macs in the long run.

Re:Revenge (3, Insightful)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802226)

In the real world, Safari (including on Mac OS X) only has around 5% market share. That's not ubiquitous at all. I think 'irrelevant' is the word you're looking for.

Re:Revenge (2, Interesting)

owlnation (858981) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802282)

Photoshop is the major product Adobe is making money with, and that's primarily on Macs. Could they afford to abandon the platform is the real question.

I'd guess they think the answer to that is "yes". I think they are very wrong about that, but it seems they don't value Apple custom. If they did, they wouldn't have delayed the intel versions of CS3 for a year. That definitely cost Apple in people upgrading to intel machines.

I dare say that's at least part of the reason why they are keen to kill flash. That, and the fact that Apple's ideology is all about user experience -- and Adobe's is very, very far from that.

Re:Revenge (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802306)

Photoshop is primarily a Windows program. It looks like ass on Macs....

It's actually pretty surprising, given that Macs are managing to maintain market share despite not really having a the good version of Photoshop.

Re:Revenge (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802314)

true, but over simplified... There is a lot more to the mac crowd than graphics designers.. and audio.. and video production.. But even only including those specific segments and lumping them together into "creatives" There is a lot of competition in the market. Adobe rules image manipulation well enough. They are starting to make a dent in page layout with InDesign, but QuarkXpress still rules that roost. Final Cut Pro is quickly becoming almost the defacto standard in small to medium video production. Adobe Audition? Minor contender at best... Anyone heard of ProTools? Even those examples fail to really show the breadth of the market in these creative fields.

Adobe would die a painful death if they abandoned the platform, not the other way around. Flash is just that.. a flash in the pan for Adobe. It does some things very well. It does others horribly. Unfortunately, its' biggest customers are utilizing its worst features. Fix it, or move on and quit bitching.

And for what it is worth... I don't think Apple has some vendetta against Adobe. They just have a vendetta against flash. Again, fix it and convince the people at Apple that you have indeed fixed it, or shut up about it already and move on.

Re:Revenge (1)

WiseWeasel (92224) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802374)

That may be, but a good number would stay behind using old versions of Adobe CS and dumping money into emerging competitors to Adobe. Not to mention that most of Apple's customers wouldn't be affected in the slightest. The harm to Apple would be minimal, but the harm to Adobe if competitors gain a foothold could be disastrous.

Re:Revenge (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802402)

Its really this.

Photoshop is at such an advanced state, that nobody would have a realistic alternative for many many years.
The recent preview of some of the latest features in mind blowing. NOBODY is doing that stuff. Photoshop is not only are doing it, but its doing it very well and with user friendliness first.

Remember also that Adobe is also king of desktop publishing. InDesign (formerly PageMaker) has a strong following as well. The users of these products are not beholden to Apple: They are beholden to Adobe.

Even GIMP, with all the effort thats gone into it, does not replace photoshop. If adobe abandoned OS/X, I would have to say that nearly 100% of the existing Mac market for Photoshop would run to Windows 7/8 over the next 5 years.

Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad (3, Informative)

theodp (442580) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802024)

Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad [whydoeseve...ngsuck.com] : "If you need to "originally" write your code in Swahili, while listening to Milli Vanilli, while reclining in a patch of mud, and then you need fifty oompa loompas to translate the Swahili into C, that is none of Steve Jobs fucking business. And the idea, which I am sure is actually the plan, that he will inspect application code to figure out what the "original" language is that the code was written in is just plain pathological."

Re:Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802140)

well, what they should have done is released all the libraries used to create iPhone apps in a specialised VM of their own, and ensures people had to code in the corresponding language only.

Like MS demanding Win7 apps be written in a managed language (ie C#) or Android in Dalvik/Java. iPhone demands C/C++/ObjC. What's the big deal here?

Re:Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad (2, Interesting)

91degrees (207121) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802198)

Android has a devkit in C++, and Google are quite happy for you to develop in INTERCAL if it pleases you to do so. MS want managed languages but that's a fairly general technical requirement. They're not mandating a specific whitelist of languages, just mandating that it must have specific features.

Re:Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802240)

As far as Microsoft goes... I don't get where where you get the the idea that they "demand" anything. I don't recall having to even ask their permission to write Windows applications more or less ask them for permission to write the application in any of my choosing. Or install them. Or run them. Or distribute them.

Re:Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802230)

Hey, you can still put the comments in Swahili, but last I looked C had a small set of keywords that just happened to be the same as English words. We'll gloss over the use of punctuation marks as they don't fit into this argument :)

Pirates win again (-1, Offtopic)

nicolas.kassis (875270) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802028)

Once again the pirates get better stuff then the legal users. Oh wait, MT this isn't about the *AA.

A sucker is born every minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802032)

Just look at the number of people who've bought into Apple's bullshit. Be creative and think for yourself, as long as Steve Jobs approves it first.

Good luck in your new career Lee (4, Interesting)

symbolset (646467) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802056)

What's more interesting to me is that Adobe is now under fire both from Microsoft, who has been trying to supplant all of their software with their own stack, and now Apple. It seems like the only friends Adobe has these days are Linux and Android.

So, hey, Adobe: have you started porting Photoshop yet?

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802082)

Photoshop for android? that would be one killer app!

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802200)

Yep. It'd kill the poor thing right away.

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (1)

Kickasso (210195) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802452)

Lough all you want, but Adobe DOES make a version of Photoshop for Android. I have it on my phone. It's even free! The functionality is rather limited though.

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (4, Insightful)

vil3nr0b (930195) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802098)

"So, hey, Adobe: have you started porting Photoshop yet?" --or creating a fucking viable version of 64bit flashplayer for even the most basic Linux OS? One not buggy as fuck IMHO?

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802102)

Linux isn't good for them either. The joo-joo (remember that?) linux flash player is shit and can't deal with full screen video. Adobe has distanced themselves and recommend vaporware tablets running windows 7.

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (1)

TeXMaster (593524) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802294)

Linux isn't good for them either. The joo-joo (remember that?) linux flash player is shit and can't deal with full screen video

Please stop spreading this bullshit. I've been able to play HD content in Flash fullscreen on my Linux machine (x86_64, Debian unstable) for at least the past year, using the 'lab' version of the 64bit Flash plugin

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802360)

What are the specs of your machine vs. the specs of the (badly named) JooJoo tablet?

Re:Good luck in your new career Lee (1)

toriver (11308) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802138)

Photoshop for the iPhone is already on the App Store. Dunno if they will do an iPad version after the iPhone OS 4 changes...

as long as it kills flash... (1, Insightful)

qwerty2k (1105569) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802064)

anything that speeds up the decline of flash in general is fine by my books.

Re:as long as it kills flash... (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802378)

This kills framework other than Flash, although I think they're most likely collateral damage.

Come on, you would do the same.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802070)

..if you were Steve Jobs. Who else can kick Adobe where it hurts, have a laugh and get the blessings of millions of fans for that at the same time?

Adobe v Apple (1)

mykej (33237) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802078)

This should be a good fight. Who do you cheer for? Injuries!

Learning from the past (5, Insightful)

BearRanger (945122) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802092)

Apple hasn't forgotten the lesson they learned from IBM and others. Allowing developers to use proprietary tools like Adobe's Flash suite makes them dependent on Adobe's development cycle and not their own. Apple claims to have just released 1500 new API's for iPhone OS. How long will it take for Adobe to support them with their development tools? About as long is it takes to get a version of Flash for OSX that doesn't use 99% of the CPU? Or as long as it takes IBM to release a 3 GHz G5?

Not all issues surrounding control are negative. Sometimes it's just about controlling your own destiny and place in the market.

Re:Learning from the past (1)

hitmark (640295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802220)

really sad that today's stock market rush towards quick profits makes companies and CEOs unable to contemplate the long view and let things take some time to happen.

Re:Learning from the past (4, Interesting)

Threni (635302) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802246)

> Not all issues surrounding control are negative. Sometimes it's just about controlling your own destiny and place in the market.

But the reports I've read suggest that Android is going to own the iPhone, because loads of manufacturers are either releasing or planning to release phones, laptops and other devices using Android, as opposed to the small number Apple is going to be able to support. Also, developers are pissed off with the control. Sure, they'll put up with it whilst dreaming of making some stupid app which'll make their fortune, but that was 2008/9 and now they've experienced the however many month delay while Apple figure out whether your app is going to bypass their control (wifi, emulation, whatever this weeks dumb rule is) before sticking it on their website they're much more likely to take a good look at the totally open java/c++/linux combo of Android and have a play with it.

Re:Learning from the past (3, Insightful)

rehabdoll (221029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802284)

So you're saying Apple are actually saving us from vendor lock-in by controlling us? How generous of them.

Re:Learning from the past (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802322)

Apple claims to have just released 1500 new API's for iPhone OS. How long will it take for Adobe to support them with their development tools?

That's the whole point. Adobe can't. A lot of the APIs are pretty low-level. The best any Flash-based, or any other cross-platform development environment can even hope for is to support only the lowest common denominator across all of the target platforms. You think the App Store is full of crap now? Imagine all the Flash-based crap that would flood it if this were to go forward.

Re:Learning from the past (0, Troll)

uprise78 (1256084) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802412)

Man is it nice to see someone *finally* think this through before just bashing Apple's "not open" platform. The iPhone API's move fast. Each iteration adds a ton of stuff. There is just no way any third party tool could keep up. Worse than that would be people getting locked into the CS5 platform creating iPhone, Android and WinPhone7 apps all from the same codebase. It would be a huge loss to end users because they would get apps that don't use any of the features specific to each platform that set them apart. People have to get over this crap. If you want to make an iPhone use Obj-C, C or C++. If you don't want to/can't learn them there are a TON of other platforms that could use great apps written with your tool of choice. Newsflash: the iPhone isn't the only mobile platform. If you don't like it you have choices. Let your dollars do the talking.

Re:Learning from the past (1)

spyfrog (552673) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802478)

Who cares if the iPhones API "moves fast"?
99% of the applications out there doesn't need these new features. They only need the basic functionality that they could get from the Flash export. And in what way is it BAD to be able to make crossplatform software? If people wants to develop using a certain crossplatform solution, I don't understand why you and Apple should ban them?
Is it because your "app" wouldn't be as "special" if it is also available for Win7 mobile and Android users?

Isn't this business-101 ? (2, Insightful)

Space cowboy (13680) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802094)

This seems pretty straightforward:
  • Apple have invested a huge amount of effort in getting UIKit up and running. They think they've got the best interface out there for touch.
  • If Adobe (or whomever) want to produce cross-platform build tools (ie: write for one platform, target another), they can only target the lowest common denominator of all those platforms or provide spotty coverage.
  • Even if they do provide coverage for everything in Cocoa-Touch, when will support arrive ?
  • So, why would Apple want to give up control over the API of the devices they've made, while simultaneously throwing away any competitive advantage they might be able to bring in the native toolkit ?

Seriously, what was Adobe thinking ? A good business relationship is when everyone gains from whatever is being proposed. Apple don't gain. Why are Adobe surprised Apple aren't happy ? This isn't *quite* as bad as Palm lying about their USB id's in order to piggy-back on Apple's success, but it's pretty darn close.

I can see the case for this being good for Adobe. I can't see the case for this being good for Apple; given that Apple are way out ahead in terms of mindshare at the moment, I don't think this is a bad thing for the users - developers are flocking to the platform.

If Adobe want to play, they need to bring something that excites the user-base, and that Apple can't refute. So far they've *not* done that, and childish rants aren't going to persuade me that they can, in fact, do that. I do love the "comments are disabled because someone might disagree with me" as well [grin] - that just smacks of someone firmly convinced they're in the right...

Simon

Apple learns from late 80's video game crash (2, Insightful)

Naatach (574111) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802106)

Apple locked down the iPhone app market to avoid the same late 80's video game crash, according to this page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1250946 [ycombinator.com] Let state that I am not an iPhone fanboi. I use the corporate iPhone for email and calendar, which it does well. It does infuriate me that I cannot make it do simple tasks like change notification volume that my POS Windows Mobile phone could. I would jailbreak it, but my boss told me "the IT department would probably junk punch him" if I did.

Re:Apple learns from late 80's video game crash (2, Insightful)

twidarkling (1537077) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802350)

my boss told me "the IT department would probably junk punch him" if I did.

I suppose you must like your boss then, because for most people, that'd just be further incentive to jailbreak it.

Re:Apple learns from late 80's video game crash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802470)

it do simple tasks like change notification volume

Jesus wept, what?

Apple: it just werks.

Adobe too slow (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802124)

Adobe has been too slow at fixing and improving its sw, which just makes it more expensive for Apple to support and makes the user experience far worse.

Apple's Developer Relations (0)

derinax (93566) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802128)

Does it exist? Between the App Store, the iPad, platform and channel lockdowns, and the trend toward punishing developers, pro users, and creatives, Apple is showing an unbelievable amount of hubris lately.

They are burning their bridges and salting the earth behind them. They may be in a mass-consumer ("the lowest common denominator") ascendancy right now, but they won't be able to stay there with this attitude.

Re:Apple's Developer Relations (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802252)

Yeah, their "developer relations" are the shit they deposited on your face, and the money you wasted developing an app that they ended up rejecting. Oh, it's so wonderful to develop for Apple's platforms.

Hmm. I wonder... (5, Insightful)

peacefinder (469349) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802160)

Do you suppose Steve Jobs might still be upset about the long delays in Adobe's release of OSX/Intel native products?

Nah.

Re:Hmm. I wonder... (1)

WilliamBaughman (1312511) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802426)

There's also the Carbon/Cocoa issue from that same time period.

Missing Reason (5, Interesting)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802174)

Actually, I read about this the other day. Rumor has it, the language requirements actually do have a purpose, that is making sure the apps work with the new profiled multitasking setups. Supposedly cross compiled apps don't behave in the same way and individual threads can't be halted to save battery and processing power the same way that native apps can.

Whether or not that is true is a bit above my head. The claim has been made that all of Apple's fancy tricks with threat pausing, fail completely with cross-compiled apps and as a result those apps perform very badly with regard to battery drain. This is somewhat supported by the fact that Apple has applied this only to the version of iPhone OS that includes multitasking and not to older versions including current development for 3.x.

Others have also faulted Gruber for misquoting them in his rant by claiming Unity3D will no longer be allowed, despite the fact that the person he was quoting said maybe it will or maybe it won't as it is actually a pre-compiler and it does create objective C source files. The rant should be taken with a grain of salt as it is from a fairly biased Adobe employee.

Re:Missing Reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802270)

Actually, I read about this the other day. Rumor has it, the language requirements actually do have a purpose, that is making sure the apps work with the new profiled multitasking setups. Supposedly cross compiled apps don't behave in the same way and individual threads can't be halted to save battery and processing power the same way that native apps can.

Supposedly this, supposedly that, cross-compiled apps only use the public API-s and features provided to the native development kit. It doesn't make a difference in multitasking, except none of the third party apps have support for the multitasking services (like bg audio).

When you run a Flash app on iPhone OS4 and switch away, it's suspended in exactly the same fashion that native apps are by default, so that's not the reason at all. AT ALL.

What Apple doesn't want is slow, low-quality, poorly written applications to flood their appstore. I'm a Flash developer and I've seen plenty of Adobe AIR apps, which is the same as the iPhone packager, except for the desktop. A properly coded AIR app that has a good UI and doesn't suck CPU for no reason at all? Maybe 1 in 1000.

Anything but Flash (4, Interesting)

introspekt.i (1233118) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802178)

If it was anything other than Flash, and anyone other than Apple I'm sure more people would be outraged. To me this is more of Apple's and its control MO vs. the last decade's "rich internet architecture". Apple's doing what it always does, control its platform. I'm not sure why anybody's so surprised. I've been burned by the lock-in, lock-out myself (DISCLAIMER: I do own an Apple computer), but, I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over the marginalization of the Flash platform on the iPhone OS. I think most died-in-the-wool Apple users feel this way (ho hum/ meh), and Apple is willing to take advantage of this sentiment to further shape their own platform the way they want it. Right? Wrong? I don't think this is really a question of ethics or morals. I think it's Apple having their own way, and people with dollars not caring enough to get mad and go elsewhere.

Re:Anything but Flash (1)

dbc (135354) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802422)

So I have this theory that Apple only did it this way to avoid have to single out Adobe by saying: "no fsck'ing Flash". They just banned everything in order to be even-handed and avoid making the Flashocracy even more upset. Personally, I think Flash needs to die, die quickly, and die completely. So let Flash die, and then El Steevo can lighten up on the development tool controls again.

Re:Anything but Flash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802444)

If it was anything other than Flash, and anyone other than Apple I'm sure more people would be outraged.

You know, you remind me of a SouthPark quote, episode "A ladder to heaven":

Reporter: "Do you actually believe in the ladder to heaven?"
Man: "If heaven is an eight year old boy, and the ladder is my penis and the pearly gates are the..."

But sure, if the yellow was blue, and the big was small, and the water was hard, definitely more people would root for Adobe.

Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (1)

twitterfire (1787276) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802182)

Hey Adobe, just abandon the Mac platform. You can hurt'em more than they can hurt you!

Re:Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (4, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802280)

Maybe because they know that Apple would produce a decent alternative to Photoshop for a fraction of the price?

Apple massively undercut Steinberg's Cubase when they released Logic Studio. No lame dongle protection either!

Re:Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (1)

Sollord (888521) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802332)

Adobe probably has way to many patents for apple to make viable true photoshop clone

Re:Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (1)

spyfrog (552673) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802344)

If it is so easy to compete with Photoshop, why isn't anyone doing it and doing it good?
The only real competitor I can think of now is Corel and they are not doing great at all. Why would Apple succeed where several other have failed?

Re:Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802440)

Adobe's price has little to do with the cost of development and more to do with (a) it's a defacto industry standard and because of (b) there is no comparable competitor that has feature parity with Creative Suite. In other words, if you have a commanding, if not monopoly, position in the market, you can charge pretty much whatever you want.

Re:Why doesn't Adobe leave Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802348)

In any space that is dependent on the Creative Suite of products (e.g., publishing, graphic arts, etc.), Apple needs Adobe more than Adobe needs Apple. Adobe should just stop releasing versions of CS and the rest of their software for OS X. Those who make a living off CS will simply change hardware during their next upgrade cycle. To add insult to injury, a Linux port would be awesome especially if it arrives in time for Chrome OS.

Speaking as an iPhone user ...who cares? (4, Interesting)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802188)

You know, everyone keeps complaining about all this "control" apple has on the iphone. And now, to read how they are worse than Microsoft.

First, Flash sucks for me as a user so I am thrilled it's going to die. Sorry if a few developers love it, but that's not my problem nor do I care if they have to learn new things. Thank you Apple.

Second, as an iPhone user there is nothing I miss on a daily basis being able to do with the iPhone. Do I wish that there was more flexibility with some apps? Yes. Do I think it's this huge deal, no. Fact is the control Apple is doing has benefits and negatives. For most people the benefits of a closed community, screened apps that haven't had viruses or malware, and a wonderful intuitive GUI (IMHO, Android is getting closer but is still not consistent nor as intuitive as iphone or Palm WebOs) and easy upgrades that actually are released to the phones (as opposed to the fragmentation that's Android) is worthwhile. Fact is Android Droid are STILL waiting for Verizon to let them get 2.1 of Android. How's that for control? If you want control, get yourself an out of contract pay as you go GSM type phone (like the Nokia or somethiing). But for the rest of us people who just need a smartphone and not a portable computer, the iphone is a great device.

Re:Speaking as an iPhone user ...who cares? (1)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802380)

THANK-YOU...

I now surf with Firefox which does not download flash files by default. Ever since that my CPU has not gone to 90% to show some ad flipping oranges and bananas and asking which I would prefer...

I am not against ads. I am against ads that suck all of the horsepower out of my computer.

What a choice: Which lock-in do you want? (2, Insightful)

smcdow (114828) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802190)

Apple is lock-in. Adobe is lock-in. You have a choice of how you'll be locked in. What's the point of developing software?

Re:What a choice: Which lock-in do you want? (1)

introspekt.i (1233118) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802212)

What's the point of developing software?

Fun and dollars.

Re:What a choice: Which lock-in do you want? (1)

terjeber (856226) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802386)

Just curious - and no I am no big fan of Adobe either - but how is Adobe doing a lock in? They do not own the OS, the developer tools in question are generally open source. What is the Adobe lock in?

There are rational defenses (2, Insightful)

immaterial (1520413) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802196)

However, they're probably not defenses that Adobe or people who support the general concept of "openness" would appreciate.

AppleInsider [appleinsider.com] claims it's due to the new multitasking features in iPhone OS 4.0. I don't know if I fully buy that, though the argument that Apple's policy change is part of the 4.0 release seems to support the idea (if they merely wanted to cut out Adobe from the beginning, they could have changed their policy much earlier).

Personally, I think it's a UI-based decision. Apple's whole schtick is focused on a consistent interface that functions smoothly and easily to the end user, rather than trying to pack in as many little features as possible. (Feel free to debate the merits of this type of thinking; it's certainly not for everyone but it seems to be working for them.)

Apple does not want a flood of half-assed iPhone and iPad apps written in a "write once, run on any number of systems and interfaces" manner. In Steve's opinion, if you want sell an iPhone app, write an iPhone app, with all the care and diligence to the iPhone's interface which that entails. Now, I'm sure it would be possible to use Flash's cross-compiling feature to make some wonderful, perfectly native-UIed iPhone apps, but I'm also willing to bet that 99% of the time this feature would be used to half-assedly convert some Flash game to an iPhone game. Again, feel free to debate the merits of such a closed ecosystem, but you can't exactly claim there's no rational basis behind the rules.

Conclusions? (3, Informative)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802206)

People are jumping to too many conclusions here. Apple updated the developer terms, and has not confirmed that they will shut Adobe-compiled apps out. The compile-flash-to-iPhone feature from Adobe is vaporware anyway for now, as Adobe hasn't really shown it that publicly yet. Appleinsider is reporting that the ban is not from spite but for technical reasons [macnn.com] ; as cross-compiled code may interfere with the proper multitasking coming out in iPhoneOS 4.0.

I won't get mad at Apple until it's confirmed that they are shutting it out. Apple selectively enforces it's developer rules (they let Google's app through when it used private APIs), and Apple hasn't commented on the Flash-compiler controversy. No, a ranting Adobe evangelist has as little information as you or I do at the moment.

Re:Conclusions? (2, Informative)

PolyDwarf (156355) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802366)

"proper multitasking" and what Apple is doing don't belong in the same sentence.

If it *was* proper multi-tasking (and the cross-compile didn't do stupid things, of course), there wouldn't be a problem.

Freedom? There's no App for that. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802210)

One thing Apple can never ever give you until they change their minds: Freedom.

You can't take it for yourself because it would equate with theft until they grant you permission.

There's not App for freedom.

What's the fuss? (2, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802260)

Apple just doesn't want lousy bloated code that is generated badly and lazily from some bloated Adobe app that probably costs a fortune.

XCode is free, Cocao touch and ObjC is much nicer to use than most mobile platforms (Symbian is horrid). Why buy some Adobe toolkit and churn out rubbish?

Developers for games consoles have to use the official SDK, why should a handheld gaming platform (that is also a phone) be any different?

Bubble? (1)

keith_nt4 (612247) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802318)

This seems like the iPhone bubble: it's where a lot of people are swarming to stand in line to be and that high demand gives Apple a lot of power. Like most bubbles I assume it will burst, leaving Apple with overly restrictive policies developers have abandoned. I can't blame them for cashing in during the bubble though.

I've bought my last Apple product until Jobs goes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802354)

How can Apple developers work for someone like Jobs?
If he can do this to all of the Flash/Unity3D developers to save a nickel, what will he do to them?

"Five Tremendous Apple vs. Adobe Flash Myths" (4, Insightful)

repetty (260322) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802384)

Five Tremendous Apple vs. Adobe Flash Myths

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/10/five-tremendous-apple-vs-adobe-flash-myths/ [roughlydrafted.com]

A bit of his summary:

And so, through a mix of incompetence, belligerence and emotionalist hypocrisy, Adobe has been pumping a non-stop stream of propaganda about how critically important Flash is on mobile devices, even though millions of people been using the highest ranked smartphone for three years now without suffering any ill (not even the rest of humanity on lessor smartphones have missed being able to render desktop Flash content, because they haven’t been able to either). There’s a reason for all that talk: Adobe is terrified.

Suck it, Adobe. (0, Troll)

sootman (158191) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802394)

Apple made a business decision... just like Adobe did when they bought Macromedia (and with it, Flash) and gave up on SVG. [adobe.com]

Get over it. (5, Insightful)

stefaanh (189270) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802430)

Somehow, developers have to realize that the iPhone, iPad (and in a certain way an iMac too) are no longer meant to be computers with an operating system. They are devices with an API. As far as I see these API's are trying to protect the devices (and the company and the users).

Get over it.

Why can't this crybaby just accept... (1)

carlhaagen (1021273) | more than 4 years ago | (#31802448)

...that Apple wants _nothing_ to do with the stinking piece of feces that is Flash? F****ng realize that this would never had happened if Flash wasn't such a slow, obese, cpu-hungry, inefficient piece of trash. Don't shift the blame on others just because they don't want your shit splashing around them.

Delay, again ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31802450)

We shall return to the good old " not for mac " for every software from Adobe, or stay with the 24 months delay between the plateform just to see how it works those days

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