Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Something For (Almost) Every Developer

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the get-coding dept.

Programming 263

First up, reader martinjlogan sends along a tutorial for setting up a workable Erlang/OTP development environment on a Mac. Next, reader acid06 notes news of Perl 5.12, including what may be the first delivered fix for the Y2K38 bug. (Hit the Read More link below for some details on Perl's new release strategy.) "After two years of development, the new major version of Perl is now available. Notable new features are: better Unicode support, proper support for time after the Y2038 barrier, new APIs to allow developers to extend Perl with 'pluggable' keywords and syntax, warnings for deprecated features and more. From the linked post: You can get it from the CPAN right now or wait for a platform-specific release (such as Strawberry Perl for Windows)." Finally, from reader snydeq: "InfoWorld's Martin Heller provides an in-depth review of Visual Studio 2010 and finds Microsoft taking several large steps away from its legacy IDE code. 'Visual Studio 2010 is a major upgrade in functionality and capability from its predecessor. Developers, architects, and testers will all find areas where the new version makes their jobs easier. Despite the higher pricing for this version, most serious Microsoft-oriented shops will upgrade to Visual Studio 2010 and never look back,' Heller writes. Chief among the improvements are Microsoft's revamping the core editing and designer views to use WPF, its overhaul of IntelliSense and support for test-driven development, and its intelligent support for multiple versions of the .Net Framework."
Re: Perl. This release cycle marks a change to a time-based release process. Beginning with version 5.11.0, we make a new development release of Perl available on the 20th of each month. Each spring, we will release a new stable version of Perl. One month later, we will make a minor update to deal with any issues discovered after the initial ".0" release. Future releases in the stable series will follow quarterly. In contrast to releases of Perl, maintenance releases will contain fixes for issues discovered after the .0 release, but will not include new features or behavior.

cancel ×

263 comments

VS upgrade cycle (4, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841008)

most serious Microsoft-oriented shops will upgrade to Visual Studio 2010 and never look back

Of course, implying that you're not a serious Microsoft-oriented shop if you don't upgrade. This is the exact opposite of the case. As Microsoft regularly changes stuff in VS that no-one wants, most people don't upgrade until necessity forces it on them. It's entirely network effects. If you're using precompiled third party libraries and they upgrade, chances are you'll be forced to upgrade. If Microsoft made it easier to use the new IDE without upgrading the compilers, the standard lib, the header install, etc, I imagine more people would accept the feature improvements (and the bug fixes!) to the IDE without trepidation.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841044)

He was implying no such thing.

Most serious Microsoft-oriented shops will do X =/=> All shops who do not do X are not both serious and Microsoft-oriented.

most people don't upgrade until necessity forces it on them

Not my experience when it comes to Visual Studio.

If Microsoft made it easier to use the new IDE without upgrading the compilers, the standard lib, the header install, etc, I imagine more people would accept the feature improvements (and the bug fixes!) to the IDE without trepidation.

Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (5, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841134)

Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

I think its a great idea.. there's no reason why the IDE release cycle has to be tied to the compiler release cycle.. except that Microsoft likes the lockin.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (3, Insightful)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841468)

there's no reason why the IDE release cycle has to be tied to the compiler release cycle..

There's Intellisense which, you may have heard, is kind of a big deal about Visual Studio. If the language adds new constructs (which is does), and the IDE isn't updated to cope with that, then you end up with useless, or even worse-than-useless, Intellisense.

What they could do is have the language team produce and release a patch for Intellisense to correspond to their language releases, but then you get into the nasty situation where the language team has to build and QA patches for 3 or 4 versions of Visual Studio-- bugs would creep in, undoubtedly.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841686)

One of us misunderstood the earlier posts, and I think it's probably you. The proposal isn't about upgrading the compiler without upgrading the IDE, though I can see why some people would want to do so given VS's history of getting slower and more bloated with each release. In this thread, the proposal is about upgrading the IDE without being forced to upgrade the compiler, which makes sense if you rely on legacy but now non-standard behaviour, or if you're encountering compiler bugs but could work around them with the compiler you've been using prior to the update, to give two real world scenarios.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841716)

Then one of us is definitely confused, because VS can be set to use the old compilers. Well, maybe not for all languages, but definitely for C#... I'm working on a .NET 2.0 project in VS2008 right now. (VS2008 was released with .NET 3.5.)

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841804)

FWIW, I was thinking of C++, which has been the cripple of the VS family ever since the first .Net version. It might be possible to set up a custom build process using an older compiler with the newer IDE, but it's been a hassle at best at least up to VS2008.

Yeah it's a problem - CE6 (1)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841760)

CE6 development is no longer done through Platform Builder. It's a Visual Studio plugin. But - only for VS 2005. They've never updated it. Even if I wanted to upgrade I couldn't.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (4, Informative)

AndrewStephens (815287) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841052)

Agreed. I work in a "serious Microsoft shop" and we have just migrated our projects to VS2008. Experience has taught us that although the Microsoft Dev environments are of high quality, for the first 12 months there will be service packs and patches. We do not want to have to migrate our whole team and our projects every 3 months just to keep up.

That said, I am looking forward to using VS2010 eventually. I couldn't care less about .NET but the new C++ language features are neat.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (2, Insightful)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841190)

...we have just migrated our projects to VS2008.

They can have my MSVC 6 when they pry it from my cold dead GLURK, gaaasssspp...

One problem I've had is the new redistributable requirements of each release. Not insurmountable, but a real concern when considering an upgrade.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841138)

The problem you are facing is the fact that it isn't the serious Microsoft-oriented shop don't want to upgrade but they're programming skills are at a level where they can't upgrade. Using 3rd party libraries are always risky, and should be avoided unless it is really doing something that will take you much longer to accomplish. However a lot of the Microsoft shops have very poor programers or the odd hack who thinks he is a programmer by glueing a bunch of 3rd party tools even ones that already come with the default library. 3 or 4 grid controls, a Menu Bar Control or two... 3 or 4 image controls... So they end up with a program that they cannot upgrade. But this isn't really the fault of Microsoft though... It is just because of the bad programmers. If you see a VS.NET application written by a pro it is a clean fast and easily upgradable system.

I Program in many different languages and I keep Visual Studio Ready for the jobs it does well. I remember startling a bunch of Java only programmers on how fast I was able to get my system to talk to their system and I was able to support the new features that they had on their spec list before they actually finished programming it themselves. That said when I need to process text data I prefer Python as it gets the job done better for that job.

If you are willing to stop getting all huffy puffy, emotional and political about you're programming languages you will find there are a lot of better ways to get a lot of your work done.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841178)

Using 3rd party libraries are always risky, and should be avoided unless it is really doing something that will take you much longer to accomplish.

So reinventing the wheel is a good thing?
I do not do MS related development, but from where I stand reinventing the wheel is nuts. Do you think all of CPAN is there just for the heck of it?

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841260)

reinventing the wheel

is a kinda naive way to refer to horizontal integration of the industry.. and considering that you were replying to a guy who I thought was very naive, I'm overdosing on naivety here. Vertical integration has some great virtues but is not representative of a mature industry.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (2, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841306)

I think CPAN is there to make you go nuts trying to get a downloaded Perl Script to work as you dig around trying to find the right libraries to make the freakin program work... But I am not a fan of Perl so I digress...

The 3rd party problem isn't a case of reinventing the wheel. But getting new wheels that already exist just because they are slightly different, eg a grid control that automaticly populates from the database vs. Loading it from 3 other commands...

But... Sometimes for programming reinventing the wheel is a good thing. Why...

  1. Maintenance. A 3rd party control means code you probably wont touch... Even if it is open source you will not probably spend to much time reworking it unless you really have to
  2. Portability. Just as the Grand Parent mentioned moving to the next version of you developer system may break the third party tool, while you own version can be upgraded much easier, also if you were say moving from a windows form based app to a web app you already have the logic there to port you app over.
  3. Knowlege. Black Boxes in your knowledge and your product can be a bad thing. If you do it yourself you know how it works, if you don't and you find a problem you look and feel stupid
  4. Your License. If you get a GNU 3rd party license you have to follow the GNU. If you get a closed source license you need to follow their rules... You make it yourself you can license it any way you choose, as well as the rest of your app.
  5. Optimal Solution. Your code will do just as you need it to do. No more, No Less 3rd party tools either have you taking out a feature you would like. Or just do a lot more then you need causing issue later on.
  6. Easier for others to follow. If someone else is tracing you code and you get a 3rd party tool, it is either a black box application that you are referencing where you need to break your trace to see what the heck it is for. Or there is source and you go in there and it being code by a different person it is like you are in Wonderland were all coding styles have changed.
  7. Deployment. If possible you can get that app to run as a single unit deploying it is much easier as say for windows no registering a bunch of crap.
  8. Cleaning. If you have 3rd party tools that have been there for a while, you really don't want to get rid of them without knowing how it will effect your other program. Your own code it is a bit easier

Re:VS upgrade cycle (2, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841346)

CPAN installs everything you need, that is why the tool cpan exists. If it takes extra work, you are doing it wrong.

1. if it does not do what you want, don't use it
2. just fix the code like you would fix your own, or replace it.
3. if you don't have source don't use it. No blackboxes that way.
4. So long as code is all internal who cares.
5. Use the features you need.
6. Again if you don't have source you are a fool to use it.
7. No, this is wrong. This is why every damn windows apps brings along it's own copy of everything. Get a fucking package manager you dolts.
8. same issue when you have more than 1 developer internal or external.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

micheas (231635) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841530)

<snip>

  1. Easier for others to follow. If someone else is tracing you code and you get a 3rd party tool, it is either a black box application that you are referencing where you need to break your trace to see what the heck it is for. Or there is source and you go in there and it being code by a different person it is like you are in Wonderland were all coding styles have changed.

<snip>

Although, if you use a well known and used library, it can make it easier to find a programmer that knows their way around at least part of your program, and can may get up to speed quickly. Although this applies to frameworks more than libraries, it still holds true to an extent.

This is more true if you are using opensource libraries.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841642)

Your statement about CPAN bothers me. But I am a fan of Perl so I digress...

I agree with most of your points about libraries, but I feel you missed a big one: bugs. My job involves gluing together a few third-party libraries to fit our product. (various Apache stuff, mostly). Now and then, we hit bugs. Not major ones, but significant enough to cause a few hours of lost productivity.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (4, Interesting)

GoatEnigma (586728) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841486)

If no one ever reinvented the wheel, we'd all be running around on stone wheels.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

The Snowman (116231) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841278)

Using 3rd party libraries are always risky, and should be avoided unless it is really doing something that will take you much longer to accomplish.

...unless you want to finish your project in half the time.

Third party libraries, frameworks, and toolkits exist for a purpose: to make your life easier.

Do you program GUIs by manipulating pixels in the video frame buffer? Do you manage files by communicating directly with the file system layer of the kernel? Interpret mouse clicks by talking to the mouse driver?

I bet you use third party libraries all the time without even knowing it.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841334)

They are not 3rd party tool... They are the developments language mainline tools...
There is a difference.
Mainline tools you know they are there and if you move to a different development environment they are still there. 3rd party tool you take your code and move it to a new system it will not run until you reinstall the other tools.

And as I stated in my post that you added as the quote "unless it is really doing something that will take you much longer to accomplish."

Meaning that 3rd party tools are not evil however need to be chosen and used with care once you found out that there is no other easy option with the mainline tools.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (5, Informative)

yuriks (1089091) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841232)

Actually, one of the features of 2010 is that you can target old compiler versions (starting with VS2008) with the new IDE.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841276)

What does regularly change in VS that no one wants?

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841356)

some random examples of the 2005 to 2008 transition:

* The entire Tool menu is different, in particular, Lookup Error is gone.. annoys me daily.
* The solution file format didn't change but they still added the "convert solution" nonsense that means you have to maintain two sln files to maintain backwards compatibility with 2005.. and means people who are using 2008 simply can't supply sln files to 2005 users.. and the vcproj files often need hacking. Why can't they maintain backwards compatibility... it's a text file!
* The Build Order dialog is completely gone. In 2008 Microsoft decides your build order, no control for you.

but, primarily, I dislike the forced upgrade of the runtime/compiler with the IDE. Another poster says this is addressed in VS2010.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841560)

I have Error Lookup under my tools menu.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

Com2Kid (142006) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841646)

The solution file format didn't change but they still added the "convert solution" nonsense that means you have to maintain two sln files to maintain backwards compatibility with 2005.. and means people who are using 2008 simply can't supply sln files to 2005 users.. and the vcproj files often need hacking. Why can't they maintain backwards compatibility... it's a text file!

The solution file is XML in both 2005 and 2008, true, but the capabilities of the file format have increased to support the new solution types of VS2008, amongst probably other reasons.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841658)

yes, and there's no reason why they couldn't maintain backwards compatibility... They just didn't try.

Re:VS upgrade cycle (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841340)

This is the fourth release of Visual Studio (.NET, 2005, 2008, 2010) since VB6 and while many shops clung on to VB6 rather than convert to .NET, this is the point where a code rewrite is starting to make sense and it's time to get with the latest. 2010 has been available in a time-limited public beta and a non-limited MSDN release for months now... this year seems to be great for VB-based programmers.

WTONG !! 2002, 2003, 2005, 2008, 2010 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841426)

Pretend all you want, you can't fool the fool fool!

Or, 7, 7.1, 8, 9, 10

I am the one and only, I am the fool fool!

Whew! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841022)

proper support for time after the Y2038 barrier

Good to know that my time machine written in PERL will no longer malfunction due to improperly handled timestamps! Now to test this baby out. This knob here, this button here, and... %^$%^$%^$%^$%^ NO CARRIER

Re:Whew! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841048)

Too bad perl didn't solve the 2006 problem. You know, the fact that it's been irrelevant for 4 years.

Re:Whew! (1)

biryokumaru (822262) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841082)

Dude, that's where he went in his time machine. Duh.

Just four years? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841090)

That's generous.

Re:Whew! (1)

suso (153703) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841308)

Too bad perl didn't solve the 2006 problem. You know, the fact that it's been irrelevant for 4 years.

Why? Because its old? You still use Linux, right? If you run a Mac, that runs Unix. Both those OSes include Perl by default.

By the way, you're still on Slashdot, that's old too and also runs on Perl. Don't be an idiot.

Re:Whew! (1)

badboy_tw2002 (524611) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841118)

I'm confused, are you from the past and your time machine connects to the future on a modem?

Re:Whew! (1)

suso (153703) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841164)

Oh wow, I didn't know the Time::Warp module did that. I always ignored that module.

Perl has a module for everything.

Re:Whew! (1)

t-er-eyma (757979) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841186)

Er... not trying to spoil your joke... but... the issue is not with Perl, but with most 32bit Linux machines, simply because time_t is a 32bit number and it overflows after 2038. That's a real problem that is out there and looks worse then the Y2K issue. But maybe you're just hoping there will be no 32bit binaries in use in 2038, in which case you don't have to worry. But notice that this problem currently affects any 32bit binary that uses the system functions to handle date and time.

Re:Whew! (1)

nextekcarl (1402899) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841256)

Many of the people reading this site won't be here in 2038. Some due to age related causes, and many due to other causes. *

* Brought to you by your favorite anti-depressants. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Re:Whew! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841374)

Remember that 2038 comes about in around about 27.75 years. 27.75 years ago was mid-1982. I was still doing my computing with a DECWriter II teletype spitting out reams of green-bar paper connected via a 300 baud breadbox modem to a PDP-11/44.

My point is 27.75 years is a long time in this industry. 64-bit hardware is becoming more and more ubiquitous, the OS's are starting to follow, and apps are as well. Will there still be 32-bit apps around in 2038? Yeah, I'm pretty certain of it. However, I think most of them will have been phased out, and what remains will get fixed with urgency, but nothing like the Y2K problem.

Re:Whew! (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841650)

So they can use a double word for their time_t rather than a word. Problem solved.

Just to clarify... (5, Funny)

Valdrax (32670) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841638)

%^$%^$%^$%^$%^ NO CARRIER

Just to clarify, does that actually do something in Perl?

Stereotyping? (2, Insightful)

kickme_hax0r (968593) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841028)

So almost every developer either: a) Uses Erlang and a Mac b) Uses Perl or c) Uses VS2010? Is it just me, it would there still be a fair chunk of developers not included?

Re:Stereotyping? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841092)

It's just you.

Re:Stereotyping? (1)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841124)

yes, you are the fair chunk of developers that are not included :P

Re:Stereotyping? (3, Informative)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841180)

Well, almost every Unix developer uses Perl for glue code, and almost every Microsoft developer will use VS2010, and if you're programming a Mac, I don't see how you could be sufficiently non-erudite to use anything but Erlang.

Re:Stereotyping? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841230)

Shut up, dude. This is still one of the better ones to come out in a while. Look at all the other posts recently. And I HATE Perl.

So... (5, Insightful)

FlyingBishop (1293238) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841058)

We've started churning out pointless stories all day and then cramming four actual news posts into a single thread?

Re:So... (4, Funny)

crazycheetah (1416001) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841128)

Welcome to Slashdot!

Re:So... (1)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841144)

where have you been?

Re:So... (2, Insightful)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841492)

At the very least, it could have been 4 actual entries so that the comments don't just become a huge clusterfuck.

But... nobody running Slashdot gives a fuck. They don't even pretend, really.

IDEs (1)

JohnFluxx (413620) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841064)

I wonder what other developers think of IDEs.

I really like the intelliSense etc as an idea. But in practice the whole IDE thing gets in my way.

IntelliSense does let me write code faster, but I find that I don't spend most of the day actually typing in code as fast as I can. I spend a large amount of time using git (revision control tool) on the command line, or debugging and profiling the app, using strace, nm and other command line tools, and so on. The IDE really gets in my way most of the time.

If I switch between branches or revisions (which I do often - git is so wonderful) then IDEs tend to go haywire as hundreds of files suddenly change, and then change again and again..

So, I stick to vim. I know there's ctags etc but I don't even bother with that. After a while I tend to just remember most of the API anyway.

Re:IDEs (4, Interesting)

badboy_tw2002 (524611) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841152)

When your project size starts getting large and the number of classes/functions/types/etc starts heading to the thousands its pretty nice to have something that will quickly show you the organization of the code base and help you find things faster. Stuff like "I'm in a source file, open the corresponding header" or "show me all the places that call this function" or "rename this function everywhere it was used" or even "let me browse through the 10 versions of the function to see the right one without having to load the header file and stare at it". Also, when there's tight checkout integration its nice to click on another file, check it out, etc. without having to drop to the command line or move to something else. That's not to say that the command line isn't useful - I still find it easier to sometimes run makes or grep or whatever so there's always one handy, but personally I get a lot more done than with a plain old editor.

Re:IDEs (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841290)

agreed. A good IDE is superior to grep.. and that's the right metric. That said, often VS fails so hard at being better than grep that I reach for the built-in grep (it's called Find In Files). If anyone wants to try beating Microsoft at making a better IDE than VS, study the way people use Find In Files and make it better.. for example, if I they added a dropdown on the Find In Files which let me select "function calls", or "templates" or "class definitions", that'd be great.

Re:IDEs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841360)

Eclipse is a better IDE than VS.

And, yeah, I've used both. I think VS is a miserable chunk of shit, and that when people call it the best in the industry, they're either lying or misguided.

Still, I'm more of a vim/minibufexplorer/ctags kinda guy.

Re:IDEs (4, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841384)

Eclipse might be better than VS, but I've never been able to get it to run fast enough to be usable.

Last time I installed it the person advocating it to me looked over my shoulder and said "yeah, I think you need to upgrade your video drivers".

Re:IDEs (4, Interesting)

abigor (540274) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841612)

I really hate Eclipse actually. I find it buggy, slow, and non-intuitive in a lot of ways. For Java stuff, IntelliJ IDEA is really great. For non-MS C and C++...I'm not really sure anymore. I mostly end up using Vim and the command line.

Re:IDEs (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841786)

You should try a recent release. Eclipse used to be very slow on Linux until a few releases ago, due issues in the GTK+ SWT bindings.

It's always been very snappy on Windows.

Also don't use any of the natively compiled versions that some distros ship, they're much slower than standard Eclipse. Always get Eclipse from Eclipse.org, because distro packaged versions have historically been quite out of date (although they're working keeping things more recent).

Re:IDEs (3, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841224)

I use IDE as a tool.

The problem is some people use it as a crutch... "If the IDE doesn't handle it then it cant be done" mindset

But it is a tool to keep in your cap. I know Visual Studio 2008 is good at showing me methods and properties I can access from the variables which is handy to let you know what is going on in a datatype/class you don't use much.
However sometime I will take the file out of Visual Studios to do some additional coding because Visual Studios Expects you to code in Top Down in this order...
IF (x == y)
{
            msgbox("hello");
}

However real life has it more like this...

msgbox("hello");

run test...

Up arrow Return
if (x == y) {
return down arrow to go past the msgbox command
}

For this case the IDE is a pain because it will try to close my if statments {} which if I am not paying attention it will give me an extra } that I need to dig around and find when I get a compile error.

as far as I can remember ... (0, Flamebait)

jobst (955157) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841080)

Perl had a 5 in front .. in fact since 1994 I think.

Re:as far as I can remember ... (1, Offtopic)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841112)

The Perl 6 Design Team had a 6 in the middle, since 2000, and on and on it goes................

http://use.perl.org/~chromatic/journal/40296 [perl.org]

Erlang is an interesting language (4, Interesting)

msobkow (48369) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841100)

I've been working with Erlang for about 9 months now. It's an interesting language, but prone to some of the most bizarre runtime problems because it doesn't do type checking (for example if you typo a "+" instead of "++" when concatenating strings it'll defer the error to runtime, when it reports an "arith error".)

One thing that really impresses me about Erlang is how tight the code is. We've been working on a PBX application (with Freeswitch and PostgreSQL) and it's not even 30,000 lines of code in Erlang, including database I/Os and client/server GUI access. C++ would have weighed in at around 100,000 lines for the same functionality.

Re:Erlang is an interesting language (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841292)

Too bad it's such an ugly language.

Re:Erlang is an interesting language (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841422)

In many languages ++ means concat the lists, so I assume that if a string is a list of characters then its a concat of the two lists? I'd guess that once you understand the underlying concepts and seen a few functional languages then its not too confusing to debug. It is frustrating to have to wait until runtime to find errors that a decent IDE would identify immediately..

I always wondered how well Erlang handles caching. An LRU is generally a list crosscutting a hash-table and is done O(1) by reordering the entry. As Erlang uses persistent values, this would be O(n). Also, since an actor handles messages sequentially it couldn't handle a high load. Do Erlang folks do caching in the VM or is it purely externalized? I suspect that the common apporoach is to use memcached with a pool of actors that make the out-of-process calls? This would resolve the shared state issues, though how expensive is the serialization overhead?

Re:Erlang is an interesting language (2, Interesting)

Algan (20532) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841512)

I've been using Erlang as my primary language for the past 2 years and I have to say that you are essentially correct. My worst typo-leading-to-weird-bug situation was forgetting a comma in a list of strings. Apparently ["foo", "bar" "baz"] is interpreted as ["foo", "barbaz"]. That led to some subtle failures in a totally different part of the code.

However, occasional weird issues aside, it does reduce the size of the code and the number of bugs by a factor of 4 or 5. I have been able to write non-trivial pieces of code in the range of 100 lines that ran fine the first time around. That never happened with C/C++/Java. And the way Erlang and the OTP environment handles product deployments and maintenance is really superb.

Re:Erlang is an interesting language (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841654)

Don't forget the application frameworks as well.

Official site of Perl 6 (1)

Stan Vassilev (939229) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841108)

Talking about Perl, this is the official Perl 6 site:

http://perl6.org/ [perl6.org]

Srsly :P

2K38? (5, Insightful)

the_humeister (922869) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841148)

Would it hurt to just write 2038? No space is saved writing it the other way.

Re:2K38? (5, Funny)

moteyalpha (1228680) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841200)

I think that 2K-10 is even better. 2K-10=(1024*2)-10=2048-10=2038=(2^11)-10

Re:2K38? (1)

Burdell (228580) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841558)

What does "2K-10" mean? How can you subtract 10 from 2 Kelvin? You can't go below absolute zero. Oh, you meant "2k-10", but that's 2000-10 or 1990.

In any case, using an "abbreviation" that is longer than the original is pretty pointless.

Re:2K38? (1)

pushing-robot (1037830) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841300)

It's a shortened version of "Y2K38", [wikipedia.org] in homage to "the Y2K bug" (which is itself a conveniently shortened version of "the Y2KOMGWTFBBQwereallgonnadie!1!eleven bug").

Re:2K38? (1)

Trogre (513942) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841372)

That still doesn't stop people saying "double-you double-you double-you" instead of "world wide web", or the dreaded "dub dub dub".

Re:2K38? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841708)

It's "wub wub wub".

VS2010 & DW (1)

Unka Willbur (1771596) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841150)

Visual Studio 2010 is a very nice step in the right direction, it's much better than previous versions. That said, Dreamweaver CS5 is the first step in a true IDE from Adobe and rocks hard for the huge amount of Wordpress development I do.

CTRL+TAB in Visual Studio 2010 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841192)

It might be a minor detail, but you should know that they finally fixed CTRL+TAB in VS 2010 so that it behaves like every other tabbed interface in the world.

...

...

...nah, just kidding, it still sucks balls.

Strawberry Perl will be out in a week or so (4, Informative)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841208)

Strawberry Perl has been doing betas all the way through the 5.12.0 RC process, so the production release should be out in a week or so.

What the summary doesn't mention is that there's some stuff in 5.12 that allows Strawberry to add:

GCC-based 64-bit support for Windows servers

Strawberry Portable (flash drive) stuff finally works in a first-class manner (with separate core/vendor/site installation targets).

Re:Strawberry Perl will be out in a week or so (1)

Nimey (114278) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841800)

Since I'm too lazy to google (it's almost bedtime), WTF is Strawberry Perl?

new major version of Perl is now available. (-1, Troll)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841252)

Oh great... has the byzantine syntax finally been rationalized?

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (-1, Troll)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841376)

OK, I guess the truth hurts so much that it needs to be labeled as a troll. Fine with me. But, to be honest here, such censorship only hurts Perl. It would be really, really great if the Perl developers would take a step back, look at what has been created, and develop a Perl that is the result of what has been learnt thus far, and not an accommodation of what has transpired thus far.

But that's just my opinion, and the mods seem to think it is a troll......

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (-1, Troll)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841474)

-1 troll. I love it. It shows that I have hit a nerve. Can't take an honest opinion from a user of your software? Well, that is truly a shame, and quite indicative of the Perl mentality. "It's not good, let's suppress it". (and please notice that I do know how to spell truly.....)

I dare you to leave this thread visible for 2+ people. If it is as bad as you think, it will only trash everyone's opinion of me. But if if it is as true as I think, it will expose a weakness in Perl. So the questiojn lingers, what are you really worried about?

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (-1, Troll)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841542)

Another Troll mark. Should I fell honoured?

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (4, Insightful)

Sarten-X (1102295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841536)

It's considered trolling because that's purely what it is.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us with some examples of "byzantine syntax", since Greek and Latin [wikipedia.org] aren't valid Perl. Perhaps you meant "British" syntax, since the language is based more off of English than other programming languages. Yes, I'm aware this places it in the same group as COBOL, but hear me out.

Perl's syntax is based off natural language. You should be able to tell the computer what to do in the same way you'd tell another person, with some obvious extra clarity needed. In this regard, it is the opposite of INTERCAL. In Perl, when you want to run a function 'foo' if and only if 'bar' is true, the statement is very close to what I've just said.

foo if bar;

Sure, it's not like C, but why should we limit our thinking? Alternatively, just as in English you can say "If 'bar' is true, run 'foo'":

if (bar) { foo }

Perl is a language for people who use language. Even the more ugly syntax makes perfect sense with a bit of thought:

s/foo/bar/g;

That's a full statement, saying "substitute foo with bar globally". It applies to whatever you happen to be working on at the moment, just like how there are many statements in English that carry an implied 'you'.

The syntax of the Perl language is only ugly if you try to forget that it is a language. Perhaps other languages should try to emulate Perl's features, and actually gain some readability. Sometimes, it just makes more sense to express things differently. Would COBOL be so bad if it allowed BASIC's syntax as well (and allowing non-computer people to write in it carried the death penalty)?

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (1)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841572)

byzantine -- (sometimes l.c.) characterized by elaborate scheming and intrigue

Describes it rather well for me.

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841592)

If Perl's syntax were actually elaborate, that might hold. Maybe something like "every third line MUST be blank, unless it's a full moon, or a Thursday, in which case being blank is optional, but the line must include an uppercase letter."

Offering more than one way to write a given line, and attempting to follow the rules of a natural language, is not "elaborate scheming and intrigue". Perhaps you have a counter-example? or is this just more FUD from the I-was-told-Perl-is-ugly-so-I'll-repeat-it school of thought?

Re: new major version of Perl is now available. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841812)

Things that suck: the implicit variables and default pattern space, the special variables with a sigil and another punctuation character, the fact that there are sigils and subroutines without named parameters, the irritating hassle that is hashes of hashes, the ugly shitball bolted on OO support. Nor is CPAN is a plus, with the thousands of modules that partially and/or totally duplicate one another's functionality or that fail to work owing to years of neglect or, more often, carelessness of packaging on the programmer's part.

But the worst part about perl is the ethic of TMTOWTDI. In practice means either that one finds it done a new way for every 1000 or so lines, or that someone's imposed exactly their way to do it. Your programming is not art, and you are not writing literature; you are not a code poet. Expressing yourself in code is nowhere nearly as important as writing something stable and maintainable. One - just one - good, obvious way to do it; something that's predictable and that works. Something that, when you've moved along, the next guy can look at and not have to ask aloud what fucking asshole did this.

There's better choices out there now, even among scripting languages. We don't need to keep using the monstrous bastard amalgam of sh, sed, awk and Larry Wall's pretenses of being a linguist. Learn some new skills, and let's all just let the fucking thing die already.

Definition of 'OTP' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841270)

First up, reader martinjlogan sends along a tutorial for setting up a workable Erlang/OTP development environment on a Mac. Next, reader acid06 notes news of Perl 5.12, including what may be the first delivered fix for the Y2K38 bug. (Hit the Read More link below for some details on Perl's new release strategy.)

Here's a helpful link for those wondering what OTP [wikipedia.org] means. I'd never heard it used in this context and I image most other developers haven't either.

I wish more languages and distributions had out of the box support for OPIE [wikipedia.org] or S/KEY [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Definition of 'OTP' (1)

reillyeon (630166) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841414)

Erlang's OTP stands for "Open Telecom Platform" and is the set of standard libraries and design patterns included with the language. It has nothing to do with authentication.

Re:Definition of 'OTP' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841450)

Working in electronics I was wondering why the hell would a Mac language be one-time-programmable [wikipedia.org] .

x86 assembler thread (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841304)

In the spirit of merging multiple discussion topics into the same thread, who wants to discuss x86 assembler programming with me? Just hit reply and we'll get under way. Feel free to change the topic at any time.

Re:x86 assembler thread (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841458)

mov AX, 0013h
int 10h

Re:x86 assembler thread (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841544)

at&t syntax sucks but at least it is consistent. And ModR/M and SIB bytes are not that complicated, but the Intel manuals sure are painful to read.

What, no ActiveState mention? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841348)

While you're waiting for Strawberry Perl to put out a release, why not try a package from a company that has their stuff together? Activestate's ActivePerl 5.12.0 is free-for-non-commercial-use and already out [activestate.com] . 32- and 64-bit builds for Windows, Mac, and select Linux distros are available.

VS2010 reinventing personalized menu? (1)

imess (805488) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841366)

Quoting from the Express page:

Unique to Visual Studio® 2010 Express is a new streamlined user experience that focuses on the most common commands by hiding some of the more advanced menus and toolbars.

Anyone who has actually downloaded and used it cares to share if this is Windows 2000 style personalized menu all over again?

Re:VS2010 reinventing personalized menu? (1)

trilinear_nz (995626) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841484)

No, they have actually legitimately *removed* certain functionality.

wtf? (5, Insightful)

MagicM (85041) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841442)

Awesome. From now on, let's just post 1 story on Slashdot per day with all of the good stuff in it, so that we may discuss everything in it in one big unrelated clusterfsck of comments.

Re:wtf? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841676)

For those in Alabama, "one big unrelated clusterfsck" is kind of like the opposite of your family tree.

Perl 5.12? (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841494)

I've been waiting nearly a decade for Perl 6. Oh well.

Re:Perl 5.12? (4, Informative)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841698)

Perl 6 is mainly usable, and some form of it is being used in production at multiple sites. It's just not ready for public "launch" yet. If you really want it, you can get it. Perl6.org [perl6.org] has it.

Perl 5 hasn't exactly been sitting still the past decade. The changes between 5.6 and 5.8 or 5.8 and 5.10 are huge. I haven't looked over the full changes list for 5.12 yet, but it sure isn't the language Perl 5 was in 2000.

VS2010 bug (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841504)

Visual Studio 2010 still hasn't fixed one of the major bugs that has been around since .NET 1.0.
When you run a forms based program in debug mode on an x64 system, and the form's load event throws an exception, the program will happily continue running without reporting the exception. Execution skips directly to the end of the load sub without running any lines of code after the exception, yet the program continues to run as if nothing went wrong. Everything works as expected if you are working on an x86 box though. You will rip your hair out trying to figure out what's going on if you don't know about this.

Details can be found here http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-SG/vsdebug/thread/69a0b831-7782-4bd9-b910-25c85f18bceb [microsoft.com]

Re:VS2010 bug (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31841540)

Actually, the post you mention points out that this is a bug in x64 Windows, not in Visual Studio.

IntelliSense Overhall (1)

ponraul (1233704) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841696)

Is this finally going to be the version where Intellisense doesn't make the editor randomly pause and unresponsive?

I usually end up disabling Intellisense in C++ by removing the offending DLL from the VS installation when I'm working with heavily <template>ed code.

no brainer? (4, Informative)

thoughtsatthemoment (1687848) | more than 4 years ago | (#31841750)

I've been using VC++ Express 2008 and was excited to get an upgrade. But instead I was surprised by a few seemingly "dumb" moves:

1. The default fonts for the editor and tool windows have been changed to a font that looks very blurry on Windows XP. To change them back, you have to change them one by one for every window.

2. The drag'n Drop capability to add buttons to the tool bars is gone. You have to find the button from another dialog and then click "MoveUp/Down" several times to move it to the place you want.

3. The GUI I used the most in the Option Dialog, the directories of Exe/Include/Lib, is moved to a place that I haven't yet found.

4. The startup time is much longer than that of 2008.

5. The new GUI has a high contrast. Maybe it's just me, but after staring at it for a long time, I feel like I am starting to see ghost images.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...