Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Ogg Format Accusations Refuted

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the horse's-mouth dept.

Media 248

SergeyKurdakov sends in a followup to our discussion a couple of months ago on purported shortcomings to the Ogg format. The inventor of the format, Monty "xiphmont" Montgomery of the Xiph Foundation, now refutes those objections in detail, with the introduction: "Earnest falsehoods left unchallenged risk being accepted as fact." The refutation has another advantage besides authoritativeness: it's far better written than the attack.

cancel ×

248 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Obligatory (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32004906)

Re:Obligatory (0, Flamebait)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 4 years ago | (#32004938)

I thought this was a discussion about the ogg format, not totally overrated badly-drawn unfunny crap on the Internet?

Re:Obligatory (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32004954)

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality', which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to paedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

  • Linus Torvalds [microsoft.com] is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.
  • Richard M. Stallman [archive.org] , spokespervert for the Gaysex's Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad.
  • Alan Cox [microsoft.com] is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual [goatse.fr] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [microsoft.com] , which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.'

As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [salon.com] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says. 'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts. 'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo [comp-u-geek.net] slut [rotten.com] !

Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual [goatse.fr] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [slashdot.org] . To quote from the article linked:

'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis [rotten.com] in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?

We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.' Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual [goatse.fr] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual [goatse.fr] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.

Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.

In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups. The Slackware [redhat.com] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes. Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of claw arse, a reference to the homosexual [goatse.fr] practise of anal fisting. The Mandrake [slackware.com] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator. It was also chosen because it is an anagram for dark amen and ram naked, which is what they do.

Another 'distro,' (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco,' which is where homosexuals [goatse.fr] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is Debian, [mandrake.com] an anagram of in a bed, which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares. 'Woody' is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male penis [rotten.com] , glistening with pre-cum. But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato' that they use. This filthy term, again found in the secret homosexual [goatse.fr] 'Sauce Code,' refers to the solo homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid. The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.

And Red Hat [debian.org] is secret homo [comp-u-geek.net] slang for the tip of a penis [rotten.com] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.

The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! For example, the 'supermount' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland. 'Automount' is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to mount each other [comp-u-geek.net] automatically.

The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points.' These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration. The main one is obviously/anus, but there are others. Militant fags even say 'there is no/opt mount point' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.

More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love `man`, even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out `man`. In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.

Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherent gayness. For example, people are often told of the 'FAQ,' but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [amiga.com] users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: Faggot Anal Quest: the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!

Even the title 'Slashdot [geekizoid.com] ' originally referred to a homosexual [goatse.fr] practice. Slashdot [kuro5hin.org] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting. The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous homosexuals [goatse.fr] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, http://www.eff.org/ [eff.org] .

The editors of Slashdot [slashduh.org] also have homosexual [goatse.fr] names: 'Hemos' is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from 'Homos.' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco,' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [pboy.com] . (The best form of lubrication, they insist.) Sometimes, these 'Taco Commodes' have special 'Salsa Sauce' (blood from a ruptured rectum) and 'Cheese' (rancid flakes of penis [rotten.com] discharge) toppings. And to make it even worse, Slashdot [notslashdot.org] runs on Apache!

The Apache [microsoft.com] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after homosexual [goatse.fr] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, the Village People, featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.

And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.

To summarise: Linux is gay. 'Slash -- Dot' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus. And BeOS [apple.com] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.'

FEEDBACK

What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do. I'm scared I actually read this whole thing. I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people. This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this. And actually take the time to do it too. Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code' once. Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel'?), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species. It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [comp-u-geek.net] -calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.

You must work for the government. Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes. If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Doesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters? You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man. Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond? The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [goatse.fr] child molesting Linux advocacy. Hell, they've given NAMBLA free reign for years!

you really should post this logged in. i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you. -- mighty jebus [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Thank you for your kind words of support. However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously. This is because the 'Open Sauce' movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom. I speak for the common man. For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's vagina [bodysnatchers.co.uk] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child. These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture. I am the unknown liberator [hitler.org] .

ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

We shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society. This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [rotten.com] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [zillabunny.com] .

Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works. I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum. I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely in case you're interested. (Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?) -- double_h [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code' is riddled with bugs that need fixing. (The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: 'Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow.' And anyway, the PS2 [xbox.com] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money. Intellivision forever!

dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

For one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, NT [linux.com] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them. Remember, a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [atheism.org] . Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor. All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems. It is the only route to salvation.

Secondly, this message is for every man. Computers know no colour. Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by a Black Man [stileproject.com] . Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.

And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace' for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them. -- phee [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Although there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that Perl [python.org] (standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle,' 'Pearl Nosering,' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema.'

One scary thing about Perl [sun.com] is that it contains hidden homosexual [goatse.fr] messages. Take the following code: LWP::Simple -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it? But look at the line closely: There are two colons next to each other! As Larry 'Balls to the' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation, Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing,' whereby two homosexual [goatse.fr] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together. They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone. This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as 'Parameter Passing.'

And PHP [perl.org] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration. Didn't you know?

Thank you for your valuable input on this. I am sure you will be never forgotten. BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars? Mars rulaa. -- Eimernase [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I do know that homosexual [goatse.fr] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.

That's inspiring. Keep up the good work, AC. May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again. Yours, Cerberus. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

*sniff* That brings a tear to my eye. Thank you once more for your kind support. I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [atheism.org] 's work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.

However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot. It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical. Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an 'extension' to the Linux 'Sauce Code,' for the sake of 'interoperability.' (The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind.)

In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (Love of Anal Naughtiness, needless to say.), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the 'Samba Mount,' into their homes. Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal. Eventually, the 'Samba Mount' collapses due to 'overload,' and needs to be 'rebooted.' (i.e., kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime' in such situations.

Inspiring stuff! If only all trolls were this quality! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

If only indeed. You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible. I recommend '+1, Underrated,' as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [slashdot.org] . Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture. Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender'???

If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived forever! Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!

It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [catholic.net] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow. It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.

As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it. When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours,' but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two,' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.

I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I sincerely hope you're Natalie Portman [archive.org] .

Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading. Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it. As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time. 10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass. Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software. Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that. Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise. For concision is the soul of derision. Way. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

What the fuck?

I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed. In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [comp-u-geek.net] tend to be full of. Thank you again. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well bugger me!

ooooh honey. how insecure are you!!! wann a little massage from deare bruci. love you -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Fuck right off!

IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not HURD [linux.org] , which is an acronym for 'Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator') across the whole community, so it has been released into the Public Domain [icopyright.com] . You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [apple.com] (Gay Penetration License) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest feces-encrusted [rotten.com] cock. I would have put this up on Freshmeat [adultmember.com] , but that name is known to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.

Come to think of it, the whole concept of 'Source Control' unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control,' which is a description of the homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum. And 'Open Sauce' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later. Obviously, 'Closed Sauce' is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.

Contributors: (although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit' that open 'sauce' development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward. Further contributions are welcome.

Current changes: This version sent to FreeWIPO [slashdot.org] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text. Reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links). Even more spelling fixed. Who wrote this thing, CmdrTaco himself?

Previous changes: Yet more changes added. Spelling fixed. Feedback added. Explanation of 'distro' system. 'Mount Point' syntax described. More filth regarding `man` and Slashdot. Yet more fucking spelling fixed. 'Fetchmail' uncovered further. More Slashbot baiting. Apache exposed. Distribution licence at foot of document.

ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass!

Re:Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005130)

Rullgard status:
[] : Not told
[X] : Told

And don't forget (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005140)

"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer."

-- Cancer Omega

Re:Obligatory (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005202)

I hate to break it to you, but nothing about this is obligatory.

Re:Obligatory (2, Funny)

noidentity (188756) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005682)

That is so fitting, especially because this rebuttal quotes the original with numbered lines! I can't stop laughing.

Do niggers use Ogg? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32004916)

I'm curious..

Re:Do niggers use Ogg? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005008)

"I'm curious.."

Curious? Or just emotionally/mentally retarded....hmmm.

Re:Do niggers use Ogg? (-1, Offtopic)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005122)

Would that be bovine-curious, or ovine-curious?

tl;dr (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32004946)

tilder.

Re:tl;dr (0, Offtopic)

quercus.aeternam (1174283) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005030)

Thanks to your excellent information, I shall be /extra/ careful to not look at TFA.

tl;dr (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005024)

Is there, you know, a summary or something so I don't have to wade through that long fricking rant in order to actually learn anything interesting about the Ogg format? Inadequate summaries aside - if this is the extent of the creator's ability to communicate about issues surrounding the format, no wonder it's suffering.

Re:tl;dr (3, Informative)

gknoy (899301) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005084)

Summary so far:

Many of the complaints levied against Ogg were not about its technical merits, but about its inadequate documentation -- a feature Matroska shares. Other complaints were about features of Ogg (such as mappings) which nearly every other container format has as well. ... I've only gotten about a quarter of the way through, so far.

Re:tl;dr (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005200)

Nearly every other container format+codec has exactly two bits that are codec dependent: an identifier (e.g. 'XVID' or "V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC" or a number) and binary private data/codec-specific init data/whatever you want to call it. Some codecs in some containers additionally define one bitstream, if the codec has multiple possible (h.264).

Timestamps, dimensions, aspect ratio, framerate, samplerate, etc. are stored in codec-independant ways in the container.

Ogg is not like that at all. The only thing it stores in a codec-independant manner is framing. Every other piece of information you might expect a container to have is stored in a codec-dependant manner. Even metadata!

I have no fucking clue why the creator does not see this as the problem that it is for everyone that tries to work with ogg.

Re:tl;dr (4, Interesting)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005300)

What possible use could you have for obtaining time stamps within a video stream that you cannot decode? As far as I'm concerned, a container format should provide enough information to determine two things:

  1. A CODEC identifier (magic/FOURCC)
  2. The physical length of each frame's data so that decoders that don't understand a particular CODEC can skip it.

Although there might be advantages of having other data encoded in a consistent fashion for people writing debug tools, when it comes to general software, as long as the CODEC software provides a standard set of accessor functions that return the data in a consistent way across all CODECs, it is by no means a requirement that they be stored in the same way, and in terms of the format's long-term flexibility, it is advantageous to allow the data to be stored in a codec-specific fashion.

Re:tl;dr (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005416)

A better question is: why should the demuxer care about whether or not you can decode a given codec?

There has been absolutely nothing new with regards to codec timestamps since MPEG-1 introduced the concept of out-of-order coding and B frames. ogg was developed nearly a decade after that. Thus, there is and was no reason whatsoever to make timestamps codec-dependant.

And you're ignoring the problem that with ogg you have to hunt down and read the spec of every single codec that you want to implement demuxing support for, and that it is impossible to have, say, a generic lightweight file analyzer that tells you duration, codecs used, metadata, samplerate, framerate, etc.

Re:tl;dr (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005712)

And you're ignoring the problem that with ogg you have to hunt down and read the spec of every single codec that you want to implement demuxing support for, and that it is impossible to have, say, a generic lightweight file analyzer that tells you duration, codecs used, metadata, samplerate, framerate, etc.

From the article:

"This is commonly asserted by detractors, but a combination of false and missing the point.

Ogg transport is based entirely on the page structure primitive, described accurately above. There are no other structures in the container transport itself. Higher level structures are built out of pages, not built into them. All Ogg streams conform to this page structure and all Ogg streams are parseable and demuxable without knowing anything about the codec. "Drop the needle" anywhere in an Ogg stream and start demuxing; you get the codec data out without knowing anything about the codec. You possibly won't know what exactly to do with that data without the codec mapping and the data is possibly useless without the codec anyway, but that's true of every container.

To avoid being accused of sidestepping the issue, I posit that the actual [if unstated] objection is that the Ogg container does not fully specify the granule position in the transport specification. Beyond a few requirements, a codec mapping defines the granule position spec for that codec's streams, not the Ogg spec. In theory, this would mean that without codec knowledge or some other place to find the granule position definition, a decoder missing the codec for a given stream would not be able to determine the timestamp on the stream that it is not capable of decoding anyway. In practice, the granule position mapping does in fact exist in the stream metadata within the Skeleton header[7] (as it would be in Matroska or NUT). Additionally, the Ogg design allows implementations to ignore the pretty design theory and just do things the way other containers do by building granule position calculation into the mux implementation.

There's specific considered reasons for the granulepos design which take some space to explain accurately. Because Mr. Rullgard also wrote a lengthy diatribe against Ogg timestamping[8], I'll leave the explanation for there and link to it here when my response to the other article is live."

Re:tl;dr (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005968)

>Ogg transport is based entirely on the page structure primitive, described accurately above. There are no other structures in the container transport itself. Higher level structures are built out of pages, not built into them.

And my argument is that a container should provide more than just framing. Hell, many codecs provide framing themselves and don't need container framing.

>All Ogg streams conform to this page structure and all Ogg streams are parseable and demuxable without knowing anything about the codec.

Only in the sense that you can find frame boundaries, not in the sense that you can do anything useful with them whatsoever. And indeed, the only thing you can do is drop and ignore pages for streams with codecs you don't recognize.

>and the data is possibly useless without the codec anyway, but that's true of every container.

Dead wrong. As a trivial example, remuxing.

And didn't you just say that you can parse streams without knowing about the codec?

>In practice, the granule position mapping does in fact exist in the stream metadata within the Skeleton header

Too bad that in practice, I've seen a skeleton header maybe once. And anything optional is guaranteed to be missing in many cases. Thus to demux a new codec you still have to find the codec spec, find the ogg mapping, write the granule demangler, write a parser for the codec headers, etc. instead of adding a single entry to a table like you would for sane containers.

>Additionally, the Ogg design allows implementations to ignore the pretty design theory and just do things the way other containers do by building granule position calculation into the mux implementation.

I'm not really sure what he's talking about here, but ogg certainly doesn't allow you to do like other containers do and store the unmangled timestamp.

Re:tl;dr (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32006226)

Too bad that in practice, I've seen a skeleton header maybe once. And anything optional is guaranteed to be missing in many cases. Thus to demux a new codec you still have to find the codec spec, find the ogg mapping, write the granule demangler, write a parser for the codec headers, etc. instead of adding a single entry to a table like you would for sane containers.

I think this speaks to your own inexperience more than anything else. Here's an ogg video with a Skeleton stream:

http://videos.videoonwikipedia.org/video/275/cell-phone-engineerguyogv [videoonwikipedia.org]

You can find many more with Skeleton streams at http://videos.videoonwikipedia.org [videoonwikipedia.org] or http://openvideo.dailymotion.com [dailymotion.com] or http://www.archive.org [archive.org] or many other sites. I can only conclude that you are not very knowledgeable about ogg usage in practice.

Re:tl;dr (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005944)

And you're ignoring the problem that with ogg you have to hunt down and read the spec of every single codec that you want to implement demuxing support for, and that it is impossible to have, say, a generic lightweight file analyzer that tells you duration, codecs used, metadata, samplerate, framerate, etc.

Ogginfo seems pretty lightweight. It tells me the duration, codecs used, metadata, samplerate, framerate, and more. I guess someone has already solved the problem for you. Here is a sample of its output run against Elephants Dream:

$ ogginfo Elephants_Dream.ogg

Processing file "Elephants_Dream.ogg"...

New logical stream (#1, serial: 1e05b679): type skeleton
New logical stream (#2, serial: 72ba3177): type theora
New logical stream (#3, serial: 30fa15ff): type vorbis
Theora headers parsed for stream 2, information follows...
Version: 3.2.1
Vendor: Xiph.Org libThusnelda I 20081201
Width: 426
Height: 240
Total image: 432 by 240, crop offset (0, 0)
Framerate 24/1 (24.00 fps)
Aspect ratio undefined
Colourspace: Rec. ITU-R BT.470-6 Systems B and G (PAL)
Pixel format 4:2:0
Target bitrate: 0 kbps
Nominal quality setting (0-63): 32
User comments section follows...
                ENCODER=ffmpeg2theora-0.24
Vorbis headers parsed for stream 3, information follows...
Version: 0
Vendor: Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20080501
Channels: 2
Rate: 48000

Nominal bitrate: 80.000000 kb/s
Upper bitrate not set
Lower bitrate not set
User comments section follows...
                ENCODER=ffmpeg2theora-0.24
Logical stream 1 ended
Vorbis stream 3:
                Total data length: 4986375 bytes
                Playback length: 10m:53.696s
                Average bitrate: 61.023779 kb/s
Logical stream 3 ended
Theora stream 2:
                Total data length: 30621851 bytes
                Playback length: 10m:53.791s
                Average bitrate: 374.698578 kb/s
Logical stream 2 ended

Re:tl;dr (2, Interesting)

Anpheus (908711) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006060)

It looks like it's depending on the information from each codec though. What happens if you don't have one of the codecs installed?

Re:tl;dr (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32006624)

Okay, I'll uninstall libtheora from my Fedora 12 desktop:

# rpm --nodeps -e libtheora-1.1.0-1.fc12.x86_64 libtheora-1.1.0-1.fc12.i686

Totem no longer plays Elephants_Dream.ogg because libtheora is not installed. It outputs a warning:

$ totem Elephants_Dream.ogg

(totem:8219): GStreamer-WARNING **: Failed to load plugin '/usr/lib64/gstreamer-0.10/libgsttheora.so': libtheoraenc.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Let's try ogginfo now:

$ ogginfo Elephants_Dream.ogg
Processing file "Elephants_Dream.ogg"...

New logical stream (#1, serial: 1e05b679): type skeleton
New logical stream (#2, serial: 72ba3177): type theora
New logical stream (#3, serial: 30fa15ff): type vorbis
Theora headers parsed for stream 2, information follows...
Version: 3.2.1
Vendor: Xiph.Org libThusnelda I 20081201
Width: 426
Height: 240
Total image: 432 by 240, crop offset (0, 0)
Framerate 24/1 (24.00 fps)
Aspect ratio undefined
Colourspace: Rec. ITU-R BT.470-6 Systems B and G (PAL)
Pixel format 4:2:0
Target bitrate: 0 kbps
Nominal quality setting (0-63): 32
User comments section follows...
                ENCODER=ffmpeg2theora-0.24
Vorbis headers parsed for stream 3, information follows...
Version: 0
Vendor: Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20080501
Channels: 2
Rate: 48000

Nominal bitrate: 80.000000 kb/s
Upper bitrate not set
Lower bitrate not set
User comments section follows...
                ENCODER=ffmpeg2theora-0.24
Logical stream 1 ended
Vorbis stream 3:
                Total data length: 4986375 bytes
                Playback length: 10m:53.696s
                Average bitrate: 61.023779 kb/s
Logical stream 3 ended
Theora stream 2:
                Total data length: 30621851 bytes
                Playback length: 10m:53.791s
                Average bitrate: 374.698578 kb/s
Logical stream 2 ended

Information output is the same. Reinstall libtheora:

# yum install libtheora.x86_64 libtheora.i686

And totem plays Elephants_Dream.ogg once again.

Re:tl;dr (3, Interesting)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005550)

As far as I'm concerned, a container format should provide enough information to determine two things:

Basically, what you just wrote is "there shouldn't be containers."

Is that really your position? I certainly can understand it. It has that quality to it that any hack can go ahead and start coding to handle it immediately, which is great. But checking with reality, we seem to have so many container formats because ID/LEN is just not enough for purposes.

Re:tl;dr (2, Insightful)

MrLint (519792) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005560)

I want to prepend my ignorance in this area, however one thing that occrs to me in your complaint is that isnt this really how the OSI model works? The higher level (container) has the info it needs to pass its payload along to the next level. http, being a payload in the data of IP, and so on. Now I cannot speak to if this makes sense in the contact of media storage, but parsing deep into the media itself would seem to be out of scope of a container, and then end up being a crutch that could break later for yet unimagined content.

Re:tl;dr (2, Insightful)

tgd (2822) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005810)

I wouldn't assume because the OSI model works that way means its the right model for a video container format.

And, given the plethora of systems out there that have had to add functionality to introspect higher layers while routing lower layers, I wouldn't even assume the OSI model is actually the right one for networking, either.

This matches my experience (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005532)

The best way to get documentation out of a project is trash talk it until a developer gets into such a frothy rage he explains it in a manner "even an idiot could understand." Used to do this all the time in the early years of Linux, worked like a charm :-)

Re:This matches my experience (1)

arkane1234 (457605) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005790)

Would the early years of Linux be when Ubuntu came out, in this case?
*ducks*

Re:tl;dr (-1, Troll)

Michael Kristopeit (1751814) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005102)

yeah, from the summary and the title of the response, it seems it does not disprove the previous claims, rather it just presents itself as a response for a responses sake.

Re:tl;dr (2, Informative)

fusiongyro (55524) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005170)

The article is itself basically a summary of the format. If you don't care enough to read the article, probably all you should be worried about is what your iPod will and won't play.

Re:tl;dr (-1, Troll)

EdZ (755139) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005340)

Is there, you know, a summary or something so I don't have to wade through that long fricking rant in order to actually learn anything interesting about the Ogg format?

Summary: The ogg container isn't that bad. Nobody actually uses it.

Re:tl;dr (1)

hardburn (141468) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006542)

Summary: certain uses require certain tradeoffs. Ogg tries to balance many different uses, and mostly succeeds. The original rant often cherry-picked which container formats it would compare Ogg against in a given context. Even so, Ogg often ends up comparing favorably to that container under real world conditions. The other FOSS Swiss Army Knife of container formats, Matroska, often does things the same way or comes out with similar performance in the end.

Really? (0, Redundant)

Goaway (82658) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005094)

You mean the creator of a file format thinks that his file format is good? This certainly is newsworthy!

Re:Really? (2, Funny)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005208)

Oh, it's far worse than that: one of his competitors thinks it's not a good format.

Re:Really? (4, Insightful)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005436)

And more importantly, they're wrong, in the eyes of its developer.

It's a cogent flame of his critics, but it also exposes what are plainly design differences-- and his critic's non-nuanced eye. You have to appreciate someone that can split hairs so finely when taking a set of arguments apart. I like thinkers.

Re:Really? (3, Insightful)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005680)

He didn't say it was good, he explained why it is good.

Well written, and informative, but... (4, Informative)

Dragoniz3r (992309) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005096)

... the last time we discussed this, didn't the consensus eventually become that ogg isn't a fun container to work with, despite the fact that the guy who wrote the rant about it was a moron for wanting to trim headers that contribute fractions of percents to the overall size of files? I know I personally have worked with ogg, and it was a pain in the ass, mostly because (as the author of the format admits) the documentation blows.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (5, Interesting)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005144)

Yeah.
Also, for some reason there seems to exist no player in the world that can skip or jump in a video inside an OGM container without severe slowdowns and pauses even on an Core i7. Something that does simply not happen for avi, mp4, mkv or even mov (which is more or less mp4).

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005210)

I'm not sure what crazy German fetish porn you are watching that does that, but I've never had that issue.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32006646)

It's standard, run of the mill crazy German fetish porn and I expect it to just work dammit!

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (4, Interesting)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005258)

I've noticed the same thing. MP4, MKV, AVI, etc. are instant, but ogv (ogm according to GSpot) has multi-second delays when seeking to specific parts of the video.

I must be doing something wrong... and yet it's the same for every media player I try.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (4, Informative)

EMN13 (11493) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005434)

As the article notes, .ogm isn't actually a normal ogg container, so the author isn't disputing issues with ogm (he calls it an ugly windows specific hack). And in any case, if you use a codec set to use few keyframes, you'll get poor seek performance in *any* container format - it's quite likely the issues you saw had everything to do with the encoding choices made and little with the (deprecated) ogm container.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005638)

ogm is ogg as in rfc 3533 is ogg. Seeking has the same constraints and problems.

The problem with ogm is that it basically defined new codec mappings without documenting them. Xiph never liked it because it allowed a way for patented codecs to be put in ogg.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (4, Interesting)

evilviper (135110) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005766)

And in any case, if you use a codec set to use few keyframes, you'll get poor seek performance in *any* container format - it's quite likely the issues you saw had everything to do with the encoding choices made and little with the (deprecated) ogm container.

Not at all. Every other format listed as having good seek performance has an INDEX. Ogg/Ogm does not. Lacking an index generally results in broken frames when seeking as well.

The are a couple efforts to get Ogg files indexed, but Xiph.org remains utterly indifferent, so you can expect it to remain an unsupported bastard step child like OGM, which is also only unofficial because Xiph can't be bothered with other people's needs.

Does MPEG-TS have indexes? (1)

thule (9041) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006486)

I don't have problem seeking DVD dumps and as far as I know, MPEG-TS does not have indexes -- it is a pure stream. In fact, you can seek in an MPEG-TS stream even if it is partially corrupted or incomplete.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2, Informative)

Jesus_666 (702802) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006608)

Except that TFA mentions they're likely to put an index in the next revision of Ogg.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2, Interesting)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005998)

And in any case, if you use a codec set to use few keyframes, you'll get poor seek performance in *any* container format - it's quite likely the issues you saw had everything to do with the encoding choices made and little with the (deprecated) ogm container.

That's quite possible. I'm just having trouble finding settings that let it be seekable, without torpedoing the quality.

Tons of keyframes does work, but the bitrate required goes up quite a bit.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (3, Informative)

Hatta (162192) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005746)

Have you tried it with MPlayer? I just tried it with an OGV [archive.org] from archive.org. Seeking was instantaneous.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2, Informative)

BikeHelmet (1437881) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005986)

Yes, I have. I can only conclude that I'm encoding it wrong.

But I seem capable of making streamable/seekable vids in other formats, so why is it so difficult with ffmpeg2theora?

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2, Interesting)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005756)

uh, OGM is not ogg. So of course you cant' help but not have problems with it. It's a horrible attempt at getting WMV to work in ogg, basically. Try OGG instead of OGM and what do you know! skipping and jumping works wonderfully!

Helps to read the article because then you'd actually know that.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (1)

Twinbee (767046) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005970)

Is this a problem with Ogg, or the media players implementations? Could this even theoretically be fixed with Ogg in its current state?

Afaik, usually, codecs have something called 'key frames' where the lower the step for each key frame, the quicker it is for the user to seek to any particular part of the video. The extreme case would be to have each frame as a key frame. This should allow instant random access of the video, but the resulting filesize will be bigger.

Doesn't Ogg have/support anything like that?

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32006432)

Neither it is a problem with OGM, the problem is OGM sucks.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005250)

What do you expect? It's "open source" so while that means it is terrible half baked crap to those of us with half a brain who use commercial software, to the freetards who inhabit slashdot it means it must be great no matter how many holes you poke in their pathetic arguments. You see the same thing with Linux, GIMP, etc. Every single piece of open source software is absolute garbage next to the closed source stuff it purportedly "competes" with, and yet if you went by what folks on slashdot say, you'd think open source programmers shat gold. Unfortunately for those of us who have to deal with it (usually by un-installing as fast as possible), open source developers only shit out crap code.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (-1, Offtopic)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005356)

What do you expect? It's "open source" so while that means it is terrible half baked crap to those of us with half a brain who use commercial software, to the freetards who inhabit slashdot it means it must be great no matter how many holes you poke in their pathetic arguments. You see the same thing with Linux, GIMP, etc. Every single piece of open source software is absolute garbage next to the closed source stuff it purportedly "competes" with, and yet if you went by what folks on slashdot say, you'd think open source programmers shat gold. Unfortunately for those of us who have to deal with it (usually by un-installing as fast as possible), open source developers only shit out crap code.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Considering the untold millions of systems in this world that are running open source software, and running it more efficiently, cost-effectively and functionally than their "closed-source counterparts", you are either completely ignorant of the subject, or have an agenda of some sort. I'm betting on the former, actually... you really sound like an idiot. In any event, if you're going to make sweeping statements like that, you need to either a. back them up or b. shut the fuck up. Take your pick.

I wish we could all vote to IP ban certain people.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (1)

Rennt (582550) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006046)

Don't feed crap trolls. The crafty ones can get you sometimes but there was no excuse for this.

If it wasn't for your response the moderation system would have made sure I, and thousands of other readers, would never had read the AC's post at all. It has already disappeared off the radar.

But you had to go and open a dialogue. You even quoted the whole thing! No offence man, but WTF were you thinking?

I do agree that it would be nice to ban everybody named "Anonymous Coward" though. I wish we could to a poll on that.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2)

Slotty (562298) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005268)

This was well written?

The authors response in no way enticed the audience to keep reading.

Informative yes... Well written I don't believe so. But his admission to poor documentation is a nice sign of humility you rarely see in today's world

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (5, Insightful)

Dragoniz3r (992309) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005306)

Certainly better written than Rullgard's hatchet-job. Maybe I'm just used to reading technical documentation (RFCs and the like), but I really dislike reading the flippant opinions of some hack with an axe to grind. Much prefer reading the technicalities of the topic and making up my own mind.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (1)

Slotty (562298) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005780)

Yes Rullgard's piece from the excerpts seemed to be technically incorrect. However I was simply trying to point out that the response piece imho was long winded and to convoluted to be effective.

And as other people point out there are some underlying issues in the format but if people don't like it they don't have to use it :)

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (0, Flamebait)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005848)

It's not well-written at all. He responds to obvious jokes with indignant corrections. For example, this one:

32.
            Generality
    33.

    34.
            Ogg, legend tells, was designed to be a general-purpose container
    35.
            format.

"Legend tells us"? Ogg is not a dramatic, unknowable mystery shrouded in the mists of time. I designed it. I'm alive and willing to answer any questions about the format. Allow me this opportunity to reiterate that Ogg was designed as a general purpose container.

(Sorry about the formatting-- he also formatted quotes from the original article like a 1975-era IBM line printer for some retarded reason.)

He has his knickers in a twist over an obvious joke intended to lighten-up the mood of the original article. It makes me sound like a humorless oversensitive prick from the very start. It doesn't help that he feels compelled to respond to things he has no debate over, like the format of the file header.

Anyway, I stopped reading after the first few pages. He's too uptight and protective to effectively defend the format.

(Cue the obvious: "how would anybody editing Slashdot articles know what 'well-written' looks like?" joke. At least the original article wasn't written by a humorless prick.)

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (1, Informative)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005938)

Since I'm on a bit of a soapbox, I'd also like to address this:

Detailed documentation (or the lack thereof) is vitally important, however it has little to do with the container design itself. Mr. Rullgard claims to establish that Ogg is badly flawed, not that it needs more documentation.

Not having adequate documentation *is a flaw*. I find it incredible that anybody working with file formats would argue otherwise.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (4, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006104)

It's a different kind of flaw, though. Rullgard was arguing that Ogg is inherently technically flawed. Arguing that it's technically fine but unusable due to a lack of documentation is a different argument.

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (2, Insightful)

Thinboy00 (1190815) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006492)

Where, exactly, is the boundary line between a file format and its documentation/specs?

Re:Well written, and informative, but... (0)

malloc (30902) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006268)

He has his knickers in a twist over an obvious joke intended to lighten-up the mood of the original article

Absolutely. Just like how you should laugh at the when the guy robbing you at knife-point says "do what I say, get the point".

Seriously, Monty was replying to an absolute hatchet job on something he'd put major work into. We should find it funny?

P.S. his quoting style was easy to read, yet you use it as an excuse for your bad formatting?

and at the end... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005124)

he goes "and that's why the Ogg format is awesome...bitch!" and deliberately drops the microphone a-la Chris Rock. The ogg format critic...dat muddafugga just got served, yo.

If you say something often enough... (-1, Offtopic)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005128)

...,some people will believe it. Just like those who perpetuate these lies, one political party in America used this tactic with the hope that it would stick. But unfortunately, time ran out!

Re:If you say something often enough... (0, Offtopic)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005224)

You mean all Political Parties Try to do this. Don't let your personal favor to an other political party make you think that you are not getting brainwashed too.

watch it... (1, Insightful)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005138)

The refutation has another advantage besides authoritativeness: it's far better written than the attack.

coughcoughADHOMINEM [wikipedia.org]

If you're going to make commentary about an argument, try not to use a logical fallacy when doing so...

Re:watch it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005242)

Uh, retard -- he didn't attack the person he attacked the written work.

Re:watch it... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005376)

Uh, retard -- he didn't attack the person he attacked the written work.

Probably he didn't read the definition.

Re:watch it... (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005490)

I think the original comment was implying that Monty's reply contained ad hominem attacks. It sort of did (pointing out that the person complaining had contributed to a competing design, thus at least implying a conflict of interest), but not in a fallacious way.

HTML5: The failure of the decade. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005148)

HTML5 will be looked upon as the greatest failure of the decade. Perfectly good and sensible standards like XHTML 2 and XForms were thrown out in favor of a hackjob by Apple, Google, Mozilla and Opera.

On one hand, Microsoft apparently has little interest in supporting HTML5. Nor should they, with their browser still holding 75% or more of most markets.

On the other, the "cooperation" among the proponents of HTML5 has been quite poor when it comes to video codecs and audio codecs. Then again, maybe we should be asking ourselves why the fuck we even need such support in our browsers.

In the future, I'll be proud to tell my peers, students, children and grandchildren that I was one of the first to call out HTML5 as being the failure that it is.

Re:HTML5: The failure of the decade. (0, Offtopic)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005270)

1: ok.

2: what does that have to do with this topic?

3: I have been complaining about html5 for the better part of 2 years.

4: I've had to shelve a few xhtml2 projects I had started when I heard the spec was being cancelled. I have reason to complain.

I would comment on this (-1, Troll)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005152)

But I haven't read the article yet, and I'm pretty sure the summary is wrong.. you know... past history, and all that...

Destroyed! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005160)

He goes through every bloody line and shows how ill-formed just about everything his detractor had to say about Ogg.

Very thorough.

The goal (4, Insightful)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005344)

Funny, I thought the goal was to get away from a patent encumbered format. Does Ogg work? Is it reasonably close to MP3/4? I believe the answer is yes to both. Now is Ogg as efficient as MP3/4, I cannot really comment because I am not that technically versed. If a standard HTML5 Video is adopted, it should and must be patent unencumbered. Rather than this nitpciking, I would love to see that same energy poured into improving Ogg. Like any design, Ogg can be improved upon to reach the same robustness of MP3/4.

Re:The goal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005590)

Open discussion is how designs get improved, not bashing out hundreds of lines of crap code.

Re:The goal (0)

jasonwc (939262) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005718)

Matroska is a non-patent encumbered container which is much more flexible and can with zero effort, support virtually any audio, video and subtitle format. Nobody opposes OGG because it's patent-free. They attack it because there are superior options - namely Matroska.

Re:The goal (4, Interesting)

kiwieater (1799016) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005796)

I've always found Ogg/Vorbis to be superior to MP3. Using semi-good gear(electrostatic headphones, for the geeky folk), I find Ogg at q6(average of ~192kbps) to be nearer to CD quality than an MP3 at any bitrate - it's transparent in 95%+ of tracks.. Some music isn't transparent on either format regardless of bitrate, but Ogg has always tended to give better quality for a given filesize. All in my experience...

Re:The goal (4, Insightful)

jasonwc (939262) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006186)

The problem with this argument is that it somewhat misses the point. MP3 is "good enough" for the vast majority of users at LAME V0/V2. I would venture a guess that 95-99% of persons couldn't ABX at V0 in perfect conditions (expensive amp, DAC, and high-end headphones), yet if we're talking about the use of a DAP and earbuds, it is quite clear qualtiy isn't relevant.

MP3's primary advantage is its effective standardization and universal support in all hardware and software. This single advantage far outweighs any benefit Ogg Vorbis can provide. An MP3 can be played on any DAP, on any operating system (with the right codecs), and all music software. It's therefore the preferred lossy sharing format. On the large music trackers, Vorbis makes up fewer than 1% of lossy downloads by file size and # of downloads. MP3 is the clear preference.

The fact is that, while Ogg Vorbis, may be better than MP3 quality-wise at V0 or 320 CBR, this is not the main point of lossy audio. If your primary concern is quality and archival, you shouldn't use any lossy format. You should use FLAC - it is open source and has superior error detection features (MD5/CRC for each frame, use with Accuraterip to verify any disk).

I use FLAC on my desktop and only download EAC rips with 100% logs, or try to, at least. This ensures that my downloads are "perfect rips", and the encoding process has not reduced quality at all. With a single click, I can verify my FLACs against the Accuraterip database to ensure they are perfect.

No lossy format provides this benefit. If I want to put the music on my iPod, I can convert it quickly with my Core i7 (45 seconds an album). I can convert my entire collectoin in several hours.

So, why use OggVorbis over FLAC?

Re:The goal (1)

Yaur (1069446) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006438)

Vorbis is better than MP3 and Ogg was more or less designed to contain Vorbis so it does it isn't surprising that it works well together where it fails is trying to use it as general purpose container format.

Re:The goal (1)

caseih (160668) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006534)

Can't blame you for not reading the article, since it was dry. But if you would read the article you'd know that you're wrong. ogg was not designed specifically for ogg vorbis. It was designed as a generic container for all sorts of streams, right from the beginning. Before you post next time, please consider whether what you are saying is actual fact or just something you made up based on what you thought you knew.

Denials and Belief (0, Troll)

gringer (252588) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005450)

Earnest falsehoods left unchallenged risk being accepted as fact

And emphatic denials risk a stronger belief in the denied thing.

Re:Denials and Belief (1)

losfromla (1294594) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005636)

This was not an emphatic denial. It was a thorough, albeit boring, and complete negation of incorrect assertions.

THIS IS EMPHATIC!!!

refuted? (-1, Offtopic)

MoFoQ (584566) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005472)

refuted? that's just being overly polite...
To give an example....a rogue nation launches a nuke...and we use one bullet to throw that nuke off-course and nuke them with their own incompetently built nuke.

Or holding a mirror in front of an ugly brat and they scare themselves to death....

in the gaming world..."pwned" and "gg n00b" come to mind. (in tf2, you airblast stickies back at the demoman and it takes him and a few of his friends out too)

in Penny Arcade, fruitfucker goes to a farmer's market....during fruit season....

in Slashdot....Cmdr Taco....yea...'nuff said.

either way, it's an interesting read...for one...I learned something today....*BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*

Re:refuted? (1)

MoFoQ (584566) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005872)

dunno how it's offtopic....

anyways...here's what I learned (unlike Comedy Central)....Ogg isn't ".OGM" (a now-defunct bastard child/fork), it's got features that Matroska has and more, it's got error-detection...MP4 can't do live....etc.

man...must say though...I had a good laugh when I saw the line: "...wholesale dismantling..."

I only wish there would be more Flash media players that supported it (I know there's a haxe-based Ogg Vorbis decoder [barelyfocused.net] out there though...wish it was developed on more and would do video as well)

OSS dev fails to see flaws, news at 11 (0)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005580)

I've got a lot of respect for a lot of OSS programmers, however they seem to fail to know how to respond on a non technical level. it's like the local computer geek spouting about the technical reasons his N64 is better then a SEGA - no one is going to give a shit and the other nerds have already made up their minds, so he won't do anything to sway them.

Re:OSS dev fails to see flaws, news at 11 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005674)

I've got a lot of respect for a lot of OSS programmers, however they seem to fail to know how to respond on a non technical level. it's like the local computer geek spouting about the technical reasons his N64 is better then a SEGA - no one is going to give a shit and the other nerds have already made up their minds, so he won't do anything to sway them.

Yeah right. According to your analogy, he should just answers "NO U!" to an argumentation perceived as a 'technical proof of the OGG container inferiority'.

Technical argumentation are refuted by technical argumentations, unless you want to look like a fucking moron. And TFA is talking about multimedia stream containers, not codec quality.

So TL;DR : NO U !

Re:OSS dev fails to see flaws, news at 11 (2, Funny)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006144)

You're wrong, but instead of pointing out why, I'll just note that my teeth and hairstyle are better than yours, and that my opinion is the opinion of a proven winner. Only disagreeable people would disagree with me!

(This comment is known to cause cancer in the state of California.)

Ogg format considered not as good as MPEG (3, Insightful)

kegon (766647) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005600)

From the article:

When Xiph started out in the early ninties, MPEG was hardly dominant.

When MPEG-1 started it closely followed H.261 [wikipedia.org] . H.261 was very well written. Back in 1994 when Xiph started, MPEG-1 had already been going 6 years [wikipedia.org] .

Ogg is full of strange fields and difficult to read structures. The author of the criticism is right to question it, especially when Ogg used similar fields but changed the names. There was never any need to change terminologies. H.261 and MPEG-1 were well written standards but not freely available and included patented technologies. The "not freely available" means that you have to buy it, not that it's secret.

If Xiph wanted to produce a free standard for video coding they could easily have adopted the same terminologies and similar structures, defining their own versions of them and recommending unpatented technologies. Instead they chose their weird terminology and rushed to come out with something different without spending the time to work out how difficult it would be for users to implement and what quality it would give. H.261 and MPEG were backed up by masses of research by companies and universities of which much was freely available in journals and conference proceedings.

The idea that "MPEG was hardly dominant" is the thought of someone who either didn't do his homework at the time or a revisionist. VCD (created 1993) was massively popular in the second half of the nineties, or doesn't that count ?

From the summary:

it's far better written than the attack.

I wish it had been. If you want to refute a rant, pick some illustrative points and clearly answer them. Don't pick apart the text, all of it, sentence by sentence. Fancy colouring and highlighting don't make it better written.

Re:Ogg format considered not as good as MPEG (4, Interesting)

Haeleth (414428) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006224)

VCD (created 1993) was massively popular in the second half of the nineties

Really? I don't think I ever saw a single VCD on a store shelf. I recall they existed, and I think I even watched one once, but basically they were a brief fad that completely failed to make a measurable dent in the VHS market and rapidly disappeared without a trace. That's not what I'd call "massively popular".

If you want to refute a rant, pick some illustrative points and clearly answer them.

That is exactly the wrong thing to do. If you don't answer every point, then your opponents will simply pick out the points you omitted and claim that your failure to refute them proves that they are valid.

Fancy colouring and highlighting don't make it better written.

Who said they did? What makes it better-written is the higher quality of the prose. The supporting references and the real-world measurements help, too.

Re:Ogg format considered not as good as MPEG (1)

teknomage1 (854522) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006338)

VCD is still popular in international markets. VCD just never made it here in the States.

Re:Ogg format considered not as good as MPEG (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006474)

VCD (created 1993) was massively popular in the second half of the nineties

Really? I don't think I ever saw a single VCD on a store shelf.

Your experiences don't really define the popularity of a format. It never took off in North America but they were very popular in Asia, with more than half of Chinese homes containing a VCD player at one point.

It still doesn't address many real world problems (5, Informative)

pslam (97660) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005606)

My rant with Ogg is not so much the minute details of the format itself but that it works badly in a few common real world cases:

  • Resizing metadata. It's stored at the beginning, so resizing the metadata requires moving the majority of the file around (or rewriting it).
  • Metadata growing across a page boundary (64KB). Not unlikely if you're storing anything substantial such as album art. I know, that's slightly abusing it, but it's convenient to go there and it's common practice. The trouble is this affects the page numbering, requiring every page in the stream to be renumbered, and then every page including its contents to have its CRC recalculated. Very expensive.
  • No index. Seriously, why can't we have an index? It doesn't have to be at the beginning of stream - the end is fine too. Which leads me to...
  • Random access video across a high latency link. Think that's uncommon? What about cell phones playing a web-hosted video, where 1000ms+ is the norm? Or even laptops with a 3G access dongle? An index (even a small one) mitigates the issue, even if placed at the end of stream.
  • Mandatory per-page CRC forces low-latency streaming to use single packet per page. Demux cannot continue before an entire page is received, which increases latency by the number of packets in a page (minus 1). Per-packet or even no CRC would be more appropriate.

I know it's all been said before, but these are pretty common cases and Ogg isn't great when you have to deal with them. Everything else is nit-picking. I'm not a fan of the minute details of the format either, to be honest, but the above are real world examples of where it falls a little short. I should add that none of these issues make it unusable in any of those situations: just annoying.

Re:It still doesn't address many real world proble (1)

Akoman (559057) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006086)

Indexing and seeking over low-latency connections is discussed in this piece. He specifically cedes this point and I *think* transOgg may address it.

Re:It still doesn't address many real world proble (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32006244)

  • Mandatory per-page CRC forces low-latency streaming to use single packet per page. Demux cannot continue before an entire page is received, which increases latency by the number of packets in a page (minus 1). Per-packet or even no CRC would be more appropriate.

Would you like to clarify this? A packet is split into segments, and a page encapsulates one or more segments. You seem to be confusing packets and pages, as it is normally one or more pages per packet, not the other way around.

first poSt (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32005768)

MPEG-LA bad mouthing? (2, Insightful)

bit01 (644603) | more than 4 years ago | (#32005774)

Just how much money is MPEG-LA making on their patent pool? How much are they spending on bad mouthing OGG to preserve/increase their income?

Treat any criticism of proprietary product competitors with a very large grain of salt.

Particularly against free competitors since it's legally safer as they often don't have the legal resources to fight half-truths and innuendo.

Good to see Monty's refutation.

---

Anonymous company communication is unethical and can and should be highly illegal. Company legal structures require accountability.

Re:MPEG-LA bad mouthing? (2, Insightful)

Blazewardog (1339197) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006256)

People aren't arguing to use mp4 over ogg (at least most aren't). They are arguing to use Matroska instead. Matroska is also a patent free container that is more flexible, can hold any stream, and is apparently much nicer to work with.

In a nutshell (2, Funny)

iris-n (1276146) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006010)

Mans Rullgard:

"Ogg considered harmful"

Monty Montgomery:

""Ogg considered harmful" considered harmful"

Reminds me of an Albert Einstein quote: (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#32006656)

From a letter about the theory of general relativity to Hermann Weyl, from 1916-11-23. Here is my amateurish translation:

“While the theory has many enemy [sic] for the time being, I take comfort in the following circumstance: the otherwise determined mean thinking strength of the supporters outmatches that of the opponents by a tremendous amount.”
(“Wenn die Theorie einstweilen noch viel [sic] Gegner hat, so tröstet mich der folgende Umstand: die anderweitig ermitte mittlere Denkstärke der Anhänger übertrifft diejenige der Gegner um ein Gewaltiges!”)

(I dug this one out myself. The letters are available online. And: Yes, I added the “[sic]”. :)

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>