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iPhone SDK Agreement Shuts Out HyperCard Clone

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the equal-opportunity-rejection dept.

Iphone 610

Halo1 writes "Demonstrating it's not just about Flash, Apple has officially rejected for the first time another alternative iPhone development environment following its controversial iPhone SDK Agreement changes. Even though RunRev proposed to retool its HyperCard-style development environment to directly expose all of the iPhone OS's APIs, Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal. The strength of RunRev's business case, with a large-scale iPad deployment project in education hinging on the availability of its tool, does not bode well for projects that have less commercial clout. Salient point: at last February's shareholders' meeting, Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it.'"

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DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242602)

Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.

People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242662)

Marketing. It's the only reason why Apple is able to do this. They are trend setters, everyone else just follows their path!

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (3, Insightful)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243330)

That, and the fact they don't have anywhere near a monopoly or even a plurality on the mobile computer market. But that's just a minor thing compared to marketing, of course.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243360)

they're lack of a monopoly is what makes it legal but it doesn't make it any more right

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (5, Insightful)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242706)

It was a similar situation with 3G, copy and paste, and a plethora of other features that were added well after the fact. The fanboys claimed that they didn't want all of that. 3G drained the battery, copy and paste complicated the UI, etc. It's all about the Reality Distortion Field being pumped up to levels of recockulousness.

The metamorphosis is complete! (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242980)

Steve Jobs has turned into a megalomaniac who is driven completely by business.

I am not even sure if this is metamorphosis. I think this would have a lot earlier had Apple been as successful as Micrsosft turned out to be. We are just finding out what assholes the CEO and the company are now.

Even after this, I can still understand why those who want to be cool and hip go crazy for apple products. What I do not understand is the /. community, full of geeks, don't get this. Apple has turned into everything a geek does not want.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (2, Informative)

jcr (53032) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243096)

3G drained the battery

It did. Apple added 3G to the iPhone when lower-power transceivers became available.

-jcr

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (2, Informative)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243560)

The fanboys claimed that they didn't want all of that... copy and paste complicated the UI, etc.

Actually the "fanboys" said Apple would add cut n paste when they'd worked out a good UI for it. And they did. The best cut n paste UI of any mobile device.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1, Insightful)

Zarf (5735) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242734)

Microsoft would never be that stupid. That's why they owned most of the PC market right up until the PC became irrelevant. At this point the only thing that matters is if your platform "does the web"

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243106)

Damn! The PC is irrelevant? When did this happen? Is it too late to sell all of mine? "Cloud Computing", slates, pads, etc. are all simply the latest flavors of the week. If you truly believe that the PC is going to become a niche product then I have a bridge in Alaska to sell to you.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1, Flamebait)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243250)

If you truly believe that the PC is going to become a niche product then I have a bridge in Alaska to sell to you.

I'd argue that the PC already has become a niche product among, for example, video gamers.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1, Flamebait)

jeffmeden (135043) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243462)

As a modern adult, I can attest to this. I even enjoy a good video game now and then, and still have a hard time spending money on a desktop PC considering I have a functional laptop and smartphone that both "do web". The desktop PC is very close (if not already arrived at) a niche for enthusiasts; laptops are simply easier and cheaper for the mainstream than the equivalent desktop. Just look at the trend of laptops vs desktops being sold. And soon, we will be saying the laptop has gone to the productivity niche and the tablet/smartphone/whatever is the new 'mainstream computing device'. It's what happens to every technology; eventually the fundamental design becomes obsolete as change takes place.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243574)

A laptop isn't a PC?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

shawn(at)fsu (447153) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243542)

I don't see business/offices/universities/libraries/etc getting rid of all their PC's just yet. I guess you could argue about what makes up a personal computer. Desktops are, laptops are, netbooks are. I don't think PCs are out I think more devices are picking up traits of PC's. The battery usage meter on my Droid would show that I use applications more than the phone (which could also be considerd an app)

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243570)

I don't see business/offices/universities/libraries/etc getting rid of all their PC's just yet.

But I would find it sad if you had to be a business/office/university/library/etc in order to qualify to buy a PC. You already have to be one to qualify for a console devkit.

I guess you could argue about what makes up a personal computer. Desktops are, laptops are, netbooks are.

The cryptographic lockdown is the difference between a computer like a netbook and an appliance like an iPad.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

E IS mC(Square) (721736) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243210)

WTF? PC are already no more relevant? Oh.. I see.. Which future year you are from?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

dskzero (960168) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243424)

The PC isn't irrelevant. And it won't ever be irrelevant.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (2, Funny)

jittles (1613415) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243484)

Wow I need to get out of mom's basement more often. When did this happen? Does that mean we're not on 1st Edition D&D now, too?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (5, Insightful)

Amarantine (1100187) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242784)

Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.

Well, good thing this isn't about desktop OS's, then, isn't it? In fact, coding for OS X is free and unrestricted, just as with Windows. On the other hand... You know that for Windows Mobile 7, apps need Microsoft's approval, don't you?

People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242992)

Well, good thing this isn't about desktop OS's, then, isn't it? In fact, coding for OS X is free and unrestricted, just as with Windows.

Yes, as long as Apple continues to make the iMac and MacBook and doesn't try to pitch the iPad as a replacement for them. The problem is that while most PC makers have a small (10"), medium (13"), and desktop replacement (15-17") laptop, Apple makes iPad instead of a MacBook mini. Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Funny)

mrsteveman1 (1010381) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243370)

Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL

The proper name is maxiPad.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

Nethead (1563) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243402)

Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL.

I did try to imagine this and found that there was no realistic way it would vaguely affect my life one way or another.

What else to you have?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243000)

A game console is an appliance, not a platform. In theory iPhone/Windows Mobile 7 based smartphones could be platforms but Apple/Microsoft insist on keeping them strictly managed appliances.

I suspect they do this for support reasons because of the retard factor (i.e. my phone doesn't work because I installed some stupid shit) but really, I think we're getting beyond that now. The bridge has been built and the spark is in the minds of developers. A smartphone is a computer you wear on your hip, you should be able to install whatever you want on it WITHOUT violating DRM/End User License Agreement, etc.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (5, Insightful)

BlueKitties (1541613) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243010)

The problem is that the iPhone and iPad are becoming more or less general computing platforms. This isn't a matter of locking down a single, narrow media device, but a broad multi-purpose system. The iPad is a hell-ouv-lot more than a game console -- it has the potential to completely replace a laptop, depending on the user's needs. Apple is getting a foot-hold on our everyday computing needs, so when they lock down such devices they gain an unbelievable amount of control. If tomorrow, we all switched to Apple devices, we would literally have a technology Big Brother. It's not just a buzz phrase at this point, it's how Apple operates. They think they know best, and they are willing to use their power to get their way. Now, that doesn't mean it would be the end of the world or anything, but it would be a sad day for the tech industry. But hey, we can argue all we want online, I vote with my wallet (i.e. I will never buy anything with an Apple logo.) That is, at least, until I don't have much choice.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243188)

I don't give a damn if I need Apple's permission to sell apps in their store. As has been beaten to death here, it is their store. My problem is with them restricting 3rd party installations. If Windows takes the same route with Mobile 7 and doesn't allow manual installs then they'll be just as evil as Apple. This is tantamount to you being told that you can only purchase MP3s from iTunes despite the fact that your device is perfectly capable of handling music from a variety of sources. Jobs is simply afraid that if he gives consumers a choice it will undermine the lock-in that he is trying so desperately to complete.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

E IS mC(Square) (721736) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243238)

I get it. It's like defending a murder by pointing out at all the people the murder DID NOT kill!? Brilliant!

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243274)

You know that for Windows Mobile 7, apps need Microsoft's approval, don't you?

Do you mean to say that Microsoft is now going to force developers to publish through its app store and nothing else? I did not know that. Citation needed please.

InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (4, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243338)

Do you mean to say that Microsoft is now going to force developers to publish through its app store and nothing else?

This appears correct.

I did not know that. Citation needed please.

From this InformationWeek article [informationweek.com] : "All apps must be approved by Microsoft, and can only be distributed via the Windows Marketplace for Mobile."

Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243434)

Do you mean to say that Microsoft is now going to force developers to publish through its app store and nothing else?
This appears correct.
I did not know that. Citation needed please.
From this InformationWeek article [informationweek.com]: "All apps must be approved by Microsoft, and can only be distributed via the Windows Marketplace for Mobile."

Are they smoking crack? The openness was the only reason some people have stuck with Winmobile.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (3, Insightful)

Stick32 (975497) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243300)

Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!

Yeah, tell me about it!!! And just like Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo I can't use cross-platform development to.... oh wait...

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

Nathanbp (599369) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243482)

Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!

There's plenty of complaining about that too. Have you somehow missed the many articles on Slashdot about homebrew for the Nintendo Wii and DS? And the complaining about Sony taking away Linux for the PS3? And I'm pretty sure we had at least one cheering Microsoft for allowing indie development the XBox 360, as well as a million articles about running Linux on the XBox.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243584)

Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!

That's right!

And in all of those cases, the problem is the DMCA which makes it criminal to use the device you own as you see fit when it goes against perceived interests of corporate cartels.

None of these surface issues would have any legitimate weight if the DMCA didn't criminalize "tinkering."

Find something better to do (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242788)

Your incessant first post trolling in every story about Linux or Apple is extremely tiresome and I find the way your moronic threads often come to dominate the comments to be disgusting.

Find something better to do with all your fucking free time, sopssa.

Re:Find something better to do (1)

spun (1352) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243074)

QQ more, n00b.

spun is a homosexual nigger jewish paedophile. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243454)

gobk2sleep, oldfag

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (-1, Offtopic)

Anon-Admin (443764) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242824)

mod this guy up. he is 100% correct!

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (2, Insightful)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242868)

Mod that guy down, 100% wrong - this is not about coding desktop apps, which are totally unrestricted on OS X.

This is about phone development, where MS and Apple's approaches are markedly similar.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

rsborg (111459) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242834)

Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio... But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft [albion.com] , second, I don't think this move is cool either, but it's totally legal.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

BoberFett (127537) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243156)

Not yet, but they're trying.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243226)

Would I be allowed to drive slowly down a street taking pictures of kids at a park as long as I wasn't a convicted pedophile? I don't care about Microsoft's past, what I care about is the frightening path that Apple is trying to force technology to follow in the present and the future.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243526)

Would I be allowed to drive slowly down a street taking pictures of kids at a park as long as I wasn't a convicted pedophile?

Yes. You might get some evil looks and wind up having a discussion with the police but I'm not aware of any law against taking pictures of people in public places.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243476)

It's only a matter of time now.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Informative)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243562)

First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft [albion.com]

Neither is Microsoft a 'convicted monopolist' - the case against them was a civil action, you can only be convicted of something in a criminal court. The term 'convicted monopolist' is nothing more than a slashdot marketing term.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Interesting)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242854)

See, I think (and I think some people on here might agree) is that yes: We don't like the business practices of Apple. But somewhere deep down inside, we want to see what will happen when Apple does these kinds of things. We're silently hoping that it shuns developers to other platforms, thus weakening Apple's product as a whole, and we can finally say "I told you so" when their stocks drop from bad ideas such as this.

On the other hand, we also like the idea of "Apple has the freedom to do what they want with their product" (notice that I cannot purchase a Microsoft Desktop, they don't have the full verticle control thing going on). It seems if we press on locking them down, the whole system will be locked down, and thats not good for everyone.

So we give them a bit of leniency because they are kind of our guinea pig. Big enough to try things out, but we don't have to depend on them.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (4, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243336)

Actually I don't really care.
Apple isn't a monopoly and makes some really good stuff.
As a developer I don't care as I can pick what platform I want to work on.

I gave up passionately caring about a platform when the Amiga failed to get any traction when it was better in every way than the PC was.

Apple, Microsoft, Google, HP, Intel, and AMD are all just companies that I buy products from when I like them. They do not pay my bills.

Software patents "There should be no such thing" I care about.
The DMCA "stupid and harmful" I care about.
The RIAA and MPAA acting like an arm of the government I care about.

Apple telling people they can not sell iPorn or write in Flash for the iPhone? Who cares? Pick a different platform folks. These rules do not have the force of law and really have nothing to do with your rights or freedoms.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (3, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242896)

You mean like they do on the XBox and the Zune?
And we really do not know what they will do with WIndows Phone 7... Hey they took out copy and paste and multitasking to copy the iPhone so who knows.
And yes people are crabbing to high heaven about Apple. The thing is the answer is simple. Buy and Android phone or a Palm WebOS phone like my wife and I did.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243166)

You mean like they do on the XBox and the Zune?

Could you elaborate on which development tools that produce valid code for XBox and Zune that MS have banned?

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (3, Insightful)

abigor (540274) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242944)

You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.

This article is about what are essentially embedded devices, which Apple (for better or worse) sees as a different set of use cases for consumers and, as a consequence, developers.

No MacBook mini (2, Interesting)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243062)

You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.

Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.

Re:No MacBook mini (1)

bushing (20804) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243334)

You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.

Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.

Why do you need a "MacBook mini"?

Re:No MacBook mini (2, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243498)

You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.

Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.

Why do you need a "MacBook mini"?

For the same reason that anyone else needs a 10" laptop: limited physical space. I seem to remember that either AT&T or a netbook maker ran a TV ad about a netbook (in flight mode) fitting into a coach airplane seat, while the seat in front got in the way of a larger laptop's screen.

And consider the "Homepage" at the top of your post. I use my Dell Mini 10 to develop homebrew games for at least one game console.

Re:No MacBook mini (0, Offtopic)

Doctor_Jest (688315) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243410)

I can find one on Dell's site. :) Their Mini10 is a marriage made in heaven for OS X. Or at least it used to be. (Yes, it violates the EULA... big deal.)

Try developing anything useful on "Windows 7 Starter Edition" (on most netbooks that aren't running Linux.) I'm sure it's ill-suited for the task, as it's a crippled copy of Windows 7.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1, Insightful)

Princeofcups (150855) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243056)

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

Repeat after me. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243382)

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

Repeat after me. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly.

Then we all get delicious Kool-Aid? Tell me more!

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243598)

Neither is Coca Cola a monopoly, and yet they have been restricted from anti-competative actions for decades.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (2, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243208)

To be fair, Microsoft, like Apple, has one platform of each type(actually, two of each type; because "monolithic and slightly confused" is how MS rolls).

You've got your PCs running Windows. With the exception of kernel driver signing requirements on 64-bit Vista and later, you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want.

Then you have the Xbox360. Here, you can either pay nontrivial money to be Microsoft's special development buddy, and do native development and have your binaries cryptographically blessed, or you can pay substantially less money to be one of the XNA-based 'app store' developers. More accessible to small timers; but your applications still only run by the power and mere pleasure of MS.

Since this is Microsoft, and they are huge, you also have the divide between WinCE/WinMo6 and lower and Windows Phone 7. The former is largely open, from the application perspective. The latter, Microsoft has said, will basically be a .net walled garden, along the lines of the App Store.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243258)

More trolling from TripMasterFucktard, Ballmer's Cock Jock in person.

Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows.

1: Microsoft is a convicted monopolist. Apple is not.
2: Want to help me set up Eclipse with GCC to develop for Zune or Xbox360? Oh wait ...
3: Does Apple limit what tools you can use for Mac OS X development?

Fucking retard. Don't let facts get in the way of your trolling eh?

People also always cry about how consoles are locked down.

I have yet see one of your self indulgent psychotic posts flame MS for locking down Zune, WM7 or XBox360. But hey, keep flaming Apple. Fucktard.

But hey, keep using your sockpuppet to mod yourself up, fucktard. That's all you are capable of. Well, that and trolling idiot slashdot moderators who think that midnless apple flaming posts deserve +insightful or +informative. Goddamn asshole moderators .

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243416)

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

[Troy McClure voice] Hi Mr. Jobs, Wrong Size Glass here. You may not know me, but I'm an Apple fanboi, karma whore and sarcastic twit ... and even I think this is a royal asshattian maneuver by Apple. /disgust

I understand the whole 'Flash' thing. Most of it is performance and stability, the rest of it is payback. Fine. I understand that karma is a pendulum of vengeance and right now it's coming back at Adobe. But RunRev? Even a retooled RunRev? WTF, Apple? HyperCard is so Apple that Apple should be letting these guys in the back door just for sentimental reasons. Steve Jobs would like a 'HyperCard for the iPad' ... as long as it's written in XCode? Wouldn't apps written in a new HyperCard violate the SDK Agreement? No? Not yet.

Karma's pendulum will swing back in your direction Apple. Don't forget who you stepped on on your way back up the ladder of corporate success.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243480)

It's not.

For Apple to continue shooting themselves in the foot does not make an intelligent business decision. Yes there are levels at which lockout are valid and good, however the availability to create a new sector of demand w/ the iPad only happens once. Apple ignoring that fact will allow someone else to take advantage, all for the purpose of SDK lockout.

Sorry Steve, but opportunity is passing you by.

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243524)

Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows.

It would probably be similar to the outcry if Apple banned other development environments from the Mac.

Now, imagine if Microsoft had such a ban for WINCE or Windows Mobile development. The reaction would be about the same as Apple's getting.

-jcr

Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243664)

But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

Where do you get the idea that anyone approves of Apple's rejection of alternative development environments on its handhelds? Sure, a lot of people hate most Flash implementations and what Flash has done to website design, but I've never heard speak in favor of Apple's policies toward software development.

So they created a product, based on another (2, Insightful)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242634)

product which pretty much everyone knew wouldn't get approved with the changes ... and now we're surprised?

This might have been news when the changes were introduced, now its just:

Duh, you knew you were treading on thin ice before you even submitted it.

Re:So they created a product, based on another (2, Insightful)

sopssa (1498795) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242738)

I'm quite sure it took longer time to create that product than 2-3 weeks. That was when Apple announced the change. Adobe didn't know anything about it either, since they just before released their new Flash suite that allowed you to cross-compile to iPhone. Those who bought Adobe's product for that reason must love it now, and theres nothing Adobe can do about it.

Re:So they created a product, based on another (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242890)

This isn't just some random product that disobeys the new rules imposed by St. Steve. This is a re-implementation of a key piece of early Apple desktop software.

This is much like Apple stabbing Adobe in the back but without any of the alleged acting out from the relevant 3rd party.

Minding your manners won't help. Don Jobs will whack you too.

Re:So they created a product, based on another (2, Informative)

BarryJacobsen (526926) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243378)

product which pretty much everyone knew wouldn't get approved with the changes ... and now we're surprised?

This might have been news when the changes were introduced, now its just:

Duh, you knew you were treading on thin ice before you even submitted it.

No, this is a company with a business plan that said they would re-do their product to output ONLY for iPhone/iPad (read: not be cross-compilable for other platforms), use 100% CocoaTouch (meaning they look and function like every other app on the platform), guarantee they'd keep pace with the SDK 100%, and have the apps be literally indistinguishable from apps written in Objective-C. And Steve Jobs said no to this business plan.

To recap: they had a product before that was acceptable; with no notice, Apple changed their policies; they offered to redo their entire product to be inline with what the supposed spirit of these changes was; they were told nope, can't do that.

RunRev (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242720)

The strength of RunRev's business case, with a large-scale iPad deployment project in education hinging on the availability of its tool, does not bode well for projects that have less commercial clout.

What does an old-school rapper / producer / d.j / reverend have to do with apple development.

Oh wait. I dyslexia have. My bad.

question (0)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242792)

Forgive my ignorance (or is it iGnorance) on the matter, I have no idea about iMacs and iPotatoes, but here is my question:

Is it even possible to have an alternative to the iTunes provider? I mean is it possible to have another site allowing iPhones and iMaxiPads users to download whatever software they want on their fabulous toys?

Re:question (2, Informative)

alen (225700) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242880)

yes

if you are a mega corp and buy the idevice enterprise SDK license than you can load your internally developed apps directly to idevices. still a PITA to deploy to thousands of devices compared to running BES. but that is the state of mobile devices today. blackberries suck as devices. idevices are nice but Apple has no idea how to support corporate customers. Android is still too immature and has no corporate IT support

Re:question (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243394)

WebOS is going the be the corporate internet appliance OS of choice. HP didnt buy Palm just to sit on it.

Re:question (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243672)

Apple has no idea how to support corporate customers.

I'm still waiting for Wake-On-Lan for Apple hardware. And if you're an Apple Apologist (Applologist) reading this, don't feed me that line about Wake-On-Lan for sleep-mode, and "what I want is really 'Power-On-Lan' (boot up from power off state with magic packet)". Only Apple Xserves have true WOL, and Apple refuses to add the feature to iMacs, Mac Pros, Mac minis, Macbooks, etc. And no, user education to not turn off the computers doesn't work (although replacing shutdown functions with reboot functions does trick some of them).

Re:question (0, Flamebait)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242910)

Did you really want an answer or did you just want to show off all your clever i* jokes?

Re:question (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243140)

Stop iFlamebaiting here!

Re:question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243252)

is it possible to have another site allowing iPhones and iMaxiPads users to download whatever software they want on their fabulous toys?

Not without jailbreaking, which Apple claims is in violation of DMCA.

It boils down to this - while Apple should and do have whatever rights they want to control their online store and write whatever software they feel like (provided they don't go afoul anti-competitive laws - and that's a different issue altogether), so should the owners of the devices. But owners are at a disadvantage because corporate cartels paid for a law that is given a bigger hammer than the U.S. constitution itself.

So jailbreaking is an "underground" operation which vast majority of users will not be comfortable, willing, or able to go through. So the whining that you hear surfacing up is why Apple approves this app vs rejects the other app, why Apple allows one thing in the SDK and refuses another. All these are surface issues, more like symptoms, that don't really expose the root of the problem.

Re:question (1)

jeillah (147690) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243264)

If you jailbreak your iDevice you can get apps using Cydia. I think it is a Mac only application though.

Re:question (2, Informative)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243284)

It depends on what kind of functionality you want. With my iPod classic I use foobar [foobar2000.org] on the iPod itself as a portable application to manage my music collection. My iPod touch is completely jailbroken and can install 3rd party apps via iTunes. But as another poster correctly pointed out, unless you're willing to devote a lot of time and potentially brick your device, you're pretty much stuck in the walled-garden.

" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (1)

gbrandt (113294) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242828)

Do you actually believe that Steve Jobs personally does all rejection......really?

Re:" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (1)

Halo1 (136547) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242950)

Do you actually believe that Steve Jobs personally does all rejection......really?

Do you actually RTFA......really?

No, I'm not new here.

Re:" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242952)

Actually, yeah I do.

Re:" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (3, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242960)

For something like Hypercard? Sure.

This isn't just the 10,000th fart app.

Jobs wants 'hypercard' on the iPhone? Yeah right. (4, Insightful)

Bearhouse (1034238) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242848)

Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it'.

This being the same Steve Jobs that effectively killed the original Apple Hypercard back in 2000?

Maybe that should have read, "something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, but we would have to create it, otherwise it clearly would not be insanely great..."

But just remember... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32242914)

...we PC users are hearing our swan song. This "magical device" has us all wetting our nickers in panic.

Was it really Steve Jobs (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242976)

"...Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal..."

I am wondering whether it was at Steve Jobs' sole discretion to reject the app. If it is indeed the case, he must be a busy man these days looking at every app because I understand the iPhone has 200,000 apps. Right?

Re:Was it really Steve Jobs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243072)

"...Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal..."

I am wondering whether it was at Steve Jobs' sole discretion to reject the app. If it is indeed the case, he must be a busy man these days looking at every app because I understand the iPhone has 200,000 apps. Right?

Everyone knows that Steve Jobs singlehandedly runs Apple. Every decision at Apple is immediately attributed to Steve Jobs.

Re:Was it really Steve Jobs (3, Informative)

Halo1 (136547) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243114)

This is not about an iPhone app, but about a development environment to create iPhone apps. The company contacted Apple after the SDK agreement changes to determine whether there was any way they could adapt it to the new requirements, and apparently got their final rejection notice from Steve Jobs (see the fine article).

Stupid is as stupid does... (5, Interesting)

mcrbids (148650) | more than 3 years ago | (#32242994)

Steve is really trying to sell himself short, here. His reality distortion field has gone to his head, and he thinks he's bulletproof. And you know what? When he was the only game in town, he was bulletproof.

But he's not the only game in town. In fact, as of 1st Q 2010, he's not even the biggest game in town! [npr.org] As an application developer myself, the recent shenanigans around dictating to developers like me how we can or can't do our job and/or what tools we can use make the iphone a non-starter.

Sorry, too hostile for me, too much lockin for my clients, and not enough benefit. Android it is!

Isn't it ironic that the company responsible for opening up the smartphone market is now offering the most closed platform?

Easy dev tools = too many apps to vet (2, Interesting)

Bearhouse (1034238) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243016)

Apple are already struggling, and widely criticised, for their slow and inconsistent 'approvals' process.
Imagine the explosion of apps that would happen if multiple, and easy, development paths were opened up on the iPad/Phone.
They'd drown...
I

If Apple wants HyperCard for the iPad (2, Insightful)

WillAdams (45638) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243036)

Then perhaps the question should be phrased as:

  - how would this app need to be created so as to meet the requirements of the license?

William
(who is quite fond of Runtime Revolution as it was originally called and developed a ``ProportionBar'' app in it:

Windows: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.zip [verizon.net]

Mac OS X: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.app.sit [verizon.net] )

Re:If Apple wants HyperCard for the iPad (3, Interesting)

Halo1 (136547) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243222)

Then perhaps the question should be phrased as:

  - how would this app need to be created so as to meet the requirements of the license?

That's exactly what they asked Apple, including offering several suggestions of their own. The result, quoting the article:

Steve Jobs has now rejected our proposal and made it clear that he has no interest in having revMobile available on the iPhone or iPad in any form.

google has a big opening here (1)

alen (225700) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243080)

i like the iphone app situation and management better than android. downloading apps to my computer and backing them up for later use is better than doing it on the phone. and the stupid app restriction in android is annoying for me. If Google can fix these issues quick they have a big chance to beat the iphone. a good cross platform dev environment will make it easier to develop applications for all the different android phones out there

Careful Apple (2, Insightful)

U8MyData (1281010) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243116)

I just picked up a HTC Incredible and shall I say it is, incredible... the significant reasons are AT&T sucks and the iPhone is cool but it is so married to Apple's blessings. It's one thing to be cool; it's entirely another to be free to choose what you do with your tools. Apple should be careful because it's only a matter of time that something like Android will come and decimate your business model.

Let's check the numbers... (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243232)

Yep, That Steve Jobs is a real dope [bindapple.com] ..

Lockdown is gonna wipe him out...

Apple Really is Becoming a Joke (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243312)

You have all been Jobs'd

iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (2, Informative)

Old97 (1341297) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243328)

Apple is not selling the iPad as a PC or even as a computer. It's a device. As others have pointed out, you don't see a lot of complaints about manufacturers of other devices not supporting developers. Microwaves, refrigerators and other appliances have computers in them. How about your cable box? You can hack them if you wish, but we accept the fact that if you do you violate your warranty. We accept the fact that development tools are not provided or supported by the manufacturer, because it’s a device they’ve defined and they support.

Until the iPhone, how many phone manufacturers supported the development of phone applications beyond a few chosen partners? How many carriers or manufacturers allowed you to distribute your applications using their facilities or run on their networks? Apple provided more freedom to developers on their iPhone than you could find from any other major manufacturer. Suddenly it’s your right not only to go further but to also have Apple spend its resources and risk its business and reputation supporting you? Sense of entitlement have you?

Apple isn’t stopping you from doing what you want with your iPhone or iPad, they are just refusing to help or support you.

You have more computing power in a Toyota Prius and many other cars than you do in an iPad. Why aren't slashdotters demanding free development tools, etc. for cars? If you took it upon your self to hack your car; would you expect to be covered by the manufacturer if it was then unsafe, unreliable or inoperative? I want Linux for on my Prius! Open source my BMW!

Apple has no netbook (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243388)

Apple is not selling the iPad as a PC or even as a computer. It's a device.

I am aware of that. However, Apple does not sell a 10" MacBook, and numerous reviews and editorials appear to claim that iPad can do everything that people expect of a 10" PC.

Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243486)

The difference is that in tinkering with your Prius you could very well damage real world physical parts. Tinkering with an Ipad carries a significantly lower risk of fouling the hardware through software.

Not even a native-code generator? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243362)

"Some of our customers have suggested that we continue to develop the version of revMobile that outputs entirely native code (as detailed above). However such a solution--even though it would create perfect applications--would be in violation of Apple's agreement, which states that code must originally be developed in one of their approved languages."

That's the part I still don't understand. Even if a code generator spits out C, C++, Objective-C, or JavaScript, it still isn't allowed. I don't understand why there could be any sane technical reason why not. Sure, machine-generated code might not be optimal, but the compiler doesn't fricking care, and there's nothing saying that *human*-generated code is automatically better anyway!

Same problem Flash had... (1)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243404)

As sad as I am that this got turned down, it's still not playing by the rules...

Everything that has gotten approved so far uses XCode as a build step. You don't necessarily have to do all your development work in XCode (i.e. Unity game engine), but the end result needs to be an XCode project. This is what really killed Flash. They didn't just add Flash as a library you could add to your iPhone app. They attempted to ship an entire self contained IDE and compiler that didn't let you combine your work at all with a native app.

Cross compile to an XCode project with things like static libraries for your runtime and everything will be fine.

Re:Same problem Flash had... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#32243618)

Hear, hear!

I hate Apple (1)

the100rabh (947158) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243582)

I just hope Android and Meego cut the balls out of Apple.

This company sucks and I would never buy a product from Apple

BTW did you guys check this http://www.applevsadobe.net/ [applevsadobe.net]

Cross Platform not in Apples interest (1)

strangeattraction (1058568) | more than 3 years ago | (#32243594)

Me thinks the real reason is cross platform tools decreases Apple's ability to derive revenue. If you can get Apps that run on iPhone and Android then inter-platform price competition becomes an issue. If developers are stuck developing for one platform then the number of apps Apple derives income from goes up. Developers are locked in because the cost of development for multiple platforms is high while margins are low. Apple wins because the app ecosystem is large even if the chance of success for individual developers is low. A Win no win situation for Apple vs devloper
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