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351 comments

Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankings (5, Funny)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436322)

Don't they just google it like the rest of us?

 

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (5, Insightful)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436472)

Indeed they do:

The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is

+"[language] programming"

From this I conclude that the results are meaningless. At best it shows that Objective-C programming has resulted in more discussions and questions. Whether it is "popular" or not is a bit more subjective.

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (5, Funny)

chargersfan420 (1487195) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436676)

Agreed. My first thought was, "Yay, I'm not the only idiot out there programming with VB!", but after reading that, it's more like, "Yay, I'm not the only idiot out there having problems coding with VB!"

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (1)

arth1 (260657) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436768)

So they don't count perl hacking, erlang development and assembly coding, then.

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (2, Funny)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436962)

But they do count prime-time programming, which is always more popular than the other kinds.

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437118)

They tried to count it, but it was indistinguishable from line noise.

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436858)

What can I say about Objective-C programming, I like, Objective-C programming, but Objective-C programming, is not quite as fun as non-Objective-C programming.

Actually, I have never performed Objective-C programming, but I think, Objective-C programming is quite useful for application domains specific to Objective-C programming.

Have you ever tried Objective-C programming, Apple likes to talk about Objective-C programming, but I'm not sure that Objective-C programming is right for me...?

Objective-C programming may well be right for everyone,

God Bless Objective-C programming

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437194)

Objective-C programming is a dead end. I hate Objective-C programming. Any time spent doing Objective-C programming is wasted as far as I'm concerned. I can't understand why it is so popular.

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (2, Insightful)

Demonantis (1340557) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436868)

I think popular topic would mean popular language at least to some degree. Or for sure that it is a more used language as search results wouldn't discriminate preferences like actually enjoying the language. Neat to see and know, but wouldn't use it for any significant business related decisions is how I see it.

Lines of code (1)

AffidavitDonda (1736752) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436938)

I think any useful statistics on a programming language would have to include something on the amount of code written in it and project complexity. It's nice to have lots of small applets, but a single wordprocessor would count for a lot of them Google search results only tells me, that a lot of kids try to write their first "hello world"

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (0)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437092)

At best it shows that Objective-C programming has resulted in more discussions and questions. Whether it is "popular" or not is a bit more subjective.

So when did 'more discussions about something' not equate to 'more popular'?

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437104)

So, the whole "metric" is basically a Googlefight [googlefight.com] for programming languages?

Re:Tiobe also explains how it determines it rankin (1)

Intron (870560) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437228)

No. Older than that. It's an SROM [zgp.org] .

As the Fark crowd likes to say (3, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437134)

This.

Objective-C has a lot of buzz, since Apple has a lot of buzz. That doesn't mean it is getting used in a lot of projects, just that a lot of people are talking about it. Just because there isn't a lot of chatter online about something, doesn't mean it isn't used.

For example I suspect C++ is actually much higher. Why? Because it is the language of video games by and large. Pretty much any PC and Xbox 360 game are written in C++, usually using Visual Studio. However you don't see a lot of chatter about it online since it is being done professionally and it just kind of an assumed thing in the games industry.

Well, that makes for a rather large amount of apps out there, even if they don't get talked about all that much.

Likewise, though I suspect C is high up on the list due to embedded applications, I think that their data on it is flawed. The reason they see so much is likely Linux, which of course uses a lot of C. Fine, but Linux also gets talked about a lot online, since it is open source. So the amount of discussion it generates in relation to code is much higher than a commercial project.

In general their methods are rather flawed.

Re:As the Fark crowd likes to say (2, Interesting)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437434)

I'd say Java and .Net languages (C#, VB) are probably the most popular in terms of use, mainly because they are the most used for internal business development, which is the majority of dev, just fewer users per app. Though if you count web apps and dev, then Javascript is probably #1

"how it determines it rankings" (0, Offtopic)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436342)

Does it explain it how is babby formed?

Re:"how it determines it rankings" (2, Funny)

scuzzlebutt (517123) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436368)

I'm sorry for your lots.

They need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436434)

do to way instain mother who kill thier chrilden.

Re:They need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436614)

I accidentally babby is this dangerous?

Re:They need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436706)

I accidentally babby is this dangerous?

and you managed to post the only reply that didnt have anything to do with how babby is formed.

I saw it on the news this mroning.

Re:"how it determines it rankings" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437402)

You have to in her base... or "accidentally" in her base.

Wait 40 weeks

Babby!

Where are the C development jobs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436344)

Where are the C development jobs? I have strong C skills, but everything is Java/C++/PHP/Ruby/worse.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Insightful)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436384)

Embedded Systems. There's lots of work there. And we're getting more valuable all the time, because Universities are increasingly teaching C#, Java, etc. The number of people out there who can program a microprocessor right down to the metal is dropping each year.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Funny)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436430)

Unfortunately the number of projects that require people who can program right down to the metal has also been dropping each year.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Informative)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436518)

On the higher end platforms, this is true. Projects based on ARM, PowerPC, Infineon Tri-Core, etc projects are definately using a higher level of abstraction, with more developers programming at those levels, and a small number working in device drivers and board-support packages. \ But the flipside is that intellegence is being distributed into lots of devices (automotive being the best example, but also appliances, utility meters, medical devices, etc). Most of these run on small, self-contained micros which cost only a few dollars. C is far and away the language of choice on these platforms. Developers with the knowledge to allow you to get every last drop of performance out of a $2.37 micro, so you don't have to buy the $2.52 one, are in great demand. When you build 100,000 of something, you can afford some up-front development cost to save $.15

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437320)

When you build 100,000 of something, you can afford some up-front development cost to save $.15

That's only $15000. The thing is, these places build 10,000,000 of them. Then you realise why your cheap-ass no-name gadget has such a cheap plasticky cover.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (2, Insightful)

Panaflex (13191) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436450)

They're everywhere! Sure, lots of people say they're writing C++ code (or, C code wrapped in C++), or application development. A lot of C development is OSS too - there's paid work in that area as well. There's TONS of maintenance work, especially in specialized industry controls, monitoring, whatever.

In other words, it's all around you - just shrouded in mystery. Not many people advertise new C development, but oftentimes it is just a another tool in a developer's arsenal.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Funny)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436564)

Where are the C development jobs? I have strong C skills, but everything is Java/C++/PHP/Ruby/worse.

Worse? Fortran? Cobol? Ada?

Dare I say, Intercal?

Brainfuck?!

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Funny)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436812)

Visual Cobol [visualcobol.net] .

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437388)

Hey, there's even a modern web framework [coboloncogs.org] for Cobol!

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (1)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437024)

C has limitations and is inefficient as a solution to many problems (though of course it is ideal for others).

If C is the only language you feel comfortable in, you need to get more practice with something else.

Honestly, if you haven't gotten enough exposure to C++ by now to be able to bluff your way into a gig, you've been slacking hard.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437084)

Ada is better than C as a language. C's edge comes from strong library support.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (1)

AstrumPreliator (708436) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437116)

Or Piet [dangermouse.net] ?

If you can tell me what this [dangermouse.net] program in Piet does (without looking at the file name) then you have a job!

Disclaimer: I wrote two different interpreters for this language and I am working on a third one. I am quite likely insane.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437236)

Operating system kernel, device drivers, and all sort of embedded device firmware.

I hope you don't have just "strong C skills", as those actually require strong software engineering and CS skills as well ;-)

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437524)

You know, I've been learning Ada these past couple months and I find it to be a thing of beauty, one of the most elegant languages I've ever had the pleasure to use. And besides, its F/OSS support is incredible for such a non-mainstream language.

So yeah, this post is off-topic as hell but, for anyone interested in learning a new language, don't be discouraged by the above poster putting Ada besides the attrocity inflicted upon mankind under the name of Cobol and do give it a try.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (4, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436848)

Go for a C++ job then. Or suck it up and learn a few languages.

The reason Java and other languages are more prominent these days is because they are more suitable for most business requirements - reliability, scalability, portability etc. Unless an app has to hit the metal, or has hard speed / memory / CPU requirements, chances are C is not the right language to write in any more.

Re:Where are the C development jobs? (2, Informative)

lgw (121541) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437534)

Learn Java if you enjoy solving the same business problems over and over again. Kernel programming is still C. Most "C++ jobs" neuter C++ down to the point you're really just using C with classes, easy to pick up if you know C.

I recently had lunch with a friend of mine who manages Java development. He's switching jobs because the company is switching to $10/hour Java coders, and he wants nothing to do with that. To the current business mindset, if the problem is best solved with Java, it's best solved from another country.

For some reason this isn't as much of a problem with C# (perhaps because there's so much less open source available in C#), but of course you're competing in a world labor market in any language, it's just a matter of degree.

What language for business logic? (4, Interesting)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436350)

There is one popular computing platform that requires all programs to be written in Objective-C. There is another popular computing platform that requires all programs to be written in one of the many languages that compile to verifiably type-safe CLR bytecode, but Objective-C is not one of those languages. So if I want to develop an application for both of these platforms, in what language should I express the business logic of the application so that it can be automatically translated into Objective-C and into a CLR-friendly language?

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Michael Kristopeit (1751814) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436386)

it all depends on what types of data and control structures the application utilizes.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436426)

Can you give some examples of data and control structures that would lead to the choice of one language for the business logic as opposed to another language for the business logic?

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Michael Kristopeit (1751814) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436616)

if the application can be written so it just requires generic variables (such as PHP's variable implementation) where sanity checking is part of the application and not the platform, then it should be very easy to write your own translator in any language you choose.

if the application relies on the platform to enforce variable types, then additional code will have to be inserted for platforms that don't provide such strict typing, a much more complicated task.

i prefer to code in PHP for business logic apps and roll my own type checking, same as i prefer to code in C for server daemons and roll my own memory management...

Re:What language for business logic? (5, Insightful)

0racle (667029) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436462)

I believe the answer is C.

The answer is always C.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436732)

I c.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437224)


(5pts) Is the above statement...

A. Always right. B. Never right. C. Sometimes right.

Re:What language for business logic? (2, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436536)

There is one popular computing platform that requires all programs to be written in Objective-C.

Does it? I thought Apple allowed a few other languages, like plain C/C++...

So if I want to develop an application for both of these platforms, in what language should I express the business logic of the application so that it can be automatically translated into Objective-C and into a CLR-friendly language?

Unfortunately, the answer would probably be XML. Lots and lots of XML. Just make sure it's not Turing-complete...

A saner answer (but one I like less) is to develop something which compiles Objective-C to CLR. Maybe it'd work at a higher level (compile Objective-C to C#), or maybe at a lower level (translate Objective-C bytecode to CLR), but either way, that's your only option, because the iStuff is the only platform which actually bans source language. If they found out you did it the other way around (starting in C# and compiling to Objective-C bytecode), they'd kill your app.

That or just build a web app.

Re:What language for business logic? (-1)

Chris Mattern (191822) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436678)

Does it? I thought Apple allowed a few other languages, like plain C/C++...

On the Mac you have the usual choice of languages, although Objective-C is the "native" language of the MacOS API. On the iPhone it's Objective-C or GTFO.

Re:What language for business logic? (4, Informative)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436898)

I think you must be confused. That would be pretty hard to do, since Objective C is a superset of C! In any case, you're explicitly wrong:

The clause, section 3.3.3, now reads:

"Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)."

(http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/08/apples_iphone_4_sdk_license_bans_flash_java_mono_apps.html [appleinsider.com] )

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436970)

No, I was talking about the iPhone. It's not just Objective-C or GTFO. From this page [daringfireball.net] (haven't seen the agreement itself, it's surprisingly difficult to get if I don't want to actually become an iPhone developer):

Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine...

So it's Objective-C, C, C++, JavaScript on WebKit, or GTFO.

Still sucks, but it's at least theoretically possible to develop a cross-platform C or C++ app, assuming the other platforms allow them.

Which still sucks sucks -- basically, your UI gets to be rewritten entirely for each platform, and your "business logic" has to be written with the "native toolkit", in one of the lowest-level languages you could use, which is the exact fucking opposite of how it should be.

Re:What language for business logic? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437324)

I disagree that this is the opposite of how it should be. The 3.3.3 terms are designed to prevent people from writing "least common denominator" user interfaces that don't look or behave appropriately for an iPhone app. If you want to make a good interface for your application you should be writing it separately for each platform. The only real exception is games which generally implement their own UI using OpenGL, so they don't have a problem.

Core logic should be written in a way that it can be used on multiple platforms, which usually means C or C++. I don't see a problem there, though it would be better to have other options like C# (MonoTouch) as well.

Business logic, that which binds things together, unfortunately is alienated by this because you will have to write in a low level language. The only high level scripting language permitted is JavaScript, and you'll have to jump through hoops to use that outside the context of WebKit. Python, Lua, Ruby, etc. are out, which is a shame.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437420)

Objective-C++ allows you to mix C++ and Objective-C, and standard C code will always work since Objective-C is C with a Smalltalk messaging runtime implemented on it. The iPhone APIs are mostly Objective-C with C reserved for the lower-level technologies.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436710)

There is one popular computing platform that requires all programs to be written in Objective-C.

Does it? I thought Apple allowed a few other languages, like plain C/C++...

Not on the iPhone (and I assume neither for any of Apple's current non-laptop devices). But for the laptop, yeah, there are plenty of languages.

Re:What language for business logic? (2, Informative)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436870)

Not on the iPhone (and I assume neither for any of Apple's current non-laptop devices). But for the laptop, yeah, there are plenty of languages.

Where are you getting this information? I think you might be confused because OSX is not a "laptop" operating system, it covers Mac mini, laptops, and desktops (Mac Pro, imac, etc).

The clause, section 3.3.3, now reads:

"Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)."

(http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/08/apples_iphone_4_sdk_license_bans_flash_java_mono_apps.html [appleinsider.com] )

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436982)

Sorry, I meant laptop/desktop. Haven't seen a mac desktop in so long that I forgot they exist. I thought I remembered seeing something in one of Apple's reference documents that the iphone is practically restricted to obj-c. Can't find it, so I probably misremember it.

Re:What language for business logic? (4, Informative)

pauljlucas (529435) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436714)

I thought Apple allowed a few other languages, like plain C/C++...

They do, but if you want to use any of the functions for things like, say, UI, you need to use Objective-C at some point because their API is only in Objective-C.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436826)

I think you can do carbon stuff in plain ol' C, albeit painfully. And of course there's Java.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436998)

Unfortunately Apple seems to be killing carbon and I think Java/Cocoa is officially deprecated now.

Re:What language for business logic? (4, Insightful)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436846)

You will, however, almost certainly not share a single line of UI code between a .Net application and an iPhone application anyway. Even if you could write Objective-C code for .Net, you wouldn't be able to make UIKit calls on the other device, making it a moot point. Likewise, even if you could write code in C# for iPhone, you would not have support for Windows UI calls.

The way you write code in situations like this is an abstraction layer. You write the core code in C or C++, then write an iPhone UI in Objective-C and a WinMo UI in... whatever, and similarly abstract out file reads/writes, etc. You write custom OS-specific code near the boundaries between the OS and your app, then write the core code in a language that's cross-platform.

For maximum convenience, you should also consider using Core Foundation where possible. You can build and include CFLite for the other devices, and as long as you restrict yourself to that subset of the API, you'll be fine. And on the iPhone side, you can then take advantage of toll-free bridging to use most of those CF objects as though they were the equivalent NS (Foundation) objects.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437610)

That's where the V in MVC comes from... the View can be a native binding for whatever, or through a thin controller/router to a contller and models managed in a core language.. though Apple seems to be allowing MonoTouch based apps into the App Store. Which would allow for apps for both, with different UIs, but all in C#. Just the same, you can create Windows apps in C/C++, no .Net CLR required.

Re:What language for business logic? (4, Insightful)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436950)

Somewhat interesting to look at (e.g.) the Wolfenstein 3D iphone code...to see just how little Objective-C there can be!

Re:What language for business logic? (2, Funny)

spazdor (902907) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436588)

Pseudocode.

(where "automatically" = "delegated to PFY intern.")

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436728)

you can use llvm to compile Objective C into CLR (or java, if that's your thing).

Re:What language for business logic? (0)

Ukab the Great (87152) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436770)

A sign of good application architecture is that it can stay the same even if the application is rewritten in a totally different OOP language.

Re:What language for business logic? (2, Insightful)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437100)

A sign of any real application architecture is that it can't.

The problem isn't in the abstractions in the middle of the program. Those can generally be translated all over the place.

The problem is at the edges, where the program has to interface with the system (and via the system with the user and other peripherals).

Not many languages abstract those things in ways that allow applications to just drop in. Which is why everywhere you go someone has come up with the idea of an abstraction layer, so their goodies aren't strongly coupled to a platform in a way that prevents them from moving to a new platform.

This isn't limited to porting between languages. Even in one language, porting between systems gives you the idea to put in an abstraction layer, thinking all you'll have to do is reimplement that layer for the next system.

And the concept of an operating system is a successful example of such a layer, but of course nobody gets that, so they have to abstract a layer between the app and the OS as well.

I've made a good living working around those mistakes.

Re:What language for business logic? (1, Informative)

fusiongyro (55524) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437076)

If you want to develop a cross-platform app for the iPhone and iPad, you're fucked, so don't bother.

If you want to develop a cross-platform GUI app for Mac OS X, Linux and Windows, your best bet is probably to use Qt, which means C++.

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437176)

So if I want to develop an application for both of these platforms, in what language should I express the business logic of the application

Dalvik.

Oh ok then, you want C++ - iPhone can be developer using C/C++, and a subset of C++ can compile to the CLR. Just ignore managed C++ STL, its slow as you can imagine. (yes, and you can write C/C++ apps for Android too). The major thing to remember when architecting your apps is to decouple the GUI so you can slap a C#/Obj/Java GUI on top.

Re:What language for business logic? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437440)

XML

Re:What language for business logic? (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437508)

Windows aps don't require .Net bytecode, any more than Linux apps require Python. Just the same, .net has pretty clean access to system libraries written in C, as do other environments/languages. I think that plain C is pretty safe for underlying systems code, but would probably go with a higher level language for non-3d gaming UIs.

Re:What language for business logic? (0)

jonadab (583620) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437522)

> So if I want to develop an application for both of these platforms,
> in what language should I express the business logic of the application

Perl. Every major platform comes with Perl out of the box except for MS Windows, and you can either distribute one of the various Windows versions of Perl with your application, or else use PAR or something along those lines to bundle your application and Perl into a single executable file. There are other options too, but I would use Perl.

The hard part is deciding what widget toolkit to use (assuming you want to create a GUI app; if you're aiming more for a command-line interface, then this issue just goes away).

Perl, like any major programming language, of course has libraries for all the major widget sets (and some of the minor ones), but that doesn't really answer the question. Some people are really only going to be happy if you use the "native" widgets on each platform, but that pretty much shoots the whole idea of cross-platform design right out the nearest window. You could use a widget set that's available on all the platforms (GTK, for instance), but it won't feel fully native on every platform. You could use a "wrapper" set (e.g., wxWidgets), but then you either have to limit yourself to doing things that can be done in all the sets it wraps, or else you need a bunch of platform-specific (or widget-set-specific) code. You could create your own wrapper set, but that way lies madness.

Or you could run your code on a server and give it a web-based interface and let people access it through a browser. This completely sidesteps the whole issue of widget sets, though it is of course not without limitations of its own.

wha...? (3, Insightful)

Mark19960 (539856) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436354)

They use search engines to determine this?
Why does this seem odd to me... or even misguided?

Objective-C jumped up on the basis (4, Funny)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436514)

of all the posts on Slashdot saying how much it sucks.

It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436740)

All kidding aside, Objective-C isn't the sort of language people use because they want to. Rather, they use it because it's what Apple says they can use.

Back in the NeXT days, we used it because it was far better than anything else out there. But that was 20 years ago. Times have changed, and we have better programming languages available to us. Even with Objective-C 2.0, it's still somewhat of a relic.

So it's popularity isn't natural. It's almost fully artificial, based upon the restricted nature of Apple's platforms, especially the mobile platforms where they've literally "outlawed" everything else.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (1)

dzfoo (772245) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436890)

I find Objective-C a superior language than other crap I have to deal with at work. C# is a wonderful language, in my opinion, but its ties to the .NET framework limits its platform scope and, to me at least, its appeal.

      -dZ.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (1)

dubbreak (623656) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437138)

C# is a wonderful language, in my opinion, but its ties to the .NET framework limits its platform scope and, to me at least, its appeal.

You have heard of mono [mono-project.com] right?

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (1)

dzfoo (772245) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437200)

Yes, and it tries to replicate the CLI and the .NET framework, both of which I think suck.

        -dZ.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (3, Insightful)

ceeam (39911) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436920)

> Times have changed, and we have better programming languages available to us.

That's interesting. And if I'd ask you to name another compiled language with dynamic message routing/dispatch it would be what? C libs compatibility is desired.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437244)

And if I'd ask you to name another compiled language with dynamic message routing/dispatch

Erlang.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437486)

C++, C#, VB.NET, Java. Even Haskell and and some Common Lisp implementations manage all of that.

I know you'll say, "But C#, VB.NET and Java aren't compiled!" WRONG. You can use .NET's ngen.exe utility to compile .NET apps to native executables. And I've worked with Java apps of over 3 million lines of code that compiled to native binaries just fine using GCC's GCJ compiler.

Re:It doesn't exhibit natural popularity. (1)

Mark19960 (539856) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437096)

I know I will get modded troll, but I think with all the bad Apple press and the general shift towards anti-Apple
that the fanboys are really reaching for anything.. and I mean anything to make it all go away or to paint a better picture.
It won't be painted in Obj-C... Sorry.

Re:Objective-C jumped up on the basis (1)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437130)

So next quarter's report will be slashdotted. Big whoop.

Has been quite a while! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32436542)

Slashdotted!! And it's not even a blog or anything...

Re:Has been quite a while! (2, Informative)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436572)

Not a blog? Doing a couple of dozen google searches and typing the numbers into Excel doesn't exactly strike me as hard-core Journalism...

Most popular language isn't C (4, Funny)

AdmiralXyz (1378985) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436562)

If Tiobe's website is to be believed, the #1 programming language right now is Whitespace.

Re:Most popular language isn't C (1)

noidentity (188756) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437032)

If Tiobe's website is to be believed, the #1 programming language right now is Whitespace.

You're correct, though the #0 language is C.

Re:Most popular language isn't C (2, Funny)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437146)

And the most popular drink is spit, and the most popular song is "why won't this compiiiii-iiiile?" and the most popular slashdot reply is "Page Down".

Re:Most popular language isn't C (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437188)

If Tiobe's website is to be believed, the #1 programming language right now is Whitespace.

I would have thought it would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck [wikipedia.org]

How about a different conclusion..... (1)

m509272 (1286764) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436824)

This is funny. If it were me analyzing their results, it could also mean that developers are so frustrated with Objective-C that they have to use search engines to find help for the simplest of things instead of simply being able to code using provided documentation or books.

JavaScript (1)

belloc1 (1118477) | more than 4 years ago | (#32436916)

Ok (if you count it) what language is more popular than JavaScript?? How the hell is that not #1??? JavaScript is everywhere and I'm sure 90% of the people here on Slashdot use it. That is bizarre. Something is wrong with their stats.

Re:JavaScript (2, Interesting)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437294)

People always overestimate the number of other people that are like them in some way. You are interested in Javascript, so you overestimate how many other people it is important for.

I've programmed for 30 years; a few languages I've used a lot; many languages I've dabbled with. I've never once touched Javascript. I'm likely to underestimate how many people are program in Javascript.

Re:JavaScript (1)

ShadowRangerRIT (1301549) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437448)

Agreed. I've learned enough JavaScript to do a few things with Greasemonkey (mostly stuff like going straight from an article link on a news site to the print-friendly version without having to go through the non-print-friendly version first), but I've never used JavaScript in a job. My jobs have been mostly C (with a smattering of C++, but mostly C), plus a few years of Java and C#. Perl and Bash are used as the glue when needed. JavaScript just doesn't enter into it.

I'm sure there are a lot of web developers that use it all the time, but contrary to popular belief, web apps have not replaced locally installed applications yet, nor are they likely to for many purposes (e.g. high speed number crunching).

The return of C? (1)

jamshid (140925) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437018)

Although we went through a period thinking we have an abundance of CPU power, efficiency is back in vogue as it's needed everywhere from the mobile, because of limited cpu/battery, to servers trying to solve the the C10K problem (serving >10K simultaneous connections).

Couple of interesting projects are the Redis server, written in tight ANSI C, and the Go language, kinda like a combination of C++ and python with a nod towards erlang.

http://code.google.com/p/redis/ [google.com]
Redis is an advanced key-value store. It is similar to memcached but the dataset is not volatile, and values can be strings, exactly like in memcached, but also lists, sets, and ordered sets. All this data types can be manipulated with atomic operations to push/pop elements, add/remove elements, perform server side union, intersection, difference between sets, and so forth. Redis supports different kind of sorting abilities.

http://golang.org/doc/go_faq.html#What_is_the_purpose_of_the_project [golang.org]

Pseudocode is more popular (1)

mschaffer (97223) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437022)

If only they had a pseudocode compiler!

Dinosour language (5, Informative)

Nightlight3 (248096) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437088)

After about two years programming Obj-C/Cocoa for iPhone apps, I can't believe that this ancient experiment in OOP by an amateur compiler writer is still around. Even though it is nominally a compiled language, all the calls to methods as well as accesses to class properties are interpreted -- the name of the method & its args (args have names) is looked up in a hash table by runtime interpreter to find the address, then to push args and call it, every time you invoke it or access a property. The Obj-C creator basically didn't know how to code linker-loader address binding and so he just left that part for the runtime to decode on millions of end users CPUs from there on. He also didn't know about name mangling, and left that part of his job for the future programmers to do manually (method names and args are explicitly named, so you end up with arg named calling methods like [obj method:arg1 count:count]). For adding properties to a class you have enter the same info in triplicate (variable delcaratiom, property declaratiom, getter/setter declaration), so there is lots of cut & paste, doing by hand the job that compiler should have been doing. The syntax is very clunky, inelegant, uneconomical on programmer's time e.g. requiring lot's of jumping back and forth to match/complete nested square brackets, again simplifying compiler writer's job at the expense of busy work for countless programmers from there on.

In addition to performance & narrow technical issues, the worst fundamental flaw of Obj-C is that the creator didn't understand the value of name space partitioning in OOP (the key tool for building layers of abstraction), so much of that's left largely to programmers, which in Cocoa (API, like win32) resulted in mind-numbing hyper-verbosity, with each class and method names dragging huge repetitive prefixes, with each name spelling out explicitly its whole ancestry back to the stone age. While the Xcode editor is doing heoric efforts in trying to guess what you meant and offer auto-completion of the names as you type, that is the lesser half of the problem (you still end up doing lots of cut & paste of the Cocoa names). The main drawback is when trying to read or modify the code later -- even the simplest algorithm looks complex, any pattern specific to the task at hand is drowned in the mind-numbing sea of repetitive Cocoa verbiage.

In short, horrible language & API framework. Only someone who grew up with this and never knew anything better could love it. Of course, like everything Apple, buried under the idiotic Coca+Obj-C layer, there are gems of genius, especially the extremely well thought out functionality and high performance graphics & animation engines.

Re:Dinosour language (4, Informative)

binary paladin (684759) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437400)

I have tried multiple times to get into Objective-C and Cocoa. I just can't do it and Objective-C is why. It's a shitty language with an even shittier syntax.

You would think Objective-C 2.0 would have made a greater leap in terms of usability (like adding namespaces), but it didn't. We got garbage collection... which isn't even used in iPhone programming!

As much as I tend to detest Microsoft, I would love to see C#, or a language like it, become more widespread. As far as syntax goes, it's my favorite take on OOP + C.

Re:Dinosour language (4, Informative)

mini me (132455) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437500)

all the calls to methods as well as accesses to class properties are interpreted

That is the feature, along with dynamic typing, that makes Objective-C a perfect match for interface programming. Being able to load classes and call methods from string identifiers reduces the amount of code needed considerably when compared to languages that use early binding. Have fun re-implementing something like KVC/KVO in C++.

Objective-C's problems stem from the fact that it must be able to compile all valid C code. This severely limits the syntax available. Ruby is essentially Objective-C without the C syntax, if you are curious about the difference syntax makes.

Re:Dinosour language (0, Troll)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437526)

Wow. I think you use a different Objective C then I do.

manager to worker ratio (1)

lotho brandybuck (720697) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437252)

Given the fact that most companies I've worked in lately have had more manager types than actual producers, the most popular language I've seen is PHB.

(pointy head boss)

As an old C programmer, let me say... (1)

mandelbr0t (1015855) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437276)

int main(int argc, char **argv) { printf("w00t!\n"); double_contracting_rate(); return 0; }

Python over Perl? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32437352)

I cant believe Python is now more popular than Perl..... :(

Re:Python over Perl? (1)

Manhigh (148034) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437428)

Perl is awesome when it comes to parsing ascii but I think Python has an inherent edge in its readability.

Another sign... (2, Interesting)

leonbloy (812294) | more than 4 years ago | (#32437480)

... I value most than Tiobe's dummy ranking, is the popularity of tags in Stackoverflow [stackoverflow.com] .
Granted, it correlates more with questions asked by programmers (many of them beginners) than with jobs.

Anyway, you can see that also there "Objective-C" has a (surprising for me) high position (as well as "iPhone").
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