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Google To End Google.cn Redirect

CmdrTaco posted more than 4 years ago | from the good-luck-with-that dept.

Google 183

shmG writes "Google Inc. has announced a 'new approach' in China after the government said the company could no longer automatically redirect users to the unfiltered Hong Kong site. This gives Baidu Inc., which already has a greater than 60% share in Internet search in China, a chance to expand. It has announced new plans to hire US engineers to enhance its technical skills and propel its growth globally." Update: 06/29 18:27 GMT by S : Changed the headline to more accurately reflect what Google is doing. They're ending the redirect and applying for a license renewal, so it's still in question whether they'll actually go dark in China. However, they say they're also looking for ways to continue allowing uncensored search, such as putting a high-profile link to their Hong Kong site on the google.cn landing page.

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Official Notice and Explanation (4, Informative)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730434)

The article is a little confusing on how they're going to change their strategy. The Official Blog [blogspot.com] has that info:

We have therefore been looking at possible alternatives, and instead of automatically redirecting all our users, we have started taking a small percentage of them to a landing page on Google.cn [google.cn] that links to Google.com.hk [google.com.hk] —where users can conduct web search or continue to use Google.cn services like music and text translate, which we can provide locally without filtering. This approach ensures we stay true to our commitment not to censor our results on Google.cn and gives users access to all of our services from one page.

Over the next few days we’ll end the redirect entirely, taking all our Chinese users to our new landing page—and today we re-submitted our ICP license renewal application based on this approach.

It's kind of funny, the "landing page" is a false image of a search box [google.cn] and when you click anywhere on the page, you go to Google Hong Kong [google.com.hk] . How this is okay as opposed to a redirect, I'll never know ... and once that page starts eventually taking users to unfiltered results of Tiananmen Square, I think the Chinese Government will take a few more steps to stop it.

Of course it looks like ibtimes has a policy that only allows them to link to more ibtimes sites instead of -- you know -- the original source of all their quotes.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730746)

I sort of get the impression that the person writing that article got to the second paragraph of the blog post and then stopped reading.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (-1, Flamebait)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730756)

Rather than lose China, I'd comply with the government's wishes and obey the law (i.e. filter). Nice guys who "do no evil" ultimately finish last.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730840)

Rather than lose China, I'd comply with the government's wishes and obey the law (i.e. filter). Nice guys who "do no evil" ultimately finish last.

On the other hand, they have my vocal support. I'm glad I went with an Android based phone. I'm glad I've developed only on Android and not iPhone. I never used Bing. I never used Bing Cashback even though my friends told me it was giving them money back. And I'm glad I've used Google. Given two competing products of the same functionality in the future I'd go with Google's. At the same time I am aware they are flawed, have privacy issues and will play ball with the American government by folding faster than superman on laundry day.

I'm not a blind stark raving idiot fanboy but upon hearing of Google's commitment to move to unfiltered search results, they have achieved something in my mind and brought themselves to a level of idealism that I identify with.

Does it hurt their pocketbook? You bet. But to say it does nothing else is disingenuous. You may not consider my admiration monetarily worth anything but it is something.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731052)

Hear hear. Let Apple help China - maybe their pholosophies will mesh better. Google may have a few holes in its hat, but it's a white hat still.

Maybe the Chinese will even have trouble finding "U.S. engineers" to help it stumble along in the online world. Gee, haven't there been a lot of brilliant Chinese students studying here in the States? And they're not swarming back to help the motherland? Can't imagine why....

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731736)

Every man has his price. I'd gladly go tell Baidu everything I know. My price for that would be... hmmm... $150K up front and $200K annually, after taxes. If I don't have to actually live in a communist country while helping out, then it's half that amount. Call me, Baidu!

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731300)

Yeah that's great, but if they continue following this path of disobeying Chinese law, then by 2020 Baidu will be the world's #1 company with 1.5 billion users while Google is just a has-been (like Atari or Amiga today). Baidu might even gain enough power to come to the US and dominate our market too.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

andy1307 (656570) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731408)

China has 1.5 billion people. The population of the world is 6 billion, including 1.2 billion in India who still use google.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Interesting)

Ritz_Just_Ritz (883997) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731540)

What's more valuable? 1.5 billion consumers with a very limited purchasing power or developed countries where eyeballs are actually worth paying for?

I think Google should not submit to Chinese bullying at all. It's not a market worth chasing given the effort and bad karma required to be a participant.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732010)

OK that's just funny. 1.5 billion people in China do not use computers. And 1.2 billion in India don't either. I think you'll find that due to economics, lack of power in places, etc. that a LOT fewer than the total population are users of computers / smart phones. Even in the US and Europe the number of computer users is less than the population.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732208)

Even in the US and Europe the number of computer users is less than the population.

No shit.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731472)

Yeah! As one of the earths rest ~5 billion people I find it exciting and can't almost help myself waiting for Baidu to launch over here so I can switch out Google!!

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Insightful)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731536)

Baidu might even gain enough power to come to the US and dominate our market too.

Only way this could ever possibly happen is if every other search engine available in the US decided to start charging for access.

There is a huge difference between buying cheap, shoddily made Chinese manufactured physical objects & trusting a free Chinese search engine.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731556)

Baidu might even gain enough power to come to the US and dominate our market too.

Yup. I can't wait to use products from a company who's in the back pocket of the Chinese government.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732620)

Yea, I know i want to use a search engine which up front tells me it will censor for the powers that be. And that it gives results biased and censored to be pro-communist chinese government position.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

shoehornjob (1632387) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732688)

Baidu might even gain enough power to come to the US and dominate our market too.

Oh I seriously doubt that they could do much damage to Google on its' own turf. With the market pretty well locked up here I doubt they could get much of a foothold. If they were so brazen Google would probably outspend them 2:1.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (-1, Flamebait)

uprise78 (1256084) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731574)

Really? Are you proud of yourself for being so loyal to Google? Maybe you should try searching on Bing. Maybe you should try developing for the iPhone. Maybe you should have cashed in on your Bing dollars. But most of all, maybe you should stop patting yourself on the back for being so closed minded and get outside for a little while....without your Google Android phone. Here's to wishful thinking...

Thanks But No Thanks (1)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731870)

Maybe you should try developing for the iPhone.

Hey, I'd love to. Could you send me an computer that I can install the development package on? And an iPhone to test? And waive the $100/year App Store fee?

Maybe you should try searching on Bing.

I toyed around with it when it first launched, never used it really though. Wasn't satisfied with it evidently I wasn't alone [wordpress.com] .

But most of all, maybe you should stop patting yourself on the back for being so closed minded and get outside for a little while

I am so utterly confused. To date, I do not believe I have purchased a product from Google. I have a Motorola DROID phone with their OS on it, I have used their search engine, I probably have given them ad revenue but I cannot think of a single instance where I've paid Google directly from my pocketbook. There is something closed minded about appreciating this fact?

What was it that I exhibited that was closed minded?

....without your Google Android phone.

Last Sunday I was canoeing on the Potomac (Brunswick to Point of Rocks) without my DROID. Seriously. Did not want to lose that. Really enjoyed it and heavily recommend it.

Here's to wishful thinking...

Thanks for the wishes but I don't really need them. I apologize if my post sounded like I was patting myself on the back. Had Google caved to the Chinese government you probably would have gotten a healthy dosage of me cursing the above facts and lamenting that their just as big of a pile of shit as Apple or Microsoft. At least Google shows a little bit of promise.

It disturbs me that you were moderated Insightful.

Re:Thanks But No Thanks (0, Offtopic)

RMS Eats Toejam (1693864) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732170)

Despite all your mildly witty retorts, you still come off as a self-righteous douche. No amount of canoing, real or imagined, is going to change that.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731882)

What about the search results that get ranked higher in Google because they're buying AdWords and are therefore "more relevant" than another site with the same information not behind a paywall?

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

D H NG (779318) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732482)

At the same time I am aware they [...] will play ball with the American government by folding faster than superman on laundry day.

Based on their past behavior [pbs.org] I'd say you are wrong.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730870)

Good thing Google is not you, then.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

asukasoryu (1804858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730976)

Sounds like Google may be putting their ethical commitments (not filtering) ahead of their desire for profit. I don't think it's such a bad thing to "finish last" if you're still a nice guy at the end of the day. Everyone's got their own priorities.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (-1, Flamebait)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731350)

Here lies ______. He never got married, never had kids, and his genes/family name stops here. But hey at least he was a "nice guy"

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

Relyx (52619) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731620)

You can still get married and have kids while being a nice guy. In fact it greatly helps!

Love does not involve hitting a woman over the head with a club and dragging her back to your cave, you know. :)

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731626)

Lost of people choose not to have kids, jackass. What are you, a mindless animal?

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

skelterjohn (1389343) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732454)

It's a tendency that gets bred out of the population, by and large.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Insightful)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731110)

Rather than lose China, I'd comply with the government's wishes and obey the law (i.e. filter). Nice guys who "do no evil" ultimately finish last.
--
My XP PC is slowly dying. Have an old Mac w/ 10.5 you want to get rid of? I'll pay shipping : ) harleykevin@netscape.com

It's amusing you still believe "nice guys finish last" while you're fine with being evil but have to resort to begging for other people's used, cast-off hardware. The lesson seems to be lost on you, but in a nutshell it's a myth that evil triumphs while good fails. In fact, "good" and "evil" have absolutely nothing to do with success or failure. To believe otherwise is simple superstition.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731340)

In fact, "good" and "evil" have absolutely nothing to do with success or failure. To believe otherwise is simple superstition.

It's not superstition. It may be false, but it's not simple superstition. To be "good" means (among other things) that you have obligations beyond your own advancement; these obligations can (obviously) interfere with your own advancement. It can be as complex as the whole China thing, or as simple as sabotaging a co-worker (and thus competitor on the corporate ladder). To be evil means you can take any means necessary for your own advancement, constrained only by external forces -- your only commandment is the 11th, "thou shalt not get caught".

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731422)

Sorry, you haven't proven it isn't superstition. :)

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Insightful)

Relyx (52619) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731860)

The problem is that being selfish and doing everything you believe necessary for your own advancement can backfire. One can easily end up been isolated and left in the cold. In my experience, those who have taken their time to help others, establish trust and rally people around their own interests do better in the long run. You have to give a little to get a little. Selfishness is a huge turnoff.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732058)

The problem is that being selfish and doing everything you believe necessary for your own advancement can backfire. One can easily end up been isolated and left in the cold. In my experience, those who have taken their time to help others, establish trust and rally people around their own interests do better in the long run. You have to give a little to get a little. Selfishness is a huge turnoff.

Being evil can include long-term thinking of that sort as well. The good person establishes trust because he's trustworthy; the evil one because it is expedient. The good person will remain trustworthy even against his own interests; the evil one sees that trust as an investment and will betray it for a sufficiently large payoff.

Any successful corrupt politician knows how to play that game.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

HiThere (15173) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732632)

It *can* be superstition. It all depends on why you believe as you do.

OTOH, game theory can show that in some circumstances being good is a benefit, where as in others it's a detriment. But figuring out whether to be good or evil in a circumstance is a sure path to failure unless either time is no consideration, or you've pre-calculated the environment.

Generally in a social setting people who do good, do well. In many zero-sum situations, however, this isn't true.

Now as to superstition: Superstition seems to be equivalent to learning thing based on "After this therefore because of this.", though it can be a "social maxims" kind of thing, also. E.g., most people who believe in rabbits feet do so because of the social maxim, but most superstitions don't fall into that category. Most are post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies. OTOH, "nice guys finish last" seems to be a social maxim kind of belief. Few people can point to someone and say "See, he was a nice guy, and that's why he finished last".

But there are caveats, e.g.: When teams are competing, it's probably true that the team that believe "nice guys finish last" when interpreted to mean "don't be nice to the guys on the other team", is more likely to win. But if it's applied within the team, the team will be likely to do poorly.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0, Flamebait)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731912)

evil will always triumph because good is dumb /oblig

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732014)

If you haven't noticed yet, he's a complete fucking retard.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (2, Insightful)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731220)

Rather than lose China, I'd comply with the government's wishes and obey the law (i.e. filter). Nice guys who "do no evil" ultimately finish last.

Nice guys who capitulate to evil still finish last, and feel bad about themselves besides. If you want to win by being evil, you have to embrace it, not merely capitulate to it.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1)

medv4380 (1604309) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732186)

So would joining a book burning be alright if it meant getting some money or just getting a head in life be ok?

If you discard morals in exchange for a dollar then what would stop Google from say selling every one's search data on gay porn and personal data mined local data to say some religious organization who wants to find and cure the gays? Removing ethics from business only causes business to remove any safe guard they may have to stop some disaster from happening.

It's good that Google is at least standing up for what they believe in rather then surrendering the moral ground

Rose: Doctor, they've got guns.

The Doctor: And I haven't. Which makes me the better person, don't you think? They can shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine!

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (3, Insightful)

ultranova (717540) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732546)

Rather than lose China, I'd comply with the government's wishes and obey the law (i.e. filter). Nice guys who "do no evil" ultimately finish last.

It's not a matter of being nice. It's a matter of having a spine and not selling your principles the second it becomes convenient to do so. And actually bragging that you would... well. I guess you just set the new record for being pathetic. Congratulations.

I could also comment on how your eagerness to cooperate with the Chinese dictatorship combines with your frequent implications of libertarian leanings to create the picture of a truly pitiful individual, one completely devoid of any values besides personal gain and completely undeserving of any freedom yourself since you're willing to help remove it from others for money, but frankly, why bother? You're not going to care, and anyone else has sufficient knowledge to ignore you and your worthless opinions from now on.

Crawl back to under the rock you came from, worm.

Re:Official Notice and Explanation (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730948)

I get the feeling that by making the user click to go to the HK site (as opposed to a browser automatically redirecting there), the user will now be punishable for committing a crime. The user is choosing to thwart Chinese censorship by clicking.

I suspect after the first hundred or so are rounded up and sent for re-education and the word gets out, very few users will choose to click.

Yippee can't wait (3, Funny)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730452)

I can't wait!

Baidu, bringing Chinese internet censorship to you! Today!

Re:Yippee can't wait (1)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730538)

No need to wait!

Baidu, bringing Chinese internet censorship to you since 2000

Re:Yippee can't wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730766)

...and if you want FULL results, a small gratuity will give you access to some of them, while a MUCH larger gratuity will give you access to ALL of them...

Re:Yippee can't wait (1)

decipher_saint (72686) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731126)

Oh boy! Another crappy search engine, this time with incomplete results on purpose! Whoopee!!

Re:Yippee can't wait (1)

xaxa (988988) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731460)

Oh boy! Another crappy search engine, this time with incomplete results on purpose! Whoopee!!

I hope you're aware that Google filters search results.

Last week on google.co.uk I got the message saying a result had been removed from view, with a link to Chilling Effects. It was also missing on the .de site, with a similar message. It was missing on the .com site, but there was no message (exactly the same results as the .co.uk site), which surprised me. It was visible on the .se site (one extra result compared to the other sites), although it was a link to a forum which wasn't working.

Re:Yippee can't wait (1)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731454)

I for one welcome our new Chinese overl...

...hey, wait just one second there!

Re:Yippee can't wait (2, Funny)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731502)

You meant to say:

I for one welcome our superior Chinese benefactors!

Absolutely IMPORTANT! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730572)

Jews own and run 96% of all USA media companies. [wordpress.com] That's quite an accomplishment considering that they are a 2-3% minority. So, all of you diversity-minded folks, I have one question for you: should any single group control all of the mainstream information we see, hear, and read about? Might that be a tad over-representative of that one small minority's interests at the expense of the interests of the other 97%+ of the population? Might it be a tad dangerous for any one group to control something so vastly powerful and important as the media, something that all by itself can start wars, end wars, sway elections, and tell people what they should fear?

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (3, Insightful)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730608)

Might it be a tad dangerous for any one group to control something so vastly powerful and important as the media, something that all by itself can start wars, end wars, sway elections, and tell people what they should fear?

Might it be a tad dangerous that the media can influence people that severely? Who do you blame...the media for its influence, or the people that allow themselves to be influenced by it?

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (1)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730978)

Who do you blame...the media for its influence, or the people that allow themselves to be influenced by it?

The people.

And I think it's even worse when folks discount news from one source but believe another source - all because that particular source has a narrative that agrees with their belief system. No, it's not just Fox News viewers. Folks on the "other side" can be just as culpable.

And from the handful of Chinese people I know (sample are those who emigrated to the US so there's my grain of salt), they're pretty skeptical of the media and they've given me the impression that the average Chinese citizen is too.

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (5, Insightful)

dwandy (907337) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731158)

Who do you blame...the media for its influence, or the people that allow themselves to be influenced by it?

If the media were not influential it would be replaced by media that was.
Those that sit atop the Kingdom got there because they best understood the current game and won it.

Humans are social creatures, and ultimately a pack animal. I'm beginning to believe that the natural order for humans is in fact some sort of feudal system that has leaders ruling the pack. How the leaders are chosen varies over time but ultimately the Leaders rule the pack.

I say this in the context that it may be inherent in humans to be influenced (by those in [power|control|influential-position]).
Further, the more you are a free-thinker, anti/non-social or otherwise a non-conformist the less you are likely to accept this natural order and not only cry out against the injustice of the powerful but wonder why the rest of the people around you don't. And I suspect that most /.ers fall into some variation of this category.

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732448)

sounds like you should be browsing with Baidu not Google on principle

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731188)

Good thing we have multiple outlets then. If you don't like what DNC-NBC is saying you can switch to FOX. If you don't like FOX News you can switch to CNN or PBS. If you don't like them, there's conservative or progressive talk radio. Or the internet which has websites for everything from Communism to Anarchism

Now is better than some imagined future where government hands-out money (controls) the media.

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (1)

blair1q (305137) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731464)

All we need now is a law that makes blatant lying illegal and we'll be set.

Re:Absolutely IMPORTANT! (1)

fritsd (924429) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732274)

Those all sound American. I'm guessing you are, too. Don't you ever read news from sources from outside your own country? Just asking, not trolling..

China is the model the west wants to emulate (2, Informative)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730590)

Fuckface Leiberman and his internet kill switch. Government control of citizen access to information. You can bet your bottom yuan that when China starts producing serious IP they'll crack down on p2p. Their weak enforcement of copyright is simply Chinese mercantilism. Why send money overseas to pay for stuff that can be copied for free? Preserve capital at home. Joe Biden would love to have a Great Firewall of America.

Very disgusted with both sides of the issue. If we're not getting screwed by military-industrial complex republicans on one side it's entertainment-industrial complex democrats on the other. I find it encouraging that the one singular point far-left progressives and frothing tea-baggers can agree on is that the politicians and lobbyists trying to kill net neutrality are fucking over the American people. There is agreement on that point at least. Representation at the federal level is limited to the special interests with bucks for lobbying and campaign contributions. Left-wing or right-wing, it doesn't matter which one you are. You don't have money, you can go get fucked. Too big to fail, too little to concerned with.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (2, Funny)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730790)

- You could vote for Libertarian-republicans (like Ron Paul) who would end all wars, bring all soldiers home, and end the military-government hegemony.

- You could also join the "Free State" project to take-over New Hampshire, kickout the R's and D's, and turn into a Libertarian stronghold.

- Or you could just keep doing nothing.

Your choice. :-)

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730934)

And pander to 9/11 conspiracy nuts.

Ron Paul is a freak sideshow, not a serious libertarian candidate.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731344)

Because Ron Paul embraces 9/11 conspiracy nuts in some way?

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (2, Insightful)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732074)

There are no serious Libertarian candidates. That's the nature of Libertarianism. No serious, thoughtful person takes that ideology seriously. It makes perfect sense as explained, it just doesn't happen to jive with the reality of human behavior, so it is forever assigned to the minds of people who choose to believe simple platitudes instead of paying attention to the vagaries and difficult-to-explain nuances of human nature.

And Ron Paul is a great example of that.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

tophermeyer (1573841) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732350)

Libertarianism is extremely useful as a fringe party. They serve as a reminder to the Republicans that there are actually real people who actually favor small government, and as a reminder to Democrats that there really are genuine conservatives out there. As a serious contender for President? No way. No Libertarian would be able to swing enough "main stream" vote.

It makes perfect sense as explained, it just doesn't happen to jive with the reality of human behavior

I have to agree 100%. Its an interesting and attractive ideal (to some), but not realistic in the real world. It serves a purpose though.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730964)

- You could vote for Libertarian-republicans (like Ron Paul) who would end all wars, bring all soldiers home, and end the military-government hegemony.

- You could also join the "Free State" project to take-over New Hampshire, kickout the R's and D's, and turn into a Libertarian stronghold.

- Or you could just keep doing nothing.

Your choice. :-)

Change the last one to "just keep doing nothing.except bitch about it" and you will have 99% of the population happy.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (2, Informative)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730992)

Sorry dude...I agree with many of Ron Paul's ideas, but just like any other politician, he promotes and cares only about his own agenda, other people's opinions be damned.

He listens to other people, he respectfully responds, I'm not denying that...but in the end, if you don't agree with him, there is absolutely no way he would ever change his way. Someone that rigid shouldn't be in charge.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731450)

Right, because we all know that the people who are in charge listen to what the people want... Look at Obama, he basically shoved bills down people's throats because he could, I don't consider Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. to have been all that listening to what people wants. I'm not saying that Ron Paul would be a perfect candidate, but it certainly would be a step in the right direction. People -don't- want costly wars to continue, people -don't- want hyperinflation caused by our country's spending addiction, people -don't- want needless "wars" on "drugs" that cost the tax payers millions, people -want- sane immigration reform so we don't need laws like Arizona's. The American people really only elected Obama because they didn't want another Bush, if they thought that a third party candidate could win, I'm sure that many of them would have voted for a candidate that shared their beliefs.

Case in point, I wrote to all of my senators, my representative, and the president about various issues. All I got back was essentially a propaganda piece saying that they are voting against what I wish that I should be happy because of it.

All politicians suck, but really, honestly, I think Ron Paul sucks less than any other major politician we've had in Washington in the last 25 years.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731462)

>>>Ron Paul promotes and cares only about his own agenda, other people's opinions be damned.

And that makes him different from the rest of us, in what way? We ALL do that - following our own agenda/beliefs. Besides I happen to agree with his agenda (downsize government, pay off the debt, restore freedom in a Pro-Choice fashion, end all wars), so I'm just fine to continue supporting him and others like him. PLUS he keeps getting reelected so apparently his home town likes him too. They are satisfied with how he does his job.

Did you know he's the only Congressman who *returns* money at the end of each year? Rather than spend the annual congressional allowance on himself or new office furniture, he sends almost all of it back to the People's treasury. We need more representatives like that.

And less like this dude (Congressman assaults citizen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM [youtube.com]

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731712)

All I'm saying is that someone who's views are so set that he would never possibly change them shouldn't be in charge.

Yes, I'm aware that this is what most politicians do...which is why I rarely vote:-)

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731498)

>>>He listens to other people, he respectfully responds, I'm not denying that...but in the end, if you don't agree with him, there is absolutely no way he would ever change his way. Someone that rigid... Oh wait. I thought we were discussing Congressman Paul, not President Obama. Sorry about that.

;-)

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0, Troll)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731662)

>>>He listens to other people, he respectfully responds, I'm not denying that...but in the end, if you don't agree with him, there is absolutely no way he would ever change his way... rigid...

Ooops. I thought we were discussing Congressman Paul, not President Obama. Sorry about that.

;-)

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732150)

So true. He is a perfect embodiment of an ideologue.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (5, Insightful)

eln (21727) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731356)

Sorry, but as much as I disagree with much of what the current power base does, I'm not quite ready to join a bunch of raving nutters who think the solution is to abolish government entirely or return us to some imagined utopia that never existed where the economy was always stable and everyone was always prosperous (seriously, look up some of the many financial collapses that occurred while we were on the gold standard). Ron Paul has some good ideas but he also has some that range from the wildly impractical to the borderline insane.

The Free State Project is basically an example of a few hardcore extremists being cheered on by a bunch of the same people you decry: they sit around and complain but when push comes to shove, they do nothing. That project has been around for many years, and so far the vast majority of people who claim to support it aren't moving and have no real concrete plans to move. Even if they somehow got enough people to move they'd quickly realize what has become apparent in some of the tea party organizations: beyond a general anger at the government, the people in the movement agree on very little. They have no unified plan as to how to fix any of our problems other than "kick everyone out and stop taxing me", which is not really a useful plan.

The people on the extreme right today have the same problem as the extreme left of the 1960s: they're great at protesting and getting attention, but they have no real practical solutions to any of the problems we face. They're heavy on idealism and ideology but very light on pragmatism and reason. They don't represent a feasible alternative to what we have now, which is why they have so much trouble gaining traction beyond their far-right base, and why we're still stuck with the same old government we've always had.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732094)

Right on, the creed of the modern politician seems to be, "If reality contradicts our ideology, reality obviously must be wrong". This is why I miss Clinton, he was without a doubt the most pragmatic president in my lifetime*(technically I was alive when Carter was president, but only for a few months).

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732132)

Goodness, it would be awesome if all the Libertarians would move to New Hampshire and squawk to themselves so the rest of us don't have to hear about it anymore. Don't get me wrong, I love New Hampshire, I went to college there and it's a beautiful place. But if we can find a corner of the country to keep all the kooks, that would be swell. Even better, it would be a wonderful teachable example of how that kind of immoderate ideology leads to ruin, but it would be sad to watch a great state go on for probably several decades or longer before its implosion was too much for even Libertarians to ignore. We would all watch in amazement, shaking our heads in disbelief.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (5, Informative)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730800)

"far-left progressives" do not exist in America [politicalcompass.org] , at least not by any definition of "left" that the rest of the world is used to. The Overton Window [wikipedia.org] has shifted Americans so far to the right they no longer know what is left unless it is so extreme as to have a Hammer and Sickle stamped on it.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731420)

Meanwhile in Sweden we for once have a "right" government, something we rarely have, but the explanation for that is fairly easy to figure out using the same webpage:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart [politicalcompass.org]

(Over (current) "right" is very left for an American.)

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732672)

MOD UP That was a highly enlightening link.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731522)

I'm left. I'm from the US. I know exactly what I am.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0, Troll)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731640)

You merely demonstrate that left and right are not adequate to describe political philosophies.

For example Democrats are "left" liberal when it comes to sex, but right authoritarian when it comes to sucking money out of your wallet (and fining you for not buying hospitalization, or hybrid cars, or solar panels, or whatever). I would never vote for them because I don't like Authoritarian parties. Their policies remind me of Mussolini ("corporatist" by his own self description). Now maybe that idea could work in the real world, but it strikes me as being very anti-choice.

As for EU Socialism, this is how I define it:

- You work your ass off earning money.
- I sit here and take it from you (weekly handout), while watching TV or the internet
- Thanks sucker.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731840)

You Paultards are even lulzier than the average internet libertarian.

Thanks for the laughs.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732534)

For example Republicans are "right" authoritarian when it comes legislating what you do in your own bedroom, and "right" authoritarian when it comes to sucking money out of your wallet (through corporate monopolies and subsidizing big business and the richest with huge tax breaks). I would never vote for them because I don't like Authoritarian parties. Their policies remind me of Mussolini ("corporatist" by his own self description). Now maybe that idea could work in the real world, but it strikes me as being very anti-choice.

As for US Conservatism, this is how I define it:

- You work your ass off earning money for a minimum wage too low to survive on.
- I sit here and take it from you (as CEO of the same corporation) by charging monopoly prices, while jerking off all day at work and contributing nothing to society
- Thanks sucker.

Commodore, thanks again for contributing your idiocy to slashdot.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (3, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732544)

No, they are here, too [cpusa.org] , they just don't get taken as seriously in the US because Americans tend to put priorities on different things, and don't trust government (this goes for people on the left and the right. No one wants the government to know your search results, for example). Really, look at this quote from that group I linked to:

Socialism will meet the needs of the great majority of our people and lay the basis for solving our social, economic and environmental problems.

Now tell me, do you personally as an American trust government to meet the great majority of your needs? I could be wrong, but I don't think many people would say yes.

The whole dichotomy between left and right is so flawed that it is more a tool used to divide us than anything meaningful. For example, I favor government that works: I don't care if healthcare becomes state-run or remains independent as long as the more serious problems are fixed. I don't care if gays get married or do anything else they want, as long as it's not hurting other people. I do favor freedom to use guns, and all other basic freedoms. I do think we should help people who need help, whether with a welfare program or some weird faith-based initiative like Bush was pushing, I don't care, as long as it works.

A lot of people don't fit into the left-right mold, and breaking into teams only serves to help those who want us to be fighting (ie. politicians who are always looking for a reason why you should vote against the other guy). Don't give in to their manipulation, instead favor government that works.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730864)

Preaching to the choir, friend.

Cut out the swearing, put it on headed paper, and send it to your elected representative. Otherwise, you're just another armchair revolutionary.

Re:China is the model the west wants to emulate (1)

Myopic (18616) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732374)

Is it better to complain to your fellow man, who might listen, or to complain to your representative, who certainly will not?

I can see it both ways.

Slashdot running CPC propaganda? (3, Insightful)

swb (14022) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730726)

That's what this reads like, pro-China PR. Bad round-eye company kicked out, good Chinese company on to world domination!

The only thing missing is the agitprop poster of the worker leading the masses to victory.

Not "Changing Strategy" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730742)

"Changing strategy"?!

The impression I got from this article [cnn.com] is that Google has pretty much, 100% caved in to the Chinese government. They want their business license renewed (this coming Wednesday), so Google will be going back to business as usual and censoring google.cn.

Way to grab publicity and then not follow through at all, Google.

OMG BAIDU Porn! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32730782)

Baidu: Image search Naked [baidu.com]

I see a bunch of naked men on Baidu! So, that's what the whole pornography ban in China was all about! They're trying to assault our heterosexual christian american values!

Clearly, Baidu needs to be banned in China as well! Go get them, great leader!

Re:OMG BAIDU Porn! (1)

game kid (805301) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731006)

It's not porn! It's graceful exhibition of things of nature by the glorious Workers of the People's Republic!

The great and supreme workforce of nature, guided by the great leader the Paramount Leader, is far too mighty and virile for blonde dyed plastic filth like American "porn"!

Re:OMG BAIDU Porn! (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731552)

by the glorious Workers of the People's Republic!

No, it was mostly foreigners, atleast the images I checked.

Probably more like "huhu, crazy ass Brits! Look how they go out naked in their parks!"

Baidu sucks (1)

jdc18 (1654245) | more than 4 years ago | (#32730812)

The whole model of Baidu it is not going to work outside of China, restricted searches, you can pay to rank higher, it doesnt work in other languages, and the search engine sucks. You get a lot of false positives in the related searches in between the Great Firewall of China and Baidu. I think not using google and using baidu cripples more the chinese. There are a lot of information usefull in site like blogspot.com that are blocked by default, or even youtube is quite handy for tutorials and howtos.

Seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731020)

This doesn't give Baidu anything. All it does is screw China. This nonsense smacks of the DPRK's "win" in the World Cup.

Uh, going dark? (2, Insightful)

roothog (635998) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731166)

How on earth is this considered "going dark"? Google will no longer automatically redirect to .hk, but they're doing that specifically so they stay up in China. What's happening is the opposite of going dark.

Re:Uh, going dark? (1)

Mouldy (1322581) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731820)

Google need an IPC license to continue to operate 'in the light' - these licenses are given by the Chinese government. Google's license is up for renewal (which they applied for today). They're hoping that by making the redirection to Hong Kong servers manual they'll be on right side of the law and so get a their license renewed.

The original blog post [blogspot.com] makes the mention of "going dark" - but that's only if Google's IPC license isn't renewed by the Chinese government.

The BBC [bbc.co.uk] have a good article on this too.

Hire US folks? (1)

Seakip18 (1106315) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731432)

Honest question:

Does it really make sense to try and hire US software folks? Is local talent that bad that Baidu looks for US folks or folks outside the US?

The US has good software folks, but is it really that much better than places like Brazil, etc., where Baidu could probably get a bigger bang for their buck if global growth is a priority?

Re:Hire US folks? (1)

decipher_saint (72686) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731510)

Imagine Baidu building a search engine for various regions where censorship is desired. They'd certainly corner the market on oppressing information (if that's profitable I don't know).

Re:Hire US folks? (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731818)

> They'd certainly corner the market on oppressing information (if that's
> profitable I don't know).

Profitable for the Chinese government? Of course. They'd gain influence over governments that made Baidu the sole permitted search engine in their territories while flooding such nations with pro-Chinese propaganda.

Re:Hire US folks? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32731514)

Perhaps they mean abducting Google employees and replicating the google setup on their datacenter?

Re:Hire US folks? (1)

aliquis (678370) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731630)

Maybe it's partly company/brand image?

Like: "Look at us! We've got the best people out of the US!"

"this good Chinese farmer/Indian" may not have the same impact.

Re:Hire US folks? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32732624)

Every U.S. software engineer under Chinese employment is one less U.S. software engineer being hired to circumvent Chinese censorship, and ultimately, one less stumbling block to the inevitable invasion by the PRC of remaining portions of the world as a means to recover China's investment funding when other countries default due to Chinese financial policy.

Okay, my tinfoil hat is showing some signs of wear, but even paranoids have enemies, and let's please remember that this IS the PRC we are talking about.

So can i search for Tienanmen square on baidu? (1)

Sri Ramkrishna (1856) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731442)

I wonder if Baidu will have search results for Tienanmen Square or any other bullshit China is up to? If not, they will lose. :-) sri

If they really wanted to torque off China (3, Insightful)

Tisha_AH (600987) | more than 4 years ago | (#32731690)

To really rub China the wrong way Google should move all "Chinese" operations to Taiwan with a statement that google.cn will still be available in the one bastion of free Chinese, Taiwan.

What will Google do? (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732278)

Buy into Baidu, of course. And the ad severs are still working..

Huh? (0, Troll)

rgviza (1303161) | more than 4 years ago | (#32732304)

"It has announced new plans to hire US engineers to enhance its technical skills and propel its growth globally."

I thought the US was comprised of a bunch of fat, lazy, stupid people and behind the curve on technology. Now we're able to enhance the technical skills of foreigners? They must be referring to the foreign students here for a technology education because US citizens are far too stupid. No, I got it! We elected Obama so now we must be smart! /sarcasm off

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