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Some Google Searches Now Blocked In China

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the trial-balloon-target-practice dept.

Censorship 84

bannable writes with this from the Wall Street Journal: "Google Inc. said that its Web search service in mainland China was partially blocked Wednesday, the deadline for the company to extend its Internet operating license in the country. The company said the blockage appeared to affect only search queries generated by mainland China users of the company's Google Suggest function, which automatically recommends search queries based on the first few letters a user types into the search box."

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frist psot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749466)

china is pants

China says (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749516)

Of course google, you can play nicely with us, just jump through our hoops! [imageshack.us] .

North china is best china.

Doesn't that happen anyways? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749588)

When I type in "Hent" it doesn't prop up any suggested searches, despite there being a popular and obvious topic, even with safesearch off.

*AC to hide my dirty little secret.

Re:Doesn't that happen anyways? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750644)

Cowboy Beb^W^WCowboyNeal knows your secret.

A dark day... (1)

boneclinkz (1284458) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749624)

China! Why you censor Googre? You number ten!

jack (2, Insightful)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749630)

This issue is so simple guys. Every country has their own laws, this applies US too. A Chinese company comes to US to do their business, it has to obey US Laws. If it doesn't do so, the result will be the same as google in China. I hope you guys can take a different perspective to look at this issue. I agree that democracy and freedom of speech will be the ultimate final goal where Chinese government pursuits. However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now. And the scale of governing is totally different from any other countries, since we have 1.5 billion, no other government understands how hard it is. Let me give an example in IT maybe you geeks will be easier to understand. To manage a web site with 100 visits per day is totally different than to run a web site with 1 million visits per day, geeks call it scaling, right. Such as Canada, only has 30 million population. 30 million people, we call it piece of cake. Why, beijing has 20 million people, shanghai has 30 million. Moreover, in Chinese new year, Chinese transportation system need to move 90 million people back to their hometown and get it out to cities again.

Re:jack (1)

31415926535897 (702314) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749690)

Once you have democracy and freedom of speech, then fixing poverty and hunger will happen naturally.

Re:jack (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749740)

Once you have democracy and freedom of speech, then fixing poverty and hunger will happen naturally.

Yeah, because the US and all those countries it's brought democracy to (you know, like Nicaragua) are just perfect models of social justice for the poor.

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750148)

You cannot solve neither poverty nor hunger and have everyone happy.

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749776)

How would democracy and freedom of speech solves poverty and hunger?

Like in the US, the middle class is disappearing and the gap between the poor and the rich are widening. This is (at least) partially the effect of capitalism.

Re:jack (2, Insightful)

Zephyr14z (907494) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750478)

I suppose these things haven't occurred in a country yet then? There's certainly still poverty and hunger in the western world too. Turns out, even with democracy and free speech, you still need money and food to fix poverty and hunger.

Re:jack (1)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750614)

Yeah, we've pretty much had both of those in America for a couple hundred years and change, and nobody goes hungry here anymore!

Re:jack (1)

History's Coming To (1059484) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750732)

Not in the UK it hasn't. It's certainly not on a massive scale, and it's maybe or maybe not due to a democratic system, but they're present nonetheless. I'd point to Cuba as a non-democratic country that has, on occasion, put both the US and the UK to shame when it comes to a state care system. Both democratic and non-democratic systems can bring many benefits and many harms, and without doubt neither is a panacea.

To defend your point, if this was an issue of resources rather than control then China would selectively block high resource traffic first, streamed video, flash intensive sites and the like. Google, on the other hand, generally offer a stupidly high processor-usage-to-data ratio that blocking them seems unproductive.

Re:jack (2, Informative)

perryizgr8 (1370173) | more than 4 years ago | (#32751096)

no it won't. come to india and have a look.

Re:jack (1)

frangalista (1297219) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749746)

I agree that democracy and freedom of speech will be the ultimate final goal where Chinese government pursuits. However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now. And the scale of governing is totally different from any other countries, since we have 1.5 billion, no other government understands how hard it is. Let me give an example in IT maybe you geeks will be easier to understand. To manage a web site with 100 visits per day is totally different than to run a web site with 1 million visits per day, geeks call it scaling, right.

You seem to imply here that it is necessary for the Chinese government to filter out search requests in order to solve the problems of poverty and hunger? It seems to me that if Chinese government officials were really interested in solving such problems, they wouldn't be spending such exorbitant resources to keep their own citizens in the dark about what they are doing.

Re:jack (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749914)

oh man. I didn't imply what you said man. Please don't mispresenting it, thanks

Re:jack (1)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753484)

heya,

Actually, you did imply that.

Your argument seems to be that there are bigger fish to fry in China - namely poverty, hunger etc. I'd probably add things like the growing male-female ratio, the general spoit-ness of many of China's one-child-policy children ("Little Emperors"), pollution and rampant degradation of the environment, and a accepted culture of greed and corruption.

And sure, those are bigger issues.

So why exactly is the Chinese government scared that people will say, find search results on Tienanmen Square? Or on Tibet? You realise it's expending a not-inconsequential amount of money and resources into hiding these things from it's people.

You say:

However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now.

So why are they *wasting* more effort into trying to fool their own people? Why not just let the internet be free, which would require less effort, and free up resources for other things? Why waste effort trying to be dishonest? Sorry, but your arguments don't appear to be very coherent or well thought out.

Cheers,
Victor

Re:jack (4, Insightful)

cparker15 (779546) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749772)

I agree that democracy and freedom of speech will be the ultimate final goal where Chinese government pursuits. However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now.

Democracy/freedom and poverty/hunger are not mutually exclusive issues. I'm sure that, with 1.5 billion people, China can manage to pool enough resources to multi-task and focus on more than one issue at a time.

Everything else you said is really just an attempt at justifying a perceived need for authoritarianism. Please understand one small, simple idea: There is never a need for authoritarianism.

Re:jack (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750028)

Thanks for your point cparker. I agree there are a lot problems for Chinese government. And we like to hear critics from other people now. Critics always make thing better, especially for government. However, Do you agree we need to do it step by step? Democracy/freedom is not a one time thing, it can't happen in one day. It took western countries 2 or 3 hundred years to reach the democracy level now. It is only 30 years for China, what do you expect, guys. China has opened door to the world for 30 years now. Do you agree we have made a lot progresses now? which includes the contribution to the world economy crisis last year, and now it is still contributing. For US, after the freddie Mac and freli Mac pull of the market, Chinese govenment take almost all the invoice of it. That is about 400 billion US dollars guys.

Re:jack (1)

e065c8515d206cb0e190 (1785896) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750160)

Wrong again. China borrows from the U.S. because it's their own commercial interest. If anything, it's only creating trade imbalances. You make it sound like "China gave the US a $400b check", but that's not the case *at all*.

Re:jack (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32752404)

If you don't want it, that is ok dude.

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750604)

It took western countries 2 or 3 hundred years to reach the democracy level now.

Wrong. You're marginalizing history. The US's system of "democracy" hasn't undergone significant change since the 1790s. Equal rights amendments -- as you will likely point out -- simply isn't on the same scale. Recognition of equal status means nothing without an open government behind it.

Re:jack (1)

Monchanger (637670) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750786)

It took western countries 2 or 3 hundred years to reach the democracy level now. ... China has opened door to the world for 30 years now. Do you agree we have made a lot progresses now?

Comparing China to the development of democratic philosophical theory is misguided. You want to compare development of democracy in China to its development in other specific emerging modern nations. Ideally in nations where it was previously absent. The United States' democracy has been stable for much of the 200 years you mention, where progress was improvement upon an already solid democratic foundation.

It took not just us Americans, but humanity itself, eons to figure out that leaders should derive their power though consent of the people, that members of government should have strict time limits, and that citizens should enjoy certain rights which their government would not allowed to restrict. And it took under two decades for the USA to create the modern concepts of constitution and bill of rights, including a first failed attempt with articles of confederation*.

China has done none of this in the past thirty years, and seems from the outside to make little if any progress towards any goal. Chinese citizens still enjoy no rights which the nondemocratic government respects. Life is not sacred, you can be killed by the government at whim. Liberty is reportedly a joke, starting from restrictions on movement (from the country to the cities for example), religion is restricted, and maneuvering the legal system is an exercise in futility. And as discussed here, the government restricts attempts or imagined attempts to bring political change.

The only area you might suggest China is advancing is the area of property rights, where its citizens are finally starting to move away from classic third-world country poverty. But again, this is mostly restricted to the cities, and even there working conditions are nowhere near modern western standards.

The people of China benefit from everything the rest of the world has already figured out. We know how to construct various types of decent representative governments you can pick and choose from. We know where labor unions work and where they fail. We've learned a lot about how to conduct trade, regulate industry, limit corruption. We've know how to keep an executive branch in-check. None of this is perfect, as my American friends will surely point out, but compared to a pre-modern society it's a great start. And like I've said, China could use the boost.

* (And that was done when there were a couple other things going on, so no China can't hide behind famine and poverty which democratic India was just as stricken by early on.)

Re:jack (3, Interesting)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750274)

There is never a need for authoritarianism.

This is really an interesting question, because democracy requires a certain amount of maturity by the populace. Just like freedom of speech; are you willing to let your neighbor say annoying things to guarantee that right to yourself? Are you willing to give your neighbor that you hate the freedoms of democracy so that you might also live in a fair country?

My sister went to Jordan recently, and talked to a Christian man who said, "Democracy is great for America, but I don't want it here. If there were democracy, the majority will kill and persecute us small minority Christians." And he was right, there are problems with having a king in Jordan, but he maintains peace.

Democracy requires maturity, and not so long ago, the Chinese people didn't have it. The cultural revolution was a populist movement: it was encouraged by Mao, but the destruction and misery was supported and largely run by the people.

How will we know when the Chinese people are ready for a non-authoritarian government? When they rise up and demand it. It's not wise to try to force it on them.

Re:jack (1)

spinkham (56603) | more than 4 years ago | (#32752970)

I agree with you. China is not ready for democracy.

The point is that if we allow the Chinese government to continue it's broad censorship with no challenge, they never will be.

I know a number of Chinese students who moved to the US on student visas. It takes about 2 years before they see that the Chinese gov't isn't as perfect as they were told, and that freedom of the press might do them some good.

Re:jack (1)

Vasheron (1750022) | more than 4 years ago | (#32758440)

Increasingly it has been my view that the United States, and indeed the entire Western world, should follow a cultural prime directive.

Re:jack (1)

cozzbp (1845636) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750434)

I agree that democracy and freedom of speech will be the ultimate final goal where Chinese government pursuits. However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now.

Won't democracy and freedom of speech help solve such issues as poverty and hunger? The free market tends to have that effect...

Re:jack (1)

the_womble (580291) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753550)

The free market can help economic growth, but:

1) A free market has nothing to do with democracy of freedom of speech - look at Singapore, which has free markets but limited political freedom, or look India in the 1970s which had democracy and free speech with state control of the economy (huge state sector, tightly regulated markets).
2) A free market can leave people in poverty because the greater total wealth is unevenly distributed.

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32751040)

What do you call authoritarianism? We elected Bush for 8 years. Our "free" capitalism system crushed? We let CIA do everything they can to maintain our way of life.What is motivation for them to be like us?

Re:jack (1)

mcferguson (733767) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749796)

Good point -- we act like sheep and obey unjust laws! Nothing ever bad has happened from taking that attitude.

Re:jack (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749910)

> Every country has their own laws, this applies US too

And Nazi Germany. Sometimes, when you see a wrong being done, you want to try and put it right - even in the face of a hundred million dullards who believe everything their government tells them. You own government doesn't have to be right all the time for its citizens to know something smells bad somewhere else.

Re:jack (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750074)

haha. Actually, this issue is not that bad in China. Nobody cares about it, everybody is working hard to make their lives better. Only you guys always make a big deal of it.

Re:jack (1)

e065c8515d206cb0e190 (1785896) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750366)

What about the guys killed by the government in the back of the "justice vans"? Do they care?

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750370)

People do care [wikipedia.org] , you just don't hear about them because you don't have freedom of speech. You don't know how good or bad your government is because they control everything you know. They could have killed everyone in an entire town last night and you still wouldn't hear about it because no one could report on it. They could be responsible for poisoning children, and then blame it on baby-food makers, but you wouldn't know because they control they news.

When you control the press, you control what people think. And they control what you think.

Re:jack (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 4 years ago | (#32751082)

I actually went to china a few years ago and it would probably suck a lot less if people smiled more. No-one smiled there. I'm talking about szenchen. Something like that. I went for a day or so from Hong Kong. People smile in Hong Kong - it's full of life and colour. I guess that's the difference between a free country and a fucked up shithole full of miserable corrupt police and people too stupid or scared to see how every aspect of their lives is controlled by people whose only goal is to prevent change. Do you want to prevent change? Do you think that Europe, Japan, the US would be better if it were also run as a sort of shit dictatorship by ridiculous looking leaders wearing bad suits, and where people don't get to make important decisions about their own lives? Or do you grudgingly accept that things DO need to change, but you're too scared to do anything about it because you don't want to end up like those guys in Tiananmen Square? (Don't tell me - that was all made up by the west and never actually happened...actually it was a road accident and 2 people were hurt, right?)

Re:jack (1)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749952)

There's a notion that some things transcend laws. Some rights are inherent to being a sapient being.

Now some people can threaten you into not exercising those rights, and you might even convince yourself that you don't have them, but you do.

It's an esoteric concept, sure, and might not have practical application to a pragmatist, but it drives these sorts of policy decisions. If the laws of China cause its government to threaten its people into not exercising their fundamental rights, then the laws and the government are wrong.

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750012)

Freedom of speech is above poverty, even hunger.

If the impoverished and hungry cannot speak out do they exist? How would you know if you couldn't find out?

There are poor/hungry people in every country, the difference between China and say, Canada is that Canada knows roughly how bad the problem is and the Canadian public has access to that information through various sources outside the Government.

You'll never get action on important social subjects with censorship in place, it's that simple.

Re:jack (1)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750068)

However, they are not the most important issues in China now.

I fail to understand how freedom and democracy would undermine China's economy. Please explain this in simple terms.

Re:jack (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750278)

Because when a society changes too quickly it become unstable. Remember the 1960's? Or the collapse of the Soviet Union? More than 20 years later Russia has yet to recover.

Re:jack (1)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753598)

Well they got freedom, but not democracy.

Because there is a food/freedom tradeoff? (1)

e065c8515d206cb0e190 (1785896) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750086)

Parent could not be more wrong. India has its fair share of poverty and issues linked to population, yet does not need authoritarian laws to handle things. There is no justification for hiding from or lying to your citizen.

Re:jack (5, Insightful)

bhagwad (1426855) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750112)

India has 1.14 billion people - and the area is smaller too. Both have done a decent job so far at reducing slums and poverty [business-standard.com] given their restraints. So how come China needs to censor the Internet and remove freedom of expression when India is more or less ok with it?

Re:jack (1)

FarHat (96381) | more than 4 years ago | (#32773042)

India also blocks various websites, just a much smaller number. e.g., savitabhabhi.com was blocked not too long back.

Re:jack (1)

bhagwad (1426855) | more than 4 years ago | (#32773132)

No one's denying there's a long way to go. But to compare India's censorship with China's is fairly absurd...

China's censorship is systemic and institutional. India's is on knee jerk basis. And it can always be challenged in court as well.

Really? That's your argument? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750172)

So you will blindly follow the Patriot Act laws here because after all, it's "the law"?

Re:jack (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750192)

Freedom of speech allows you to fix things in government. For example, there is never a reason to arrest parents of earthquake victims [telegraph.co.uk] because they want to know why their children died [bbc.co.uk] . Disasters like that have happened in free countries too, but because the government hasn't been able to cover it up, standards have gotten better. Now, as a result, in China, maybe YOU will be the next one to die in an earthquake because of a corrupt government who tried to hide things.

Freedom of speech matters.

Re:jack (3, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750238)

Legal != moral

It's illegal in a lot of nutball Muslim countries for a Muslim to convert to Christianity (by penalty of death). That doesn't mean I can escape criticism when my company starts helping the authorities hunt Christians by saying "Hey, I'm just obeying the law."

Re:jack (2, Insightful)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750246)

This issue is so simple guys. Every country has their own laws, this applies US too. A Chinese company comes to US to do their business, it has to obey US Laws. If it doesn't do so, the result will be the same as google in China. I hope you guys can take a different perspective to look at this issue.

You'll probably find that many people here understand this. But cultural diversity is not an absolute excuse behavior. We find this behavior despicable whether it is the Chinese government or (as it is occasionally want to do) our own.

I agree that democracy and freedom of speech will be the ultimate final goal where Chinese government pursuits. However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now. And the scale of governing is totally different from any other countries, since we have 1.5 billion, no other government understands how hard it is. Let me give an example in IT maybe you geeks will be easier to understand. To manage a web site with 100 visits per day is totally different than to run a web site with 1 million visits per day, geeks call it scaling, right.

I see that solving issues of poverty and hunger are closely driving the Chinese Government's interaction with Google. If only there were a few less searches for Tienanmen Square or the Falun Gong, China would have these issues tied up. Alas, Google has caused untold poverty with images of anonymous men standing in front of tanks rather than serene city squares. The issues with pornography simply don't have to be commented on as this is a world-wide problem.

Or maybe one has nothing to do with the other. Or, at least... not in the way presented. There might be a point about scaling. Top-heavy, authoritarian systems tend to scale very poorly. And it would seem that Chinese government is a wonderful example of authoritarian bureaucracy at work.

Re:jack (1)

TranceThrust (1391831) | more than 4 years ago | (#32751524)

First off, where did the news-item say this was a bad thing? Don't play victim over nothing.

Secondly, of course you're right. Anyone who argues against sovereignty of a country's government over its own country is not thinking straight.
If one thinks censorship is bad, then of course the Chinese (government) is bad as well, but this may be too quick to judge. But let's not forget the other guilty party in this case, one which can more easily be judged: Google, rooted in a free (uncensored, 'not evil') society model, whom knowingly entered a censored market. Playing along with your government, only to later on -hypocritically- state they don't want do censorship. After failing to get local web search dominance and cyber attacks from Chinese.
The latter one most likely due to your government. Which is inexcusable, no matter how you'd put it, but sadly also unprovable.

Re:jack (1)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753406)

heya,

Ok, from your nickname and your English, as well as the slant of your comment, I'm going to take a stab that you're Chinese? You've definitely drunked their kool-aid there.

As another commenter noted, I fail to see how the Chinese government needs to censor and hide things (like say, the Tianamment massacre) from it's own people to help solve poverty and hunger? It takes more effort to do lie and mislead people - effort that could be better redirected to other things.

You claim that they're focused on fixing those things right now. Actually, no, they're not, the CCP couldn't give a flying f*ck what the poor-rich divide is, or what China's Gini coefficient is. Or what long term social impacts say it's, one-child policy is having. They're just interested in maintaining their own power-base. You can argue that Western countries are similar, but I'd have to say, the fact that we value transparency and try to keep our politican accountable definitely goes some way to mitigating that.

You realise that trying to lie and mislead your own public *takes more effort*. By you're own logic, they're wasting efforts trying to fight an arms race here against their own people, simply so that they can save face - when they should be redirecting that money into say, poverty and hunger, like you claim.

And it's well-proven that things like democracy, and free speech lead to better outcomes in the future. If say, the government is corrupt, or they're not doing enough to fight poverty, I can come out here and say it, and make noise. In China, well, I'm pretty sure I'd find myself threatened by a couple of Communist party thugs quite quickly, and maybe they'd try to beat me around a bit.

The Chinese government always tries to say "Oh noes!, You don't understand Chinese culture! You don't understand our people!" They like being oppressed and mislead to. It's like Jackie Chan, and his immature comment that the Chinese people "need to be controlled", as if they're like little children (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/18/jackie-chan-chinese-peopl_n_188541.html).

As a Chinese person, I find that offensive. Now, I know people in the mainland have been sucked in by the hype, and they're happy to not rock the boat as long as the riches keep flowing. It's probably that, and a combination of old-fashioned Confucianism. But at the end of the day, the truth will hit them.

As a sidenote, look at Japan. Sure, there's corruption there, I'm sure, as in any other places. But they subscribe to Confucianism, and the whole deference to power-structures, much as we do. Yet they seem to mix it in with good mix of honour and good conduct (even if some of that is purely cursory, or superficial). You compare that to the rampant greed, corruption and end-justifies-the-means that seems to run rampant back home, and it's quite saddening. Hopefully, as the society improves, that will change.

Cheers,
Victor

Re:jack (1)

the_womble (580291) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753518)

However, they are not the most important issues in China now. In order to fix that, we have to fix poor and hunger now. And the scale of governing is totally different from any other countries, since we have 1.5 billion

India has a population that is almost as large, and it has fairly free speech, democracy, and it is dealing with poverty about as effectively. The EU has a population of about 500 million, which is significantly small but still on a similar scale.

As for obeying national laws, laws may be moral or immoral. Consider a business dealing with South Africa in the apartheid era: would it have been right for them to obey or break the law?

Re:jack (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32754128)

After reading all you guys' comments, I feel you guys are so funny. There is one thing come out of my mind "Wolololo" Damn Americans always interfering!!!" Get the fuck out of other countries, and go back to your own in-minded-super-power US, and fix your own fucking problems.

Re:jack (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | more than 4 years ago | (#32840930)

Every country has their own laws, this applies US too. A Chinese company comes to US to do their business, it has to obey US Laws. If it doesn't do so, the result will be the same as Google in China.

China is well within their rights to tell a foreign company to GTFO. Until China grows enough backbone to put its foot down, Google can do whatever it wants.

it makes me wonder (2, Interesting)

digitalsushi (137809) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749656)

What are my obligations as a human being to run an open proxy for IP addresses that come from China? (i.e. drop the rest of the IPs to keep freeloaders out); I am torn between the trouble *I* can get in for blindly proxying traffic, versus the feel good vibe from letting someone get onto the unfiltered net. Thoughts?

Re:it makes me wonder (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749750)

Do it, just make sure you're behind a proxy.

Re:it makes me wonder (1)

Spazed (1013981) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749806)

At the very least I doubt your ISP would be very happy about it. At worst you are responsible for any traffic that goes in and out of your system. Since you won't be able to prove your machine was acting as a botnet operative, but you instead let unknown people into your system, you will be liable for anything they download/do. So hacking, child porn, bestiality, terrorist threats, etc will all be on you.

While it is a noble burden to bear at first glance, the idea of letting people I don't know onto any of my networks(even if it is secluded from my own machines) does not sit well with me.

You probably don't have any worries from the Chinese government directly, but I also don't know what penalties there are for helping someone in another country commit a crime that isn't illegal where you are.

Re:it makes me wonder (1)

cyfer2000 (548592) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750372)

I am thinking MPAA and RIAA...

Re:it makes me wonder (1)

by (1706743) (1706744) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749810)

It's somewhat akin to smuggling guns into China for non-state-approved use [wikipedia.org] . Since this is a self-described nerd news site, we generally care more about freedom of information than the right to firearms. However, that doesn't make it against the law (be it spirit or letter). Personally, I think that freedom of information is somehow more "fundamental" than freedom to own firearms, but far be it from me to impose my morals on another people.

Re:it makes me wonder (1)

OrwellianLurker (1739950) | more than 4 years ago | (#32754790)

Our right to bear arms protects our right to freedom of information from tyranny.

Re:it makes me wonder (2, Interesting)

Zarel (900479) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749812)

What are my obligations as a human being to run an open proxy for IP addresses that come from China? (i.e. drop the rest of the IPs to keep freeloaders out); I am torn between the trouble *I* can get in for blindly proxying traffic, versus the feel good vibe from letting someone get onto the unfiltered net. Thoughts?

Well, let me tell you a story.

Way back in 2006 or so, I went on a trip to China. This was back when the Great Firewall blocked Wikipedia, and a few weeks in, I was suffering from Wikipedia-withdrawal. So I called one of my friends, who was a coder for an online MUD, and got him to set up a web proxy on the MUD's website.

I even made an edit on that proxy: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Business_Professionals_of_America&diff=prev&oldid=68970071 [wikipedia.org] - that's how I discovered their server had mod_rewrite on, and the proxy software didn't have a workaround for that. Had to get my friend to fix the quote escaping.

Anyway, three days later, the site was blocked. Nothing else happened. I mentioned it to my mom, and she said that's usually how it goes. The government passively adds blocks and deletes messages you make that it disapproves of, but it doesn't actively seek you out and tell you to stop, or otherwise punish you.

I suspect that's how it'll go if you set up a proxy. It gets blocked quickly, nothing else happens.

Re:it makes me wonder (2, Interesting)

Dwedit (232252) | more than 4 years ago | (#32751056)

Would it have made any difference if the connection to the proxy was encrypted?

Re:it makes me wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32753554)

Based on recent personal experience, if you use a proxy over an encrypted SSH connection, within a minute of being used, they send TCP reset packets to kill the TCP connection. If you tunnel the TCP (SSH) over a UDP connection... well, I don't know whether that can be done with acceptable performance.

But they didn't block the web site/mail server/proxy server (though they might not have known it was a proxy server).

Re:it makes me wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32752104)

How about a middle ground? Proxy to a whitelist of news and information sites.

first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749660)

lulz

China (3, Funny)

mfh (56) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749732)

These guys like walls.

"Wolololo"

Damn Americans always interfering!!!

Re:China (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#32749786)

These guys like walls.

"Wolololo"

Okay, that one made me laugh.

Re:China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750070)

DOUBLE digits...up your ass.

Re:China (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750104)

haha.. that is so true guys.

Google Searches Blocked In U.S. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32749924)

Where is President-VICE Richard B. Cheney?

Yours In New Orleans,
Kilgore Trout

what americans are forgetting (0, Flamebait)

nimbius (983462) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750132)

is that freedom of speech and democracy are virtually exclusive to a few nations. maybe im just approaching this from the wrong side, maybe im wrong, im perfectly willing to concede both but im at least a bit confused...

if laws in another country are different, why dont we just respect them and do business on their terms? and if we cant, then we need to stop being hypocritical and begin questioning and denying trade on more than just the internet with china in reaction to their censorship requirements.

Re:what americans are forgetting (1)

orangebook (924303) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750348)

The question is, what law has google violated? They just added a redirect from google.cn to google.hk. What's wrong with doing a redirect, which is done by thousands of websites? Why is it ok that I type google.hk and see it but not ok if it is done automatically? Which is the "local regulation" that specifies that? The answer is, there is not. And the answer is in China law is the same as government. There is not a set of rules we all play with, equally (well, there are, but they don't matter). The government decides what is acceptable and what not, and they don't even need to explain you way. And they don't.

Re:what americans are forgetting (2, Insightful)

Thinboy00 (1190815) | more than 4 years ago | (#32752200)

Human rights are universal. If the law says you don't have them, the law is wrong.

google complains like a spoilt child.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32750290)

tired hearing all this nonsense about google - a marketing company with ideas above it's station.

as a company it is in noo position to take any high moral ground - it is a leech that sells adverts along anything - and wants to pish any garbage it can as long as it can monetise it.

china is correct to have standards. we should learn from them.

Re:google complains like a spoilt child.. (1)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 4 years ago | (#32753996)

heya,

Haha, gosh, another Chinese Communist Party Lackey *grins*. They're probably paying you what, 10 yuan a day to post here? I jest.

Seriously though, I'm not sure where this ideas above it's station idea comes form? Weird. Reads like some weird Confucianistic moral tale about how people shouldn't be aspirational and should stick to their caste or something. We left those ideas behind what, a thousand years ago?

Anyhow, Google actually does a lot of good - far more than any other tech company, and in fact, far more than any company in many industries, full-stop. They've contributed consistently to the open-source community, and they've consistently been quite transparent in how they operate. They've even publically admitted being wrong on quite a few occasions - e.g. how they handled the Wifi debacle. They're not perfect, as aforesaid debacle shows, but I'd pretty sure they can take the moral high ground here against the CCP. Oh, and they've been *very* consistent from the beginning about how they feel about the free flow of information.

I'd hazard a guess that they might have contributed more to the good of society than either you or I, my friend. When death comes to claim you or I, I'm not sure whether we'd make a bigger footnote in history than Google, sad as that sounds. *shrugs*.

And interesting you should mention phishing. Man, if I had a nickel for every time some Chinese mainland idiot tried to phish or con me, I'd be richer than Ellisson, lol. I mean, take a case in point, look at this idiot, yaocard, from the mainland who tried to pass off fake 2Gb MicroSD cards as 32Gb.

http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=yaocard&Dirn=Received+by [toolhaus.org]
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6838353&postcount=33 [xda-developers.com]
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=6838938&postcount=34 [xda-developers.com]

Right, and after I confronted them about their fraud, they first tried to bribe me for USD10 to remove their negative feedback, and then said God would bless my family many times if I removed it. It's actually kind of comical, their attempts at fraud/lying.

And China has standards? Please. I assume here you're referring to how the government in China operates. There's a distinction there to Chinese culture which I have a lot of respect for because...err...I'm Chinese? Haha. The government twists the standards how it sees fit. Unless things have changed since I've been back, they're woefully corrupt, hopelessly bureaucratic, and will engage in thuggish/bullying behaviour to make you comply with whatever serves the official you're currently dealing with.. Hardly the hallmarks of a transparent government that only cares for the wellbeing of its people.

Cheers,
Victor

Random, but related (3, Interesting)

sharp3 (1195261) | more than 4 years ago | (#32750956)

On a sort of random, but related note...
A recent foray into the underworld of chatroulette led me to a conversation with two Chinese nationals, although admittedly I WAS looking for naked fat bald men... They asked me what I thought of Obama, and I told them I wasn't fond of socialist or communist policies that manage vast amounts of my paycheck for me. I asked them what they thought of their government. Their only response was a single word: "love".
It showed to me that the average Chinese citizen is keenly aware of the ability of the government to spy on them and monitor activities. It also seemed as though there was some degree of fear. Granted they weren't afraid of talking to me or asking about the United States, but talking about their own government was a big no no, and could bring reprisals.

Re:Random, but related (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32754066)

Okay, seriously, people. Communism/Socialism is the proletariat owning the Means of Production (tm). It sounds like you don't like the idea of a liberal democracy with a social safety net. Calling this Socialism/Communism is beyond absurd, and it denigrates the struggles of people who have ACTUALLY had to live through those systems.

Also, your taxes now are lower than they were under Ronald Reagan (so, according to your reasoning, does that make him Lenin incarnate?).

Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters ... (1)

bigtummy (1845864) | more than 4 years ago | (#32752796)

Can some1 tell me why Google and slashdoters care so much about Chinese citizens? their living standards, their wages, their human rights, especially their freedom of speech. I don't believe they care because they are do-no-evil angels, or they love Chinese citizens. There must be some hidden agenda. The other thing amuse me is that Google still stay in China, what a shameless company eating back its own poop it laid back in January 2010.

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 4 years ago | (#32754028)

heya,

Hmm, you realise that your broken English and silly insults are a dead giveaway that you're a Chinese troll? Lol.

I mean, "a shameless company eating back its own poop". Look, I understand that some things just don't translate well, and I'm sure if I tried to insult you in mandarin, I'd sound like a five-year-old, but do you realise how silly that sounds? Not because of your poor English, but because you provide absolutely nothing to back your arguments up. You just spout random insults, that make absolutely no sense. That, for a fact, is cross-cultural.

And please, if Google left China, you'd have what, Baidu? Sorry, but I have a lot more faith in the engineering prowess and R&D of Google and their search algorithms. You compare Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook with say, the home-grown clones that have sprung up on the mainland. Because that's essentially what they are - clones. They usually try and copy, pixel for pixel, the look and feel of what they're cloning, yet their functionality is usually sub-par.

Case in point, look at Doit.IM. I thought it was a pretty cool program, until I realised it was a blatant ripoff of Things, another GTD program:

https://i.doit.im/ [i.doit.im]
http://culturedcode.com/things/ [culturedcode.com]

http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/doit-im-free-awesome-software-for-task-management/ [addictivetips.com]

See:

[quote]Update: Reader BrianC400 notifies us in the comment that this app seems like a ripoff of Things. Since Doit.im is developed by some Chinese developers(who have history of ripping off stuffs), surprisingly it seems 80% similar to Things. Anyways, the good thing is that Doit.im is cross-platform and free while Things cost $49.95 and is for Mac OS X only.[/quote]

Or look at fanfou.com - look familiar?

http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/03/by_june_6_all_gfwed_web_services_wi.php [shanghaiist.com]

Cheers,
Victor

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 4 years ago | (#32754188)

oh.. it looks like Victor knows stuff ehh. I know you don't like my English, and I know my English is not that good. But you know why, I bet your Chinese is not as good as my English. Sorry man, I am actually Canadian Chinese, born in Canda, and grew up both in Canada and China. You know, Vancouver is kind of mixed culture, sorry about my poor English.

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 4 years ago | (#32759294)

heya,

Actually, I was replying to "bigtummy". Unless you two happen to be the same person, with two accounts?

But back to your original point - as I said in reply to you up above, my contention wasn't with your english per se. As I readily admitted up there, I'm sure if I tried to argue with you in mandarin, it would come out quite broken. My main point was that your arguments were lacklustre, and seriously lacking in any sort of solid evidence.

Your main point, that somehow China was focusing on "fighting poverty and hunger", instead of democracy was completely backwards.

Firstly, it actually costs the Chinese government more money to try to censor the internet, cover up things like Tibet and Tianamen square, and try to mislead it's own people. All of these are resources that, by your very own admission, should be better spent on say, fighting poverty or given to poor rural Chinese. Not to mention that I still fail to see the link from how a Chinese person viewing a picture of a tank running over a Chinese student will cause them to suddently be poor, or suffer from hunger? You're going to have to explain exactly how that part works.

Secondly, the Chinese government has shown little concern in the way of social equality or justice. Economic growth, yes, absolutely, but economic development or equalising the disparity between the rich and poor seems to run a distant second. Actually, make that third, or maybe fourth, behind a whole bunch of other issues, like maintaining the status quo, and quashing dissent.

So as you can see, my issue isn't with your English, per se, it's mostly with your poor and faulty arguments.

Back to the topic of English - you also seem a bit presumption. Hmm, I don't know how exactly you'd establish whether my Chinese is as good as your English? Is that something that's even comparable? *shrugs* And do you mean my mandarin or my cantonese? I speak and write both, but I wouldn't profess to be comfortable in either, to be honest. But either way, you make an assumption like that without providing any sort of backing. And you're also using a bit of a straw-man argument here.

You're distracting from the main point, which is that your whole "China is focusing on fighting poverty, so it can't be bothered with democracy" argument is completely and utterly flawed.

Cheers,
Victor

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 3 years ago | (#32780498)

hey yo buddy, are you from HongKong? If so, then we probably from the same place man.

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 3 years ago | (#32780512)

And no, I only has one account here.

Re:Can some1 answer me why google and slashdoters (1)

tianfan (1263344) | more than 3 years ago | (#32780586)

And one more thing, you can take tiananmen square thing as a point. But please don't take Tibet, you know too little about it man. I went there 4 times in last 10 years. I understand how hard the government is building infrastructure there to make their lives better. Railway, airport, state highway, free schools, free foods, free medicals.
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