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In UK, Computer Science Graduates the Least Employable

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the double-major-next-time dept.

Education 349

Rogerborg writes "The BBC reports that in the UK, computer science graduates are now the least employable of students leaving with a degree, 17% of them being unable to find a job within six months of graduation. Unsurprisingly, medics, educators and lawyers do better, but even much mocked communications and creative arts graduates are finding work more easily."

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Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770388)

Take showers before going out in public. Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a haircut. Shave. Trim your eyebrow.

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (5, Interesting)

ZeroExistenZ (721849) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770422)

Take showers before going out in public. Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a haircut. Shave. Trim your eyebrow.

[trollface.jpg]

It's a bit weird, as overhere I received news IT is picking up and infrastructure and maintenance jobs are still required; companies rely on their IT infrastructure and automation tasks.

I was talking about this with a friend and wondered how the industry would evolve, and wondering why and how many people would still pick up on information tech, as we used to have popculture around IT sparking and keeping our interest (hackers, matrix, the net, ...) while we had this "new thing to play with", visibly evolving tech, games we could improve yourselves and what have you.

These days, it doesn't seem "new" and I only encounter few students who are enthousiastic as "we used to be", and the online experience is a bit compressed to a few major sites (compared to the animated-gif glory of the turn of the millenium, where everyone had their personal webpage and everybody tried to create something).

Considering there's been a major risk in commencing IT studies (in the crisis, alot of graduates have been doing dishes instead of working, having their skills "outdated" and being replaced by the next batch of graduates the year after fe.) I got the impression it's an industry drying up and will be high in demand in a few years.

I'm really curious for other people's perspectives though..

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (4, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770562)

Take showers before going out in public. Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a haircut. Shave. Trim your eyebrow.

[trollface.jpg]

It's a bit weird, as overhere I received news IT is picking up and infrastructure and maintenance jobs are still required; companies rely on their IT infrastructure and automation tasks.

But computer science graduates don't go into IT. Thats a blue collar profession now. Installing windows and reloading printers.

I work in transport. Road and air. There is demand for software engineering pretty much wherever you look. In the UK I would expect that rail and sea transport would be more important too.

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (2, Interesting)

somersault (912633) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770726)

By the sounds of this report, computer science grads don't go into anything!

I work in IT, for an engineering company. I do occasionally reinstall Windows and reload printers, but I also maintain a couple of their technical apps and I've been developing a few web based systems for different depts which at least holds my interest. I've sometimes wondered if I left this job whether I would even stay in IT though - it's what I'm good at and it pays well, but I also have this strange urge to be a delivery driver so I can just drive around all day listening to music :P Not sure how long it would take me to get bored of that!

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (2, Insightful)

xaxa (988988) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770940)

But computer science graduates don't go into IT. Thats a blue collar profession now.

Well, that depends what the survey means by "computer science".

Here's [hesa.ac.uk] the link to the report. Find the link "Table 3" within it for a PDF of the broken down results. Note that the only IT/Computing subject is Computer Science, and it has almost as many graduates as all of the physical sciences. I think it includes IT degrees too.

In the UK I would expect that rail and sea transport would be more important too.

Yes -- and I would think rail transport has even more CS areas than road transport. As well as usage/capacity measurement/predictions and logistics, there's complicated timetables, electronic signalling, electronic ticketing, service information (on platforms, on trains, online, by text, printed)... Recently some rail-related APIs have been opened up, leading to this live train map mashup [traintimes.org.uk] (also the London Underground [traintimes.org.uk] ). Someone from my class at university works for the company that makes the London Journey Planner [tfl.gov.uk] , which is excellent. Another works for Network Rail on signalling systems, another for rail freight logistics.

Probably not even that (5, Insightful)

Moraelin (679338) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770554)

The fact that they only mention "jobs" without distinction for what job level or type, and can include arts and communication skills majors in the same statistics make me think it might be a more mundane aspect to it than "CS graduates are less employable."

More likely, some 17% of CS graduates are holding out for some programming job or higher, whereas an arts or women's studies graduate quickly comes to terms with getting a job as a receptionist or even a McDonald's job. It's not hard to notice that there are very few jobs as, say, an anthropologist studying the natives on some fabulous vacation island, or as some deluxe lobbyist for women's equality in Washington. And even if one still clings to that delusion in the long run, it's pretty obvious that another source of income will be needed until such a job becomes available.

Basically in fact a lot of the CS graduates are simply competing for a very specific slice of the employment market, with a much smaller pool of jobs. And most likely are actually _more_ employable on that slice, and no less employable than an arts or anthropology graduate in the kind of McDonald's jobs most of those will get.

And that is also not taking into account that a lot of CS and EE graduates actually have an even narrower slice in mind. E.g., most want a job making computer games, and precious few want one of those boring jobs that involve databases and java and writing unit tests. Or the elder gods forbid, maintaining a cobol program on some mainframe. Not only that has driven down wages in the games industry, but there still simply aren't half as many jobs as people who want them. A lot will spend those 6 months or a large part thereof, still hoping that Blizzard or Epic or Id will hire them, and inflate that unemployment number.

And then there are those who think they're so smart, that anything short of directly starting as senior architect and/or a 6 figure starting wage, is waay below them and in fact outright demeaning. 'Cause, you know, their mommy always told them they're so smart, and besides they wrote the most compact bubble-sort in college, _and_ had a submission to the obfuscated C contest too. So they know all about how your programs should be made, obviously. And they even used "emerge" to compile a Gentoo distro once, which makes them practically kernel hackers, right? Needless to say, some of those inflate the unemployment figure too.

In my country is just the opposite (1)

drewhk (1744562) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770770)

Currently in my country CS students could choose from as many jobs as they please. Most of the students already start working during their studies. There is also a government push to reduce the number of non-technical degrees as they cannot get a decent job.

Interesting to see that this is quite the opposite of the UK situation.

Re:In my country is just the opposite (1)

Bangalorean (1846492) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770812)

Which country is this??

Re:In my country is just the opposite (1)

drewhk (1744562) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770880)

I will not tell it explicitly, but it is in Central-East Europe.

Re:In my country is just the opposite (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 4 years ago | (#32771038)

That sounds like the general location of Poland?

Re:In my country is just the opposite (1)

guyminuslife (1349809) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770820)

Do I speak your language, and if so, how cold are your winters?

Re:In my country is just the opposite (1)

drewhk (1744562) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770914)

"Do I speak your language"

Dunno :)

"how cold are your winters?"

Average low temp (last 10 years) is 2C
lowest in 10 years is -23

Re:In my country is just the opposite (2, Interesting)

xaxa (988988) | more than 4 years ago | (#32771014)

Currently in my country CS students could choose from as many jobs as they please.

Everyone I know that did a halfway-decent CS course at an OK-or-better university has got a job very quickly. I think we need to see a breakdown by the degree and/or university.

I expect degrees like "IT and Tourism Management" (Uni. Greenwich), "IT for the Internet" (Uni. Hertfordshire), "IT Support" (Kingston Uni.), "Information Technology and Media Studies" (Uni. Wales at Lampater) to have worse job prospects than any computer science degree.

(I can't link to the list, but from here [ucas.com] click Search by Subject, I, IT, all IT courses.)

Re:Probably not even that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770790)

Cause, you know, their mommy always told them they're so smart

Absolutely agree. Kids today are raised to believe they are the best.
I'm always shocked to see my son come back from a sport competition where he miserably failed, but still he got a medal the size of my hand, and he's genuinely proud...

And then one day those kids try to get a job, and that's when they have no clue what is happening.

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (1)

jimboindeutchland (1125659) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770628)

... and don't forget the sunscreen

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770640)

Take showers before going out in public. Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a haircut. Shave. Trim your eyebrow.

All good advice, but unfortunately I don't think CowboyNeal reads all the items personally any more.

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770686)

Take showers before going out in public. Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a haircut. Shave. Trim your eyebrow.

That would kind of undercut your claim to be a programmer, wouldn't it?

Re:Job-seeking tips for computer programmers (2, Funny)

teisho (1844136) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770862)

He lost me at "going out in public." Who does that?

Nice (1)

lw0x15 (1421129) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770404)

Heh. That means I did the right choice by NOT choosing to start a computing degree this year. I'd rather keep myself to a hobbyist-linux level for now.

Re:Nice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770444)

Ya sure ya would dude. Stay lazy and do nothing as opposed to earning money and learning awesome stuffz in za real vorld ja. Totally dude ja

Re:Nice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770748)

So what degree are you starting instead? Or are you taking a year out? If you are, where are you going to work? Or maybe you'll be doing some travelling instead? While I'm at least 12% sure you're not rationalizing away your laziness/failure to get a decent course at a decent uni, I'd be interested in hearing what your alternative plans are.

Re:Nice (1)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770990)

Heh. That means I did the right choice by NOT choosing to start a computing degree this year. I'd rather keep myself to a hobbyist-linux level for now.

Jesus Christ man, do you choose your educational path solely on these type of news? Please keep yourself there and don't come into the computer industry. There is the type that doesn't know the difference between a job and a career; the later never gets cultivated thus the former devolves into sucking. We got way too many of those in the industry already.

A job? How twentieth-century. (5, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770408)

I'm in the UK, have a computer science degree (two, actually), and have never really looked for a job. I've had two books published (with a third coming out soon), and have no shortage of consulting work. It's the summer (the first one we've had in three years) and so I spend a lot of time sitting outside relaxing. Not sure why I'd want a job - I'd earn less, have to sit in an office, and have someone else telling me when I had to do work (instead of when I had to have done work by).

That said, I wouldn't employ half of the people on my undergraduate degree course to change a lightbulb, unless someone else was supervising them.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (3, Insightful)

owlstead (636356) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770436)

Well, congratulations of doing so well, but not everybody can be a high payed consultant, and if everyone was writing two books we'd be overrun by books and would have to hold book burning sessions. Be glad you've got a good set of brains and a good upbringing, but stop gloating.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (5, Funny)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770566)

What, you mean everyone isn't a randian superman like me? I'm shocked!
And if you were in my mother's basement too you could see the shock on my face!

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770582)

The point is not to gloat, but to make the point that a job is not always the right course of action for someone leaving university, and especially not in a field like computer science. There is lots of work that needs doing, but a lot of it is not in the UK. The last piece of work I did for a UK company was two or three years ago, but there is no shortage of contracting work available from foreign companies that I can do in the UK.

By placing emphasis on the idea that 'now you've got a degree, you must get a job,' a lot of former students are completely ignoring other options for earning a living. As a nice side effect for the rest of the UK, because all of my income currently comes from abroad it is providing a small boost to the local economy. This would be a much bigger boost if more people worked in the same way. Rather than being unemployed and a drain on the state, people with useful skills could be bringing money into the country.

Computer science is not the only field where this is an option. For example, a number of my friends work as freelance translators. They work on a contract basis for companies around the world, but mostly in Europe, translating things into English (or American, in some cases).

The Internet means that many kinds of work no longer require physical proximity. Just because there are no jobs for these kinds of work in the UK does not mean that it is impossible for people in the UK to be paid to do this kind of work. For sure, it's not for everyone, but I'd imagine that a lot of the currently unemployed computer science graduates could work this way if they realised that it was an option.

As a corollary, the government could do a lot to make it easier for people leaving university to become self employed, in terms of tax law and advice.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (1)

Pinky's Brain (1158667) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770738)

So ... unless you are the previous mentioned randian superman and can go to topcoder and own the place to put yourself into view how is a fresh student supposed to make himself employable for decent paying freelance work? You are competing against the usual assortment of east-Europeans/Asians etc who will underbid you. Far more than normal jobs this environment is a ruthless globalized meritocracy.

Which is not to say that trying to land some projects wouldn't be a better use of your time than doing nothing ... but for most it's going to bring in peanuts.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (2, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770852)

Open source is a good way to start. I've got quite a bit of work from companies that have seen hippyware stuff that I wrote and wanted someone to do something similar. They may be able to hire someone who is a better programmer in the general case, but not someone who has the same domain-specific experience.

The other thing to remember is that work that pays poorly can often lead to work that pays well. In the past, I've done some free work for companies that looked like good longer term prospects. They then have something beyond the typical not-very-trustworthy CV of most contractors to assess my competence and when I give them a quote for something else, they're more likely to accept it.

The writing I got via my (quite limited) participation in the XMPP standards process as an undergrad. This got me in touch with an editor, who got me some work-for-hire stuff on a Linux book (which I knew a reasonable amount about due to my participation in the university computer society). The publisher liked the work I did on this project, and so invited me to write a book by myself. That one got good reviews, which led to my next one, and to my writing a regular column for their web portal. While I was a student, I wrote a lot of articles for a local tech news startup. The startup went bust, and I never got paid for any of the work, but it gave me something to point to when I wanted other writing work.

If you expect the first contact you have with a company to lead to a high paying contract, you're going to be disappointed. If you're willing to start with small things, often for little or no money, and work up to things that pay better, then you can do quite well.

Not everyone could do this, but a lot of people can. There's a huge amount that the government and universities could do to make this easier, but sadly don't. They still compile statistics as if the only two options are 'working for a corporation' or 'claiming the dole,' so a lot of people never explore alternative options.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770956)

The key is being pro-active and proving your skills and commitment before you graduate. Offer your services (for free if necessary) to some real life companies and build up a portfolio of real, commercial experience. The main issue I see with CS recruitment is that university doesn't really teach you enough real world skills - of course this is the same for most university courses, but we don't expect a doctor or a lawyer to just turn up on day one and produce the goods, they're trained on the job, while CS grads are expected to be productive from the outset (no firm wants to offer low wages to train someone up and have them leave when they've got the commercial experience, similarly no firm wants to offer good wages to an untested graduate, so it's catch 22 unless you can do something to shift the balance or are lucky enough to find a firm that will take a punt on you).

The only way for an employer to judge if you will be productive is on past experience, which obviously puts graduates at an immediate disadvantage. If I had to guess how GP got into his current position (assuming he's not just making it up), I'd guess he got off his backside and did some work on his portfolio before he left uni, if you just assume good uni grades will land you a high paying job or freelancer contract, you're in for a shock.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770878)

there is no shortage of contracting work available from foreign companies that I can do in the UK. May you elaborate on how you get to these foreign work?

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770656)

And learning correct English spelling always helps in getting those highly paid jobs, I've found. And the best way to absorb (by osmosis) spelling is to read many of those Fine books. Semi literacy is often shown up by such mistakes as paid/payed loose/lose and a few other common ones. Firefox, with an inline spellcheck works great too.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (1)

Ash Vince (602485) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770600)

I'm in the UK, have a computer science degree (two, actually), and have never really looked for a job. I've had two books published (with a third coming out soon), and have no shortage of consulting work. It's the summer (the first one we've had in three years) and so I spend a lot of time sitting outside relaxing. Not sure why I'd want a job - I'd earn less, have to sit in an office, and have someone else telling me when I had to do work (instead of when I had to have done work by).

Just make sure you plan for the odd period where you are unable to find work. I know a few consultants who found finding work quite tricky to get the consulting work they relied on in about 2004 or so when the trend in the UK job market was to always hire permanent staff whenever possible and train them up via various government grants.

This is never going happen with our current government but remember than things change. If you are in IT for the long haul then you can be sure you will see many changes over the course of your career. Consultants and the self-employed generally do better under Conservative governments, but Labour have habit of trying to encourage people to become permanent employees so they have less scope to get creative with paying income tax.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770602)

Having a job builds character. If you had ever held a real job, you might have been inspired to post something interesting or helpful to new graduates instead of just arrogantly gloating about your minor successes and unknowingly making yourself look like an ass.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770646)

I'm also in the UK, also have a computer science degree and I'm also spending the summer relaxing. (And I'm not on the dole!)

As a former employer, my experience was that the problem isn't just the quality of the people on the courses, but the courses themselves. Many "computer science" degrees are actually piss-poor vocational courses in Java. There are few universities in the UK offering actual computer science, and I'd be surprised if any of their graduates were willingly unemployed.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (2, Interesting)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770662)

I'm in the UK, have a computer science degree (two, actually), and have never really looked for a job. I've had two books published (with a third coming out soon), and have no shortage of consulting work.

I would assume that you had a job before taking up consultancy. Very few people can become consultants straight from University.

Re:A job? How twentieth-century. (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770786)

Nope, I started freelancing during my PhD, and continued to do it full time afterwards. I had a couple of jobs while I was an undergrad, but they didn't really make me want one when I finished. I did a couple of short-term academic research jobs (one between degrees, one after the PhD), but they don't really count because they were basically being a student without getting another degree at the end. The writing work I got through talking to the right people (contacts I made while working on the XMPP standard, while I was an undergrad), and the subsequent consulting has mainly come via my involvement with open source projects.

No one becomes a well-paid consultant straight out of university (unless they have well-connected parents or something), but even while I was a student there was a reasonable amount of poorly paid contracting work available, and it's often possible to turn this into better-paid work when you've built a relationship with the company. Once you're sufficiently familiar with their operations that you can do in an hour something that someone less experienced would take a day to do, you can charge the same amount that the other person would charge for half a day and it's still good value for them.

When you're starting out, it's much more important to build a good relationship with your customers than to get paid a lot. I'll often do a small amount for free for a potential client and then give them a quote for the rest - that way they have something to judge the value of the contract to them. I don't want to work for anyone who won't be happy with my work, and no one wants to employ a contractor to do work they won't be happy with (although a depressing number of companies do).

That's the point of my post. Having a job is not the same as earning an income. You can leave university and become self employed, working for companies anywhere in the world, and being given a wide variety of interesting problems to work on. Or you can complain that there are no jobs (there certainly aren't many around here, although there are a couple of interesting startups). Most people pick option 2, and most of them do it because no one tells them that option 1 exists.

Stats (4, Interesting)

ilovegeorgebush (923173) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770414)

17% of them being unable to find a job within six months of graduation

So 83% are finding jobs within 6 months? That sounds suprisingly good if you ask me...Better than I would expect.

I hate statistics, they're so over and incorrectly used.

Re:Stats (1, Redundant)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770488)

I hate statistics, they're so over and incorrectly used.

Always?

I hate absolutes, they're so often incorrectly used...

Re:Stats (2, Funny)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770506)

This article sounds like it was only written to create employment for statisticians.

Re:Stats (2, Insightful)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770512)

So 83% are finding jobs within 6 months?

No. If 17% is unable to, it may well mean that 51% never even tried.

Re:Stats (1)

Skuto (171945) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770694)

It depends: would you have expected them to do worse than art majors?

Re:Stats (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770774)

What about if they graduated on a Tuesday? How does that affect their employment chances?

Re:Stats (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770958)

Depends on whether you're specifying that they are the CS graduate or the Arts graduate. If you're just saying its "one of them", then yes, otherwise, no.

Re:Stats (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770858)

I hate statistics, they're so over and incorrectly used.

Well, 90% of the time, anyway.

Another useful statistic... (4, Interesting)

DavidR1991 (1047748) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770426)

....would be a % of how many of those graduates actually understand anything about CS, or can apply it at all. My bet is that rather than CS grads having high unemployment, there is just a higher % of 'chaff' graduates that are just totally useless - which is likely considering CS is quite a bit more difficult to 'get' and apply than many other subjects

Re:Another useful statistic... (5, Interesting)

Shrike82 (1471633) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770534)

As a UK lecturer on a CS course I can confirm that this is part of the problem. The prevalanence of computers means that all Universities have expanded their computing facilities and continue to do so. This means they can offer more computing places, which means more and more people who don't really know anything about computers can enroll on a CS course. Lots of students stare blankly at you when you talk about directories as a tree structure, or tell them they'll be using a command line interface. They think that checking their e-mails, browsing YouTube and managing to cheat in their college computing coursework means that a CS degree will be easy. Gone are the days when a computing degree would be full of nerds and geeks. Now it's full of people that really should be out there getting a job instead of wasting time and resources in Universities that are financially stretched as it is.

Re:Another useful statistic... (1)

Skuto (171945) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770754)

Shouldn't these people just fail the courses (and hence not be in that statistic)?

Re:Another useful statistic... (5, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770952)

In theory, yes, except for two things:
  • Departments only get funding for students who complete a year, meaning that they try not to let people drop out during the year. A lot of students would be better off deciding after a month that computer science isn't what they thought it was and dropping out, but this means that the department gets no money for them, which screws up their accounting.
  • University league tables use drop out rate as a negative when scoring. If 50% of people drop out before finishing the course, the department gets a low ranking, which makes it harder to recruit students in the future. This means that departments would rather graduate you with a third or a pass than let you fail.

In CompSci in particular, a lot of people come in with no understanding of what the subject is really about. These people would be much better off switching to something else or going straight into industry, but the system is set up in such a way as to encourage departments to retain them and give them a poor quality degree.

Re:Another useful statistic... (1)

DavidR1991 (1047748) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770962)

Well that's the other flaw in these statistics: what degree did they get? A first? (Outstanding) A second? Maybe even a third?

Degrees aren't all born equal which is something else this survey ignores (which is stupid really - they may have been able to draw a trend between the degree type and the unemployment rate per subject etc.)

Re:Another useful statistic... (2, Insightful)

Spad (470073) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770594)

I did a computer engineering degree (BEng) about 8 years ago and I was quite shocked in my first year at just how little some of my course mates knew about computing. In our mandatory (across campus) "learn how to use Office and browse the internet" lab session in the first semester there were a number of people who really struggled to get a passing grade (40%), let alone a decent one. When you add to that the fact that most of our programming labs were nothing more than an exercise in creative plagiarism and it's not surprising that graduates find it hard to get a job.

You also have to remember that most CS and CE degrees are aimed at programming and hardware design (ASICs/FPGA etc), whereas a lot of those graduates go into support and administrator roles, with the belief that doing some support work for your friends on a peer to peer LAN is exactly the same as managing a multi-thousand seat domain infrastructure in a business environment.

Re:Another useful statistic... (3, Insightful)

IllusionalForce (1830532) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770612)

To be honest, a CS degree is nice and all, but personally I think, having proper, real life experience just also means more. CS needs to be rethought anyway.

That's cos they are the most expensive. (2, Interesting)

dimethylxanthine (946092) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770428)

Economics. Sorry for being obvious but I guess it doesn't make economic sense in most cases repayng years of some of the most expensive (though not the worst...) education available and at the same time paying pretty high taxes, when they can find developers in Russia, India or Ukraine at a fraction of the cost. E

Stupid enough to choose Computer Science (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770430)

They were stupid enough to choose Computer Science for a degree, so it's not surprising they can't find jobs.

I'll summarise what was in my Computer Science degree course: mathematics. I would probably have ended up with a better grade if I never touched a computer during the course.

Re:Stupid enough to choose Computer Science (1)

Zuzzy (124703) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770476)

So true. I left uni with a 2:1 in CS with a Networks specialisation and got a job, walked in and found I knew nothing about networks. In hindsight what use was a networks degree when I had never touched a router or heard of Cisco?! Yes, i could draw an IP packet structure and explain the TCP/IP protocol, not something I have ever had to do in the real world.

It is wasnt for the grad scheme, I could never have got a job in networks. I may as well have skipped uni, saved the beating my liver got, and done a CCIE

Re:Stupid enough to choose Computer Science (4, Interesting)

beelsebob (529313) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770514)

Very true, Computer Science is a true degree, in that it's an academic endeavour, not a vocational one. It sums up everything that university should be about. I only wish the software engineering courses were moved off to where they should be – vocational collages.

Note: I'm not implying CSE is in some way inferior to CS – merely that if you want a vocational qualification, you should look at a vocational collage, as should employers.

Academics on the other hand should look at university courses.

Re:Stupid enough to choose Computer Science (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770910)

Interesting... I tend to agree with you, although I've not been able to capture the acadamic properties of CS into words. CS is not scientific by induction as are most other academic endevours, so how do we categorize it?

Re:Stupid enough to choose Computer Science (2, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#32771016)

Note: I'm not implying CSE is in some way inferior to CS – merely that if you want a vocational qualification, you should look at a vocational collage, as should employers.

Good in theory, but the UK has spent a lot of time in recent decades dismantling the vocational qualifications. We've turned some first-rate vocational institutions (polytechnics) into third-rate universities. Before the government decided that everyone should go to university, people who weren't suited to an academic course would go to these, get a well-respected and valuable vocational qualification, and then use it. Now they go to a university and get a worthless degree.

In the UK, there is a perception that vocational qualifications are inferior to academic ones, which is particularly depressing when you then hear so many people in industry complaining that the people that they hired with academic qualifications don't have the vocational skills required to be useful.

I'd love to see university enrolment drop back to the levels where the only people going are people who actually want to be there and will gain some benefit from it, while people who are just putting in the time go on (potentially shorter) vocational courses that teach them things that they will find useful. Unfortunately, suggesting this in UK politics gets you branded an elitist. The result is that people get a third-rate computer science degree, rather than a first-rate software development vocational diploma.

I can't say I am surprised.... (5, Interesting)

Zuzzy (124703) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770440)

When I left 8 years ago, most of the best grads were in sponsorship schemes with the likes of Nortel and Marconi - and as it turned out they all left with no job to go to.

Given the number of people who came out of these courses, and given the number of brilliant grads in my dept who had no job for months at that time, what hope have the 60% who scraped by?

Mutliply that by the huge rise in these courses available from UK unis and ex-polys today and it isnt a surprise that McDonald's has a continuous employment pool.

And the ridiculous thing is that I have been involved in trying to fill a backlog in recruitment for about a year and there are no candidates with decent experience in the market (it would seem). So its all about that first job still.

Re:I can't say I am surprised.... (2, Insightful)

Burnhard (1031106) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770480)

This is the main issue I think. An experienced candidate is almost always preferred to an inexperienced one. During a recession this is particularly true because taking on a new member of staff is both a cost and a risk. Given the pool of experienced candidates has increased (due to immigration), I'm not surprised new UK graduates are finding it harder to find work.

Re:I can't say I am surprised.... (1)

drewhk (1744562) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770800)

Extending my earlier comment: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1705838&cid=32770770 [slashdot.org]

This is again completely the opposite in my country. If you do not have a CS degree in a prominent university you will not get a good job because graduates are given a priority. I don't know why is this the case, and why there is a difference from the UK. Anyway, I don't complain :)

Re:I can't say I am surprised.... (1)

Burnhard (1031106) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770964)

All else being equal. I mean existing graduates with CS degrees, rather than new ones. I wouldn't want to be a developer without a degree no-matter how much experience I had.

Who studies C.S.? (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770442)

All the computer science uber-gods were mathematicians, physicists and engineers by training anyway.

People who start with math, physics because it's challenging often end up in computers because it's fun.

People who aim for C.S. often seem to because they felt there would be a well-paying job, perhaps? I still can't believe you can get a degree for writing code.

C.S. Lewis' Principle of First and Second Things applies.

Mark me as a troll if you like, it won't alter the grain of truth in this...

Re: Who studies C.S.? (5, Insightful)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770584)

All the computer science uber-gods were mathematicians, physicists and engineers by training anyway.

That kind of follows naturally from the fact that CS didn't exist before they got their degrees and invented it.

Re:Who studies C.S.? (1, Insightful)

AlexiaDeath (1616055) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770620)

Today's IT don't need a bunch of uber-gods. It needs competent people building usable IT systems based on good practices of C.S. That's what C.S graduates should be. Some schools make a thinking pros, others produce trained monkeys. Both are needed in a sensible balance but what fails in employment process is distinguishing if a trained monkey or a thinker was needed and witch category does the person being considered belongs to.

Recall UK is an ISLAND (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770460)

It's not very big, it's an island, like IceLand or GreenLand.

Expectations (2, Insightful)

Kryptikmo (1256514) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770472)

It may well be that CompSci grads have higher expectations and refuse to take the first thing offered to them. When you hear about the salaries talked about on /., HN and Reddit, who the hell wants to take a job for £15k working for Asda as a maintenance programmer?

Another aspect is: how many CompSci grads will initially attempt to start their own consultancy or work freelance as opposed to Creative Arts grads? And what percentage of them will be successful? It's impossible to draw too much from these statistics, because they assume that all graduates are equally suited to traditional employment, and that traditional employment is what they seek. With CompSci, where you can make a living as a freelancer without needing too many contacts or a huge reputation, it ain't necessarily so...

Not surprised (3, Informative)

ledow (319597) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770520)

I am, technically, a partial CS-grad from a UK university - but I deliberately choose to do Mathematics as the "major" (not a term we use in the UK, but it explains it well enough) because the CS was so dire.

Look at some of my previous comments on the subject: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1679538&cid=32509558 [slashdot.org] and http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1679538&cid=32508448 [slashdot.org]

CS degrees in the UK are pretty worthless. I understand the difference between a theoretical subject and a practical one but CS degrees (which should be theoretical and therefore nothing to do with actual computer work) are basically achieved by implementing A*, or a KMP-search, or Quicksort, or Minimax or some other rubbish. Usually in Java. Usually as a "team effort" for at least part of it (one year of an MSc at my old uni is entirely a team-based project). Usually by way of trial and error and having no real concept of what you're doing. I can teach a 15-year-old the same things and although they would struggle immensely with predicate logic and such things, that's because it wouldn't take them 3-4 exclusive years to learn those things.

If you're lucky, the uni students can program in BASIC or Java or Python before they join the course. Some haven't even *touched* a computer before. God help you trying to get them to learn a language they aren't already familiar with. The Compilers and Interpreters course that was part of my degree lost 90% of its students in the first three weeks because it was all theoretical, based on logic, grammar, etc. And that was 10 years ago and, from everything I've seen and heard from PhD students and the like, the situation has worsened in almost all British degrees. A third-year biology student asking a post-grad where the neck is (I shit you not - not a communication failure, they spoke English, understood the word but didn't know where the neck "began and ended"). A CS grad asking what a loop invariant is. MSc's implementing Minimax on the game of draughts (checkers) in Java for a third-year project.

The course content is a waste of time. The only thing a degree measures is whether you can sit in a room for three-four years and learn what is told to you. That does *not* coincide with knowing your subject or being able to do anything practical with it. This is why the degrees, the MCSE's, the A+, the CCNA, mean NOTHING. I only work for places that have already realised this, and specifically hire on *ability*. That doesn't mean I can only do the practical stuff, I know the theory and can apply it and can bore people to death if they get me onto graph theory or coding theory without even trying. Try explaining what spanning-tree algorithms do and why they can be used to avoid network loops... most CS grads can't once they have left their graph theory courses. But CS-grads not only come out with no useful work skills, they come out with zero understanding of the underlying theory either.

Re:Not surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770734)

I find it impressive that you link to your previous comments each with informed replies detailing the failings of your same rant. Maybe you should reply to any of them?

You are making sweeping generalisations with only your experience to back it up. You fail to address that there is a large spectrum in quality and focus with CS degrees. If everything you say is true, you did a poor degree. Even if you say you went to a good London university, the CS part of your course was poor. That does not mean all CS degrees are poor.

A good CS degree should have a theoretical focus. If you are being taught a specific language at any point they are probably doing it wrong. Sure the practical aspects of any module may require a given programming language to be implemented in, but it should be assumed knowledge or un-assessed prerequisite of the course. The principles of the engineering are what is to be learned not specific algorithms or languages. A good degree with be accredited by multiple societies, I have studied pure CS and am graduating with a BEng.

I live in a house of 3 CS students all graduating this year, we all have graduate work lined up. The key is to study a quality degree at a quality University.

CS degrees are NOT worthless (4, Insightful)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 4 years ago | (#32771010)

You may have gone to some piss pot ex-college bigging itself up by putting university in its title that only cared about the number of students on a course and not what they learned but I went to a proper Uni and we were *required* to learn formal proofs, predicate logic, set theory, database theory and microprocessor design amongst other things. If you failed those modules you were out. End of.

"The only thing a degree measures is whether you can sit in a room for three-four years and learn what is told to you."

So you think knowledge is a waste of time? An interesting point of view. What are you expecting , a degree that teaches you all the skills you require to go straight into a 6 figure salary? Get real. It gives you a grounding in various parts of CS, nothing more , and also a proof of ability to potential employers.

"Try explaining what spanning-tree algorithms do and why they can be used to avoid network loops... most CS grads can't once they have left their graph theory courses"

And I doubt you'd have much lucky explaining how gouraud shading works or how 3rd normal form differs from 2nd without looking it up first. So what? So you're clued up on one small part of CS because you work in that area. BFD. That doesn't make some sort of genius.

Better than art school (2, Insightful)

Leon Buijs (545859) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770522)

I'm not sure exactly what schools are meant by 'creative arts' but in the Netherlands - and I bet in most of the Western world - art school students with a degree are have a lot of trouble finding a job at all in arts. So 83% is a fantastic score, specially considering the economic being unstable etc.

Re:Better than art school (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770690)

I'm not sure exactly what schools are meant by 'creative arts' but in the Netherlands - and I bet in most of the Western world - art school students with a degree are have a lot of trouble finding a job at all in arts. So 83% is a fantastic score, specially considering the economic being unstable etc.

Of course it could just mean they look at the current economic climate and accept jobs stacking shelves in supermarkets instead.

Re:Better than art school (1)

Leon Buijs (545859) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770722)

Agreed, except I'd expect most of them to at least try to find a job that matches their education for half a year to a year.

As someone on a CS degree... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770524)

I can tell you, there are two types of people on the course. Those who were expecting an easy degree and spend their time just getting through, and those who want to do Computer Science who do better.

These stats mean nothing unless you take into account grades.

Re:As someone on a CS degree... (1)

Spad (470073) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770616)

I can't believe anyone would take CS as an "easy" degree when there are so many utterly worthless excuses for courses available these days. Golf Sciences? David Beckham Studies? American Studies?

Re:As someone on a CS degree... (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770700)

Or of course "media studies", where they have to go to the cinema twice a week and then sit around and discuss the films

furth news. (2, Insightful)

sjwt (161428) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770530)

"but even much mocked communications and creative arts graduates are finding work more easily"

In realted news, mcdonalds hasnt had trouble filling job vacancies

Re:furth news. (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770614)

In realted news, mcdonalds hasnt had trouble filling job vacancies

But who is filling these vacancies?

Re:furth news. (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770808)

If I lost my job, I'd definitely apply for a job at McDonalds. They have one of the best management training schemes in the world (along with Games Workshop, oddly) and they very quickly pick out the people with half a brain. You can shoot up to a franchise management position in far fewer years than in most other sectors, and from there you've got people and finance management skills which will apply to any sector you choose to work in.

McDonalds does need burger flippers, but they can't run the shop.

The good and the bad... (1)

AlexiaDeath (1616055) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770570)

People with theoretical comp-sci education don't have that much to write under competences in the cv and need to learn practical skills first. This means accepting a lower paying job to start with and many don't want that. But working up potential is much better. For me, this translated to accepting a minimum wage job(rural area, not that much choice and the employer was right) to getting paid well above average year or so later.

There are people who can go solo right after getting the degree, but they usually have worked the field before/during going for the degree however. the rest of us need a job to get our toes wet.

People with practical education are much more likely to get a job in pay class of their skill set right after school. But development options are limited.

Degree personalities (1)

camnrd (1005865) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770592)

The truth is, 95% of any degree course material will never be used in the real world unless you go into research. My Quantum theory has never been needed in finance, funnily enough. I've never employed a CS graduate because the courses are full of stuff that they'll never use - AI, etc. unless they become games programmers (which they almost certainly won't). Mostly the degree type is used to judge the type of person - Maths grads are quite logical people, Science grads are practical people, Arts grads have a head for facts, but CS grads are seen as people who enjoy fiddling around with things without actually getting anything out of it. Just my opinion, though.

A bit surprising (3, Informative)

Skuto (171945) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770642)

I'm looking at the same stats here for Belgium, one of the UK's closest neighbors, and the picture looks quite different. No idea if this is because we're small, or if this is similar to the rest of mainland Europe.

Informatics: one of the highest amounts of outstanding jobs, although 30% less than last year. Similar to engineers, though the demand for those didn't drop.
Only beaten by: metal construction workers and technicians (x1.5), and...cleaning ladies! (x3)

Unemployment after 1 year is between 5.1% and 13.3%.

Art, fashion, language, archeology, interior design, and history around the highest ones (>15%), so this seems contrary to the original post.

Medicine (even nurses), Science (Maths, Chemists, Engineers) have basically 0% unemployment.

Re:A bit surprising (1)

drewhk (1744562) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770856)

Just the same here (avoid naming my country -- but it's also in Europe)

Unemployment checks for all then (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770652)

"It creates jobs faster than almost any other initiative you can name."

--Nancy "The Brain" Pelosi

http://www.breitbart.tv/pelosi-unemployment-checks-fastest-way-to-create-jobs/

C'mon all you libs, aren't you proud! (and unemployed likely)

the parents (1)

defective_warthog (776271) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770678)

Who cares? I have a BA in psychology. I graduated in 1981. I need a job. Recent graduates should go to the end of the line while their parents go to the front of the line.

Re:the parents (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770756)

Dude just keep voting for statists and cash in the profits!

http://www.breitbart.tv/pelosi-unemployment-checks-fastest-way-to-create-jobs/

"I need a job" haaaa hahahahahaha.

Let me know how that works out for you buddy.

Re:the parents (2, Insightful)

Facebeast (1689358) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770780)

No, the most competent people with the most relevant qualifications for the job should be hired first. People with useless degrees in made up nonsense subjects, like psychology or social science, should retrain or put up with a low paid menial job.

Re:the parents (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770886)

"Recent graduates should go to the end of the line"

Why? What do you think this is, Disneyland?

No experience (1)

NetServices (1479949) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770704)

It only makes sense with no experience. Employers are looking for solutions from software engineers. Experience is invaluable.

It's all going IP (2, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770724)

The final frontier of the wealthy is IP ownership. They only have to own something valuable and inexhaustible to become wealthy and stay that way. To ensure this, they only need some laws (got that) some world treaties (got that) and some soldiers to exert your will on the rest of the world (got that too!).

Sure there will be some work in services of various types... medical, fast food, legal and what have you, but manufacturing and agriculture and even technical work are all send out of the country because local workers are too expensive. It harder to grow your wealth when you have to pay people enough not to starve...better to pay people who are already starving!

This is the direction I see the world going anyway...

Module Choices (2, Informative)

Gibsnag (885901) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770768)

I finished a UK Comp Sci degree a few weeks ago. The quality of the degree depends significantly on what modules the student picks. If they decide to take all the easy modules with little extra programming or theoretical knowledge then they will come out with a useless degree and become part of that 15%. Fortunately at my uni (Nottingham) some of the more theoretical (as in actual Comp Sci) modules were mandatory.

Nonsense numbers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770792)

These numbers don't make any sense. Given: "And the number of students who managed to find employment within six months has dropped from 62% to 59%.", one would expect the weighted mean % across disciplines to be 41% unemployed. So how is it that Computer Science has only 17% unemployed[1] (the most) yet we can still end up with 41% of graduates unemployed?

[1] As defined by "Source HESA: Percentage of full-time first degree graduates (2008-9) unemployed after six months"

Mod editor up (5, Interesting)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770816)

As the article submitter, I'm like to note that timothy actually corrected a factual inaccuracy in my original submission. In other words, he read the linked article and... well, there's no other word for it... he edited the submission.

I know, I know: I wouldn't have believed it unless I'd seen it myself.

CS is dead; long live applied Informatics? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770818)

As always though the statistics contain individuals who will get jobs because they have other skills, are persistent or just so good.
But...for what it's worth here is my opinion as a professional Bioinformatician working in academia.

CS as a scientific discipline is great - but it is like 'Physics' or 'Biology' - seen as an academic subject (even by me and I've met original "Sander @ the Zoo" most likely and can tell my Cathedrals from my Bazaars). Perhaps because that is all CS is: great for going further in academia; maybe the perception is wrong.
Add some concept of application however to the general term in the degree of CS such as crossing it with another field like 'Biophysics' (surprisingly CS intensive actually in parts), or my field 'Bioinformatics' // 'Computational Biology' and suddenly the graduates become more employable. A lot in the case of BioInf.
Why? The world of Biology & Medicine (aka 'Medical Informatics') is really short of good quality graduates - and to be honest we prefer postgraduates i.e. MSc, PhD - with 'Informatics skills'. We don't generally want computer scientists though: we want people who can cross into Our Domain and solve Our problems. Most of these are - by CS standards - relatively simply but remain unsolved because we can't find the people to tailor the existing solutions. How many more 'Web Frameworks' / new File Systems / Software Development Models do we need? I use Linux. And grep. And Perl. And rest of LAMP. CS is a means to an end for us not a tool.
Know something about filesystems and data structures? Call yourself a 'Data Manager' and come talk to me, or your local Microscopy unit. Get a job! (Win a Nobel Prize?) And even the Canadian Government will let you immigrate on their Skilled Worker Program.

IT recruitment agencies (3, Interesting)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770828)

In britain almost no companies recruit direct. For reasons that can be summarised as laziness on the part of personnel (aka Human Resources) departments, and their unwillingness to learn how to filter technical resumes (aka CVs), the entire recruitment process for IT professionals is outsourced to agencies.

Sadly the induviduals who "work" ( a term used in its loosest possible sense) are even worse at identifying suitable candidates than the HR departments would be. All they do is take a list of keywords dreamed up from deep within the recruiting company and slavishly match them against all the electronic applications they have on file.

What they happens is some random acts of association. Your CV says "3 years C++", the client asked for 2 years, so you're overqualified. They asked for Javascript experience, you have Java so you get sent on an entirely pointless interview that takes a day of vacation (or sick) time. Turn down an interview prospect and you're labeled "hard to please" and no more opportunities come your way. In fact it's a wonder that any vacancies get filled, that any IT departments get any staff who can actually do the job - rather than fulfill the tick-list the agencies use. In fact the only people who get what they want out of this arrangement are the commission-earning staff, who not only get paid for placing an unsuitable candidate, but then harass that person's previous employer and get paid if they fill the vacancy they created.

maybe they're not trying... (2)

molecular (311632) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770842)

maybe they're not trying to find a job within 6 month, because...
    * they already have a "side-job" generating enough money
    * they're freelancing
    * working on the black market
    * discovering the opposite sex

No secret (2, Informative)

Robotron23 (832528) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770888)

It's no secret that the job market in the UK is abysmal at the moment; In the end either through shame, or sheer financial stress, or pride, people will take whatever is on offer - relevant or not. Being unemployed here makes you utterly ashamed; the bureaucratic rigmarole and being looked on as a dole-sponger hardly helps morale when one mails off those resumes. Sucks since you get an absolute pittance to live on and pay it back in taxation in no time: Unemployment is to rise to well over 10% within a few years, in line with massive cuts to public services or private firms who profit from government investment. One simply cannot afford to pick and choose, and even those skeptical in the massive marketing propaganda so common to university campuses across Britain are often surprised by just how grindingly hard it is out there.

I think it's less of a question whether CS grads find a job than it is whether they find a job relevant to their degree. I never studied CS, but from the guys I know who did I gathered it's one of the more vocational, concentrated degrees. Thus, the few jobs that there are out there in the British market have absolutely no relevance to 98%+ of what they've learned. Bit of a downer when you consider how doing the course requires a lot more passion than 'Media Studies' or 'American Studies' or countless other subjects which, whilst nice as a hobby, rarely translate to a job relevant. CS grads (justifiably) expect something to do with computers for the years of graft they put in. Outsourcing and other issues aside; having to do much more actual work and much less partying than Mr. Arts/Humanities, these geeks count on a true career.

A lot of people do a subject they 'like' in university here, and its the same across the West. Unfortunately what is liked sometimes translates to low employability and relevance in the job market - the smorgasbord of subjects (hundreds beyond the 'traditional' body of sci/eng/math topics) offered in our universities is testament to how people see education as more of an end than a means, or simply want what they think will be a better/easier time in higher education. But very, very few people go into CS for fun like this; most undergrads are at least somewhat aware of the big bad math skills required to get past the first year of the course; and for this reason most non-geeks avoid it like the bubonic.

It's the same story for other hard subjects like physics; plenty of grads, no jobs for said grads. A shame because talent gets neglected, as do research proposals which might hold promise - UK science funding is finicky as hell. The issues as to why under-25s have such a hard time getting work are much discussed in the broadsheets of this country; beyond all this endless talk by comfortable journalists in their offices one thing is certain: Along with the disabled the young be the ones feeling most the next 5 years of unrelenting neoliberalism embodied by our Conservative/Liberal Democrat government.

Jobs are easy to find, degrees worthless (3, Informative)

loufoque (1400831) | more than 4 years ago | (#32770890)

I got hired even *before* my MSc was finished, without any problem, in a UK-based company that is supposedly very picky about who it takes.
There are even people who have just a BSc or an MEng and they're on the same payroll as people with MSc.

The problem is probably that in the field, the degrees are pretty much worthless, and what matters is your actual skill.

To Be Honest (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770892)

UK Programmers are the worst in the world. Yes I have worked with them. Yes they are worse than outsourced programmers.

McDonalds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770936)

I don't believe the statistics... McDonalds would hire a compsci grad as long as he/she shows up on time.

Makes sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32770980)

I wouldn't want to work with over 20% of the people graduating, those unexperienced gold bricking morning-programmer types, so 17% is actually surprisingly better than I would've thought...

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