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PC Gamers Too Good For Consoles Gamers?

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the commence-flame-war-now dept.

HP 324

thsoundman sends in a blog post from Rahul Sood, CTO of HP's gaming business, who claims there was once a project in development at Microsoft to let Xbox users compete against PC users playing the same game. According to Sood, the project was killed because the console players kept getting destroyed by their PC counterparts. He wrote, "Those of us who have been in the gaming business for over a decade know the real deal. You simply don't get the same level of detail or control as you do with a PC over a console. It's a real shame that Microsoft killed this — because had they kept it alive it might have actually increased the desire of game developers and gamers alike to continue developing and playing rich experiences on the PC, which would trickle down to the console as it has in the past."

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Not a surprise (5, Insightful)

SquarePixel (1851068) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008112)

It's not really surprising. There are some console players good with a gamepad, but it really doesn't work as well as a mouse and keyboard combo. With FPS games you cannot turn your character as fast and precisely as you want to, and don't even get me started on how real-time strategy games work with consoles. Keyboards also have a lot more keys available.

There is also significant amount of more intelligent gamers on PC who play strategy games, old games like nethack and adom, simulation games... They have a strategit intelligence. Consoles on the other hand are quite much just racing games, fighting games and some badly controlled FPS games.

PC gamers are also more active in modding community, programming and everything else since it's an open platform.

Moddable fighting games (1, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008196)

Consoles on the other hand are quite much just racing games, fighting games and some badly controlled FPS games.

PC gamers are also more active in modding community, programming and everything else since it's an open platform.

Which sort of sucks for people who want, for example, moddable fighting games.

Re:Moddable fighting games (1)

ravenshrike (808508) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008392)

There's Brawl+ and it's compatriots on the Wii.

Re:Moddable fighting games (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008606)

There's Brawl+ and it's compatriots on the Wii.

Not on 4.3. If there were an official modding facility for Brawl beyond the Stage Builder, that'd be one thing, but the more thorough mods for Wii games rely on a jailbreak that Nintendo has since fixed in the firmware shipped on new Wii consoles.

Re:Moddable fighting games (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008666)

I played a really good DBZ mod for quake once that made it feel like a fighting game

Re:Moddable fighting games (4, Informative)

jack2000 (1178961) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008750)

There's the big one MUGEN, I'm sure if you dig some into it you can find others.

Re:Moddable fighting games (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008886)

Mugen FTW.

Re:Not a surprise (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008292)

Which basically says nothing about the games or the gamers. The "deal" is keyboards have a lot more buttons to hit allowing instant control. And the mouse makes even the lowliest gamer able to instantly point-n-kill. Put these input devices onto a PS3 or 360 game, and run the experiment again. Result? A tie. Slobbing on the sofa with a beer? Console Win. Having to sit in front of a PC, console win. More than one player, console win.

Re:Not a surprise (1)

SquarePixel (1851068) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008386)

Which basically says nothing about the games or the gamers. The "deal" is keyboards have a lot more buttons to hit allowing instant control. And the mouse makes even the lowliest gamer able to instantly point-n-kill. Put these input devices onto a PS3 or 360 game, and run the experiment again. Result? A tie. Slobbing on the sofa with a beer? Console Win. Having to sit in front of a PC, console win. More than one player, console win.

You're only talking about FPS. What about, for example, strategy games or serious simulators? I am sure PC players would pwn console gamers in those.

In fact, you can already put mouse and keyboards for 360, but they still don't seem to compare.

Besides, how is it harder to have a beer while playing on your PC? I would say it's even easier since you have a table right in front of you, so no need to move around to get it from the table.

Only thing where console wins is when you're playing with friends who are physically there on your sofa. But then you also lose a lot of from the game, because for example with FPS and strategy games you know where everyone else is and what they are doing.

Curious (1)

Beardydog (716221) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008908)

What 360 game supports a mouse?

Re:Not a surprise (4, Funny)

Quaz and Wally (1015357) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008340)

PC Gamers are also much more attractive.

Re:Not a surprise (5, Insightful)

NoZart (961808) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008420)

As if Racing or fighting games can not be just as sophisticated as FPS. Plus all the other genres on the consoles that can demand a high level of skill.

The notion that PC gamers are more intelligent is just elitist bashing. Just because a gamer is proficient in some RTS, doesn't mean he cannot be a complete moron otherwise.

I have seen state class FPS players get stumped by something as simple as tetris.

Re:Not a surprise (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008648)

I agree entirely. I was going to write essentially the same response, so I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. I used to play a lot of online FPS back in the day from Quake/2/3, RtCW, Unreal/UT, Half-life/2, etc... and when I transitioned to playing more xbox360 I always felt like the controls were not nearly as responsive, precise, and quick as a mouse and keyboard. I thought it was just lack of experience and practice with the 360's gamepad, and to some extent I am better with it, but I still feel that way.

Re:Not a surprise (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008684)

Its not a surprise because its been done. Twice.

Quake 3 Arena on the Dreamcast allowed cross PC-Dreamcast competition. Even though the Dreamcast version allowed for keyboard+mouse control, PC gamers absolutely dominated the scene.

Shadowrun on the 360 allowed for cross PC-Xbox 360 competition as well. Supposedly PC gamers also destroyed 360 users (although the game was plagued with lag, control and balance issues)

That's really what it comes down to (4, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008694)

The mouse and keyboard are superior controllers for most types of games. In the case of FPS games, the difference is night and day. There's just no way to stack up with a controller, no matter how good you are. Now for other games that is not always the case. Personally I have a game pad, a flight stick, and a wheel since I love games and I get out the controller that is appropriate for the game. However FPSes, MMOs, strategy games, RPGs, the mouse/keyboard reign supreme.

This is also why you'll see some differences in PC and console FPS design. Console FPSes use auto aim, of course, but also deal with things in a slower, less engulfing, fashion than found in some PC FPSes. With a gamepad you cannot quickly whip your character around and check your back, so it is no fun to have something where you are getting jumped from all sides. However on a PC, sure, that's a good way to add to the challenge and bring fast reflexes in to play.

Some games are just not good for consoles. Nothing wrong with that, just something to accept. As for cross platform play, I'd love to see more of it, however it just needs to be done right. In the case of any shooter games, make it co-op only. Also choose the games wisely. Street Fighter 4 probably would work well cross platform, no real advantage anywhere there. Bad Company 2, not so much the console people would get slaughtered.

Re:That's really what it comes down to (1)

enderjsv (1128541) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008800)

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say MOST games. I'd give the keyboard and mouse FPS, RTS and MMRPGs. But I'd give the controller fighting, racing, platforming, flying, and pretty much any third person game where the camera is not fixed behind the character.

Re:Not a surprise (1)

KTheorem (999253) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008778)

I hate K&M gaming for F/TPS specifically because of how insanely responsive the controls are.

Any time I can be running, turn in place 167 degrees, and hit something at 50 ft. with any kind of accuracy—in .25 seconds no less—the game has lost me. There is something to be said for fun over realism, but I think PC games take it way too far to the point where it is no longer fun.

I like being forced to actually bring the gun around to the target in more time than it takes to flick a wrist, to stop running and actually take the time to aim properly to get off an accurate shot, and to not be able to process the world spinning around my head when moving it to the side fast (motion blur). I might think about actually playing a K&M game if I ever saw one with anything close to reasonable movement limits but I doubt that will ever happen as my friends who play PC FPSs appear horrified over such things.

Re:Not a surprise (3, Insightful)

Peganthyrus (713645) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008854)

I pity you FPS addicts who will never know the pleasure of weaving your on-screen character through an intricate ballet of running, jumping, dancing, and attacking. There's a real pleasure to choreographing your moves on the fly in a third-person game and watching a superbly-animated character perform them that's totally lost when you're a viewpoint with an arm and a gun hanging somewhere beneath it.

FPS games are designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind; handheld controllers suck for these actions. But if the tables were turned, with games designed around a controller, I suspect you'd find that the PC players would be the ones defeated by an inadequate interface. I mean, boot up MAME and try playing Robotron with a keyboard, see how far you get, then go find a lovingly-maintained cabinet of the same game and feel the joy of grabbing dual joysticks.

FPS games for the console (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008124)

Hahahahaha

Very popular though (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008826)

There are tons of them, and they sell a shitload, despite the fact that the mouse is such a better control.

In fact, I think it might even be BECAUSE of that to an extent. Lot of PC shooties are pretty hard core. You are expected to have some badass reflexes to do well. That is fine... For people with said reflexes. However not everyone has them, and it diminishes with age. Ok well consoles help equalize that. Because of the limitations of the controller, you can't make people react as quick, and you have to have some aim assist. That levels things out some, makes it easier for players who have slower reflexes to compete.

Don't get me wrong, I love PC gaming. I don't own a console, and don't want to. However FPSes are big business on the console and have been for quite some time.

Keyboard and mouse (4, Insightful)

nobodylocalhost (1343981) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008132)

All it amounts to are full keyboard and mouse, and microsoft can make a ton of cash by selling them as add on accessories for the xbox360... They are just being stupid and stubborn clenching to the controller

Re:Keyboard and mouse (4, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008202)

Yep. It's not that PC gamers are inherently more skilled than console gamers. Take the best PC gamers and the best console gamers and put them on consoles and PCs respectively, and you'll still see the PC destroy the console.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (3, Insightful)

Moryath (553296) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008226)

But you have to turn off aim correction. And most console gamers wouldn't know what to do with themselves once that crutch is gone.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008560)

what? have you ever played a game of mw2 on live with any group of players who are actually decent? 10 minutes into any game you'll hear bitching about autoaim screwing someone over.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (5, Interesting)

enderjsv (1128541) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008760)

You're right. A lot of console gamers wouldn't know what to do with themselves. In fact, a lot of console gamers would be incredibly surprised to realize that all this time, they've been using aim-assist (I say aim assist instead of auto-aim, because auto-aim can also refer to mods that are far more influential than aim assist). If you were to ask the random console Bioshock player or Left-4-Dead player if the game had aim assist, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them said "no." But they do.

Personally, I think it's kind of a testament to how well aiming assist has been implemented into console games. It's almost transparent, and still allows for a wide range of skill. PC gamers who don't play console games very often probably still think of aim-assist the way they think of auto-aim, that the cross-hairs instantly snap to a players head or that bullets that wouldn't have hit magically hit their targets. While the latter is still the case in some games (like left 4 dead), the former doesn't exist in any game that I am aware of. Instead, the aim-assist acts more like a weak magnet. Large analog movements have less impact the closer you get to your target. So in, say, Call of Duty, holding the analog stick all the way to the right when not targeting an enemy causes you to turn quickly. But when you're targeting a person, the person acts as kind of a magnet which means you can use larger analog movements to fine tune your shot. It's an amazing system that works considerably well and is the ONLY reason fps games work on consoles.

That being said, as a PC gamer and a console gamer, I have to say I think there are quite a few PC gamers out there who still think there's little-to-no skill involved in console shooters and that playing a console shooter couldn't POSSIBLY be as fun as playing it on the PC. I think this is a shame as I find console games with clever aim-assist to be quite fun, not at all frustrating, with a ride range of skill levels and very entertaining.

RTS games, on the other hand...

Re:Keyboard and mouse (0, Flamebait)

NoZart (961808) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008602)

Lots of fun tournaments on LAN parties i organized painted a completely different picture. While PC gamers rule everything in the FPS domain, they completely fail to adapt quickly to an unrelated genre, while console gamers are quite fast in switching from something like geometry wars over to puzzle quest.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (3, Insightful)

cowscows (103644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008618)

The important thing to realize is not that the input types evolved to improve gameplay, but rather that the games evolved to fit the controllers that were commonly available. FPS's were born on the PC, so it's not surprising that they're best played with the keyboard/mouse. Platformers did most of their growing on consoles, and that's why they work better there.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008816)

The important thing to realize is not that the input types evolved to improve gameplay, but rather that the games evolved to fit the controllers that were commonly available. FPS's were born on the PC, so it's not surprising that they're best played with the keyboard/mouse. Platformers did most of their growing on consoles, and that's why they work better there.

TFA doesn't say what games were tested, but if they were console ports from PC, I would expect PC games to win becuase you're going from something designed for flexible input to a few buttons only. And most FPS games are designed for play on PC. And most console FPS use engines that were developed for PC use.

However, take something these days designed for consoles and ported to PC, then things might be different, especially since PC gamers always complain about console ports having sucky controls. Like the Halo series or something.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (4, Funny)

epiphani (254981) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008624)

No, the PC gamer on the console would still win.

He would rage at the damn xbox controller so hard that he would beat the guy using his PC with it until he had a concussion.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (3, Insightful)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008658)

Take the best PC gamers and the best console gamers and put them on consoles and PCs respectively, and you'll still see the PC destroy the console.

TFA claims they took the "best" console players and "mediocre" PC players, and the PC players still won every time.

They don't even need to market a different controller to consoles. The main thing they can do to help balance the field is to cap the PC version's mouse sensitivity to at or lower than that of the console's turn rate, and only use a few keyboard keys to do everything.

Even so, I'm sure PC players would still win. The mouse is simply a far superior pointing device to anything controlled by my thumbs.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (1)

ModeratelyMotiviated (1821654) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008866)

Yes. However, aiming with an analogue stick is a new skill for many PC gamers whereas you'd be hard pressed to find a console gamer who doesn't use a mouse on a regular basis. I don't think it's possible to do an accurate comparison. Personally I'd argue that the PC gamers would be better because they would have spent less time on controller manipulation but that's not a debate I ever want to get into...again.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (3, Interesting)

CambodiaSam (1153015) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008212)

I tried a third party accessory that lets you plug in a keyboard and mouse, but the latency was nasty. It just wasn't responsive enough to be usable. If they sold a keyboard and mouse that compared to the PC gaming experience, I'd buy it.

They don't already support Keyboard/mouse? (1)

NotSoHeavyD3 (1400425) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008676)

Sorry to say I haven't checked this out but they don't? I mean the Wii, Xbox 360, and PS3 all have USB ports on them. You'd think you could just plug in any old keyboard and mouse and it'd work. (Hell, didn't Unreal Tournament on the PS2 support keyboard and mouse?)

Four keyboards and four mice (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008246)

Not everybody plays online; in fact, it's an extra-cost option on Xbox 360. This means games are likely to support offline multiplayer. I imagine that one reason for lack of keyboard and mouse support on console games, and one reason that Microsoft's ban[1] hasn't been reconsidered, is that four keyboards and four mice won't easily fit around one TV.

[1] Microsoft doesn't allow games to use a keyboard for anything but chat, apart from a couple special case exceptions like FFXI.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (4, Insightful)

Bai jie (653604) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008268)

They don't want to sell a richer experience, they want to sell dumbed down crap that a larger market will buy in to.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (1)

Schmodus (875649) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008298)

If a keyboard and mouse were ever introduced on a console system, the manufacturer better be damned sure they ship them with the original bundle. Otherwise the multiplayer games to be unbalanced (haves vs the have nots).

Re:Keyboard and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008302)

That introduces two problems:

1. Developers have to target two different input methods. Not that big a deal for new games, but what about the huge library of existing games that won't be able to support it?

2. Instead of PC gamers vs console gamers you will have console gamers vs console gamers. You just shifted the problem from two different platforms to one platform.

A console is meant to be uniform. If you want a gaming machine with a keyboard and mouse just play on a fucking computer.

KeyToJoy in the console's operating system (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008418)

Not that big a deal for new games, but what about the huge library of existing games that won't be able to support it?

If the games were reading existing controls through an API rather than bit-banging hardware ports, the driver should be able to translate keyboard keypresses into player 1's gamepad keypresses. It'd be like JoyToKey for Windows, except in reverse. But then the operating system on something like a Wii is so thin [hackmii.com] that it might not be possible.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (2, Interesting)

ArbitraryDescriptor (1257752) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008428)

They don't even have to offer a keyboard/mouse controller. Offer a controller with a (good) touchpad in place of the right thumbstick. WSAD+Shift only offers 2bit input for movement, so the thumbstick is superior there. So this would give you absolute input for aiming, and high-res relative input for motion. Sounds damn near perfect to me.

Re:Keyboard and mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008856)

They don't even have to offer a keyboard/mouse controller. Offer a controller with a (good) touchpad in place of the right thumbstick. WSAD+Shift only offers 2bit input for movement, so the thumbstick is superior there. So this would give you absolute input for aiming, and high-res relative input for motion. Sounds damn near perfect to me.

That's actually not a bad idea. If it were designed for control/aiming with your right index finger, that'd be nearly perfect. Although you'd lose out on all the other right-side controls (maybe a little thumb trigger for the main fire/action button?).

Re:Keyboard and mouse (4, Insightful)

MooseMuffin (799896) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008430)

It has nothing to do with being stubborn. They won't put keyboard/mouse support on the xbox for the same reason they didn't allow PC players to play xbox players - people sticking with the controller would get destroyed. Why would they want to intentionally ship a console in which the standard hardware puts you in a position to fail?

Keyboard and mouse have to be optional ... (1)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008548)

All it amounts to are full keyboard and mouse, and microsoft can make a ton of cash by selling them as add on accessories for the xbox360... They are just being stupid and stubborn clenching to the controller

A keyboard and mouse have to be optional, the controller has to be the primary device. The controller is smaller, costs less and most importantly works while sitting on the floor or couch. A keyboard and mouse can not be included because costs must be manically controlled in the console market. So developers and gamers are in a situation where each side passes on the keyboard/mouse until the other side shows interest in it.

The real question is... (5, Insightful)

7Prime (871679) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008140)

who had more fun?

Re:The real question is... (3, Insightful)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008166)

The winners. At least statistically, winners have more fun.

Losing is fun! (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008346)

The winners. At least statistically, winners have more fun.

This applies in most games that aren't Dwarf Fortress [magmawiki.com] .

Re:The real question is... (1)

NoZart (961808) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008530)

i'd rather see myself loosing to a perfectly choreographed fight sequence that inspires awe than to just drop dead and respawn with no idea where the sniper camps.

Same with winning. Clicking with a crosshair shaped cursor on aa avatar of someone who is miles away cannot compare with the fun of beating someones ass that sits right next to you.

Re:The real question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008740)

Unless you lose in a particularly funny way. For example, I was once playing an RPG. I ran into an easy monster that confused the characters into attacking one another. I wanted to kill it quickly, so I had my mage cast an eliminate-everything spell on it. Well, wouldn't you know it, but the monster charmed the mage, and the mage casted the annihilation spell on my entire party. Oops!

Re:The real question is... (1, Insightful)

masmullin (1479239) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008210)

+1 insightful. Since losing sucks. Probably the pc folk, at least until the tendonitis set in.

Re:The real question is... (1)

Kreigaffe (765218) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008450)

Are you insinuating that pc gamers with suffer hand problems sooner than console gamers?

That's pretty absurd. I don't know about you, but I have larger hands than average -- I'm 6'2, it comes with the territory -- and my hands ache after as little as an hour of using a playstation controller. I've not used the newer xbox controllers recently. The original, gigantic xbox controller WAS comically large, but also a much more comfortable controller than anything since the n64's funky three-hands-fit-on-it affair.

but on a PC? Quite fine. I don't start getting sore hands until many, many consecutive hours of games -- and even then, only games that require constant movement. bhops, constant fast weapon switching, etc etc

Re:The real question is... (1)

masmullin (1479239) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008620)

Tendonitis is about the wrists, and it's much more of a problem than " nintendoitis" (which is what my friends dubbed the problem you describe, way back during the original NES days)

Re:The real question is... (1)

armanox (826486) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008218)

The Mustang. Oh, this isn't an 80's Ford commercial?

No fun having your arse handed to you (4, Insightful)

syousef (465911) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008284)

Re:The real question is...who had more fun?

It's not usually a lot of fun having your arse handed to you.

Re:No fun having your arse handed to you (0, Troll)

DdJ (10790) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008598)

Sure, it's not fun having your arse handed to you. But if you take that element out, who had more fun?

Can I get more performance out of mouse/keyboard? Sure. But I have less fun when I do so!

So, given the choice between lowering the performance requirement and encouraging mouse/keyboard use, know which one I'd pick?

Here's a hint: even though Portal 2 is going to be released with full support for Linus, MacOS, and Windows, I'm still going to be playing it on a console myself.

Re:No fun having your arse handed to you (1)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008834)

Can I get more performance out of mouse/keyboard? Sure. But I have less fun when I do so!

How does that work? Is not being good at something fun for you? Do you enjoy that you have difficulty doing exactly what you're trying to do? Isn't the point of a good controller to allow you to make your character do exactly what you're trying to? I remember when I was playing F.E.A.R. on a 360 that I had more success strafing because I couldn't aim worth a damn. I guess I didn't really consider that "fun", which is probably why the 360 hasn't been turned on in months.

Re:The real question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008382)

I'm sure the console players enjoyed sucking.

Re:The real question is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008466)

I know I'm having more fun when I'm winning and not failing.

PC Gamers Too Good For Consoles Gamers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008182)

You asked a question.

Answer: Yes.

Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (4, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008184)

I got a wireless mouse and keyboard working on my XBox 360 and then played through Modern Warfare 2 in single player mode. On my back projection TV from 1999, I was doing on average a lot better on XBox live than I was with the control pad. We set it up on my friends massive LCD with a very high response time and I felt unstoppable. It seems when you increase the input devices and give me finer tuned control I can concentrate on that and get further up the curve more easily. Might not be the same for some people but if you want to walk all over people, see if your device supports keyboard and mouse through USB and then relearn the game. It took a while but it got to the point of not being fun anymore.

I'd imagine on average the PC user would trounce the XBox 360 user. For me the killer aspect was reducing having to use my thumbs on two joysticks to look around down to the two dimensional plan of my mouse pad. Had to tweak the sensitivity a bit but really two different worlds.

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008356)

I got a wireless mouse and keyboard working on my XBox 360 and then played through Modern Warfare 2 in single player mode.

Were these Proprietary Microsoft products for the XBox or just any wireless device - and if not, was it difficult to get working?

I haven't tried it yet, I naturally assumed it wouldn't work exactly, but to have that... I would love to trump my friends across Live and have them baffled as to how my skill jumped so much.

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (2, Informative)

SquarePixel (1851068) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008414)

You obviously cant get official keyboards or mouse for 360 because it would give you too much advantage. You can use such for web browsing and everything else, but not to actually control the game. You can also get some unofficial products, but since the games aren't designed to be played with keyboards and mouses, they are quite much useless.

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008544)

I got a wireless mouse and keyboard working on my XBox 360 and then played through Modern Warfare 2 in single player mode.

Were these Proprietary Microsoft products for the XBox or just any wireless device - and if not, was it difficult to get working?

I haven't tried it yet, I naturally assumed it wouldn't work exactly, but to have that... I would love to trump my friends across Live and have them baffled as to how my skill jumped so much.

Posting AC since this is pretty much a product endorsement but this should work if you don't have any EE friends savvy enough to build you a hack [amazon.com] . READ THE REVIEWS, they have a lot of information on what you have to do to get that working!

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (1)

cosm (1072588) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008408)

"...see if your device supports keyboard and mouse through USB and then relearn the game. It took a while but it got to the point of not being fun anymore. "

So true with FPS's, on a console controller you are using the relatively few muscles that do the mechanics of thumb movement, versus the mouse you have the advantage of all the degrees of freedom that your carpal joints provide, not to mention the extra muscle control. Serious basement dwellers especially benefit from the full motion wrist control, many have it fine tuned to an art after many *sessions*.

Except folks who use those mice(?) with the trackballs. You guys are just weird. If your going to go for niche, play counter-strike with the red keyboard clitoris [thinkpads.com] like on the IBM ThinkPads. Thats 3-Freaking-1337.

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (3, Insightful)

turing_m (1030530) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008724)

Except folks who use those mice(?) with the trackballs. You guys are just weird

RSI sucks, that's the reason for the trackball. In FPS it's hard at first but I think I got within about 80-95% of my ability with the mouse (estimated just after a stint using the trackball). The problem with using a mouse is that the pain from RSI eventually drops my performance to where it's below that with the trackball, so it's not sustainable.

Re:Mouse/Keyboard Vs Joystick/Eight Buttons (1)

cosm (1072588) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008830)

I forgot about that issue. You raise a valid point in that the seeming majority of trackball users (citation needed) go that route for medical reasons, at least this seems true with the folks I have spoken with.

Obvious. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008194)

Anybody who has played both knows that the keyboard + mouse combination is unquestionably superior to the gamepad; it's not up for debate and it's not even close. This is not meant as an insult to console gamers in any way (I am one); that's just the reality of the situation. The only surprising thing about this story is that apparently allowing the two to play against each other was seriously considered.

Re:Obvious. (0, Troll)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008280)

Anybody who has played both knows that the keyboard + mouse combination is unquestionably superior to the gamepad

Online it is. Offline it isn't. In a game for a home theater PC, typically only one player can use the keyboard and mouse because DirectInput funnels events from all attached USB keyboards and mice into one virtual device. Other players need to use either gamepads or separate PCs.

Duh. (1)

ceraphis (1611217) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008224)

kb/m is undoubtedly the most precise way to control most games. There's a reason why many RTSes don't come out on consoles and why FPSes have auto-aim while you almost NEVER see auto aim on a PC.

Re:Duh. (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008308)

kb/m is undoubtedly the most precise way to control most games.

Only if "most games" are FPS or RTS. How well does a fighting game handle with the keyboard and mouse?

Re:Duh. (1)

Shihar (153932) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008442)

If I reprogram a few special purpose keys... pretty sure I can clean the floor of a console player without even having to bother to learn the game.

Re:Duh. (2, Insightful)

Karlprof (993894) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008532)

I don't think the traditional console pad can claim any kind of victory there either. The best experience with fighting games comes from a fightstick, or failing that a fightpad, which makes sense as they better emulate the arcade roots of the genre.

Re:Duh. (1)

michael021689 (791941) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008594)

Better than a console, obviously.

Shadowrun (1)

Ryanator2209 (1577631) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008230)

Shadowrun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_(2007_video_game) [wikipedia.org] had this feature. In my experience it was generally the PC players who had the advantage.

Re:Shadowrun (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008492)

And whichever version of quake that came out on the dreamcast was quickly hacked to allow PC vs console play. And the console players got raped.

The project went live (1)

Bieeanda (961632) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008270)

This was supposed to be a big selling point for Shadowrun, the FPS that was released for the 360 and the PC. Perhaps more accurately, it was supposed to be a selling point for both Windows Vista (since it wouldn't run on XP) and LIVE subscriptions, but the whole thing fizzled rather quickly on both platforms.

Solution seems obvious: (1)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008272)

Just don't mix the two on games where one has an advantage over another. I don't imagine people playing games like Uno, Poker, or pinball are going to be any better because of the platform they're on. Heck, on old arcade games and shooters like Geometry Wars the controller may be an advantage. I know I have a much easier time flying in Flight Simulator X with my 360 controller connected to my computer than when using the keyboard (although I'd probably do even better with a stick, but never bothered to buy one).

Re:Solution seems obvious: (3, Informative)

osu-neko (2604) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008394)

You know a joystick costs somewhere between one half and one fifth of the cost of the game?

I'm reeling over trying to process the idea of someone interested enough in flying to buy Flight Simulator but not interested enough to buy a joystick. That seems to be a logical contradiction...

Re:Solution seems obvious: (1)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008722)

I didn't like any of the joysticks they were selling at Fry's that day. Also, I had a super nice force feedback joystick buried in a storage tub, but apparently it wasn't a top seller as I couldn't even find drivers for the old thing. I picked up the 360 wireless USB adapter for computers and that worked just fine for my needs.

I had actually bought the game as therapy to help understand flying. I had an experience with severe turbulence on a 747 while descending into Hong Kong. The game actually helped out a lot because I understood, at least on a conscious level, that turbulence doesn't take planes down. In Flight Sim X you pretty much have to be in a hurricane to actually go down, although I imagine the flight would still be terrifyingly unpleasant.

Duh (1)

dangitman (862676) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008288)

When it comes to certain types of game such as the FPS, the keyboard and mouse is a superior input method. But what I don't understand is why more games on consoles don't support keyboard and mouse as inputs. After all both Xbox and PS3 can have these attached, it's just support in actual games is lacking.

This is not to say that the console gamepad controllers don't have their own advantages. They are much better for "relaxed" gaming when you are sitting back on the couch, and "social" gaming, with more than one player. Interestingly, PCs have the opposite problem in this regard - many of the PC games are not designed to work well with a gamepad.

Re:Duh (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008808)

But what I don't understand is why more games on consoles don't support keyboard and mouse as inputs.

Mapping input from one control device to another is not an easy problem to solve, just look at all the PC to console ports or visa verse, most suffers from rather huge control issues. There simply is no need to go through all that trouble when it doesn't provide any real benefit.

Also precision simply isn't really much of an important design goal, if it would be, we would all play with aim-bots as those beat unaided mouse controls quite easily.

Yahoo Answers (1)

cosm (1072588) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008314)

This. [yahoo.com] Best answerer had good intentions, but everything after the first two words was pretty like throwing a plasma grenade straight up and then deciding to snipe.

They're too different (1)

Onomang (1822906) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008366)

There may be games ported to both, but a PC and a video game console are so very different.

Just like the walled-garden that Apple has produced for its iProducts, many people prefer the consoles for their simplicity. With a console game there is no mandatory install. There is no worrying about system specs. There is a significantly smaller chance someone else is [capable of] cheating online.
What does that have to do with gaming performance, then?
People who use Linux are often considered power-users because they know more than the average Windows user. I think this would equate to console-vs-pc gaming. People who play games on their PC (Facebook games do not count) are in my experience more likely to know more about their computer.

Another difference is (obviously) the input device. Some people just like controllers. Controllers, however, aren't mice. They aren't nearly as accurate and they are usually more cumbersome. Personally, though, I like the feel of a joystick over point-and-click. Pulling a trigger on a controller simply feels better to me than does clicking a mouse to fire a gun.

Final note: I have heard that some people testing the new Playstation Move motion controller would pretty much always beat those using controllers because the style of input. Maybe with new motion controls console games can meet up against the PC competitively.

PS3 installs (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008564)

With a console game there is no mandatory install.

What you say is true of the Wii and the Xbox 360. It is not true of the PLAYSTATION 3, where Metal Gear Solid 4 takes several minutes to cache several GB to the hard drive when you get to a new act or you switch to another saved game that's on a different act.

There is a significantly smaller chance someone else is [capable of] cheating online.

And few to no legit fan-made mods either. If the first Half-Life were a console exclusive, there would likely have been no Counter-Strike.

Advert for webOS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008412)

Sood is trolling for attention specifically for webOS.

The point he makes about PC vs. console control is correct, IMO. But this article should be taken with a grain of salt since it is just trying to entice people to develop for HP's webOS.

Moot point! (1)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008456)

... at least, it should be. Where's the freaking mind-reading controllers already?! I want to just look at the screen and be able to control it all! It's like this: Mind-reading controller is as much better as keyboard and mouse controller as keyboard and mouse controller is better than console game pad.

Mindlink for Atari 2600 (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008584)

Mind-reading controller is as much better as keyboard and mouse controller as keyboard and mouse controller is better than console game pad.

Mindlink for Atari 2600 [wikipedia.org] was canceled because it gave players headaches.

Is possible to level the field. (1)

Tei (520358) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008494)

The mouse has precission, and the keyboard a verb (the keyboard is like a whole language at itself).

But the people can be very quick to react to the tiny verb set of the pad. So the console dudes are fast at Quick Time Events, fast and precise. So you can make a game where the console people is better than the pc dudes. You have to add combos, quicktimeevents, and nerf the need for precission (having spray and pray weapons, and autoaim).
Is doable.

And why would you want that? not to have people playing from a Xbox vs a PC, thats not interesting. Think a dude in a DS versus a dude in a PC. Thats something "new".

Combos/chords work on keyboards ... (1)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008832)

Combos/chords work on keyboards. They are merely more commonly used out of necessity on a gamepad. On a keyboard it is more natural to use different keys, in particular to use mnemonics to aid in recalling where a key is found.

Quickly timed events are something entirely doable on PCs. Watch the keyboard as a pro plays Starcraft.

DS vs PC, now you are going to have to nerf more than precision. Obviously onscreen detail, possibly networking, ...

PC games FTW!! (1)

mcfatboy93 (1363705) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008506)

This goes to all my friends who kick my @$$ at Gears and Halo.

Ditto! (1)

DRAGONWEEZEL (125809) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008654)

Nothing's more frustrating than getting my ass handed to me in a FPS. I DOMINATE FPS games, and I'd better, since I've been playing since Doom.

Not being able to get more than 1 kill (usually my own suicide) is SO frustrating!

YOU fAIL IT.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008558)

your replies rather to yet another themselves to be a for membership. is not prone to webs1te Third, you time I'm done here, Their parting

what about "aimbots" and "trainers" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008580)

I personally am glad they don't mix PC games and XboxLive games. I play Modern Warfare 2 on XBL and I have the PC version. Which do I like best?
XBL wins hands down only for the fact that you don't have aimbots such as from this website:
http://www.mw2aimbot.com/

Yes, to be fair there is "JTAG'd Lobbys" on XBL that give you "enhancements" but those are far and few between the amount the PC gaming world has. Also JTAG's don't last long (banned in a few hours) and if you do get in one of those rooms you have to keep your xbox on so the "enhancements" last. reboot and they are gone. PC games have also always been plagued with "trainers" from such old school sites like:
www.megagames.com/trainers and the like.

If the 2 gaming worlds bridged we would definitely see an uproar in PC cheats r4ping the the p1ss out of XBL users. And that would suck!

Frame rate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33008590)

Mouse and Keyboard is obvious, but what about frame rate.. On the consoles you are stuck with whatever the developers thought was good enough to play. On a PC you can tune the game to run faster by reducing the GFX or resolution and throwing hardware at it. A faster frame-rate equals better response time and a huge advantage.

Stupid Title is Stupid (1)

Wraithlyn (133796) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008592)

It has nothing to do with PC gamers being "too good", the mouse is just a superior aiming tool. But of course everyone already knows that.

Re:Stupid Title is Stupid (1)

poly_pusher (1004145) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008680)

You are totally right about a mouse and keyboard being a superior method of control for fps. Some games like sidescrollers and third-person perspective games do benefit from a standard controller. Unfortunately I don't think everyone knows that. Sony made a push during the release of the ps2 trying to get people to buy a sony keyboard and mouse. At the release I picked up unreal tournament, Quake 3 and the keyboard mouse thinking that this must be the way things will progress. Unfortunately it failed. I've argued this case more than once and many console gamers will insist that they are better on a controller.

Consoles FPS' have aim assists... (1)

Mr Stubby (1122233) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008636)

PC FPS's i've played dont, i think that sums it up. Console players THINK they're wailing on people, but its the game giving them a hand because of their crummy controls. Don't get me wrong, not a console "hater" i own every console there is and enjoy many games, i just don't play FPS's on them.

Easy to test - Get a XIM (2, Informative)

zero0ne (1309517) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008678)

You want to test this out easily?

Go buy a XIM3 when they come out.

Xim360.com [xim360.com]

Make sure to check their forums out for the official Xim 3 dev blog.

I know this is on my Christmas list, and I can't wait tearing it up with a keyboard and mouse on all the 360's FPS games.

The article is more or less correct (1)

He Who Has No Name (768306) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008700)

Shadowrun from FASA Interactive featured cross-platform play, and required some significant built in handicaps for the Xbox players to have even a fighting chance.

Proximity aim assistance (pointing close enough would trigger auto-targeting, like a lot of current console FPSs), boosted health for Xbox players, network code that was favorable to console players in some ways, and a few other factors.

What it came down to was that in order for PC vs Xbox play to be anything except a horrifically obvious and very cruel joke, they had to literally build in the same kind of 'advantages' that are normally provided with programs which would get you banned by Punkbuster or Valve Anti-Cheat.

Quite a few of the former FASA developers and artists that worked on Shaowrun migrated to ACES Studios where I worked off and on between early 2007 and its closure in Jan 2009, so this is confirmed firsthand from them.

I don't recall specifics about any wider-ranging Microsoft research into cross-platform play, but it does sort of ring a bell from a few remarks I heard. I think Bungie may have been experimenting briefly with it. My guess would be that it was ditched as part of (or possibly contributed to) the decision to not make a PC port of Halo 3.

Intro the new, less precise controller: (1)

DeadboltX (751907) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008876)

Just as a keyboard and mouse can be used to more precisely control a video game than a control pad, the new motion-based controllers will offer control pad users a whole new breed of competition that they can slaughter with ease.

Anecdotally you can see this already with games like Mario Kart Wii. Simply using the controller and nunchuck offer superior precision and control compared to when using the controller as a steering wheel, even with the aid of the steering wheel plastic mold.

I can't wait until people try to play games with Kinect on Xbox Live only to find that they get their asses kicked by anyone using a control pad.

console gaming is dying (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 4 years ago | (#33008918)

Stale hardware leads to stale (and non-competitive) games. Companies are starting to realize it.
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