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Tribalism Is the Enemy Within, Says Shuttleworth

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the can't-we-all-just-get-along dept.

Open Source 655

climenole points out a post from Canonical founder Mark Shuttleworth about internal strife in the free software community. He wrote, "Tribalism is when one group of people start to think people from another group are 'wrong by default.' It's the great-granddaddy of racism and sexism. And the most dangerous kind of tribalism is completely invisible: it has nothing to do with someone's 'birth tribe' and everything to do with their affiliations: where they work, which sports team they support, which Linux distribution they love. ... Right now, for a number of reasons, there is a fever pitch of tribalism in plain sight in the free software world. It's sad. It's not constructive. It's ultimately going to be embarrassing for the people involved, because the Internet doesn't forget. It's certainly not helping us lift free software to the forefront of public expectations of what software can be."

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FP (-1, Offtopic)

TrisexualPuppy (976893) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088052)

I, TrisexualPuppy, have had two FPs today. At my limit for binge FPing!

Public expectations... (2, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088054)

The public expectations of software are not particularly rigorous -- it shouldn't crash too often, it should look moderately pretty, and it should get them on the web. Done, done, and done. Can we go back to arguing and tribalism now?

Re:Public expectations... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088416)

The public expectations of software are not particularly rigorous -- it shouldn't crash too often, it should look moderately pretty, and it should get them on the web.

Hardly. Most public expectations of software are that it will crash too often and it'll be complicated to the point of unusability. Free software already rivals proprietary software in meeting these expectations.

Re:Public expectations... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088668)

Hardly. Windows users' expectations of software are that it will crash too often and it'll be complicated to the point of unusability. Free software supports 4096 hot swappable CPUs.

Fixed

So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088058)

If you see this as a problem, drop out.

It's one of the great strengths of open source. Or would you rather a mono-culture (and we can guess who you want at the top).

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (5, Insightful)

dward90 (1813520) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088240)

It is a problem. Tribalism is different than debate, dissent, and competition. It's a state of being unable to engage in meaningful debate or to accept constructive criticism. There is (or should be) a middle ground between a "mono-culture" and the inability to accept new ideas from a member of an opposing group.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1, Offtopic)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088404)

Like when people label me a "racist" because I belong to the local Tea Party.
"But I'm not racist."
"You belong to the TP - you're racist."
"My girlfriend's black."

"You lie!"
"No really here's her photo. See?"
"Lie lie lie!"
"Oh for Christ's sake - forget it."

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1, Funny)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088544)

Teabaggers aren't racist, just wrong.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (0, Offtopic)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088616)

No what's "wrong" is that I am being forced to pay a $950 Fine because I exercised my Pro-Choice right not to buy hospital insurance.

That's wrong. And that's what the tea parties are protesting against (in addition to Bush's idiotic 700 billion banker bailout).

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (4, Insightful)

radtea (464814) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088692)

in addition to Bush's idiotic 700 billion banker bailout

Strangely, I never heard a word out of any of these people when Bush was running up huge deficits... their voices only became so massively amplified when a Democrat walked in to the Oval Office.

I wonder why that is?

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (4, Insightful)

Applekid (993327) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088780)

Strangely, I never heard a word out of any of these people when Bush was running up huge deficits... their voices only became so massively amplified when a Democrat walked in to the Oval Office.

I wonder why that is?

That's easy to explain. Much like how the grass is always greener on the other side, criticism is louder when it's against your side.

How appropriate considering the topic at hand of Tribalism.

I would love to see these Tea Party guys share in some of the power to see if they live up to their claims. And Libertarians. And Greens. If the stranglehold of the two corrupt powerhouses were to be shaken with some decent 3rd party action without the populace mourning "wasting" votes within my lifetime, I can die a happy man that that the country I love will be on it's way to rediscovering her path.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088786)

Want to mod up... so bad... ahhh, but it's so offtopic. Sorry, try again next time.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (5, Insightful)

RoccamOccam (953524) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088808)

This type of action by Bush was the reason his approval numbers were so low - he lost his conservative base. Conservatives were quite outspoken about this. That being said, the fiscal bailout was quite different from the "stimulus" package. The fiscal bailout was almost completely a set of loans and the large majority of those loans have been repaid. The "stimulus" package, on the other hand was mostly a giant boatload of pork-barrel spending.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1)

pays-vert (1182777) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088816)

How about the "fines" you pay for roads/schools/police/fire dept./etc ? Wouldn't you be so much better off if you could just opt out of all of those too?

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088580)

yeah, and people call me racist just because i hang out with skinheads

what's up with that?

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088834)

A few videos you downloaded of black girls getting pounded by massive white dongs do not constitute a "girlfriend" you racist prick.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1, Funny)

ArsonSmith (13997) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088422)

Kind of like the Common Climate Pattern deniers?

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (2, Funny)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088512)

So tribalism == politics. Got it!

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1, Troll)

Schadrach (1042952) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088778)

Not exactly, although that is what a lot of politics eventually devolve into, unfortunately.

Remember, Democrats are always wrong on every topic because they murder babies, and you don't want to trust a baby murderer, do you? The sad part is that I've heard more or less that specific argument in the recent past.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (3, Insightful)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088398)

He didn't seem at all to be saying there should be a mono-culture. He stated that it was a problem that people in each individual clique seem to often, rather than being cooperative and working with the other groups (or even respecting) them, things tend to devolve into "my is better than yours!" attitudes. It's not even always between distributions. At a recent open sources convention I attended, though it wasn't really open hostility, I saw a lot more devotion and mild animosity between Gnome and KDE users than between Ubuntu and Fedora users.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (2, Funny)

metamatic (202216) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088828)

He didn't seem at all to be saying there should be a mono-culture.

I see what you did there.

Re:So drop out and there will be one less "tribe" (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088782)

thats what Shuttleworth wants = to be the "Bill Gates" of Linux, but thats not going to happen.

Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himself. (0, Troll)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088072)

I talked with Mr. Shuttleworth. My impression is that he is not ready for the huge social challenges of running an extraordinarily complex software development effort.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088206)

What do you expect? He uses Ubuntu.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088210)

Would you mind expanding on this comment please my dearest sir/madam?

More detail: (1)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088756)

Mr. Shuttleworth was not prepared to deal with the occasional anger of the software contributors, for example. Running a complicated technological business requires an understanding of not only the technology, but also the immense social complications.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (-1, Flamebait)

C_Kode (102755) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088224)

Thats fine as Ubuntu doesn't actually contribute much source code anyhow. It takes and takes, but returns very little.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (1)

ArsonSmith (13997) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088578)

Hell, the packaging and bandwidth is more than most, and they also do contribute a fairly large amount of code and infrastructure.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (2)

thrillseeker (518224) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088610)

Ubuntu provides a package that many people have found they prefer - how does that not fit the definition of value-added?

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088842)

It doesn't because Canonical's patch tribalism forces upstream developers to waste time on adding the value all over again from scratch.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (4, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088906)

Yeah except that whole part about making Linux easier to use, and accessable to average users. Not everyone wants to learn the intricate details of how their OS works, some of them just want to use it.

It may not be the distro for you, but to dismiss it as adding very little to the OSS community is intellecutally dishonest. Ubuntu was very helpful to many people for getting started on Linux. I myself started using it a year ago, and recently switched to Arch Linux because I was ready to learn more about how the sytem works. Ubuntu opened the door, and I'm very greatful for that.

Re:Mr. Shuttleworth should try to understand himse (2, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088918)

They seem to provide source and comply with the GPL, what else did you want?

Politics (5, Insightful)

dward90 (1813520) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088074)

"Tribalism is when one group of people start to think people from another group are 'wrong by default.'"

This is 90% of what makes the American government unworkable.

Re:Politics (5, Funny)

enderjsv (1128541) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088250)

And the other 20% is stupidity.

Re:Politics (1)

mathfeel (937008) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088716)

And the rest is that when a senator/congress{wo}man's job or campaign contribution depends on him{er} believing that 90% + 20% is 100%. {S}He will insist on it.

Re:Politics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088938)

After 110% there wasn't enough, you had to throw an explanation for "the rest"? And then criticize someone who has trouble with percentages? Nice. You're the last little smidgen of what is wrong with American government, people are too caught up in themselves to do enough research to actually vote for someone capable and independent.

Re:Politics (-1, Offtopic)

ffreeloader (1105115) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088438)

And this is what makes socialism 100% unworkable, for those who push it think they know better the individual what is right for the individual. That's why Alexis de Toqueville said it's "equality in servitude" not "equality in liberty".

I'll take "equality in liberty" over "equality in servitude" every time.

Re:Politics (4, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088670)

If you're talking about pure socialism, then I agree. However the same argument could be made for pure capitalism. I think the best systems are the ones where we strike a balance between the two.

Re:Politics (0, Troll)

pays-vert (1182777) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088712)

Not only that, socialism EATS YOUR BABIES! It's true, I heard it on Fox News.

--
(x ofclass RightWingVoter) => (x ofclass VeryRich || x ofclass VeryNaive)

Re:Politics (4, Insightful)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088746)

Yeah, stupid socialism. It doesn't work anywhere except everywhere except America. Oh, and here too, but not for health care or higher education. Socialism is only for the Department of War^wDefense, Libraries, and the Fire Department. Everything else is slavery. I mean servitude. It's confusing because I'm talking about slavery, but using the word servitude because slavery has these negative connotations which are directly attributable to unregulated socialism. I mean capitalism.

You keep using that word (4, Informative)

overshoot (39700) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088748)

And this is what makes socialism 100% unworkable,

So what are you doing to privatize your municipal streets, water, fire, and police?

(Yes, this is OT. Yes, abuse of the language is a personal pet peeve. Mod me down, by all means -- my karma can stand it.)

Re:Politics (3, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088464)

As soon as you enter Congress, you are no longer allowed to belong to any party. You become one single whole group, with no allegiances to anything but your own personal beliefs, your voters back home, and the Law.

If that works, extend it to the Member State Parliaments too.

Re:Politics (1)

BassMan449 (1356143) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088874)

As crazy as your idea sounds, I think it's a pretty good one. Political Parties were created as a way for the public to get a quick idea what someone stood for. They were an easy way to express your policies to the electorate. There have always been different views on some topics within parties, but the party was a general consensus of like minded individuals.

The problem is now, politicians are expected to support their party regardless of their (or better yet their constituents) views. Things like the US's health care bill are great examples. There were many Democrats who didn't like the bill, but they voted for because that is what the party expected them to do. The same could be said of many Republicans for voting against other bills. The problem is the idea that the party is more important than your constituents because the party will help you get reelected.

I think in today's highly connected world getting rid of political parties isn't such a bad idea. It is much easier now for a candidate to express his views and to interact with the electorate. The party should not be what determines what you do, your constituents should be.

Re:Politics (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088880)

Not being a subject of your party doesn't mean you will no longer go to meetings though...

Personally I think the party system is wrong. All it does is help people make uneducated votes. My Grandmother concreted that thought in my head when she told me she had voted Democrat from the time of JFK and she doesn't understand why they are different today, but she still votes for them because that's how she's registered.

Re:Politics (2, Insightful)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088882)

This is 90% of what makes the American government unworkable.

yeah.. All those congressmen are crooks. ... Except mine.. he's okay..

Sooooooooo... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088114)

use my distro.. It's way better than those other pieces of crap.

Good luck with that! (5, Insightful)

Daetrin (576516) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088136)

If you can figure out how to convince people to reject tribalism and operate in a completely rational manner then promoting free and open software will end up being small potatoes, you've probably got a nobel prize waiting for you.

Re:Good luck with that! (5, Insightful)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088298)

...Or a bullet....

Re:Good luck with that! (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088596)

... or a Vogon fleet, just before you get to a phone to explain how to save the world ...

Read the selfish gene. (1)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088394)

i.e. ain't going to happen. And funnily enough, assuming evolution is a universal where life is concerned (alabama excepted), any aliens we come across are almost certainly going to behave in a similar fashion.
 

Re:Read the selfish gene. (0, Offtopic)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088546)

Why are you hating on Alabama? Jeez. That's almost as bad as hating on..... say, Greece. Just because it's a backwards agrarian state doesn't mean they don't teach evolution and science.

Re:Good luck with that! (5, Insightful)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088418)

If you can figure out how to convince people to reject tribalism and operate in a completely rational manner

I've found the best method is to involve family. I've known people who were racist but once their brother or sister was dating someone of that race, they broadened their view a little bit. It's usually a slow process, but it helps them get past skin colour once they get to know the individual personally. Which tends to happen at a lot of family functions.

So - Mister Shuttleworth, if you can get your sleek and graceful Ubuntu women to date some strong and burly Red hat men, you'll find this kind of tribalism slowly disappear.

Re:Good luck with that! (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088936)

Still, that takes time and requires someone to reach out. It takes balls to reach out because you face being vilified by both sides.

Crap (2, Funny)

overshoot (39700) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088142)

Shuttleworth again? Who cares what he thinks? Debian weenies are bad enough, and Ubuntu isn't even real Debian.

Ignore him.

Re:Crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088688)

And what do you use? Xandros?

Re:Crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088946)

What about us Linux Mint users, you insensitive clod?!

Typical. (5, Funny)

LaminatorX (410794) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088152)

Just the sort of intellectual whining I'd expect from an Ubunt-dude.

Shame on you tribes (0, Redundant)

pspahn (1175617) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088172)

Tsk tsk.

What's he driving at? (1)

BobMcD (601576) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088254)

Right now, for a number of reasons, there is a fever pitch of tribalism in plain sight in the free software world.

I guess I hadn't noticed. What's he going on about?

Re:What's he driving at? (1)

BobMcD (601576) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088286)

Nevermind, I see the link now: http://gregdekspeaks.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/red-hat-16-canonical-1/ [wordpress.com]

Interestingly... (2, Insightful)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088904)

The comments following the blog post are more informative than the blog post itself.

Redhat and Canonical serve two entirely different groups of people, so it's pretty pointless to bitch about what each have or haven't done for their respective groups.

Re:What's he driving at? (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088700)

Right now, for a number of reasons, there is a fever pitch of tribalism in plain sight in the free software world.

I guess I hadn't noticed. What's he going on about?

I just assumed he was talking about yet another fight between the Debian and Ubuntu people.

It's not the tribalism, it's the bad software (1, Insightful)

k-zed (92087) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088256)

...or, rather, people who design and perpetrate software like:

  - networkmanager
  - dbus
  - gconf & gnome
  - pulseaudio
  - mono
  - ...

Re:It's not the tribalism, it's the bad software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088454)

If you think all of that was developed by Canonical or the Ubuntu community, then Ubuntu has already won

- a happy Ubuntu user

Re:It's not the tribalism, it's the bad software (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088600)

So you made this post what ... to prove him 100% correct?

Boring World (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088302)

The Tribalism is blocking me from world domination. Kill him.

Atari vs. Commodore (3, Funny)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088356)

ST vs. Amiga

Mac vs. Amiga

Mac vs. IBM PC

Windows vs. Linux

Republicans vs. Democrats

Racists (R) vs. Racists (D)

Re:Atari vs. Commodore (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088412)

registered users vs. Anonymous Coward

Re:Atari vs. Commodore (0, Troll)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088694)

registered users vs. registered users (posting as AC) so they can both insult AND mod down the person as (-1 troll)

I hate that.

Re:Atari vs. Commodore (0, Flamebait)

alanebro (1808492) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088738)

Mod up mod up!

Tribalism? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088360)

... there is a fever pitch of tribalism in plain sight in the free software world.

It's called Open Source. Get it right!

Re:Tribalism? (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088956)

No, it is FREE software. Open Source does not imply you have any freedom other than looking at the source. I care not if you were trying to be funny, you are wrong not out of tribalism but because of fact.

Tribalism v. Competition (1, Insightful)

Alaren (682568) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088384)

Look. The idea that people who are part of another group are "wrong by default" is frustrating and often short-sighted. Group-think is to be avoided.

That said, I would characterize the vast majority of so-called "tribalism" as simple competition. It's okay to disagree, and it's okay to disagree strongly. Part of evolution, whether we're talking biology or software, is competition. One does not just "fall" into the Ubuntu camp or the Fedora camp or whatever; one makes an initial choice based on (often inarticulable) value judgments. Then the "burden of proof" shifts to outsiders. If you want someone to switch "teams" after this point, it's not enough to argue that your presented alternative is marginally better. You will only win converts from other teams with genuinely compelling improvements--which eventually stand to benefit all comers.

Point being, it's entirely appropriate to say another group is wrong by default. Advocates for change always bear the burden of proof--which means advocates for change are always wrong by default.

It is possible to take this too far--to refuse to listen to any argument, to refuse to acknowledge any talk of change. That is probably the kind of fragmentation Shuttleworth thinks he sees, but... I think he's wrong by default, and he has not presented sufficiently compelling evidence to persuade me yet. All I see is healthy competition and passionate defenses of competing goods.

(FWIW, I run Kubuntu. I switched to Fedora a couple versions ago, then switched back. I am not a coder (I'm a lawyer) and my choice of distros depends mostly on a preference for KDE and stable drivers straight off the ISO.)

Re:Tribalism v. Competition (3, Interesting)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088766)

Shuttleworth is deeply embroiled in the constant in-fighting between Canonical and Debian, so it's not a big surprise that he sees fragmentation.

And now, it sounds like Redhat has entered the ring against Canonical, too... over contributions to GNOME of all things.

Re:Tribalism v. Competition (1)

easterberry (1826250) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088858)

The problem is things like this: Talk to a Os X or Windows (I know they aren't OSS but the concept is the same) user about the other. The arguments they make are so far exaggerated and removed from present reality that it's mind blowingly obvious that they have literally never used the thing they're complaining about.

And this isn't just a few extremists this is the PREVAILING attitude among Windows/Os X users and I'll bet it's the same in the OSS world.

Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software. (5, Insightful)

c0l0 (826165) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088406)

Strange how he speaks of "lifting Free Software to the forefront", whilst all he's _really_ doing is trying to lift Ubuntu to the forefront.

Mr. Shuttleworth apparently knows that "the internet doesn't forget", yet he (I assume it was him who heralded the changes made) chose to tone down the role of Free (as in freedom) Software in the "Ubuntu Promise" over the years in a very silent yet continuous manner, and led Ubuntu to act against some of the principles of the early (think 2004 to 2006 or so) days of the project; principles that I happen to value. Getting into bed with vendors of proprietary software in a way that doesn't benefit others in the Free Software eco-system is something I despise, for example: Canonical is actually getting proprietary AMD/ATI graphics drivers before anyone else gets them, probably under NDA or whatnot. I also don't like their "partner"-repository that contains nothing but proprietary software, and is advertised and presented as a Really Great Thing(tm), not as a sometimes (probably) necessary evil. I don't like how Ubuntu's more and more about doing "their thing" without contributing back to the upstream projects they base their product on, and how they actually try to differentiate themselves from their competitors by making technically bad decisions in the wake of all this (think client-side window decorations, and putting window controls to the left because of that - just doesn't make any sense to me). There were many other occasions on which Mr. Shuttleworth and Ubuntu chose to somehow, somewhat upset parts of the Free Software community, either by what they stated or what they did. I just don't think Mr. Shuttleworth is entitled to put Ubuntu under the banner of Free Software, at least not as it stands today. If someone on identi.ca, or whereever else, is arguing against Ubuntu, it's just that: someone arguing against Ubuntu. It's certainly not an attack on Free Software.

Re:Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088612)

Considering the amount of effort I have had to expend to get Ubuntu 10.04 to work with Exchange server, just because they can't be bothered to include Thunderbird/Sunbird/Lightning/Pidgin into their repositories properly AND integrated into their notifier applet

All I can say is "ubuntu is more guilty of this than most"

Re:Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088866)

There's this thing called "Other Distributions" that you may want to look at. They have repos too.

Re:Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software (2, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088678)

Unfortunately, he's essentially killed the Debian project, and the rest of Free Software is not far behind as we realize the futility of making ourselves his unpaid employees. I have a large product I'm working on, originally intended to be Open Source licensed. I am now thinking about a commercial-distribution-hostile license, just to make sure that community comes first.

Re:Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088894)

yup, shuttleworth & ubuntu is an interloper

Re:Ubuntu is about Ubuntu, not about Free Software (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088968)

Killed Debian? Sounds like hyperbole to me...

Technical and stylistic problems (1)

Drunkulus (920976) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088490)

I cannot bring myself to even try Ubuntu due to the names of its releases.
-Feisty Fanboy

'wrong by default' people are wrong? (2, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088502)

People who think people from another group are 'wrong by default' are wrong!

If this was Startrek the androids head would now explode.

We are apes... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088504)

And apes are tribal.

No fix for this, other than editing the DNA. (Warning: may involve large changes in to the Y chromosome).

Tribalism is backwards, shortsighted, smallminded (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088518)

Thats why I got an Apple.

Um. (1)

mattdm (1931) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088520)

This is all a bunch of pretty words. Sure, we should avoid "tribalism" arguments. There's some disturbing logical flaws -- tribalism based on nationality is surely more dangerous than tribalism based on preference of sports teams -- but the main issue is that no one accusing Canonical based on that. It's all a big strawman. I'd love to love Canonical.

But forget all that. The important thing is:

What's up with the "Our company is like a successful woman and you're saying we slept our way to the top!" analogy? Where does that even come from? Space madness?

Without tribalism, OSS wouldn't exist. (-1, Flamebait)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088560)

First off, learn with the fuck racism is and how it is different from prejudice you ignorant fuck.

Next, the very thing you are bitching about is what drove OSS to where it is today. People being 'fanboys' for their favorite OS or software is what ends up making OSS projects any good. Its one of the biggest motivating factors there is.

Popularity and praise for your effort, getting people to follow you and your awesome project ... that DRIVES most OSS developers, regardless of how many of them admit to it.

You shouldn't bitch to much about the very thing that got OSS to where it is today. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be better if everyone would work together for the common good, but thats just some BS cover thats thrown out with OSS as a battlecry and has little to do with actual motivation to do the work.

Pride makes OSS what it is, knowing that others will respect and admire you for your work on an OSS project. Clout. Publicity ... all the things that go into the very problem your complaining about are what gave you the OS you now stand on top of Mr Shuttleworth.

Competition is what makes people put effort into progress. My team being better than your team is why I work together with my team to kick your teams ass.

Do you REALLY think Linux would be what it is today if pretty much the entire OSS world (Linux fans or not) didn't have the some of the strongest hate, disgust and prejudice against Microsoft that they do? That 'tribalism' helps unite BSD fanboys (of which I'm a proud card carrying member) and Linux fanboys together to do things to beat MS.

I suggest you be really careful what you wish for.

Re:Without tribalism, OSS wouldn't exist. (2, Insightful)

canajin56 (660655) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088784)

You have it backwards. Triablism is the opposite of competition. Tribalism isn't "I prefer my project so I will make it better than yours" it's "You are an idiot, why bother competing when I'm already better and always will be". It's not "I like this feature we should do that too" it's "That feature is in Windows, it's garbage, lets not even think about it!"

Also, explain how racism isn't prejudice...

I'll grab some popcorn (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088570)

And laugh at everyone posting about how Shuttleworth is wrong by default, and how Ubuntu sucks by default.

Re:I'll grab some popcorn (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088964)

Well, you need to change from the defaults then. KDE helps in this respect, as there are lots and lots of options you can tweak to your liking so everything doesn't suck. I pity the Gnome users that have fewer options to move away from whatever the package maintainer thought would be best.

What a hypocrite (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088594)

Mark doesn't like it that we don't just all cooperate in making him even more wealthy. We're not his unpaid employees, even if that's the way he treats us.

Re:What a hypocrite (1)

Macrat (638047) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088772)

Bruce modded as Troll?

racism is tribalism is culturism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088652)

If ever you want to cause an uproar, hold forth as follows.

Tribalism is what we call the pack instinct in humans. It has served important survival functions in the great apes, canines and probably most pack hunting species. It can be trained out to some degree but it is part of the default social priority structure we are all born with. In humans it is only slightly based on blood relations: the main cues for identifying tribe members are cultural. Most of tribalism is really culturism. If you act the same and look the same and smell the same, you are likely to be accepted.

It protects against disease: if you kill the interloper promptly there is less chance of contagion. It is the framework for competition for resources: if your tribe can defeat another tribe you can commandeer their land, women, etc. That is the evolutionary basis of tribalism and in fact society in general.

Racism, properly viewed, is just tribalism where the tribes happen to have different skin colors. When the colors match, e.g., Tutsis vs. Hutus we call it tribalism or culturism.

Racism tribalism culturism

Well, given my depth of knowledge of the subject.. (0, Offtopic)

lattyware (934246) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088714)

I think I can safely say it's bad, as it was the worst labour civic in Civ4.

Trolls, Offtopic, Flamebait (4, Insightful)

1000101 (584896) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088728)

Only 52 comments in and it seems there is already a disproportionate number of posts moderated Offtopic, Troll, or Flamebait than a typical /. thread. All this and we're just talking about the possibility of tribalism being a problem in the free software community. Perhaps Mr. Shuttleworth is on to something.

Help! I Need a Tribe! (1)

oakwine (1709682) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088792)

Right now me just howling naked savage. What are my options? The various tribes and their benefits. Me no run'um Oobuntoo, so me not one of them.

advertising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088794)

This is what advertisers want. It is what anyone in charge wants. Or indeed anyone who wants to be in charge wants.

That sounds like (0, Redundant)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088796)

something an Ubuntard would say. No sane person would listen to him or use Ubuntu :P.

To be honest, though, I don't like Ubuntu and I prefer SUSE.

Natural progression? (1)

xclay (924789) | more than 4 years ago | (#33088876)

Where else would you find people deeply committed as people in free software community? I think this type of tribalism comes with territory, and one of consequential driving forces behind free software movement. We are talking about at least the sweat equity, and the investment of identity -- which are both valuable human assets. Just look at small, infrequent punches that Linux throws at others. We forgive him because he's been a part of significant history, but it becomes harder and louder as you deal with those who may not be as talented or fortunate.

Very thoughtful paper of Mark (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33088958)

Mark is telling an old story again, but it is obviously necessary to repeat this very insight especially when it is done so well. In the end it is still the idea that you should use reason and not some prejudgment to classify things. You may read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment to understand the stuff behind it. It find it particular interesting that the Wikipedia article states that the Age of Enlightenment has ended. I strongly recommend to start it all over again (without the mistakes of course that would not be very enlightened).
 

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