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China Gives Microsoft 20 Days To Respond To Competition Probe

samzenpus posted about 3 months ago | from the explain-yourself dept.

Microsoft 79

An anonymous reader writes "China has given Microsoft three weeks to explain "compatibility issues" in Windows and Office that could violate Chinese competition laws. The State Administration for Industry and Commerce (SAIC) questioned Microsoft Vice President David Chen and gave the company a deadline to make an explanation, the agency said in a short statement on its website. Microsoft's use of verification codes also spurred complaints from Chinese companies. Their use "may have violated China's anti-monopoly law", the official Xinhua news agency said on Monday."

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Free market escapades! (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799851)

China is more concerned about free economics than the US? Weird.

Re:Free market escapades! (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799861)

No, China is more concerned about free economics than US corporations.

Re:Free market escapades! (4, Interesting)

ruir (2709173) | about 3 months ago | (#47799883)

Or are they more concerned about updating thousands or billions of pirated Microsoft workstations? They could at least use it as an opportunity to promote their version of Linux.

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about 3 months ago | (#47800007)

TBH, in a world were IP and bullshit flies rampant around the globe. What you said is basically the same thing as being concerned about free economics. Liaise faire motherfuckers.

Re:Free market escapades! (2)

flayzernax (1060680) | about 3 months ago | (#47800011)

Lastly, I'm sure some libre office nerd in the Chinese Aristocracy probably got pissed when they tried to recently open an msword file and saw a lot of jibberish. It was bound to happen eventually.

Re: Free market escapades! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800021)

Chinux?

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

ilguido (1704434) | about 3 months ago | (#47800641)

From the TFA: "Microsoft's new obstacles in China come as the government reportedly begins ramping up efforts to build the nation's own operating system.".

Slowly withdraw all manufacturing from China (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47802271)

We need to stop helping China; let them figure out how to develop themselves with Russia as a main partner. China sits on the sidelines and arms terrorists and causes conflict and watches us spend out blood and treasure.

Re:Slowly withdraw all manufacturing from China (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47811819)

China sits on the sidelines and arms terrorists and causes conflict and watches us spend out blood and treasure.

america does it more.

china will force microsoft to opensource nt5.x

stupid

Re:Free market escapades! (4, Insightful)

Chrisq (894406) | about 3 months ago | (#47799871)

China is more concerned about free economics than the US? Weird.

No - both are very interested when it is to their advantage to be so, less interested otherwise

Re:Free market escapades! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800043)

I believe that chinese politicians didn't get enough bribes from Microsoft.
They'll milk Microsoft as much as possible.

Re:Free market escapades! (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799953)

Um no.
China is more concerned about actually having to PAY for all their windows instances. This is just an opening blow in that negotiation.

Re:Free market escapades! (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800289)

China doesn't give a rat's ass about free economics. A good example is that any venture on their soil has to be 51% owned by a Chinese interest. Try that shit in the US, and companies will laugh themselves silly, and set up shop elsewhere.

The issue is more of nationalism. Putting a foreign company up front of a Kafka-like kangaroo court is great for the domestic country's pride, as they have an enemy that stones can be hurled at. This is all the anti-Microsoft "investigations" are.

At least the EU made it damn clear what they were investigating and what they were charging companies for, even though they do have a tendency to haul MS and Google on the carpet when they need a PR boost (when in doubt, some anti-Yank sentiment keeps the political office secure.) China's anti-monopoly stuff is just plain vague, and appears to be more of an extortion move than actual order of law.

Re:Free market escapades! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800939)

^ This. China sees the US leading the tech industry and wants to ensure that their companies come first. If anything Google is the monopoly to worry about, but China will get to them, too. Just wait.

Re:Free market escapades! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47801519)

Yes... Soon everyone will be speaking Mandarin.

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

Livius (318358) | about 3 months ago | (#47800585)

Yet unsurprising.

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

murdocj (543661) | about 3 months ago | (#47800827)

If you think this is about free economics, China has a bridge it wants to sell you.

Re:Free market escapades! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47801721)

Yeah, hassling/shaking down foreign companies over imagined wrongdoing, for political purposes. Truly 'free economics'.

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

HiThere (15173) | about 3 months ago | (#47802043)

Imagined? I doubt that. From what I read in the summary it sounded like they were pissed off when their old programs couldn't read the new file format. To me that sounds fair. I don't think very highly of breaking backwards compatibility. It's occasionally necessary, but extremely more rarely than it is done. Usually it seems a strategy to force a purchase of new versions. And to me that sounds like abuse of a dominant market position. (I'd say abuse of monopoly, but somebody always thinks that means there aren't any competitors.)

Re:Free market escapades! (1)

kaatochacha (651922) | about 3 months ago | (#47808661)

Wait, did you just tie non-backwards compatibility to monopoly dominance?
Seems to me if someone wanted to maintain a monopoly, they'd stay forever backwards compatible, to keep people from ever changing.

Re:Free market escapades! (2)

HiThere (15173) | about 3 months ago | (#47809309)

You're leaving out profit. Once you feel secure in your monopoly, then incompatible upgrades are a benefit, because they force users to upgrade.

And well they should. (4, Insightful)

Shaman (1148) | about 3 months ago | (#47799869)

No government should be forcing its citizens into proprietary software which writes its data in proprietary ways without good, permanent ways to retrieve that data in the far future. Formats like OpenDoc are fully documented and open to public scrutiny. Not to mention the costs and risks of dealing with licensing; working with software that has no source code available.

Re:And well they should. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799913)

I would support OpenDoc if it didn't suck so hard. I don't like proprietary either, but it's the current alternative is terrible.

Re:And well they should. (4, Interesting)

Dishevel (1105119) | about 3 months ago | (#47799975)

I use Open Office daily at work. We have many PCs running open office here. I allow MS Office on one computer at the office for fuckwads that can not figure out how to not send us DOCX. Works great.

Re:And well they should. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800471)

Use LibreOffice, it copes way better with DOCX. And can write it too, unlike Open Office.

Re:And well they should. (1)

Dishevel (1105119) | about 3 months ago | (#47800533)

I actually like Open Office better. The DOCX stuff should seriously just die. Most versions of MS Office can not even deal with it.

Re:And well they should. (1)

DogDude (805747) | about 3 months ago | (#47799949)

No government should be forcing its citizens into proprietary software which writes its data in proprietary ways without good, permanent ways to retrieve that data in the far future.

You're right. Glad no government is doing that!

Re:And well they should. (1)

Shaman (1148) | about 3 months ago | (#47800553)

> You're right. Glad no government is doing that!

*sigh*

Re:And well they should. (5, Insightful)

nashv (1479253) | about 3 months ago | (#47799979)

You seem to believe that the reason people use Microsoft Office is because they are unaware of the more sensible choice. People use Microsoft Office because people resist change, and collections of people in bureaucracies resist change even more.

Proprietary nature of information storage is considered a plus in bureaucratic circles - because many institutions have more money in their budgets than IQ or technical expertise in their staff. Proprietary means that when it breaks , somebody can be held responsible. It means that when someone doesn't understand something, they can fall back on their pre-existing knowledge of how to use a telephone and call support - thereby also absolving themselves on paper. The reason for work not done can be provided to superiors as "There is a problem with the software. Technical support is looking into it." The alternative would be to actually delve into the thing and try to fix it yourself - but that would involve learning something - which is not their job.

Neither does it help that when it comes to open formats, the best answer you can expect is "You found a bug? Submit a patch".

Open source software typically lacks a central authority that bureaucrats can complain to , sue if necessary, when things go wrong. The risk of licensing that you talk of is not even a factor - because the incentive to minimize one's own effort is higher than actually getting the task at hand done.

This is always going to be a major problem unless mitigated by a Red-Hat like model of doing business. Still, the geek community fails hard at understanding why the typical institutions still use licensed and proprietary software. They are trying to approach the problem from the logical point of view, while what is at play here is human psychology, behaviour, and administrative politics.

Re:And well they should. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800457)

Give me a break. There is nothing stopping a company from fixing bugs itself or outsourcing to a company to do so. There is a reason Redhat makes money and you've already pointed that out. This idea that the license somehow negatively impacts business is propaganda at its best.

Re:And well they should. (1)

bondsbw (888959) | about 3 months ago | (#47800583)

There is nothing stopping a company from fixing bugs itself

If the company doesn't hire programmers, or if their programmers are not competent at the particular language/APIs/tools at hand, then this path would require hiring new developers and potentially purchasing development software. So in this case, cost may be stopping the company.

or outsourcing to a company to do so.

Assuming this even exists. Only a few of the open source projects I've used have any type of paid support, which brings the company back to paying for their own developers.

Granted, the company probably saved a lot of money by using open source in the first place. But in the end, many companies will choose to foot a larger bill if they can budget for it in advance. "We will need $100,000 for Office licenses" often sounds better than "We didn't budget for it, but it turns out we need $30,000 for various unforeseen development expenses."

Re:And well they should. (1)

bondsbw (888959) | about 3 months ago | (#47800651)

(I wish there were an edit button.)

I just wanted to explain the reason budgeting in advance is preferred, at risk of stating the obvious. Companies tend to have a lot of moving parts, and if part P needs to be ready by date D, it may be due to dependencies. Those dependencies are in many forms including additional development that needs part P, time for QA, deadlines promised to the customer, and so on.

So if suddenly part P is going to take 5 days more to fix a bug that was unforeseen in a third party component, that could have a major effect on getting everything to market. What if QA has a tight schedule and, 5 days later, already has something else scheduled for testing? It might be a month or two before they get around to getting your component tested. Same applies to other forms of dependency.

Re:And well they should. (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | about 3 months ago | (#47801617)

usually though its "we need $100,000 for office licences, plus $30000 for unforseen developmental and admin expenses".

However, you're right in that its easier to ask for a budget, and the bigger the budget the more important a manager you are, so therefore, you buy the most easily explained tool that costs the most. And then you pad it out with that office 365 rollout, and the sharepoint site that never gets used.

Re:And well they should. (1)

nabsltd (1313397) | about 3 months ago | (#47802673)

But in the end, many companies will choose to foot a larger bill if they can budget for it in advance. "We will need $100,000 for Office licenses" often sounds better than "We didn't budget for it, but it turns out we need $30,000 for various unforeseen development expenses."

It also rarely matters what the total cost turns out to be, but rather the per-seat cost.

If you can get a big enough volume discount, $200 or so per seat doesn't look bad considering that it's a purchase (Office doesn't require yearly fees), and you get a lot more support overall (both official through MS and various help web sites).

Re: And well they should. (0)

bondsbw (888959) | about 3 months ago | (#47802841)

Office 365 is a subscription plan with yearly costs. But I feel it is a better plan since any future release is included, and generally costs less in the long run vs. purchasing each version as it cones out.

Re:And well they should. (3, Insightful)

pete6677 (681676) | about 3 months ago | (#47800687)

LOL, good luck suing Microsoft when Office fucks up and causes you some sort of damages. They are liable for nothing, and might eventually patch the bug if they deem it worth fixing.

Re:And well they should. (2)

InfiniteZero (587028) | about 3 months ago | (#47801237)

Liability not in the sense of suing someone, but in the sense that you won't be liable and your ass is safe.

Say you are the CIO of a company. If you pick MS and something goes wrong, you can shift the blame onto MS. If you pick OSS and something goes wrong, well, the blame will be on you.

Hence the old adage: nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.

Re:And well they should. (1)

pete6677 (681676) | about 3 months ago | (#47813761)

This only works in large CYA-driven companies where upper management is clueless to anything technological. In startups, there is no time for the blame game. Hence, startups tend to eschew Microsoft/IBM.

Re:And well they should. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800797)

You seem to believe that the reason people use Microsoft Office is because they are unaware of the more sensible choice. People use Microsoft Office because people resist change, and collections of people in bureaucracies resist change even more.

Um, I think Microsoft Office is actually pretty good. I got used to the Ribbon interface and like it more than the older one from 2003. It's pretty great... *ducks*

Re:And well they should. (3, Insightful)

Lennie (16154) | about 3 months ago | (#47801301)

Do not confuse open formats and open source software. These are 2 different things.

Re:And well they should. (1)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | about 3 months ago | (#47804989)

It's true, but in the office suite space, the only programs that properly support open formats are currently OSS.

The standard version of MOO-XML isn't implemented by MS Office (it still only supports the "transitional" version).

MS Office does it's best to break ODF documents when possible as far as I can tell. It destroyed all the formulas in ODS sheets last time I tried editing one in Excel.

Re:And well they should. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800047)

More likely they need to bribe someone.

Oh, well, the sacrifices they make for that "great" market ...

Re:And well they should. (1)

jader3rd (2222716) | about 3 months ago | (#47800061)

No government should be forcing its citizens into proprietary software which writes its data in proprietary ways without good, permanent ways to retrieve that data in the far future. Formats like OpenDoc are fully documented and open to public scrutiny. Not to mention the costs and risks of dealing with licensing; working with software that has no source code available.

If China wasn't conducting this probe, how would China be 'forcing' its citizens to use proprietary software? How is this probe removing the forcing of the use of proprietary software?

Re:And well they should. (2)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 3 months ago | (#47800121)

If the government using MSOffice and you have to send and receive documents from the government, the government effectively forces you to use proprietary software.

Re:And well they should. (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 3 months ago | (#47800439)

And the way to fix that is to launch a formal investigation into the supplier of the software? Bollocks.

Re:And well they should. (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 months ago | (#47801019)

office exports plain text, rich text and html ya know

Re:And well they should. (1)

jader3rd (2222716) | about 3 months ago | (#47801947)

If the government using MSOffice and you have to send and receive documents from the government, the government effectively forces you to use proprietary software.

Does the Chinese government force people to send documents in a proprietary format for which is there is no free software that can create that format?

Re:And well they should. (1)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 3 months ago | (#47802397)

I don't know. I do know that governments have, in the past, only accepted MS formats, and that even MS doesn't have perfect compatibility, which means that if you don't want to deal with the complications of compatibility, you are forced to have at least one machine in the office with MS Office.

Re:And well they should. (1)

kaatochacha (651922) | about 3 months ago | (#47808751)

But if that's the case, then the government should simply say "Do not us the proprietary MS format going forward, use format X". I don't see how Microsoft factors into this, other than grandstanding.

Re:And well they should. (1)

jader3rd (2222716) | about 3 months ago | (#47810883)

I don't know. I do know that governments have, in the past, only accepted MS formats, and that even MS doesn't have perfect compatibility, which means that if you don't want to deal with the complications of compatibility, you are forced to have at least one machine in the office with MS Office.

If that's really the concern here, should China be conducting a probe against itself, not Microsoft?

Re:And well they should. (1)

Stan92057 (737634) | about 3 months ago | (#47800851)

Nothing is stopping FOSS from buying a license to said code why should they be allowed to get things for free? Oh wait this is communist china where 95% of the window computers are pirated. China is not an open free market.

Re:And well they should. (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 months ago | (#47801009)

so let them use linux and open office, whats the problem here

oh they want their cake and eat it too, for free apparently as well

Re:And well they should. (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | about 3 months ago | (#47801743)

meh., they want their cake.... and they want Microsoft to pay for it, a huge cake, larger than you could ever eat in a lifetime, with cherries on top.

Worked for the EU after all !

Chinese angry about verification codes (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799881)

Apparently just having the .iso file should be good enough. If Microsoft products can't be easily pirated, then China is pissed.

Re:Chinese angry about verification codes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799919)

Yep. The culture of pirated Windows XP installations really shines through. Now China is pissed as the activation system in Windows 8 is trickier to circumvent and they might need to pay full price for each license.

Re:Chinese angry about verification codes (1)

pepty (1976012) | about 3 months ago | (#47800009)

True, but the anti-monopoly justification is being used against foreign corporations in lots of different industries: mobile phones,car parts, eyewear, shipping... they're also using other methods to go against foreign drug companies. Getting "Windows on the cheap - Or Else" is just one part of China flexing its muscles in new ways.

Re:Chinese angry about verification codes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800503)

Whatever. It's a kleptocracy. Corruption rules in China and I have no sympathy for western corps that wade into China with dollar-sign eyeballs and get raped.

Re:Chinese angry about verification codes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800795)

They purchased at least one copy of XP and office.
They it so much it multiplied across thousands of computers.
Win7 somewhat the same story.
Now the issue is between the activation and Win shit 8.
If China stops bitching and stays away from Win8 they would be smart, Win8 sucks!

china might not roll over as easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799891)

China is not likely to roll over as easy as the US did after Microsoft cranked up the brib^h^h^h^hcampaign donations [wsj.com] in the way of the US antitrust case.

What is there surprising? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47799943)

Windows and Office are full of Microsoft's proprietary technologies, the same way OS X is of Apple's. That shouldn't be news to anyone. I wonder what China is trying to accomplish with this. Just install Linux then and you can have all your open standards. What, you say that the QA of Linux desktop is terrible and not suitable for enterprise deployments? Yeah, that might be a problem...

Did I mention fuck Beta? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800001)

What the hell is this crap still doing alive??

DICE don't get it. They never will.

China?? Competition?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800017)

Lol, that's a good one. Whenever an American company competes with a Chinese one, they typically ban it to ensure the Chinese one wins (think Facebook, Google, Twitter...)

Harry Reid says: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800035)

"One problem that Microsoft is having is keeping their Wongs straight."

What laws? (1)

jader3rd (2222716) | about 3 months ago | (#47800077)

So which laws are being violated? Did China give Microsoft a specific list of complaints, and if so what are those complaints?

Re:What laws? (2)

andrewbaldwin (442273) | about 3 months ago | (#47800125)

I suspect it's on the other side of the paper containing the list of patents Microsoft is claiming Android violates.

"Chinese competition laws" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800081)

Are you kidding me??

Known Chinese trick. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800117)

They try to force Microsoft to give them source code, so they can pirate it and create "competitive" product.

It might not be just about competition (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800407)

I'm no fan of the Redmond beast, but this might not be just about competition. China has been moving from bluish-reddish China to Seriously Red China lately. Its true though that Microsoft's products *are* incompatible, and not just with Linux and every other system out there, but with previous and future products of their own. They go out of their way to make products that don't work with anything else even their own former products are incompatible. Fortunately, unlike in the US under the Bush Administration, China will take strong action, and there is nothing the Beast from Redmond(tm) can do about it.

retire IE (2)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 3 months ago | (#47800547)

Its a magnet for stupid lawsuits and everyone hates it anyway.

And seriously why does MS care what browser you use... they make nothing on it either way.

of course, every OS comes with a preinstalled browser... Possibly MS should just install the chinese browser instead in china. I'm sure the chinese have something appropriately stupid to foist on people. Throw that at them and then everyone can be annoyed by the chinese government for the first five minutes of using a new machine before they uninstall it and install something they'd rather have instead.

Re:retire IE (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47800961)

You are very.. very.. shortsighted about this. If you think this is about MS at all, you're missing the big picture. This is about China not wanting the US to dominate tech anymore. China wants Baidu, their own Linux OS, and anything else to be based from China. They want you learning mandarin as it will reduce their localization costs.

Re:retire IE (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 3 months ago | (#47801669)

Yes and everyone always attacks MS over the stupid browser. how about if you shipped windows in china with a version of IE that was really limited. Basically a crap version of IE that was just good enough to go download something better but quite obviously not a viable mainline browser. And by all means, let them install IE if they CHOOSE to do so but make sure that they have to choose to make that happen.

Look, I know exactly what china is doing. Same thing Russia did when they shut McDonald's down for health violations. Its a pretext to do protectionism. Which is fine. All nations piss in each other's coffee like this... but MS should probably do something to make it harder to cite them for violations. The browser issue is absurd at this point. But the chinese are going to use anything they think is even halfway credible.

About time.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47802123)

Microsoft has been flagrantly violating competition law in more corrupt countries for years by locking people into their software through undocumented & incompatible protocols and file formats. Hopefully the Chinese government will at last fix this problem.

Clean your own house first (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47802427)

Maybe China should take their Anti-Monopoly (Monopoly defined as the exclusive possession or control of something.) law and use it against the single political party system they have before worrying about anything else.

hum (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47803879)

You can use powershell or vb script to download web browsers but it's unlikely average joe will know how to do this if there is no IE available for Windows. MS has too many damn employees especially all of the world, 100k+. MS needs to cut down to at least 40k employees(all redmond) and just close all offices overseas. I read somewhere the majority of employees are not coders. Just freaking simplify things just get rid of the European and Chinese headaches. They will save more money and probably be able to reduce freaking product costs.

If the rest of the world is not happy with the way MS OS products are bundled with their IE than they should move to Linux and that's the end of that. MS should not fear Linux anyway. The De's are buggy, too internet dependent when it comes down to software installations(dependencies issues), no regression testing which leads to newer bugs, still needs the cli when you need to install newer software for a frozen in time distro or really just to fix issues, there aren't any open source software that can really compete against Windows based software. No gimp is not photoshop and blender is not maya.

MS needs to simplify their operations to relieve all the headaches and become more efficient.

Ah, up to playing games again, China.. (2)

Rick in China (2934527) | about 3 months ago | (#47803957)

China already beat Google's ass, I suppose it's MS's turn. MS was pretty much OK with the fact China has free-for-all piracy with their OS/office products with the expectations that they would be charging companies for licenses and the more people are familiar with/use their OS the more it'll be the OS of choice in the future, any computer plaza has any version available for 5 yuan (less than a buck), fully cracked..but now that China is putting some effort into getting involved in the desktop OS game - target MS! Fun.

I know first hand that the SAIC *can be controlled* like an attack dog, it's a very corrupt agency. I'm not saying that MS isn't in breach of any regulations or anti-monopolistic practices in this case...what I'm saying is China doesn't typically give a shit about anything media/software companies are doing until they have an interest or feel a threat, then they decide to bring the hammer down hard and there is very little you can do about it because the general public doesn't care enough to start a ruckus - pirated copies of whatever you're selling will always be available anyways. If anyone could have evaded, Google would have - but simply got exhausted and pulled out with significant internal pains (and continuing pains.)

Microsoft should respond, (1)

CHIT2ME (2667601) | about 3 months ago | (#47811569)

Microsoft should respond to the Chinese; Where is the payment of all those thousands or billions of pirated MS operating systems being used in China? You have 20 days to pay up or we shut down all Microsoft software in China!

The CCP is very desperate these days. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47812919)

I am a Chinese working as a China analyst at a think tank. It is becoming more and more apparent to many people, that the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) knows it is on its last straw of survival.

The party is facing severe and endlessly increasing systematic stress on all fronts:

1. Increasing external oppositions from all other countries in the world including all of China's neighbours. They are forming more and more alliances and becoming more outspoken with rising strengths against China, in addition to increasing anti-China sentiment from people in all other countries. Many countries including Canada and Australia and U.S. have just tightened their immigration policy to prevent Chinese from entering their countries. Even on these casual internet message boards, when you look past the paid Chinese propaganda professional commenters, you notice rising general anti-China feelings from all over the world.

2. Increasing internal severe and massive violent social unrest and anti-CCP mutiny from people of all Chinese living places. To beat down internal dissent in mainland China, the CCP every year is forced to spend even more money than on its massive military budget. All the semi-external places (Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, Macau) are fighting harder and harder to break free from China. Taiwan is for all practical purposes already a separate democratic country, with its own army specificly trained to fight the PLA, and anti-China sentiment there (especially among younger Taiwanese generation) is at all-time high after seeing how China violently suppress Hong Kong as an example of "reunification". This whole situation is continuously worsened by the free flow of information, with Chinese people knowing more and more from travelling abroad and learning about truths from jumping beyond the "Great Fire Wall" on the internet.

3. Its own economy and social system never able to advance to higher level beyond mass skill-less manufacturing, due to complete absence of law and common morals. High technology and innovations and scientific development all require many citizens working together voluntarily contributing long term in a system they trust, with things like rule of law, no censorship on knowledge, no restrictions on speech and expression, copyrights, open minds, patents, common morals when collaborating and trading with each other etc. These qualities are all destroyed in modern China by the CCP. When was the last time you heard an announcement of technology development or innovations or scientific breakthrough coming from a Chinese organization / company / university? You haven't because there ain't any. Unlike mass manufacturing factory work, high level human developments cannot be forced by or bought with a dictator's central planning. The only way contemporary China gets these things is from stealing and spying from all other countries e.g. using Chinese scientists working overseas to steal secrets, installing spywares in foreign executives' electronic devices when they enter China etc, but these efforts have become more difficult since the whole world has caught on to their act.

This systematic fatal flaw is why you do not see even one Chinese brand or company that can compete in the international market in any industry of the human race. For example Lenovo, who is already one of the few Chinese brands some people may have heard of, cannot make either the chips that power their computers or the operating system that run them, so it is just one of many plain vanilla boxmakers without any competitive advantage offering only cheap price. Another example Huawei is blacklisted by many countries and international customers because everyone knows Huawei's products send all communication data back to the CCP. This CCP weakness is also why China cannot produce even one home-grown science Nobel Prize winner in its history, nor one famous business guru, nor one inspiring leader, nor one cultural icon, not even a third rate national soccer team ( Chinese work hard individually but do not work well with each other ). No rule of law in China also means no people or businesses, both Chinese and foreign, ever invest in China long-term or on a large scale because everything frequently change on a whim along with the political climate. No one trusts any contract or agreement in China because they are always broken by the Chinese and there is no legal protection whatsoever, meaning China can never advance to a knowledge economy or service economy. Your business can be seized from you any second by the military police working for someone with "guanxi". No rule of law also ensures Shanghai fail to become a financial city despite the CCP dumping huge resources into it for 30 years.

4. China's mass skill-less manufacturing itself is going away to other countries due to sharply increasing costs and openly hostile and unfair business environment full of frauds and sanctioned protectionism and government robberies. The labor force is endlessly more demanding in wages and benefits expectations and working conditions. It is further worsened by the rise of robotic automatic manufacturing and 3D printing. This situation is a death knock to the "growth-based legitimacy" of the CCP, which is the only thing CCP can rely on for continuing ruling power. For sure Chinese people tolerate or even "like" the CCP when the economy seemingly explodes, but when one day it crashes and the country's hopeless bad shape hit them in the face the people's "support" for the CCP will turn on a dime.

Since six months ago, all the major economic indicators for China have gone on a continuing nosedive - including manufacturing orders, export volume, commercial investments, graduate employment rate, corporate credits, foreign capital inflow, domestic consumptions, real estate prices, consumer spendings, luxury goods demand, HSBC Service PMI, survey of business sentiments etc. Suddenly all the rich Chinese tourists gobbling up luxury goods at different world cities seem to have disappeared altogether. The CCP is on its last resort of printing literally trillions of worthless renminbi to dump into massive failing and zero-ROI "state projects" that only enrich corrupted CCP officials. China's gigantic multi-year increase of M2 money supply (it is afraid to publish the figures citing "national security") causes way more long-term harm on itself than short-term help, and when that is over there is nothing else the CCP can do to prop up the failing economy. China currently ranks 82nd on GDP per capita and that is the highest it can go before falling sharply in the coming near future.

5. Fierce unstoppable purges and mutually-destructive infighting among different factions within the party, who are imprisoning and killing each other every day. This power grab goes on under the laughable thin guise of "anti-corruption drive" when everyone knows all officials in china are corrupted. No work to manage the country or guide the ship is being done while this is going on.

6. Its many previously-suppressed fatal problems have all grown too big to be contained all catching up to the CCP e.g.

- severe carcinogenic poisonous pollution everywhere in air and water and soil and their own food etc, with the WHO issuing multiple warnings on Chinese population having the fastest cancer growth rate in the whole world
- skyrocketing non-performaing loans, local government bad debts, world's biggest amount of corporate debt leveraged to the hilt, "shadow banking" liabilities , unrepayable dodgy financial products etc, their true scope no one on Earth knows because all data from China are faked
- biggest housing bubble in human history, in addition to innumerous crumbling "ghost cities" and shoddily-built vanity project "GDP-creating" infrastructure that cannot and will not be used
- rapidly aging demographics with a 140:100 male:female ratio and world's lowest reproductive rate (from one child policy, culture of "leftover women", and many Chinese families killing their own daughters so as to chase boys)
- world's no.1 wealth inequality, with a Gini coefficient rivaling 18th century France just before the French revolution
- complete absence of soft power / cultural influence / social attraction, partly due to CCP censorship. One result of which is minimal and sharply dwindling number of foreign professionals and tourists and students going to China. It also means the CCP only has force as the only tool to use on the international stage
- all Chinese chasing foreign-brand goods and services while ditching low-quality Chinese-brands, who have a well known history of poisoning their own food and their own baby formula so as to make more money. This dashs CCP's hope to build indigenous industries and a domestic consumption economy
- gigantic need for food, energy, clean water and other vital resources bought from many foreign countries because China make few of them but need more and more of them
- desperate mass exodus at all levels of Chinese society to escape the country using emigration or buying houses / study abroad or marriage to foreigners or plain old human smuggling, resulting in all able Chinese leaving taking huge amounts of talents and money out of the country
- global trends of wealth polarization and robots replacing humans mean massive unemployment pressure for vast majority of the 1.4 billion population
- corruptions and fraud throughout the whole rotten core of a system
- young chinese today are all single child, many of them spoilt princes and princesses only used to coddling and indulgement by their parents and grandparents. They want all the nice things they see on the internet, they refuse to stoically slave away "for the country", they will only accept nice-paying cushy office jobs so they can spend all day glued to their smartphones and mobile games, otherwise they would rather live at home on the support of their parents
- the law of large numbers, "middle-income trap", "Minsky moment", "Lewis inflection point" all work against the growth-based legitimacy CCP desperately needs for its survival

Most importantly, the CCP knows that if 1.4 billion Chinese learn about basic human qualities such as morals, truth, justice, human rights, rule of law, fairness, freedom, universal values etc the CCP will be toppled very quickly. Therefore its state-controlled brainwashing education and propaganda machinations ensure a complete lack of morals and regard for laws in all Chinese growing up and beyond. This casues Chinese not follow any rules or integrate into the system because there is neither internal incentive (moral code) or external restrictions (legal guidance). This results in failure in all basic aspects of human interactions with every modern Chinese, whether it is business trading / personal dealings / technology development / creating innovations / human communications / scientific research / artistic expressions / teamwork collaborations / academic exchange etc. Another propaganda brainwashing technique used by the CCP is to make all Chinese people pathologically nationalistic and very emotional on this issue, so the CCP can always create and point to some "foreign enemies" so as to hide all the domestic crises and government robberies going on. This attention-diverting technique is the same trick magicians have used for more than a thousand years to fool their audience.

An interesting example would be the Chinese reaction to this report - they are expected to dismiss this report as total rubbish, accuse the author "unpatriotic" for saying the truth, shout China will only become richer and stronger than all other countries, yet they will give no counter-arguments and they will make no acknowledgement to the horrible factual conditions and complete lack of basic human qualities listed above in modern China. Ironically, the longer Chinese people deny or refuse to acknowledge the CCP problem, the longer they are only digging themselves into the hole and hurting themselves for any chance of recovery, causing the chinese economy to crash even further. Consider the example of Google, Facebook, Wikipedia, Youtube, Whatsapp, Twitter, Instagram etc - these services are all completely banned in China while at the same time the rest of the planet are on these services every second communicating ideas with each other, making friends, exchanging knowledge, doing business, working together, improving science and technology and arts, and advancing humanity.

Some people say China economically developed a lot in past 20 years, but the truth is this "development" is actually debt borrowed against the future. After the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre of their own students, in order to survive and hang on to power, the CCP was forced to pursue short-term explosive economic growth that sacrifice everything else, including a foundation or potential for long-term economic and social development. This "scorched earth" policy is like winning the lottery for corrupted CCP officials who can rob a lot of money from the country in the short-term before escaping to America. The only entity left to suffer is China's future from this point on, a country that has been turned by the CCP into a place with no law, no morals, no system for future scientific or economic or social development, no spiritual support apart from money, no trust or cooperation among Chinese, no trust or goodwill from foreigners, no other country as friends, all resources sold away cheaply, entire environment and air and water and soil and food fatally polluted, only social recognition is to make a lot of money for "face", no creativity or personal development for Chinese young people, a populus not allowed to know the truths and not allowed to say the truths.

The end result is that majority wealth of this "debt borrowed against the future" has gone to the 0.0000001% elite ruling class "princeling" CCP families (about 250 of them) who have already smuggled trillions of dollars abroad along with their U.S. passports and their own children (all Chinese elites and Politburo members hold foreign passports, with U.S. and U.K. being the most sought after choice). For the CCP in 1989, 1.4 billion people is great central-planning asset when the country start from nothing and you order them to do backbreaking mass manufacturing repetitive factory work 20 hours a day without worker protection of any kind. But in the 2014 borderless knowledge economy when that no longer works, 1.4 billion immoral and uncooperative and selfish and undeveloped and angry Chinese contained in a lawless system without any hopes of growth is very, very dangerous liability for the CCP.

All debts against the future have to be paid back - China is no exception. That moment may arrive a bit later than expected but it surely will come, as it has on 100% of occasions in human history. The reason that moment arrive a bit later than expected is because in normal countries bad conditions correct themselves with short periods of market ups and downs, but in China the CCP suppress all problems and criticisms until inevitable system meltdown. For China the moment has arrived to suffer the consequences for all its own chosen actions in past 30 years. All the festering fundamental systematic problems listed above and much more, are only getting worse and worse everyday until one day when the system can suddenly no longer bear.

Think USSR in 1989.

( Cliff notes summary for the smartphone generation with ADD, ADHD and Asperger's:

- The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) signed a deal with the devil to pursue miraculous short-term economic growth
- Miraculous short-term economic growth has been achieved, now China has hit the wall on its path of no return, many bad conditions have caught up
- CCP cannot go on externally, it cannot go on internally, economy has no way to go but greatly down, many fatal cancers and huge structural problems from the past now overwhelming the country
- Something has to break, what happens is anyone's guess, guaranteed to greatly impact China and the world )

What? China accepted the terms! (1)

nesdave1 (935109) | about 3 months ago | (#47821325)

When Gates set up the deal to outfit China with MS OS, they didn't mind the product controls.Now they want to change the game plan? Someone better explain the contract to them.
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