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Google Backs Out of JavaOne

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the but-java-is-delicious dept.

Google 344

snydeq writes "Citing concerns about Oracle's lawsuit against it, Google has backed out of the upcoming JavaOne conference. 'Oracle's recent lawsuit against Google and open source has made it impossible for us to freely share our thoughts about the future of Java and open source generally,' Google's Joshua Bloch said in a blog post. The move may signal eventual fragmentation for Java, with Google conceivably splintering off the Java-like language it uses for Android."

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i came first! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402362)

suck it nice and clean! XD

Re:i came first! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402438)

unlikely. your two hands were busy, one refreshing the page, the other ready for a control-v.

so, you could not have possibly fapped, or performed auto-fellatio.

ergo, you're lying.

Welcome to Niggerbuntu! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402524)

Niggerbuntu is a Linux-based operating system consisting of Free and Open Source software for laptops, desktops, and servers. Niggerbuntu has a clear focus on the user and usability - it should "Just Work", even if the user has only the thinking capacities of a sponge. The OS ships with the latest Gnomrilla release as well as a selection of server and desktop software that makes for a comfortable desktop experience off a single installation CD. It also features the packaging manager apeghetto, and the challenging Linux manual pages have been reformatted into the new 'monkey' format, so for example the manual for the shutdown command can be accessed just by typing: 'monkey shut-up -h now mothafukka' instead of 'man shutdown'.

Absolutely Free of Charge

Niggerbuntu is Free Software, and available to you free of charge, as in free beer or free stuffs you can get from looting. It's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom. The freedom to run, copy, steal, distribute, share, change the software for any purpose, without paying licensing fees.

Free software as in free beer!

Niggerbuntu is an ancient Nigger word, meaning "humanity to monkeys". Niggerbuntu also means "I am what I am because of how apes behave". The Niggerbuntu Linux distribution brings the spirit of Niggerbuntu to the software world. The dictator Bokassa described Niggerbuntu in the following way: "A subhuman with Niggerbuntu is open and available to others (like a white bitch you're ready to fsck), affirming of others, does not feel threatened by the fact that others species are more intelligent than we are, for it has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that it belongs to the great monkey specie." We chose the name Niggerbuntu for this distribution because we think it captures perfectly the spirit of sharing and looting that is at the heart of the open source movement.

!Good (1, Troll)

Warll (1211492) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402366)

The move may signal eventually fragmentation for Java, with Google conceivably splintering off the Java-like language it uses for Android.

Oracle should use their Java related patents to stop this from happening,

Oh wait...

Re:!Good (4, Interesting)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402468)

Except that Android doesn't run Java classes - it runs dalvik classes. It's like you taking a .doc file and converting it to pdf so that people don't need the Evil Word.

Java's dying anyway. It's a lot slower than dalvik, and Java simply hasn't lived up to its "write once run anywhere" claims. Just like it hasn't lived up to earlier promises to "reinvent the desktop", or before that, to "change the way we use the Internet with applets - remember them - to add interactivity.

What are they going to do when dalvik is extended to run on regular servers, and all those Java support contracts dry up? Just like is happening right now in the mobile space with the multi-fragmented JavaME? [javaverified.com] . Pretty bad when your core market tells you that the competition already raided your fridge, ate your breakfast and lunch, and took a dump on your supper.

Re:!Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402546)

It's a lot slower than dalvik

Proof? It's only been with the FroYo release that Google have finally introduced JIT compilation for Dalvik. Up until then it's been pretty abysmal for performance critical stuff, although thankfully Google have made it pretty easy to call out to native code using the NDK if you need to.

Java is a lot of things, but especially of late, slow is not one of them.

Re:!Good (3, Interesting)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402664)

Java is still a lot slower than native methods - it's also, unfortunately, so inflexible compared to, say, c, that you can't even consider using some algorithms that c programmers use all the time. That's what happens when you can't do pointer math - you lose a whole class of efficient ways to do things. Ditto for the lack of first-class functions, so no function pointers for you.

Dream on if yo believe that the JIT is competitive. Even if it were able to pre-compile everything to native methods, you still lack some of the essential programming models that people have been using for decades to make things go faster.

Re:!Good (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402756)

I wasn't asking for proof that native code will be faster than Java, I was asking for proof of your original statement that that Java (I assume you meant the JVM) is a lot slower than Dalvik.

But yes, you're right, there's a hell of a lot of stuff that Java (be it running on a JVM or Dalvik) just won't do well, and anybody wanting to write truly high performance software had really better get used to writing in lower-level languages, or at the very least, understanding their stack right down to the hardware level.

Re:!Good (4, Insightful)

Local ID10T (790134) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402806)

... anybody wanting to write truly high performance software had really better get used to writing in lower-level languages, or at the very least, understanding their stack right down to the hardware level.

This has always been the case.

Re:!Good (2, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402862)

The problem is that the Javanistas won't admit it - that Java sometimes, beyond a certain size, introduces MORE complexity than lower-level languages that are more flexible. To them, this is "utterly impossible" - but what do you expect from someone who is afraid to even attempt memory allocation. It's not that hard - just do like your mother taught you - put things back when you're finished with them.

In c, it means that you get in the habit of typing free() right after typing malloc(), then asking yourself, where does the free() really belong? Who is going to "own" this memory. If it doesn't fit naturally within that block, you need to make sure that it's taken care of somewhere else. Move the free() there, and paste in a comment as to who frees it.

In c++, it means making sure that every object owns its own resources, or you enforce a contract with any object it serves as a "factory" to, that the recipient will free it, but not both.

It is possible to write leak-resistant (even leak-free) code. It just takes some attention to detail. But at that point, you have a detrministic program, not one whose performance is dependent on when/if a garbage collector decides to do some cleanup - and you can also do away with the whole {smart|weak}_ptr garbage.

Re:!Good (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403046)

But yes, you're right, there's a hell of a lot of stuff that Java (be it running on a JVM or Dalvik) just won't do well, and anybody wanting to write truly high performance software had really better get used to writing in lower-level languages, or at the very least, understanding their stack right down to the hardware level.

Which "lower level languages" are you talking about?

Lower level languages are platform specific, and the only one people are using is assembler. I know that you didnt mean asembler.

I suppose you meant C. Its abstract machine has a generic concept of memory as a linear pool. Good enough to write operating system features that manage linear pools of memory, but decidedly not at all low level.

We can't even coerce a C compiler to emit x86 instructions like BT, BTR, and BTS.. instructions which test and manipulate individual bits (in registers or in memory) and are extremely useful (efficient!) for implementing things like a Bloom Hash, or just implementing bit arrays. In C the best we can do is use clunky full-word operations that can not get optimized down to BT, BTR, or BTS for multiple technical reasons.

Re:!Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403160)

You are aware that there is a difference between "lower" and "lowest", correct?

BT, BTR, BTS are a bad example (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403198)

These instructions are useless for high performance when you can test, reset and set multiple bits at a time with the use of and, or, xor and bitwise complement some of the sign extension features accessible in most high level languages.

The reason a compiler doesn't generate these is because they aren't worth generating, not because it is hard to detect a bit flip or a single bit test in C. (the latter can be done with a simple peep hole optimization!)

Re:!Good (4, Insightful)

MaggieL (10193) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402780)

you can't even consider using some algorithms that c programmers use all the time

Like buffer overruns.

Re:!Good (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403196)

Try such basic stuff as pointer arithmetic.

Re:!Good (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403370)

That's a technique, not an algorithm.

Re:!Good (1)

McGiraf (196030) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403396)

lol

True, but thats is the bad side of C letting you do whatever you want.

With C you are not constrained, you can do very clever things you cannot do in Java, or incredibly stupid things that Java will prevent.

The same happens when you remove the trainer wheels on a bicycle.

Re:!Good (4, Funny)

kevinNCSU (1531307) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402970)

Ah yes, C is good for domain-specific solutions but it doesn't adequately address the issue of multiple inheritance out of the box. (reference [qwantz.com] )

Re:!Good (1)

gabebear (251933) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402978)

Native code is always going to be 'potentially' faster than any interpreted language, but Java has quite a few optimization advantages because it doesn't use pointers. Interpreted has a lot of weak points(like overhead when all your program is doing is just calling native methods), but lack of pointers isn't all bad. http://scribblethink.org/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html [scribblethink.org]

The GP was responding to whether Dalvik is really faster than Java on other phones. A LOT of optimization has gone into the Java VM. Since Android doesn't run Java(which is why they are getting sued), this is difficult. There is a post comparing the Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 and the T-Mobile G1, which have nearly identical hardware specs. In that case, Dalvik was 8x slower. http://groups.google.com/group/android-platform/browse_thread/thread/ede9ba8c787661a1/f155644d757f7bbf?#f155644d757f7bbf [google.com]

Re:!Good (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403350)

Java, because you can't use pointer arithmetic, is going to be slower than the same code in c using pointer arithmetic, because a non-pointer solution is always going to be slower, in any language, even c.

The lack of pointers was the only way that Java could be implemented. Another reason was to keep both the class verifier the garbage collector simple. You can't "prove" code that can point to something different during the actual run. Both these restrictions introduce behind-the-scenes overhead, as well as restricting what you, the programmer, can write.

The lack of first-class functions is also another area where you are restricted in what you can code. You can't just have, say, a nice tight loop that executes a function, and calls address+mode*size_of_pointer_to_function - you need to write a switch or if/else. For things like modal parsers, this makes a difference. No one-line while() or for() for YOU! Your code, which fits nicely into the cpu cache, L1 cache, probably won't in Java, so the performance hit will be huge.

Re:!Good (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403438)

You don't have to use a switch. What you can do in this instance is create an array of objects, which can be anonymous inner classes, with a named method representing the function you want to call. Something like this (be aware I'm just typing this, I haven't tested it!):

:
:
abstract class switcheroo {
void function_to_call();
}

void setTrafficLight(int lightNo) {
switcheroo[] lightHandlers = new switcheroo[3];

lightHandlers[0] = new switcheroo {
void function_to_call() {
setUpRed();
}
};

lightHandlers[1] = new switcheroo {
void function_to_call() {
setUpAmber();
}
};

lightHandlers[2] = new switcheroo {
void function_to_call() {
setUpGreen();
}
};

lightHandlers[lightNo].function_to_call();
}

Of course, you'd want to optimize this a little more (set up the array before-hand rather than with every call, etc) but the point is you're left with pretty much exactly the same assembled code as you'd have had if you had been using an array of function pointers.

Is it more longwinded? Why yes! But one could also argue that (a) the number of cases you'd actually legitimately want to do the above is small, especially in an environment in which you have an object layer to abstract things and thus would want to split where you make code central, and where you make things data specific, along different lines, (b) it's inherently an unsafe technique.

I can honestly say that in the years I've been doing Java programming, I've never once needed, or wanted, to use an array of function pointers. The way you handle data is entirely different to that of C, you just don't end up needing this.

Java won't die anytime soon. (3, Insightful)

Pawnn (1708484) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402566)

It's still huge in Big Business, where COBOL also remains alive and well.

From what I've seen, it's still largely popular as a web application language for the server-side. Usually an alternative to .NET.

Re:Java won't die anytime soon. (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402814)

Not for long - by 2020 it will be the New COBOL.

Php became the #1 web server language in 2002 [lwn.net] - and that hasn't changed since, and isn't likely to. Most web sites don't use jsp/struts/spring/jsf

We call it a LAMP (or WAMP) stack for a reason.

Re:Java won't die anytime soon. (4, Insightful)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403306)

Php became the #1 web server language in 2002 [lwn.net] - and that hasn't changed since, and isn't likely to.

The article you link says it became the number one server side scripting language in 2002. While there isn't a really clear boundary of what is and isn't a "scripting" language, Java isn't included in any of the definitions generally used for that category, so in a discussion of Java, PHP's position among "scripting" languages -- server side or otherwise -- is pretty much irrelevant.

Re:Java won't die anytime soon. (1, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403384)

Java is an interpreted scripting language. It's also nowhere near number one - most hosting providers don't even offer it.

And before we get into *that* argument again ... Java is no more compiled than converting a word doc to a pdf is "compiling" it. You cannot execute the resulting class files directly - they need to be interpreted by the run-time (originally, they were supposed to be interpreted by a special "Java chip" - "write once, run anywhere" was the exact opposite of the original design goals).

If Sun had had any brains, they would have fixed the slowness of Java by including the ability to compile down to native code. Then they could have arguably had the best of both worlds.

But what do you expect from a project that changed its goals so many times, even in the early years?

Re:Java won't die anytime soon. (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403378)

This was a great troll - I almost fell for it :D

Only people in small jobs .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402822)

... keep saying that Java is dying.

People that have not worked in places where millions are handled by the hour should keep their opinions about coporate grade technologies to their good old selves.

Re:Only people in small jobs .... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403238)

... keep saying that Java is dying.

People that have not worked in places where millions are handled by the hour should keep their opinions about coporate grade technologies to their good old selves.

Not at all. The promise of Java is that it would be useful in everything from cell phones to set-top boxes to mainframes, and to an extent that has happened (Android runs a form of Java, and so do some set-top-boxes.) But, in the same way the Cobol is dead outside of a few specific (if important) market sectors, Java is likewise being marginalized. That's what usually happens to anyone or anything espousing the mantra of "one-size-fits-all". Now, I don't understand what Oracle's game is, just yet, but I'm guessing it doesn't have much to do with Java running outside their own playpen. In any event, Oracle isn't a particularly nice corporate citizen, so I suspect that whichever way Ellison decides to jump, a lot of people aren't going to like it.

Re:Only people in small jobs .... (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403248)

Java will eventually lose ground there as well for several reasons:

  1. energy and speed considerations - runtimes like dalvik offer a 50% speed boost. Native apps offer many times that in some circumstances.
  2. bloat management - the cost of bloat is becoming more apparent as Java fails to scale on the developer side because of early design mistakes.
  3. heterogenous data - Java doesn't do so well there, with the "there's a class for that" model.

#2 is currently the big issue. Once a Java project passes a certain complexity, any "it's simpler in Java" advantage is lost, and the Java language and development environment become a boat anchor.

Can't they technically fork it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402370)

I mean, they (Sun) open-sourced a huge chunk of it did they not?

It might mean having to remake some of the libraries, but hey, anything away from Oracles grip, right?
As great as they are with their services, they can be complete asses at times.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402392)

As great as they are with their services

That's news to me.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (1, Interesting)

The Snowman (116231) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402396)

I mean, they (Sun) open-sourced a huge chunk of it did they not?

It might mean having to remake some of the libraries, but hey, anything away from Oracles grip, right?
As great as they are with their services, they can be complete asses at times.

Sun did open source Java, and did wind up rewriting some of the native libraries to make it possible. What would happen, however, is renaming it due to trademarks now owned by Oracle. That brings up questions such as would Google need to rename portions of the code, such as package names? The entire JFC exists in the java.* and javax.* packages. What about the sun.* classes that are used under the covers? Those would be easier, since developers aren't supposed to use them directly.

I think "open source Java" is a reality, but forking the project is not as easy as it sounds.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (1)

dna_(c)(tm)(r) (618003) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402592)

The entire JFC exists in the java.* and javax.* packages.

JFC is mostly a synonym of Swing. What you mean is that the standard libraries (mostly java.*) and extended libraries (javax.*) can not be expanded by anyone except Oracle/Sun/JCP.

Concerning the sun.* packages: these are VM specific implementations - nobody should be using them directly.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402482)

Sun open sourced Java, and you can easily fork it. You can't call it Java unless it still implements the specification correctly, but the license that Sun released the code under means that you are safe from patent problems.

Google's problem is that they did not fork Java, they reimplemented it. This means that they have no copyright problems and do not have to abide by the Java license (GPL + runtime exemption), but they do have potential patent problems. Sun / Oracle has a patent grant that permits the use of their Java-related patents in any complete implementation of the Java spec. Android, however, is not a complete Java implementation. It implements the core language and a number of the java.* classes, but it does not provide the entire java.* class hierarchy. This means that it is not covered by the patent grant.

In summary, open source Java is fine, open source almost-Java is not.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402662)

> In summary, open source Java is fine, open source almost-Java is not.

Where is the difference? Isn't that legal newspeak of corporate lawyers... and why we have a free software movement? I can't see how this sentence makes any sense to an open source developer.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (3, Insightful)

segin (883667) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402912)

So wouldn't Google's best option be for them to just implement the missing classes?

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (1)

naasking (94116) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403022)

Dalvik still wouldn't run JVM bytecodes, so I don't think it would a conforming implementation regardless. I haven't read the spec however, so I don't know if the bytecode is specified there or separately.

Re:Can't they technically fork it? (2)

stepheneb (9365) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403258)

In summary, open source Java is fine, open source almost-Java is not.

If you make a derivation/fork with the open source Java code Oracle only extends patent grants if your fork passes Oracle's expensive certification tests for Java [sun.com] . This certification is impractical for most people or organizations and is inherently impossible for anybody who is interested in making a new language with the code or adapting some of the code for other purposes.

In summary:

  • an alternative open source Java is quite difficult because the of the costs of certification
  • use the open source Java codebase for anything else and Oracle can sue you for patent violations
  • contributing to Oracle's existing OpenJDK codebase is fine

Loss of confidence (5, Informative)

Duncan J Murray (1678632) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402378)

Looks like we're seeing a new loss of confidence in Java, much like the loss of confidence in mono, for which patent concerns stunted its uptake.

So where to next?

And where is my replacement for open office?

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402402)

its called google docs

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402408)

googledocs is your replacement for open office
enjoy it while it lasts

Re:Loss of confidence (5, Insightful)

The Snowman (116231) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402454)

Looks like we're seeing a new loss of confidence in Java, much like the loss of confidence in mono, for which patent concerns stunted its uptake.

No, we are seeing a loss of confidence in Oracle. Unfortunately, Oracle now owns Java. That means its future is a little foggy. Oracle has a serious hard-on for Java, which you can see because it is the only major database I know of that allows you to use Java in place of PL/SQL. Disclaimer: I haven't actually done this, but I did read about it while googling some issues I was having with an Oracle database.

So where to next?

I think there is room for two cross-platform environments such as .NET and Java. Right now, those are the players. I don't see the F/OSS community putting all their eggs in Microsoft's basket, even if people do use Mono to some extent. If Oracle succeeds in making Java their pool boy and effectively neutering OSS implementations of the language and JFC, another environment will need to rise to to the occasion. I think it would be a community effort to some degree, but driven largely by Google. I could see them forking Java and realizing that due to trademark and patent concerns they would need to make large changes, so they would make major changes, add a bunch of stuff, and turn it into one hell of a platform for mobile and network development. That was Java's original goal, but it has since bloated up well beyond that and I do mean bloat, not grow. Why do we need a total of three implementations of core JFC classes to do stuff like "read a JPEG," and two of them either don't work at all or only work if you drink unicorn blood while coding? Why are there two GUI implementations, and the one that makes sense is still a zombie built on top of decaying pieces of the AWT corpse?

Sun had so many opportunities to grow the JFC, add value, etc. but due to their intense fear of breaking backwards compatibility, they just layered more and more band-aids and duct tape on top of each other. At some point you need to do it right with new implementations and say "upgrade to version X, and deprecated crap is being removed. You are now warned."

Also, Java EE needs to be merged into Java SE. There should be two Javas. One for memory-constrained devices (embedded), and one for everywhere else. Java EE has been a pain in my ass for some time. Java doesn't need the extra complexity.

Re:Loss of confidence (1)

Haxamanish (1564673) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402530)

Oracle has a serious hard-on for Java, which you can see because it is the only major database I know of that allows you to use Java in place of PL/SQL.

Most databases have similar features, for example Sybase ASE [sypron.nl] & PostgreSQL [postgresql.org] .

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403144)

DB2 also. Java in database is even a standard.

Re:Loss of confidence (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403206)

they just layered more and more band-aids and duct tape on top of each other.

I think you're giving the argument why there's a general loss of confidence in Java. Google could (and probably will)
  do a lot better with a language that looks "quite a lot like" Java, yet isn't, in much the same way Microsoft did with C#. I'll be happy to see Java die off and be replaced with better. My biggest problem is that there will be several 'evolutionary' new languages instead of 1, but then, at the moment proprietary lock-in seems to be back with us again.

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402484)

You can just keep using old versions of OpenOffice, right?

That won't do forever, but it should buy a year or two for something else to swoop in.

Abiword is also good for word processing.

Re:Loss of confidence (1)

pionzypher (886253) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402538)

Trying not to be alarmist as this looks like a pretty specific case and while Sun was content to look the other way while Oracle isn't. It probably wouldn't hurt to discuss possible ports/alternatives. OO has always been more than good enough and the ubiquity given by java meant no gtk/qt squabbles. How would things go if Oracle decided to stop spending any resources on it? The license [openoffice.org] is LGPL. What about patents/CRs? Could someone fork oo or re-implement in another language without legally running afoul?

And no, being a corner case myself; google docs is not the answer.

Re:Loss of confidence (4, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402684)

Ximian, now Novell, did fork OO.o. You can get their fork at http://www.go-oo.org/ [go-oo.org] . The only reason that Sun maintained control over OO.o was that they provided most of the code. Last statistics I saw for OO.o contributions were around 80% Sun, 15% Novell, 5% everyone else. If Oracle doesn't keep up the contribution rate, then other forks will overtake theirs and be regarded as the main version. A lot of Linux distributions already include the Novell fork, rather than the main branch, as their OpenOffice.org package.

Re:Loss of confidence (0, Troll)

SgtChaireBourne (457691) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402812)

Novell forked the code because they are putting toxic elements that are unacceptable to the Free and Open Source Software community. The quantity of work is not the same as quality, and goals and licensing are yet another pair of separate factors. Novell is acting as Microshat's proxy to poison the code pool. They weren't allowed to shit in the core project so they made fork and are polluting that. I would say use at your own risk but by you using it, you make computing worse for the rest of us. So don't use anything from Novell.

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402686)

Actually Open Office is done in C++ and the interface is UNO.
I can't understand why actually think it's in Java. Any moderate GUI Java app (think netbeans, azureus) is PAIN in the ass, imagine a full-fledged office suite :-/. OOo is not lightning fast, but it's not slow at all neither.
UNO does have bindings in java, but open office do not use them (if you do not use java-related features that is)

You can run OOo perfectly fine without Java, I've been doing it for ages.

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Uno
Just want to clarified that point, since I hate Java with passion myself.

I do agree that google docs is no way a replacement for dozens of reason (privacy, stability, advanced features, sharing docs with some people, etc).

I don't think we have to be afraid in the near future. Even though if Oracle stop supporting it, it's still LGPL. Which means that even if Oracle prevent people from contributing/forking it (which I doubt they can), the last version will still be freely available. Which buys us a couple of years for the development of a replacement (or enhancements of abiword/gnumeric or kOffice) :)

Re:Loss of confidence (1)

pionzypher (886253) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402876)

Good info, thanks all for clearing that up for me.

Re:Loss of confidence (1, Interesting)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403158)

We are? What are the indications? The fact that Google has been sued for making a Java implementation that does not conform to the Java specification, and yet continues to call it Java?

It'll probably get me modded down, but I don't see this as a Bad Thing. When it comes to core Java systems (excluding GUI) it *is* write once run anywhere as long as you use the standard packages. Not only will it run on any JVM, it will also run in a predictable manner on any JVM (and I think this is one place where Google changes things - the behavior at execution time in some cases). I don't want a trusted vendor such as Google pushing a JVM implementation that is not compliant, yet still continuing to call it Java. Right now, when someone applies for a job as a senior Java developer, everyone knows what it means. When the JVM implementation is no longer standardized, developers start learning implementations instead of the platform -- quite possibly without knowing it.

If use a Java syntax with a custom JVM but called it something other than Java, I don't think Oracle would have complained.

Re:Loss of confidence (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403270)

Where have the ever called it Java?
The platform isn't called Java, the VM isn't called Java, and the language only says "Java like".

Re:Loss of confidence (0)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403444)

What is Android? [android.com] Just scroll down to "Applications." Where it specifically states:

All applications are written using the Java programming language.

That is completely unambiguously indicating that it's Java. So, if it doesn't include all the libraries that Oracle says are a part of Java, then they're definitely infringing on at very least Oracle's trademark.

Rob Pike and Ken Thompson at Google (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403274)

I think Google ought to encourage Rob and Ken to move their language experiments further along. And build up a solid toolset around that new (free) language for developers to adopt.
Right now they have Go [golang.org] , which needs to be taken a little further along to be as good a Limbo [wikipedia.org] . I think there was another language that they worked on, but I don't recall what it was.

In the meantime, a rival conference in the works (-1, Troll)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402390)

Google should clarify whether its action is related to this rival conference. [businessweek.com]

I'm glad (1, Informative)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402412)

The similarity of android's dev language with Java is only superficial. It's not really Java by a long way.

Now that Oracle's Java is showing its true colours and proving it's not really open source, I see no reason for Google (or any other company that backs open source) to support it.

This will lead to Java's death, and that's a good thing because it's WAY over-due.

Re:I'm glad (1)

leenks (906881) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402428)

I've never got the whole "death to java" thing - can you explain why you think its demise is way over due?

Re:I'm glad (0)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402548)

Because it was always a solution looking for a problem. The only "purpose" it ever had was to try to destroy Microsoft, which was always going to be a losing bet (remember that Microsoft released .Net the day after they lost the trial with Sun).

Yes, people managed to write some programs with it but it was never going to be good enough for the shrinkwrapped application market. It's been (mumble) years now but I'm still not using a single Java application for anything important (I think I've only ever installed one Java program on my machine), and neither is anybody else I know.

It didn't even get widely used for web applets - which was its original purpose.

Re:I'm glad (1)

dmesg0 (1342071) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402770)

... It's been (mumble) years now but I'm still not using a single Java application for anything important (I think I've only ever installed one Java program on my machine), and neither is anybody else I know.

I'm not using motorcycles and neither is anybody else I know. Does it mean motorcycles are dead?

(Sorry for the car analogy)

For bunnies sakes ... (3, Insightful)

jotaeleemeese (303437) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402868)

Do you have a bank account?

Most likely the back office operations are using Java in one way or another.

That is just for starters.

People saying that Java is dead and then refer to what is happening on their home computer simply show a degree og ignorance that is short of embarrasing.

Re:I'm glad (5, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402430)

Java's death means .NET and Windows in the server arena. Do you really want that?

Java is the defacto standard for most server apps these days as portals are replacing terminals and Java is used for industrial websites as well. This is truly horrible and no php or perl can not just replace it for mission critical servers. It is not hte language but the 200,000 methods and api's to choose from. Only .NET comes close ... not Mono.

Unintended consequences (2, Interesting)

k2r (255754) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402474)

> Java's death means .NET and Windows in the server arena.

That's an interesting theory and I agree with it.
I'm wondering if this really is one of the consequences Oracle indended with this lawsuit.
What value would the acquired Sun be if everybody switched to .NET/Windows on the long run to avoid Java?

Re:I'm glad (1)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402648)

What I want doesn't really matter. The fact is, Java is a very ugly programming language that has been chopped up, extended, distended, designed, redesigned and bloated over the many years it's been around... I'm by no means a Microsoft fanboi, but even C# is a nicer language to use, though tbh not that much nicer. What we need is a new standard, hopefully one that is really open source and comes with no strings attached.

Re:I'm glad (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402786)

You can use the JVM with other languages... Scala, Groovy, Clojure, Python, Ruby and more.

"Java" doesn't mean only the language, there's also the platform.

Re:I'm glad (1)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402830)

Don't get me started on the platform.

Re:I'm glad (2, Interesting)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403302)

Don't get me started on the platform.

Okay, I'm game. What's wrong with the platform?

Re:I'm glad (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402874)

Java's death means .NET and Windows in the server arena. Do you really want that?

BS

Still, less servers? Less people using Java?! TOUGH for Oracle.

Which portals?! Which apps?!

This is truly horrible and no php or perl can not just replace it for mission critical servers

True. But a mix of tech can. I just hope we don't have to go back to C++

Re:I'm glad (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402442)

So was it a good thing or a bad thing when Microsoft did a Google (or rather...) with their version of Java?

Re:I'm glad (0)

hedwards (940851) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402466)

There's nothing inherently wrong with Java. It would've been incredibly irresponsible of Oracle to allow Google to create a wholly incompatible "Java" under the Java name. This isn't a legitimate way of showing what the future of Java could be, this is more like horning in on somebody else's trademark and trying to get something for nothing. Had Oracle looked the other way, they would've both lost their trademark as well as lost any relevance that Java had in the first place as Java's main point is relative ease of cross platform compatibility, which won't happen if there's that degree of difference between platforms.

Re:I'm glad (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402560)

There's nothing inherently wrong with Java

So where are all the desktop applications...?

Re:I'm glad (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402610)

Think in-house corporate applications all over the world. Do a job search for 'swing'.

Re:I'm glad - jEdit. (1)

MadMaverick9 (1470565) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402726)

jEdit is one that works well for me ... and I am sure there more java apps.

Re:I'm glad (1)

gabebear (251933) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403042)

Most of Oracle's desktop tools were already Java before this purchase. I also use JEdit and Vuze regularly.

Well, one of them supports 3 programmers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403114)

at my company. A custom switch control application. We started it about 6 years ago and it's held up incredibly well in the face of changes and additions to the requirements.

Re:I'm glad (2, Informative)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402884)

Oracle is sueing for patent infringement, not trademark infringement.

Re:I'm glad (5, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402492)

The similarity of android's dev language with Java is only superficial

You mean, aside from the fact that they are exactly the same language and both provide a large number of the same classes in the java.* namespace, they are completely different?

Re:I'm glad (2, Insightful)

rxan (1424721) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403232)

Same language? C# and Javascript have nearly identical syntax. I think it's completely unreasonable to expect someone to invent a brand new syntax for every programming language.

Some of the same classes? Look at how many other languages have analogous classes in their libraries. It's irresponsible not to provide string utilities, for one.

Re:I'm glad (2, Insightful)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403250)

The similarity of android's dev language with Java is only superficial

You mean, aside from the fact that they are exactly the same language and both provide a large number of the same classes in the java.* namespace, they are completely different?

Damn, I'm going to do it -- I'm going to make a car analogy. I'm sorry in advance, because I *know* someone is going to helpfully correct it and take it far beyond the point I was trying to prove.

Let's say all cars had a single engine they used. They could manufacture this engine themselves, but it had to conform to the agreed-upon specs if they wanted to call it a "car engine". So Ford and Chevy and Toyota are all happily marketing cars with Genuine Car Engines; they have different trim and options, but they all use the same Car Engine under the hood.

Suddenly Hyundai comes along with its new line of cars which also uses a Genuine Car Engine. Except - as it turns out - their engine is custom built from the ground up. Its interfaces conform to the Car Engine spec, but internally it functions completely differently. If you dropped a Ford card body onto a Hyundai Car Engine, it wouldn't work at all correctly. The check engine light would play the tune of Old McDonald's and the turn signals would put the car into reverse.

Hyundai's Car Engine is superficially the same as the standard Car Engine, but it doesn't work the same way; nor does it do the same things.

Okay, I may have gotten carried away there. So let's try without the car analogy. The language constructs are the same. Even many classes are shared with the same functionality. However, you cannot execute compiled GoogleJava code on a standard JVM; and you cannot execute standard Java binaries on a Google Car Engine... erm, JVM. This is true even if the source code uses only classes that are shared in common across both platforms.

Re:I'm glad (1)

tomhath (637240) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402722)

Java isn't a bad language. Sun couldn't decide what it should be used for (embedded? servlet? applet? desktop? enterprise?). It eventually became the enterprise programming language of choice, but that makes it unsuitable for its original purpose as an embedded language, or pretty much anything else for that matter. Everything about Java is very, very heavy weight - platform, process, skill set, everything.

Re:I'm glad (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402762)

It wont actually die, it will just become an in-house language for oracle application development.

hippies (0)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402452)

Oracle CEO: Ha We'll show those hippies how it's done where's my check book.

Right, buy out those hippies and sun, then we go all their hippie goods then we can whip their hippie asses.

Now we can go sue those hippies for being hippies right!

What, you say them hippies open sourced that hippie shit............ shit........

Re:hippies (1)

chichilalescu (1647065) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402754)

hippies happen

Oracle/M$/Cisco can screw up a wet dream, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402570)

More often than all other companies in the world combined.

The whole cover your ass mentality of it management is disgusting, I really wish board of directors would start firing people for buying oracle/m$/cisco crap, the old saying nobody is ever got fired for buying oracle/m$/Cisco should end. These 3 do so much harm, trying to lock you in to their solution, sue people who produce better products than they do, write malicious code that prevents competitors products from working along side their offerings.

Lose-lose situation (2, Insightful)

slasho81 (455509) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402612)

This lawsuit boggles my mind. I'm sure the guys running Oracle are pretty smart. Can't they see that no matter the outcome of the lawsuit, they are losing big on reputation and client lock-in just by pursuing it? Am I missing some great strategic outcome Oracle is hoping for?

Re:Lose-lose situation (1)

jaylen (59655) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402834)

While the reputation of Oracle might mean something to yourself, myself or others on slashdot, the average joe on the streets of the world do not give a rats backend as to the "reputation" of Oracle.

All they care about is how well their phones work. Ergo, Oracle has very little to lose, since they already have inhouse lawyers anyway, and potentially something nice to gain; a nice chunk of leverage to be used in discussions with Google.

Re:Lose-lose situation (5, Insightful)

tmmagee (1475877) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402984)

Having a good reputation among the slashdot crowd may be more important than you think. Oracle's name is quickly becoming mud in the minds of of a lot of developers, and while in the short term that may mean little to them, it will probably bite them in the ass down the road. Developers may not make purchasing decisions for the kinds of large companies that purchase Oracle's products, but they make do make technical ones, and they also advise the people who make those purchasing decisions.

Re:Lose-lose situation (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403230)

Can Oracle's reputation get any worse?

Re:Lose-lose situation (4, Interesting)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403264)

Having a good reputation among the slashdot crowd may be more important than you think. Oracle's name is quickly becoming mud in the minds of of a lot of developers, and while in the short term that may mean little to them, it will probably bite them in the ass down the road.

Developers dont make decisions about the use of Oracle's money stream products [oracle.com] , of which Java is not among them.

Its the IT guys that make those decisions, and they pick Oracle because Oracles solutions are some of the best in the business. Oracle's revenue stream is in the same league as Google, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Cisco, etc.. not a household name like some of them, but their revenue stream is testimonial to the quality of their products and the loyalty of those who do make purchasing decisions relevant to Oracle.

Oracle did not buy Sun for Java. Java was just a bonus. Sun was a direct competitor with some unique IP in the storage solutions space that Oracle was and will continue to be the #1 player in. You see Sun Server prominent on that products/services page, while Java is relegated to only footnote status in the "Related Technologies" section.

Java is a fine language for what its primarily used for, and Oracle certainly uses a lot of Java code, but they barely marketing Java itself. They couldn't give a rats ass as to what developers feel about Java. They sell solutions, not platforms.

Re:Lose-lose situation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403402)

No. Its way less important than you think. This will not hurt Oracle one little bit.

Re:Lose-lose situation (2, Interesting)

swillden (191260) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403246)

While the reputation of Oracle might mean something to yourself, myself or others on slashdot, the average joe on the streets of the world do not give a rats backend as to the "reputation" of Oracle.

All they care about is how well their phones work. Ergo, Oracle has very little to lose, since they already have inhouse lawyers anyway, and potentially something nice to gain; a nice chunk of leverage to be used in discussions with Google.

It's not the risk of pissing of slashdotters that Oracle should be concerned about. It's the possibility of pissing off other major players in the enterprise Java space. Should Google decide to move forward with going their own way with a new Java-like language, that's of moderate concern to Oracle. Should folks like IBM decide to collaborate with Google on that, and should some of the major open source projects that are Java-heavy (e.g. Apache) decide to move as well, Oracle may find itself holding rights in a language that no one else cares about.

All of that assumes that Google et al can work around or invalidate the patents Oracle holds. I'll bet that's not too hard, though. There's very little in Java that's actually novel, so I suspect that it wouldn't be hard to find prior art to invalidate Oracle's patents. Also, if IBM pitches in and brings its patent arsenal into play, Oracle could be forced into giving up its patent claims even without Google having to go to the effort of invalidating them.

Yes, you're missing something (1)

Lysol (11150) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403412)

For Slashdot readers this seems to be about Java the language (as created by Sun), Oracle & Google the companies, and Android the 'upstart'. However to Oracle customers (for which there are tons), none of this means anything because they are completely indemnified in anything relating to Java. They (Oracle clients and developers) are also neck deep in Java for many big Oracle products, so why should they care much about Google's Java-like language for a phone? Oracle is big enterprise and its users/developers are behind ERP, sales, db & inventory systems, etc - huge enterprise (not consumer so much) investments. I don't think most people using Oracle products are gonna notice anything unusual going on because this affects Android only - this does not affect Google server products, although if Oracle wins, then what's Google to do with all that Java server code? Anyway, think the Sun/M$ Java shenans that went on a decade ago. I'm sure Oracle is viewing this in a similar way.

Google has the most to loose, obviously. They will either have to obey and license the patents they are infringing on (and possibly change big portions of their code to be compliant) or switch out to a new language.

Well, if Josh Bloch said it... (1)

wzzzzrd (886091) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402626)

Well, if Josh Bloch said it, then it must be true.

No, seriously. Bloch is one of the few smart public figures in Software Development who, like everyone else, sticks to his agenda, but, unlike everyone else, is very open about his agenda. Besides, he's one of the most entertaining public speakers: Example [youtube.com] . If you haven't already watched it, you should.

Now, since I did as you told me, gimme teh darn 500$, please.

But its already been done! (1)

Old-Claimjumper (463905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33402704)

The whole point of Microsoft developing .net was Microsoft trying to embrace-extend Java with Microsoft-only bits and Sun suing Microsoft over use of the name
"Java". Microsoft took their marbles and went off to play in their own yard creating .net.

The only difference here is that Sun sued over calling something "Java" that wasn't exactly Java. Oracle is doing something a bit deeper in that they are saying that Google can't fork the language even if they call it something different.

But Java has already been forked into "real-java" vs ".net/mono/etc". If this suit were being done in some dream world where a still-existing Sun were suing Microsoft over the Java-like structure of .net, then I think the perception would be quite different than Oracle vs Google. the real question here is how much control software patents give over a language.

Re:But its already been done! (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403134)

Yeah, you try suing a company with as large of a patent portfolio as Microsoft over a language. See how well that goes. Google on the other hand, has much less of a history in Programming languages. So any lawsuit is less likely to end up biting them back.

Re:But its already been done! (2, Informative)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33403276)

The only difference here is that Sun sued over calling something "Java" that wasn't exactly Java. Oracle is doing something a bit deeper in that they are saying that Google can't fork the language even if they call it something different.

I think I've missed something - last I saw, Google isn't calling it something different? If they were, I can't see how this would be a problem. But when I look at the Android Fundamentals [android.com] page, this is the first thing I see (emphasis added):

Android applications are written in the Java programming language. The compiled Java code — along with any data and resource files required by the application — is bundled by the aapt tool into an Android package, an archive file marked by an .apk suffix. T

So where do you see that they're not calling it Java?

Python (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33402742)

lol, time to switch to Python?

Google backing out of OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403336)

How cute.

Well if oracle is trying to kill java... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33403420)

I don't think I could have dreamed of a better way to marginalize Java than to have Oracle sue Google.

Nobody cares about the slight differences between dalvak and standard bytecode and so the impression I've noticed is some think Google was sued for using Java which is a bigger problem for Java than Oracle realizes.

As we've seen with Apples use of objective-c language selection is not automatically coupled with increase of developer productivity. Great APIs, graphics engines, data engines..etc can exist in any reasonable platform including languages like c* that don't need to be garbage collected and don't assume the developer is too stupid for pointer arithmetic.

You don't need a virtual machine to enforce sandboxing, access constraints and security. All of the infustructure for doing it already exists in linux. The tools just suck and have to be more reachable to people with little time or patience to deal with shit thats more complex than it needs to be to get their fricking jobs done. (See also Oracles RMAN)

I would like to see a single language and API that can be used across all major mobile platforms as unecessary fragmentation only hurts the consumer. I don't much care *what* it is... it just needs to exist. Mono/C# so be it. C++, Java... the industry just needs to fricking pick one language that works on all mobile platforms.

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