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Shuttleworth Answers Ubuntu Linux's Critics

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the what's-in-a-name dept.

Ubuntu 382

climenole writes "Technomancer wrote: 'Mark Shuttleworth, Ubuntu Linux's founder, maintains that he and Ubuntu are doing right by the Linux community and the even larger open-source community. In recent weeks, Ubuntu has been criticized for not giving Linux enough support. Specifically, the complains have been that Canonical, the company behind Ubuntu, doesn't do enough for producing Linux source code.'"

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382 comments

Proper link (5, Informative)

yelvington (8169) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581488)

The IT world link takes you to an interstitial ad, followed by a godawful mishmash of crap.

Here's a link to the original post: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/517 [markshuttleworth.com]

Re:Proper link (5, Insightful)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581586)

I'm a regular Ubuntu user. I use it on 13 machines in my shop and personal life. Having it done and well integrated with easily obtainable extras makes my life much easier. From less powerful to my most powerful this product just seems to work. So, to that end I do thank Mark Shuttleworth for his efforts and I hope he realizes that he has made other's lives better.

Not everyone contributes back to society or to the world at large in equal measure. Canonical does some things that others don't and others do what Canonical doesn't. To use code contributions to the kernel and to Gnome as a measuring stick just doesn't seem right. Let's be smart and look at the overall effect this has on the world.

Here's to you guys.

Re:Proper link (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581676)

Good point. We should judge them on their use of brown. I think they're first place, ahead of the microsoft zune.

Re:Proper link (5, Insightful)

geekmansworld (950281) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581848)

So we can see the thought process here:

Developing Linux Kernel = Valuable

Getting Linux into users hands with convenient, easy-to-use installers, providing support, etc. = Not Valuable

To borrow one of Shuttleworth's analogies, a brain can't function without a body to house it.

Re:Proper link (0, Offtopic)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582074)

There's only one linux kernel. At the time, there were no free kernels -- HURD was (and is) vaporware and BSD was mired in legal confusion. Ubuntu is yet another distro. been there, done that.

Consider: You have 1 car and it gets stolen vs you have 10 cars and 1 gets stolen.

Re:Proper link (5, Insightful)

Flamekebab (873945) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582166)

I'm sure someone else will have said it, but I reckon this is one of those cases of "it can't be measured, therefore it must have no value". Ubuntu has done amazing work getting Linux more visible and better established, that alone is worth a significant amount.

Re:Proper link (0, Troll)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581968)

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but my experience with Ubuntu has been a polar opposite. I can't boot into the Live CD on either my desktop or laptop, and about the only way I can get things to work seamlessly is to run it in a VM.

To put that in perspective, I have OSX running natively on my desktop PC with 0 KPs since 10.6, with all components working except a PCIe NIC (which also doesn't show up in Ubuntu). Fortunately my onboard NIC shows up just fine in OSX, but again, not in Ubuntu, where I had to use a USB wireless NIC just to get connectivity to download my other NIC drivers. Even then, getting even binary video drivers working properly in Ubuntu is a chore, let alone the roll-your-own OSS variants. Which is no worse than other Linux distros, of course, but certainly no better.

In my experience, Ubuntu is an overrated, overblown Debian fork that has added zero value, and possibly even removed value if the reports of demoralized Debian developers are true. I don't mind getting down and dirty with my OS, but if I really want to do that, then Ubuntu is not the best choice. On the other hand, if I want to keep things at arms-length (just to run a Linux-only app here and there for network administration) then Ubuntu is still not the best choice -- BT4 fits that bill nicely.

I am only one or two data points, true, but searching for various cryptic error messages in Ubuntu App Center leads me to believe that I am far from alone.

Re:Proper link (2, Interesting)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581978)

> To put that in perspective, I have OSX running natively on my desktop PC with 0 KPs since 10.6, with all components working except a PCIe NIC

That's interesting since I've had Ubuntu happily running on 2 generations of genuine (mini) Macs.

Real Mac hardware seems to like Ubuntu better then your Hackintosh. That's a bit odd considering the fact that you wouldn't expect MacOS to be able to deal with much of anything that deviates from a genuine Mac.

Re:Proper link (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582086)

Or maybe you just suck at computers and should move on to other pursuits?

Re:Proper link (2, Interesting)

g4b (956118) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582144)

Well, so to sum up:

* You tried the tailored Operating System to your Hardware.
* You tried Ubuntu
* Ubuntu was worse, than the tailored Operating System to your Hardware.

If your Hardware has errors, or some specific quirks, which may not be detected by an overblown Debian fork (which however wasn't in the summary of tried Operating Systems - only the tailored Operating System to your Hardware was) you blame Ubuntu for not being userfriendly, as response to a post describing he was glad, that Ubuntu tried to fill small gaps for the end user experience, (I am speaking for those who still remember kernel compiling because of unsupported binary drivers, if there was something more interesting to do), and tried to satisfy the need for especially those people, who simply want to install linux, without really wanting to get deeper into the system - at least not every time. You blame Ubuntu for something, which it actually does. It tries to be easily installable by people, who do not want to learn kernel compiling and manual patching or for those who want to learn it, but not do it every time and for every machine they encounter - with mostly typical driver problems caused by licensing issues.

You can take your Mac as an opportunity to learn how Linux works, detect the errors and file bug reports to distributions, you think this problem maybe should concern. Feel lucky. You can learn a lot from this experience. You might even be the one who fixes it.

Your distro is just as strong, as the people supporting it. Hating canonical for just being successful and not delivering solutions to everybodies needs magically, is not what free software or open source is about.

For my taste, they could invest a little bit more in the areas, they already do, and don't try to push too much on the server market. And support debian financially and by playing after their project principles. I am still glad about Ubuntu existing and happy user on everyday machines. As I am about other distros, which are used by various other machines I work with - where Ubuntu has nothing to seek.

Re:Proper link (1, Interesting)

scdeimos (632778) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582192)

From less powerful to my most powerful this product just seems to work.

Granted, Ubuntu works pretty well with modern hardware. I've been surprised at how well it works with pluggable devices like printers, controllers and iThingies.

Except when doesn't.

After SMB mount found itself deprecated you wouldn't believe the pain I had to go through to get CIFS mount to work properly with a remote SMB share whose file system contained folders and files with Asian characters in their names. And it still doesn't create folders and files with the correct ugos - they're visible on all the Ubuntu systems, but none of the Windows computers until I specifically chmod them.

A recent /. story (which I can't find to link at the moment) mentioned that Google reported Ubuntu to be the highest-ranking Linux distribution involved in search terms. In my experience that's probably because people are having the most difficulty with it in getting things working. There's usually several ways to do something in Ubuntu, and each way is implemented slightly differently to every other distribution.

Re:Proper link (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582208)

Well... same here in the case of Hardy. And I thought sticking to an LTS release would be safe enough but moving to Lucid presented a few problems. On my laptop (Dell D630), sound just stopped working out of the blue one day and I could not fix it for the life of me. I am back on Hardy now.

But still ... I do appreciate their work and I think Ubuntu is a fine distro. My hope is that future LTS releases will look more like Hardy though.

Re:Proper link (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582378)

What more should Ubuntu give back when it's already done a ton for Linux by --> Making People Interested in Linux

I've stayed away from Linux for a long time and Ubuntu was the one I was willing to jump at. And I use it in my company now too. Maybe it's this or maybe it's that. Go have your Linux fan-wars somewhere else. Ubuntu is, if nothing else, a perfect stepping stone to getting people use to Linux so they can move onto other distros.

Re:Proper link (4, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581684)

I like this article even better: http://blogs.computerworld.com/16651/ubuntu_vs_red_hat_who_really_contributes_the_most_to_linux [computerworld.com]

To summarize:

Atari vs. Commodore!
ST vs. Amiga!
Nintendo vs. Sega!
Mac vs. PC!
PS3 vs. Xbox 360!
Ubuntu vs. Debian!

All stupid and silly arguments that serve no purpose. Especially when Debian and Ubuntu are both part of the same family. (Of course that didn't stop Catholics and protestants from fighting.)
.

Re:Proper link (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581988)

All stupid and silly arguments that serve no purpose. Especially when Debian and Ubuntu are both part of the same family. (Of course that doesn't stop Catholics and protestants from fighting.)

FTFY

Ubuntu is a distro (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581496)

Ubuntu is not Linux - it is a distro BASED on Linux.

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581538)

I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/LInux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called “Linux”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called “Linux” distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (1)

EvanED (569694) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581584)

Personally, I'd say that "Linux" is probably closer to "Gnome/Linux" than "GNU/Linux" for a large and growing proportion of Linux users, but that's just me.

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581636)

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/GNU+Network+Object+Model+Environment

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (2)

EvanED (569694) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581656)

Okay, Gnome is part of the GNU project, I'll admit forgetting about that when I posted that comment. Never mind.

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (1)

transwarp (900569) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582238)

Don't forget Xorg. GNU/Xorg/Linux? GNU/KDE/Xorg/Linux? I think that catches pretty much everything outside of /opt. It's kind of unwieldy to say, though.
(Does that also imply we should say KDE/Xorg/FreeBSD or GNU/Xorg/FreeBSD, etc.? Even better, what about people running GNOME on Mac OS or KDE on Windows? :) )

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581854)

Big hand for the RMS wannabe, everybody! Thanks for dropping by with yet another tedious rehash of how the FSF wants people to refer to Linux. Have you considered maybe getting a life?

Re:Ubuntu is a distro (4, Insightful)

Sal Zeta (929250) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581896)

Well, neither "A Glass of Coke" is actually a recipient made of a sugar-flavoured drink. It's a common grammatical rule called Metonymy [wikipedia.org], and it's commonly used to exemplify the language to avoid excessive verbosity.

The same could be said about the idea of prepending GNU to Linux, giving to the name the dubious function of being considered somewhat an homage or representation of the intentions of the author. Personally I'm not offended if my friends just call me "Sal" without citing everytime my father's and my grandfather's name like some aristocrat used to think. It would just make every conversation tiring, ad would give an idea of self-importance more annoying than anything else to my speaker.

Ubuntu users have more problems (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581500)

FTFA:

I might add, which Shuttleworth didn't spell out, that if you need help to do anything with Linux, you're more likely to find online help on how to do it on Ubuntu than openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, or any other Linux. Ubuntu's popularity combined with that attitude of helping everyday users get the most from Linux has made it the go-to Linux for users who want and need a helping hand.

Ubuntu users haveStats say that more problems than all the other main distros combined [alphagfx.com], so I'm not buying it.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (4, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581526)

Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that Ubuntu also has more users than those other distros combined?

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (4, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581612)

Further, it probably has the least number of technical users because it's probably the most popular "plug-and-play" (or close to it) distro there is. Thus, there may be fewer people who can trouble-shoot their own problems.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582262)

All that means is that ubuntu is mis-marketed - a serious mistake, because then all linux distros get tarred with the same brush

Funny how distros like opensuse, in comparison, have almost no complaints. Shuttleworth talks about "bringing linux to the masses" - the stats show that the number of people ubuntu turns off from all linux distros is a serious problem. The most telling is that, if current trends continue, ubuntu will have more complaints than Windows in 2 years.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (0, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582300)

No, because it doesn't. Stop spreading lies.

More people might "try" ubuntu, but then they dump it and go back to Windows. Or they complain to someone like me who then wipes the crapware from their machine and installs a real distro.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581532)

I can't follow the link here but do you mean that there are more bugs reports in ubuntu than other distros? I would argue that the bug database is the most important feature of the ubuntu distro. I have raised bugs there and seen them propagated to the originating projects.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (-1, Flamebait)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582056)

No- there are more searches for "ubuntu is crap", "ubuntu is shit", "ubuntu messed up" and "ubuntu fucked" than all the others combined - and considering that it's not even 1% of windows market share, it's even way over-represented there.

This reflects user dissatisfaction with ubuntu being much higher than the others.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (5, Insightful)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581620)

heh I applied for a membership on the DSL fourms 4 years ago just to post a question, and have still not been approved I spent nearly an hour today on slackware trying to see what options I had with a no cd no usb boot system, finally on some 3rd party blog I found a 5 page walk though that read like Russian stereo instructions so yea they may seem to have more problems, but its honestly hard to get any other distro's to even setup a localized place to ask questions, I love it on my home machines, hm how do I do that, Oh I know... google XYZ on ubuntu and there is a half dozen threads all pointing me in the right direction and that is a good thing, no matter how much the hardcore nurds want to spin it

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (2, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582108)

This doesn't change the fact that WAY more people complain about ubuntu f$cking their machine than everyone else combined. For a distro that was supposed to get people "from here to there", it's not doing the job.

This is a combination of poor targeting to your market, and poor communications of what the end user is to expect "as good as windows" (which is a lie. linux is better than windows, but it is not a drop-in replacement, and anyone who says otherwise is a troll).

Apple doesn't market OSX as "as good as Windows". They're not stupid. The real advantages of linux are not price or as a windows replacement, and until the people who pimp ubuntu get a clue and realize that this is NOT the way to push linux, you're going to see 100x more complaints about ubuntu than about other distros.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1)

tkiesel (891354) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582426)

This doesn't change the fact that WAY more people complain about ubuntu f$cking their machine than everyone else combined.

The question is, is it "WAY more people" proportional to how many people actually use the different distros? Proportions are everything. Bonds, McGwire (and a few others) may have a higher single-season home run record than Babe Ruth, but Ruth hit more home runs that season than the average team did that same season. Proportionally, Bonds and McGwire are pushovers.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581632)

That would be untrue. Do we look at overall problems or just those involved in a Linux distro. Who would fall as worst in this category then?

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (5, Interesting)

c0d3g33k (102699) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581722)

I've been paying attention for a long time. I've done the distro hopping dance for years, and I've been advocating Linux all the while. In 15 years of Linux use, for me personally, Ubuntu comes second only to OpenSUSE as far as getting out of my way and letting me get my work done. Ubuntu is the clear favorite among family and friends whom I have foisted Linux upon over the years. I've gotten far fewer "tech guy support" calls than any other distro, spent less time dealing with computer issues over the phone and I have definitely gotten fewer complaints. Therefore, I *am* inclined to believe the stats. They are doing something right, as much as it pains some to admit.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1)

oldspewey (1303305) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582310)

I'll second that recommendation for OpenSUSE. In my experience, "it just works" on more hardware than Ubuntu, and YaST is a great admin tool.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (1)

The Infamous Grimace (525297) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582416)

My Vaio laptop has 3 OSes - Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, and a fsck'd OS X install. I regularly switch between Ubuntu and OpenSUSE - KDE 4 is still a bit wonky for me, but I've followed it and I'm hopeful. Ubuntu gives me grief with regards to my wireless, but other than that I like it, and would recommend it on the desktop.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (3, Insightful)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581730)

Blech, there's no worse "statistic" than counting the number of Google results for various terms.

If you compare "bible" with "quran", you can see that there are about 10x the results for "bible". What does that indicate, are there 10x more Christians, or readers of the bible? You can also see that Malawi, Swaziland, Ghana, and Zimbabwe have the highest regional interest for "bible", so what can you conclude about that? Are those the most "Christian" nations? The US isn't even in the top 10, in fact all 10 are African nations. I see that Indonesia is ranked #8 for regional interest in "quran", can we conclude that Indonesia is the 8th most "Islamic" nation?

If you went on only those numbers, you would conclude that followers of the bible greatly outnumber followers of the quran. The actual difference is about 2x, not 10x. You would also conclude that Pakistan, Gambia, and Somalia are the worlds largest Islamic countries, but the largest (by population) is Indonesia.

Google "stats" are pretty useless.

Re:Ubuntu users have more problems (-1, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582242)

And yet the original article that I link to tried to imply that Ubuntu was more popular based on the same stupid methodology. The ubuntu fanbois need to realize that our concerns:
  1. the mis-presenting of linux as "as good as windows" instead of "better but different"
  2. the lack of upstream code contributions
  3. the flood of "linux sux" from people who used ubuntu and went back to windows (as a consequence of #1 above)

... they all seriously need to be addressed. Ubuntu is not linux, just a distro, and nowhere near the best for every use (and certainly not up to the quality of opensuse).

Ubuntu is awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582080)

Is it possible for something to be crap, shit, messed up and awesome [google.com] all at the same time?

Kernel code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581552)

I'd rather the window managers worked.

Re:Kernel code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581870)

They do, so that's one less thing you need to worry about.

Suse is for business, Ubuntu is for Linux (0, Flamebait)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581558)

From my experience, the distro that gives less back to the community is Suse.

I have Suse systems at work and there's always some catch, it never works seamlessly unless you go to a full (paid) Suse solution.

Ubuntu, OTOH, is nearly transparent, you never feel like you are being obstructed by it. In the worst case, if everything else fails all you need to do is to fall back on some Debian solution that will almost always work in Ubuntu.

Re:Suse is for business, Ubuntu is for Linux (3, Interesting)

Jorl17 (1716772) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581600)

I have Ubuntu installed on 8 machines and agree. It solves all my problems and...whenever I mess it up, which I sometimes do, the huge community or the ease of use helps me repair it. I once even deleted the entire MBR + parts of the partition table and then managed to restore it before I rebooted.

Re:Suse is for business, Ubuntu is for Linux (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581750)

Odd. Myself and a couple of my colleagues recently got laptops preinstalled with SLED at work. The experience was generally less positive than with other (free) distros. The SLED repos are only installed after you register with Novell, and trying to get any sort of multimedia setup going on it was a nightmare. OTOH we have openSUSE on several desktop machines, works like a charm.

I guess the only advantage of SLED would be that it plays nicer with Microsoft solutions, but we don't use those too much at work.

Re:Suse is for business, Ubuntu is for Linux (2, Informative)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582386)

From my experience, the distro that gives less back to the community is Suse.

Novell is one of the biggest corporate contributors (of actual code) to open-soruce projects like GNOME and the Linux kernel. They are behind probably only behind Red Hat in total contributions.

Mark should answer the following question: (1, Funny)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581562)

Is it his opinion that the [default] desktop environment that Ubuntu provides is better for the Linux desktop ecosystem than all other environments at the moment?

Having tried the few options available, I hereby submit that there is an environment that in my opinion, is better for desktop Linux in functionality and license as compared to the default. I leave names out on purpose.

Re:Mark should answer the following question: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581628)

ohhh i get it, gnome definitely does suck.

Crowd sourcing (5, Interesting)

WarJolt (990309) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581566)

Ubuntu has encouraged me to submit bugs and even maintain a ppa for packages I couldn't find on ubuntu. Ubuntu has encouraged me to contribute because the community is active and friendly. Redhat never did that for me.

Thanks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581568)

I thank you Mark for all your great work. We all have our short comings and people will never miss an opportunity to point them out.

If you wanted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581582)

...the GPL to inflict moral responsibility and karmic debt upon the user to require them to contribute tithes to the holy priests of "free" (which is to say highly encumbered) software, then ya should have written that into the license.

I'm going to have to go with boo-effing-hoo on this one.

G.

Re:If you wanted... (1)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581746)

You only have to contribute back if you use someone's code, modify it, and distribute it.

If you don't wish to then don't use it.

Gosh, that seems to have blown your whole argument out of the water?

Re:If you wanted... (1)

angus77 (1520151) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581922)

You only have to contribute back if you use someone's code, modify it, and distribute it.

If you don't wish to then don't use it.

Gosh, that seems to have blown your whole argument out of the water?

No, actually, he said (twice in fact!) that Ubuntu encouraged him to contribute. Not forced or guilted.

As in: the Ubuntu community made him want to contribute to that community, resulting in---more contributions from the community!!! That's his argument, which is pretty clear if you read rather than skim.

Critics are MORONS (5, Insightful)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581678)

A lot of Ubuntu's critics say what they say because they think they are "too good" for it since it comes with training wheels on. Ubuntu, being a distro, has no obligation to write source code -- that is done by thousands of programmers elsewhere, and they are doing a damn fine job. A distro is meant to package the work of those programmers in a way that people can use it without needing a CS degree, and Ubuntu is getting that right imo.

So, the critics need to stfu and stick with their obscure distros.

This is the "cool people" phenomenon, like we see in music. These people will go round telling everyone how much they like X niche band as long as nobody knows about it, but if/when that band becomes popular, they'll start saying "Oh, I don't like that any more!". Same here, except with niche software.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581712)

I love it on the desktop and use it on all my desktops, laptops and even HTPC, but ubuntu server needs some work. The fact that it comes with a splash screen boot by default is a clear indicator that Canonical does not spend enough time thinking about the server version.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581792)

The thing is, Ubuntu server isn't trying to necessarily capture the marketshare of "serious" servers because those are already well-entrenched with contracts but rather competing with offerings like Windows Home Server.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581826)

Yeah, but they could. I would love to have support contracts on something less out of date then RHEL and I swore off SuSe long ago.

If they would just put out a windows AMD64 bit kvm driver, I would buy a half a dozen support contracts that day. Instead I am stuck with RHEL5 running a kernel older than dirt.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582394)

If they would just put out a windows AMD64 bit kvm driver, I would buy a half a dozen support contracts that day. Instead I am stuck with RHEL5 running a kernel older than dirt.

RHEL5 kernel is hardly old. It has thousands of patches.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582322)

It doesn't matter if it is "trying to capture marketshare" or not. Some design decisions are just boneheaded for the use case in question. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're trying to take over the world.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582422)

The thing is, Ubuntu server isn't trying to necessarily capture the marketshare of "serious" servers because those are already well-entrenched with contracts but rather competing with offerings like Windows Home Server.

Nuh uh. Ubuntu Server is certainly marketed towards enterprises, and not just very small ones. Canonical advertises its support for virtualization, cloud computing, and integration with enterprise authentication systems.
Let's look at the Ubuntu Server [ubuntu.com] web page:

  • "Ubuntu Server mixes effortlessly with Ubuntu, Windows or Mac OS environments. All clients can share authentication, swap files and access services, while Open LDAP, Likewise-Open and PAM authentication come as standard."

    Do home users care about LDAP or PAM?

  • Virtualise your servers with Ubuntu Server and KVM. Use a secure, lean version of Ubuntu as a guest operating system for your application and create virtual machine images in minutes. KVM, Xen, VMWare and LXC are all supported.

    Do home users create applications using Ubuntu as a base to run on virtualized environments? Do home users runs servers with virtualization?

  • Build flexible computing environments in your own infrastructure with Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud (UEC) or deploy to Amazon EC2 using Ubuntu Server Edition images.

    Do home users create their own Enterprise Cloud or deploy applications to expensive commercial hosting systems?

Re:Critics are MORONS (2, Insightful)

baka_toroi (1194359) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581808)

Could you tell me what "training wheels" means in this context? Having a streamlined distro? Fixing bugs? I know you haven't said that, but it sounds so utterly retarded that I'm having a hard time just trying to understand the concept.

Re:Critics are MORONS (4, Insightful)

Pharmboy (216950) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581886)

My guess is that "training wheels" means using a GUI and a mouse click to do configuration, instead of vi and editing the config file directly, then sending a SIGHUP signal to the process directly.

Personally, I lean toward the manual editing (using nano/pico, not vi) but I mainly use Linux on servers with no GUI. For individual use, it would seem a GUI would make more sense, assuming your goal is to make it easier for more people to actually use the software.

Re:Critics are MORONS (1)

Urza9814 (883915) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582028)

A lot of Ubuntu's critics say what they say because they think they are "too good" for it since it comes with training wheels on.

I don't hate it because it has training wheels. I hate it because it has some of the worst hardware support I've seen out of any Linux distro that I've tried. I've seen way too many people try Ubuntu, have some problem with poorly supported hardware (or the installer entirely refusing to run), and go 'wow, Linux sucks.' and give up. That is why I always recommend Mandriva. I have yet to find any hardware it won't run on. Even the weird Dell branded broadcom wifi chips usually work without any extra effort. The last time I tried one of those on Ubuntu it took _days_ to get it functioning. Trying different drivers, trying ndiswrapper, trying compiling ndiswrapper from source, wiping the hard disk and trying again...

Hell, I can get an Arch system up and running on my laptop in less time than it usually takes me to do (and fix) a fresh Ubuntu install. Actually, if I was doing the install for someone else, right now I would probably pick Arch. It's too rough for non-technical users to get installed, but once it's set up it is by far the cleanest, simplest, and most stable distro I've ever had the pleasure of using. After over 6 years using Linux, Arch is the distro that finally got me to entirely erase my Windows partition.

Re:Critics are MORONS (2, Interesting)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582408)

So, the critics need to stfu and stick with their obscure distros.

Red Hat are the main critics as far as I know, and they're not obscure or trying to look "cool". Their criticism is that they pay a lot of money to develop Linux's core software while Canonical doesn't pay nearly so much, which is true.

On the other hand you're right that Canonical have no obligation to do so, and you can make the case that Canonical are much less profitable and don't have the sorts of clients which need to kind of support provided by having programmers which work on Linuxes core software.

It's a gray area and both sides have a point. Personally I hope that Canonical becomes more successful and starts to find it useful to their business to work on Linux to a larger extent, so that no-one has to try and guilt them into doing so (which won't work if it doesn't make business sense).
I also hope Red Hat take a page from Canonical's book and make a friendlier/cleaner distribution for non-enterprise installations. (Yes I know about Fedora, but clearly Ubuntu has a nicer mix in many ways.)

I love ubuntu except... (0)

JustNiz (692889) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581718)

I love Ubuntu, and more with every release except... What the hell is the deal with moving the window buttons to the left?

Thank goodness its not hard to move them back otherwise Ubuntu would have made itself "not an option" for me.

Re:I love ubuntu except... (1)

Is0m0rph (819726) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581794)

Yeah I don't get this move either. Sure a line of code or theme change can move them back to the right easily but I wonder who thought it would be a good default in the first place. I love the current release though the Windows installer worked great and everything worked on my laptop after the install without my help. I only had Win XP on it previously.

Re:I love ubuntu except... (2, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581864)

They want to put other stuff on the right side. I just wish we could kill the whole title bar idea. It serves no purpose other than to waste space. Just put the buttons right on the same bar that says File Edit View in 90% of apps.

Re:I love ubuntu except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582040)

That would be ok except the title bar is handled by the window manager and the menu bar by gtk, qt or whatnot.

Re:I love ubuntu except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581940)

On my laptop (and _only_ on my laptop) having the gadgets on the left actually works well with the default top menu. Trackpads just aren't mice. Grouping these function in the same area helps with that.

This is probably where the idea for the change came from. I completely agree that pushing it on desktop users comes off as bizarre and capricious. It's particularly annoying for people who prefer a simplified 'win95' single bottom toolbar, so they can toss the mouse into the upper right corner to close windows. It's like finding your shoes have been tied together. They should have been more careful about introducing a change like that.

Re:I love ubuntu except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581934)

No Macs for you either then.

Windows 3.1 had them on both sides.

A solid distro (5, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581724)

Ubuntu is without a doubt the best distro for most users. Yeah, I know I could have more customization with Debian, yeah, I know I could be faster if I ran Gentoo, yeah, I know I could be more on the bleeding edge if I used Fedora, but when it comes down to it, Ubuntu is the best distro for most people. I -like- the fact there is a forum where I can post a question and it is answered in about 15 minutes, I like the fact I can do 99.999% of the things I need to do without using the CLI, and I like the fact that I have a lot of software in the repository.

And the best part is there isn't really any sacrifice. Is there anything that I can't do with Ubuntu that I can do with Debian? Just because I don't have to use a CLI for everything doesn't mean I can't if I want, etc.

Yeah, so Ubuntu doesn't have the nerd "cred" that I'd be getting if I ran Gentoo, but I have a usable system that is nearly infinitely customizable without having to sacrifice usability.

Re:A solid distro (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581902)

I would argue that Ubuntu is great for everyone who likes the default.

Re:A solid distro (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581904)

anyone else remember when debian == nerd cred and gentoo == 1337 kiddies?

Re:A solid distro (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33581942)

You hate the command line? That's just fine, but I really wonder why are you running a *nix? Ubuntu will NEVER be a better Windows than Windows. I hope it's not for the 'nerd cred' or sticking it to the man.

Re:A solid distro (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581970)

I don't "hate" using the CLI, I just prefer using a GUI for most things. CLIs are good for some things, but editing configuration files using vi is simply pointless when it should just be an option in the program. Same thing with things like disk checking and partition editing.

Re:A solid distro (2, Insightful)

cynyr (703126) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582332)

fdisk is much much faster than a gui could ever be. Same for most of the command line.

remove "$artist - $album - " from the front of 300 mp3s using the gui sometime... it's a simple loop in bash...


cd /Music_Dir/
for file in $(find . -type f -print); do name=${file##*/}
        name=${name##-*}
        mv $file "${file%/*}/${name}
done

I'm not sure the above is space safe, but the use of -print0 and a bit more should fix that right up.

Re:A solid distro (2, Informative)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582336)

> Ubuntu will NEVER be a better Windows than Windows.

It already is. Linux in general has been that for awhile.

The real main problem is 3rd party vendor support.

Although most of that success is due to WORK DONE UPSTREAM and isn't really anything that Ubuntu can claim credit for.

Re:A solid distro (1)

marky_boi (1427845) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581994)

Ubuntu is without a doubt the best distro for most users. Yeah, I know I could have more customization with Debian, yeah, I know I could be faster if I ran Gentoo, yeah, I know I could be more on the bleeding edge if I used Fedora, but when it comes down to it, Ubuntu is the best distro for most people

correct! so far I have converted 6 other ppl who would normally have not even considered it. to further top that off, when ppl come to my house and need to use a PC they just say "this looks different to my PC" I dont say a word and THEY USE IT ANYWAY without any coaching...... Ubuntu = usability = ubiquity(eventually) I care not for Geek cred, just wanna get the job done and Ubuntu ticks the boxes

Re:A solid distro (1)

cynyr (703126) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582296)

Is there anything that I can't do with Ubuntu that I can't do with Debian?

Yes, ARM platforms, embedded devices, use a vanilla kernel.

... I have a usable system that is nearly infinitely customizable without having to sacrifice usability.

Install Transmission on ubuntu without installing QT4 and half of KDE.

Re:A solid distro (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33582414)

yeah, I know I could be faster if I ran Gentoo

In your imagination mostly. The Gentoo tards who proclaim all those speed benefits pretty much universally use a long string of CFLAGS that are mostly redundant and in many cases can cause slowdowns and the software to work improperly. You're getting about as much extra speed in running Gentoo as you get a HP boost by putting a fart pipe muffler and some Type R stickers on your ricer.

Isn't Ubuntu doing enough good already? (5, Insightful)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581866)

Ubuntu is a very popular Linux distro, which I can only assume is pulling quite a bit of interest to Linux. A fraction of these new Linux users are also logically speaking developers. And these would then be potential Linux contributors.

I have a hard time seeing how spending a lot of effort into making the most popular desktop Linux distro on the market could be a bad thing even when going as specific as Linux contributions. Developers are just a subset of users! Any successful distro is a good distro for Linux, and heck, it's not even important to be successful. That's kind of what this whole open OS is about. Play around and have fun. If you're doing well too, well, that's a nice bonus for Linux!

And Ubuntu is among those that are doing well.

Don't bite the hand that gives you free stuff (2, Insightful)

ksandom (718283) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581908)

I've done a little back reading on this now to see what it's all about. And all I can say is for goodness sake, don't bite the hand that gives you free stuff. Personally, I usually choose gentoo or fedora. But I still recognise the value of Ubuntu.

I'm a Redhat/CentOS/Fedora user (4, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | more than 3 years ago | (#33581974)

I am an old school user from the beginning with Slackware and such. I settled on Redhat because it felt the best to me. This was before Ubuntu came out and Debian was on the map but no competition yet for Redhat. (I'm sure that will be a matter of opinion for many though.) In spite of all the great things about Ubuntu, I'm stuck with Redhat because I simply know it too well. It is largely quite predictable in the way they do things and in their philosophies. That they are active contributors to the source and supporting software is nice but not the reason I continue using and supporting Redhat.

I was dismissive of Ubuntu at first. One of the biggest turn-offs to me was the fact that nearly everyone refuses to say the name properly. (Damnit! The U makes the same sound each time! Ooo-boon-too! Why is it so frikkin hard?!) To me, that aspect alone makes me think idiots will use it. (I know I am WRONG as hell about that, but at some level, I tend to tie intelligence with linguistic skill) On top of that, I don't like the colors the defaults are using. Moreover, the naming convention? What plans have they after "Zippy Zebra?" And really? Are they intentionally copying famous comic books where the first letter of the first and last names have to be the same? (You know, like Peter Parker, Bruce Banner and all that?)

But you will notice I make no TECHNICAL complaints about Ubuntu... (well, there is one... apparently the way they set up their Avahi daemon doesn't work well with my SME DNS server... turn that off and it works fine.) That is mostly because I don't have any.

As far as the response of Shuttleworth? He's right on all counts. I completely agree with his responses. If any one distro helps make Linux a household word, it's Ubuntu. It's slick. It's polished. It seems to perform well everywhere I have seen it. And it is especially true about the source for information for the most solutions. It is the Ubuntu forums... good for me that I don't have much trouble translating from Ubuntu to Fedora. In some extremely important ways, Ubuntu is a huge contributor.

If Linux is being taken more seriously by the various industries out there, you can thank Ubuntu for a big part of it.

Re:I'm a Redhat/CentOS/Fedora user (3, Funny)

dangitman (862676) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582184)

Are they intentionally copying famous comic books where the first letter of the first and last names have to be the same? (You know, like Peter Parker, Bruce Banner and all that?)

Yeah, because as we all know, comic books invented alliteration. It was a completely original idea of the comic book writers, and certainly not something that is so commonplace there's a word for it in the dictionary.

any legit crticis? (1, Troll)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582174)

Almost all of the vocal critics of Ubunutu I've seen have been trolls, FUDsters, and other worthless people. Has anyone raised serious legitimate criticism of Ubuntu?

Ubuntu is good but... (2, Interesting)

Spy Handler (822350) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582176)

what's up with doing things their own way, instead of the standard way? On every other apache distribution I've seen httpd.conf is the main config file, but not on Ubuntu... it's apache2.conf. I had to look that up. Ubuntu is full of things like this.

Mind you, their way works, and Ubuntu has great support and lively community and so on... but why do they insist on being different?

Re:Ubuntu is good but... (2, Insightful)

xthor (625227) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582342)

on Ubuntu... it's apache2.conf.

It's been quite a while since I was an admin in a Debian shop, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is in Debian. Which makes sense, since Ubuntu is based on Debian, right? I guess I'm sayin' it's not hard to say "the standard way" and mean "the way I'm used to doing things." I prefer Fedora since I use CentOS/RedHat on all my servers, but I don't know if their way is "the standard way" or if that's just how they do things.

Re:Ubuntu is good but... (1)

wiredlogic (135348) | more than 3 years ago | (#33582418)

That's the way it is in Debian which is why Ubuntu is doing it too. The reason is because they're using the modular configs for Apache2 and are making that explicitly clear.

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