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DX11 Coming To Linux (But Not XP)

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the speaking-directly-to-you dept.

Graphics 370

gr8_phk writes "As reported over at Phoronix, the Direct X 11 API now has an open source implementation on top of Gallium3d which should ease porting of games to Linux with or without Wine. While still in its infancy, you can see where this is heading. All this while Microsoft hasn't offered DX11 for their own aging WindowsXP. Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

cancel ×

370 comments

At Long Last (4, Funny)

TitusC3v5 (608284) | more than 3 years ago | (#33652982)

Microsoft has finally give us some cheese for our wine is not an emulator is not an emulator is not an emulator is not ...

Re:At Long Last (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653076)

Why is a pickled cucumber called a pickle, while a pickled pepper is called a pickled pepper?

Re:At Long Last (1)

SQLGuru (980662) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653484)

Pickled okra? Pickled eggs? Pickled Pigs Feet?

Re:At Long Last (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653598)

and a pickled brisket is called "corned beef", when it's never even seen maize?

Re:At Long Last (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653940)

Because otherwise you wouldn't eat it if you saw where she kept her cucumbers.

Gre (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33652984)

The world is upside down.

Response to rampant speculation (4, Funny)

Tetsujin (103070) | more than 3 years ago | (#33652992)

"Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

Yes. It seems very likely to me that an open-source implementation of a Microsoft API, and implementation "in its infancy", will soon surpass Microsoft's own offering.

I mean, if you're comparing DX11 support on Linux to DX11 support on XP - well, some support is better than none, right? So, OK, sure.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (5, Insightful)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653146)

"Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?" Actually Linux could soon support Microsoft's latest API better than XP. That's possible. But not better than Microsoft. That's like saying Linux has always supported DX9 better than Microsoft itself because it wasn't present in Windows 3.1 (and neither in 3.11).

Re:Response to rampant speculation (4, Insightful)

Fulg (138866) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653232)

Yes. It seems very likely to me that an open-source implementation of a Microsoft API, and implementation "in its infancy", will soon surpass Microsoft's own offering.

I was about to post the same thing. The summary is amazingly hasty in its conclusion... I mean, WINE has been at it for what, 10 years? They still don't have it working as well as the original. Not dissing WINE, but I mean, implementing the entry points of a published API is easy. Making it do the correct things under the hood is the hard part...

That being said, I can certainly applaud the effort, but this should be news once it's working otherwise it's meaningless.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (4, Insightful)

armanox (826486) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653280)

I'd say WINE has done quite nicely. Remember when WINE emulated Win 3.11? WINE's biggest problem is that it will forever be playing catch up.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (1)

Fulg (138866) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653476)

Oh, I certainly agree, WINE is quite an achievement. My point was that it's much too soon to celebrate an open-source DX11 implementation because they haven't started doing the hard part yet; look at how long it took WINE to get accelerated DX9 to a "mostly working (with limitations)" state...

Re:Response to rampant speculation (1)

jkxx (739331) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653270)

Yes, as wine often runs games better than linux itself, or to phrase it differently, windows exe's through wine have a better chance of running properly than native binaries, at least on linux. Unfortunately the game makers themselves are unlikely to consider Linux given its small user base, so even if this happens it will benefit Linux or dual-boot users only.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (3, Insightful)

Gadget_Guy (627405) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653474)

I had a quick look at the system requirements for this project, and it said: "The following are required for DRI-based hardware acceleration with Mesa...Linux 2.6.28." This version was released nearly two years after Vista. I don't think that it can be said to support DirectX better than Microsoft when it can't run on a version that dates back to XP days.

Now I think that it is great that they are doing this project, but saying it supports the API better than Microsoft only distracts from the developer's achievements.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653688)

And if it's treated like other Linux software and actually open source, then one of the devs may even be nice enough to port out a win32 build. (In other words it will become available to XP. But will probably require a registry hack or some other trick to get around arbitrary software version obstructions.) Obviously there wont be one at the start, but given enough time - OS diversification happens more often than not.

Re:Response to rampant speculation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653820)

"Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

I'm a *nix guy, but that line is stupid. XP is from 2001. The Linux kernel then was 2.4, and early versions at that.

When the 2.4 kernel gets DX11 support, then that comment will make sense.

Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Interesting)

mark-t (151149) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653016)

Because I can't help but think that this may be some sort of scheme to put OpenGL out of the picture....

I'm generally not one to presume conspiracy right off the bat, but there's something about this that just doesn't quite seem on the up-and-up, IMO.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

yincrash (854885) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653068)

make sure you have your tin foil hat for the coming opengl-pocalypse

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Interesting)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653114)

Except this isn't being done my MS. Like it or not, modern game companies are using Direct X more and more. OpenGL is already out of the picture, for the most part. With people like John Carmack now even coding in Direct X, it makes sense to try to get a solution for Linux.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (5, Informative)

ChienAndalu (1293930) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653168)

This is what the developer wrote in the commit message [freedesktop.org] :

Thanks to a very clean and well-though design done from scratch,
the Direct3D 10/11 APIs are vastly better than OpenGL and can be
supported with orders of magnitude less code and development time,
as you can see by comparing the lines of code of this commit and
those in the existing Mesa OpenGL implementation.

As somebody who only has little OpenGL coding experience I can't really comment on this.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

MoogMan (442253) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653478)

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to implement this into the driver, considering no windows code can interface with it.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to just implement this at the Wine layer?

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653606)

No, because this will help to convince producers to port games (not having to use OpenGL is a big bonus), and this is not a layer "on top" but a proper tracker for Gallium, meaning it'll have much better performance than any proxy Wine could implement.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653664)

You're a moron.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (2, Interesting)

Bobakitoo (1814374) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653672)

In the Wine layer, Direct3D is only a warper to user-space opengl. This will allow Direct3D call, from Wine or otherwise, to talk in the most direct manner to the hardware. I doubt anyone will use Direct3D natively on Linux, except for the Wine developpers. Which already got all the missing DirectX parts that make Direct3D useful...

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653544)

I only have a little GL experience myself, but I can tell you that the DX10 API is *vastly* better. Basically it takes all the OO pieces of GL like which is what modern GL code uses anyway (VBO's, FBO's etc) and throws out the requirement for you to have to deal with the very non-OO GL state machine. It's like the difference between C and Forth in that you no longer have to manage the stack of states yourself. Architecturally speaking, OpenGL's shaders are kind of weak (it basically requires the GLSL compiler as part of the driver) but in real-world terms it's pretty much a wash.

That said, OpenGL has a far superior extension system where DX has bupkus, which lets OpenGL keep pace and sometimes set the pace. Someone seems to have lit a fire under Kronos, because OpenGL is iterating very fast (I'd even say too fast!) these days. But in API terms, it's still way behind.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653722)

Read the comment carefully, he mentions D3D10/11 explicitly, not D3D1 to D3D11, because that would result in a similar headache as you have with Mesa, which has to support all the old and new OpenGL versions. Writing programs using the new OpenGL interfaces is pretty straightforward and easy as well. I remember having a lot of fun with OpenGL/ES 2.0, for example, which is more or less the basic 3D library in all newer smartphones, car headunits and so on.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653906)

I saw no sign of it in the commit but hopefully a --disable=MSCrud option will be forthcoming, to make sure that no part of this is built and installed.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Interesting)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653934)

As the developer claimed:

the Direct3D 10/11 APIs are vastly better than OpenGL and can be supported with orders of magnitude less code and development time

I call BULL SHIT. I call it loudly and I call it with a big raspberry. Because: OH REALLY??? ONE HUNDRED or more times more code and development time? Thats what "orders of magnitude" with an "s" means.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Interesting)

mewsenews (251487) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653222)

OpenGL is already out of the picture, for the most part.

OTOH, Macs run OpenGL and are stereotyped as having an affluent user base. Blizzard still releases Mac versions of games. Steam for Mac launched in May. Not really "out of the picture" yet.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653286)

Of course it's not totally out of the picture, but it's definitely taking a back seat. Blizzard and Valve are the anomalies that still recognize a bigger world than Windows. Let's hope they remain committed. I don't want to see OpenGL die at all.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Informative)

EyelessFade (618151) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653492)

And all who make games for Consoles. Remember only Xbox uses DirectX, all the other uses OpenGL or a derivate from it.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653634)

No, the Wii uses Nintendo's in-house graphics API, not OpenGL.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

TheThiefMaster (992038) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653984)

The PS3 has both a slow opengl implementation and a faster native API. Guess which one gets used.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#33654024)

Nobody uses OpenGL (or derivatives) on consoles. Everybody uses low level proprietary libraries specific to particular consoles, except the Xbox which uses DirectX.

OpenGL not just used on PCs (4, Informative)

zooblethorpe (686757) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653680)

It bears noting that various flavors of OpenGL are used on other hardware, such as Sony's various consoles [google.com] or the Wii [google.com] , and it is apparently part of the underlying codebase for the upcoming Nintendo 3DS system [google.com] . So it looks unlikely to die in the near term, at least.

Cheers,

Re:OpenGL not just used on PCs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653972)

Not to mention WebGL.

Re:OpenGL not just used on PCs (1)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#33654038)

Even though OpenGL or OpenGL-like APIs are supposed to be available on those platforms, nobody actually uses them for anything useful.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

Bobakitoo (1814374) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653830)

It all the little Micro-Soft shill studio that are the anomalies of this industrie. They produce many shit games that wont be played by anyone 6 month later. The Blizzard, ID and Valve are the pillars of pc gaming.

The only ones that are using directx are windows and xbox developers, and those are really the same platform. Also where you conting Nintendo and Sony developpers as Direct3d users? The market for Direct3d are limited to the Micro-Soft monopoly. OpenGL is far from been endanged, and certainly not by some direct3d games that wont run on up-to-date systems 5-10 years ahead.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

robmv (855035) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653546)

and PS3, Wii (OpenGL like AP), iPhone and iPad, WebOS, Android ....

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653288)

Yeap that's why ever Wii and PS3 developer now uses Direct X.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653306)

Yeah and look at the lineup on those systems compared to Xbox360...

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653416)

On top of that all the iOS and android devs are all using direct x also.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653512)

Point to me where I said OpenGL was dead. Did I claim that no one was using it? The fact is that mainstream game development is using Direct X more and more. Like how John Carmack wrote the new id graphics engine in Direct X first, and is porting it back to Open GL for other systems. Five years ago, people would have laughed at the idea of Carmack coding in D3D.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (1)

3vi1 (544505) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653714)

>> With people like John Carmack now even coding in Direct X,

Wrong. The ID tech engine isn't tied to DirectX at all. Sure, it has a DirectX9 backend renderer, but it also has an OpenGL renderer.

The DirectX backend was a necessary evil, since MS had announced that Vista wouldn't have OpenGL support, and when they backtracked they made sure the implementation would be sufficiently fragmented as to not compete with their own proprietary (i.e. "lock you into Windows") API.

Re:Does this smack of a hidden agenda to you? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653956)

DirectX 10+ is vastly superior to what is available on Linux for writing apps,

1. Direct3D - OpenGL is OK. It's not the largest problem after all!

2. DirectInput - what is the Linux analogy? Using X.Org shitty API? It's akin to using Windows' WM_KEYPRESS and similar messages to do keyboard interface, except it's even more cryptic. X.Org is OK for desktop apps, like Win32 API is OK for desktop apps, but that's about it.

3. DirectSound - let's not even get started on the horrendous crap ALSA has become. It's a prime example of *over-engineered*, unusable project. Hell, even my headset returns multiple interfaces while in fact it is 2 channels OUT, 1 channel IN. Yet in Alsa it has a shit ton of options that are completely useless, like emulating 7.1 input. WTF??

Here's more proof how crap ALSA is,
      http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/index.html

Even the documentation is a mess. Click on high level control interface and you get a blank page!
    http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/hcontrol.html

Going from a different path (modules => high level interface), thus ignoring the main navigation page gets me a page with NO overview, *nothing*.
    http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/group___h_control.html

ALSA is one of many OSS projects that makes me ashamed of OSS. You look at projects like PostgreSQL that has *clear* and *concise* documentation available,
      http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/index.html
to something like ALSA, and you want to cry. ALSA looks like overengineered project by a 20 year old that simply ignored making any documentation. Winsauce!

DirectX is NOT only about graphics. It's too bad that Linux/XOrg tends to be barely about graphics and almost nothing about the rest.

And I'm speaking as someone that uses Linux 100% of the time.

Support MS APIs better than MS? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653028)

You mean like CIFS as supported by SAMBA...

Sound API is the issue now (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653040)

Graphics are an issue but Sound is the item holding back games for Linux.

If this can include a universal sound API then Microsoft will be in trouble.

Re:Sound API is the issue now (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653094)

It will spawn at least 4 universal APIs that are almost completely but not quite incompatible.

Re:Sound API is the issue now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653096)

DirectX consists of Direct3D / DirectDraw and DirectSound. So a full support would include both sound and video.

Seems sensible enough (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653046)

D3D 10/11 are pure shaders, the API does little more than compile, upload, and bind data to those shaders.

So the only 'trick' is to automatically convert HLSL to GLSL, which again, is pretty straightforward, since concepts and structures should pretty much map up 1:1.

Oh, BTW.. It's not DX11 it's D3D11, DirectX is no longer versioned or packaged as one big 'thing', each component carries it's own version number and release schedule.

Comment: No Computers on TV Show HOUSE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653062)

How come? Where are the computers? Must be unreal then.

Re:Comment: No Computers on TV Show HOUSE (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653692)

Apparently you didn't watch last night's episode.

House, like apparently everyone else on TV/movies, has a macbook.

I don't get it. Does Apple encourage it (giving them away to be used as props) or are these twits just feeding the iHype themselves?

Day I thought I'd never see (1)

DrunkenPenguin (553473) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653074)

This is a day I thought I'd never see. Wow! I started with Suse 5.2 back in 1998 and all those wasted years we dreamt of something like this and it's finally going to happen. World will never be the way it was if this will really happen. Too bad I'm too old now to actually enjoy this, but I will rejoice anyway just to support this. Now I'm a middle aged man, almost 40 years old, not interested to play Max Payne on my Slackware linux-box any more. All those wasted years.

Phoronix (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653078)

So on a scale of 90-100, how many percent of this article is bullshit?

Re:Phoronix (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653164)

100-x where x is the number of linux steam installations

Re:Phoronix (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653258)

LOL no doubt. The sad thing is that even when Valve's VP publicly said "no Linux client in the works", the guys at Phoronix STILL insist it is coming. Apparently 1 sentence, attributed to an anonymous source, and printed on a website in the UK, carries more weight than Valve's own VP making a public comment.

Re:Phoronix (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653584)

Apparently 1 sentence, attributed to an anonymous source, and printed on a website in the UK, carries more weight than Valve's own VP making a public comment.

Possibly. It all depends on which one will get more pageviews. In fact, this is our criteria for all decisions relating to the site.
I hope this clears up any misunderstanding, and that it restores your trust in our exciting, made-up stories.

  Yours, the Phoronix team, formerly editors of the Weekly Worlds News

(P.S. Hey, remember Bat-Boy? A source at Adobe confirms that he's been hired to port Photoshop to Linux!)

(P. P. S. Said source may be a homeless guy living in the parking garage.)

Re:Phoronix (1)

vintagepc (1388833) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653684)

While I"m skeptical we'll see a Linux steam client any time soon, don't forget there WERE legitimate packages and shell scripts on Steam's servers that appeared to be an early alpha-phase client. There are two conclusions here: 1) They tried it and decided to drop the project, hence the VP's statement. or, 2) It's not a priority project and possibly even a test to see how the userbase responds... so while it's not actually in the works, they may be considering it/keeping it secret.

Re:Phoronix (1)

natehoy (1608657) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653316)

I tried to do the math, but kept getting an "out of range" error. Can I increase the upper bound by a couple of orders of magnitude, please?

Re:Phoronix (2, Informative)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653968)

$cd tmp/mesa
$ git pull
$ ls src/gallium/state_trackers/d3d1x/
d3d1xshader docs dxgid3d11 gd3d1x Makefile.inc tools
d3d1xstutil dxgi gd3d10 gd3dapi mstools w32api
d3dapi dxgid3d10 gd3d11 Makefile progs

Only about 11%, it seems.

Pimp my linux. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653086)

Hello sir, I have been told that you enjoy compatibility. I took the liberty of installing a Direct X compatibility layer on top of your WINE compatibility layer. Now you can have a compatible user experience while having a compatible graphical experience.

Wait, did I do that right?

Re:Pimp my linux. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653494)

I humbly request that you not require me to approach you and unseal this tin of whip-arse upon you.

Interesting. (4, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653090)

I'd love this, if it's true, and it performs on par with windows. However, I've learned to take Phoronix hype with a grain of salt. They're gaining reputation for making bold claims based on no facts.

Re:Interesting. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653460)

They're gaining reputation for making bold claims based on no facts.

That is a bold claim, without supporting basis, that scored you +1 Insightful.

I see what you did there.

Re:Interesting. (2, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653490)

Except it's not a bold claim at all, to anyone that has read Phoronix for any amount of time. How's that Linux version of Steam coming along?

No... (or at least, probably not) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653126)

Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?

A: No: I'm willing to assert that any operating system released post-2006 will not surpass Microsoft's own support for DX11.

For operating systems compiled before 2002, I GUARANTEE there aren't any that support DX11, let alone do so "better than Microsoft".

Under the NT6.0 (and newer) kernel, it's virtually certain *nix will not surpass MS' internal support for DX11, unless and until it is itself shuffled off in favour of the next implementation.

-AC

great idea (2, Interesting)

ILuvRamen (1026668) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653148)

If they seriously release some really nice games for Linux that use it, people will be all over this at least as a dual boot system. Gamers love it when they do something that takes their current hardware and makes it way faster without spending any money. Judging by how fast Ubuntu ran on a Pentium 3 I had, I'd say Linux frees up a little ram for gaming. I always thought they'd take off as a gaming platform if they really pushed it because it's free and fast which is always a plus for gaming.

Re:great idea (1)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653266)

Is RAM that relevant to gaming nowadays? Especially given that Linux dosn't free that much memory? Here I run the base system at 120Mb and Win 7 might need 350Mb. But what's 280Mb in a system that's required to have a badass, ultra expensive video card? Surely no one has craving RAM for gaming for a long time.

Re:great idea (2, Insightful)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653342)

RAM is still extremely relevant, it's just that a lot of PC's sold nowadays come with plenty. RAM becomes relevant when you don't have enough. :)

gaemen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653152)

Could it be? Could this mean that Linux will finally have gaems?!?
It doesn't matter to me if they're dev'd by a real studio or not, I'm just sick of everything have the graphics from Quake 3.

Re:gaemen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653276)

No, because the open source video drivers still blow, the sound APIs still suck, the APIs for game input still suck. The dev tools suck. Not to mention why would any big company cater to Linux when pretty much any company who makes Linux ports of games are either dying or dead.

Re:gaemen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653498)

Could this mean that Linux will finally have gaems?!?

In a word: No.

News? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653156)

I thought official support for XP from MS was done or currently being phased out. How is this news? Oh, WAIT! I just whipped up an article detailing how Linux is better at something than Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. Cue the zealots...

Re:News? (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653206)

It is quite amazing the standard MS is held to by people who claim they're a shit company.

Wine (1)

RenHoek (101570) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653192)

Doesn't WINE already have a reasonable Direct X implementation? And with that I mean it's still quite iffy for a lot of games, so it looks like it's pretty hard to get a good implementation done..

Re:Wine (1)

msclrhd (1211086) | more than 3 years ago | (#33654008)

Yes, but only upto DirectX 9. Direct X 10 (and possibly bits of 11 too) are in the works, but it is slow going.

Just having the shader part of DX10/11 is not enough. It interacts with other Windows APIs like HWND (to create windows and process messages), HDC (to do some 2D drawing), Direct2D (for accelerated 2D rendering), DirectWrite (for accelerated text rendering), GDI+ (the XP-era acceleration APIs) and other APIs. Therefore, you need to pull in a lot of Windows APIs and behaviour to get games working properly.

no (1, Troll)

RWarrior(fobw) (448405) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653214)

not better than microsoft. microsoft has merely made a well-announced, long-planned strategic decision to stop supporting XP on new products. this isn't a surprise, and anyone who complains about it needs to stop living in 2001.

In ten years (4, Funny)

Citizen of Earth (569446) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653284)

In ten years, Linux will be a better Windows than Windows.

Re:In ten years (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653760)

It's more like: In ten years, Linux will be better than Vista but that will be at a point when anyone involved will no longer care and those still clinging to Vista for dear life won't be worth saving anyway.

Let's not get too heady over something that is mostly insignificant.

Re:In ten years (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653788)

Extrapolating from past trends trends[0], in ten years, a moldy peach will be a better Windows than Windows.

[0] (yeah yeah, I know... ObXKCD: http://xkcd.com/605/ [xkcd.com] )

An insider view (5, Informative)

DMiax (915735) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653292)

Disregarding for a moment the fact that this was announced a few months ago, here is an explanation [blogspot.com] of what this actually means for developers from a developer of Gallium3D. It explains why there will be no flood of games ported from Windows, and why we should still support a truly open API like OpenGL.

"not XP" (2, Insightful)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653294)

I thought Gallium was mostly cross-platform, so it may be possible to port DX10/11 to XP.

"better than Microsoft itself" (1)

Hierophant7 (962972) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653328)

What a dumb comment. It's not like DX11 is being left out of Win7 and Vista. Why don't you go start a petition to have DX11 support for DOS 6.22?

slashdotted? (1)

russlar (1122455) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653336)

is phoronix slashdotted, or did MS take them down?

2011 is the year of the Linux desktop (2, Funny)

electron sponge (1758814) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653384)

nt

XP is end-of-life (1)

heavyheaded (1905994) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653394)

And there is no EXT4 support in Hardy Heron's stock kernels.

That damn Linux is at it again... (2, Insightful)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653408)

... taking an established technology - embracing, extending, and finally engulfing, and uh... wait a sec. Wha?

Apples to Oranges (1, Insightful)

Wrath0fb0b (302444) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653412)

Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

Not until they backport this project to work with kernel 2.2.19, which was current when XP was released 9 years ago. Failing that, they should at least be honest and compare support among current implementations.

It's one thing for people to chose XP for their recent builds -- more power to them for choosing whatever they like best. But when you deliberately chose a 9 year old OS, you lose the right to complain that you cannot run the latest DirectX in the same fashion that people still on kernel 2.2 (I'm sure there are in-use servers still running that) can complain they cannot run the CFS [slashdot.org] .

Don't get too carried away... (2, Informative)

joelholdsworth (1095165) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653456)

...this probably won't help Wine much. As this post explains http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-September/086885.html [winehq.org] : "IIRC, it's been discussed before, and it simply wouldn't work. D3D has too many ties to the Windows API that a non-Windows based implementation wouldn't be appropriate for Wine (try getting an HDC from a D3D resource, or passing an HWND to D3D). Gallium would have to substitute these for X11 resources, or custom resources that tie into X, so wouldn't reflect the Wine's internal state. Additionally, not all drivers will support Gallium (eg. nVidia binaries), so a D3D10->GL path will still be needed."

Re:Don't get too carried away... (1)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653750)

That is because Display Contexts and Window Handles are part of the GDI paradigm, which DirectX not built on top of. Of course they wouldn't get along, just like passing a Qt widget pointer to a GTK function isn't going to do what you would hope.

Nothing to see here.. move along (4, Informative)

kazade84 (1078337) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653472)

This isn't really that exciting. Firstly it doesn't benefit Wine at all. Wine supports other platforms than Linux and other drivers than Gallium3D and Mesa and so this is useless to them, if that isn't enough the Wine source structure isn't built for this kind of swap out, specifically because Wine limits X interaction to a single DLL, winex11, and the WineD3D stuff doesn't have direct access to X. The Wine D3D developers have long said that a D3D state tracker won't help them.

Secondly, it's not gonna help porting games to Linux either. D3D is only one part of the DX API and a game does a lot more than just draw stuff. Arguably swapping out D3D for OGL is relatively straightforward in comparison to swapping out sound API, file IO API, network IO API, message handling, etc. etc. that's why some games allow you to switch between the graphics API.

Uh...so? (0, Redundant)

nashv (1479253) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653536)

In other news, DirectX 11 is not being offered for MS-DOS,Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11....oh noes - does Microsoft not care about their customers at all?

At some point, backward compatibility doesn't need to go that far back

Interesting. (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653542)

I'd love this, if it's true, and it performs on par with windows. However, I've learned to take Phoronix hype with a grain of salt. They're gaining reputation for making bold claims based on no facts.

With Gallium 3D? (2, Interesting)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653576)

How could Gallium 3D run Direct X 11 in any way that could be comparable to the native Windows client, when it doesn't even do basic 3d acceleration as good as the proprietary blobs?

better? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653620)

What do you mean by "support this better"? I want to bet it will require a fairly recent Linux kernel, not one that's 10+ years old like Windows XP.

Dangerous path for Microsoft (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33653748)

Vista and 7 suck big time. With XP not being updated, Linux might eventually become a better solution for a low-powered desktop and people might stop wanting the crap MS is selling right now. XP was a good product, Vista and 7 are a scam.

Re:Dangerous path for Microsoft (1)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653804)

Frankly, Windows 7 does not suck. And if you think Linux having support for DX11 would make it a better choice for a"low powered desktop", you're nuts, because no low-powered desktop PC could run Direct X 11 games with reasonable performance in the first place... Maybe WIndows 7 sucks for a low-powered desktop, but it really wasn't designed to run on outdated hardware.

A bit off-topic, but... (1)

JohnnyBGod (1088549) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653902)

Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?

On a marginally related note, I've actually had something like this happen to me. I couldn't get Railroad Tycoon 3 running in Vista, and it worked just fine under Wine.

Back on topic: the submitter misspelled "eventually".

To be fair... (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653922)

To say Linux 'may support D3D better than MS' while referencing lack of D3D 10+ on WinXP is a tad disingenuous.

Unless you are saying that the community is going to meaningfully backport full D3D 10/11 to RedHat 7.2 that is (WinXP and RedHat 7.2 came out roughly at the same time). I doubt you'll see this work seriously put to use in anything even as old as Vista with respect to the linux world

XP (1)

rovolo (1695142) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653960)

Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?

When will people stop comparing Linux against Windows XP?

In one word... (0, Redundant)

chrisdotwood (875539) | more than 3 years ago | (#33653980)

No
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