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In France, Hadopi Reporting Begins, With (Only) 10,000 IP Addresses Per Day

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the man-vs-l'etat dept.

Privacy 376

mykos writes with an excerpt from TorrentFreak that says the automated enforcement of France's three-strikes law known as Hadopi is now coming into effect: "The scope of the operation is mind boggling. The copyright holders will start relatively 'slowly' with 10,000 IP-addresses a day, but within weeks this number is expected to go up to 150,000 IP-addresses per day according to official reports. The Internet providers will be tasked with identifying the alleged infringers' names, addresses, emails and phone numbers. If they fail to do so within 8 days they risk a fine of 1,500 euros per day for every unidentified IP-address. To put this into perspective, a United States judge ruled recently that the ISP Time Warner only has to give up 28 IP-addresses a month (1 per day) to copyright holders because of the immense workload the identifications would cause."

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376 comments

Carte blanche (5, Insightful)

fastest fascist (1086001) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685540)

So basically copyright holders in France have free reign to find out who any IP address belonged to. With such volumes of request, there's no way their validity will be questioned in any way. Likely the whole system will soon be automated.

Re:Carte blanche (5, Insightful)

Pikoro (844299) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685562)

In order to fix this, or at least slow it down, the copyright holders should have to pay a fixed amount per IP to offset the cost of the request for the ISP. Let's see them request 150,000 IPs per day when it cost 100 Euros per IP.

Re:Carte blanche (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685798)

In order to fix this, or at least slow it down, the copyright holders should have to pay a fixed amount per IP to offset the cost of the request for the ISP. Let's see them request 150,000 IPs per day when it cost 100 Euros per IP.

That's what some of the ISP are asking for, that the government or the copyright holders compensate them for the cost of the identifications. They only got back a big fat "no way" so far. So, currently, ISP have to comply under 8 days, at their own cost, or pay a fine.

Likely the whole system will soon be automated

Yeah, well, no. The law is so well conceived that it does not specify under which form the ISP have to provide the copyright infringers identification details. So one of them, in a playful manner, sent the first batch of identification details through the mail, on some printed sheets of paper. Good luck to try automating that. :)

Re:Carte blanche (3, Insightful)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685846)

How difficult is it to find out the home addresses of politicians? And, if it's 150000 different IP addresses, does it have to be that many different postal addresses as well?

Re:Carte blanche (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685904)

they should send it in the mail in braille, printed in semaphore, or in written Morse Code/

Re:Carte blanche (4, Insightful)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685590)

Well, at least they started in France.

You may think otherwise but fucking with the general public in France is not a good idea. First cars start to combust spontaneously. Then it's buildings. Before you have time to react, people are having their head separated from the rest of their body.

Re:Carte blanche (4, Insightful)

captainpanic (1173915) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685710)

Well, at least they started in France.

You may think otherwise but fucking with the general public in France is not a good idea. First cars start to combust spontaneously. Then it's buildings. Before you have time to react, people are having their head separated from the rest of their body.

Partially true.
But it's the unions which are strong and actually accomplish something. The unions organize the enormous strikes to protect the rights of the workers.

Those riots where cars get burned are no more than a national sport. They do not accomplish much (some awareness of problems at best). The real French revolution was 221 years ago.

The future will be the most interesting. A kid downloads illegal content... and daddy the freelance software engineer gets shut down. That would be one of the first lawsuits. And I seriously doubt that it will come to riots and strikes. More likely that people will find a technical workaround.

Re:Carte blanche (3, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685850)

Ruin enough people's lives and you will have lots of the wrong sort of people mad at you.

This is how real revolutions begin.

Re:Carte blanche (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685796)

Well, at least they started in France.

You may think otherwise but fucking with the general public in France is not a good idea. First cars start to combust spontaneously. Then it's buildings. Before you have time to react, people are having their head separated from the rest of their body.

Only when you antagonize "youths" of some indeterminate heritage...

Re:Carte blanche (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685950)

the car burning thing is muslims (and they're not doing it because somebody drew a picture of their prophet or because somebody burnt their version of harry potter, they're doing it because they're muslim and they don't need a reason to burn cars or rape women.).

Re:Carte blanche (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685960)

No, things are not as they used to be... Now the French are sheeple, just like you guys. I know, I'm French, I don't burn cars ;-).

Re:Carte blanche (1)

TarMil (1623915) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685964)

Not really. There's general public and general public. And clearly, those who burn cars during protests -- actually, those who protest at all -- are not those who know the dangerousness of such laws. We won't see anyone in the streets to protest against Hadopi anytime soon.

Re:Carte blanche (2, Interesting)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685646)

If they've automated the process* then you can bet a lot of 'secret' requests will be made, too. Who's visiting which websites? Who's on the other end of an instant messenger? Who's reading which tweets?

[*] Let's face it, it's not going to be clerks reading printouts...

Re:Carte blanche (3, Funny)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685742)

No, no, no. That could never happen in Europe. European governments have infinite respect for privacy.

Re:Carte blanche (4, Insightful)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685874)

Actually, most of the european governments would like to see more and stricter privacy laws (I'm not talking UK here, they're an island). The problem is in this case that the EU-Central-Government seems pretty hard influenced by lobbies of all kind. Additionally there are negotiations behind closed doors with the industry about this.

I'm not saying that the EU is something bad, hell no, I think it's the first step into the right direction. But we really should drag industry-lobbies out of the parliament and shot them in the streets.

Re:Carte blanche (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686136)

I think it's the first step into the right direction. But we really should drag industry-lobbies out of the parliament and shot them in the streets.

Or, actually shoot them down *in* the Parliament, *then* drag them out onto the streets... ;-)

Re:Carte blanche (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685788)

Is there anything requiring the ISP's to provide the data in machine readable format? Could they collect the info automatically and then export it to something like a low res JPG file before they submit it to the copyright holders? If so that would be an effective way to drive up their costs and 'throttle' the system

Re:Carte blanche (4, Insightful)

fastest fascist (1086001) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685806)

I like your idea, though I prefer an automated telephone system for this. "Please enter your request ID now." With one phone line to cater to all copyright owners, of course.

Re:Carte blanche (1)

schwit1 (797399) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685928)

"I like your idea, though I prefer an automated telephone system for this. "Please enter your request ID now." With one phone line to cater to all copyright owners, of course."

and send the results via snail mail ... postage due.

Re:Carte blanche (3, Informative)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686000)

"Likely the whole system will soon be automated."
Australia is dreaming of that too. Show ID to get an ISP account, a fed or state task force clicks on any Australian ip and the data links back in real time.
".... the AFP [Australian Federal Police] told the briefing that it wanted to automate the process of requesting and obtaining access to telecommunications data."
http://www.zdnet.com.au/inside-australia-s-data-retention-proposal-339303862.htm [zdnet.com.au]
France may want the same instant system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenchelon [wikipedia.org] in the courts :)

Re:Carte blanche (5, Informative)

AwaxSlashdot (600672) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686054)

So basically copyright holders in France have free reign to find out who any IP address belonged to.

Technically, copyright holders don't know who the IP belongs to. They provide a list of IP to HADOPI, a state run service. HADOPI request the IDs and execute the 3 strikes process (e-mail, snail-mail, disconnection).

With such volumes of request, there's no way their validity will be questioned in any way.

Everything have been crafted that way. There are application notes from the gov discouraging the justice to run additional investigation and proceed to the disconnection solely from the "proofs" provided by copyright holders.

Likely the whole system will soon be automated.

Currently, there is one little glitch : the connection between ISP and HADOPI has not been formally defined. Gov does not want to draft it because the ISP will have the right to define the fees they'll ask to process this id request.

So one ISP sent back the identification printed on paper since the format the id should be sent is not specifically defined.

Wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685542)

I wouldn't have thought they can do this even without signing ACTA.

Typical (4, Funny)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685548)

To put this into perspective, a United States judge ruled recently that the ISP Time Warner only has to give up 28 IP-addresses a month (1 per day) to copyright holders because of the immense workload the identifications would cause

So? The ISPs will have to hire more staff to cope with the demand. This is an excellent way to create new jobs and get people back to work and help the economy recover faster.

But no, you only look at the downside :P

Re:Typical (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685574)

Heh, almost missed your sarcasm.

Re:Typical (1)

AnonGCB (1398517) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685644)

Yes, the extra workload that doesn't bring in any extra money. Good luck with that theory.

Re:Typical (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685666)

> The ISPs will have to hire more staff to cope with the demand.

Wouldn't it be simpler for the government to hire people to go around vandalizing property, thereby creating work for tradesmen? That should help mollify the unions while providing employment to young men from the suburbs doing something they enjoy. Break enough windows and soon the economy will be booming (and they can blame all the damage on the Roma!)

Realistically though... (2, Insightful)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685752)

It's not the ISPs who'll suffer - they can automate the process - it's the court system.

I'd love to see 150,000 court cases brought every day, all for downloading a couple of mp3s but the sad fact is that most cases won't go much further than sending a letter or two.

Re:Realistically though... (1)

durrr (1316311) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685862)

They'll bake them together in batches of one million unsoved requests, and do the court run once a month
1mil * 1500 *30 = €45 billion.

Now if anyone here doesn't realize the law was written entirely by copyrigth interest groups then just look at that number again, no on bothers to throw around fantasy sums like that except for the US goverment or the entertainment copyright lobby.

Re:Realistically though... (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685922)

Court? Why would they bother involving a court? This is a rule bought by or for big media, they don't want to have to spend money on lawyers.

No, there will be no courts involved. Three strikes and you're just SOL.

Re:Realistically though... (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686022)

According to one of the comments in TorrentFreak, one ISP (presumably called "Free") started sending the data on identified ISPs in paper.

I really hope French people stand against this.

Re:Typical (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686094)

Personally I block my whole country on my download machine since the early days, so if somebody gets my IP it will be collected on foreign soil and not so easily acceptable in our justice, not to mention that that country's local **AA might not give a shit.

But anyway, if I get a warning, I _will_ switch to a different ISP, on principle. That will add to the cost for the ISPs, if enough people do it, they will complain.

Then I'll rent a server in Tonga or Burundi and do my downloading there and tunnel to it to download my stuff.

I will alert my ISP to the fact that I have an open AP on purpose so that it's on record when I challenge the warning in court. I encourage everybody to do the same, Justice isn't able to handle real crimes within the legal time limits, a couple of thousand additional challenges a day will help a lot to worsen that.

So what happens to IP addresses outside France? (2, Interesting)

assemblerex (1275164) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685566)

If 10% resolve to a proxy server in Korea, then what? Someone in france running a proxy server is about to get a shitload of mail.

Re:So what happens to IP addresses outside France? (3, Informative)

Xest (935314) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685668)

They'll just target IPs or hostnames assigned to French ISPs and ditch foreign IPs, that's really all they need to do to solve that problem.

Re:So what happens to IP addresses outside France? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685772)

And you trust them to have thought this through that far? (Not that that takes a lot of thought, but still...)

Re:So what happens to IP addresses outside France? (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685744)

It won't. It is trivial to find out which ISP owns a particular IP - all allocations are public. Once you've identified an IP owned by a French ISP, then you can ask them to identify the customer.

Oh, and before everyone starts being glad that this is in France so it doesn't affect them, they might like to check the open source programs on their hard drive. Most of you will find at least one project that uses bandwidth and equipment provided by free.fr.

Re:So what happens to IP addresses outside France? (2, Interesting)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685902)

Just substitute Sarkozy address for these foreign servers. O, and if they object that it's always the same address, also add his family and close friends...

Let the show begin! (1)

zrbyte (1666979) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685570)

Wonder how many false accusations will result from this operation. This ought to be interesting to watch.

Re:Let the show begin! (1)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685942)

We'll never know. If they really throw 150k IPs per day at the ISPs, no one will know if they really did something or not. No way to check that amount.

So it's basically boiling down to: "You give us everything we want, or we'll sue your ass of". And that "what we want" can be the IPs of heavy-uploaders from Madonnas new single, or guys listening to music at Jamendo.com .

Re:Let the show begin! (4, Interesting)

schon (31600) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686004)

Wonder how many false accusations will result from this operation.

LOTS. Considering how trivial it is to forge an IP address on a peer to peer network [p2pnet.net], and how simple it is to find which IP addresses are french [ipinfodb.com], they are one 4chan meme away from the whole country going dark.

If someone has the IP addresses of the French parliament members, that would be a good place to start, IMHO.

Erm (5, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685578)

And are the *copyright holders* tasked with identifying the same amount of copyright material, verifying it (which would presumably involve downloading a substantial proportion of it themselves, otherwise it's just hearsay - "Yes, your honour, I saw this IP address connect to this tracker asking for this file. Even though it's called "Aliens" I can't tell you the content because it *obvious* that it must be the Hollywood film of the same name"), its original IP address, the copyright holder (i.e. if they find infringing material that isn't under *their* copyright, are they obliged to notify the authorities and/or the person whose copyright it is? Surely otherwise they are deliberately ignoring a crime? That could get interesting).

It's one of those laws that'll be in fashion and then in a year's time the copyright holders will all be complaining that it's insufficient and not effective and too much work for them and they'll give up on it. Hopefully they *have* bitten off more than they could chew and ISP's therefore have to employ dozens of staff, double their broadband prices etc. to keep up and that'll provide a pretty clear economic oversight to those implementing that law and, most importantly, putting some of that burden on the ISP's.

And all for a letter dropping through the door where people reply saying "It wasn't me, my son visited/dog did it/wireless was hacked/computer caught a virus/etc." and you have to go to court to try to prove it eventually anyway (cutting off your broadband for alleged but unproven infringements sounds a pretty good way to waste the courts time too, and they take much less kindly to that).

Re:Erm (1)

umghhh (965931) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685828)

cut access means no money paid I can imagine? Could this mean that false accusations which are inevitable will cause ISPs to fight against this law due to lost business??? OTOH the way it works in Germany right now is that the whole burden of the proof is on the accused site with lawyers of the might recording industry being able to chose friendly courts all over the country thus increasing their own chances and costs for the opponents. I wonder where this ends?

Re:Erm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685930)

No money paid ? Who are you kidding here ?
You get your connection cut, you have to pay for it, and your name is in a national file so that you can't get another access.

Well, that's the theory, at least.

Re:Erm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685836)

Err, "Aliens" doesn't exists in France, it's called "Alien: le Retour" (Alien: The Return) :)

Re:Erm (3, Interesting)

Antity-H (535635) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685852)

Well unfortunately you don't get off the hook simply by saying that it wasn't you, you have to prove it wasn't you and if you do, you still get fined because you neglected the security of your network installation.

To "help" people with securing their network, the french government issued a 200+ pages specification for a software that would secure your computer and prevent it from being used to downlaod illegal content.

The specification requires the program to be one the best malware ever created, able to disrupt anti virus and anti spyware so it's not removed by error, hidden so the process can't be killed by the user, so the program can't be uninstalled, logs in both a crypted and an unencrypted files all network actions of the machine, etc etc

Basically the best spyware ever. This is on the market for a contractor to realize. Oh and obviously people will have to buy it to comply with the network security requirements.

I cant' wait for the first lawsuits.

Re:Erm (1)

HungryHobo (1314109) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685976)

The scarier posibility is that it might half work and other governments will go the same way.
I can imagine that malware being written and [not forced but if you want to not get sued you have to install it for liability reasons.... and once most people are using it the remainder can be forced on the basis of "if you have nothing to hide"] pushed onto machines.

Right to read anyone?
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html [gnu.org]

That software sounds like pretty much what he described.

Re:Erm (5, Insightful)

radish (98371) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686130)

Here's an idea. Create a whole bunch of ~700mb video files - content is unimportant as long as you filmed it yourself. Name them things like "Aliens.mp4" and "Terminator.mp4" and add a license screen at the beginning indicating that these movies are free for anyone to distribute or copy provided they do not work for and are not associated with the major film studios or any of their agents - you're the copyright holder so you can make up whatever terms you want. Now torrent all these, wait for the enforcers to download them for verification, and hadopi their asses :)

That's Everyone (2, Interesting)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685584)

I call BS on the 1-per-day thing for Time Warner - you're seriously telling me that your IP addresses are given out by computers, to routers with unique MAC addresses which you use for billing / service tier purposes, and you can't automate a process that matches a given DHCP lease to a given customer? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Re:That's Everyone (1)

nate_in_ME (1281156) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685682)

I think the catch is that it would be easy for Time Warner to automate checking for who has a particular IP address right now. However, depending on how frequently they change IP addresses(do they change every time the modem requests a DHCP renewal, or on some other interval?), the problem lies in figuring out who had that IP at a particular point in the past. The historical information as far as who had what IP might not even be logged. Also, with TW in particular(and probably other companies as well), because a large part of their growth has been acquisitions of other companies, not all the systems are fully tied together. Because of this, a request may take some time to get routed from whatever office it was sent to the actual office that has the information needed.

Re:That's Everyone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685686)

Sure, unless there is some burden on the ISP to verify the claim as mentioned above. That at least has so have someone view the content to prove it was copyrighted (and illegally obtained).

ISP should be able to charge an admin fee for each ip, much like data protection officers can when they receive a request in the UK

Re:That's Everyone (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685712)

Maybe they actually do something reasonable like download the file themselves to make sure that the accused is actually breaking copyright. As someone pointed out just above, a torrent named "Aliens" could be anything. There's probably paperwork (and hopefully a nice fee too) to be done too to allow someone's address to be given out.

Re:That's Everyone (4, Informative)

pehrs (690959) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685778)

Okay, I will bite.

Kalle is 00:23:6c:8a:75:26
Oscar is 00:21:b7:24:52:18

Sep 22 17:04:08 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPREQUEST for 192.168.0.74 from 00:23:6c:8a:75:26 via re0
Sep 22 17:04:09 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPACK on 192.168.0.74 to 00:23:6c:8a:75:26 via re0
Sep 22 22:29:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPRELEASE of 192.168.0.74 from 00:23:6c:8a:75:26 via re0 (found)
Sep 22 22:29:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPRELEASE of 192.168.0.74 from 00:23:6c:8a:75:26 via re0 (found)
Sep 22 22:29:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: Released lease for IP address 192.168.0.74
Sep 22 22:30:18 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPDISCOVER from 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0
Sep 22 22:30:18 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPOFFER on 192.168.0.74 to 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0
Sep 22 22:30:20 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPREQUEST for 192.168.0.74 from 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0
Sep 22 22:30:20 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPACK on 192.168.0.74 to 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0
Sep 22 22:34:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPRELEASE of 192.168.0.74 from 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0 (found)
Sep 22 22:34:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: DHCPRELEASE of 192.168.0.74 from 00:21:b7:24:52:18 via re0 (found)
Sep 22 22:34:37 husky dhcpd[2673]: Released lease for IP address 192.168.0.74

Given this data, please tell me which user had 192.168.0.74 at Sep 22 22:30...

Finding out how the switching fabric in a large network is configured at a point in time is a non-trivial problem. To this you should add that you don't know the precision of clocks involved, nor do you know if one of your users suddenly changed their MAC address. Possible you can log MAC address-port allocation, but even this is a very crude tool, as you have to match this logging information against your DHCP logs and then make sure that nobody was cheating the system by hard configuring an IP so it wasn't handed out by DHCP (remember: dumb switches are common in the last mile!)

I don't envy anybody having to build such a system that can stand up to any scrutiny.

Re:That's Everyone (2, Interesting)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686062)

It will depend on your total configuration.

My previous ISP seemed to work that way indeed: just do a DHCP request through the cable modem, and I got my IP and was connected. This was a semi-fixed IP address, for months on end I would get the same address, so should be pretty easy for them to match an IP address to an actual connection, and with that subscriber. Basically until there was some network maintenance.

My current ISP I have to do PPPoE - that means send them un/pw combination to get an IP (but interestingly I can get at least two outside IPs on one connection) and Internet connection. Depending on their logging it should be much easier to determine which user an IP belongs to at a certain time. Even though my IP changes all the time.

Re:That's Everyone (2, Interesting)

irix (22687) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686126)

DHCP option 82 will contain the MAC address of the cable modem as inserted by the CMTS. This is checked before IP address allocation is done, and is verified by the DHCP server (this is how they identify subscribers).

The DHCP servers will be synced with NTP.

I'm not saying it will stand up to "any scrutiny" but most cable operators are already putting this information in to a reporting database and can query who had what IP address and when with a one-line SQL statement. They may have to preserve this data longer that they are now. In your example assuming the DHCP client is well behaving (not always) then the IP address will be given up by the client on RELEASE. The issue is that most clients never RELEASE an IP address - the server ends up timing it out, and you hope the client plays nice. This is why most DHCP servers are handing out IP addresses in a least-recently-used manner so that you reduce the likelihood of conflicts and also the likelihood of an IP address being handed out again right after it was used like in your example.

Anyway, it isn't an exact science, but my guess is that in 99%+ of the cases they know exactly who was using an IP address and when and can automate the retrieval.
 

Re:That's Everyone (1)

infalliable (1239578) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685794)

It's 1 per day for copyright holders (specifically the USCG on behalf of a copyright holder). They process many more for law enforcement which eats up time and is significantly more important.

I'm sure they were also worried about person X coming and demanding 100 immediate lookups for copyright issues, then person A, then person B coming and doing the same. It's also likely the system is not centralized and the ISP has near zero business incentive to comply.

Since it's for a subpeona, they really need to manually verify it as well. The cost for getting it wrong is quite high from a PR standpoint. It shouldn't be 100% automated.

lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685602)

p2p? aint that the shit that pollutes your harddrive with lame movies and music? i watch my shit online... xD

mission from 'god' turns to deal with the devil? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685606)

or, did we ever really have a 'vote' on anything?

as far as we can tell, there has been no (0) public minded political representation here (US) in more than 20 years, which is as long as we've been watching 'it' (the process). so, in order to to maintain taxation without representation..... they must falsify the already phony #s over&over. phewww. that's how we feel. that's US. many/most of us anyway. it's quite doubtful any invisible/imaginary 'enemy' could out do our own fauxking murder & mayhem system, both at home & around the (now under reported) shaking globe.

they treat us as though we came from monkeys, & they ?didn't?, as evidenced by their tendency to encourage us to do/use less, while they continue to suck DOWn/waste/destroy immeasurable amounts of stuff, & feast on nubile virgins (of both sexes) in their palatial conclaves, surrounded by armies of (infinitely corrupted) hired goons. paid for by.... there we (?monkeys?) go again.

the search (for one honest/selfless person) continues;
google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=weather+manipulation

google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=bush+cheney+wolfowitz+oil+rumsfeld+wmd+blair+obama+weather+authors

modifying this search makes it even more interesting/scary. it's likely just a coincidence that the same names turn up together in 1000's of documents re: murder, mayhem & just generalized felonious underhandedness.

meanwhile (as it may take a while longer to finish wrecking this place); the corepirate nazi illuminati is always hunting that patch of red on almost everyones' neck. if they cannot find yours (greed, fear ego etc...) then you can go starve. that's their (slippery/slimy) 'platform' now. see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

never a better time to consult with/trust in our ?creators?, who may not be what we were forced to (not) believe in. why would descendants of monkeys need to worship anything (except maybe the 400 lb/megaton 'gorilla')? the lights are coming up rapidly all over now. see you there? cup of primordial ooze we are/anyone?

Impressive. (2, Interesting)

Xest (935314) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685634)

Or in other words, by this time next year, the media cartel with have lookup tables of every single consumer IP address owner in France, because for a population of 62 million, many of whom aren't online, or share an IP, that's all it'll take at the given rate.

Worse, because it'll be so costly for ISPs, they'll have more incentive to just assign a static IP per subscriber and create lookup tables themselves. Effectively this is the end of any amount of online privacy in France, if you connect to the net their, before long your IP and your name, phone number, home address, and e-mail address will be easily matched- what're the chances of such lookup tables staying secure and private indefinitely?

Something is going to go seriously wrong with this system one way or another, it's either going to kill off ISPs, or it's going to suffer torential backlash and be revoked, or in perhaps the worst case, it's going to make the online population of France the biggest target of tracking, identity theft, and scams in history.

Media cartel don't get the ID (3, Informative)

AwaxSlashdot (600672) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685804)

They provide the IP to an intermediary state run service (named HADOPI). This service requests the ID and send the warnings and ask to close the connection at the 3rd occurence.

So media cartel don't get the final user iD.

Re:Impressive. (1)

Even on Slashdot FOE (1870208) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685814)

Or maybe it will go Just As Planned and France will have to deal with the fact that privacy in their country is dead.

It's not like rich people can't simply buy a law that makes identity theft the victims fault, right?

Re:Impressive. (1)

Antity-H (535635) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686036)

At least free.fr already assigns a static IP for each of its "freebox" and an associated IPV6 /64 subnet. SFR/Neuf uses dynamic addresses for the moment no idea for the others.

However the news reports here say that at least one of the ISPs doesn't like to be asked about its clients. Since it must comply and provide the information because of the law it did so by printing the info to paper and sending the paper over.

Re:Impressive. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686106)

anyway, most ISPs are just using static IP anyway (on DSL which is just the way people connect nowadays, while people are tearing the streets for FTTH); with one major exception, Orange, which is generally a PITA to work with anyway)

I wonder (too lazy to look up the CCTP) how they deal with IPv6 addresses though (they do deal with IPv6). Free does ipv6, with a /64 per subscriber...

A trivial problem (1, Interesting)

bjourne (1034822) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685636)

The technology already exists for the ISP to resolve an IP address to a specific customer. How else would they be able to disable your access if you stop paying your internet bills? Blaming it on the technology being to hard and to costly is just weak. Whether it is a good idea to have private companies divulge private information about their customers to other private companies without going through the judicial process or not, is a different question altogether.

Re:A trivial problem (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685756)

The technology already exists for the ISP to resolve an IP address to a specific customer. How else would they be able to disable your access if you stop paying your internet bills?

I think it's more likely they identify their customers by their phone number, and they assign an IP address after they verify that they're a current paying customer. Broadband IP addresses are often assigned via DHCP and so will be fairly random. They would have to check their DHCP logs to tell which customer was using which IP at which time.

Re:A trivial problem (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685800)

ISPs often run massively complicated networks, sometimes from different companies they've bought over time. Knowing who was using an IP address at any given point in the last month is a very difficult thing to achieve, especially over complicated networks of different systems.

Re:A trivial problem (3, Informative)

Dan Dankleton (1898312) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685802)

For ADSL and similar services, cutting people off is generally* done by account name on the authentication server rather than IP address. Customers' IP addresses can change on a regular basis; their account name never does. Otherwise access is disabled by disabling the port which the customer connects to. It would be quite rare to disable access by blocking their IP.

* For "generally" read "always"

Re:A trivial problem (1)

zwei2stein (782480) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685872)

Another service that needs to be developed, integrated, maintained and admined, have hw to run on? It gives ISP nothing except possiblity of loosing customer.

It is expensive. It can look like you can hack something like that overnight, but that is quite naive.

Hell, if it only cost 1$ it is still too expensive for ISP when net benefit is zero.

Re:A trivial problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685926)

Well, there you go!
If you're the ISP's customer your mutual contract probably allows for disabling access for a number of reasons. One of them could be court orders or some judicial resolution, sure. But I seriously doubt that they can do it to comply with some blanket decision by - as you rightly point out - another private entity with no law enforcement rights (if they have them, something is terribly wrong).
And if you give these rights to copyright holders, why not extend them to anyone?
Can I register for copyright on some stupid thing I made and then go about doing this and collecting cheques from ISPs? Sounds like a pension plan, to me!

Pirate Party (3, Insightful)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685672)

THIS is why I'm voting Pirate Party next time around.

I believe P2P is only hurting sales a few percent at most and this reaction is way out of proportion.

3.5 years until everybody in France is offline (5, Insightful)

Eivind Eklund (5161) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685678)

There's 62277432 people in France, using the world bank 2008 estimate (See a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+france").

We generously assume that they have one Internet connection each.

With 150000 IP addresses warned every day, that's 50,000 people cut off every day (assuming the volume keeps up).

At that rate, it takes 1246 days to cut off everybody, which is fairly precisely 3.5 years.

Eivind.

Re:3.5 years until everybody in France is offline (1)

am 2k (217885) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686098)

At that rate, it takes 1246 days to cut off everybody, which is fairly precisely 3.5 years.

Not if the ISPs preempt that by crumbling and dying off like flies. Then it'll happen faster.

I'm glad this is happening somewhere other than my country first. If I'd be French, I'd look for some work that doesn't require any internet connection right now. Maybe McDonalds is hiring...

Perspective (4, Insightful)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685702)

Ok, the US example isn't really putting anything into perspective. Here's a better way to do that.

France has a population of 60 million. If 150k letters are sent every day, then we get: 60,000,000 / 150,000 = 400. The entire population of France can be canvassed with Hadopi notices in a little more than a year.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité and all that bullshit are far behind them now.

Re:Perspective (4, Informative)

Ecuador (740021) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685912)

Liberté, égalité, fraternité and all that bullshit are far behind them now.

You are overreacting, it's still there...

liberté - Copyright holders are free to get the IP's of everyone.
égalité - Notice "everyone" from above. Soon the entire citizen base of France will be equally harassed by copyright holders.
fraternité - Well, I am sure there will be more chance for the millions of harassed citizens to come together and share their woes in a brotherly fashion.

France, country of copyright thieves? (4, Insightful)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685714)

The copyright holders will start relatively 'slowly' with 10,000 IP-addresses a day, but within weeks this number is expected to go up to 150,000 IP-addresses per day according to official reports.

150,000 names per day for a whole year is nearly 55 million names. Will the entertainment industry just skip on the rigmarole and simply do a class-action suit against the totality of the french population?

Re:France, country of copyright thieves? (1)

Spad (470073) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685984)

Well, it's between 18 & 55 million names - it's a 3 strikes law after all so not every request will be a new name.

Re:France, country of copyright thieves? (3, Interesting)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#33686140)

No you see it wrong.

They need three strikes to disconnect a subscriber. Say on average three people sharing a connection (a typical household size, won't be much off for France), and assume every household has an Internet connection (that's a sure over-estimation of course), that makes just over 20 mln subscribers in France.

Now say all of them are involved in the regular illegal sharing of copyrighted material (another overestimation).

Three strikes means some 60 mln notices.

150k per (working) day, some 250 working days in a year, that means within two years time the complete ISP subscriber base has been warned three times and has been reported to the courts for further action.

So by the end of 2012, the complete French economy comes to a halt. The court system is fully overloaded, an dall ISPs are filing for bankruptcy for lack of any subscribers.

Now that would be fun.

After the Romani people.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685716)

The second hit of the sarko-na-zy regime.. welcome to égalité, liberté et fraternité..

Dear companies, (2, Interesting)

nkh (750837) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685784)

Dear SACEM [sacem.fr] and record companies selling stuff in France,

Because of the HADOPI law and the way you treated your potential customers for the past years, because of the fact that I have to pay a "copyright" tax on every blank media I buy, and because I've been offered a guitar [gibson.com], I'm pissed off to the point I'll do something tangible in my life.

TV has already been replaced mostly by books, tabletop games, and a few YouTube videos every other week. As for music, I'm learning the guitar, I don't need you anymore, I won't give you my money anymore, it's over, I'll make my own music and entertain my family by myself.

Also, fuck you...

Re:Dear companies, (2, Informative)

takev (214836) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685920)

Please don't forget to pay for the right to entertain your family with your music, it is very likely (actually mathematically certain) that you infringe on part (one beat of musical passage is enough these days) of a copyrighted song.

Re:Dear companies, (1)

nkh (750837) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685982)

This is the part that makes me cringe. Music theory is mostly chords and scales glued together, a bit like software patents. I can't believe that copyright can still be used up to 70 years after an author's death.

Re:Dear companies, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686144)

...because I've been offered a guitar [gibson.com], I'm pissed off to the point I'll do something tangible in my life.

Just a slight edit: Drop the line above and use this snippet below.
<snip>
I'm pissed off to the point I'll do something tangible with my life, so i have bought a pair of leather pants and a CASIO keyboard.
</snip>

That will really fuck them.

20 Years (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685792)

I'd say the French have to step it up a bit if they really want to fully protect all copyrighted stuff on the net. At 10,000 IP addresses per day it will take almost 20 years to make the population of ~60m all pay. I mean, even if people aren't actively torrenting, odds are that they have a desktop wallpaper that they don't have rights for, or saved a pic they found on reddit or some other site, plus I'm sure there has to be some copyrighted material in their browser cache (because most people don't really clear those that often). After all, fair use means you can fairly use it if you pay the man, right. //sarcasm
 

ISPs will love this (2, Informative)

Ogive17 (691899) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685830)

ISPs will enjoy their sales dropping by 30% after a year due to this law and people getting their internet disconnected. Not only that, they have to provide the information that will result in the lost sales.

Muuhhhaaaaaahahahaha !!!! France is OWNED !! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685840)

France knows how to do it to it jack ! You are all so fucking busted ! Next comes Canada ! Once winter hits they can't run and hide like the vermin Canadians are ! And I don't mean ONLY the fucking french canadanauans ! Scared are you ? Damn right, suckas ! We gonna git you !

One of the ISPs is having fun (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685856)

"Free" (name of a french ISP) is sending the informations via paper mail, one sheet per request, to slow down the whole process.

On related news, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33685876)

the number of french I2P and Freenet nodes seem to be growing every day.

Thanks HADOPI :3~

the untied states (sic) (2, Funny)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685882)

had an early lead in internet douchebaggery, but in recent times the antipodean aussies made a stunning breakthrough in online dirtbag status. but its nice that the latest reigning champions of sleazy network manipulation has come to roost with the eurotrash

Dear French voters (3, Insightful)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#33685986)

You signed up for a filthy corrupt fascist regime. This is the shit that comes with it. Enjoy.

US Judge is an idiot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686082)

Time warner only had to provide 28 a day due to the immense amount of work?

LOL. Time Warner sure snowed him. This is what it takes for them to find the info:

1) Get IP Address, date/time
2) Look up on DHCP server servicing that address for MAC address matching the IP. Verify that the lease for that IP was correct for the date/time in question. If not, check DHCP logs.
3) Use MAC address in billing system to search. The Cablemodems are identified in the system by it's MAC address - that's how they can do remote resets and push configs to them. They also have an internal-only IP address assigned to each cablemodem - also searchable based on MAC address in the billing system.
4) Get account info.

At best, would take a couple of mins per IP. At worst, a couple of hours (if needing to search through DHCP logs.

Man, that judge was a tard.

My neighbor is toast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33686096)

Well, at least until he unplugs my free WiFi :(.

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