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French ISP Refuses To Send Out Infringement Notices

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the finest-bureaucratic-tradition dept.

Businesses 302

An anonymous reader writes "Last month it was clear that French ISPs were not at all happy about the whole three strikes Hadopi process in France. Now that the 'notice' process has started, with Hadopi sending out notices to 10,000 people per day, it's hit a bit of a stumbling block. The French ISP named 'Free' has apparently figured out a bit of a loophole that allows it to not send out notices and protect its subscribers. Specifically, the law requires ISPs to reveal user info to Hadopi, but it does not require them to alert their users. But, the law does say that only users who are alerted by their ISP can be taken to court to be disconnected. In other words, even if Free is handing over user info, so long as it doesn't alert its users (which the law does not mandate), then those users cannot be kicked off the internet via Hadopi."

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302 comments

Where are the parents? (3, Interesting)

kthreadd (1558445) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833448)

Now how is the system supposed to work if one party apparently cheats, didn't think of that huh!

Re:Where are the parents? (1)

bhcompy (1877290) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833482)

You cheat, too. Which is what this ISP is doing. Oh wait, that's not what you meant?

Re:Where are the parents? (2, Interesting)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833672)

If French courts are anything like courts in the rest of the world, the "spirit" of the law will apply. Meaning, the spirit of the law is clear and unambiguous. Such a loophole is in violation of the spirit of the law. Chances are, assuming a reasonably sane court/judge, they will simply tell them to comply with the law and supply the information in question. At which point, failure to comply will result in their arrest followed by whatever penalties apply for violation of the law.

Basically - yawn!

Re:Where are the parents? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833704)

If French courts are anything like courts in the rest of the world, the "spirit" of the law will apply.

You're not american I hope. The country that allows for endless copyright duration by continuously extending the deadline before anything as small as a mouse falls into public domain even though the spirit of copyright law in the US is to mandate the exact opposite of what is going on?

And why is that? Because the LETTER of the law requires a finite duration - it just doesn't care what that duration is or if it's obviously being gamed with endless extensions. (the loophole)

Re:Where are the parents? (5, Interesting)

evilandi (2800) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833714)

I'm guessing you've not visited France much.

Farmers and fishermen use loopholes in the law to block entire interstates or major ferry ports for weeks on end.

There is a deep and wide cultural history of using legal loopholes to embellish protest.

Re:Where are the parents? (0, Troll)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833724)

for weeks on end.

If my point was not legitimate, the would stop them indefinitely. Since the duration is so short, it seems to imply my take on things is completely accurate.

Again - yawn!

Re:Where are the parents? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833816)

If my point was not legitimate, the would stop them indefinitely.

They stopped them until they got what they wanted. Sheesh man, do you ever admit to being wrong?

Re:Where are the parents? (-1, Troll)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833846)

They stopped them until they got what they wanted. Sheesh man, do you ever admit to being wrong?

That wasn't stated and can certainly not be implied. Shesh man, do you ever admit to being wrong? You seem to be arguing there is no law or the law is completely powerless in France.

Re:Where are the parents? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833888)

That wasn't stated and can certainly not be implied. Shesh man, do you ever admit to being wrong? You seem to be arguing there is no law or the law is completely powerless in France.

There is law of course its just the laws that have loopholes attached render those particular laws useless.

Re:Where are the parents? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833910)

Why would they stop them indefinitely ?
The goal is not to lose their job, it's to get something from the executives.

Maybe you should stop yawning, get out of your bed and see how the real world works.

Re:Where are the parents? (1)

AGMW (594303) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833744)

I'm guessing you've not visited France much.

Farmers and fishermen use loopholes in the law to block entire interstates or major ferry ports for weeks on end.

I'm sure it won't be long before they start blockading the Channel ports and burning lorries full of British sheep, at least that's what usually happens!

Re:Where are the parents? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833870)

Technically, you don't even need legal loopholes to block the whole national traffic for a strike. And yes, this is rather frequent and annoying. As a matter of fact, a national strike is programmed for next tuesday, and may well last several days.

Re:Where are the parents? (2, Interesting)

nospam007 (722110) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833764)

But how will they send them notice?
The only thing allowed in court is a postal letter sent with a card where the recepient signs for the reception.
It costs a fortune and if nobody opens the door and/or goes to the post-office to get the letter, you'll have to send a 'huissier' which will have to serve them personally, and who will have the same problems serving the letter.
Who will pay for this?

As to the emailing, my ISP for example doesn't have any of my email addresses, how would they email me?

Re:Where are the parents? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833812)

They could send the notification on a burning sheep nest pas?

Re:Where are the parents? (1)

findoutmoretoday (1475299) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833918)

<quote><p>If French courts are anything like courts in the rest of the world, the "spirit" of the law will apply. ....</p><p>Basically - yawn!</p></quote>

Patents: If the US courts are anything ... etc.

My guess is that in Common Law, the law becomes 'clear and unambiguous' by precedence (the spirit of the law),  where outside the Commonwealth and the like, a law could stand more by itself. Anyway it is a new law, the spirit is the text of the lawmakers not what a judge thinks to see in it.

Re:Where are the parents? (5, Informative)

arivanov (12034) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833934)

Rezt of ze world means USA and UK, no?

Most of the "rest of the world" relative to the aforementioned precedent culprits including France uses the napoleonic law system. This system mandates a strict separation of legislative, judicial and administrative powers. In that system the letter of the law is followed strictly and the courts do not go on inventive sentencing and precedent creation spree which practically replaces functions of the legislative branch. Similarly, the parliament cannot suspend, amend, correct and violate fundamental rights the way the UK does on a casual basis under the pretext that "the parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound". And so on.

The law will be returned to parliament, amended and "normal service" will resume shortly. However prior to that the courts will not "replace the pariliament" and engage in "inventive sentencing" the way they do in the UK and the USA.

It is actually more "common sense" than USA and UK because it does not feed endless litigation and appeals of anything regardless how small all the way to the supreme court. It makes the law "stick".

But the users can still be sued? (4, Interesting)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833450)

I'm not sure this is a real win. If the user info is turned over, they can still be sued.

Maybe they don't lose internet ability, but the core problem is still intact.

Re:But the users can still be sued? (4, Insightful)

Spad (470073) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833570)

At 10,000+ notices per day it's simply not practical to sue everyone, which was kind of the point behind this law in the first place; to make it cheaper and easier for rights holders to get people without having to do any of those annoying things like gather evidence.

Re:But the users can still be sued? (2, Interesting)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833612)

French investigative judges can learn from
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/us-anti-p2p-law-firms-sue-more-in-2010-than-riaa-ever-did.ars [arstechnica.com]
You will have to turn up and prove you did not download the media in question.
It has quality entrepreneurship too "All aspects of our anti-piracy solution are paid out of the damages that are collected for you" :)

Re:But the users can still be sued? (1)

balaband (1286038) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833852)

They don't need to.

With a couple of major infringement cases, they will try to scare everybody else into submission. Couple of heads will be chopped with ridiculous sums of money, and only question is - who are the (un)lucky winners?

But I do appreciate the effort made by this ISP. I would take my business to them, for this sole reason.

Circumvention via methods such as TOR (1)

catchblue22 (1004569) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833604)

Laws like this are going to push people over to TOR, or Freenet or whatever other new piece of software that guarantees anonymity. The internet pandoras box has been opened for the recording industry. All the king's horses and all the king's men won't fix this.

Re:Circumvention via methods such as TOR (5, Informative)

zproc (1917806) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833656)

Some people here in france began using anonymous VPN connections like iPredator or Relakks.

Re:Circumvention via methods such as TOR (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833664)

Laws like this are going to push people over to TOR, or Freenet or whatever other new piece of software that guarantees anonymity. The internet pandoras box has been opened for the recording industry. All the king's horses and all the king's men won't fix this.

IPredator [ipredator.se] works better than I expected. I thought it would be slow as molasses running uphill in winter, but not only is the pipe as fast as my own connection, but guess what you find right at the exit point: plenty of other sharers, making it all appear like you had a direct line to your neighbors. Speed is always maxed out when I us it (purely for testing of course).

Posting Anon because I fall under that stupid law mentioned above. Cannot wait for the SACEM (French RIAA) and similar to croak and die in their own vomit.

Re:Circumvention via methods such as TOR (1)

JockTroll (996521) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833668)

This is not the case: TOR is horribly slow, Freenet is horribly slower. Moreover, given that the technical resources at the disposal of the media mob are superior to anything a private individual can ever hope to own, in the end they will win. The fight for a free Internet must be fought in the real world and since the enemy will not listen to reason, it must be forced to reason by force.

Anyone who seeks to profit by sueing P2P users must be targeted for violence. Lawyers may be intimidating in court and from their high rise offices, but stick a knife into them and they bleed and die like anyone else. Send explosive packages to sleazy firms like ACS:Law, kill or maim their employees, destroy their offices and property. Attack them on the streets. Money doesn't avail you when you're surrounded by a gang of masked men with tire irons and a can of gasoline.

What is the return policy on purchased laws? (4, Funny)

mykos (1627575) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833462)

I wonder if France's government has a lemon rule, so if its customers buy a law with a flaw, they can get their money back?

Re:What is the return policy on purchased laws? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833502)

Probably not - but they do have a wonderful historical heritage - time to sharpen the guillotines again and start beheading the politicos.

Re:What is the return policy on purchased laws? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833798)

I wonder if France's government has a lemon rule, so if its customers buy a law with a flaw, they can get their money back?

Can they throw such laws into some bay, like the British colonists did? Would such an event then be called a "Lemon Party"?

10,000 users a day... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833490)

At what percentage of the population breaking a given law does the law become stupid to have around at all?

Re:10,000 users a day... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833568)

Never. That's the point. Have a ton of ridiculous laws _everyone_ breaks and if you want to get rid of someone just get him into prison via some silly law. Always worked that way.

Of course your friends magically don't go to prison even though they do the same thing.

Re:10,000 users a day... (3, Insightful)

Arty2 (1742112) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833584)

If this applied to certain unfortunate african countries, then murder wouldn't be illegal.

Re:10,000 users a day... (4, Insightful)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833586)

I know, seriously.

If 10,000 people *a day* need to be notified that they are breaking the law then it's time to reevaluate who the law is for and why it's there. Not streamline the prosecution/judgement process.

This is ridiculous.

Re:10,000 users a day... (4, Informative)

golden age villain (1607173) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833594)

A quick comment, French news are actually mentioning that only a few hundred people were notified. So at the moment we are far away from the 10000 number that was put forward by the right holders.

Re:10,000 users a day... (2, Insightful)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833644)

Fair enough.

IF it gets to the sorts of magnitudes they're predicting, then point stands. If huge numbers of your citizens are doing it then you need to take a look at the bigger picture for a while and evaluate things.

Your evaluation may come back 'it is good and right to combat this, regardless of popular opinion' or it may not, but blindly going the enforcement route ain't so good. And so you get doomed government initiatives like the war on drugs and the current war on copyright infringement.

Re:10,000 users a day... (3, Insightful)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833786)

IF it gets to the sorts of magnitudes they're predicting, then point stands. If huge numbers of your citizens are doing it then you need to take a look at the bigger picture for a while and evaluate things.

That basically means the only viable solution left is no more digital music - live performances only.

If a majority of the population decided bank robbery was okay, does that mean we should re-evaluate if robbing banks is really a bad thing? Of course not!

People become so crazy, emotional, and flat out insane every time this topic comes up here. Traditionally, pro-pirating trolls moderate any reasonable counter-point so reasonable discussions can never ensure. Hopefully this post will be one of the few exceptions.

Ultimately, copying someone else's IP, to which you have no rights, means someone didn't get paid. Period. And if you copied it, you have assigned some value to it. Period. At best, it means you've inflicted direct financial harm by devaluing of the product in question. If you doubt me, I encourage you to verse yourself in the basics of economics.

No bones about it, if you pirate IP, you absolutely are harming the IP owners. Either that, or *everything* published on economics is wrong. The reasonable, safe bet, is the former rather than the later.

Time and time again the pirate position seems to be, I want it. You can't stop me. Its unlikely I'll be prosecuted. Therefore, I'm entitled to whatever I can take. If you try to stop me, you're a bad person. Hell, look above, someone is openly advocating slaughtering lawyers in one of the threads. When a massive number of people feel entitled to take what isn't theirs, what do you expect is going to happen. Draconian laws are the only likely result. And frankly, you can't really blame them. If you worked and didn't get paid time and time again, you'd be begging for help and relief with the law too.

Re:10,000 users a day... (-1, Troll)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833822)

And the troll moderation has begun...

Since it happens every time, it can only mean they absolutely know that pirating is harmful and that the points I bring to the table are absolutely valid. This means the troll moderators have a very low opinion of themselves and other pirates. Else, why consistently hide their shame?

Entitlement to cause harm to others is always a bad thing. Sadly, that's the pro-pirate platform.

Re:10,000 users a day... (3, Insightful)

PeterBrett (780946) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833854)

Entitlement to cause harm to others is always a bad thing. Sadly, that's the pro-pirate platform.

No, it's not.

Re:10,000 users a day... (1, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833940)

Entitlement to cause harm to others is always a bad thing. Sadly, that's the pro-pirate platform.

Wow, you say shit like that and then you whine that you get moderated as a troll?
What priapistic little solipsist you are.

Re:10,000 users a day... (2, Insightful)

Darfeld (1147131) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833954)

You sir, are an ugly Troll of your own.

You're paranoid speech is enough to get you moded down. You could at least wait for the moderator response to begin your rant, but no, it's better to have it tangle with your anti-piracy talk so that any negative moderation look like a pro-piracy conspiracy. At least to you.
The fact remain that you shoot first. And you're not as cool as Han Solo.

Now, to respond to your anti-piracy speech, your equation 1 download = 1 lose for the PI owner is really oversimplified and to my limited understanding of the economy look completely wrong. And I'm not speeking for my church, as I didn't download anything copyrighted since several years. (Well, except for some manga stuff that I end up buying when they are edited in my country anyway.)

My conviction isn't build upon some personal conviction of what people do when they download illegally copyrighted content. Studies show all and the contrary on this subject. That, at least, is evidence to me that it's not as trivial as you put it.

On a side note, I wonder if it's normal that a PI owner earn money for thing they have done in a long past time and never touch it again since that time. I mean, a sculptor or a painter get paid just once for each of there work. Isn't it a bit unfair? I think the whole system of "artist remuneration" is broken anyway.

Re:10,000 users a day... (3, Informative)

leomekenkamp (566309) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833896)

That basically means the only viable solution left is no more digital music - live performances only.

Nonsense. Quote from [wikipedia.org]

Similar to the announcement that ultimately led to the release of Ghosts I-IV, a post on the band's website in April 2008 read "2 weeks!"[73] On May 5, Nine Inch Nails released The Slip via their website without any advertisement or promotion.[74] The album was made available for download free of charge, protected under the same Creative Commons licence as Ghosts, and has seen individual downloads surpassing 1.4 million.[75] The Slip has since been released on CD as a limited edition set of 250,000.

And you know what? NIN made a profit. Period. Trent Reznor puts almost all his stuff up for download (gratis and with remix license) and you can buy collectors items. He makes a lot of money on the collectors items.

Your argument is wrong, plain and simply wrong.

Re:10,000 users a day... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833922)

"If a majority of the population decided bank robbery was okay, does that mean we should re-evaluate if robbing banks is really a bad thing? Of course not!"

Of course not, you abolish cash!

Re:10,000 users a day... (5, Insightful)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833944)

If a majority of the population decided bank robbery was okay, does that mean we should re-evaluate if robbing banks is really a bad thing? Of course not!

If the majority decides bank robbery is okay, then you should probably investigate why and will likely have to change the way banks opperate.
And if 99% of the population likes to rob banks, then you should probably make robbing banks legal.
The world changes constantly therefore moral values change constantly. Laws should reflect the current moral values of society, not what was once decided many decades ago.

Ultimately, copying someone else's IP, to which you have no rights, means someone didn't get paid. Period.

No, it doesn't.
Many times this WILL be the truth, but you cannot honestly believe that somebody who downloads a dozen movies every week would pay for all those movies if he could not download them.
1 copy != 1 lost sale.

And if you copied it, you have assigned some value to it. Period.

Again, no. For the plain and simple logical reason that "value" is subjective. The person copying may value something at 0$, but that doesn't mean other people will value it similarly.

At best, it means you've inflicted direct financial harm by devaluing of the product in question.

No. A lower valuation does not directly relate to financial harm.

No bones about it, if you pirate IP, you absolutely are harming the IP owners.

No. The net effect may be neutral or even possitive given an increase in popularity. i.e. MS-DOS.

Either that, or *everything* published on economics is wrong.

Not "everything", merely the few highschool economics books that you've been reading.

Economics is far more complex than you describe.

Re:10,000 users a day... (4, Insightful)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833946)

That basically means the only viable solution left is no more digital music - live performances only.

Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music [guardian.co.uk]
Another Study Finds Pirates Buy More Music [paidcontent.co.uk]

If a majority of the population decided bank robbery was okay, does that mean we should re-evaluate if robbing banks is really a bad thing? Of course not!

Ultimately, yes. Either you convince them that they benefit more from not doing so, or you legalize it.

Ultimately, copying someone else's IP, to which you have no rights

Says who? You are you to say what person A should share with person B using their personal property?

, means someone didn't get paid.

Assuming they would get paid in the other case. Which not only isn't certain, in many cases is definitively not true. Especially when that "someone" has been dead for years.

And if you copied it, you have assigned some value to it.

Yes.

At best, it means you've inflicted direct financial harm by devaluing of the product in question. If you doubt me, I encourage you to verse yourself in the basics of economics.

So I have when I resell my stuff instead of destroying it.

No bones about it, if you pirate IP, you absolutely are harming the IP owners. Either that, or *everything* published on economics is wrong. The reasonable, safe bet, is the former rather than the later.

Again, the only harm is the same as when you resell something. Doesn't mean it should be illegal.

Time and time again the pirate position seems to be, I want it. You can't stop me. Its unlikely I'll be prosecuted. Therefore, I'm entitled to whatever I can take. If you try to stop me, you're a bad person.

The position I see is: I bought the CD, I should be allowed to do what I want with my property. Who are you to tell me what I should do with my CD?

When a massive number of people feel entitled to take what isn't theirs, what do you expect is going to happen. Draconian laws are the only likely result. And frankly, you can't really blame them.

iTunes dropped the DRM, sales are up. Clearly draconian measures work better.

If you worked and didn't get paid time and time again

MPAA revenue has been rising every year, so that's clearly not true for movies.
Music artists revenue is also [zeropaid.com] rising [torrentfreak.com] .

The only people losing revenue are the labels. Cry me a river over their outdated business model. We should now ban cars for the poor carriage drivers in the unemployment. Or ban cellphones because of the telegraph companies.

Re:10,000 users a day... (4, Insightful)

mickwd (196449) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833706)

Sometime soon, the government will realise that another way of thinking about cutting off "10,000 pirates a day" is cutting off 10,000 voters a day (and their families).

Seriously, if that 10,000 per day number is anything near to being accurate, there's going to be a political shitstorm about this. Just think of the tens of thousands of adult voters who will think of themselves as having been branded as criminals (not to mention losing their internet access) because of something they didn't realise their kids were doing.

I suspect this is going to backfire hugely against Sarkozy and the party that brought in this legislation. If it does, expect other politicians in other countries to take note.

In the long term, if this proves to be a disastrous legislation, it could warn other countries off trying anything similar.

Re:10,000 users a day... (1)

Issarlk (1429361) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833936)

It's just in time for the upcoming presidential election in 2012 too!

I really hope they aim for 100000 a day soon. Let's see in the election results if there are more artists in France than downloaders.

Re:10,000 users a day... (1)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833654)

What if it's the same 10,000 people they notify every day? Didn't think about that, did ya, smart guy?

Re:10,000 users a day... (4, Informative)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833686)

Then Hadopi will last a total of three days, the internets will be clean, honest and law abding, and France will once again become the world's foremost content-producing powerhouse.

ROFLMAO.

Re:10,000 users a day... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833782)

While this law is stupid, and in this case, that argument is sound, using that sort of mentality isn't safe.

10,000 people a day, hell, significantly more than that, are robbed a day... in real life. Should we ignore those robbers?
What about all those people who are abused every day? That probably has another 2 zeros on the end in fact, if not another 3.

A lot higher than that (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833838)

We probably want to keep domestic violence illegal, even though it is very common in some places. (IE: Some 20% of families)

You don't have to put yourself out of business (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833492)

I don't see how any ISP can afford to lose 10,000 subscribers a month let alone a a week? With 10,000 notices being sent out per day this is a real possibility.

No ISP can be held responsible for refusing to put itself out of business.

Re:You don't have to put yourself out of business (3, Informative)

zproc (1917806) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833830)

Actually with this law, if you get disconnected, let's say for 6 months (add that to a fine), you still continue to pay for the service to the providers.

Re:You don't have to put yourself out of business (1)

zoidran (1632151) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833942)

True. And you can still make VoIP calls and watch DSL TV channels during that period. The actual length of the disconnection (during which you cannot use the set top box as a TCP/IP router) is supposed to be "only" one month. You can also be fined up to 1500 euro, though. Given the typical ADSL subscription costs 30 euro a month, the fine is quite a big deal.

It's France, prepare for more surrender. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833504)

I think people have overlooked France's take on intellectual property. They only care so far as domestic brands (eg Louis Vuitton, Hermes) being counterfeited, and those are the only cases they win in their own courts. Outside of France, those brands lose all the time. We'll probably see a follow up within a month of this "loophole" being corrected, but only for domestic content, while foreign content to do their own damn work.

Hell yewah (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833526)

America... F**k yeah!

Civil Law (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833534)

Ahhh, you have to love the civil law system.

Probably couldn't get away with it in the common law cluster fuck system of the states.

they only send 100 notices this first time (5, Interesting)

zproc (1917806) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833542)

Hadopi's required / they say they need to send 25 000 notices per day I believe, but actually send 100 for this time. Also, "Free" handed the IPs on paper instead of providing the data digitally like every other provider. And yes another provider urged the governement to act to make "Free" comply as they sensed "Free" was gaining a little bit more popularity with this trick.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (4, Informative)

dargaud (518470) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833682)

Free has often been of the right side of the tracks as a provider: they allowed VOIP at a time when others banned it; they give you static IPs if you ask; they were the first to do TV over ADSL, etc... I'm glad to see them show some spine here, even if it's only to get them some new customers, and even if it won't last.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (1)

damaki (997243) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833790)

On the right side? You know they make heavy use of traffic shaping, don't you? Bittorrent, newsgroups and sslv3 stuff are severely affected.
So long for the right side...

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (2, Informative)

Movi (1005625) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833848)

I'm enjoying Free since i moved to France about 3 months ago, and i don't see any traffic shaping relating to Usenet or SSL, both which i use extensively. The only time i see the link go slower is when i turn on the Freebox HD, or pick up the phone, but that's to be expected.

If it wasn't for shitty outsourced customer support (i have to run to a forum where the *actual* employees post - ADUF, only then stuff gets fixed) and the shitstorm that is connecting lines with France Telecom, I'd say the package is great - nice hardware, native IPv6, pretty cheap. Tho i still prefer my Cable from UPC back in Poland.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (5, Interesting)

Cinder6 (894572) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833690)

They should take it one step further than paper: run the user info through a CAPTCHA generator so that it can't simply be scanned. Claim something about security to justify it.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (3, Funny)

Sique (173459) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833906)

They did already, they send the notices handwritten.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (1)

Don_dumb (927108) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833712)

And yes another provider urged the governement to act to make "Free" comply as they sensed "Free" was gaining a little bit more popularity with this trick.

That's modern business, get the government to help you rather than doing the obvious thing of doing the same thing yourself.

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (3, Insightful)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833716)

They should have printed the paper on rolls and given it to their customers to wipe their ass with before they sent it over to the RIAA

Re:they only send 100 notices this first time (2, Insightful)

thijsh (910751) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833796)

And yes another provider urged the governement to act to make "Free" comply as they sensed "Free" was gaining a little bit more popularity with this trick.

Yes! That is exactly what other providers need to realize... but instead of asking the government to fight the other provider, they should fight this draconian law.

I can just hear the lawyers now... (1)

bradrum (1639141) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833552)

I can already the hear the American lawyers for the RIAA, in perfect distributed unison, asking their big boobed secretaries for the telephone access code for France.

Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

MatthiasF (1853064) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833572)

Alright, so Free says THEY don't have to send the notices. Fine, so Hadopi has to send the email. Big deal, the customer's email address was probably in the data Free handed over.

But then there's this:

“The thing is, the HADOPI and most ISPs decided it was more convenient and secure to use the ISPs’ SMTP [mail] servers [for sending out warnings],” explained Guillaume.

“But ‘Free’ did not agree to Hadopi using its SMTP servers without a signed agreement, which apparently was refused, probably because they required payment or other forms of compensations.”

So, Free is literally refusing to relay the emails via SMTP from Hadopi? Somethings not right with Free's reasoning here. How else do you send an email to the user (as required by the law) without using the ISP's SMTP servers? And since when do ISPs charge others for the right to email their customers?

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833606)

It's not refusing to relay, it's refusing to send. Hadopi doesn't want to setup an SMTP server, and asks the ISP to send the letter themself.

Free is refusing to do so because there is no compensation for the whole thing, including the identification. It cannot refuse to send the info because of the law, but to send the notification, the law REQUIRES that an agreement was made. An agreement hadopi is refusing to do.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (2, Informative)

zproc (1917806) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833642)

And the funny thing is that the governement acted on impulse and told the press they'll make another decree/law to punish ISPs who don't cooperate... but failed to act upon that decree/law requiring an agreement for the compensation of the ISPs.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

koreaman (835838) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833746)

Even if the 10,000 number is valid, sending 10,000 e-mails a day works out to about seven per minute.

I know Europe is having some economic issues right now, but I'd be pretty surprised if the French government couldn't find in their resources the ability to set up the infrastructure to send one e-mail every 8 or 9 seconds.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833964)

You should read about the website france.fr, how much it cost, how much it failed under the load, how much it was delayed.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

zproc (1917806) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833608)

I'm not sure about the SMTP servers, I believe they use the ones of the ISPs from what I recall reading in the french net press. Tho the first email received by someone has been dissected and they used an adress @ "hadopi.com" as sender, so I'm not sure... Anyway Hadopi has everything to send the emails themselves if they want, yes...

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

karavelov (863935) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833646)

Nothing could stop Free.fr from blackhole-ing emails comming from hadopi servers or from @hadopi.com senders - this is how SPAM filtering works.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

pacinpm (631330) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833618)

So, Free is literally refusing to relay the emails via SMTP from Hadopi? Somethings not right with Free's reasoning here. How else do you send an email to the user (as required by the law) without using the ISP's SMTP servers? And since when do ISPs charge others for the right to email their customers?

Hadopi asked for what can be called "mass mailing". They asked Free to collect user information and inform users at the same time. What Free did is collect user information (probably name and street address). It's Hadopi's job to find users' email addresses now and than mail them.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833622)

My take on that would be that they were not allowed to use them directly, not that they would refuse to receive or relay... in a sensible world. But you may be right.

OTOH, when you say -

"How else do you send an email to the user (as required by the law) without using the ISP's SMTP servers"

I think that's rather the point, isn't it? They are not obligated to deliver anything are they? I'm sure they do spam filtering and various other things like that, so they can decide what to send to the user and what not to, legally, I would think.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833648)

Hadopi do not want the hassle to handle itself a server for sending 10 000 messages a day (they could easily subcontract it, I think, 10 000 is nothing for companies sending blue pills ads...). So they ask for ISPs to send them themselves. (originating on ISP servers). A problem told by Free is that it may infringe privacy laws to do this without a document stating exactly who does what, and Hadopi do not want. Note that this problem was raised in parliament by opponents, but was dismissed by the government.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833794)

10000 a day is nothing for any company. It averages 7 emails per minute.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

Hope Thelps (322083) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833650)

Alright, so Free says THEY don't have to send the notices. Fine, so Hadopi has to send the email. Big deal, the customer's email address was probably in the data Free handed over.

I think you're misunderstanding.

"But, the law does say that only users who are alerted by their ISP can be taken to court to be disconnected."

They can't be disconnected unless alerted by their ISP. Hadopi alerting them does not move that process forwards. Users potentially can be sued of course based on the info provided but the whole point of this process is supposed to be to enable action against them based on accusation without all the inconvenience of a trial (whatever happened to the European Convention on Human Rights anyway?).

“But ‘Free’ did not agree to Hadopi using its SMTP servers without a signed agreement, which apparently was refused, probably because they required payment or other forms of compensations.”

So, Free is literally refusing to relay the emails via SMTP from Hadopi?

When they talk about using the ISP's SMTP server I think they mean that Hadopi get to send emails as if the originator is the ISP, not that the ISP will relay it like any normal piece of traffic. If so then it's hardly surprising that someone's refused (but hard to imagine why anyone at all would have agreed to it).

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

aaribaud (585182) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833898)

Pay attention too, to the fact that what the users are alerted about is *not* that they are counterfeiting works; it is that they have not secured their connection. And there lies the bigger rub: how exactly are users supposed to secure their access? The plain answer is that they can't, short of terminating said access. In practice, they can't avoid someone breaking in their DSL box Wifi (or any Wifi); so the law basically amounts to "shut your Wifi down, and so much for all those wireless gadgets". In practice, they can't ensure that their wired computer (or printer, or NAS) isn't compromised; so the law basically amounts to "don't use that". But the law does not define how one should secure an access; this was deferred the definition to a decree which is still to come -- and will not solve the question when it comes, I wager.
That's the basic flaw, both in the law and its application by the Hadopi: the law defined the new offence ("not securing one's access") by indirect indication at most; and the Hadopi notices, which provide *no* details on the exact facts, amount to "you have done something bad, but we won't tell you what".
I expect it won't take long before someone receives a notice and challenges it to court on the basis, at least, that the law imposes obligations which cannot be met.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833864)

Crime Analogy:

The police know that a criminal has shopped at this particular Wal-Mart store in the past few hours. They want security to review all the tapes and give a play-by-play of their exact movements and purchases. They want it to be hand-delivered by the person who normally does the security, to the state police headquarters 300 miles away by midnight tonight.

Re:Free's logic doesn't make any sense (1)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833950)

“But ‘Free’ did not agree to Hadopi using its SMTP servers without a signed agreement, which apparently was refused, probably because they required payment or other forms of compensations.”

Probably, due to the high expected volumes of mails coming from this single address, they would have needed to update their spamfilters to whitelist Hadopi. And understandably, they asked for a signed agreement that Hadopi would not be abusing their trust. And of course, the administrative effort would need to be compensated.

So, Free is literally refusing to relay the emails via SMTP from Hadopi?

No, they were just refusing to give them special treatment without assurance that such privileges wouldn't be abused.

Somethings not right with Free's reasoning here.

what exactly would not be right?

How else do you send an email to the user (as required by the law)

In many jurisdictions, there is a law that expects people to have their chimneys serviced in regular intervals, in order to avoid soot buildup and fire hazards. The existence of this law does not mean that you can just grab a chimney sweep, and force him to do the work for you free of charge...

without using the ISP's SMTP servers?

Free would be the access provider. Although free does offer email along with access, many of their customers have also email accounts elsewhere. Makes sense, because you want to be free to change access providers without having to tell all your friends that your e-mail address changed again. So just use these alternate addresses.

And since when do ISPs charge others for the right to email their customers?

Since yesterday :-) It's Free's servers, they can charge whatever they damn please.

Droit de suite (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833600)

Watch as the loophole is plugged faster than you can say DRM. If there's anything particular about the French, it's their unholy draconian copyright law. For example, there's no first-sale doctrine in France. They have the exact opposite: Copyright owners are expected to be paid every time a work changes owners. I am not aware of how often it's actually claimed, but I do know it's in the law.

Re:Droit de suite (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833652)

yah but do they ever enforce anything? unless it's for the nazi's?

Re:Droit re muite (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833688)

DRM DRM DRM

Re:Droit de suite (1)

Sique (173459) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833968)

There are no "Copyright owners" in France, there are only the original Authors. Everyone else is just a licensee of the authors, even if he might be an exclusive one.

People should learn from History (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833630)

I don't understand why the citizens of the French Republic don't overthrow their government and behead their leaders.

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!
Viv'la France!

Re:People should learn from History (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833752)

They have surrendered?

HERE'S A NOVEL IDEA: DON'T FUCKING STEAL !! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833698)

Then you have no hadopi to occupy your worries.

Re:HERE'S A NOVEL IDEA: DON'T FUCKING STEAL !! (1)

VoidCrow (836595) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833806)

Allez ici monsieur, vos chevres sont sur le pont. Voulez-vous Durex?

Re:HERE'S A NOVEL IDEA: DON'T FUCKING STEAL !! (2)

dch24 (904899) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833856)

In case you don't speak French, I'll point out a few choice words you really need to know to appreciate this post:

les chèvres, noun: goats. Yes, that kind of goat.

le pont, noun: deck

Durex [lmgtfy.com]

Re:HERE'S A NOVEL IDEA: DON'T FUCKING STEAL !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833952)

>les chèvres, noun: goats. Yes, that kind of goat.

goat cex?

Free are cool... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833802)

Free is my isp in france, and I have to say they have a real clue about things at times. The router/voip/tv box they supply works brilliant and is well thought out, they allow proper reverse dns on static ip's, and its easy to get a fixed ip from them with no blocked ports. The only time theyre let down is by the quality of the psu on the modem and the 1st line support. They also run various mirror sites for FLOSS projects, gentoo etc so it makes my life a lot quicker and easier.
Ive always strongly got the impression theyve got some serious unix geeks on staff who actually get a say in what happens.

So, given they technically get it, I am not at all surprised to hear they have a handle on the whole hadopi bullshit and are looking for ways to make life awkward for the people trying to implement it.

Re:Free are cool... (1)

Movi (1005625) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833872)

Pretty much same opinion here - once it works it's great, but once something breaks - oh the bullshit you have to muddle thru. Not speaking French adds another level of complexity. Thankfully the Free.fr employees on Aduf are very helpfull :)

Thanks Free ! (1)

rrey (1886420) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833814)

I'm happy to read this news, I liked Free before it, I like it even more now. Let's hope it will make the whole hadopi crap even more irrealistic ...

I have forgiven the french now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33833866)

I hereby forgive the french for trying to run me over while I was visiting france. Now I know that it is legal since the driver did not alert me before the attempted vehicular homicide. Score one for the goodguys. I say the US should now allow French fries back into the us since the freedom fries don't taste as good since there knocked off in china.

With centralized rights and wrongs... (1)

ChipMonk (711367) | more than 3 years ago | (#33833930)

comes the centralized focus of power for those who would declare themselves our moral superiors.

Of course, thanks to their self-overestimation, they make a major botch of the job.
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